Which is more effective/fun?

[boywonder]

I just wanted to know you guys opinions on the topic. Drifting or powersliding. I would think powersliding is more effective, because you break the back end loose so it can continue on it's path more, while the front can turn sharper. Doing so pulls the back end around the turn in a gentler manner, using physics instead of HP and grip. In drifting (from my impression atleast), you're essentially using power, grip and your back wheels to make your way around the turn. You oversteer the turn alot to break your back end loose, then apply power, to make the car go where you want it to, using the rear wheels. Which is more fun? Both are extremely fun, but i think drifting would be (no RWD car yet &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('> &nbsp;). You would slide much more (fun stuff), and the power your car exerts to do so just feels sooooo cool. That's my opinion atleast. Maybe i'm completely wrong, but that's why I'm asking.

[DSC]

<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/eh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':eh:'>

I have no clue what you just said

Edit: well I'll give it a shot anyway
If done right, drifting should be faster and more fun than powersliding. &nbsp;Powersliding serves no real purpose, its basically just getting on full throttle too soon in the turn and your back end won't really go out untill your past the apex anyway. &nbsp;All powersliding does (with the exception of tight U turns and things of that nature) is slow you down.

[LanceS13]

Actually, a full-on countersteering drift isn't the fastest way around a corner either. &nbsp;However, slight drifting where the car is traveling where you want it without much steering input should be. &nbsp;It's harder to see from a spectator standpoint, so it's not as impressive to watch, but it can be felt from the driver's seat. &nbsp;These drifts often occur when a car "tracks out" of a corner, but the front wheels are pointed straight. &nbsp;

Now from a fun standpoint...not necessarily a fast one...it's hard to beat the adrenaline rush a full drift. &nbsp;It's also not an easy art to master. &nbsp;The few full drifts I've done were mistakes caused from putting down too much power while "tracking out."

[DSC]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (LanceS13 @ Mar. 31 2002,8:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Actually, a full-on countersteering drift isn't the fastest way around a corner either. However, slight drifting where the car is traveling where you want it without much steering input should be. It's harder to see from a spectator standpoint, so it's not as impressive to watch, but it can be felt from the driver's seat. These drifts often occur when a car "tracks out" of a corner, but the front wheels are pointed straight.

Now from a fun standpoint...not necessarily a fast one...it's hard to beat the adrenaline rush a full drift. It's also not an easy art to master. The few full drifts I've done were mistakes caused from putting down too much power while "tracking out."</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Ohh, Ohh, you talkin about slip angles? <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> see i'm learning, hehe

[BryanH]

Yep, Lance touched on the subtleties of slip angles. &nbsp;Great response, Lance. &nbsp;I'd like to add one thing in clarification... slip angles are generally referred to by tires, not the car itself, at least in my experience. &nbsp;So you can have the car in a situation where the slip angles will be different for each tire.

This brings up the word "drift." &nbsp;It can mean many things. &nbsp;A drift can be the wild tail-out style of taking a corner, it can be the very slight drift (which Lance mentioned) that is nearly imperceptible from a spectator's standpoint, and some people even say they 'drift' into another lane when they understeer around a turn. &nbsp;So, ehh, it's kindof a vague term. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'> &nbsp;But I think most of us take "drift" to mean the wild stuff that has been becoming more popular lately. &nbsp;When I speak of a subtle, beneficial drift with slight slip angles, I usually call it a 4 wheel drift. &nbsp;With those, ideally you want to have the steering pointed straight and have the car barely sliding as you get on the power. &nbsp;To me this is *sooo* fun, because it's a challenge to be able to do it without making many corrections. &nbsp;Steering with the throttle, they call it. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

Anyway, to (finally!<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'> answer the question posed in the topic... powersliding is a form of drifting [wild style]. &nbsp;Neither are desirable for fast lap times except in some unique circumstances. &nbsp;As for which is more fun, I like them both quite a bit.

[thich]

You can read up on some stuff about racing here (the line, slip angles, weight transfer etc.).. it's an awesome site. still haven't had time to read through everything:

Physics of Racing (http://www.esbconsult.com.au/ogden/locost/phors/phors.htm)

[SR20Fastback]

Wow that site is really good, thanks for the link

[tnord]

"slip angles are generally referred to by tires, not the car itself, at least in my experience"

slip angle refers to the direction the tires are pointed vs the direction the tires are traveling.

yaw angle referst to the direction the car is pointed vs the direction the car is traveling.

