timing chain guides removed, now car won't start :-(

[fluidmotion]

Removed all the timing chain guides and the tensioner moved freely. After re-assembling, the car cranks but doesn't start.

The assembly of the distributor may not be correct. I installed the distributor according to the diagram in the "how to remove timing chain guides" on nico. Unfortunately, to start with, the first marking on the distributor was at TDC but the second marking may not have been because I already started to remove the distributor before I read to make the second marking.

Does the distributor have to be exactly correct? or should the car start even if the distributor is approximately in the right position?

Are there any other suggestions on how to start the car?

[projectRDM]

It won't start if it's not timed correctly. You're at least a tooth off.

[fluidmotion]

a tooth? I read that even if set at tdc, sometimes it is 180 off, so I tried setting it to tdc 6 times, and it still didn't work. I didn't replace the timing chain, I only removed the timing chain guides.....

[aznpoopy]

but you took out the distributor. if you don't put it back in exactly how you took it out, you'll need to reset timing...

put the car in gear and roll it until it is at btdc

http://www.240sx.org/faq/articles/pics/timing01.jpg

2nd mark from the left

now take out the dist and put it in so rotor is ready to fire on cyl 1. should be hash marks on the dist shaft. an easy way to check is to simply remove the cap and look at the rotor position.

voila.

start car and time it with a gun.

[fluidmotion]

yup, I did that several times, except setting it to tdc with the crank pulley.

Is there anything else that could be wrong? or how do most people test what would be wrong?

[aznpoopy]

maybe you're forgetting something

all the fuses back in? some people forget to put the fuel pump fuse back in after cranking to release pressure.

otherwise... car needs fuel, air and spark. check for em.

[fluidmotion]

pretty sure there is fuel, cause I can smell it, but how do I check for fuel, air and spark?

I put everything back the way it was... but do I need to take off the fuel pump fuse to release pressure after cranking?...

[pr240sx]

Or you think that you have the car at #1 TDC
Both cam lobes should be pointing the fenders (outside)
You should see the chain marks aligned with the cam.
When you install the distributor, check the rotation of the rotor. If you install it at #1 when fully flushed the rotor will point to a point between #1 and #3.Compensate for that. It is easier to remove the cap and mark the #1 on the distributor.
I had the same problem and I was at "my TDC" rotor at #1,timing mark on pulley ok, good crank, no run
When I was REALLY at 180 TDC!!!

[fluidmotion]

yup, I did all that... but I couldn't tell if it was 180 off or not... so I did it like... 6 times instead of opening the valve cover again and seeing the cams... still pondering on what the problem could be...

[fluidmotion]

ok, I'm clueless now. I took off the valve cover to make sure that the lobes are pointing in opposite directions (left and right), and they are.

I have spark (made sure by buying new spark plugs and wires and taking out distributor wires with spark plugs and cranking).

I have fuel because I can smell it all over the place (is there another way to check this?)

I have air, because when I hold my hand over the top of the cylinders with the spark plug and distributor wire removed, there is air being pushed out.

What else do I need? What else should I check?

The car is a S14. I have the car set to the correct TDC and the rotor on the distributor is set to spark plug wire 1.

When I try starting the car, the car is cranking and then there is a thumping noise while cranking. Not sure what that is. Also, I'm pretty sure this is normal, but there is a whining noise right before I stop trying to start it.

I'm really out of ideas, can anyone think of anything?

[aznpoopy]

you smell fuel all over the place?

take out your spark plugs and check for wetness.

or in my case, take a flash light and look inside cylinders and hope you don't see a huge pool of fuel.

[fluidmotion]

I did take out the spark plugs and I think they were a little damp. Even if the engine is flooded, doesn't it unflood over time? after I checked the spark plugs and they were damp, I waited approximately 15 minutes and tried again....

[aznpoopy]

haha sorry man

i only know how to unflood a rotary

for a piston engine i'm not sure

i think u just leave the plugs out overnight and let the gas evaporate

but like i said, i really don't know how to fix it

you could have a leaky injector... or its possible you flooded it from trying to start it unsuccessfully many times.

