DRIFTER-M

Legit curious.

I feel like when Sportmaxx / XXR began dominating the cheap JDM market, much in the way of innovation went to the wayside. Especially in the "affordable" range, from more established brands. They also cornered the market in such a way I don't think we have seen a consistent rise of smaller similar styled wheels since.

The last cool brick that fell (at least in the states ) was losing the licensing to make CST wheels (Battles) in the USA, as that took out a cool looking affordable, albeit overused, wheel option. One of the only ones left really, RIP days of FN01r-c and Hot Wheels wheels.

Who is out there now? Maybe I am just out of touch. I know Kansei exist, but there isn't a ton of designs and most are relatively conservative imitations of already conservative wheels. Cosmis has fallen off the earth at this point, and TBH their designs were never my thing.

Happy to see Advan making some cool OG designs again, but I am sure the price will be a nostalgia point and none of the sizes are s-chassis good IMO.

What are the cool kids rocking now that don't cost equal money to our cars?

*** Just want to PSA, I am not at all against spending $$$ on the s-chassis. Been around way too long to do cheap stuff. Not complaining in that way, more just perplexed at how barren the affordable JDM / JDM "style" wheel market has become. Very complacent.

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e1_griego

Konig is making a bunch of cheap flow-formed wheels but I wouldn't say any of them look great. Good for track days etc. because of cost/weight ratio, but very few are good looking.

snags

enkei still makes lots of affordable wheels that look great. the pf05 series comes to mind

DRIFTER-M

That seems to be the problem. Design has fallen off the friggin wagon. You would think that people would see the demand for stuff like the Blitz 03, XD-7, Battle, etc. and try to make similar wheels. And before I get hit with the "reps" argument, many wheels inspired each other; Professors / Meister. The obvious truth is there are only so many ways to design a wheel, so it seems like companies today would get some inspiration form the past but maybe I am just way off on the thought. I don't buy and will never be a fan of full on reps, but just pre-facing before the inevitable pops up.

I will give some credit to Heritage, they have a couple of designs that are at least somewhat innovative and fall relatively affordable (these go right near 1k for a set) even if NOT my thing, like these:


326 Also makes some good stuff, the gangsta I think is darn good but at ~$2k very pricey for a one piece wheel IMO. I will probably throw down for some soon though, as again - one of the only newer options left that is actually cool and has good sizing (18x9 +5, 18x9.5 +15, 18x10 +5, etc.)

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DRIFTER-M

I almost included them. I tend to agree, they are one of the only ones left. I much prefer the less talked about PF07 for s14/s15 though:



You could probably throw Gram Lights in there as well (usually between 1600 - 2k for great sizing). Those 2 (Enkei and GL) are probably the only really "legit" old school cool companies left in the range, though I do feel Enkei is slightly overpriced and I would apply the same thought to GL, but GL offers more aggressive designs so I can overlook it a little more.

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PoorMans180SX

Konig, Enkei, Gram Lights, Square (G33), Kansei, and Stage are pretty much the only companies making anything decent looking for affordable prices. Motegi racing used to make some decent wheels, albeit made in China, but apparently they make more profit on blingy truck wheels and "American Racing" wheels . They canceled all the decent models. I'm pretty sure this is very much case-in-point for why people are against knockoffs. It kills innovation in the market.

I feel like I might have to kill someone to get a set of 17x10 FN's off somebody one of these days hahaha.

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BryanSayWhat

Ya, it's kind of a bummer with cheaper JDM wheels these days...

You still have Work with their Emotion line that has 17"-18" with sub 20 offset and 9"-9.5" width for under $2K.

Gram Lights 57CR/DR that has 17"-18" with sub 20 offset and 9"-9.5" width for under $2K (color option on these are meh).

Enkei PF01 EVO come in a 17"-18" with as low as a 0 offset (which is surprising) and 9"-9.5" width for under $2K.

WedSports has the 17x9 +10 TC105X for under $2K, but it's more of a track style wheel.

