This is the roll center, suspension pickup, and steering angle modification thread. - Page 63 - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

PoorMans180SX · 10-26-2010, 09:44 AM

So why did you do that? Just because the tires are rubbing?

And are those metal?

Metal bumpstops = really bad.

Not only can it do damage to the damper, when you hit it, your spring rate will suddenly go to infinity, possibly causing you to lose control.

SoSideways · 10-26-2010, 10:09 AM

Looks like the wheels will compress like an inch to inch and a half before hitting those bumpstops...

Argh...

SicBastard · 10-26-2010, 10:32 AM

Please tell me there are poly bushings between your shock body and those stops!

What you need to do is pull the springs, wrap a zip tie around your damper shaft and see what the highest point the shock body travels to on compression before it hits the wheel well. Then buy some micro-cellular polyurethane bump stops. and stack/trim them down to stop the shock body movement at the point that was located by the zip tie.

As was mentioned before the point is to have a controlled progression of spring rate as you bottom out. Not to go directly from 7k to Infinity. You will loose control.

These are cheap:

https://www.circletracksupply.com/pr...1&cat=0&page=4

Also, if you're 3 wheeling, you are running too much anti-roll bar on the end of the car that's lifting.

PoorMans180SX · 10-26-2010, 10:42 AM

He still has the Tein bump stops underneath the dust boots.

What you should really do is get a big hammer and pound the wheel wells. No sense in reducing suspension travel just to solve a little rubbing.

SicBastard · 10-26-2010, 10:53 AM

In that case, clean solution.

Air-Hammer FTW!!!

s14unimog · 10-26-2010, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

And are those metal?
Metal bumpstops = really bad.

really....? translucent metal?

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

He still has the Tein bump stops underneath the dust boots.

some body was reading... still confused with your first comment though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SicBastard

Please tell me there are poly bushings between your shock body and those stops!
What you need to do is pull the springs, wrap a zip tie around your damper shaft and see what the highest point the shock body travels to on compression before it hits the wheel well. Then buy some micro-cellular polyurethane bump stops. and stack/trim them down to stop the shock body movement at the point that was located by the zip tie. Also, if you're 3 wheeling, you are running too much anti-roll bar on the end of the car that's lifting.

you obviously didn't read that I have the Tein poly stops under the dust boot.... they are actually softer than the poly we're used to in control arm bushings. Please don't suggest I randomly created the length of my stops... why do you think I put the assembly back on the car without the spring...?

I only three wheel when I traverse an uneven surface. My suspension has much more travel than most of you guys; at the ride height you're showing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZxkbEBwKQ0

PoorMans180SX · 10-26-2010, 11:18 AM

Haha, nice vid.

But like I said. Just get a hammer back there and beat on the inner fenderwell a bit.

Rubbing solved. Still have full suspension travel.

s14unimog · 10-26-2010, 11:24 AM

if you consider the length of the exposed shock shaft and the height of the bump stop under the boot, you would almost have to be at stock height to get those to bottom out; that or run smaller wheels. Plus you would have to jump the car, to bottom them out.

I did that video to prove to a Jeep guy that a clutch type diff can provide a full 100% lock... He assured me it wasn't possible. I felt an example was in order.

PoorMans180SX · 10-26-2010, 11:31 AM

I know it only rubs when you three wheel, but I'd rather have that travel and not use it then limit the travel and have something happen where I needed it.

Do you just not like the idea of the hammer?

SoSideways · 10-26-2010, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by s14unimog

I only three wheel when I traverse an uneven surface. My suspension has much more travel than most of you guys; at the ride height you're showing.

Your suspension don't have THAT much travel, although compared to most guys on zilvia, yeah, sure.

