This is the roll center, suspension pickup, and steering angle modification thread. - Page 44 - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

DC Dan MAX USA · 07-16-2010, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slidin' Sam

^^^^^^^

はい　ども！　愛してる　ダンーサン！

do mo

Quote:

Originally Posted by nieko

do you guys mod the LCAs along with the knuckles when you pay the 550?

$550 is removal of oem parts, mod knuckles and lca with MAX SAK, install parts and toe alignment with tie rod angle spacers. All day job.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandapants

In addition to ^^^, could you press in new ball joints if we send them with the arms?

I really hate doing that, we have a press but no tooling to make it easy. If you are just going to get stock equivalent replacement (moog etc.) joints, I would prefer you get 100% new stock replacement lca's from eBay.

nieko · 07-17-2010, 12:07 AM

oh damn... thats pretty legit then! ill be down there within the next few weeks then. i need to make an appointment right? and if i drive down when you guys open would i be able to drive it back home by the time you close? lol

DC Dan MAX USA · 07-17-2010, 01:04 AM

Yes that will work, were open 10:30-5:30 mon-fri, need to schedule it

GripTerror · 07-17-2010, 06:50 AM

So how much for the rear knuckles then?

nieko · 07-17-2010, 09:31 PM

He said he is not sure yet, they stilll need to be tested and what not...

nieko · 07-26-2010, 12:48 AM

Why has this thread died?

something to think about:

a friend of mine decided to mod his knuckles.

all he did was fuck with ackerman, and gave him self a little more angle, he wishes he wouldve made them a little shorter but anyway.

he gave himself 0 ackerman and he is running a ka24de.

i watched him drive at the last event and the car totally follows the front, it looked amazing.

and he said there was no problem as far as not enough power, he was actually able to hold things out a little more than normal imo.

soo to the 0 ackerman being to intense for low powered cars i think is a myth, car felt great.

Z33dori · 07-26-2010, 06:22 AM

any video of this? I would like to maybe start reviewing videos of cars using diff knuckles, maybe try and disect how each is diff.

Def · 07-26-2010, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nieko

Why has this thread died?

something to think about:

a friend of mine decided to mod his knuckles.

all he did was fuck with ackerman, and gave him self a little more angle, he wishes he wouldve made them a little shorter but anyway.

he gave himself 0 ackerman and he is running a ka24de.

i watched him drive at the last event and the car totally follows the front, it looked amazing.

and he said there was no problem as far as not enough power, he was actually able to hold things out a little more than normal imo.

soo to the 0 ackerman being to intense for low powered cars i think is a myth, car felt great.

Who said that?

Having zero acerkman reduces tire scrub during a drift, so I don't see how it matters how much power you have. If anything, a lower HP car needs less front tire scrub than a higher HP car that can make up for the scrub somewhat by putting down the power.

Z33dori · 07-26-2010, 09:44 AM

what do you mean by tire scrub?

PoorMans180SX · 07-26-2010, 10:19 AM

How the trailing tire (in drift) doesn't turn at the angle that the leading tire is steering the car, therefore scrubbing. Zero ackerman eliminates this by making both tires turn the same angle.

Z33dori · 07-26-2010, 11:43 AM

Okay so here Power's follow wheel is def not neg, so would this mean the tire is scrubbing? Which i would imagine at the high/faster entries of FD u would need the scrubbing so u could slow down after high speed entries?

am i on the right track with this?

PoorMans180SX · 07-26-2010, 04:32 PM

Yes. You can see that his ackerman is reduced, but not quite eliminated.

It depends on the scrubbing speed thing. You can always use the brakes. Four-wheel lockups Tanner Foust style.

And if you're coming in backwards, there will be tire scrub no matter what you do. That's part of the art.

Slidin' Sam · 07-26-2010, 04:51 PM

I think when Dan was talking about having too much ackerman reduction, he was refferring to how the rack could over-center from too much angle and that it is easier to compensate for this with a higher hp car. Front tire scrubbing is not retained for slowing the car down, I think that is just a side effect from drifting that some drivers may use to help themselves in certain situations.

