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Tech Talk Technical Discussion About The Nissan 240SX and Nissan Z Cars |
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09-21-2011, 06:30 AM | #3151 |
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mikerbike, it looks like you have a quite a bit of ackerman. This doesn't help your caster wobble or overcentering.
PSM knuckles look awesome! Looking forward to your impression.
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09-21-2011, 07:58 AM | #3152 | |
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I thought you were standing in front of the car when you took those pics. |
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09-21-2011, 03:30 PM | #3155 |
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(not my pic)
This is my only concern about offset rack spacers... increased stress. Though some people use them with no problems. I played it safe and got the crossmember modified(rack moved forward) instead... was pretty cheap to have done locally. |
09-21-2011, 04:07 PM | #3156 |
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Do you mean ackerman? Because they can do their "Pro drift knuckle mod" which is very little ackerman or "Pro grip knuckle mod" which is stock ackerman and steering arm length with 45mm roll correction.
This is after he hit something, no?
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09-21-2011, 09:52 PM | #3157 |
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Found that in a thread on ziptied...Not sure if he hit something.... says he's been through a few racks from using offset spacers and that is what he did to the last one... others have had problems with bent tie rods. It makes sense since the stress/force is no longer being applied straight on the rack.
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09-22-2011, 01:24 AM | #3158 | |
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Either those or the tie rods. Come on MAX. Last edited by Matej; 09-22-2011 at 02:33 AM.. |
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09-22-2011, 09:59 AM | #3160 |
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I know. As I decreased ackerman, (by moving the lower ball joints back) the potential to over center at full lock increased. I could see it happening, I just didn't know if it would be a problem. So now I plan to move the inner tie rod forward instead of lenghtening my tension rods.
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09-22-2011, 10:38 AM | #3161 | |
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And let's all agree here, the leading wheel in drift is the outside wheel with the most angle. Calling it anything else is backwards as heck.
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09-22-2011, 11:26 AM | #3162 |
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Well yeah.
That's why most people preface their "leading wheel" with either "drift" or "grip" references. Like, "the leading wheel while in drift" or "the leading wheel while grip driving". It's almost like giving people your wheels' offset without the width to go with it. |
09-22-2011, 03:23 PM | #3163 | |
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The way to change that line is moving the inner tie rod forward. Changing the angle of the following wheel in drift won't change the relationship between the tie rod and lower ball joint on the leading wheel in drift . |
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09-22-2011, 04:07 PM | #3164 | |
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And the rack didn't break due to a crash.
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09-22-2011, 08:15 PM | #3165 | ||
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09-22-2011, 09:30 PM | #3167 |
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I remember reading a thread and he posted a pic of a busted rack just like that, but it was due to the offset steering rack bushings iirc.
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09-23-2011, 08:38 AM | #3168 | |
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Have any of you drift cats tried reverse ackermann angle? It makes a lot of sense why Nakamura uses it, the inner wheel has to steer more than the outer wheel Heres a drawing I made to illustrate it: And Naoki Nakamura: Here's some light reading on a steering lock kit developed by my college's lector for e30-e36 BMWs Link to wisefab kit with english description Last edited by Motary; 09-23-2011 at 09:24 AM.. |
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09-23-2011, 11:48 AM | #3169 |
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edit:
nvermind
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09-23-2011, 09:43 PM | #3170 | ||
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Secondly, I highly doubt Nakamura uses reverse ackerman, because it's terrible for self-steer. Also, with the amount of angle his leading wheel gets at Meihan, his trailing wheel would be smashing into the roll bar and tension rod. I think that picture is an optical illusion. Also, the leading wheel is much more loaded than the trailing, and the reason you decrease ackerman in the first place is to get more angle, help overcentering, and just plain stop the back wheel from dragging. That kit for the 3-series looks pretty cool!
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09-24-2011, 03:14 AM | #3171 |
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I think you are mistaken, I also thought this way that the wheel that is more loaded has more grip, but all it does while drifting is cause understeer and tyre wear. This is because the instant center of the corner is not inside the corner as it would be while grip driving, but on the outside since you counter steering. Once I get my S13 going again, I will give this a try and share my results here.