Get some tender springs and and you'll get another two inches or more droop, and your wheel would be touching the ground there, on both sides.

s14unimog · 10-26-2010, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

Well are your tires still rubbing? If not then you're limiting travel. Because clearly the suspension was using that travel in some situations. Now in those same situations you'll hit the bump stops, probably causing the car to hop. Not good for traction or predictability.I'm just saying, i'd rather have that travel and not use it then limit the travel and have something happen where I needed it.

they're not but like I said its not very often I would ever rub unless I was traversing uneven surfaces. Not to mention this is ONLY a problem with a 245/40 and not to mention, I'm only running ~-1* of camber in the rear. This is far safer than bottoming out the tire on the wheel well. You don't think a stiffer setup would hope too? I've chosen a more stable arrangment than those who become air born when cresting small bumps....

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoSideways

Your suspension don't have THAT much travel, although compared to most guys on zilvia, yeah, sure.

we're speaking in relative terms here.... I would say my Jeep has just over 20"

Get some tender springs and and you'll get another two inches or more droop, and your wheel would be touching the ground there, on both sides.

I know but its quite a feat to get into my garage. I think this is more than acceptable when faced against such a change in surfaces.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

I know it only rubs when you three wheel, but I'd rather have that travel and not use it then limit the travel and have something happen where I needed it. Do you just not like the idea of the hammer?

Then why slam your car? These are the sacrifices we make with a lowered car, I think you've actually said that before in here. I've limited travel, as compared to when I would rub, by only an additional 3/8" for tread clearance; this is not a huge sacrifice. Besides, that part of the fender will not stretch well and could cause the outer skin to buckle. The clear solution is over flares, and to just remove that area. We all know there isn't that much room back there. The problem is that I prefer sheet metal back there encase I blow a tire. I use this car for drifting btw...

nathanong87 · 10-26-2010, 12:08 PM

most aggressive driveway angle entry i've ever seen

s14unimog · 10-26-2010, 12:21 PM

^ tell me about it... If it didn't involve me spending a few thousand to fix, I would have done something about it. At least I can get in and out without dragging. Just have to do it just like that.

PoorMans180SX · 10-26-2010, 12:47 PM

Because a low center of gravity with a corrected roll center is awesome.

I would rather have my chassis scrape the ground then my suspension bottom out.

Heat it up. Hit it with a hammer. It'll stretch.

nieko · 10-26-2010, 12:54 PM

I should take a picture of me wheel wells...

shit is amazing. LOL

and doesnt that 3 wheel jazz also happen when you run a bunch of preload?

I remember when i first got my coils a few years ago and i had no idea how they worked i gave them a bunch of preload and i would 3 wheel going up the smallest thing lolol

now i have 0 preload and that shit stays on the ground like always. and its the car in my sig lolol

s14unimog · 10-26-2010, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

Because a low center of gravity with a corrected roll center is awesome. I would rather have my chassis scrape the ground then my suspension bottom out. Heat it up. Hit it with a hammer. It'll stretch.

I can see that, but there is a limit and I would prefer to have better ground contact and more suspension travel than bounce all over the road. We'll agree to disagree on what should hit first. I'd rather not hit the chassis on the ground. More clearance isn't necessary, this is a compromise I've made. You have yours and your car will act uniquely different than mine.

this is 3rd gear on a slanted bank, and I still wouldn't bottom out. Like I said, the car is quite predictable responsive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nieko

and doesnt that 3 wheel jazz also happen when you run a bunch of preload?

5mm... Just as Tein outlines.

DC Dan MAX USA · 10-26-2010, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 95KA-Turbo

My friend made the knuckles. Are you saying I could get the same angle, but have proper alignment with the tie rod if I had a different angle on the tie rod pick up on the spindle?

as you can see our Super angle knuckle kit points the tie rod end in the opposite direction as yours, which lowers ackerman, lowers your chances of over centering and for sure we achieve alignment albeit with a longer than average tie rod.

