Mi Beardo es Loco

Well the first $250 billion was on Bush's watch. Barak just followed and one up'd Bush but had more people watching how they spent the money.
It's funny because that first $250,000,000,000 just disappeared. How does that happen? Here's the conversation from Bush to the Banks:
Bush: So you guys want money?
Banks: yes
Bush: You guys are going to pay it back though right?
Banks: of course!!!!
Bush: ok here you go (hands over cash)
Banks: thanks
Bush: So we have to have a timeframe when you have to pay us back the cash and we need sig......
Banks: whoa whoa whoa, what cash?
Bush: The cash I litterally just gave you 10 seconds ago
Banks: I didn't receive any money

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ronmcdon

3 Billion in the grand scheme of things might not be 'too' much.
However, you figure the first Bil ran out betweem 10 days or 2 weeks
(I forget the exact amount, but it was pretty fast)
The second amount of 2 Bill will last how long?
A month maybe?

What I would dread most, is money constantly thrown in to keep this program running.
conservatively speaking, even 2 Bill/month, is going to add to 24 Bill/annual.
for the sake of the environment, I also think the new cars purchased should have had higher mpg ratings.
Theoretically, it was possible to trade in an old Ford F-150 truck for a new F-150.
Limited new car combined mpg ratings to 30 would have been better for the environment (given that was one of the intended objectives of the program).

There's just a shitload of spending right now, between the 1 trillion (that's 1,000 Bill) healthcare plan, going into Afgan, the existing bailout, talks of yet another bailout package in 2 yrs.

Either expect significantly increased taxes, and/or super-high inflation.
Can't say I'm optimistic about how things are going.
Rash spending measures are taken, no matter how you look at it.

ronmcdon

Further reading from Wiki;

Car Allowance Rebate System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Some interesting details.

Although the program officially started on July 1, 2009, the processing of claims did not begin until July 24.[3]

According to estimates of the Department of Transportation, the $1 billion appropriated for the system was exhausted by July 30, 2009, well before the anticipated end date of November 1, 2009, due to very high demand.[4][5][6]

After the first week of the program, the Department of Transportation reported that the average fuel efficiency of trade-ins was 15.8 mpg, compared to 25.4 mpg for the new cars purchased to replaced them, translating to a 61 percent fuel efficiency improvement.

As of August 3 the the top trade-in was the Ford Explorer 4WD[12][13] and the top selling car was the Ford Focus.[1][12] However, according to an independent evaluation carried out by Edmunds, the Ford Escape crossover SUV is the actual best seller while the Ford Focus ranks in second place.

Eligibility criteria
Vehicle must be less than 25 years old on the trade-in date.
Only the purchase or 5 year minimum lease of new vehicles qualify.
Generally, trade-in vehicles must get a weighted combined average rating of 18 or fewer MPG (some very large pickup trucks and cargo vans have different requirements).
Trade-in vehicles must be registered and insured continuously for the full year preceding the trade-in.
Trade-in vehicles must be in driveable condition.
The program runs from July 1, 2009 until Nov 1, 2009 or when the funds are exhausted, whichever comes first.
The program requires the scrapping of the eligible trade-in vehicle and that the dealer disclose to the customer an estimate of the scrap value of the trade-in. The scrap value, however minimal, will be in addition to the rebate, and not in place of the rebate.
The new car bought under the plan must have a suggested retail price of no more than $45,000, and for passenger automobiles, the new vehicle must have a combined fuel economy value of at least 22 miles per gallon. [23]

Credit
Depending on the type of car purchased and "the difference in fuel economy between the purchased vehicle and the trade-in vehicle", the amount of the credit given in the form of vouchers to eligible customers is either $ 3,500 or $4,500.[31] New car dealers will be able to reduce the purchase price by the amount of the voucher for which that the customer is eligible.

Engine disablement and scrappage criteria
To ensure that vehicles traded-in under "Cash For Clunkers" will not be resold by dealers, the program outlines a procedure for destructively disabling the engine (and thus also precluding the possibility that any mechanical engine components might be salvaged to be used in the repair of any other vehicles): The motor oil is drained and replaced with a sodium silicate solution, then the engine is started and run until the solution, becoming glass-like when heated, causes engine internals to abrade and ultimately seize.[32] In addition, the salvage or scrap facility which acquires the vehicle cannot sell any powertrain components from the scrap vehicle. This includes the disabled engine (most specifically the long block components), the transmission/transaxle, and in some cases the axle assemblies. The salvage or scrap facility can sell any other component from the scrap vehicle until they are ready to crush and/or shred the vehicle. The salvage or scrap facility has 180 days to ultimately crush and/or shred the vehicle.

chibo

If my S14 got the 18mpg combined instead of 22 I'd be all over this.

