ITB's for my ka24de finished. *pics

[RBS14]

here's what I've been working on the past couple days. They're all done and ready to go on my S14, except for the fact that I don't have my standalone. :(

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/top3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/top2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/top1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/front2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/front1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/bottom1.jpg

Bet ya havn't seen that before eh? haha

[Ritz S14]

Looks sweet. What's the approximate HP gain on that?

[ThatGuy]

:eek2: :drool: :rawk: :rawk:


Completely Awesome!!!

[SlideStar]

:rawk: :bowdown: " OooAhhhhh " Thats some nice work!
Lets see some pics when it's on the car! And a dyno sheet would be sweet too!

[blu808]

I like it. All motor. Scott this will be very drivable with usable power if it is tuned correctly.

I have a hook up on haltech if you are still looking.

Give us some specs man. Brands sizes.

[eyustfu]

nice set up..what did the itbs come off of btw?

[skatanic28]

very nice.

hard to tell from the pics, are the bends smooth between the itbs and runners?

what are you doing for airflow metering and a filter?

[S14DB]

Did you port match the ITB's to the Mani. I think you're going to run into some flow problems.

[RBS14]

haha sorry.

'03 GSXR 1000 TB's. Secondary butterflies removed. Stock S14 intake mani, runners chopped off.

Luke, thanks for the offer, but I'll be using a megasquirt. I'll be sure to post vid and dyno charts when they are on the car.

Yes, I filed out the runners to match up with each TB. Pics make the bends on #1 and #4 look tighter than they are.

Run into flow problems with ITB's? hahahahah

[Tygma]

Details? that shit is awesome...

[2JZGTE]

Badass :wackit:

[-E-]

fuckin sweet :drool:

[SilviaDriver]

haha sorry.

'03 GSXR 1000 TB's. Secondary butterflies removed. Stock S14 intake mani, runners chopped off.


my brother was doing this to his GSR then later decided to sell it and do turbo but dont u think those are a tad bit too small?

[RBS14]

no, actually they are a great size for our engines. They are within about 2mm of the diameter of the stock intake manifold runners, which is great. If you were to use TB's much bigger than these, you would have issues with vacuum. Most aftermarket ITB's for 4 cylinders use TB's between 40mm and 45mm. The ones I used are 43mm.

[AlligatorBling]

mad fucking props to you my man. dont hold out on us, keep us updated on this project, i have been thinking about doing that from day one with my KA.

[SilviaDriver]

most 4cyl use ITB around 40-45mm but for wat size engine?

ITBs can be found all over the honda world and they are 1.8L as we know. most of the time they use 45mm minimum for ITB. we are 2.4L. some honda people use 48 and even 50mm for a better top end.

a 43mm used on a 1.8 is mid range goal. your using 43mm on a 2.4 thats y i said "isnt it a tad bit too small?"

what is your power goal?

[MakotoS13]

you are a MADMAN and i think i wanna know WTF the gains are on what appears to be insanity!


ROCK!

[RBS14]

those guys who use TB's bigger than 45mm cant hardly idle because they are so big. They also make NO low-end power. I'd like to keep a *little* low end power and torque below 4k. I can also change the characteristics of the TB's dramatically by simply changing velocity stacks. I could have gone bigger but these TB's were only $165 shipped, as opposed to $1000+ for bigger ones. I'm too poor to spend that kind of $.

Power goal? as high as I can.

[s13irdie2]

thats insane!!! keep us updated.

[s14falcon]

So awesome!
see, now this is what we need to be seeing here on the forums.
keep up the good work man.

[SilviaDriver]

those guys who use TB's bigger than 45mm cant hardly idle because they are so big. They also make NO low-end power. I'd like to keep a *little* low end power and torque below 4k. I can also change the characteristics of the TB's dramatically by simply changing velocity stacks. I could have gone bigger but these TB's were only $165 shipped, as opposed to $1000+ for bigger ones. I'm too poor to spend that kind of $.

Power goal? as high as I can.

