jamanrr

depends, on a ka24e it probably would feel a lot greater than on an engine that makes more power. You just do not notice it as much. It feels like it lost a little but it runs better, idles better, and cools better.

Om1kron

ford taurus fan, huge amped relay, just wire in high speed. bam. I run mine on low and my car only gets up to 90c after hard running, normally sits at 75c in 70-80 degree weather in california, on 100 degree days 90c is the ticket.

__________________
Wayne

jamanrr

YOU KNOW THAT IS NICE AND EVERYTHING BUT AGAIN THIS THREAD IS NOT AN ELECTRONIC VS CLUTCH FAN COMPARISON.

It is for people that have switched from electronic fans to the viscous clutch fan. Not a debate on which one is better because I have been there and done that. Taurus fans and electronic fans are good and I am sure can be as good as clutch fans but there has to be a reason why formula drift tuners run clutch fans still and their cars get the most heat out of any because they track them.

jamanrr

not to bump my own thread. I did work on the fan shroud today and it was a huge pain in the ass. I replace the foam that sits behind the radiator as well hoping to get better air flow there. I did have to cut the shroud though because my a/c dryer was sitting in the way. I just cut an insert away so the dryer can set inside the shroud a little. DO not know if it gets hot or not but a little cool will help it COOL better? I also cleaned the condenser and front mount while it set on the car. Not too dirty but every little bit helps. After about 2 hours of 10 test fittings, I finally got everything together. Today was one of the hottest days on record. 100 degrees with a 100 percent humidity felt like 110-115. I started it up and let it idle for 30 - 40 minutes. I also replace the factory Nissan 76.5 * C thermostat with a 62* C Nismo one. It opened at 62 C and the car idled in that mode for 40 minutes. It stayed around 68* C when I turned on the a/c it blew Ice Cold since I use a flex a lite fan for the condenser. It went up to 71 * C and stayed there with the a/c on full blast. I put my hand in the front of the car and it sucked it straight to the condenser coil. Not really but it felt like one of those big ass shop fans that are like 6 feet tall. It moves a lot more air. The flex a lites are nice as well but while this setup makes it a lot harder to get to stuff, it is definitely worth it IMO. Now to do more testing and tracking or drag racing in full boost pulls to test it further.

I now see why formula D professionals use this setup. NICE.

slider2828

I am glad my suggestion helps LOL.... On the track it actually runs COOLER than on the street or freeway. WHen I was running my setup my track temps at 85 degrees ambien and probably 90 on the track, I was running 62* on my pfc at the beginning then cavitation happens at the end of the day. SERIOUSLY! I love my clutch.....

But if you track a LOT and you only drive 5500 to 7000, cavitation is really bad at the end of the day. Swirl pot and Stance oversized water pulley is a must but definitely runs easily 2-4 degrees hotter on the street....

__________________
Turn and Burn!

codyace

I'm still confused as how people have cooling issues, as anything I've touched/built never has.

Altima Fans
Stance PUlley
All of the OE trays
Upper Cooling Panel
Z32 Rad Cap
Aluminum Radiator

Honestly, when you are at speed, the fan type makes zero difference, as I'd be willing to bet total airflow across the rad is greater than the fans capacity. I may be wrong though, but I'd find that hard to believe.

I run one altima fan on low speed all the time...this helps pull air through the engine bay, REGARDLESS of the radiator needing that flow all the time or not. It's not going to make it extra cool, as the thermostat is still closed at the same time. So at 180 degrees, the water ready to rush in, is already going to be chilled slightly, and at the same time you're flowing air into the engine bay/through the engine bay, helping remove heat (much like a mechanical fan would)

I use a Derale switch, that comes on at 180* (thermo temp) and switches both altima fans to high speed. On track days, my car never EVER gets hot...and I use two water temp gauges to make sure, and verify with the conzult as well.

In the end, the stock mechanical fan is big, clumsy, and IMO gets in the way of any sort of basic work. Sure they work great, and blah blah blah, but if you own any sort of track car, it's often crucial to get stuff fixed/repaired in a short time...and often times working around that fan is counter productive...

__________________

Want Air Conditioning in your SR20 Swapped car? Check out www.sr20acbrackets.com for more information!