SoSideways · 10-26-2010, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DC Dan MAX USA

as you can see our Super angle knuckle kit points the tie rod end in the opposite direction as yours, which lowers ackerman, lowers your chances of over centering and for sure we achieve alignment albeit with a longer than average tie rod.

That's how mine is too.

After experimenting with the stock knuckles, I have come to the conclusion that to achieve more angle while reducing the chance of over centering, you need to move the tie rod end pickup points OUTWARD from the stock location, that way it will achieve more angle at the wheel, but at the same time increase the angle between the tie rod and the steering arm on the knuckle, thus reducing the change that they will line up enough to cause over centering.

az_240 · 10-26-2010, 08:22 PM

*oh I see what you mean

95KA-Turbo · 10-26-2010, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DC Dan MAX USA

as you can see our Super angle knuckle kit points the tie rod end in the opposite direction as yours, which lowers ackerman, lowers your chances of over centering and for sure we achieve alignment albeit with a longer than average tie rod.

The angle compared to the ball joint appears to be the same direction as mine - you just don't have the bend in the knuckle that I see in my picture...and yours looks to be angled more. Am I looking at the wrong thing?

Razi · 10-27-2010, 02:11 AM

Just did a bit of modification this week, corrected it as much as I could by messing with the Godspeed hardware.
I replaced the inner rod end with some QA1 bearings, but the outer ones are the stock Godspeed ones.
The outer bearings are pretty stiff though, do you guys think they'll work themselves looser as I drive it?

Maybe I should just replace the outer bearing and use a bolt as well...

SoSideways · 10-27-2010, 07:30 AM

It might loosen itself, it's hard to tell.

What you can do, is press those bearings out, measure their O.D. (I have one sitting in front of me right now, but chances are, these things are so shitty that they're not the same O.D. batch to batch, so you're better off measuring your own, plus I don't have my caliper in front of me right now lol), then soak them sons of bitches in PB Blaster over night.

Then measure the I.D. of the bearing mounting cup. You should find that it's so shitty that it's out of round. Then from there, just try to open up the cup a bit, to within .0002" of the GS bearing's O.D., that way the bearing will pop right in with a very light press.

Once the bearing is back in, just take a breaker bar, or an extension for ratchet/sockets, and just work the bearing around.

Part of the issue with these bearings is that, they're in such an undersized bearing cup, that is out of round, that it's literally squeezing the bearing's race, thus preventing it from moving freely. That, and the bearing themselves are a little bit stiff to begin with as well.

Def · 10-27-2010, 09:05 AM

Yep, my chinapseed arms were so much of a press fit the cheap steel of the bearing races actually "smeared" as they pressed it in with a 30T press or whatever. They only came out with lots of cursing and lots of heat. Snapped my bench vise in two as well on one of them... Grrrr...

Opening up the cups a bit definitely helps the bearings at least sorta rotate.

Razi · 10-27-2010, 02:09 PM

Hmm, that was my sneaking suspicion since the guy that made his own arms had problems like these when he pushed his bearings in.

I guess I'm gonna mess with this some more this weekend!

singlecamslam · 10-27-2010, 02:50 PM

Using a harbor freight 1.5'' wire brush actually opens the chinaspeed arms really well since the metal is so soft. Try that.

ka-titties · 10-27-2010, 03:11 PM

oh snap really? i paid $30 for some metal shaving bits from sears.

SoSideways · 10-27-2010, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by singlecamslam

Using a harbor freight 1.5'' wire brush actually opens the chinaspeed arms really well since the metal is so soft. Try that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ka-titties

oh snap really? i paid $30 for some metal shaving bits from sears.

I used the 60 grit replaceable sanding drums for a Dremel at 8000rpm.

Small enough to maneuver and small enough to really work on one spot to bring it back to round. You can also go all the way down to the bottom of the cup with it too.

singlecamslam · 10-27-2010, 03:43 PM

the reason why i like the wire brush is because its easy to get a round hole, and it takes off metal slowly, took me about 3 tries to get to 1.498''. Worked good for me and coster like 2 dollars.

