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axiomatik · 08-05-2011, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mrpopo

The reason it has nothing to do with what I said slowvia, is because my statement was that 250k in some places seems less because of cost of living. Learn to read.

And the tax on individuals in Georgia is something like 19%. If you buy something you pay tax on it if you don't buy something you don't pay the tax. Very simple system.

Georgia has gone through major reforms of all kinds in the past 10 years. I like how you picked out a single reform and attribute all of their recent success to that single reform.

Here, let me do the same thing:

Quote:

Look at the country Georgia which doubled the personal income tax rate. Their economy is booming and the higher taxes is the reason.

Therefore, we should double our personal tax rates here in the US and our economy will boom too!

codyace · 08-05-2011, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corbic

Ok Jimmy Carter... so someone making 250k a year should live like they
are only making $20,000 a year? I'm sorry, but that strikes me as
delusional. People work hard and make money to live better. That
thinking is what Economists constantly caution about, if the Government
is just planning on taking all your money so that you live "like
everyone else" then why make money? With no incentive to make money, you
have the entire country will end up like the inner cities or parts of
Europe. Please notice how no technological, economical or industrial
innovation has come from Belgium or Greece.

Just because you could live a certain way, does not mean you should live a certain way. Because I can own a Iphone and Ipad an Itv and a Imaid (for example) is no reason that I should. I mean how many people off the top of your head do you know that are broke, yet have a bunch of fancy nonsense that they don't need? That's my point. Granted it's not my right to tell people what they deserve and don't deserve, but damn if I won't voice my opinion on some of my friends dumbass choices when they can't afford to pay their mortages.

My point remains, more and more people live outside of their means, regardless of of their income or situation. I'm not saying you should live like a ramen noodle, 1982 Beretta driving, no cleaning supplies frat boy at all...but you can live an enjoyable lifestyle with basic things. To me, I'd rather have store brand condiments and stuff to enjoy real butchershop meat. I'd rather not goto the bar every night of the week to enjoy craft beer at home with friends. It's all a matter of proportion; it's all a matter of self control.

I don't disagree that if you want to live like a millionaire, that 250k is not enough...but it proves my point, you can't live like a millionaire with 250k, much like you can't live like upper middle class with 30k. We all work to live better, that's the point. I do not work to support a lifestyle though.

Mrpopo · 08-05-2011, 10:16 AM

Axio you are living proof that liberalism is a mental disorder. Over taxing and the government not listening to the people is the reason there was a revolution in this country. I have friends from north Korea, Cuba, Venezuela, and Iran they all fled to this country because of what it is and what it represents. This is the best country in the world. When the government starts oppressing the people in this country, we will have a revolt of some sort again. Preferably in the form of voting the douchebags out of office.
Liberals are in the minority. Proof of that is the results from the midterm election. People were sick of bush that's why they all jumped on the obama bandwagon. Now that everyone is learning who he really is, they are realizing their mistake.

axiomatik · 08-05-2011, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corbic

$250,000 is garbage. Granted it's far more then I make.

$250,000 10% toward retirement, $225,000 x taxes = $135,000 CASH

Driving 15k a year, two cars (wife) at 20mpg is ~ $6,000 a year

......

That's a great hypothetical situation of someone making more than 95% of Americans and still being broke, and it's why people in the US are in too much debt.

Now let me give you another scenario:

My wife and I have a combined gross household income of ~$115k/yr
We own a $240k house, which here in Atlanta is plenty for a nice new big house out in the suburbs or a smaller, older house more centrally located. ~$1200/mo
We pay ~$700/month on student loans
We pay ~$2000/month on childcare for our two young kids in an expensive, private preschool.
We pay all the usual utilities.
We pay the usual insurance.
No car payments, we both have older, paid off vehicles that are mostly reliable. We do have to pay for repairs every so often.
We both commute individually.
We go on vacation twice a year, once to visit family at Christmas time, once just to relax.
We contribute 10% to our retirement accounts.

And yet, we have comfortable savings. We have no credit card debt. We have enough money left over to buy the things we want. We don't have to worry about money.

Plus, next month my childcare expenses will go down by $700/month because my oldest is going into kindergarten, so I won't need full-time care. Also, My student loan payments are going down by $400/month because I just paid one off (I didn't even need to pay that much, I was paying $230/month extra just to pay it off early). So now I'm going to have an additional $1100 per month that I can do with whatever I want.

