This is the roll center, suspension pickup, and steering angle modification thread. - Page 183 - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

Drift_FX · 06-05-2013, 02:05 AM

^^^ that whole setup looks like it will be prone to failure.....

BOROSUN · 06-05-2013, 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

Looks like the LCA's are about 40mm longer in their shortest position.

It's hard to take pictures that show the differences accurately, lens distortion and the angle you take the picture at definitely effect how it looks.

what's the weight on those?

icantdrift · 06-05-2013, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drift_FX

^^^ that whole setup looks like it will be prone to failure.....

Care to elaborate?

icantdrift · 06-05-2013, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Croustibat

Isnt he the guy that was thrashed some time ago for using rod ends on FLCA knuckle mount ? I think i recognize the knuckle.

It seems he changed his design... may be interested too depending on features, design quality and price. The traction rod mount to LCA is kind of creeping me out though (but i am no mechanical engineer so i could be wrong)

edit: yes, that was him. So he DID account for remarks. I'll be gripping so i dont care about bumpstops ... and i cant see his setup weaker than oem arms. Maybe on the knuckle ?

Same guy. His original calcs showed that the rod end he was using was plenty strong but is most definitely willing to make changes to the design for the sake of improved design and safety/reliability.

The TC rod mount is a bit odd to me as well, but if necessary I can always drill and tap a hole for a U bracket and run two rod ends like my current setup uses. I do a lot more track days than drifting so I will be installing and taking measurements without the rack spacers then giving them some track time on big sticky rubber.

godrifttoday · 06-06-2013, 02:45 AM

I wonder why they don't use a 2 bolt design on the lower control arms

Croustibat · 06-06-2013, 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by godrifttoday

I wonder why they don't use a 2 bolt design on the lower control arms

Just a guess:
1/ 2 bolts design means you have to make the bolts loose enough to adjust caster without binding;
2/ 1 is enough;
3/ there is no room for 2.

PoorMans180SX · 06-06-2013, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BOROSUN

what's the weight on those?

I'll try and weigh them tomorrow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by godrifttoday

I wonder why they don't use a 2 bolt design on the lower control arms

Because the guy doesn't really know anything about designing a suspension component.

Motary · 06-06-2013, 07:59 AM

You guys are pretty quick to condemn stuff that you have not used or seen used, those uprights look similar that to modern Lexus IS/GS ones

PoorMans180SX · 06-06-2013, 08:14 AM

Unfortunately the design of a McPherson strut upright is far different in requirements than that to a double-wishbone setup. I was hesitant to say anything at first, but upon Def confirming what I thought, my gut feelings were right.

from NRR:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Def

The upright is very thin compared to say GKTech's aluminum upright. Stiffness in bending is purely a function of material and geometry, in this case, you get much more stiffness by making it thicker in the perpendicular to the plane of bending (i.e. a 1/8" bar is much easier to bend than a 1/4" thick bar).

The fact that he recessed everything in an already thin cross section means stresses just went up that much more, and the hub boss is in complete bending.

The fact that he used a half height jam nut in tension shows me a general lack of knowledge of mechanical design, as that is a nut that should be loaded in shear only. Shear being like the bolt going into your sway bar end. Bending loads one side in lots of compression, way more than you would think if it were just "pulling away" because it's using the bolt as a lever arm to magnify the forces. Exactly the same concept of using a long breaker bar to get more torque on a bolt, except in this case you're having that breaker bar yank on your half height jam nut that is specifically designed NOT to be loaded that way.

There's more, but those are the big things that jump out at me. But this was also the same guy who was arguing that a rod end in bending is not incorrect mechanical design. So it's like he's basically going through and making almost every bad design decision possible (it really is that bad, I'm not exaggerating, any of these screw ups can cause complete suspension failure on that corner).

Croustibat · 06-06-2013, 10:37 AM

We can easily see it wont be as strong as GKtech or tdp. The question that we should ask ourselves is "is it strong enough". I mean its ok to overbuild like the 2 i mentioned, but there has to be a threshold were it is strong enough.