SoSideways · 10-27-2010, 03:47 PM

Meh... either way.

So are your's seriously in the dumpster but still sitting around? Or have they been picked up by the trash people already?

I'm asking because I want to see if those cups can be opened up for the bigger bearings that I wanted to run without any ill effects, or if it will make the cups too thin, and thus dangerous to do so.

If you still had those arms sitting around, I was gonna see about taking them off your hands for this purpose.

Def · 10-27-2010, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by singlecamslam

the reason why i like the wire brush is because its easy to get a round hole, and it takes off metal slowly, took me about 3 tries to get to 1.498''. Worked good for me and coster like 2 dollars.

Yep, it's slow material removal with the wire brush, that's how I did it. Gives a nice circular hole.

10-26-2010, 09:44 AM	#1861
PoorMans180SX Zilvia.net Advertiser Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Michigan Age: 33 Posts: 5,431 Trader Rating: (16) Rides Gallery: PoorMans180SX Feedback Score: 16 reviews	So why did you do that? Just because the tires are rubbing? And are those metal? Metal bumpstops = really bad. Not only can it do damage to the damper, when you hit it, your spring rate will suddenly go to infinity, possibly causing you to lose control. __________________ Build: http://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=643065 Friends don't let friends buy knock-offs.

10-26-2010, 10:09 AM	#1862
SoSideways Post Whore! Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 你老母 Posts: 4,371 Trader Rating: (4) Feedback Score: 4 reviews	Looks like the wheels will compress like an inch to inch and a half before hitting those bumpstops... Argh... __________________ SoSideway's iTrader Rating!! *SoSideways' Review Thread!!* http://sosideways.wordpress.com/

10-26-2010, 10:32 AM	#1863
SicBastard Zilvia Addict Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: New York, NY Posts: 803 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Please tell me there are poly bushings between your shock body and those stops! What you need to do is pull the springs, wrap a zip tie around your damper shaft and see what the highest point the shock body travels to on compression before it hits the wheel well. Then buy some micro-cellular polyurethane bump stops. and stack/trim them down to stop the shock body movement at the point that was located by the zip tie. As was mentioned before the point is to have a controlled progression of spring rate as you bottom out. Not to go directly from 7k to Infinity. You will loose control. These are cheap: https://www.circletracksupply.com/pr...1&cat=0&page=4 Also, if you're 3 wheeling, you are running too much anti-roll bar on the end of the car that's lifting. __________________ BURN OUT IN YOUR FACE! 1998 S14 LS7/T56 swap in progress, build thread: http://zilvia.net/f/tech-talk/147301...d-gto-pan.html

10-26-2010, 10:42 AM	#1864
PoorMans180SX Zilvia.net Advertiser Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Michigan Age: 33 Posts: 5,431 Trader Rating: (16) Rides Gallery: PoorMans180SX Feedback Score: 16 reviews	He still has the Tein bump stops underneath the dust boots. What you should really do is get a big hammer and pound the wheel wells. No sense in reducing suspension travel just to solve a little rubbing. __________________ Build: http://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=643065 Friends don't let friends buy knock-offs.

10-26-2010, 10:53 AM	#1865
SicBastard Zilvia Addict Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: New York, NY Posts: 803 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	In that case, clean solution. Air-Hammer FTW!!! __________________ BURN OUT IN YOUR FACE! 1998 S14 LS7/T56 swap in progress, build thread: http://zilvia.net/f/tech-talk/147301...d-gto-pan.html

10-26-2010, 11:18 AM	#1867
PoorMans180SX Zilvia.net Advertiser Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Michigan Age: 33 Posts: 5,431 Trader Rating: (16) Rides Gallery: PoorMans180SX Feedback Score: 16 reviews	Haha, nice vid. But like I said. Just get a hammer back there and beat on the inner fenderwell a bit. Rubbing solved. Still have full suspension travel. __________________ Build: http://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=643065 Friends don't let friends buy knock-offs.