DC Dan MAX USA · 07-26-2010, 04:52 PM

From page 47

Quote:

Originally Posted by DC Dan MAX USA

Theory with zero ackerman is that with tons of power you could carry your drift along a straight section very far with good front traction and in various corners you have the power to easily steer with the rear as both front tires track together, But if you did not have the power to sustain such a long high speed drift then its usefullness is limited and side effects would compromise the grip on a low power car. For most drifters, a conservative reduction in ackerman is more appropriate. The MAX Super Angle kit has adjustable ackerman depending upon the knuckle extension installation position.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Def

Who said that?
Having zero acerkman reduces tire scrub during a drift, so I don't see how it matters how much power you have. If anything, a lower HP car needs less front tire scrub than a higher HP car that can make up for the scrub somewhat by putting down the power.

The earliest person that I know of who first applied this theory to professional drifting and aftermarket parts success is Daigo Saito & Hey Man products (D1GP Red 800PS Chaser) I'll see if I have time to scan the Drift tengoku feature that shows Daigo's parts, and there is two other companies featured following the same path in the article.

I believe Daigo, basically because it makes sense that the high power car needs all the front traction it can get at full lock because of the speed the car is capable of maintaining a drift. I dont think you want to be dragging a front tire along at 80mph+ drifting but its perfectly ok in a second gear drift. The high power car is only ever a second away from hitting full lock or initiating a drift session with a flick of the throttle. You can apply any suspension setting to any car but there is tradeoffs. Like on low power car you need a lot of grip ability through one section of the track to build enough speed to initiate and carry you through the drift turns so you would not want to be understeering low speed turns because of zero ackerman on a 200HP car while trying to build up for your big initiation.

Slidin' Sam · 07-26-2010, 04:55 PM

Man, I wish this would have came up like 2 day's ago when I saw Daigo last. I guess I can ask Shinji (Hey Man) tonight or something what they did for Daigo's set-up...

*!Zar!* · 07-26-2010, 05:44 PM

Let me help you pick up those names that you dropped.

nieko · 07-26-2010, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Def

Who said that?

Having zero acerkman reduces tire scrub during a drift, so I don't see how it matters how much power you have. If anything, a lower HP car needs less front tire scrub than a higher HP car that can make up for the scrub somewhat by putting down the power.

Dan said that....

but i guess what he meant was, you wont be able to grip the turn before the initation so you will need all the power you can right after the turn to initiate at the appropriate speed.

but i was only talking about drifting.

i could only see less ackerman helping an underpowered car. lol

Slidin' Sam · 07-26-2010, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by !Zar!

Let me help you pick up those names that you dropped.

lol what is that supposed to mean?

Def · 07-26-2010, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DC Dan MAX USA

You can apply any suspension setting to any car but there is tradeoffs.

Very very true. I just wanted to highlight this, as there seems to be a bit too much "what's the magic setting for all situations" creeping into this thread. There is definitely a give and take. Zero ackerman is going to help you at higher speed drifts at mad angle, but at lower speed the car is going to turn-in like a horse and buggy since you're going to have so much scrub at mild angles when the front is still "gripping."

Slidin' Sam · 07-26-2010, 06:21 PM

So maybe we should be making ackerman changes based more on the type of drifting bein done as opposed to the power of the car then?

DC Dan MAX USA · 07-26-2010, 06:33 PM

Ackerman angle and power relationship from sept. 2008 DT page 26-27

Daigo Saito & Hey Man products (D1GP Red 800PS Chaser) offers several levels of angle and ackerman shown on the top of page two. Left part is OEM, second is a street drift, third is the 600HP car, and on the right is the 800HP D1 spec. Each one has a little less ackerman (never gets to zero) and a shorter steering arm for more angle and quicker steering.