1. I've seen 1.8L engines make 15whp in the midrange 4.5-6.5k. 6-9whp up top. This is on 45mm ITBs!

2. They idle just fine

Low end is 4k? isn't your redline 6.5k? Your definition of 'low end' is actually 'mid-range'.

You wont be able to change your ITBs characteristics to have more 'top end' b/c of the 43mm throttle plate. By adding a velocity stack, your gains will be placed even lower in whole rpm band.

Again, your ITBs will be too small for a 2.4L engine.

PS: this is SilviaDriver's brother (a honda owner)

[atom]

you are a MADMAN and i think i wanna know WTF the gains are on what appears to be insanity!


ROCK!

It's not that crazy, home made ITB's have been the hotness on Honda's for probably about a year now, if not more.

And saying a 45mm can't idle is just wrong, the TWM setup on Honda's are all 50mm or bigger and they don't have problems idling.

Just one quick question, any reason you aren't using the injector mounts on the TB's?

[Dousan_PG]

cool deal scooter
but still will be slow as fuck
hahahahaha j/p bro

good luck
whats th eta to get this running? 2 years? GET A JOB!! hahahaha

[SilviaDriver]

It's not that crazy, home made ITB's have been the hotness on Honda's for probably about a year now, if not more.

And saying a 45mm can't idle is just wrong, the TWM setup on Honda's are all 50mm or bigger and they don't have problems idling.

Just one quick question, any reason you aren't using the injector mounts on the TB's?

atom hit the nail on the head. :werd: The honda world is extremely seasoned when it coems to ITBs.

BTW, using the GSXR injector locations will aid in better fuel atomization and give you more power. An injector position too far away will lead to idle problems as fuel will 'puddle'.

Props for trying it but you're going to be disappointed.

[RBS14]

I'm not going to argue with you (silviadriver) and/or your brother. I think these will be just fine for the ka. They have been used with great results on sohc's, so I don't see why it won't work on mine. TWM doesn't even make a kit for this engine, and the kits they do make are $1500 and up. I did this whole thing for $250, with stacks. I'd rather save a thousand+ dollars than get an extra 5hp up top. I guess you could justify paying that, but I can't.

Thanks for your input tho. I just don't happen to agree with it.

Cheers!

[FRpilot]

if driftaholics high comp ka lived, i would have liked to see these on his car..

[240silvia]

:lockd: :hitit:

[SilviaDriver]

I'm not going to argue with you (silviadriver) and/or your brother. I think these will be just fine for the ka. They have been used with great results on sohc's, so I don't see why it won't work on mine. TWM doesn't even make a kit for this engine, and the kits they do make are $1500 and up. I did this whole thing for $250, with stacks. I'd rather save a thousand+ dollars than get an extra 5hp up top. I guess you could justify paying that, but I can't.

Cheers!

No one is really arguing. This is a discussion. Have fun.

[SilviaDriver]

So, what do you not agree with?

50mm ITBs idle fine.

45mm ITBs are seen to gain midrange. More so than high end. (1.8L)

[that180guy]

Badass :wackit:


:werd: that is fucking BADASS!!!!!

cant wait to hear a sound clip man
gotta love the na, turbos are for pussies :p

[RBS14]

I don't agree with you when you say they will be too small. if I had gone with 45's would you say they are too small? wooo hooo 2mm!

Deviouska has these same tb's on his sohc, and he's gotten great results. I'll side with him, instead of with someone (no just you) who hasn't done them on a ka.

Here's the bottom line:

-they will be an INCREDIBLE improvement over the stock manifold + intake piping.
-they were WAY cheaper than ANY other tb's I could have gone with.
-B series honda engines are completely different in design (rod/stroke ratio etc.) than ka's. Saying a B18 responded in X way from ITB's in no way means a ka will respond in the same way.

Mods: this is all in fun and games, please don't think it's a pissing contest and lock it. :)

[240sx2nr95]

very cool! make sure and get some pics when installed!

-Dan

[z_boi]

you just cant handle a turbo alex....really nice set up tho...

[radhaz]

Great initiative! I'm looking forward to following the progress on this. http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/otn/blobs/ukliam2.gif

[ledzeppelin240]

Nice setup. It was mentioned that they work and the SOHC. The SOHC has a lower CFM than the DOHC. I thought that should be added in...