Boy, I feel so poor.

Corbic · 08-05-2011, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by axiomatik

Boy, I feel so poor.

Cool, send Uncle Sam a check for $5,000 then.

Mrpopo · 08-05-2011, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corbic

Cool, send Uncle Sam a check for $5,000 then.

There is a spot on the tax form to send extra money in.

Axio are you on 240atl?

axiomatik · 08-05-2011, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corbic

Cool, send Uncle Sam a check for $5,000 then.

My household income puts me in the top 15% in the US. Are you saying those that make more money should pay more taxes than they already are?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mrpopo

Axio are you on 240atl?

I am, but not very often. same SN.

Mrpopo · 08-05-2011, 11:40 AM

I say less taxes and less government spending

Freddy · 08-05-2011, 11:45 AM

when you guys mention 250k income, is that for the household or for just one person? Because right now I'm very surprise you guys think 250k isn't enough money. it's probably because I'm Canadian, and our lifestyles are completely different.

Corbic · 08-05-2011, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by axiomatik

My household income puts me in the top 15% in the US. Are you saying those that make more money should pay more taxes than they already are?

If you read the thread that is precisly what people are arguing. They are claiming "$250k is rich and should pay more".

I'm arguing that $250k is not "that much" money if you are a family of 4 living a contemporary life style.

At 250k, you are no fucking Rockerfeller or Kennedy, just a schmuck Dentist or stressed out Department Manager, both of whom busted as for 10-15 years to get there. Not a spoiled rotten granddaughter of a hotel empire or a fat assed whore who's daddy got a murdering celeb off for a few million.

I personally believe 25%, everyone pays. That's it. Layoff the IRS.

Government lives in budget. Cut entitlements.

SS reform. No SS Disability no survivors benefits, it's for retirement and that's it.

Privatize Medicare + Medicade. National Clinics, not National Heathcare. No state restrictions on Healthcare Insurance. No Copayment BS, back to % system.

Your plan is 15%, you pay 15% the bill.

Corbic · 08-05-2011, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy

when you guys mention 250k income, is that for the household or for just one person? Because right now I'm very surprise you guys think 250k isn't enough money. it's probably because I'm Canadian, and our lifestyles are completely different.

Household, pre taxes.

slowvia · 08-05-2011, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corbic

$250,000 is garbage. Granted it's far more then I make.

$250,000 10% toward retirement, $225,000 x taxes = $135,000 CASH

Driving 15k a year, two cars (wife) at 20mpg is ~ $6,000 a year
Average house price in 2007 was $330,000. This is a $2,784 a month Mortgage for 15 years. + PMI + PT x 12 = $39,108
Average Electric $150, Gas/Heat $180, Water/Garbage $75, Cable $125, Phones $300, $850 a month x 12 = $10,200
Average Vehicle is $30,000, $579 a month, x 2 (wife) + insurance $150 x 12 = $15,696
Home insurance - $2,200 a year
Average Student Loan payments $182 a month x 2 (you met your wife in school) 364 x 12 = $4,368
$192 per month is average cost of food per person in a family (seems really low) but that’s 4 x 192 x 12 = $9,216
Kids are reported to cost between $400 and $1,400 a month, you got two, your wealthy so they are spoiled, let's call it $1,200 x 2 x12 = $28,800
1 vacation a year, $1,800 per person x 4 = $7,200
Lawn Care - you live in a nice place, you give a damn = $1,500 a year
Home Care - $1,500 a year (that is on the cheap side)
Annual vehicle registration - $500
School Books / ect - $1,300

So this is all assuming you have 1 Wife, and two small kids, no teenagers which would add more cost for your stupid expensive clothing, cell phone plans, cars, car insurance and the constant "hey dad, spot me $20". This also does not take into account healthcare, life insurance, dental, eye-care ect. This also doesn't have all those other unexpected expensive, speeding tickets, new clothes, new tv, new ipod ext... and guess what.

Total $127,588

That leaves you $7,412 left over... but oh great, Democrats what to tax you an extra $10,000 a year cause your "rich". It's easy to think a lump of cash was "OMFG RICH" when you're a 16 year old broke ass living at home. I make Katrillionz more than I ever did in High school or College, yet I have less spending money then ever before because guess what, owning a home and taking care of business is god damn expensive.

