high heat pads vs 300zx brakes

[aznpoopy]

going to be running hpde events this upcoming season. was curious what some of u more experienced track ppl had to say. drive a s14 btw.

my friend is in hpde3 (drives an itR) and i told him about 5lug/300zx brakes; upon which he promptly called me a ricer. he said for hpde1 i can run stockity stock (probably right). for subsequent hpde2+ onwards he said i should just get aggressive heat tolerant pads instead of going the whole 300zx route.

obviously 300zx brakes + aggressive heat tolerant pads is ideal. but are the 300zx brakes really necessary? what if u get something like cobalt specVR - rated to grip up to 1550F? or carbotech xp8's?

[[email protected]#!]

For a novice in HPDE1, agressive track pads are probably not warranted.
A mostly stock car, should do great atleast so that you can find out what driver/car improvements you'd want to make.

As you progress in skill set, and in more advanced run groups, it may be a better idea to get more agressive pads, opposed to upgrading to 300zx brakes, for instance, just b/c everyone else does it. (i.e bandwagoning is great for what it is, bandwagoning)

now if youre still not happy with your braking system even with semi-track pads, you may opt for upgrading your braking system, whether its a big brake system or a 300zx system.

just remember that whatever you do to one system of your car, you may see/feel adverse effects on the other systems of your car. - i.e. running more agressive brakes, or larger brakes does a few things such as more unsprung weight, and you may need a stiffer suspension so that your vehicle doesnt nose dive during hard braking as much.

[98sr20ve]

Personally, I would just get some good pads from the start. I faded my brakes in HPDE 1 stuff pretty easy. They are not that expensive compared to the other route. Upgrade the brakes after you have gone thru your first set of pads if you think it's needed. At least the intial investment of some good pads will see you thru several events. Even with bigger brakes you still need some good pads.

[jmauld]

I'd get a set of good pads. It would suck to have to hold back because your pads can't keep up with you.

[thx247]

HPDE 1? wtf, its all the same.

XP8's will work fine for a stock powered car. If turbo you would need ducting, and more than likely will be cracking rotors still. Get the better pads over the brakes...cheaper pads, cheaper rotors, lighter weight, better feel than 300z brakes with so-so pads. (so-so being anything thats not a track pad)

Nose dive on braking...um so? You're trying to stop here, who cares if the nose dives.

[[email protected]#!]

HPDE 1? wtf, its all the same.
Nose dive on braking...um so? You're trying to stop here, who cares if the nose dives.

Nose diving = upsets car = slower turn in = slower out of turn speed.

idea is fast in, fast out. less nose dive implies you can turn in much quicker.

unless you like snap oversteer.

[Ritz S14]

Nose diving = upsets car = slower turn in = slower out of turn speed.

idea is fast in, fast out. less nose dive implies you can turn in much quicker.

unless you like snap oversteer.

Um. That's not true.

You want to go slow in and fast out. Slow in nose dive applies weight forward to the steering wheels so you can turn(more contact patch as you turn). As soon as you reach the apex you want to go fast out.

[nlzmo400r]

it depends on how much u can spend. Honestly, even with a nice set of rotors and pads on stock brakes, I've seen them fade on anything more than a 5lap spring around a road course (1.8mile). If you can swing it, get the 300zx brakes (not much more unsprung weight due to aluminum design as opposed to iron 240 calipers) and a good set of rotors/pads, and the feel will be just fine with a new m/c. And then you wont have to worry about not having enough braking.

[019]

stock brakes are fine, just get nicer pads. i've been running axxis ultimates and haven't had a problem with them fading at VIR or Road Atlanta using street tires. i'd also recommend getting some better brake fluid like ate superblue to keep fluid fade to a minimum.

[98sr20ve]

it depends on how much u can spend. Honestly, even with a nice set of rotors and pads on stock brakes, I've seen them fade on anything more than a 5lap spring around a road course (1.8mile).

No way stock brakes with racing pads would fade in that short of time. Racing pads will take so much abuse it's crazy. BTW, Get real racing pads. If it doesnt work well at 1200F you don't want it on your car. The pads you want will not be good for street driving.

[AKADriver]

Oh hell. I've used high-performance street pads with stock brakes and gone 20 minutes before I felt any fade.

I'd only go for a brake hardware upgrade in a 240SX if I had a major engine upgrade, as well. Turbo kit, swap, insane N/A engine, whatever.

[98sr20ve]

Oh hell. I've used high-performance street pads with stock brakes and gone 20 minutes before I felt any fade.


