tiggertsi

when did other tax payers pay for uninsured people before obamacare? i'm pretty sure collection agencies and lawsuits were used to get payments on medical bills owed by uninsured americans. granted these tactics were not always successful and there exists legal recourse to deal with those issues, but ultimately it would be the healthcare provider that would lose money. and this "penalty" is a tax, you do remember that the supreme court ruled on this right? they had to rule it as a tax for it to be "constitutional". if any of you think that this government whom can't even deal with their own skyrocketing debt (one of numerous problems that this nation faces) and a president who has lied numerous times about obamacare, particularly when it was said you will be able to keep your current health care plan, are going to be able to pull this off and not hurt americans in the process are naive. all i can say is keep ignoring those whom are already getting fucked by obamacare and as it gets worse keep listening to lying politicians who continue to get their campaign contributions from the very corporate entities that get the greatest benefit from legislation like this.

"Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual." --Thomas Jefferson

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66 Plymouth Satellite, 96 Nissan 240sx, 03 Harley Sportster. Toys!

The Dude

Other taxpayers didn't pay for poor people visiting the ER. I explained this earlier. Insurance premiums go up for the people who do pay (due to increased costs for the hospital) because most hospitals are required by law to treat patients who come to the ER. "The Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA) is a U.S. Act of Congress passed in 1986 as part of the Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act (COBRA). It requires hospitals to provide care to anyone needing emergency healthcare treatment regardless of citizenship, legal status or ability to pay."

I'm not advocating obamacare necessarily, as I think the single-payer healthcare that many other civilized nations have (canada and some european countries) is a better alternative. It would have also been cheaper.

I don't think it's any secret that democrats preferred the single-payer system from the start. The ACA was most-definitely a compromise because there was such resistance to the idea of single-payer.

Romneycare and Obamacare are very similar. The differences are mainly due to medicare (which is not run by the state, and thus has nothing to do with the state of Massachusetts). Let me do a quick rundown of the similarities:

1. Both have individual mandates (or a "tax" for not holding insurance)
2. Romneycare requires businesses with over 11 employees to offer insurance, while Obamacare requires the same for businesses with over 50
3. Romneycare offers Medicaid to state residents earning under 150% of the federal poverty level, Obamacare for less than 133%
4. Obamacare allows young adults to stay on their parents' insurance plans until they are 26. Romneycare does too, but at a reduced benefit level.

What exactly are you claiming are the major differences between the two plans?

tiggertsi

i would contest that insurance premiums go up more because of profiteering greed more so than any other reason. and i know about cobra and the emtala but where do you get that either of those have any thing to do with insurance premiums going up because on non health care insured people getting medical treatment? can you show me the mechanism that would do just what you describe? i would love to see this described, but i think it's a huge leap to say what you describe IS the reason why insurance premiums and the cost of healthcare in general have steadily risen without looking at the profit factor, the inefficiency factor, the jobs program factor, the fleecing of money factor and a whole myriad of other factors. the bottom line is the healthcare industry and healthcare insurance industry are corrupt and obamacare does nothing to address this whatsoever. this is just like the ridiculous idea of bailing out failing banks and financial institutions without even beginning to attempt to reform the corruption within those industries and i think anyone can clearly see where that has gotten us. also the assumption is that people with no healthcare insurance do not pay their medical expenses. so show me the percentage of those who do versus those who do not. historically speaking healthcare was a lot cheaper 50 years ago and inversely the value of the dollar was more as well. go figure. go talk to any older doctors and i almost would bet donuts to dollars that the vast majority will tell you healthcare 50+ years ago was simpler, cheaper and less controlled by corporate profit interests.

i am glad you are not advocating obamacare. and i agree with you, this could have been done cheaper and frankly i believe if the root causes were addressed that it could have been done without forcing anyone to buy anything or pay a tax.

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66 Plymouth Satellite, 96 Nissan 240sx, 03 Harley Sportster. Toys!

The Dude

I'm not saying the ONLY reason insurance premiums go up is because of the "free riders." I'm saying that since they do not have to pay for their medical bills at the ER, the hospital has to raise their costs or lose money (which they wouldn't do), so they pass it to the insurance companies, who either have to raise premium rates or lose money (which they wouldn't do), so then we, the insured, get fucked.

I think most of us will agree that the system we have now and the system we had before are seriously flawed. I like the idea of everyone having access to medical care if they need it.

ineedone

This is very simple.

Example: Uninsured (or under-insured) person gets hit by car. Person (or insurance company) gets hit with a bill for all medical services provided. Person (or insurance company) does not or will not cover the cost.

Now here is where things change - Hospital insurance company may sue person insurance company. Lawsuits are expensive and generally they will not recover the "full" amount of services rendered. Unless it is an egregious bill - they are going to try and settle which means they are not getting the full amount they are seeking (then write whatever the difference is as a "loss").


Scenario two - Hospital insurance company sues person with little to no money - (if they can find the person) person declares bankruptcy and all his debt is alleviated. Therefore hospital insurance is still stuck with an unpaid bill. They can write off the loss only to a certain extent... so that leaves them with x amount of dollars unpaid for services rendered.

So, when the insurance companies (on both sides) have unpaid or underpaid bills (or they lose their claim for whatever reason), they raise premiums on those who do pay premiums and have insurance to cover their losses.

Do some research on premium hikes for the 10 years before the ACA, then compare those to the (hopefully) smaller hikes we will now see.

tiggertsi

again i think the effect you describe is nowhere near as close, particularly when combined with collection efforts and or lawsuits, or insignificant compared to why the cost goes higher through straight corruption and exorbitant profiteering by the healthcare and healthcare insurance industry. drug companies are a good example, but it also applies to insurance companies and medical device companies and boards of chairmen overseeing hospitals just to name a few.