"These drifts often occur when a car "tracks out" of a corner, but the front wheels are pointed straight." &nbsp;

hey lance....
the actual "drift" you are talking about begins before the apex correct? which is induced by trail braking. and when the car is pointed in the desired direction the driver gets back on the throttle to transfer weight (traction) back to the rear, getting the yaw angle back to normal.

p.s. it makes sense in my head, but i have a hard time describing what i'm trying to say.

[LanceS13]

I believe that is the ideal situation, Travis. &nbsp;This "drift" can also be initiated by left-foot braking mid-corner...or initiating with trail-braking upon entry, maintaining with left-foot braking to apex, and tracking out under throttle from apex to exit.

[drifterX87]

If you are looking for fast lap times you should go grip around corners like in F1. &nbsp;Drifting is not meant (usually) to be done for speed, but rather to show how good you are at controlling your car (thats what it started as anyways). &nbsp;Aww hell, who cares. &nbsp;Its just my two cents.

Mike

[HippoSleek]

I take exception to trailbraking being the fastest way through corners. &nbsp;It can be, but only when it can be used effectively (which means only on certain corners). &nbsp;

While it can allow you to go into a corner at greater speed, it is only useful in certain situations (and then can often do more harm than good). &nbsp;Trailbraking is great when you are entering a corner after a bend that prevents you from threshhold braking in a straight line. &nbsp;However, the traction/friction circle dictates that your ability to brake limits your ability to steer. &nbsp;Thus, you reduce your ability to do one or the other well. &nbsp;

The fastest line would be to threshhold brake straight, turn, then throttle through the corner (which would provide a slight track-out drift and aid in any necessary additional rotation, but hopefully no tail-out jackassery). &nbsp;This is minimal time off the gas and maximum time on (which would lead to greater straightaway speeds). &nbsp;It is, however, only when there is a kink that prevents true threshhold braking that trailbraking becomes useful or effective.

BTW: I like the reference to F1 - that is always my reply to "drifting is faster"
BTW: time for a signature change...

[tnord]

Lance-i've heard about left foot braking, just never had the balls to try it. have you ever had any experience with it?


"but hopefully no tail-out jackassery"

haha..jackassery...way to make up a word hippo.

anyway.....i didn't mean to imply that trail braking is always the fastest way around a corner, it is not. iirc from the book i'm reading, trail braking works best when you have to slow down minimal amounts for a turn.

"the traction/friction circle dictates that your ability to brake limits your ability to steer. &nbsp;Thus, you reduce your ability to do one or the other well."

while this is absolutely true i have one point to make. do you not agree that at initial turn in, and until you get the wheel set, you are not using the full potential of the tires? so if there is still grip left during part of the cornering process, why not use the brakes at the same time?


btw-i like it when lance, hippo, and i get i get involved in a thread because it always turns into a driving technique discussion.

[thich]

left-foot braking for RWD:

www.drivingtechniques.co.uk

useful info.

[HippoSleek]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (tnord @ April 04 2002,09:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">btw-i like it when lance, hippo, and i get i get involved in a thread because it always turns into a driving technique discussion.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Nothing like hijacking a "driving style that is becoming a rhyming word for dicey" thread and making it productive.

As for the initial turn in part... after thinking about it, I don't think I have enough grip to do both at one time at initial turn in. &nbsp;I have one limit at this point - stock suspension (although this isn't nearly as debilitating in most situations as anyone thinks). &nbsp;Nevertheless, in other cars (i.e., my old heavily prepped Civic) I found that if I had any grip left over *at* turn in I wasn't threshhold braking. &nbsp;I think when done properly, there should be no pause between braking and turn in (but no overlap either) - or else you will induce understeer.

Also keep in mind that I run CarboTech Panther+ pads and I use them HARD (which is the best way!<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>, so I really do try to threshhold brake and turn in at the last possible instant.

[LanceS13]

Well said, Mark. &nbsp;I had a particular corner in mind and sorta dismissed other possibilities...my bad. &nbsp;This just goes to show how unique each curve is...the fast way around one corner may not be the fastest around another. &nbsp;It takes experience, practice, and the ability to see other lines/methods to try out and determining which one is the quickest for a particular corner. &nbsp;This will change as the handling characteristics of different cars change. &nbsp;A FWD car can't really be driven exactly like a RWD car would be.

drifterX87: &nbsp;I'm not talking about drifting in the tail-out "jackassery" <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/hehe.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':hehe:'> &nbsp;that has become so popular as of late. &nbsp;Next time you watch a GT race or something similar, carefully watch the attitude of the cars as they go through apex to corner exit as the race comes down to the end. &nbsp;The drivers are no longer pacing the tires and are pushing the car as hard as they may. &nbsp;If you watch closely, the cars are turning more than what you would think given the direction the tires seem to be pointing...this is the subtle "drifting" I speak of. &nbsp;

