This is the roll center, suspension pickup, and steering angle modification thread. - Page 93 - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

godrifttoday · 05-24-2011, 02:50 PM

^
but bigger so it don't brake? I don't know about that...

GSXRJJordan · 05-24-2011, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by godrifttoday

^
but bigger so it don't brake? I don't know about that...

What don't you know about? Using the same material (steel vs steel, etc) bigger joints/rods/etc are stronger.

They're one of the only shops that's actually innovating, doing things differently than they've been done before. What separates them from a top-level suspension engineering firm is a ridiculous budget and the things it can provide, like exotic materials, exhaustive CAM/CAD modeling, etc.

I'm not trying to say that Parts Shop Max doesn't do their due diligence, they do. I think for this market they've found a great methodology to making very good parts at a fair price and providing great customer service to their incredibly large customer base.

codyace · 05-24-2011, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GSXRJJordan

Everything I've seen from PSM has been engineered from the racer's perspective (give them what they want, built it big enough until it doesn't break) and I've never seen/heard of their joints breaking. Great rod ends are extremely pricey, good (enough) rod ends can be made for pennies on the dollar. The LCA ball joints are the only thing I can think of that would be really stressed, and need to be a truly high quality part.

I didn't mean for my post to come off as condesncing towards them as it certainly wasn't, I just am looking at it from a 'overall' point of view. If I was operating their company, I would have probably looked into a an existing affordable/good rod end and utilize that...rather than going through all of the trouble and (as you said) 'build it big and won't won't break way of things.

Atop from that, buy using an existing rod end (and buying them in bulk or on a per needed basis) it keeps all costs low, and helps lower their overhead as a shop ya know? To me all of the work involved at creating a rod end that is exclusive, albiet not any different than one that exists and is proven to work (assumption, but th epoint remains the same) is time wasted that could be better spent on other projects or research (etc etc).

Just a business POV from my end. I'm all about innovation and fixing stuff for these cars, which I think we all can admit have been largely neglected for a long time in this area.

Def · 05-24-2011, 08:02 PM

"Good enough" rod ends aren't that expensive, and like codyace is saying, why waste time reinventing the wheel on something off the shelf?

atutt · 05-25-2011, 08:31 AM

Not that my opinion matters. But I feel the same as Def and codyace.

I personally don't see the point. There a tons of rod ends that are more than capable of taking repeated shit kickings. That are available off the shelf.

PoorMans180SX · 05-25-2011, 10:23 AM

I think it was more of a "bigger, with more range of adjustment" kind of thing. Did you see the shanks on those things, they're longggggg.

Def · 05-25-2011, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

I think it was more of a "bigger, with more range of adjustment" kind of thing. Did you see the shanks on those things, they're longggggg.

The thing is, for a given space, putting a spherical bearing in a housing gives LESS load capacity than a rod end of the same size. Loading is almost entirely dictated by spherical ball/liner loading pressure, and a rod end offers a bigger ball than pressing in a smaller spherical bearing. Plus who is making the spherical bearing? PSM or someone else? If it's someone else, why not just go to a rod end in the first place...

The shanks don't look any longer than anything off the shelf I've seen, but maybe the pictures are deceiving.

I realize vertical integration of a supply chain does take out tons of "middle men" who all tack on a little cost/profit along the way, but why not just make a regular rod end if that's the case? Hell, it'd probably develop into a separate product line that would generate profit on its own if it's made with anywhere near the quality and attention to detail that PSM claims.

I know some Zilvians with the reading comprehension of a 3rd grader will take this as a "slam,"

but I'm genuinely curious and simultaneously offering some "experienced" business advice. I do engineering and business consulting for go-fast parts as well.

prego · 05-25-2011, 10:56 PM

Not everything needs to be about making the most profit available perhaps the design is a part the guys at psm enjoy and they have the tools, materials, and budget available whilst also relying on less people they don't know I'm sure some of you know how much of a pain it can be dealing with other companies

prego · 05-27-2011, 01:07 AM

on a separate note what other options are out there for super low silvias, its going to be months before psm release anything again, fortune auto still dont have a full set out and i dont want to get a first run of things, i was thinking 326 power but i cant find any of their suspension arms on their site anymore any reason no one is using them or is just because they can get cheaper stuff in america

95KA-Turbo · 05-27-2011, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McCoy

OK Mr wise guy... I'll add a few.

Before and after of the LCA with the above spindles.

Awesome I'd love to hear some feed back about that mod. What are the specs on the steel you used?

