e1_griego

Very low means your front roll center is underground which means the car handles meh at best, esp with bouncy pbm coils and goofy geometry.

Any car can go drive backroads competently, pretty much. That's why these threads go so screwball. It's my overused phrase, but "limited frame of reference" makes everyone an expert.

Rear bar preferences depend on the rest of the car setup and what you're actually doing with the car.

Tires are still the most important factor, though.

Trinidrift3

and this is why my post count is low. because i try to give useful info on my experiences, and everyone and there mom wants to correct me on what they think they know about my car

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Future240

We don't have to worry about the thread getting screwed up. I can delete post at will lol. Plus we can have discussion, he posted his setup and his exp and you gave it a more technical explanation(which I really appreciate btw).

That is kind of what I want for this thread, almost like an entry into suspension geomerty before they dive into the other thread which at this point is can be like advance calculus to some.

I am hoping Def comes in here eventually to drop some knowledge too.....

Since we are own the topic how does one deal with the roll center and bump steer issue, without modifying arms? Is that something someone can "tune" out with an alignment?

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e1_griego

Whatever you say.

I take the susp/handling side of 240s more seriously than most (and I've driven a 1st gen set of PBMs and they were awful). I have spent a lot of time and money making an objectively good handling car (despite everyone telling me 240s are only good at drifting) and that's what I try to share in these threads.

Nissanroadracing.com is the place to go learn about how to build a proper handling 240. It's all very well documented.

edit: roll center is fixed by ride height. If you want to be low, then you need drop spindles (or some sort of custom flca/spacer setup). Bumpsteer is a different issue, and that usually involves shimming the tie rod pickup up or down and then using a bumpsteer gauge to track toe change through the travel of the susp (at the extreme). Roll center I would worry about (or don't dump your car) but bumpsteer is less of a problem.

Future240

And I appreciate that. I don't particularly care for drifting myself. Not for it or against it. NRR is a great resource yes, I guess this is an attempt to get some of that info to zilvia. We have shit tons of thread of drifting but very little on building a great handling car that isn't a race car.

I figured I'd keep the discussion going delete stuff that is not helpful or along the lines of (I rode XX type of coil and it was great!!!).

I just hope you don't get tired of posting haha

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e1_griego

It's a simple formula.

1) good shocks
2) good tires
3) not stupid low ride height
4) an alignment

mechanicalmoron

A sway bar effectively increases your spring rate (on that one side) while cornering. It does nothing if both sides are evenly loaded. It combines a portion of the inside (of the car in relation to the turn) spring's force with the outside spring.


But that aside, since drifters don't want it to properly "dig in", and drifters tend to call the shots with 240s, I'd assume that his sway bar set will have a heavier rear one than is necessary, F/R grip requires softer rear suspension, to let it move fluidly with the front, considering how much less weight it has to compress it. Many people don't like ANY rear sway bar.

I mantain that the first thing he needs to do is put it at stock height, and play with it like that. that and fix his bumpstop issue, be it by coilover adjustment or new coilovers or struts/springs or however....

e1_griego

Yeah I know what a sway bar does

heychris

The really funny thing is though....That to properly control a car in competition (regardless of specialty), the hot suspension setups are going to be eerily similar...

You guys are right about NRR...reading some of the suspension info there is crazy informative, especially in a few of the autox builds...

@ e1. ..A question regarding sway bar..specifically end links...My s14 is lowered, not excessively, on OEM swaybar endlinks...I've always read that one should connect the bars with suspension at static ride height (and it should be easy)..This is not the case with my ride...The rear in particular is a bitch to mount...Any advice regarding cheap but strong adjustable end links. ..?

@ All... I've forum searched..Posted this in another thread..Does anyone know where I can find concrete info on OEM s14 LCA lengths?

TIA
Ch

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Fuego

I'll share my set-up since I'm still learning and converting..

S13
MCA Blues
NT05 235/40/17f and 255/40/17r
Sways, strut bars, control arms, etc.

I'm thinking -3.5 and -2/2.5 and 0 toe for the alignment.

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I<3BEWBZ

My car seems to handle decently, not bad for a skid car. Here's what I run:

Isis "pro" coilovers
Every isis adjutable arm
s14 flca's
PBM modded knuckles (roll center corrected)
Im not sure on the size but it has some beefy swaybars
front and rear strut bars
17x9.5 front, 17x10 rear.
-4* front 0* rear camber
viscous s13 diff
used to have bfg G forces on it as well.

driftheart

My S14 ,which is my daily driver, has a street inspired setup, but I think it handles pretty well. I can only realistically compare it to my girlfriend's RSX with BuddyClub coilovers,RUCA and Nitto NeoGens(used to have anyway). The steering on it feels way better than mine, I can only guess it's a better firmer front end. I'm not an expert but trying to learn as I go setup wise.