And I have seen Ultimates chunked to hell in 20mins on big brake setups. Sure you can do a 20 min session with stock brakes. But they will fade once you get fast. It's just a matter of time.

[aznpoopy]

hmm thanks for the responses everyone. gives me a bit to think about.

i'm probably going to run my stock + hawks for hpde1. already got ate blue in there, along with new OEM hoses... should be good, right? second event i'll try some aggressive race pads (with high heat rating, of course). if i ever start fading, then i'll upgrade to alum 30mm 300zx brakes with good pads.

[thx247]

Ultimates are ultimate suck if you're driving quickly. I faded the REAR ultimates I had...thats lame.

Nose dive isn't really a big deal, just drive smoother. Letting off the gas after braking would get the car oversteering...hey we're learning how to drift in this thread about brakes!

[Cr0usEEE]

only reason i went 300zx brakes was due to the fact that i got them cheaper than stockers....

but since i got them i will not go back...even in autox with the bigger mc and the rear twin pistons you can tell a difference. that and i got the aluminum uprights for the rear so overall the entire system is lighter for me.

[tastyratz]

might i ask why you would want new oem hoses? spl has them so cheap if your gonna get new hoses why not go with a quality teflon coated stainless line for ~100?

[aznpoopy]

i got a set for cheap. plus i didnt feel like going thru the ordeal of replacing those hoses every year. steel hoses fray on the inside where u cant see -> scary. kid i met had catastrophic failure and rear ended a crown vic in his typeR... fucked up his jdm front end. ouch. cause? stainless steal lines on his car for 2 years, never changed em.

[tastyratz]

not entirely, if built well they hold up nicely. problems with stainless lines is they fray by having an open exposed outside. The spl lines and some other companies like taka have a plastic sleeve that goes over the outside and protects them from damage. You are correct with that being an issue its just with unsleeved/coated lines. Also, DOT lines are just as good when it comes to fray. When a line gets dot approved they litterally whip it back and forth for a set time to see if anything seperates/frays/cracks/etc. I highly suggest a good set of quality stainless lines for your brakes.

[[email protected]#!]

Um. That's not true.

You want to go slow in and fast out. Slow in nose dive applies weight forward to the steering wheels so you can turn(more contact patch as you turn). As soon as you reach the apex you want to go fast out.

Um, it is true.

you want to go fast in, fast out. most cars, this is relatively possible, with the right driver, right equipment, and right circumstances.

nose dive applies weight forward, so you can turn, sure. what happens to the rear wheels? less contact patch. do you not see the inherent risk of snap oversteer? :duh:

people try to avoid this by 1) increasing tire width in rear, so more patch is achievable even during an unsettling 2) buying stiff suspension setup. (and dampening adjustment) - but snap oversteer will still occur...if the driver is not trained to avoid such said situation.

[jmauld]

A stock suspension 240sx DOES NOT snap oversteer. To the original poster, keep your original plan of working on the brakes and get on track. Doing suspension mods without seat time is just plain stupid. It's like playing darts in the dark. You "might" get lucky.

[98sr20ve]

Um, it is true.

you want to go fast in, fast out. most cars, this is relatively possible, with the right driver, right equipment, and right circumstances.

nose dive applies weight forward, so you can turn, sure. what happens to the rear wheels? less contact patch. do you not see the inherent risk of snap oversteer? :duh:

people try to avoid this by 1) increasing tire width in rear, so more patch is achievable even during an unsettling 2) buying stiff suspension setup. (and dampening adjustment) - but snap oversteer will still occur...if the driver is not trained to avoid such said situation.


You are so wrong. But first "slow" is a relative term here. Slow in this situation means that you could go a little faster in the first part of the corner BUT at the expense of sacrificing exit speed. This is how they will teach you to take a corner in HPDE1-3. 1) Brake in a straight line (so who cares about brake dive in a straight line). 2) Turn in smoothly and with one set of the wheel (no sawing the wheel back and forth). Learning #2 takes time. 3) Put the power down early in the corner and smoothly with out upseting the balance of traction on the rear tires. If you go in "Fast" as you describe you will be sacrificing how soon you can put the power down in the corner. Hence, "slow in fast out" is the norm for beginners. Are there exceptions to this rule. Sure but most corners on most tracks are a slow in fast out situation. The cure to snap oversteer (as you describe it due to braking) is to brake in a straight line. No teacher is going to like you braking with any level of force in a corner. They are going to scream pretty hard if you do this.