Someone is going to ask why this chaser applicable to our cars. I would say its because both cars have the same setup where the steering rack is located behind the knuckle.

nieko · 07-26-2010, 06:43 PM

Good post sir.

i wish our steering knuckles were that instantly simple to change out haha

Slidin' Sam · 07-26-2010, 07:52 PM

It's funny, the simplier knuckle design (jzx over s-chassis) actually costs more money to have modified.

On a side not, I am still baffled as to why Shinji (Hey Man) does not like the design of the PSM knuckles and how PSM refrences Hey Man Products a lot. Part of me wonders if I was wrong in choosing the Max knuckles over the Hey Man knuckles...but I guess I'm being somewhat of a test rat...

95KA-Turbo · 07-26-2010, 11:13 PM

Control arm update....

Finally cut off that bump stop thing and got the new misalignment spacers put in all around. The front will be corrected ~14mms more then the rear - but I have the subframe risers in the back as well.

Front:

Distance between knuckle and top of spherical bearing:

Rear:

Distance between spindle and top of spherical bearing:

My new tie rod end bolts in comparison to the shanks I'm using for the LCAs (5/8X6"):

DC Dan MAX USA · 07-27-2010, 12:13 AM

Nice, we've been working on some new lca's with different roll center adjustable rod ends too.

articdragon192 · 07-27-2010, 12:49 AM

Integrated tension rod? Nice

Touge Noob S13 · 07-27-2010, 01:37 AM

Reminds me of the Ikeya Formula and 326 Power FLCAs.

PoorMans180SX · 07-27-2010, 10:30 AM

Yeah, but they'll be available in the states, I'm sure a better price, and that rear arm is not only stronger, but more aerodynamic.

Dan, the only thing that is missing is a rear sway bar hole?

Z33dori · 07-27-2010, 11:32 AM

KPR leading 58degress, trailing 52degress

DC Dan MAX USA · 07-27-2010, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

Dan, the only thing that is missing is a rear sway bar hole?

Good eyes. Yes, missing on that particular drawing, but we've got it covered.
Making the proto parts as we speak.

07-17-2010, 12:07 AM	#1292
nieko Post Whore! Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Westminster Age: 30 Posts: 2,694 Trader Rating: (14) Feedback Score: 14 reviews	oh damn... thats pretty legit then! ill be down there within the next few weeks then. i need to make an appointment right? and if i drive down when you guys open would i be able to drive it back home by the time you close? lol __________________

07-17-2010, 01:04 AM	#1293
DC Dan MAX USA Zilvia.net Advertiser Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: San Diego Posts: 2,478 Trader Rating: (79) Feedback Score: 79 reviews	Yes that will work, were open 10:30-5:30 mon-fri, need to schedule it __________________ How To order: You can order directly from our zilvia advertiser threads. When you add to cart, you get an instant shipping estimate, & the cart will remember all of your items as you move between forum threads and our website www.poweredbymax.net until you remove them or check out. I can also calculate estimates manually for you but the cart's estimates are way faster and more accurate. Order Inquiry: IM me your real name and paypal address. Thanks for your business!

07-17-2010, 09:31 PM	#1295
nieko Post Whore! Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Westminster Age: 30 Posts: 2,694 Trader Rating: (14) Feedback Score: 14 reviews	He said he is not sure yet, they stilll need to be tested and what not... __________________

07-26-2010, 12:48 AM	#1296
nieko Post Whore! Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Westminster Age: 30 Posts: 2,694 Trader Rating: (14) Feedback Score: 14 reviews	Why has this thread died? something to think about: a friend of mine decided to mod his knuckles. all he did was fuck with ackerman, and gave him self a little more angle, he wishes he wouldve made them a little shorter but anyway. he gave himself 0 ackerman and he is running a ka24de. i watched him drive at the last event and the car totally follows the front, it looked amazing. and he said there was no problem as far as not enough power, he was actually able to hold things out a little more than normal imo. soo to the 0 ackerman being to intense for low powered cars i think is a myth, car felt great. __________________

07-26-2010, 06:22 AM	#1297
Z33dori Post Whore! Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Riverview, FL Age: 32 Posts: 5,557 Trader Rating: (12) Feedback Score: 12 reviews	any video of this? I would like to maybe start reviewing videos of cars using diff knuckles, maybe try and disect how each is diff. __________________

07-17-2010, 06:50 AM	#1294
GripTerror Zilvia Addict Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Canada Age: 36 Posts: 685 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	So how much for the rear knuckles then?