[Drunk Bastard]

great job RBS14!!!!!!!1 I can't wait to see the follow ups on this project!!

[sLiDewAys]

Scott, looking good man, ghetto ITB set up is madd Santa cruz'ish. FHA SHOSKIE!!!

lol, but it looks really good man. i hope to see you and it arround sometime. later and wishes for the best

brandon

[Rennen]

Good job, nice to see you taking the first step and trying them out!
:bigok:

I am definitely interested to see how this goes since I will be trying a similar setup in the near future.

I may just suck at reading tonight but... how are you going to meter the air going through this whole mess, and what kind of ECU are you using. That is my main concern between the decision between ITBs/carbs.

-Matt

[RBS14]

I'll be using a MegaSquirt standalone. It uses a map sensor, so it's perfect for ITB's.

[revat619]

Scott, that's frickin awesome! Definitely keep us updated on the progress!

lookin good. :bow:

[kandyflip445]

When you stick that on and are reving your engine, will it not eventually work the ITBs out of those rubber tubes? It is a great idea though. make sure to get a sound clip/vid.

[RBS14]

no, it won't come apart. That's how they are from the factory on GSXR's, so I figure it'll work for me too.

[SR240DET]

what are you using for your ignition system? megasquirt isnt compatable with our setup.... are you using EDIS? lemme know how that goes.. :)

[SilviaDriver]

I don't agree with you when you say they will be too small. if I had gone with 45's would you say they are too small? wooo hooo 2mm!

Deviouska has these same tb's on his sohc, and he's gotten great results. I'll side with him, instead of with someone (no just you) who hasn't done them on a ka.

Here's the bottom line:

-they will be an INCREDIBLE improvement over the stock manifold + intake piping.
-they were WAY cheaper than ANY other tb's I could have gone with.
-B series honda engines are completely different in design (rod/stroke ratio etc.) than ka's. Saying a B18 responded in X way from ITB's in no way means a ka will respond in the same way.

Mods: this is all in fun and games, please don't think it's a pissing contest and lock it. :)

Yup. Different engines. Yours has more stroke which means faster pistons speeds. Which also means those ITBs will run out of breathe sooner.

BTW, every mm makes a difference. Did you know bores are measured to the 0.0001"? Does that make a difference? Yup. Bearings are measured to the 0.001"? Someone who says 1mm doesn't make a difference is not paying attention to the details. 45mm would still be too small for your KA.

[RBS14]

Yes, I am using EDIS with the ms.

[Andrew Bohan]

if driftaholics high comp ka lived, i would have liked to see these on his car..

fo sho, i was already researching it.

looks sick man. good luck with it.

[nismo2491]

I just want to say thats tight.

as far as them being too small I have no opinion or knowledge on that but for the sake of argument that 2 mm is a big difference:

area of a 43mm ITB: 1452.20 mm square

area of a 45mm ITB: 1590.43 mm square

thats almost 140square mm, which is a lot of space.

and for more infor 50mm is 1963.49 mm square almost 500 more square mm

let the math speak for itself but I'm sure there is big differences in airflow between all three. BUT at the same time I bring to light Car Craft magazines recent 454 shootout where the dynoed 2 very similarily set up (same cam profiles, same valves, same compression and combustion chamber size, same carb, etc), basically as close as you could get. they dynoed a small block 454 and a big block 454 and because of the smaller valves on the small block that kept up the velocity of the air the small block had more power all the way through the range, and more peak power. only at 3 points did the big block squeeze out a tad more power. so smaller is better sometimes.
KEvin

[YellwMonky]

this has got to be one of the coolest things i've seen on this forum ! great job and keep us updated !! I'm very interested to see the results

[sideviewcivic]

I just want to say thats tight.

as far as them being too small I have no opinion or knowledge on that but for the sake of argument that 2 mm is a big difference:

area of a 43mm ITB: 1452.20 mm square

area of a 45mm ITB: 1590.43 mm square

thats almost 140square mm, which is a lot of space.