I am not saying the design rock, it clearly has flaws. The question is: is it going to break ? If it is strong enough to compensate for design flaw, i cant see it as a bad thing really. I do remember OEM LCA is stamped steel and tension rod diameter around 1/2" . Is it REALLY weaker than oem ?

As far as the 1 bolt instead of 2 design goes, i remember some high end stuff that had the same 1 bolt tension rod to LCA too (except it had a ball joint on the tension rod end).

koukistylejdm · 06-06-2013, 01:33 PM

so the car handles great after the second wheel alignement this is max or close to max angle

Motary · 06-07-2013, 02:08 AM

Front tyres looks nicely planted!

icantdrift · 06-07-2013, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

Unfortunately the design of a McPherson strut upright is far different in requirements than that to a double-wishbone setup. I was hesitant to say anything at first, but upon Def confirming what I thought, my gut feelings were right.

from NRR:

He is planning some fatigue/stress testing now in light of the doubts raised on NRR. They've been running a test set on a car for a couple of months but only drifting to my knowledge, which was the main design consideration anyway. How weak could over an inch thick piece of 7075 really be?

icantdrift · 06-07-2013, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Croustibat

As far as the 1 bolt instead of 2 design goes, i remember some high end stuff that had the same 1 bolt tension rod to LCA too (except it had a ball joint on the tension rod end).

I think the main issue raised with the single bolt tension rod mount is that it is placed in bending by the force of the sway bar end link that is incorporated into the design. While I agree it is the first I've seen an end link of that style, as long as you're not binding the joints in the end link I wouldn't think there's that much bending force on it.

PoorMans180SX · 06-08-2013, 05:48 PM

More in my build thread:

Silvi · 06-08-2013, 06:32 PM

Cool! I can see that there is no problem with 16's and this kit.
Is it possible to purchase just the top plates?

PoorMans180SX · 06-08-2013, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silvi

Cool! I can see that there is no problem with 16's and this kit.
Is it possible to purchase just the top plates?

Not as far as I know.

Silvi · 06-08-2013, 08:02 PM

Is there enough clearance between the tire and the chassis rails at full lock?
I would like to know what the length of the kit's LCA compared to the stock one

PoorMans180SX · 06-09-2013, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silvi

Is there enough clearance between the tire and the chassis rails at full lock?
I would like to know what the length of the kit's LCA compared to the stock one

Yes there is. The arms starts at 40mm longer than the stock S13 one, and I have it probably 60mm longer at the moment. I'm going to try and tweak things to run them at their shortest setting.

Motary · 06-10-2013, 04:43 AM

He saved it

Croustibat · 06-10-2013, 05:43 AM

Reverse entry FTW XD

PoorMans180SX · 06-10-2013, 12:29 PM

SoCalDrifter · 06-10-2013, 01:03 PM

quick question if anyone can help me out here i just bought the SPL solid subframe bushings kit and it also came with spacers for it what the best positioning way to put them on for drifting? ive never used both before

Motary · 06-10-2013, 01:12 PM

It depends how low your car is, Id put them in the back, anti-squat can get negative on these cars when extremely lowered.

Vertical axis is suspension travel

SoCalDrifter · 06-10-2013, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Motary

It depends how low your car is, Id put them in the back, anti-squat can get negative on these cars when extremely lowered.

Vertical axis is suspension travel

cool thanks

my cars not to low but its not slammed either its just barely tucking in the first 1inch of the tire wall if anything.... if that makes sense

also now my other question is to where to put them...on the bottom to raise it or on the top to lower it?

drifter92 · 06-10-2013, 01:50 PM

I have read through 60-70 pages of this thread and searched but I can't find ant definitive information on about how long I should extend my LCA's.