Travis, I left foot brake all the time at track days. &nbsp;I normally find it too difficult for the confines of autocrosses b/c of the position of my legs and the greater degree that I have to turn the steering wheel. &nbsp; My hands end up hitting my left leg either knocking my foot off the pedal or my hand off the wheel. &nbsp;However, in more open gates and slolams, I can get some benefit out of it...moreso for the quick transition from throttle to brake than for rotation purposes. &nbsp; At track days, I left foot brake at the ends of straightaways that do not require a heel/toe downshift so as to reduce the time between throttle and brake and back to throttle. &nbsp;I also do it in steady state sweepers to balance the car and get that extra rotation...that subtle drift. &nbsp;I also use it to a much lesser degree during high speed transitions.

[tnord]

say lance.......how much track experience do you have anyway?

i can definitely see the advantages of left foot braking in sections of track that require just a "tap" of the brake to transfer weight forward for better turn in, then immediately back to WOT

i figure i should master right foot braking before i start doin it with 2 feet

[sil80]

Very nice explanation guys.
Got a question though. I have been working on my left foot braking for a while(LOOOOOK OUUUT). Well i put in new pedels and now when I try and LFB I always hit my clutch. Has anyone else ran into this? Do you guys just run stock pedels?

[junia]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (tnord @ April 03 2002,3:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">say lance.......how much track experience do you have anyway?

i can definitely see the advantages of left foot braking in sections of track that require just a "tap" of the brake to transfer weight forward for better turn in, then immediately back to WOT

i figure i should master right foot braking before i start doin it with 2 feet</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I would use left foot braking when I'm approaching a corner and I want to slow down but not downshift, and I want to keep my boost up. &nbsp;You know sometimes you'll come to a section where if you upshift your car drops out of the powerband too much but if you downshift you know you'll be redlining(or limiter), thats when I like to left foot brake. &nbsp;Only thing is I'm sacrifising my brakes when I do this.

[BryanH]

Trailbraking is not staying full on the brakes while trying to turn. &nbsp;It is smoothly transitioning off of braking while getting into the turn. &nbsp;The more you turn the wheel, the less you should be on the brakes into a corner. &nbsp;

I also think trail-braking can be used often, and that avoiding it is not always the fastest way into a corner. &nbsp;There are cases where a long straight precedes a corner, and after that corner there is only a short straight (or another corner). &nbsp;In this case, your entry speed is more important than your exit speed. &nbsp;

Also for some cars, trail-braking is necessary to get the front end to bite going into a turn. &nbsp;That's certainly the case with my MR2.

The analogy to F1 cars isn't quite accurate either. &nbsp;We don't have massive amounts of downforce on super sticky tires like they do. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'> &nbsp;Anyone ever play Grand Prix Legends? &nbsp;Back in those days, when F1 cars had no wings and tires had tread on their hard compounds, subtle drifting was the order of the day.

[LanceS13]

<!--QuoteBegin--tnord+April 05 2002,1<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (tnord @ April 05 2002,1<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>2)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">say lance.......how much track experience do you have anyway?

i can definitely see the advantages of left foot braking in sections of track that require just a "tap" of the brake to transfer weight forward for better turn in, then immediately back to WOT

i figure i should master right foot braking before i start doin it with 2 feet</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I have three full track days under my belt...so not an incredibly large amount. My first track day was pretty much an extended lesson in left-foot-braking and heel-toe method courtesy one of the "old-timers" in our SCCA region. I specifically remember him telling me something to the tune of "may as well learn it right the first time than have to learn to use your feet all over again later."...maybe something to think about, Travis. Been autox'ing for two years.

As for the advantages...you'd be surprised just how much braking zone you can shave off by eliminating the time it takes to get your right foot from the throttle to the brakes. You can also modulate between brake and throttle to keep the car perfectly balanced in a steady state turn. Start to push? Ease off the throttle slightly (not fully) and apply a little brakes. Start to oversteer? Ease on the throttle a little more. Do it right and keep the adjustments subtle and smooth and you can keep the car in a state of "rotation" at a relatively constant speed throughout the entire curve.

Bryan H: &nbsp;nice call on the trailbraking issue.

[danwagar]

i think the best thing to do when it comes to manual tranny's is to start out left foot braking so you can overlap your transition off of throttle and on to &nbsp;brakes and then switch smoothly to righthand braking so you can heal and toe. &nbsp;or if your really good you could just do clutchless downshifts and keep on left foot braking. &nbsp; &nbsp;the thing i find to be the toughest is threshold braking and heel and toe downshifting at same time, this is much easier w/ clutchless downshift but prolly not the best thing for your tranny.