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1989 S13 | 1996 S14 | 2001 E46 | 2009 ZX6R

gripstr

They should have just given the money directly to the tax payers,

I know i would have upgraded and tuned my turbo for more efficiency and better gas mileage

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Future240

My 88 max is on its way to being a real clunker, but the 26/32 I get is good for me. That and I don't want to see it filled with that glass bs, too many memories for me.

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fliprayzin240sx

I would be fucking pissed if they change the criteria later down the road and raise the 18mpg limit. I wonder how many people traded in their Supras and FC/FDs in.

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If you think Zilvia has too many assholes...
CLICK HERE!!!

turbobrick

We've had quite a few nice cars traded in at the dealership I work at. Its a shame we cant buy them and they have to be destroyed.

chibo

Here's hoping that they raise it to 22mpg to include the S14.

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1989 S13 | 1996 S14 | 2001 E46 | 2009 ZX6R

Matej

If this program continues on, I am sure they will start raising the limit eventually. However, it should not be difficult to sell an S14 for the same amount, or even more.

ronmcdon

Well you have to figure the max discount is like $4,500.
I can see a lot of FC's and poor condition FD/Supras being junked.

Most decent condition FD's & Supras w/ under 100k are going for close to 10k.
I think it's going to suck for those of us trying to restore more beat up condition cars.
(uderstandly why SEMA was so upset over this).
Good condition cars will probably be better off sold at a higher price than traded for a mere $4,500.

But yeah, I can see how this whole CARS deal isn't good for those of us wanting to get project cars in the sub 5000k range.
Owners of those junkers are better off getting rid of them, than to sell it back to those of us who want to sell the car.
That, or it just drives up the price or existing old cars.
There will be less supply.
For the existing cars, nobody's going to bother going through the hassle of selling a car, if they can get $4,500 easy from a trade.

Those wanting to buy classic/muscle cars would probably get hit hard the most.
Many of the older japanese compacts still got excellent mileage stock, and would be exempt from CARS.
If you've always wanted to restore that old Musclecar/Rat-Rod/Classic/Truck, now might be the time to do it.

If you're next project is some old Z, 510, civic, 240, etc, you probably shouldn't be effected too much about this whole ordeal.

Overall Im not too enthusiastic about this.
However, it is nice to see more of those obnoxious Exploders & Cherokees go away.

jamg

my car gets 21...lolz

but my dads experlor sport trac may be eligible.

ryguy

Hey now, Cherokees are wonderful cars. I have a 99 Cherokee 4x4 as a winter truck with 218k on it, original motor, original tranny, that thing is the definition of reliability. It's fun as hell to drive too.

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HyperTek

FD and supras are still up in their 15k - 30k easily.. only an idiot would trade it in on this program.. those people who go by blue book values etc.. fuck the bluebook!!

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Keep it Classy

theronin

i'd love to get a Typhoon!

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chibo

It is when it is a zenki with a salvage title because it got hit by a DUI college student and now has a completely smashed quarter panel and door.

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1989 S13 | 1996 S14 | 2001 E46 | 2009 ZX6R

ronmcdon

Agreed, lmao!
They can shove it up where the sun don't shine.

ronmcdon

Is that the 80's design model?
To some of the American cars' credit, lot of them were fairly reliable.

I guess they might be fun for a better driver.
For the hordes of soccer moms in suburbia, those cars were death on wheels (like their Ford counterparts).

Seems like the SUV really is in decline after 2 decades of popularity.
Driving around in Los Angeles, (upon casual, non-scientific observation), I see more Prius than Explorers, Grand Cherokee's, and Trailblazers combined.

adam s

I love how we are supposed to believe government funded health care will work, when they can't even properly anticipate and fund something as mediocre as this.

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ronmcdon

Depends on how you define 'work'.