Gen4 Fortune Auto 500 coilovers Front 7k, Rear 6k,clicked to full soft front and back . I am lowered but nowhere near slammed, the back I think is a bit too high actually, I have a raked stance right now. Either I don't notice or something but I don't feel myself bouncing around while driving on the streets.
Whiteline rear subframe bushings.
Rear arms, except for LCA, are SPC arms which have harder rubber bushings than OEM.
Alignment is (F/R): ~ -2°/-1.5° Camber.(F/R): 0.0“/ 1/16” Toe. (Was anyway I need to have it realigned).
Tires are Brigdestone Potenza RE92A, size 205/50/16 (IIRC) on S14 SE wheels.
I have a vlsd which I'm pretty sure is worn out.
Sway bars, well to be honest I think the front one is OEM and I don't think I have a rear.


I wanted to have a firmer and more direct steering feel (closer to the RSX mentioned above), and I keep reading that I should try to stiffen up the front end. I have Battle Version tension rods which I haven't put in yet, I want to get a front strut bar, Nismo Power brace or StealthFab tension rod brace, and fender brace. Those who have better suspension knowledge, like e1_griego, can please comment on improvements or suggestions.



EDIT: The tire model I might have to double check, now I'm not sure if it's that exact model.

mechanicalmoron

However you need to position the arms to mount a sway bar is just fine, there's no bushings of the type that will blow out. I seem to remember I had the easiest time letting my suspension fully droop.

Fuego

Far from an expert here, but I feel confident in saying a wheel/tire change could help your steering feel. 60 is a pretty tall sidewall and you could be getting a fair amount of flex from them.

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PoorMans180SX

So you have stock tension rods up front right now?

Yeah put those tension rods and a StealthFab brace in, and your front suspension/steering will feel lightyears better. Get some urethane or solid steering rack bushings as well.

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Friends don't let friends buy knock-offs.

kOOpA

Came to say tension rods. They will give you the biggest improvement in handling, compared to other arm upgrades, by far. Driving 240s without upgraded tension rods makes me want to throw up, now that I've seen the light XD

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Colorado S14

My $.02 I say go with a front sway bar and leave the rear stock. If you are looking on the cheaper side of things Koni Yellows with good springs. If you want a step up from that go with a custom coilover setup using Koni shocks. Or just buy some KW V3s and call it a day.

Corbic

Good thread. Tagged for later.

e1_griego

Yup yup yup.

If you are looking for more than a street setup I would go with something other than V3s (6k/4k, no camber plates and voided warranty if you add them) but prob the best bolt-on street setup.

Future240

I've seen braces for the fender too. Do those do anything or for show?

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PoorMans180SX

I'm betting they work quite well, but I have no experience with them yet.

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WOOTEN

Ok... So all this chatter; what about things like Tein EDFC? Where you get dampening control?

DJ-of-E

They work, but it's because the reinforcement between cargo body and front fenders are flimsy at best.

I prefer shock tower plates myself as it reinforces the shock tower to the firewall. The fender braces are just 'additional' braces, but felt more like addition reinforcement than adding regitity.

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driftheart

I'm waiting until spring/summer time to get different wheels and better tires.


Yea, stock tensions rods. I'll add steering rack bushings to the list of stuff to get.

zooopreme

What about the EDFC? I mean the only ability you get is you're able to adjust damping remotely. I would go as far as to say it's for people that don't want to get out of their cars to adjust it themselves.

But even then, people think the number of clicks in damping adjustment is what makes a coilover go from "comfortable" to racing. So an EDFC is commonly used like some sort of switch to "dial" in "adjustments" to suit the mood.

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For Sale #1 | For Sale #2

e1_griego

Bad damping is still bad.

I havent ridden or driven any tein stuff that impressed me.

heychris

Agreed.....The only plus I can see to something like the EDFC and similar products would be for a street car (ie: comfort) or for a long distance endurance racer in changing weather, specifically say dry to rain then back where being able to soften the setup for wet conditions would be beneficial. However as e1_griego keeps hammering good dampening is essential to good ride quality.

Ch

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WOOTEN

The number of clicks don't contribute to the stiffness of of the ride?

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e1_griego

The number of clicks don't fix the valving of the shock.

The Dude

If I had it to do over again I would go with a Koni setup over the KWs. I got them for a good price but after I got some decent camber plates/mounts I could have been within a couple hundred bucks of the 8611/8610 setup.
I have 8610s on my Subaru and they are badass for the price.
Oh, and spending $4000 on forged wheels and then slapping on some shitty tires is retarded. So many people here only care about the "cool" factor. I spent as much money on tires as I spent on wheels and would do it again in a heartbeat. My cast wheels haven't shattered into a million pieces as some might suggest.