I'm sure there's a little more, but usually you can't find shit in 17's, sub 20 offset and the color choices are limited/ not good. *Edit: Didn't see all of these replies while I was making this post, so there's some repeats. lol

DRIFTER-M

I bought a set of Square G8 once (The Gravity Gullflame "reps"), just to beat on drifting instead of my Kranze. But... ehhh, I sold them before ever mounting them. I guess polished, or maybe painted white they would be inoffensive. That brushed look screams cheap though (IMO, of course), and it is more and more common. The G33 you are correct though, a good bang for buck design. Much in the vein of the Kansei tandem. They are just super conservative IMO, as Kansei doesn't get super concave until you go super wide and their sizing slightly misses the mark - like how they have 18x9 +12, but 9.5 in only +22. It is nice though, as both designs are cooler than %99 of what we see lately/

EDIT: https://www.carbynewheels.com/collections/sprints - these I always felt like were pretty "inspired" by the FN01r-C, but they don't have 17x10. Their sizing is pretty good though, and wheels super cheap if you are just after a similar look and can do 18s.

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deolio

I wouldn't say Square, Heritage, Kansei, Cosmis, or Stage are particularly innovative. Most of them are using ripped off designs, which I suppose isn't all that uncommon within the JDM wheel world, but still - not a way I'd want to make a name for myself...

Honestly, SSR seems to be the only company continually putting out cool new designs while everyone else is rehashing 30 year old designs to sell at a premium to nostalgic 90's a e s t h e t i c goobers (though they have been doing a bit of the reboot thing as well). Rays has just been coasting on the success of the te37 for 20 years lol

In my mind, reps cover the $300-$1000 price range, the real wheel resale market covers $1000-$2000, and BNIB real wheels cover $2000+. I think that 1-2k market is just super tough. When people see a used set of SP1's for the same price as a BNIB set of 57dr's and they'll take the SP1's all day. There's more perceived value in buying something that was originally over $2k than buying something new that's only $1600, which I figure has something to do with why many reputable brands don't really offer anything in that price range.

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DRIFTER-M

So, I am with you in essence - though I would argue that SSR has kind of abandoned the sizing as well. The Minerva doesn't come in a size under 19 anymore, some of their 17 / 18 sizing outside of the professor is weakish.

Plus, have any of their design's been as hot as their early 00 designs? Not really IMO, they kind of fell off or switched their focus to Euro styling. I do understand what you mean though, they have an extensive catalog for sure and try to stay cool.

The other point is that I don't think you really see good sized SP1 for 1k - 2k anymore. That's kind of why I started this thread. The rise of frivolous spending and youth determined to get e-famous off loans has caused the aftermarket / discontinued wheel market to SOAR. I mean, even people such as LZ have called it out. It's ludicrous, and really killing the scene IMO. Trying not to get off on a rant though, I agree in principle - that market use to be the sweet spot for real wheels. I bought my Kranze for $1200 4/5 years ago, 18x10 +15 square. Looked awesome on a stock body s14. Today, good luck with those under 2k. I sold those particular wheels for 1k, because I can't stand drift tax BS.

Stage, Kansei, Square I agree are really just copying other wheels. Heritage to some degree, but at least they are going after rare wheel and basically making new versions, but as I posted above ^^^ some of their stuff is pretty unique even if it isn't what I would prefer myself, I can still respect the art and attempt. Same with Cosmis. Not a huge fan, but a lot of their designs are at least reltively original. Certainly inspiration, but not immitation for the most part.

I feel the same with Ray's haha. Probably the most hyped (probably even overhyped) wheel of all time that has placed their name into the JDM record book for ever, haha.



I do want to mention another wheel brand I stumbled across. Not a fan at all, but I have always been perplexed why their wasn't VSKF reps being they were the fanboy allstar of 3 piece wheels for a decade before the 03 kind of stole it's thunder in desire in the last few years. Was surprised it took someone so long until StyleUP did it:



Around $800 for a set. These however, are straight up reps IMO. On top of that, I don't hate the look but there is something just a little off with them when I see pictures of cars with them. IDK what it is... something just doesn't sit right. I wish they would give different designs a shot, and less true replica and see if they could become a legit cool affordable wheel brand, but it seems like they were a one trick pony.

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economix

If you're just looking to save $$$ and still have some options, JNC, Adohan, and Square all have decent stuff... weight is usually high and IDK anything about their load ratings or general strength, but they have some good bang for your buck and nice options. I won't knock them because they're affordable or 'just not TEs'.