I have a V8 S14 that isnt going to be very low, I ran 8.0 front caster -4.0 front camber and -0.5 rear camber on my s13 with the stock KA, high and hard in the front, low and soft in the back, I call it the "drift scoop" setup, it drove effortless, I had stock spindles with Tein tie rod spacers and 17x7" +40 wheels with a 38m spacer up front with a 215/45, 15x6" stocks in the rear with 195's. I plan on doing about the same setup in my S14, but adding extended lowers and cut knuckles.

So, my knowledgeable friend says extend it no less than 50mm/2"...

LMK what you guys think, and please quote my post if you have good information on my question. Thanks in advance!!!

Motary · 06-10-2013, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drifter92

I have read through 60-70 pages of this thread and searched but I can't find ant definitive information on about how long I should extend my LCA's.

I have a V8 S14 that isnt going to be very low, I ran 8.0 front caster -4.0 front camber and -0.5 rear camber on my s13 with the stock KA, high and hard in the front, low and soft in the back, I call it the "drift scoop" setup, it drove effortless, I had stock spindles with Tein tie rod spacers and 17x7" +40 wheels with a 38m spacer up front with a 215/45, 15x6" stocks in the rear with 195's. I plan on doing about the same setup in my S14, but adding extended lowers and cut knuckles.

So, my knowledgeable friend says extend it no less than 50mm/2"...

LMK what you guys think, and please quote my post if you have good information on my question. Thanks in advance!!!

Make it long enough to have clearence at full lock, simple as that.
Cut it in half, tack weld together and see if there is enough clearence, if not, hammer it off and make it longer and so on

SoCalDrifter - In the top! Also, try experimenting with different settings

*Jonnie Fraz* · 06-10-2013, 05:01 PM

I can say this about the Keisler Automation set up. The angle stops will smash into a million pieces one time at hard full lock.

drifter92 · 06-10-2013, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Motary

Make it long enough to have clearence at full lock, simple as that.
Cut it in half, tack weld together and see if there is enough clearence, if not, hammer it off and make it longer and so on

SoCalDrifter - In the top! Also, try experimenting with different settings

Thank you for the information!!! I plan on compensating for steering angle clearance by running a 17x7 up front with a 215/45 so i guess we'll see what works. Thanks man!

SoCalDrifter · 06-10-2013, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Motary

Make it long enough to have clearence at full lock, simple as that.
Cut it in half, tack weld together and see if there is enough clearence, if not, hammer it off and make it longer and so on

SoCalDrifter - In the top! Also, try experimenting with different settings

thanks man im gunna try different setups at my next track day but just goin to a small track this week to test the new parts out

06-08-2013, 05:48 PM	#5475
PoorMans180SX Zilvia.net Advertiser Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Michigan Age: 33 Posts: 5,432 Trader Rating: (16) Rides Gallery: PoorMans180SX Feedback Score: 16 reviews	More in my build thread: __________________ Build: http://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=643065 Friends don't let friends buy knock-offs.

06-10-2013, 12:29 PM	#5482
PoorMans180SX Zilvia.net Advertiser Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Michigan Age: 33 Posts: 5,432 Trader Rating: (16) Rides Gallery: PoorMans180SX Feedback Score: 16 reviews	__________________ Build: http://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=643065 Friends don't let friends buy knock-offs.

06-10-2013, 01:50 PM	#5486
drifter92 Nissanaholic! Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Texas Age: 29 Posts: 1,605 Trader Rating: (27) Feedback Score: 27 reviews	I have read through 60-70 pages of this thread and searched but I can't find ant definitive information on about how long I should extend my LCA's. I have a V8 S14 that isnt going to be very low, I ran 8.0 front caster -4.0 front camber and -0.5 rear camber on my s13 with the stock KA, high and hard in the front, low and soft in the back, I call it the "drift scoop" setup, it drove effortless, I had stock spindles with Tein tie rod spacers and 17x7" +40 wheels with a 38m spacer up front with a 215/45, 15x6" stocks in the rear with 195's. I plan on doing about the same setup in my S14, but adding extended lowers and cut knuckles. So, my knowledgeable friend says extend it no less than 50mm/2"... LMK what you guys think, and please quote my post if you have good information on my question. Thanks in advance!!! __________________ Instagram: chinowith https://www.youtube.com/user/untouchable361/videos