07-26-2010, 09:44 AM	#1299
Z33dori Post Whore! Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Riverview, FL Age: 32 Posts: 5,557 Trader Rating: (12) Feedback Score: 12 reviews	what do you mean by tire scrub? __________________

07-26-2010, 10:19 AM	#1300
PoorMans180SX Zilvia.net Advertiser Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Michigan Age: 33 Posts: 5,431 Trader Rating: (16) Rides Gallery: PoorMans180SX Feedback Score: 16 reviews	How the trailing tire (in drift) doesn't turn at the angle that the leading tire is steering the car, therefore scrubbing. Zero ackerman eliminates this by making both tires turn the same angle. __________________ Build: http://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=643065 Friends don't let friends buy knock-offs.

07-26-2010, 11:43 AM	#1301
Z33dori Post Whore! Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Riverview, FL Age: 32 Posts: 5,557 Trader Rating: (12) Feedback Score: 12 reviews	Okay so here Power's follow wheel is def not neg, so would this mean the tire is scrubbing? Which i would imagine at the high/faster entries of FD u would need the scrubbing so u could slow down after high speed entries? am i on the right track with this? __________________

07-26-2010, 04:32 PM	#1302
PoorMans180SX Zilvia.net Advertiser Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Michigan Age: 33 Posts: 5,431 Trader Rating: (16) Rides Gallery: PoorMans180SX Feedback Score: 16 reviews	Yes. You can see that his ackerman is reduced, but not quite eliminated. It depends on the scrubbing speed thing. You can always use the brakes. Four-wheel lockups Tanner Foust style. And if you're coming in backwards, there will be tire scrub no matter what you do. That's part of the art. __________________ Build: http://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=643065 Friends don't let friends buy knock-offs.

07-26-2010, 04:51 PM	#1303
Slidin' Sam Zilvia Addict Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Japan Posts: 729 Trader Rating: (9) Feedback Score: 9 reviews	I think when Dan was talking about having too much ackerman reduction, he was refferring to how the rack could over-center from too much angle and that it is easier to compensate for this with a higher hp car. Front tire scrubbing is not retained for slowing the car down, I think that is just a side effect from drifting that some drivers may use to help themselves in certain situations. __________________

07-26-2010, 04:55 PM	#1305
Slidin' Sam Zilvia Addict Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Japan Posts: 729 Trader Rating: (9) Feedback Score: 9 reviews	Man, I wish this would have came up like 2 day's ago when I saw Daigo last. I guess I can ask Shinji (Hey Man) tonight or something what they did for Daigo's set-up... __________________

07-26-2010, 05:44 PM	#1306
!Zar! Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: North Korea Posts: 14,576 Trader Rating: (27) Feedback Score: 27 reviews	Let me help you pick up those names that you dropped. __________________

07-26-2010, 06:21 PM	#1310
Slidin' Sam Zilvia Addict Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Japan Posts: 729 Trader Rating: (9) Feedback Score: 9 reviews	So maybe we should be making ackerman changes based more on the type of drifting bein done as opposed to the power of the car then? __________________