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66 Plymouth Satellite, 96 Nissan 240sx, 03 Harley Sportster. Toys!

ineedone

An average ER visit costs more than an average month's rent

or its just the idea of making health a for profit entity.

tiggertsi

and this causes health insurance premiums to go up more, comparatively speaking, than the other factors i listed? i know that loss on services rendered are a driving factor of cost, but i also contend they are not the greatest driving factor of cost, nowhere near, especially healthcare premium costs. and as far as your hope goes i know, personally, several people who have already seen their premiums rise significantly because of obamacare. personally i'll be paying the tax until the point it costs more to pay the tax then it does to buy into obamacare.

and after reading this article, i think it perfectly illustrates what i am saying when i say the healthcare industry and healthcare insurance industry is corrupt as all hell when it comes to making profit be the number one driving factor for corporate healthcare interests. one of the best examples and yes also most extreme i know of is this ............. after this the company called bayer should never exist as a corporate named company in the history of humanity.

honestly i do not see how obamacare is going to do any good. how can a government that is already running things into the ground going to make this work any better than the crappy job it has already done with the programs it has gotten involved in in the last 100 years?

i haven't had healthcare insurance for more than 3 years. i have been to the er once and to my regular doctor more than 10 times, i have paid with cash and a few times i have had to set up payment plans when the cost was more than i could afford at that specific time. but you know what? i also do not have any other form of debt, nothing. no car payments, no house payment, no frivolous bills that i can live without so guess what? it makes it alot easier to do exactly what i have done. also i know my regular doctor prefers cash payments from his patients and even offers discounts to those patients as dealing with insurance companies is a hassle for him, time wise and cost wise as well. you know why? cause the insurance companies are always trying to fuck him and the other doctors in his practice for profit. there are many across the nation that experience the same thing.

and btw check this out, very telling.......

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3825477.html

http://www.businessinsider.com/best-...e-world-2012-6

http://www.truthdig.com/eartothegrou...drug_companies

http://www.bloomberg.com/visual-data...care-countries

http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapoth...h-care-system/

and you can keep digging and digging.

a government that can't reel in it's own skyrocketing debt by making the sacrifices it needs to make (like raising the debt ceiling isn't a sacrifice that needs to be made, it is the exact opposite) isn't going to magically have the ability to manage a government controlled and subsidized healthcare system any better or tackle the corruption that is rampant in the healthcare and healthcare insurance industries.

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66 Plymouth Satellite, 96 Nissan 240sx, 03 Harley Sportster. Toys!

The Dude

Corruption is a major problem for most every aspect of our government. Until politicians can no longer accept money from special interest groups we have no chance of mitigating it. That's part of the reason why I support the single-payer system...it takes out the goddamn insurance companies. Hence why the insurance companies, and thus the politicians, are against it. It would not be as expensive to most middle-class citizens as Obamacare and everyone would have access to healthcare. But fuck it I guess...socialism.

tiggertsi

dude i so agree with you. but this "Until politicians can no longer accept money from special interest groups" is not going to happen unless american citizens start demanding that politicians stop doing it and voting them out of office if they continue. and if that doesn't work then american citizens need to do exactly what the declaration for independence says in the second paragraph. obviously it's going to have to be more concentrated and effective efforts than say the "occupy" movement.

oh yeah and i also think american citizens need to start targeting special interest groups that give money to politicians. it's funny when a politician raises more money to get elected than the salary the elected position pays.

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66 Plymouth Satellite, 96 Nissan 240sx, 03 Harley Sportster. Toys!

theronin

Okay, now what?

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coreyh

Ok, 1. Canada has socialized healthcare, paid for by tax money, supplied to every citizen I was just speking to a guy from Canada who was visiting in Hollywood. He said they pay 30% (35%) in taxes for their healthcare, which seems like a better idea then bumping it up in the private sector to fund those who aren't working

2. Wanna know what country has a really good system? Panama. my old instructor was from there. they have socialized healthcare as well, BUT if you don't have a pay stub coming every month, you don't get insurance, children do, but if you aren't getting paid, you get no insurance. It keeps them motivated to work, and prevents fraud and abuse of the system, which is happening like rampant over here.

AFSil80

Anyone from the left that is begging for a single-payer system for healthcare needs to look at the VA hospital system.

That is what they're gonna get in return.

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- Peter
--66 LeMans--89 240SX--14 Juke RS--

Bushido

The pillars that the American healthcare system is built upon are rotten.

Healthcare should not be a capitalist, money making business scheme. As long as there is a system of profit-driven health insurance companies and pharmaceutical industry, there will be injustice.

Capitalist ideology should not be applied to healthcare or education in any society living in the 21st century.

Everybody pays a little bit- through taxes, and in return we get a healthy and educated populace, what should be a requisite of a functioning democracy (republic).

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AFSil80

Agreed. As Dylan Ratigan wrote in his book Greedy Bastards, as long as the American healthcare mentality is "fee for service" rather than preventative care, then there will always be incentive for companies to get money instead of providing care.

http://www.amazon.com/Greedy-Bastard.../dp/1451642237

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- Peter
--66 LeMans--89 240SX--14 Juke RS--

The Dude

There are different forms of single-payer systems. Not all of them are run by the government; single-payer just means that they are funded by the government.

I'm a veteran and I haven't had a problem with the VA hospital near me. I'm sure it's a mixed bag - some of them are shitty and some are ok.

joeapple8

Exactly what happened to me within Silicon Valley, being an low level IT contractor you can really get fisted without lube.

Now I sit in an office for 8 hours a day reading post on Zilvia.