To quote Pitbull, "Billion is the new Million"

Sorry but your projections are way wrong. My family when I was growing up brought in less than 100K a year, and we did all of that without sinking ourselves into massive debt. So you obviously have it wrong. Lawncare $1500?! More like $200 a year, pay your kid or your neighbors to mow it. Cable $125?! YOURE INSANE I pay for my cable and I can tell you it runs me $40 on top of my internet. Stop defending the rich.
You know what? Im done with this. Youre a fucking idiot and so are the rest of you defending the rich, and we will never see eye to eye, so why waste my time?
PEACE

Corbic · 08-05-2011, 12:27 PM

^

The exact attitude I'd expect from some kid from Eugene.

WISH ONE · 08-05-2011, 12:36 PM

Nowadays it seems if you have a family, house, cars, etc. and you want a decent living (especially here in SOCAL) you need to be making over 100k, and if you aren't you better hope your wife is working too.

Corbic · 08-05-2011, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WISH ONE

Nowadays it seems as if you have a family, house, cars, etc. and you want a decent living (especially here in SOCAL) you need to be making over 100k, and if you aren't you better hope your wife is working too.

What I don't get is this attitude people have that the "rich" should make less money, rather then they themselves should be making more money.

Freddy · 08-05-2011, 12:52 PM

whats the average house hold income in the USA?

axiomatik · 08-05-2011, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corbic

I personally believe 25%, everyone pays. That's it. Layoff the IRS.

Here's a breakdown of individual tax data and what they paid from 2010:

source: How Much Money Do The Top Income Earners Make By Percentage? | Financial Samurai (a conservative blog)

The top 1% of all income earners made, on average, $380k. Take a look at the last column, effective tax rate. They paid, on average, 23.27% in income taxes.

So, following your proposal, the very richest people in the country would see almost no change in their taxes, while every one else would have a dramatic increase in their taxes. Sounds like a great plan.

I do believe that the tax code needs to be greatly simplified. It is too complex, there are too many exemptions and special cases. People shouldn't have to take their taxes the H&R Block because they can't figure it out. But I also believe in a progressive tax. And I think that it should be more progressive than it is now. I am not calling for radical taxation, but I do think the top marginal rate could be 40% instead of 35%. I also find it pathetic when anyone suggests raising taxes on the wealthiest that they are immediately called a communist. It's childish and not even slightly true.

Fun fact. Reagan is often praised for cutting taxes. Do you know what he set the highest tax rate to? 50%. That's right, under Reagan, the wealthiest people in the country were paying 50% instead of the current 35%.

axiomatik · 08-05-2011, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy

whats the average house hold income in the USA?

According to wikipedia the average household income in the US is $44,389.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Househo..._United_States

Corbic · 08-05-2011, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by axiomatik

Here's a breakdown of individual tax data and what they paid from 2010:

source: How Much Money Do The Top Income Earners Make By Percentage? | Financial Samurai (a conservative blog)

The top 1% of all income earners made, on average, $380k. Take a look at the last column, effective tax rate. They paid, on average, 23.27% in income taxes.

So, following your proposal, the very richest people in the country would see almost no change in their taxes, while every one else would have a dramatic increase in their taxes. Sounds like a great plan.

The Richest people in this country don't need SS, Medicare, Medicaid, Government Health Care, Subsidized Housing, Subsidized food, Food stamps, free schools, Student loans, Turtle Bridges, Tattoo Removal, Study of Gay Men in Miami, Subsidized Home Insurance because they live on the flood plane ext.

The Bottom 50%, you pay nothing (as they get that 2% back in their tax returns) however they are the ones receiving (and demanding) all the government spending. They are the ones needing benefits, entitlements and jobs.

They vote, and they demand more and more and more. This is why this country is in a spending crisis. You just can't keep giving away. We've had almost 60 years of entitlements and welfare and the underclass is still there. I would argue that these entitlement programs actually hurt the communities and groups more than they help.

These people need to contribute just like everyone else. They need to be part of the system, not just the screaming mob of "votes". That way the answer is not "make those rich fucks pay for it" its "wow, if we do that, that rich fuck will have to pay an extra $1000, but I'm still be out $100... fuck that"

Also, 25% and thats it. The chart you show is straight income, not SS, Medical, State, County, and City. The Government as a whole gets 25% off the top and thats it. Divide it as you please, 15 to the Feds, 13 to the state, 2 to the local?