Quest Alternator Conversions for SR20! Check my Group Buy!

Tired of lousy internal gates? Go external wastegate with one of my manifolds, Check out my group buy

jamanrr

I am not going to get into an internet e-thug fight here but professional drifters especially all the Japan guys run these fans and shrouds. It is physics. A larger shroud combined with a proper pitched and nice fan will pull a lot more air than 2 electronic fans setting on a radiator. I know altima fans because I use to run a set. Again, I never over heated but it is not just the radiator that is cooling it is the whole engine bay. The intake piping running close to the fan and the actual valve cover. I could not put my hand on the valve cover before after the car was at normal operating temperatures but with the shroud clutch combination, I can. It is a personal preference and that is all. Great I am glad you like your electronic setup and also noticed that you did not post what temps you are running at?

I am guessing the operational temperature of your SR would drop anywhere from 10-15 degrees with the use of the clutch fan combo. I for one did not like my car operation at 85-95 degrees Celsius all the time. So, I came up with a way that was available, to make this work for me. If my temps drop by that 10-15 degrees that makes it worth it.

I mean this in no way as a knock on you or your car but I seriously sometimes doubt the credibility of this forum? Between your posts and the deletion of negative product comments from a forum sponsor. It all makes me wonder about this community? There is a REAL difference between an s14 and a s13 owner. Maybe that is because around 200 thousand s13s hit the United States and they are like Nissan's RWD 'Civic'. Less than 30 thousand s14s where ever brought here. I believe in quality parts and top notch products for my car. Then again the intention of this thread was to discuss the Clutch Fan and Shroud combination as an alternative to electronic fans. Not meant to be a discussion on I have electronic fans and they work because well ' I know everything'.....

codyace

When I get home I"ll get you some logs to see. Unlike you're scientific hand thermometer and 'always right drifter' source, I do track my car often and can bring you up results. Off the top of my head usually around 200* is the hotest it gets

180-200 is where these engines should run when being beat on. You want a degree of heat in the engines, as they are designed to be aspecific operating temps. If the stock thermo is designed to begin letting coolant flow at 180 degrees, than 185-200 is expected when exiting the head and returning to the radiator, as it's just absorbed heat from the engine.


I've probably got more into my custom coilver setup than you have into your entire car. If you want to doubt my ability, that's fine...It certainly doesn't effect me in the least. But when you want to act like your shit doesn't stink, I do have an issue. All your doing is quoting drift cars you've seen on videos, without posting any real world results during a track day. Also, what are you talking about from my posts and deleting comments? I can't delete anything, I'm not a moderator??

__________________

Want Air Conditioning in your SR20 Swapped car? Check out www.sr20acbrackets.com for more information!

Quest Alternator Conversions for SR20! Check my Group Buy!

Tired of lousy internal gates? Go external wastegate with one of my manifolds, Check out my group buy

jamanrr

You do not disappoint.

Again, why did you FAIL up my thread? I have heard and know that the SR loves to get hot and supposedly operates at an optimal range in the 180-200 degree range. I just want to make sure I am on the 180 degree end. It does make a difference since the RWD SR was engineered to have a clutch fan setup. I have ran my car in the 200 to 210 degree range and it sucks. It gets hot in the cabin, hot in the bay and the oil pressure will drop as well as the oil loses viscosity. The coil over comment is especially funny since your coil-overs would not equal my turbo or my leather interior. Pick One.

The comment about a forum sponsor did not pertain to you so do not get so up tight but again not everyone especially who does motor swaps would even think about keeping their clutch fan but let me ask you this?

what will cool better or be more effective? A fan being driven by engine revolution via a pump working off a 350-400 horsepower motor? Or two electronic motors being driven off a 12volt power system and creating additional load and strain on your electrical system?

even if the mechanical fan pulls 1 or 2 percent off the engine it would still be far superior to an electronic motor putting out 20-30 amps or maybe even 60 amps.

ejmetcalf

whoa budy dont hate on me cause i dont have a fancy s14 with a perfectly positioned shroud and a engine driven fan.