and for more infor 50mm is 1963.49 mm square almost 500 more square mm

let the math speak for itself but I'm sure there is big differences in airflow between all three. BUT at the same time I bring to light Car Craft magazines recent 454 shootout where the dynoed 2 very similarily set up (same cam profiles, same valves, same compression and combustion chamber size, same carb, etc), basically as close as you could get. they dynoed a small block 454 and a big block 454 and because of the smaller valves on the small block that kept up the velocity of the air the small block had more power all the way through the range, and more peak power. only at 3 points did the big block squeeze out a tad more power. so smaller is better sometimes.
KEvin

I got that issue. Great job on the ITBs man. I think your set up will work nicely since DOHCs generally fall out of the powerband past 6K unless you plan to do headwork and cams. If you get cams and headwork :boink: oh oh baby I wanna be there for dyno days!!!!

[atom]

45mm would still be too small for your KA.

Not necessarily.

Bigger displacement = use bigger throttle plate diameter
rev higher = use bigger TP diameter
Higher flowing head = use bigger TP diameter


So compared to Honda's, KA's rev much lower, have a worse head, but has .6 liters more displacement...........hard to say. But if I were to personally piece together my own setup I'd probably try the 46mm Busa throttles.

Also better throttle response = use smaller TP diameter so that's another thing to think about.

[ootranceformeroo]

Looks great scott! yeah for sure post pics and a possible vid when you get it installed on your car! Should be dope!

[Maeda]

Damn thats weird.
Are you supposed to run 4 pipes out of the intercooler or what?
How does all the boost go into those seperate things?

Oh yah thats right there isn't any to speak of. :D

[S14DB]

Damn thats weird.
Are you supposed to run 4 pipes out of the intercooler or what?
How does all the boost go into those seperate things?

Oh yah thats right there isn't any to speak of. :D
The RB26DETT uses ITB's...

[AKADriver]

Yep! You can use ITBs with a MAF, too, Nissan, BMW, and Toyota have all done it successfully. You just need a plenum over the throttles.

[projectRDM]

I was expecting a nicely welded manifold, not a chop job with ITBs stuck on with rubber couplings. Although the idea is a good one, the execution leaves a lot to be desired. You could have easily welded the pieces together, then grinded and smoothed the beads down inside and out, even going as far to remove the casting marks to give it a production finish. Plus leaving all the OE flanges and extrusions for various parts that are no longer used makes it look very 'backyard' done.

Still curious to see the power gains up top, and the overall loss of lowend torque.

[Jeff240sx]

JFC Russ! Everyone's "Get it welded because it looks like ass" is.. well.. stupid. The aluminum intake manifold and [I assume] aluminum throttle bodies need to be welded with an ac/dc tig, or heli-arc'd. Both of these require special welders with skill, which makes it expensive. I couldn't see him taking it somewhere and paying less than $200 to weld the TBs to the intake runners. And spending another $200 on what people have called un-proven would be a waste. Let him put the stuff on with silicone couplers, test it, if it doesn't work, he's only out a few hundred.. not nearing $1000.
-Jeff

[Maeda]

Yep! You can use ITBs with a MAF, too, Nissan, BMW, and Toyota have all done it successfully. You just need a plenum over the throttles.

I know. I'm not speaking out of ignorance (although sometimes its hard to tell with me), it's sarcasm. It's an ongiong joke I have with the poster.

[RBS14]

well I'm glad you don't like it. But I sure do. Did you not read the part about them using couplers from the factory on GSXR's? maybe it's ghetto to you, but it's solid as a rock, so I don't see any reason to change it. What gain would there be from welding the ends of the runners together? They aren't going to flex at all now, so why do it? Casting marks on the inside are almost unnoticeable and VERY small. Not worth the work IMO. grinding down casting marks on the outside? how does that help performance? I don't care how it looks, just how it performs.

Also, welding the TB's to the manifold would cause quite a problem If I were ever to need to switch them out with different ones. If one gets damaged or the such, I would have to re-fabricate a whole new setup from the beginning.