10-26-2010, 11:24 AM	#1868
s14unimog Nissanaholic! Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: In a place, near a river, over a lake Age: 34 Posts: 2,415 Trader Rating: (22) Rides Gallery: s14unimog Feedback Score: 22 reviews	if you consider the length of the exposed shock shaft and the height of the bump stop under the boot, you would almost have to be at stock height to get those to bottom out; that or run smaller wheels. Plus you would have to jump the car, to bottom them out. I did that video to prove to a Jeep guy that a clutch type diff can provide a full 100% lock... He assured me it wasn't possible. I felt an example was in order. __________________ Fuking ginger bread man stole my wallet... SHIFT*lock_slide to side d3m3rs0n: if i have a baby im naming it Brandons Fault Emerson

10-26-2010, 11:31 AM	#1869
PoorMans180SX Zilvia.net Advertiser Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Michigan Age: 33 Posts: 5,431 Trader Rating: (16) Rides Gallery: PoorMans180SX Feedback Score: 16 reviews	I know it only rubs when you three wheel, but I'd rather have that travel and not use it then limit the travel and have something happen where I needed it. Do you just not like the idea of the hammer? __________________ Build: http://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=643065 Friends don't let friends buy knock-offs.

10-26-2010, 12:08 PM	#1872
nathanong87 Post Whore! Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: maryland Age: 33 Posts: 5,182 Trader Rating: (6) Feedback Score: 6 reviews	most aggressive driveway angle entry i've ever seen __________________ IG @nathanong87 --- Night ★ Life natelife.tumblr.com

10-26-2010, 12:21 PM	#1873
s14unimog Nissanaholic! Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: In a place, near a river, over a lake Age: 34 Posts: 2,415 Trader Rating: (22) Rides Gallery: s14unimog Feedback Score: 22 reviews	^ tell me about it... If it didn't involve me spending a few thousand to fix, I would have done something about it. At least I can get in and out without dragging. Just have to do it just like that. __________________ Fuking ginger bread man stole my wallet... SHIFT*lock_slide to side d3m3rs0n: if i have a baby im naming it Brandons Fault Emerson

10-26-2010, 12:47 PM	#1874
PoorMans180SX Zilvia.net Advertiser Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Michigan Age: 33 Posts: 5,431 Trader Rating: (16) Rides Gallery: PoorMans180SX Feedback Score: 16 reviews	Because a low center of gravity with a corrected roll center is awesome. I would rather have my chassis scrape the ground then my suspension bottom out. Heat it up. Hit it with a hammer. It'll stretch. __________________ Build: http://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=643065 Friends don't let friends buy knock-offs.

10-26-2010, 12:54 PM	#1875
nieko Post Whore! Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Westminster Age: 30 Posts: 2,694 Trader Rating: (14) Feedback Score: 14 reviews	I should take a picture of me wheel wells... shit is amazing. LOL and doesnt that 3 wheel jazz also happen when you run a bunch of preload? I remember when i first got my coils a few years ago and i had no idea how they worked i gave them a bunch of preload and i would 3 wheel going up the smallest thing lolol now i have 0 preload and that shit stays on the ground like always. and its the car in my sig lolol __________________

10-26-2010, 08:22 PM	#1879
az_240 Post Whore! Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Phx Posts: 3,097 Trader Rating: (41) Feedback Score: 41 reviews	oh I see what you mean Last edited by az_240; 10-27-2010 at 02:27 AM..*

10-27-2010, 02:11 AM	#1881
Razi Zilvia Addict Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Corona Posts: 630 Trader Rating: (12) Feedback Score: 12 reviews	Just did a bit of modification this week, corrected it as much as I could by messing with the Godspeed hardware. I replaced the inner rod end with some QA1 bearings, but the outer ones are the stock Godspeed ones. The outer bearings are pretty stiff though, do you guys think they'll work themselves looser as I drive it? Maybe I should just replace the outer bearing and use a bolt as well...