McCoy · 05-27-2011, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 95KA-Turbo

Awesome I'd love to hear some feed back about that mod. What are the specs on the steel you used?

Two pairs of spindles were sacrificed to make these, the top of one pair and the bottom 1/2 of the other, then welded together. Total drop is 1.5" for both the BJ and tie-rod arms... which were also shortened. My friend that made these had already built a jig to align the two 1/2's and this was his 3rd set that he's made.

So many things changed that it's hard to give an apples to apples comparison, but I do know that the car feels great on turn-in now and am much happier with how the car handles on track now.

DC Dan MAX USA · 05-27-2011, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codyace

While I appreciate what you're doing, are you guys doing any actual R+D or stress analysis when it comes to your 'own' bearing setup?

I hate to sound like a doubter, but with their already being companies in existence that create/manufacture Rod ends that are PLENTY strong, I really don't see the cost savings and or 'business' perspective beyond doing it all yourself other than to create a product that is totally one off just 'because'.

I have nothing against making exclusive repair and or replacement parts, but if there is anything I can assure you, it's that in our business (truck repair) there is nothing more frustrating than dealing with some companies who design things to be different just because they can(Mack for example)

Nope, no big time computer stress modeling to relieve your doubt, just experience from what happens in the real world on the street and track. There is no cost savings but if I can do better for the same price as off the shelf, im not going to buy their part. The wear and tear item here is the bearing and thats a standard size you can get from anyone you want If we were not around all of the sudden, but no one seems to need replacements anyhow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GSXRJJordan

Everything I've seen from PSM has been engineered from the racer's perspective (give them what they want, built it big enough until it doesn't break) and I've never seen/heard of their joints breaking. Great rod ends are extremely pricey, good (enough) rod ends can be made for pennies on the dollar. The LCA ball joints are the only thing I can think of that would be really stressed, and need to be a truly high quality part.

Quote:

Originally Posted by godrifttoday

^
but bigger so it don't brake? I don't know about that...

We have really been paying attention to parts involved in crashes and contact with other cars during competition. One of the weak points is parts coming loose, so we made a redundant clamping system, and the other weak point is lack of thread overlap which we have increased dramatically. We have never had a problem with the pillowball even in the most extreme situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GSXRJJordan

They're one of the only shops that's actually innovating, doing things differently than they've been done before. What separates them from a top-level suspension engineering firm is a ridiculous budget
I'm not trying to say that Parts Shop Max doesn't do their due diligence, they do. I think for this market they've found a great methodology to making very good parts at a fair price and providing great customer service to their incredibly large customer base.

Thanks = )
I actually think we spend a lot on R&D, at least for our customer base which I consider a very small niche.

Quote:

Originally Posted by codyace

I didn't mean for my post to come off as condesncing towards them as it certainly wasn't, I just am looking at it from a 'overall' point of view. If I was operating their company, I would have probably looked into a an existing affordable/good rod end and utilize that...rather than going through all of the trouble and (as you said) 'build it big and won't won't break way of things.

Atop from that, buy using an existing rod end (and buying them in bulk or on a per needed basis) it keeps all costs low, and helps lower their overhead as a shop ya know? To me all of the work involved at creating a rod end that is exclusive, albiet not any different than one that exists and is proven to work (assumption, but th epoint remains the same) is time wasted that could be better spent on other projects or research (etc etc).

Just a business POV from my end. I'm all about innovation and fixing stuff for these cars, which I think we all can admit have been largely neglected for a long time in this area.

We dont make more parts than are needed for a typical production run. Our overhead is controlled in other ways than buying off the shelf rod ends like not doing any print advertising, not sponsoring, and we dont have a chain of distribution where everyone makes a cut on the way to the end user. Just us and the end user means better parts, means we stay in business and sell at fair prices. When someone recommends parts shop MAX its because they like the parts, not because we pay them to tell you its good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Def

"Good enough" rod ends aren't that expensive, and like codyace is saying, why waste time reinventing the wheel on something off the shelf?

who likes to settle for good enough, and I like the challenge of trying to make better stuff at the same price as the "off the shelf" guys.

Quote:

Originally Posted by atutt

Not that my opinion matters. But I feel the same as Def and codyace.

I personally don't see the point. There a tons of rod ends that are more than capable of taking repeated shit kickings. That are available off the shelf.