jamanrr

then make a significant post about having a mechanical fan and do not turn it into a debate on why electronic fans are better. Oh and it was a royal pain in the ass and is another royal pain in the ass to have to work around it. You have to drain the coolant and remove the shroud and radiator as one piece just to change a belt. It is not for everyone and that is not what I am saying but it does make your engine bay look better plus you can put neat drift-o stickers on the shroud to make it look better. It is just an alternative to electronic fans and you will need to make your own mind up on what you want to run. I too was closed minded to it once but then this guy on NICO opened my eyes to it and then I saw what it could do and was impressed and tried it. So, far so good but that does not mean I might not go back to some electronic fans in the future. As everyone should know on here, peoples cars tend to change all the time.

ejmetcalf

there is nothing significant about a engine driven fan its old technoligy. you know like a prop plane

but thats not why i posted, i posted because you insulted my car

jamanrr

sorry I did not mean to insult your car. I love s13s and all 240s. Have been thinking about getting another 240 and it being a s13 hatchback. No insult was intended other than there are more s13s out there and that they are easier to come by.

My Bad.

codyace

I assumed my post would trounce any of your thoughts, so I took advantage.

Oh yes, Nissan also engineered the cars to not have coilovers, bigger turbos, or many things...yet we all modify them. What's really your point?

Well obviously the lower the better. Let me ask this, where is your water temp gauge at in the system? I have two, just wondering where you placed yours.

Oil will break down at 180 as well if you're on track for 30 minutes straight of WOT. I've never had an issue at 200 for 4 years now of HPDE events. I guess I should go back to that shroud and airplane propeller right?

I know I know..the drifters use them...so they are always right.







I'd be willing to bet just my 8611's were worth more than your turbo, and you can buy leather seats for less than the custom housings, hardware, tops/hats/plates. I could go on all day, but you're the expert and should know better than this

Leather interior? LOL. That's the last thing I'd want on track. Even if they were cloth those seats are terrible. I've got 2 GTR seats and 2 OMP seats with bride sliders for track days and tag alongs. Guess my seats are really worth more than your stuff again. My turbo is a bullshit 2871r, that probably makes more power than your overpriced 30r.

(PS: Who cares what stuff is worth, my car is a reliable track car...so it doesn't impress you, big woop - I built it for myself)

The parasitic loss from the clutch fan has been proven to pull more power than an electric fan setup, regardless of it's base power or percieved power. Look at a big rig diesel even...when that fan comes on, you're loosing quite a bit of power. Sure it cools, but man does it drain power out...so really, do you really want to keep going with this conversation? I'm not sure how long you're going to "float" vs someone with experience. Seems like you don't like being corrected.

FWIW: I recently ditched the stock alternator anyway. With the ignition system, the meth pump, and the twin fuel pumps, I went with the 125amp quest one. Ever logged your car with everything going on the stock setup? Scary with a car makig power.

LOL.

__________________

Want Air Conditioning in your SR20 Swapped car? Check out www.sr20acbrackets.com for more information!

Quest Alternator Conversions for SR20! Check my Group Buy!

Tired of lousy internal gates? Go external wastegate with one of my manifolds, Check out my group buy

jamanrr

Nope, never said that run what you want but who knows I might switch back come winter if it keeps it too cold.


and I am sure it fits your needs well. My goal however was to build a comfortable street car. All my accessories work from a/c, cruise control, to the freaking window shield wiper reservoir. Not many sr swapped 240s can say that.

I bet I would not lose any more than 2 to 3 percent over the power range if that. It makes the car run better and idle better.

See point proven.
LOL.[/quote]

codyace

Explain how it would keep it cool below 180, being that the thermostat opens there?

Yawn, my 'track car' has had all of those options since doing the swap ages ago. Since you want to 'pick pennies' does your Consult port work?

So why not prove your point, and find information comparing parasitic loss of the clutch fan, vs current draw of the electric setup. I'd love to know (seriously) if you could find any information on it. Sure my 'retort' may be basic, but most 'race' cars don't run clutch fans, neither do any new RWD motors. If the clutch fan was truley the better option, why wouldn't we see them on the newer cars? Again, I may not have any scientific poof at the moment for you, but I couldn't begin to tell you the last timke I saw a clutch type fan on any sort of performance oriented car.