I've done all of this thus far with a hack saw and hand files. I don't have any power tools, so I'm pretty happy with how it turned out with the tools I have used.

From what I've been told by people who have done it, low end torque loss is very minimal. The gain in top end will more than make up for any minimal low end losses.

Jeff: exactly!

John: I plan to do it with hopes and dreams fyi!

[sykikchimp]

definately interesting. I don't think I've ever seen a DOHC with itb's..

[MakotoS13]

i just thought of something. it looks nice and im sure gets lots of air in but i don't like the TB's not being physically mounted with something other than tubing.

i'd like to take this opportunity to retract my orginal enthusiasm.

[allmotorKA]

When I put 45mm ITBs on my KA24E, there was viturally no low end loss...gain if anything. But I would have to agree with Russ on the point to ditch those rubber couplings. Yeah, that's what they use on the motorcycles but on motorcycles they are set up as down drafts...not side drafts. If you want to cantilever those ITB's on rubber hose couplings (some of which looks misaligned to begin with) then you're only exposing yourself to unnecessary risk. Don't get me wrong, RBS14, you're actually off to a good start. Just don't half ass it...then your set up will be primo.

[NismoDan]

DAMN! I was researching this a few months back and thought I'd be one of the only ones to do it!
In any case, bravo, it looks sweet.
I only have 2 questions, though.
First, what are you going to do for air filtering?
When I first started putting my plans together I looked for a GSX-R airbox on eBay and found a few. I figured I'd just stick a huge pipe from the front of the engine bay back to the GSX-R airbox where it has an intake filter and then splits off for the ITB's. Did you have any plans for anything like that?
Also, do you see any problems arising from the throttle/accelerator cable and/or TPS?

Sorry to be such a bother, but I didnt know what to do about those 2 things either. :D

Again, bravo!

[KA24DESOneThree]

GSX-R1000 throttle bodies start at 50mm and taper to 42mm. Simply multiplying 42mm by four, we get 168mm. The stock throttle body is all of 60mm. Am I missing something here?

Namely, why flow would be a problem. At all.

[RBS14]

Makoto: no can do. Original enthusiasm stands. haha

Allmotorka: I would prefer to bolt them on, but that would mean making a custom flange for both the TB's and manifold, and have both welded onto the TB's and mani. The TB's have no bolt holes or mounting points. I highly doubt the current setup will be a problem, as the TB's are very very solidly secured to the mani. It is very hard to move them at all.

Jarbilong: I'm using the GSXR tps. It is very easy to interface to the MegaSquirt. won't take long at all. I'll be running 4 individual sock filters. I'll slip them over the stacks, clamp them on, and I'm done.

ka24desonethree: I concur.

[atom]

GSX-R1000 throttle bodies start at 50mm and taper to 42mm. Simply multiplying 42mm by four, we get 168mm. The stock throttle body is all of 60mm. Am I missing something here?

Namely, why flow would be a problem. At all.


You can't make a comparison like that because theres a plenum where air is being drawn into the engine. Try thinking about it in reverse, 60mm/4 = 15mm. Obviously 15mm ITB's are not going to work. What's more important would be the intake manifold runner diameter, not the TB diameter.

EDIT: bah brain fart, actually 30mm ITB's would have the same flow as a single 60mm, not 15mm. It's still not gonna work.

[TokyoNights]

RBs14 cool that youre even attempting this, cant wait to see the results. Im building a high comp s13 de motor and was considering ITB's. What do you guys think about using e30 m3 throttle bodys? The bore diameter is 46mm.
http://i22.ebayimg.com/01/i/02/fb/71/3e_3.JPG
They would require a custom flange.

[TokyoNights]

RB how come you didnt use hayabusa tb's arent they a little bigger?

[FRpilot]

you just cant handle a turbo alex....really nice set up tho...

yes. turbo cars are for pussies? bahh.. :loco:



fo sho, i was already researching it.

looks sick man. good luck with it.

and dam you red 240 hc ka block! and why did you have to get an FC.. you coulda rebuilt the hc ka better than before.. but i understand you were broke..