07-26-2010, 06:33 PM	#1311
DC Dan MAX USA Zilvia.net Advertiser Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: San Diego Posts: 2,478 Trader Rating: (79) Feedback Score: 79 reviews	Ackerman angle and power relationship from sept. 2008 DT page 26-27 Daigo Saito & Hey Man products (D1GP Red 800PS Chaser) offers several levels of angle and ackerman shown on the top of page two. Left part is OEM, second is a street drift, third is the 600HP car, and on the right is the 800HP D1 spec. Each one has a little less ackerman (never gets to zero) and a shorter steering arm for more angle and quicker steering. Someone is going to ask why this chaser applicable to our cars. I would say its because both cars have the same setup where the steering rack is located behind the knuckle. __________________ How To order: You can order directly from our zilvia advertiser threads. When you add to cart, you get an instant shipping estimate, & the cart will remember all of your items as you move between forum threads and our website www.poweredbymax.net until you remove them or check out. I can also calculate estimates manually for you but the cart's estimates are way faster and more accurate. Order Inquiry: IM me your real name and paypal address. Thanks for your business!

07-26-2010, 06:43 PM	#1312
nieko Post Whore! Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Westminster Age: 30 Posts: 2,694 Trader Rating: (14) Feedback Score: 14 reviews	Good post sir. i wish our steering knuckles were that instantly simple to change out haha __________________

07-26-2010, 07:52 PM	#1313
Slidin' Sam Zilvia Addict Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Japan Posts: 729 Trader Rating: (9) Feedback Score: 9 reviews	It's funny, the simplier knuckle design (jzx over s-chassis) actually costs more money to have modified. On a side not, I am still baffled as to why Shinji (Hey Man) does not like the design of the PSM knuckles and how PSM refrences Hey Man Products a lot. Part of me wonders if I was wrong in choosing the Max knuckles over the Hey Man knuckles...but I guess I'm being somewhat of a test rat... __________________

07-26-2010, 11:13 PM	#1314
95KA-Turbo Post Whore! Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: LA Age: 36 Posts: 3,402 Trader Rating: (19) Feedback Score: 19 reviews	Control arm update.... Finally cut off that bump stop thing and got the new misalignment spacers put in all around. The front will be corrected ~14mms more then the rear - but I have the subframe risers in the back as well. Front: Distance between knuckle and top of spherical bearing: Rear: Distance between spindle and top of spherical bearing: My new tie rod end bolts in comparison to the shanks I'm using for the LCAs (5/8X6"): __________________ Instagram - SJKnoop

07-27-2010, 12:13 AM	#1315
DC Dan MAX USA Zilvia.net Advertiser Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: San Diego Posts: 2,478 Trader Rating: (79) Feedback Score: 79 reviews	Nice, we've been working on some new lca's with different roll center adjustable rod ends too. __________________ How To order: You can order directly from our zilvia advertiser threads. When you add to cart, you get an instant shipping estimate, & the cart will remember all of your items as you move between forum threads and our website www.poweredbymax.net until you remove them or check out. I can also calculate estimates manually for you but the cart's estimates are way faster and more accurate. Order Inquiry: IM me your real name and paypal address. Thanks for your business!

07-27-2010, 12:49 AM	#1316
articdragon192 Post Whore! Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: West covina/ Irvine Age: 35 Posts: 6,789 Trader Rating: (9) Feedback Score: 9 reviews	Integrated tension rod? Nice __________________ Need help? Click here Still stumped? Try this Can't find what you're looking for? Here you go.

07-27-2010, 10:30 AM	#1318
PoorMans180SX Zilvia.net Advertiser Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Michigan Age: 33 Posts: 5,431 Trader Rating: (16) Rides Gallery: PoorMans180SX Feedback Score: 16 reviews	Yeah, but they'll be available in the states, I'm sure a better price, and that rear arm is not only stronger, but more aerodynamic. Dan, the only thing that is missing is a rear sway bar hole? __________________ Build: http://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=643065 Friends don't let friends buy knock-offs.

07-27-2010, 11:32 AM	#1319
Z33dori Post Whore! Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Riverview, FL Age: 32 Posts: 5,557 Trader Rating: (12) Feedback Score: 12 reviews	KPR leading 58degress, trailing 52degress __________________

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