What point, that my meth injection, ignition amp, and fans overpower the stock alternator? I guess I should get rid of them, reduce power, and put the stock fan back on. That would be best, that's how Nissan engineered the engine 20 years ago

__________________

Want Air Conditioning in your SR20 Swapped car? Check out www.sr20acbrackets.com for more information!

Quest Alternator Conversions for SR20! Check my Group Buy!

Tired of lousy internal gates? Go external wastegate with one of my manifolds, Check out my group buy

jamanrr

I run a NISMO thermostat and it opens at 143.6 degrees F. Please quote in Celsius it is making my head hurt.


Great if it does but I doubt. So, all your accessories works today? including cruise and the windshield washer? I run a Power FC, why would I want or need my consult to work?

dude, seriously, All corvettes, camaros and mustangs have ran clutch fans for ever. They may not now because some of the electronic fan technology is good. Again, this is not why it would not make sense. I am happy with the way it works and plus I get to put stickers on the shroud. Making it more JDM than You. Is that is what you wanted to know?


Your setup probably would not allow you to do it. Again it is a great setup for me but probably not you. Again, why do you continue to post in my thread? I seriously doubt the loss is anything to make a noticeable difference. Again, it is up to you. We are all here to learn. I am happy with my setup you are happy with yours this was a discussion to see how well the clutch fan would do as compared to the electronic fans. It was not or needed to be a debate on which one is better. Just an experiment basically since 99 percent of all 240sx swapped owners do not use the clutch fan,

Slayde

I run stock a clutch fan on my lowly stock S13 with KA24de and have had electric fans before and overheated. Although my going back to stock clutch fan had more to do with my budget than efficiency IMO I think the stock clutch fans are... by the numbers more efficient at cooling a STOCK motor otherwise they would not equip the car with them from the factory... That being said for modded/swapped cars, trucks, whatever you need to find something that fits and works for what you need it to do...

I do think that comparing all S13s and their owners to those of civics is a bit extreme and stuck up. There are people like that that own S14s and even rarer cars but... none of that matters apparently... both an s14 and s13 owners have entered a cock fight to see who is bigger... on a forum ...

Where's the popcorn?

jamanrr

I did not mean anything the way you s13 guys took it. It is just numbers, the s13s are a lot easier to come by and if you go to a drift event something like 10 - 20 percent of all the 240sxs there are s14s. Just not many of them and if I wanted to build a drift car then I would use the s13 hatch chassis. That was not the debate and yeah the stock fan shroud combo is cheaper but that was not the point either. It was to see how well they do.

Slayde

I know I know just pokin the bear haha. I am in AR too and damn it is hot a sh** but me clutch fan does fine 190 with the AC and 180 without @ 95-100F. Sorry I don't have any efan numbers. Plus I don't have a turboed SR or an S14... so it really doesn't matter. I wont clutter up your thread anymore haha

codyace

I'll quote in Farenheight as it's the standard I follow. Plus that's what my logs read, and that's what my gauge reads, so being a simpleton, that's what I use.

PS: Why the low thermostat, that's REDICULOUS on a street car in regard to proper operating temps. Your car must be super sluggish with the timing being so soft due to low CTS value.


All of mine have always worked. I developed AC bracket conversion kits for our cars, of course I run my own product. I swear by cruise control too, I've since removed it for the time being (sold the other TB locally) as I'm going Q45 on mine (which will also have cruise).

And yes the washers work just fine, intermittant and all. I got the wiring done by Yuri @ Wiring Specialities.

And the consult is nice for the rest of us running stock based ECU's. Again, penny picking as we say.


I know they do - I've owned plenty of them. Heck my father has a 69 Mach, my brother is restoring one, I've had fox bodies, my brother has a fox, my mom even drives a '10 GT. I've played with mechanical fans forever, and they are junk. Every single of the above cars (aside from my fathers) has eletric fans now, and all run better than ever. I know a thing or two about cars....while you may think otherwise, the reality is that I know I've played with such a variety of cars, that I could baffle you from the get go. Quit pretending to know.