[RBS14]

mikespeed: They are much harder to find, and quite a bit spendier. I'm a poor college student as of now, so almost every choice I make regarding the car is largely based on cost.

I'm not really pioneering anything here. It's been done on sohc, so I'm just replicating it for dohc. I know these work, have correct spacing, etc. so I went with them. If I'm not happy, I can just sell them and start over with other ones.

[TokyoNights]

Gotcha, happen to know the bore sizes on the hayabusa ones? They look almost exactly the same.
http://i11.ebayimg.com/01/i/02/f6/94/2e_3.JPG
Also how about injectors, are you going to use the stock injectors in stock location?

[RBS14]

supposedly they are 46mm. I am not 100% sure on that. yes I will be using stock injectors in stock location for now. When I max them out, I will go with 370's.

[nokeone]

fuckin rockin...it'll work...might not be the end all be all..but it'll be better then stock, worth the cost that you have wisely kept low, and shit, what a fun project...=)...

[RBS14]

werd holmes. Paired with some good tuning, it should make ka much more fun.

[that180guy]

you just cant handle a turbo alex.......

turbo shnurbo....bfd

[axiomatik]

GSX-R1000 throttle bodies start at 50mm and taper to 42mm. Simply multiplying 42mm by four, we get 168mm. The stock throttle body is all of 60mm. Am I missing something here?

Namely, why flow would be a problem. At all.

Yes, you are missing something. Four 42mm tubes are not equivalent to one 168 mm tube:
http://www.stanford.edu/~brindley/tbcomp.GIF

If you want to compare the two, you have to compare cross-sectional area:

60mm => 2827 mm^2

42mm => 1385 mm^2

42mm x 4 => 5542 mm^2

However, it's not as simple as "ITB's will flow 2x as much air". The throttle plates in the ITB's take up a larger proportion of the cross-sectional area than the single throttle body, with ITB's, the air doesn't have to make a 90 deg. turn transitioning from the throttle body to the intake runners, etc. But in the end, the ITB's should flow substantially better than the stock setup.

[hiryu]

Great thread, just what I needed to kill time in class.

[Loofee95SE]

Hmm, everything looks nice and all. but why don't u take it to a shop to have them weld it together..instaed of connecting both of them with silicone tubing like that... look nice tho...something I am looking in to doing myself...w the Hayabusa TB's just my .02 C

[nokeone]

read closer..it has all already been explained..lol...jeeez..

1, they come just like this from the factory...he figures if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for him...

2, cost...it's not worth the money to get them professionally welded

3, replacement..if something goes wrong having them welded would be a bad idea...

kthxbye

[sykikchimp]

so, to be clear.. the map sensor will connect to vacuum tubing that is connected to all the runners behind the throttle plates via "T"'s?

[RBS14]

yea, you can see 4 gray vacuum hoses coming together into a black T. Run vacuum hose from there to the map sensor. The larger vacuum rail that is at the end of the mani that bolts onto the head is originally used for pcv system. I'll be using it for brake booster.

Noah, thanks. Zilvia.net is proof that reading comprehension needs to be focused more closely on in public schools.

[Maeda]

Noah, thanks. Zilvia.net is proof that reading comprehension needs to be focused more closely on in public schools.

SERIOUSLY Scoot. I replied to my own LSD post like 3 times to tell people to learn how to read.

and those ITBS are looking crappier the longer they don't go on your car.

[tastyratz]

i know it was touched that we know it can idle but how is idle controlled? i know the stock tb has a little valve on it to control idle, but what about with this setup? forgive me for ignorance but i know nothing of motorcycles and youve sparked my interest. im assuming this is something else your using the megasquirt to control too. Ive got an aem ems waiting to go on in my room i could control something like this with. I have a SOHC im gonna turbo and itbs seem like they could flow more. I can find the setup for the sohc (barely) but it seems i can only find it with carbs and not the way id want to so id have to build it like you are. this is all very interesting...

[meatish]

Congratulations. Your car will now sound like a small block chevy+vacuum cleaner.
Good DIY job though, looks dope.

[TokyoNights]

sooo you used jb weld to plug the injector holes eh?