Personally, I would go with a higher quality used set from a reputable dealer like www.threepiece.us. I literally just ordered some BBS RS (16 x 10 -15, $2,700 out the door) this past weekend from them because I was irritated with all the affordable options lacking in some area.

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burnsauto

I'm trying to think of a time when hotboi wheels were affordable. I remember expensive wheels you had to save for, and then the rest of us ran rotas, fn's, rpf's, and MB's. Was there ever a time of sub 2k wheels that were popular? Rays introduced the 57 line in the early 2000's, and some guys rocked them, but not a ton of people. XT7, XD9, and CR Kai's were big, but then everyone was using them..and no one wants to rock the wheel that everyone else has (talking about cheap wheels).

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silviaks2nr

rpf1 are the best wheels for the money IMO

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DRIFTER-M

I agree, but I feel like wheels are getting insane for used (well used), old 3 piece wheels. At some point it just doesn't make sense. I mean, I can shell out, again - I am not arguing against natural inflation. I just feel like, for the sport that 99% of us do, and for those of us that still prefer to have real brands the market is becoming hard to justify or with a hole where there isn't really a sweet spot. I don't mind paying up for wheels and parts, but for 20 year old wheels that have been driven 1000000 miles, probably beat on (I get we can swap barrels and all, but just humor me here), that now cost +1000 what they did new? Seems stupid. There is a hole in the market IMO. Reps should be sub $1k IMO, but there is a middle market there to support as well that most wheel companies seem to be overlooking. I spoke to Heritage yesterday after starting this thread, and apparently most people that order wheels are generally FWD guys, so that explains why we see less and less RWD offset makeups in the range. Makes sense, RWD got walloped in the 00s, and our cars are getting harder to find and, IMO, the sport is dying thanks to many factors.

I suppose hotboi is a subjective term, but what I meant was popular real / "original" wheels. Not straight up rep brands that made stuff cheaply and look... well, cheap.

In my mind, just from some of the wheels mentioned here so far... Apologies in advance for usage of the word hotboi, I used it ironically for the title but feel like I am fully committed to using it now for the descriptions. Haha.

Beginner Hotboi:

- MB Battle (CST Zero 1). Cheap, cast, but iconic design and a mold from Japan, with permission from CST. That's cool. $600 new (at the time)



- Hot Wheels Sixty Eight. Sure, this one is arguable, but it was awesome sized during that ~00 - 10 blooming era, and DIRT cheap (I think like $500 new?).

- 5Zigen FN01r-c. At the time... these were like $900 new? Somewhere around that IIRC.



Etc.

Mid Level Hotboi (mainly 1 piece, 1k- 2k range):

- JIC J-Force 07. Usually between 1k - 1.3k, like this one was.



- Work XT7. Here is our very own advertiser, ACE UP MOTORSPORTS, with a pair shipped for $2k 7 years ago.




- Even the 5Zigen Pro Racer GR+ was $900 Shipped

Etc.

Best Hotboi wheels:

Meister, Professor, Blitz 03, Kranze, etc.

These have always been in that $2k - 3.5k Range... WHEN NEW.




So yeah, IMO within the last decade - we have had plenty of "hotboi" wheels within an affordable range. Again, this isn't dissing 3 piece and 2k-3k wheels. Been there / am there. But there is still a glaring hole for our sizes in current, new markups, in the 600 - 2000 range. That's a wide range and market.

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s13silvia123

I have these i bought them 5 years ago.
CST Hyper Zero 1 X 18x9.5+12
Limited Chrome paid $1700 to get it shipped here.

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deolio

You gotta be kidding me Least reputable used wheel dealer around

Lol I think it's a pretty accurate term though.

Back when battles and fno1's were the go-to, there weren't anywhere near the amount of knockoffs there are now. It was sportmax or rota or spend $200 more to not get laughed at. These days people don't even know what is the original and what is the rep anymore. I've seen people call real wheels reps and reps real dozens of times over the past few years. People just wanna flex on instagram and apparently you don't need real wheels to do that

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Dolph_KYAS13

It boggles my mind that people are asking 2K+ (Canadian mind you) for Cosmis ect. on the used market.