I'd also ditch the whole deductibles. You have four kids? You should pay more, not less. After all, those kids are getting free school, busing, healthcare so forth...

WISH ONE · 08-05-2011, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corbic

What I don't get is this attitude people have that the "rich" should make less money, rather then they themselves should be making more money.

I totally agree, that whole point of view is a huge copout.
Work hard, play hard.

TheWolf · 08-06-2011, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corbic

What I don't get is this attitude people have that the "rich" should make less money, rather then they themselves should be making more money.

It's a product of class warfare rhetoric. Not only do the rich need to pay more taxes but they should take a pay cut because the middle class and poor don't make enough. Oh and they need to hire more people regardless of whether they need another employee and all the taxes it brings. CEO's make to much.. Business owners make to much.. shareholders make to much.. 250kers make to much.. and it trickles down as the vitriol gets more intense.

The opposite of his policies seems so ridiculous but it shows what a polar extreme he's out on. "Why doesn't the president have a "thank the rich guy day" where the bottom 50% of the population thanks the rich guy for paying for all their crap."

As the poor base expands their need for social services outpaces their contributions to pay for them. The rich are doing fine, if the poor would pay more then we wouldn't be in this mess. Property taxes are starting to show this in many counties as the municipal system can't afford to run schools even after taking out a ridiculous amount of taxes.

imotion s14 · 08-08-2011, 01:07 AM

It's the idea of Zero-Sum Economics. That's where the idea of the "rich get richer the poor get poorer" axiom comes from. ZSE is the belief that the economic pie is fixed and that if you take more than your "fair" share it's because you deprived someone else of their share. No wealth is created.

Of course it's bullshit. 600 years ago all the wealth in the world couldn't buy you a calculator or anything we have in our modern world. The King of England had to shit in a pot and them some poor fool had to dump it out. THE KING! Now even the the poorest family has running water.

People confuse wealth with money. Wealth is measured with currency but wealth is not money. Wealth is the abundance of products. We have create more wealth in a single day than the entire productive history of man up to the industrial revolution.

Corbic · 08-08-2011, 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by imotion s14

People confuse wealth with money. Wealth is measured with currency but wealth is not money. Wealth is the abundance of products. We have create more wealth in a single day than the entire productive history of man up to the industrial revolution.

Not to mention the poorest people in America live better than 50% of the works wealthiest people.

Your own single family Trailer with plumbing, '95 Grand Am, cricket phone, PS1, 28" TV, free TV programing, window A/C, McDonalds 3 meals a day....

Hmmm I think your living better that Somali Warlords or and many East Europeans.

codyace · 08-08-2011, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheWolf

As the poor base expands their need for social services outpaces their contributions to pay for them. The rich are doing fine, if the poor would pay more then we wouldn't be in this mess. Property taxes are starting to show this in many counties as the municipal system can't afford to run schools even after taking out a ridiculous amount of taxes.

Without a doubt I do believe if they taxed the poor appropriatly, instead of giving them so many breaks, that they'd naturally look for jobs. Contrary though, it may cause them to look into crime as well. Hard to say.

Corbic · 08-08-2011, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codyace

Without a doubt I do believe if they taxed the poor appropriatly, instead of giving them so many breaks, that they'd naturally look for jobs. Contrary though, it may cause them to look into crime as well. Hard to say.

Well that would create law enforcement jobs...

Then again legalize drugs, tax the piss out of that cha-chinge.

It'll reduce LE + Correctional spending by 80% and bring in billions.

bb4_96 · 08-08-2011, 11:26 AM

If we could get away from the s word we could put people reaping the benifits of public aid to work on public works. Labor costs of public works projects are fucking insane. That would cut the spending.

Corbic · 08-08-2011, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bb4_96

If we could get away from the s word we could put people reaping the benifits of public aid to work on public works. Labor costs of public works projects are fucking insane. That would cut the spending.

The problem is public projects are so incompetent, so inept and such massive beurocratic nightmares that it's always cheaper to have private industry do it.

Once you create a job or program in the government, it never goes away.

bb4_96 · 08-08-2011, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corbic

The problem is public projects are so incompetent, so inept and such massive beurocratic nightmares that it's always cheaper to have private industry do it.