The point is not to have strength to take the abuse of hard driving, our mindset is moved on to taking abuse from contact with other cars on track during high speed tsuiso.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

I think it was more of a "bigger, with more range of adjustment" kind of thing. Did you see the shanks on those things, they're longggggg.

its the same diameter as our current stuff just longer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Def

The thing is, for a given space, putting a spherical bearing in a housing gives LESS load capacity than a rod end of the same size. Loading is almost entirely dictated by spherical ball/liner loading pressure, and a rod end offers a bigger ball than pressing in a smaller spherical bearing. Plus who is making the spherical bearing? PSM or someone else? If it's someone else, why not just go to a rod end in the first place...

The shanks don't look any longer than anything off the shelf I've seen, but maybe the pictures are deceiving.

I realize vertical integration of a supply chain does take out tons of "middle men" who all tack on a little cost/profit along the way, but why not just make a regular rod end if that's the case? Hell, it'd probably develop into a separate product line that would generate profit on its own if it's made with anywhere near the quality and attention to detail that PSM claims.

I know some Zilvians with the reading comprehension of a 3rd grader will take this as a "slam,"

but I'm genuinely curious and simultaneously offering some "experienced" business advice. I do engineering and business consulting for go-fast parts as well.

Correct me if I'm wrong: the rod end load capacity is controlled by the head and shank geometry. Spherical bearings typically have a larger bearing race surface area, and they are press fit into our unique rod end so the total cross section is much greater than typical rod ends.

Our thread diameter is like the size you would see on off road applications and most of our competitors in the 240sx realm are smaller diameter.
Our rod end thread is an inch longer than the equivalent off road spec rod end, and maybe double the length of a typical 240sx part's rod end.

Maybe its hard to talk about generalizations and its easier to say brand A's camber arm rod end hax X dims and brand B's camber arm rod end has Y dims. But Im not here to throw anyone under the bus. I respect my customers intelligence enough to know they can see the difference.

The bearing itself is cheaper to replace than a rod end. Plus our bearing size is nowhere near undersized, no one calls us for replacement bearings even though our parts have been beaten up daily for the past 4.5 years. And anything in the new line with the "pro" designation comes with a 4 year free bearing replacement and lifetime warranty against mfg defect.

Im all about the vertical integration for many reasons. I like my community and selling direct to the end users at a good price but since that sets our pricing standard I dont really want to go any lower to fulfill the discount expectations of other businesses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by prego

Not everything needs to be about making the most profit available perhaps the design is a part the guys at psm enjoy and they have the tools, materials, and budget available whilst also relying on less people they don't know I'm sure some of you know how much of a pain it can be dealing with other companies

We have a small margin and whatever we do make is reinvested into development. I enjoy designing parts very much, making better stuff is all we think about here every day. I like to be thoughtfull about our needs and I like to fill that void through creativity and experience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by prego

on a separate note what other options are out there for super low silvias, its going to be months before psm release anything again, fortune auto still dont have a full set out and i dont want to get a first run of things, i was thinking 326 power but i cant find any of their suspension arms on their site anymore any reason no one is using them or is just because they can get cheaper stuff in america

I agree that 326 is the only company besides ourselves dedicated to parts specifically for extra low cars.

Laslo · 05-28-2011, 07:02 AM

CNC Knuckle.
Try for more information bti.lab(at)gmail.com
Thanks a lot!

GripTerror · 05-28-2011, 02:28 PM

^oh my God

s14unimog · 05-28-2011, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laslo

CNC Knuckle. Try for more information bti.lab(at)gmail.com Thanks a lot!

"would you like to know more?"

yes please!

ka-titties · 05-28-2011, 10:23 PM

wtf? the dude has one post and puts the teaser of the century up and thats it?

godrifttoday · 05-29-2011, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ka-titties

wtf? the dude has one post and puts the teaser of the century up and thats it?

Omg!.. Maybe pbm can top this ... Let's wait

CaptainVlad · 05-29-2011, 05:50 AM

Russian engineering... lol

SicBastard · 05-29-2011, 10:54 AM

Got this from Laslo

"The initial price per 1 kit - 1950$. If you buy 3-7 kits, I can give 10% discount. If 8 and more - 20%

Here you can see other pictures

https://www.dropbox.com/gallery/17914042/1/CNC%20Knuckle?h=a848b5

This is the first cnc exemplar and it made from steel.
These knuckles are covered by zinc and a powder paint that prevents them from corrosion
Knuckle weight - 4.2 kg/pcs. (next modification will weight 3.9kg)"

Anybody know the stock weight?