Like you, I just dont understand anymore.

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FaLKoN240

Monkey see monkey do.

I've seen a lot of silly shit in the market in the last couple of months with Coronavirus people have lost their minds with their disposable income and builds.

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tb13

Wheels make a car in my eyes, you can run all of the cool shit under the hood and have an sick kit, but without a set of cool wheels, whats the point?

The sub 2k category is rough right now and has been for the last year or two, new there are few options that really fit our cars. Shit even the used market has most sets passing 2k if you want something that will fit without spacers or a re-build. I can't honestly say I know of a wheel that really fits the "hotboi" category that can be purchased new for under 2k right now.

/rantstart

I feel most young car "Enthusiasts" have a mindset of "cheap is good" that is reinforced by idiots on FB yelling about how great their cheap wheels are. They keep buying junk and feeding the industry of knockoffs, killing the incentive of the name brands who want to innovate and bring new designs out.

If you owned a company and made new, innovative wheels just to have someone else knock them off, would you even bother continue trying to make something new that will just continue the cycle of copy, paste? Its impossible to be original then compete with with the brand stealing your ideas and selling a full set of wheels to idiots for $600. Although they aren't directly competing, dipshits are going to go for the junk over the OG because they can get more IG likes per dollar if their car looks some kind of way.

We're all part of a small group that gives a shit about supporting the real companies that care about working to bring new product to market. Until there is a way to stop the rampant copycat bullshit I doubt we see many new, fresh, semi-affordable, quality wheels.

/rantend

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bigs

Just checking in to say never use the word hotboi to describe something.

DRIFTER-M

Ha, it was suppose to be kind of ironic as I addressed in my last post (I?m too old and in the scene far too long to use it without irony), but yeah - I am kind of stuck using it for the remainder of the thread haha.

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turbo2nr

HotBoi wheels = HotBoi monies.

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danbarnett123

Please stop hoarding all the pana?s, give some of us a chance

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s13silvia123

you can buy them new, they still make them. i don't get why people keep saying they are rare when they are still made by ordering them. go on to the website and order them

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tb13

No, you can't buy them new anymore. Even in recent years of making them they made very few and the pricing was astronomical.

www.panasport.jp/

Translation from their "Feature" post on 01/07/2019:

"Notice of suspension of operation of our factory"

Dear Sir, We would like to thank you for your continued support.

We would like to express our sincere gratitude for your continued patronage.

From the end of March 2018, we have stopped manufacturing and repairing old wheels at our factory.

Currently, the only product that can be manufactured is the 3-piece product "G7-C4C".

Center caps, air valves, nuts, and other small items and goods are still on sale, but

Sales will end as soon as the stock runs out.

We will update it as needed when there is a change in the products that can be manufactured or sold.

We sincerely apologize for any inconvenience caused and also apologize for any inconvenience.

We look forward to your continued guidance and support in the future."

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danbarnett123

Some of us can?t afford brand new $4k+ wheels, which is why we are on this thread.

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PoorMans180SX

Those I think are based on Gramlights 57c. Not sure how I feel about that.

If you mean "ripped off" by having concave faces and the same number of spokes, I guess so.
I wouldn't say any wheel companies are really "innovating" besides Rays, as they actually put cool new tech in their wheels. ZE40, TE037, 21C, 57DR, are all newer designs that are lighter, stronger, and have improved features like knurled tire contacts that improve function. Not to mention they keep improving the TE37; they're not just stamping out new ones of the same 20 year old design.
Also, Advan actually comes out with new designs on the regular.

Exactly what most enthusiasts are trying to avoid: Copy paste companies.

You know, if you factor in inflation, it's probably close haha.

Agreed. Even when Sportmaxx started (which then became XXR), They had wheels that were simple designs that weren't just copied and pasted from other companies. They were heavy as shit and came in very limited sizing, but it was a pretty simple "get what you pay for" kinda deal. Even now they're not straight up replicas, but they've produced enough wheels that were basically another companies design with a tweak or two for me to consider them... not something I want to own. I just visited their website and it looks like they've massively reduced their line and mostly everything comes in 18" and above now as well.