[RBS14]

Idle control? simple. A screw on the side of the TB's that adjusts how open the throttle plates are when "closed". Just like stock. MegaSquirt just reads the tps signal and gives the engine the programmed amount of fuel. No extra valves or anything. All that stuff is gone.

$$$ not considered, I'd go for an EMS too. But MS costs under $200, so that's my choice.

Mikespeed: I actually found bolts of which the heads just barely fit into the holes, cut the heads off, put them into the holes, and then filled the rest up with jbweld. Since the injector holes are on the bottom of the tb's, the worst that could happen is that the jb would crack and fall out, not get sucked into the engine. Otherwise I would have had them welded shut. But as stated before, heliarc welding is mondo expensive.

[TokyoNights]

Engine managment is the killer,,either dish out a shitload for standalone or the cheap but pain in the ass megasquirt. I hope you get the MS worked out :)

[atom]

Engine managment is the killer,,either dish out a shitload for standalone or the cheap but pain in the ass megasquirt. I hope you get the MS worked out :)

Or you could just make a plenum and attatch your maf to it........

[RBS14]

^^^^^

which would be total weaksauce!!! Open ITB's make considerably more power than with a plenum covering them. I'm doing this to open up top end breathing. Putting a plenum on them would just decrease their ability to suck in a ton of air during higher rpm's.

Mikespeed: I've got a ton of time, so MS is perfect for me. Another friend who built his likened the difficulty level of building one to that of building a 1/18th scale model. there are soooooo many pages of instructions, which equals lots of detail on how to do everything.

[atom]

A plenum isn't weak, as long as you make it big enough. The theory anyways is to make the plenum as big as the engine bay will allow so that it will practically be like open atmosphere. I was seriously considering this:

http://www.tweakit.net/shop/product_info.php?cPath=57_49_30&products_id=127

I e-mailed them a long, long time ago and shipped to America the total cost would was somewhere near $250. Using that with a 3.5" Q45 MAF and theres no way a KA, even a built one with ITB's, is flowing enough to make that some bottleneck.

[Sideways_In_SD]

All you haters are fuggin weak sauce!!!

This is a pro-to-type, :mephfawk:

That's why it looks like shit, and isn't "optimized" for "flow characteristics" and "volumetric efficency" :jerkit:

If you're not impressed, just say "neat" and move on, cause this is just the beginning stages.

And not everyone is sponsored by Parents Inc. so it keeps our projects low-cost, and low-tech. WOO HOO broke-as-fuck tuning!!

:rofl:

[SilviaDriver]

All you haters are fuggin weak sauce!!!

This is a pro-to-type, :mephfawk:

That's why it looks like shit, and isn't "optimized" for "flow characteristics" and "volumetric efficency" :jerkit:

If you're not impressed, just say "neat" and move on, cause this is just the beginning stages.

And not everyone is sponsored by Parents Inc. so it keeps our projects low-cost, and low-tech. WOO HOO broke-as-fuck tuning!!

:rofl:

and how are u adding/helping the thread??? if you have nothing to say y dont you stfu? there has been approx 2 pages of discussion until you jumped in and made yourself look stupid.

[S14DB]

This rocks: http://www.tweakit.net/shop/product_info.php?products_id=113

[RBS14]

Actually, he's been helping me with it all along, giving me imput, ideas and such. It would appear that you are the one not helping... so why don't U STFU! sounds good to me. :)

The theory anyways is to make the plenum as big as the engine bay will allow so that it will practically be like open atmosphere.

Actually, that is not the idea at all. You don't know much about fluid dynamics do you? An incorrectly sized plenum will fuck up your intake air flow characteristics enough that you can lose a lot of power. There are a TON of things that need to be considered when making a plenum. if you are boosting, it will cover up some mistakes, but not many. On n/a, it's got to be perfect to make any reasonable power.

[SilviaDriver]

Actually, he's been helping me with it all along, giving me imput, ideas and such. It would appear that you are the one not helping... so why don't U STFU! sounds good to me. :)
.

you want help? heres a helping advice, the things gonna choke but you can figure that out for urself

and who ever said we were hating???? strange how poeple comprehend things

[RBS14]

riiiiiiight. since you seem to know this as a fact, can you please post up a dyno chart and pics of these TB's on a ka? that'd be great, thanks.