10-27-2010, 07:30 AM	#1882
SoSideways Post Whore! Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 你老母 Posts: 4,371 Trader Rating: (4) Feedback Score: 4 reviews	It might loosen itself, it's hard to tell. What you can do, is press those bearings out, measure their O.D. (I have one sitting in front of me right now, but chances are, these things are so shitty that they're not the same O.D. batch to batch, so you're better off measuring your own, plus I don't have my caliper in front of me right now lol), then soak them sons of bitches in PB Blaster over night. Then measure the I.D. of the bearing mounting cup. You should find that it's so shitty that it's out of round. Then from there, just try to open up the cup a bit, to within .0002" of the GS bearing's O.D., that way the bearing will pop right in with a very light press. Once the bearing is back in, just take a breaker bar, or an extension for ratchet/sockets, and just work the bearing around. Part of the issue with these bearings is that, they're in such an undersized bearing cup, that is out of round, that it's literally squeezing the bearing's race, thus preventing it from moving freely. That, and the bearing themselves are a little bit stiff to begin with as well. __________________ SoSideway's iTrader Rating!! *SoSideways' Review Thread!!* http://sosideways.wordpress.com/

10-27-2010, 09:05 AM	#1883
Def Post Whore! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 2,701 Trader Rating: (16) Feedback Score: 16 reviews	Yep, my chinapseed arms were so much of a press fit the cheap steel of the bearing races actually "smeared" as they pressed it in with a 30T press or whatever. They only came out with lots of cursing and lots of heat. Snapped my bench vise in two as well on one of them... Grrrr... Opening up the cups a bit definitely helps the bearings at least sorta rotate. __________________ S13 Hatch - Goes around tracks quickly DEFSPORT

10-27-2010, 02:09 PM	#1884
Razi Zilvia Addict Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Corona Posts: 630 Trader Rating: (12) Feedback Score: 12 reviews	Hmm, that was my sneaking suspicion since the guy that made his own arms had problems like these when he pushed his bearings in. I guess I'm gonna mess with this some more this weekend!

10-27-2010, 02:50 PM	#1885
singlecamslam Post Whore! Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Norcal Posts: 2,531 Trader Rating: (10) Feedback Score: 10 reviews	Using a harbor freight 1.5'' wire brush actually opens the chinaspeed arms really well since the metal is so soft. Try that. __________________ Nothing says racecar like a stock car with no interior.

10-27-2010, 03:11 PM	#1886
ka-titties Zilvia FREAK! Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Near that guy you know Posts: 1,561 Trader Rating: (11) Feedback Score: 11 reviews	oh snap really? i paid $30 for some metal shaving bits from sears.

10-27-2010, 03:43 PM	#1888
singlecamslam Post Whore! Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Norcal Posts: 2,531 Trader Rating: (10) Feedback Score: 10 reviews	the reason why i like the wire brush is because its easy to get a round hole, and it takes off metal slowly, took me about 3 tries to get to 1.498''. Worked good for me and coster like 2 dollars. __________________ Nothing says racecar like a stock car with no interior.

10-27-2010, 03:47 PM	#1889
SoSideways Post Whore! Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 你老母 Posts: 4,371 Trader Rating: (4) Feedback Score: 4 reviews	Meh... either way. So are your's seriously in the dumpster but still sitting around? Or have they been picked up by the trash people already? I'm asking because I want to see if those cups can be opened up for the bigger bearings that I wanted to run without any ill effects, or if it will make the cups too thin, and thus dangerous to do so. If you still had those arms sitting around, I was gonna see about taking them off your hands for this purpose. __________________ SoSideway's iTrader Rating!! *SoSideways' Review Thread!!* http://sosideways.wordpress.com/

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