100%. Wheels make the car. There have always been the "just as good" crowd justifying their purchases. I really think Rota was the root of the knockoff problem. They started out with a massive line of wheels that were basically identical in form to much more expensive ones and at a much cheaper cost. They sponsored a ton of people and blew up (literally and figuratively). Funny enough, if you google "rota wheels" one of the top questions asked is "Do rota wheels break?" .

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bigs

Rays is the obvious one, but don't forget Weds. They're one of my favorite wheel companies as far as innovation and designs go.

Pretty much every new wheel they produce under their Kranze line is a work of art in my opinion.

They're incorporating things they've learned from SuperGT into their WedsSport line which is pretty cool too.

mav1178

Let's get a few things out of the way:

a lot of brands are not made in Japan.
a lot of brands have their products cheaper/available because it might be purchased from Japan, but shipped from somewhere else in Asia.
every brand plays the exchange rate game.

what destroyed a lot of brands was the 2008-2010 period when the financial crisis caused not only the JPY to skyrocket vs the USD/Euro, but it also made purchasing from other parts of the world unstable. Add in a severe recession and a huge drop in demand of parts, and it pushed several companies out of business or out of the US market entirely.

a lot of wheel brands use contract manufacturers. the actual number of factories is quite low, because economies of scale dictate that these factories need a certain minimum volume to keep the lights on. no one will invest the millions needed to start a brand, so they rely on this system to make new brands, new wheels...

at the end of the day, it only works if you can make the math work.

40' container holds anywhere from 300-450+ wheels depending on size. let's use 400 wheels per container, 100 sets.

100 sets @ $75 each wheel for cast wheels is around ~$30000. Add on approx. ~$6000 to ship the container + the duties/fees/handling from, say, Taiwan. you're almost $40k for 400 wheels

Landed cost of about $100/wheel.

Let's say it's a cheap wheel, about $300 each MSRP. Dealer cost is 30% off MSRP, WD is 40%. Let's say you sell 70% to WD and 30% to regular dealers, that's $50400 in WD revenue and $25200 in dealer revenue, about $75k in revenue per container and about $25k in gross profit per container.

That's a lot of money, right?

Factor in employees, cost of warehouse rent, overhead, advertisements, etc etc... and you suddenly have a few thousand net profit after all said and done.

And now repeat this 12x for a year...

When I was at 5Zigen the only way we made the numbers work was to import a TON of stuff. Stuff from Japan. Stuff from Taiwan. Stuff from China. Stuff from Vietnam. The goal was to hit target revenue with target margins, but it is so incredibly difficult to pull off given that the wheel market is not as big as people make it out to be, especially given consumer preference and market trends.

During our peak, we maybe received about 2-3 containers a month. We could've done more but then you start oversaturating the market, and dealers are unhappy.

Wheels are now a medium volume market, and the pricing and brand availability reflects that...

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DRIFTER-M

Hey man, good breakdown - but I never said most wheels (or parts) were made in Japan or some of the other stuff, unless you were just using my original post and generalizing for others, which I get. Just want to make sure you weren't targeting me on that.

I understand the stuff for sure, and part of what has led to it. Truth it, part of what I do is similar but regarding a different industry.

Today though, many new brands have popped up, as you know. My original comment was just highlighting a hole in the market. There are cheap wheels out there, sub 1k, but they aren't original or cool. That's a shame. There are cool wheels in good sizes still left and being made, but they tend to insanely mark them up (IMO).

There should be a mid spot, and there have been some options discussed here. There is no doubt the economy is far different than back in the day, when many of us entered the scene (for me, around 03). But that doesn't really excuse the massive hole from the 1 - 2k range IMO.

That's pretty awesome you worked for 5zigen! I am sure you still follow them, but they do occasionally come out with some ok designs / sizes, but unfortunately the RWD market seems to have been largely left behind over the past decade by them.

Enkei is a wonderful example brought up here by people. I don't give them enough credit because I always feel like their wheels fall slightly short of super cool. They either are not concave enough, or not unique enough. If Enkei would just step the concavity up a tad bit, I would be more willing to rock some of their current offerings lol.

Anyway, again - thanks for the breakdown of stuff. You generally do a great job of offering insight for subjects such as this. I always look forward to reading them!

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