[Zachary]

I use rotora rotors, axxis ultimate pads, and goodridge steel lines all the way around. With the high temp motul fluid on my 240. I run this car in group 3 HPDE, and after a 20 minute session at thunder hill I had no brake fade. Even after all 4 sessions they felt great.

You also have to remeber that if you do the 4-piston 300z upgrade you are going to have brake balence problems. You will be locking up the font all the time.

[TRUENOCOUPE]

I can't believed I read the whole thread. I should have known the responses from Zilvia members.

I think there is only 5-10 guys that actually know what brake do, what brake does, and what is brake.

People. Stop buying crazy 100 piston superman high brake pads and 100 inch rotors. Its useless.

[aznpoopy]

I use rotora rotors, axxis ultimate pads, and goodridge steel lines all the way around. With the high temp motul fluid on my 240. I run this car in group 3 HPDE, and after a 20 minute session at thunder hill I had no brake fade. Even after all 4 sessions they felt great.


pretty much what i was looking to hear. thanks for your answers everyone.

I can't believed I read the whole thread. I should have known the responses from Zilvia members.


pretty much why i posted in motorsports instead of chat/tech. thought i might get a different kind of answer.

[Var]

A stock suspension 240sx DOES NOT snap oversteer.

:werd:
when you say "snap" you are getting beyond what braking in a corner does. You are talking about chassis balance. The only way you can make a 240 snap is if the car is setup wrong, or you yank the ebrake or clutch lock it at near maximum g-loads. 240's generally oversteer gradually and smoothly.

Brake pads...here is the easiest answer.

Try some real racing pads first. It will be the cheapest way to go. If it works, repeat. If not, then change the setup.

[ZK]

I'd say the pads > 300ZX brakes.

The larger rotors and caliper will allow you to stay cooler when braking but the pad material really matters. If you are going with big 300ZX brakes and some crap street pads, it won't even make a difference.

Get some Hawk HP+, excellent pad for light to medium track lapping and decent for street. It will make a lot of squealing noise and dust. I ran those for a few events on stock calipers and rotors and they work fine for track events. I changed to 300ZX brakes so it works even better now. :)

Your ATE Super Blue will need flushing after the event so get some brake fluid ready. Upgrade to Motul RBF600 would be a good choice when you next flush brak fluid.

[thx247]

with stock motor and Z32 brakes you dont need to bleed super blue because of boil. Its good for 8 events atleast before there it spounge in the pedal. I would question the motul fluid, anything with a boiling point that high is going to suck water just as quickly as super blue if not more. The additional expense imo is not worth it.

[ZK]

with stock motor and Z32 brakes you dont need to bleed super blue because of boil. Its good for 8 events atleast before there it spounge in the pedal. I would question the motul fluid, anything with a boiling point that high is going to suck water just as quickly as super blue if not more. The additional expense imo is not worth it.

I haven't tried the Super Blue with 300ZX brakes but with the stock calipers I've had to flush it after every event. The Motul does require more frequent flushing but the higher temps is well worth it. The Motul rep explained to me he recommended flushing very 6 months to a year so still pretty reasonable.


You also have to remeber that if you do the 4-piston 300z upgrade you are going to have brake balence problems. You will be locking up the font all the time.

There is no solution to this but you can help balance that by having more aggressive pads or larger rear calipers/rotors in back so braking is more even.

[aznpoopy]

There is no solution to this but you can help balance that by having more aggressive pads or larger rear calipers/rotors in back so braking is more even.

adjustable brake bias proportioner?

this may be internet heresy, but i also read somewhere that the 300zx fronts + s14 rear is the stock set up on japanese silvia K's, so it may just be a matter of finding the proper master cylinder.

[TRUENOCOUPE]

There is no solution to this but you can help balance that by having more aggressive pads or larger rear calipers/rotors in back so braking is more even.


No Solution to this?

You can have a brake bias propertioner.

[ZK]

No Solution to this?

You can have a brake bias propertioner.

Yes, that is a solution, my bad.

I was thinking of a solution without adjusting the proportioner...

[TurDz]

adjustable brake bias proportioner?

this may be internet heresy, but i also read somewhere that the 300zx fronts + s14 rear is the stock set up on japanese silvia K's, so it may just be a matter of finding the proper master cylinder.


that's correct. I remember sykikchimp had extensive calculations on brake bias and how a certain master cylinder would fix the problem of 300z fronts/s14 stock rear balance.

[019]

that's correct. I remember sykikchimp had extensive calculations on brake bias and how a certain master cylinder would fix the problem of 300z fronts/s14 stock rear balance.
yes, jdm s14's apparently have z32 fronts, s14 stock rear, and 15/16 mc