If I was going to blow 2G on new Macpherson knuckles I'd look into swapping 997 parts.

singlecamslam · 05-29-2011, 11:28 AM

So thats 2g for front knuckles alone? Thats some baller stuff right there.

Def · 05-29-2011, 11:43 AM

Why'd they copy the design of the Driftworks etc. knuckles? Who cares if it's CNC machined with almost the same design as a welded plate steel spindle?

Def · 05-29-2011, 11:43 AM

And I do have to ask, who in the world would spend $2k on just a set of spindles for their S chassis?

godrifttoday · 05-29-2011, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Def

And I do have to ask, who in the world would spend $2k on just a set of spindles for their S chassis?

The one's who want the best... But don't know how to use it. Lol

GSXRJJordan · 05-29-2011, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Def

Why'd they copy the design of the Driftworks etc. knuckles? Who cares if it's CNC machined with almost the same design as a welded plate steel spindle?

This is exactly what I thought. That's cute that it's cut on a mill and all, but holy shit they need to do some FEA and cut out half that material to make up for the machine time. Otherwise welding it out of 3/8" steel or whatever Driftwerks uses is MUCH more economical for the same result.

godrifttoday · 06-01-2011, 09:00 PM

Does one of The ball joint look longer? Where it actually sits at? I bought it and the receipt said it was for a 200sx Nissan .. I have an s13

SicBastard · 06-01-2011, 09:12 PM

1997 Nissan 200sx

Fail.

GripTerror · 06-01-2011, 09:32 PM

maybe he's from europe so you fail LOL

But they look completely different... at first i was like well.. aside from sloppy paint over it... the one on the left looks to have a shorter boot but then i saw the bottom is different too... so i wouldn't mess or cheap out.. i'd get exact ones and call it a day.

Plus longer shank = roll center correction.

GripTerror · 06-01-2011, 09:34 PM

For example:

Front:

Rear:

godrifttoday · 06-01-2011, 09:44 PM

i will be replaing both lol .... just havent done the one to the left.. i wish i had something to measure them....

*!Zar!* · 06-01-2011, 10:23 PM

So it might be possible to use a 200sx ball joint on a s13?

I know megan racing made balljoints for the flca, but I thought people said it didn't do anything...

05-24-2011, 02:50 PM	#2761
godrifttoday Post Whore! Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: los angeles Age: 37 Posts: 3,120 Trader Rating: (82) Feedback Score: 82 reviews	^ but bigger so it don't brake? I don't know about that... __________________ NEED Bolt kits for your car?

05-24-2011, 08:02 PM	#2764
Def Post Whore! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 2,701 Trader Rating: (16) Feedback Score: 16 reviews	"Good enough" rod ends aren't that expensive, and like codyace is saying, why waste time reinventing the wheel on something off the shelf? __________________ S13 Hatch - Goes around tracks quickly DEFSPORT

05-25-2011, 10:23 AM	#2766
PoorMans180SX Zilvia.net Advertiser Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Michigan Age: 33 Posts: 5,431 Trader Rating: (16) Rides Gallery: PoorMans180SX Feedback Score: 16 reviews	I think it was more of a "bigger, with more range of adjustment" kind of thing. Did you see the shanks on those things, they're longggggg. __________________ Build: http://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=643065 Friends don't let friends buy knock-offs.

05-28-2011, 07:02 AM	#2773
Laslo Join Date: May 2011 Location: Russia Age: 33 Posts: 1 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	cnc knuckle CNC Knuckle. Try for more information bti.lab(at)gmail.com Thanks a lot!

05-29-2011, 10:54 AM	#2779
SicBastard Zilvia Addict Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: New York, NY Posts: 803 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Got this from Laslo "The initial price per 1 kit - 1950$. If you buy 3-7 kits, I can give 10% discount. If 8 and more - 20% Here you can see other pictures https://www.dropbox.com/gallery/17914042/1/CNC%20Knuckle?h=a848b5 This is the first cnc exemplar and it made from steel. These knuckles are covered by zinc and a powder paint that prevents them from corrosion Knuckle weight - 4.2 kg/pcs. (next modification will weight 3.9kg)" Anybody know the stock weight? If I was going to blow 2G on new Macpherson knuckles I'd look into swapping 997 parts. __________________ BURN OUT IN YOUR FACE! 1998 S14 LS7/T56 swap in progress, build thread: http://zilvia.net/f/tech-talk/147301...d-gto-pan.html

05-25-2011, 08:31 AM	#2765
atutt Zilvia Addict Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: barrie, ontario, canada Age: 35 Posts: 997 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Not that my opinion matters. But I feel the same as Def and codyace. I personally don't see the point. There a tons of rod ends that are more than capable of taking repeated shit kickings. That are available off the shelf.