But you last comment sums up why you really have these opinions. Quit riding Option Magazine's nuts and form an opinion from experience, not from what you think.




YOu're basically trying to make your opinion the better one. Experiment on stuff that's been covered by other OG members before you even owned your car. E Fans are the way to go. 60-80 dollars total for a better setup, easier to work around, and proven effective? Sure.

Quit trying to confuse newer members, and just end. I'm here trying to give a good retort to your 'ideas', so learn to except some difference in opinion. Clutch fan is fine for stock. If you are making any sort of power, why bother.

__________________

Want Air Conditioning in your SR20 Swapped car? Check out www.sr20acbrackets.com for more information!

Quest Alternator Conversions for SR20! Check my Group Buy!

Tired of lousy internal gates? Go external wastegate with one of my manifolds, Check out my group buy

jamanrr

No not at all. It runs fine. It is a NISMO thermostat so it looks just like the OEM one that came out instead of saying 76.5 degrees C it states 62* C. Put it in my self. It just opens sooner allowing more coolant to flow earlier. Remind me why a thermostat would have anything to do with the timing? The thermostat opens allows coolant to flow through the block and returns to the raditor where it is cooled then back into the motor again.


Is that a quality product like Duestche werks sells?


Yuri does great work and is a good guy. He did my wiring as well.




I have owned both and I would say the mechanical fan with a small syclone 12 inch fan combo works great. Do what you want to your car since it is your car. I just wanted to see if I could lower the temps down a little from where they were and so far it looks like I did it. I have had my car for 6 years now and owned a 1996 Nissan 240sx in 1997 so this is my second 240. I do not really get into drifting and do not watch it. I put the shroud on and stuck an aspec and flex a lite sticker on it and it looked good so I was like NEAT. How is an actual, factual based observation stating an opinion? If you had any sort of science background then you would realize that you have a hypothesis and then you test that hypothesis through experimentation. No matter how out of wack or not the normal the better result is, it is still the best solution to the problem. That is all I was saying let people draw their own conclusions.

codyace

Becuase the engine is 'designed' to work best at 180. Below that threshold the ECU pulls timing via CTS to warm motor up.

Again, that thermostat is useless on the street. Heck even if I had a track car, I'd simply put a big washer in place, and not even run a thermo


I wouldn't support re drilled injectors for my enemies. My stuff fits and works, unlike theirs.


So why clout about how good your car is, when reality is...you went the same route I did.




My point is, the E fans work just as well, and are easier to work around. Why deal with that clumsy big fan in the way.

__________________

Want Air Conditioning in your SR20 Swapped car? Check out www.sr20acbrackets.com for more information!

Quest Alternator Conversions for SR20! Check my Group Buy!

Tired of lousy internal gates? Go external wastegate with one of my manifolds, Check out my group buy

rex2sx

Ive been reading this thread and while i dont have any inpute nor am i trying to threadjack, i have one question..
Since you say E fans work and Janmarr says they dont. How is it that when he switched over his setup,it now cools better?

Maybe you can provide insight to where he went wrong w/ his previous setup, becuase this is something id like to know. Which is "better"

__________________
SR20DET RDTOP Cylinder Head FS

jamanrr

Man I would not really know about that. I run hotter cams and it idles around 1000 rpm anyway and at 18.5 lbs of boost it will never not be running cool. That NISMO thermostat looks like a quality product but I do not know first time running it and it was only 55 bucks. I do drag race a lot and run it hard some.

we agree on something.


I did not really -- if you know how to get the abs to work then send me some wiring diagrams because I still can not figure it out. I do have z32 brakes at all 4 corners with the automatic brake master cylinder so my brakes bite like crazy and come to a stop on a dime without the abs stuff.




It does make the engine bay look better IMO. It does take up a lot of room and makes things more difficult to get to but I like the way it sounds and the way it cools. Maybe I just had some cheap electric fans or did not give the altima fans there due but the mechanical fan pulls air through it like a sumabitch and it really is a noticeable difference from the electronic fans I have ran. I guess I like being different as well. Who knows like I said if it becomes to much of a pain then I will switch back to the electric fans and my alternator is pulling more consistent current. not in the low 14s now a constant 14.5 unless I use the syclone 392 elctronic but it does not pull as many amps as my 2 cheap electronic fans did.

jamanrr

I do not need to quote you again cody ace but I love formulas and scientific calculations

Lets say you take a set of electric fans like some Taurus or Altima fans the most the draw is 60 amps and you have to have a pretty solid relay to keep them going. Alight here is the formula for parasitic loss and the amount of horsepower each would make.