[fluidmotion]

It didn't look like there was any fuel on the end of the spark plugs when I just checked them.

I seafoamed the car about 2 weeks ago, would thiis have an effect on this?

also, when I'm looking inside the cylinders with the spark plugs out, it seems like there is a lot of carbon deposited inside, unfortunately I don't know what it is supposed to look like inside the cylinders, but could this be a problem?

Is there any chemical solution that can help to get the car started? I'm thinking it may be possible that the seafoam is hindering the ignition.

also, the car has a check engine light for egrc, crankshaft positiong sensor, and knock sensor. Could these be causing that?

[pr240sx]

You said that you have spark because you bought new things but do you actually have spark?
Try by testing spark itself on ground and physically check for spark.
Also, you could try rotating the ignition all the way foward and backward. You could have missed corrrect position for the dist. gear.
Also, when you crank, does the rotor rotates?
I spent 3 hours when I did this, I even thought that the pistons have hitted the valves because the strage sound of cranking without timing. Dont need to worry for this.
Also you can "unflood" or start a flooded engine by pressing down the accelerator while cranking ONE TIME, dont pump it, just press it down.
The seafoam does not affect in anyway your problem, excessive fuel in the cylinder does.
Perform all these test with the fuel pump fuse removed and work with patience!!!

[fluidmotion]

yup, I tested the spark plugs by pulling them out and leaving them on the distributor wires. The spark plugs all sparked in order. The distributor rotor does rotate as well as spark.

yea, I did read about holding down the gas pedal, but I thought they meant more of pumping it, so maybe that is my problem.

I'll give those things a shot when I get home from work. Thanks.

[fluidmotion]

I don't have to continuously set it back to TDC if I know that the distributor is on correctly, do I?.....

[king_johnthegreat]

You can have spark and in the correct order without the motor running simply because the timing is off. I think that is the primary issue. Not only do the plugs need to spark, in the proper order, but also at the proper time. They could be sparking in the cylinders, but if a valve is partially open or the cylinder is not rising on the compression stroke, there will be no power created in combustion. There is a difference between valve timing and ignition timing; i.e., you didn't change the valve timing becuase you never removed the chain. That only means that the cams are correct with respect to the crank. The distributor is not sync'ed correctly to the cams, though. Perhaps if the timing mark was placed on the cap and the cap was removed and reinstalled in a different position, or if the mark was simply not placed in the right spot, you would certainly be having these problems. Are you lining everything up with the gear/shaft housing witness marks? Some distributor drive gears have a dot on them that aligns with a small vertical witness mark on the base of the distributor shaft housing. I would try that...

John

[g2ic02]

hey what town are you located in? I live in mankato and would be willing to take a look at it isn't too far. Just post back up here or pm me again.

[krazyskata13]

yeah dude im having the exact same problem, i replaced my headgasket and put everything back together, i thought it was at TDC but today i was looking at my dist. and there was marking on there, is the rotor suposed to point at that marking or wtf? other then that everything else is good, and im having the same noises when i try to start the engine, turns over then pops.

[fluidmotion]

actually I got it to work... I'm not sure what it is, but I tried a combination of things.

1. Holding down the gas when starting.
2. spraying WD-40 in distributor cap (really humid here, maybe causing sparks to decrease in intensity).

3. Waiting over night with the spark plugs out so that there isn't any flooding.

4. Ensuring that I am at TDC by opening valve cover and making sure the cam lobes are in the correct position.

I did all this before, but it just seemed to work this time. I think it really was that the engine was flooded and 15 minutes just isn't enough time for it to unflood?... I'm not quite sure.

[aznpoopy]

glad you got it to work.

[pr240sx]

I am quite sure that your problem was related to spark.
Next time, if you want to start a flodded engine, crank it with the accel pedal down to the floor.

[fluidmotion]

oops my bad, I meant to say accelerator, but I said brake, but fixed now :-)