05-25-2011, 10:56 PM	#2768
prego Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Bris, Aus. Posts: 40 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Not everything needs to be about making the most profit available perhaps the design is a part the guys at psm enjoy and they have the tools, materials, and budget available whilst also relying on less people they don't know I'm sure some of you know how much of a pain it can be dealing with other companies

05-27-2011, 01:07 AM	#2769
prego Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Bris, Aus. Posts: 40 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	on a separate note what other options are out there for super low silvias, its going to be months before psm release anything again, fortune auto still dont have a full set out and i dont want to get a first run of things, i was thinking 326 power but i cant find any of their suspension arms on their site anymore any reason no one is using them or is just because they can get cheaper stuff in america

05-28-2011, 02:28 PM	#2774
GripTerror Zilvia Addict Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Canada Age: 36 Posts: 685 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	^oh my God

05-28-2011, 10:23 PM	#2776
ka-titties Zilvia FREAK! Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Near that guy you know Posts: 1,561 Trader Rating: (11) Feedback Score: 11 reviews	wtf? the dude has one post and puts the teaser of the century up and thats it?

05-29-2011, 05:50 AM	#2778
CaptainVlad Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Chicago, Illinois Age: 30 Posts: 321 Trader Rating: (4) Feedback Score: 4 reviews	Russian engineering... lol

05-29-2011, 11:28 AM	#2780
singlecamslam Post Whore! Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Norcal Posts: 2,531 Trader Rating: (10) Feedback Score: 10 reviews	So thats 2g for front knuckles alone? Thats some baller stuff right there. __________________ Nothing says racecar like a stock car with no interior.

05-29-2011, 11:43 AM	#2781
Def Post Whore! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 2,701 Trader Rating: (16) Feedback Score: 16 reviews	Why'd they copy the design of the Driftworks etc. knuckles? Who cares if it's CNC machined with almost the same design as a welded plate steel spindle? __________________ S13 Hatch - Goes around tracks quickly DEFSPORT

05-29-2011, 11:43 AM	#2782
Def Post Whore! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 2,701 Trader Rating: (16) Feedback Score: 16 reviews	And I do have to ask, who in the world would spend $2k on just a set of spindles for their S chassis? __________________ S13 Hatch - Goes around tracks quickly DEFSPORT

06-01-2011, 09:00 PM	#2785
godrifttoday Post Whore! Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: los angeles Age: 37 Posts: 3,120 Trader Rating: (82) Feedback Score: 82 reviews	Does one of The ball joint look longer? Where it actually sits at? I bought it and the receipt said it was for a 200sx Nissan .. I have an s13 __________________ NEED Bolt kits for your car?

06-01-2011, 09:12 PM	#2786
SicBastard Zilvia Addict Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: New York, NY Posts: 803 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	1997 Nissan 200sx Fail. __________________ BURN OUT IN YOUR FACE! 1998 S14 LS7/T56 swap in progress, build thread: http://zilvia.net/f/tech-talk/147301...d-gto-pan.html

06-01-2011, 09:32 PM	#2787
GripTerror Zilvia Addict Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Canada Age: 36 Posts: 685 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	maybe he's from europe so you fail LOL But they look completely different... at first i was like well.. aside from sloppy paint over it... the one on the left looks to have a shorter boot but then i saw the bottom is different too... so i wouldn't mess or cheap out.. i'd get exact ones and call it a day. Plus longer shank = roll center correction.

06-01-2011, 09:34 PM	#2788
GripTerror Zilvia Addict Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Canada Age: 36 Posts: 685 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	For example: Front: Rear:

06-01-2011, 09:44 PM	#2789
godrifttoday Post Whore! Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: los angeles Age: 37 Posts: 3,120 Trader Rating: (82) Feedback Score: 82 reviews	i will be replaing both lol .... just havent done the one to the left.. i wish i had something to measure them.... __________________ NEED Bolt kits for your car?

06-01-2011, 10:23 PM	#2790
!Zar! Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: North Korea Posts: 14,576 Trader Rating: (27) Feedback Score: 27 reviews	So it might be possible to use a 200sx ball joint on a s13? I know megan racing made balljoints for the flca, but I thought people said it didn't do anything... __________________

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