Ex 1.

Taraus and/ or Altima fans drawing 60 amps

A X V =

60 amps X 12 volt system = 720 watts
720 watts x .00134 = .9648 horsepower or one horsepower

Now the mechanical fan is easy you say the parasitic loss is greater than 3 percent which it is usually around 1 to 2 percent.

so 340 whp sr20det at 18 lbs of boost will be running a fan at anywhere from 3.5 to 7 hp vs an electronic fan which barely does 1 hp.

So, the question again given equal measurements and what not. Not counting shrouding and fan pitch which plays a role as well. Which system would be the most efficient in cooling? the mechanical fan will out work the electric fans all day long and do it with little to no electrical draw on the alternator. Again, the purpose was not prove you wrong or talk crazy shite to you but to just explain the mechanics of cooling and how much power the system makes.

rex2sx

X2. But remember the .9hp eltrical fan is all the time. Your 7hp mechanical fan is only producing 7hp when your engine is making 340, at a 2% loss anyway, but you already knew this.

So id say maybe 2k+ rpms the mechanical is flowing more air than elettrical, in your case anyway.

__________________
SR20DET RDTOP Cylinder Head FS

jamanrr

I am just using the peak numbers as an example. However you have to realize that the clutch fan on a normal 240sx with the 155 hp ka24de would probably not work as well or rotate the mass as much. if that makes sense

jamanrr

Ok here is the completed product

some observations






some observations. The fan does cool better than electric manly due to shrouding but you can also feel a little power loss on deceal not so bad accelerating since it is making power to move the fan. A little bit more laggy. In 98 degree heat with relative humidity of 80 percent which makes it more like 110, It took a while to warm up due to the NISMO thermostat I am running, which I may have to switch back to a normal one in the winter cause I could see a scenario in which it would be hard to get to normal operating temperature with cooler winter temps.

Anyway it stayed around 89 degrees celsius in this heat and went to 90 when I turned on the syclone fan it when back to 89. That would be an operating temperature of 193ish degrees F close to the 200 operating temperature. Any, this was just completed and wanted to share what the results were in case any one out there was thinking about doing the same thing. Ultimately it was a huge pain in the ass cause I also had the front end repainted and reworked as well but on the other hand in huge ass heat waves it did not get into the 210-220 degree range which is where I was wanting to avoid.

chituntang

JDM drifters uses clutch fans because they do not have to swap an SR into their cars. They come with this setup and it works great. Why switching them?

Nismo thermostat does not cool your car better. It opens up the coolant passage to radiator earlier. Your engine will still reach the 180 degree, or higher depends on how you drive. I am not saying it is a piece of sh*t but just not necessary when the OEM unit works just fine.

E-fans vs. clutch fan? Hum, according to the fan test years ago, clutch fan does not run at higher rpm better as engine rpm goes up. At some rpm point the clutch is disengage, and it is because airflow at the speed the car travels outflows what the fan can produce. This is where stock clutch fan is better than aftermarket e-fan solution because in this situation, the clutch fan is off, free spinning by incoming air when the e-fans may stilling run because the thermo switch kept the fans on.

This is really funny. Lower efficiency because engine bay is hot? Our engine is not air cooled. It is normal that the engine bay is hot when the engine is hot...

Clutch fan is on when your car sits, E fan is not. Again, this does not make clutch fan better.

Again, you said "due to shrouding." So, do you have the result when your e fan setup is right?

You ran a shitty e fan setup and say it is shit, when you run a proper oem setup and say it is great? It's just like SR guys saying KAT sucks because they cannot handle boost as well, but in the real world, they are just as great as each other. A proper e fan setup will be as great as a stock clutch fan setup, plus you have easier access to the front of the engine. But in terms of cooling capability, they are equal if done right.