The only real concern, imo, is how much the CARS program will cost taxpayers in the long run.
IF, it was only 3 Billion total and nothing more, then in the grand scheme of things it's not a huge amount.
Or at least not so, relative to the other grandiose govt expenditures this year.

Now if it's going to be more than 3 Bill, that's a cause for concern.
Agree or not, at least make long term plans and advise taxpayers how much it's going cost us realistically.
I have a feeling that additional 2 Bill approved by legislation won't last long, nor will it be the last of CARS funding.

If the issue is saving the environment, that's a huge debate in itself.
Some will claim it's working great.
CARS' initial 1 Bill was intended to last from July to Nov.
However, it caught on so fast, the 1 Bill was spent in barely 1 week!
cars getting trade in average a combined EPA of approx 16 mph
cars bought average a combined EPA of approx 25 mpg.

Could be argued, however, that 25 mpg was too low, if the objective was to go green.
some ppl bought new F-150 trucks.
If the environment & saving gas was the concern, new car credit should have only been for the purchase of even more enviro-friendly cars like the Prius, Honda Hybrid, or compacts like the focus (which strangely, was one of the top sellers).
You also have to figure the production of a new car creates a lot of pollution anyways.

Personally, I'm more inclined to say that environmental agendas here were way too lax.
They could have done much more.
There could have also been incentives given that don't cost the taxpayers $$$, such as giving those hybrids car-pool rights again, or free parking at meters, etc.

axiomatik

If the owner didn't care enough about the Corvette to mind that it will get destroyed, I can't imagine they would be super fastidious in keeping it in tip-top condition.

Everything except the engine can be re-sold by salvage yards. Even then, a good chunk of the engine can still be used, you can still sell all of the accessories off the engine, just the internals get destroyed. It's not like they are setting up car crushers in dealer's lots.

Also, $1 billion is only $3 per person. It really isn't a lot of money at the federal level. Not only that, but the government will recoup some of that in increased corporate taxes from the additional sales the car companies do, increased income taxes from auto employees that would otherwise be furloughed, increased income taxes from dealers, salesmen, auto transporters, etc. Local governements will see a boost in sales taxes. The true cost of the program is not $4500/car, it will be less.

Then that dealer was stupid. If the trade-in value was that high, they should have just accepted it as a regular trade-in and then sold it used and turn a profit on it. Btw, how many "rusted to shit, oil burning steel behemoths" do you actually see on the roads anymore? Most poor people I see are driving around in cars/suvs from the 90's.

For the trade-in to make any sense, it has to be worth less than $4500 (realistically, less that $3000 or so, otherwise the dealer would make more profit selling it as a used car). So even if it runs ok, it's probably not going to stay reliable for too long if it's that old.

What does that have anything to do with this? This isn't "Free Cars for Welfare Moms". I may take advantage of this program with my wife's '97 Expedition. It runs fine now, but is nearing 170k on the odo, and I don't think it will remain reliable all that much longer. I'm an engineer. She's a microbiologist. What does fucking up in life have anything to do with it? You still have to be able to afford the new car after the rebate.

I'm pretty sure they just compiled a list of all cars eligible. Porsche 911's are probably on the list too. Doesn't mean they'll get traded in.

Actually, Bush gave the first auto industry bail-out in December.

There's no way this program will run for a year at $2bil/month. It was only designed as a short-term stimulus. Besides, as the program continues to run, fewer and fewer cars will be on the road that are eligible, who are also owned by people who are in the position to buy a new car. Also, fyi, the $1 trillion figure for healthcare is the projected cost over 10 years, so the cost is actually $100 billion/year. I see a lot of people confused by that

Probably not many. You have to figure the few that are on the road anymore are likely to be owned by enthusiasts who wouldn't trade them in to be destroyed.

How can you anticipate exactly how many people would take advantage of this program? It has never been done in this country before. Auto sales are at historic lows. Millions of people are conerned about potentially losing their jobs, and are afraid to take on a liability like a new car loan. Any guess as to how many people would participate would be nothing more than wild speculation. Besides, the original proposal was $4 billion. It was trimmed to $1 billion while passing through committee.

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Gnnr

LMFAO, lower income countries hate American cars. The majority of the cars sent to the Caribbean over here are Toyotas and Hondas.

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mademedoit

So who profits from the million gallons of this sodium silicate solution that MUST be used to destroy the engine???