Paul Vlasblom describing the driving: Video |
09-24-2011, 09:28 AM | #3172 | |
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However, it would severely limit your angle unless you removed your sway bar and moved your tension rod inboard a lot. But hey, maybe it'll work for you; I look forward to your results! Those video's make me want to buy an E36, just so I can buy that kit.
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09-25-2011, 04:19 AM | #3173 |
i bought the geomasters for my s15 and they dont have a hole for the abs sensor has anyone had this problem and over come it? i think i just need to find a place to drill a hole into the knuckles and mount the sensor
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09-25-2011, 09:13 PM | #3175 | |
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I have 2 S13s. Both have same coilovers, same knuckle mods, same banged stopper on the FLCA, same front camber, *close rear camber. The two differences are: -Front wheel width/offset. The car I have been posting in this thread (black car) has 17x9 +9. The white car has 17x9.5 +12. So there's close to a 1/2" more clearance to the tension rod and sway bar for the drift trailing wheel. -MAX rack spacers. Like I said, as I lengthen the tension rod, i gained drift trailing wheel angle, but started to lose drift leading wheel angle as the inner tie rod would stop on the rack. I couldn't lengthen the tension rod as far on the white car because the wheel would hit the sway bar at full lock drift trailing and I didn't have another pair of rack spacers to combat the inner tie rod stopping on the rack. So.. The white car doesn't get the wobble. The black car didn't get the wobble until I lengthened the tension rod, changing the angle of the inner tie rod to the ball joint. Now, at full lock, the drift leading wheel is visually close to overcentering. But it wouldn't be if the inner tie rod was an inch further forward (rack relocation or offset rack spacers.) In your opinion, am I still on the wrong track? |
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09-26-2011, 12:06 AM | #3176 |
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I also got the wobble after lengthening my tension rods so I had 6.2 caster. I will just be aligning the car back to 7.2 caster as My limiting factor for angle was my sway bar then and still is so I will not be loosing angle. I am aligning the car wednesday and hopefully I will get rid of that horrible wobble. Which also happens to load up my ps pump and make me boil the shit out of my res.
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09-26-2011, 01:22 AM | #3177 |
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Mike, curious that you mention your white car got a wobble after lengthening the tension rod, and decreasing caster, same thing that happened to patrick. If all of your knuckle mods and everything else was the same then its the decreased caster is your problem. Positive caster will help with high speed stability and steering wheel return, so the lower caster willl cause an unstable wobble feeling. I may be wrong but i feel this is your issue. It may have other effects such as your ball joint to tie rod angle and over centering but it its the caster itself.
And patrick, yes the positive caster load up your power steering amd cause "stress" on the pump. Thats how it helps stability. By resisting sort of a self steer that you get in cars with less caster. In perspective, mercedes specs I've seen in the 10 plus degrees of caster, whereas trucks have around 3 to make them easier to steer being so large |
09-26-2011, 05:51 PM | #3178 | |
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The reason I lengthened my tension rods wasn't to decrease caster. I lengthened my tension rods to increase drift trailing wheel angle. It was like moving my inner tie rods forward, but with a nasty side effect of less caster. To get caster back to normal, I want to move the inner tie rods forward. Then I can shorten my tension rods and keep not lose drift trailing wheel angle I have. And I think the pics I posted are misleading. I think it's because I took them from the rear, and the fender slope makes the blah blah blah. I don't have the equipment to post pics right now, but I'll try to get some from the front like everyone else. |
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09-26-2011, 06:10 PM | #3179 |
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Just remember when you lengthen the tension rod its not the same as moving the tie rod forward. Moving the tie rod alone moves it independently of the ball joint. All you did was effectively mess with caster and cause your wobble
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09-26-2011, 06:18 PM | #3180 |
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Yeah you're not moving the inner pivot, you're just moving the angle of the tie rods.
What you're doing that is making it so you don't over center, but at the expense of really low caster, which is not good. |
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