Once you create a job or program in the government, it never goes away.

Having to get off your ass and do something to continue your lifestyle serves a greater purpose than accomplishing something. At that point why not get a job? Where's the loss? Even if nothing gets accomplished the benifits are already paid.

I hope if a program is created to make the nation less dependent and lazy it never goes away.

Corbic · 08-08-2011, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bb4_96

Having to get off your ass and do something to continue your lifestyle serves a greater purpose than accomplishing something. At that point why not get a job? Where's the loss? Even if nothing gets accomplished the benifits are already paid.

I hope if a program is created to make the nation less dependent and lazy it never goes away.

Or we just stop giving out handouts. People are still getting money for Katrina.

bb4_96 · 08-08-2011, 12:04 PM

I didn't specify a specific type of aid

08-05-2011, 12:36 PM	#104
WISH ONE Post Whore! Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: orange county ca Posts: 2,738 Trader Rating: (13) Feedback Score: 13 reviews	Nowadays it seems if you have a family, house, cars, etc. and you want a decent living (especially here in SOCAL) you need to be making over 100k, and if you aren't you better hope your wife is working too. __________________ PARTING/SELLING MY COUPE. PM ME.

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08-05-2011, 10:16 AM	#93
Mrpopo Zilvia Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Gwinnett, GA Age: 41 Posts: 293 Trader Rating: (5) Feedback Score: 5 reviews	Axio you are living proof that liberalism is a mental disorder. Over taxing and the government not listening to the people is the reason there was a revolution in this country. I have friends from north Korea, Cuba, Venezuela, and Iran they all fled to this country because of what it is and what it represents. This is the best country in the world. When the government starts oppressing the people in this country, we will have a revolt of some sort again. Preferably in the form of voting the douchebags out of office. Liberals are in the minority. Proof of that is the results from the midterm election. People were sick of bush that's why they all jumped on the obama bandwagon. Now that everyone is learning who he really is, they are realizing their mistake.

08-05-2011, 11:40 AM	#98
Mrpopo Zilvia Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Gwinnett, GA Age: 41 Posts: 293 Trader Rating: (5) Feedback Score: 5 reviews	I say less taxes and less government spending

08-05-2011, 11:45 AM	#99
Freddy Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Age: 32 Posts: 568 Trader Rating: (2) Feedback Score: 2 reviews	when you guys mention 250k income, is that for the household or for just one person? Because right now I'm very surprise you guys think 250k isn't enough money. it's probably because I'm Canadian, and our lifestyles are completely different.

08-05-2011, 12:27 PM	#103
Corbic Post Whore! Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: US Age: 37 Posts: 8,027 Trader Rating: (8) Feedback Score: 8 reviews	^ The exact attitude I'd expect from some kid from Eugene.

08-05-2011, 12:52 PM	#106
Freddy Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Age: 32 Posts: 568 Trader Rating: (2) Feedback Score: 2 reviews	whats the average house hold income in the USA?

08-08-2011, 01:07 AM	#112
imotion s14 Zilvia Addict Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Houston, TX Age: 40 Posts: 713 Trader Rating: (5) Feedback Score: 5 reviews	It's the idea of Zero-Sum Economics. That's where the idea of the "rich get richer the poor get poorer" axiom comes from. ZSE is the belief that the economic pie is fixed and that if you take more than your "fair" share it's because you deprived someone else of their share. No wealth is created. Of course it's bullshit. 600 years ago all the wealth in the world couldn't buy you a calculator or anything we have in our modern world. The King of England had to shit in a pot and them some poor fool had to dump it out. THE KING! Now even the the poorest family has running water. People confuse wealth with money. Wealth is measured with currency but wealth is not money. Wealth is the abundance of products. We have create more wealth in a single day than the entire productive history of man up to the industrial revolution.

08-08-2011, 11:26 AM	#116
bb4_96 Zilvia Addict Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Under my car Posts: 785 Trader Rating: (4) Feedback Score: 4 reviews	If we could get away from the s word we could put people reaping the benifits of public aid to work on public works. Labor costs of public works projects are fucking insane. That would cut the spending.

08-08-2011, 12:04 PM	#120
bb4_96 Zilvia Addict Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Under my car Posts: 785 Trader Rating: (4) Feedback Score: 4 reviews	I didn't specify a specific type of aid