06-10-2013, 05:01 PM	#5488
Jonnie Fraz Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Cali Age: 53 Posts: 1,371 Trader Rating: (29) Rides Gallery: Jonnie Fraz Feedback Score: 29 reviews	I can say this about the Keisler Automation set up. The angle stops will smash into a million pieces one time at hard full lock. __________________ Stealth-Custom-Fab.com

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06-05-2013, 02:05 AM	#5461
Drift_FX Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: South NJ Posts: 389 Trader Rating: (3) Feedback Score: 3 reviews	^^^ that whole setup looks like it will be prone to failure.....

06-06-2013, 02:45 AM	#5465
godrifttoday Post Whore! Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: los angeles Age: 37 Posts: 3,120 Trader Rating: (82) Feedback Score: 82 reviews	I wonder why they don't use a 2 bolt design on the lower control arms

06-06-2013, 07:59 AM	#5468
Motary Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Estonia Age: 32 Posts: 450 Trader Rating: (2) Feedback Score: 2 reviews	You guys are pretty quick to condemn stuff that you have not used or seen used, those uprights look similar that to modern Lexus IS/GS ones

06-06-2013, 10:37 AM	#5470
Croustibat Nissanaholic! Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: France - Toulouse Age: 41 Posts: 1,851 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	We can easily see it wont be as strong as GKtech or tdp. The question that we should ask ourselves is "is it strong enough". I mean its ok to overbuild like the 2 i mentioned, but there has to be a threshold were it is strong enough. I am not saying the design rock, it clearly has flaws. The question is: is it going to break ? If it is strong enough to compensate for design flaw, i cant see it as a bad thing really. I do remember OEM LCA is stamped steel and tension rod diameter around 1/2" . Is it REALLY weaker than oem ? As far as the 1 bolt instead of 2 design goes, i remember some high end stuff that had the same 1 bolt tension rod to LCA too (except it had a ball joint on the tension rod end).

06-06-2013, 01:33 PM	#5471
koukistylejdm Zilvia Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Baie-comeau Qc Age: 34 Posts: 256 Trader Rating: (2) Feedback Score: 2 reviews	so the car handles great after the second wheel alignement this is max or close to max angle

06-07-2013, 02:08 AM	#5472
Motary Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Estonia Age: 32 Posts: 450 Trader Rating: (2) Feedback Score: 2 reviews	Front tyres looks nicely planted!

06-08-2013, 06:32 PM	#5476
Silvi Leaky Injector Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: IL Posts: 131 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Cool! I can see that there is no problem with 16's and this kit. Is it possible to purchase just the top plates?

06-08-2013, 08:02 PM	#5478
Silvi Leaky Injector Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: IL Posts: 131 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Is there enough clearance between the tire and the chassis rails at full lock? I would like to know what the length of the kit's LCA compared to the stock one

06-10-2013, 04:43 AM	#5480
Motary Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Estonia Age: 32 Posts: 450 Trader Rating: (2) Feedback Score: 2 reviews	He saved it

06-10-2013, 05:43 AM	#5481
Croustibat Nissanaholic! Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: France - Toulouse Age: 41 Posts: 1,851 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Reverse entry FTW XD

06-10-2013, 01:03 PM	#5483
SoCalDrifter Nissanaholic! Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Thousand Oaks-818 Posts: 1,990 Trader Rating: (10) Feedback Score: 10 reviews	quick question if anyone can help me out here i just bought the SPL solid subframe bushings kit and it also came with spacers for it what the best positioning way to put them on for drifting? ive never used both before

06-10-2013, 01:12 PM	#5484
Motary Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Estonia Age: 32 Posts: 450 Trader Rating: (2) Feedback Score: 2 reviews	It depends how low your car is, Id put them in the back, anti-squat can get negative on these cars when extremely lowered. Vertical axis is suspension travel