If you can't complete the request above......




























STFU :mrmeph:

Nobody (except you and your honduh brother) share your opinions. So why don't you do us all a favor and leave.

On a side note: you've got to be an idiot to think that 4 individual TB's with the same size throttle plate diameter as the runners is going to "choke". hahahah

[atom]

Actually, that is not the idea at all. You don't know much about fluid dynamics do you? An incorrectly sized plenum will fuck up your intake air flow characteristics enough that you can lose a lot of power. There are a TON of things that need to be considered when making a plenum. if you are boosting, it will cover up some mistakes, but not many. On n/a, it's got to be perfect to make any reasonable power.

Did you even read what I wrote? Do you even know the point of an air box on an ITB setup? It's only purpose is to provide an enclosed area to draw air from (and in the case of a MAF to meter air) and that's it.

In a regular maifold you need to tune for the intake pulses etc. to provide optimal flow, in an ITB'd car you don't because it's the ITB's that you want controlling flow. If you are going to use an airbox you actually want as little interference from the airbox as possible, including pressure pulses. And the larger the air box the weaker the pressure pulses will be, which is what you want.

[RBS14]

I thought you were talking about regular single tb on huge intake mani. My bad. MAF sensors are quite inefficient to start with, so making a plenum just to use one seems stupid. Might as well run open tb's with a map sensor. It's just extra weight that you don't need. If you are trying to achieve open atmosphere conditions, why not just run open?

[atom]

Well besides running a MAF, you can duct it to provide cold air. Cold air is still important.

[tastyratz]

now if i remember correctly there needs to be some sort of computer controlled valving for letting intake air in besides just adjusting the amount the butterflies are open. (you know, how the car revs up and down on its own compensating for engine/weather/etc conditions) i cant think of the name of it but...

[S14DB]

now if i remember correctly there needs to be some sort of computer controlled valving for letting intake air in besides just adjusting the amount the butterflies are open. (you know, how the car revs up and down on its own compensating for engine/weather/etc conditions) i cant think of the name of it but...
Idle Air Control valve?

[nightwalker]

idle air control should not be a problem with a map car. The slight opening of the throttle bodies should compensate for that. But I don't think the IACV has been removed?

I like the pioneering though. All you haters go jerk off somewhere. Hate, or tell him "We told you so" when he's done with it and it doesn't work.

I have friends with ITB setups on different cars, they all sound badass, and make good power. I'm patiently waiting to see what comes out of RBS14's project.

[RBS14]

yes, IACV is gone too. EVERYTHING on stock intake manifold is gone. As well as every part of the stock intake system, save the 6" of manifold.

The MegaSquirt uses a map sensor, which measures barametric (sp?) pressure. MS also uses air temp sensor. Between the two, it can idle the car wonderfully. The stock ECU basically has a mind of its own. MS does exactly as you tell it to, so no fluctuating idle, no self adjusting a/f ratio, and no self adjusting timing etc. MS2 is coming out soon, and it has a setup where you can set a target a/f and it will hold to it. Pretty sweet. And with MS you can make another more conservative fuel/ignition map that MS defaults to if it detects knock on your regular fuel/ignition map. [/off topic]

[1sikgti]

I noticed your not to far from me an was curious if you could tell me more if this works on an obd2 s14 or not? An if so,would you be willing to build me a setup an install,provided I brnig you the parts in the near future?

[RBS14]

Yes, this will work on any S14. and MegaSquirt will work on anything from a lawnmower to a Ferrari F40. I've still got a lot of work to do on this setup, but once I'm done and it's running well, we'll talk.

UPDATE: I just finished some (2) "L" brackets that bolt to the TB's and to the mani. They make it even more solid than before. There is no way these TB's are gonna flex and/or come out of the couplers.

[1sikgti]

Ok,sweet I like the sound of that.Keep me posted cause after my next paint job in a month I wanna do this,you seem to know how to build it an do the ms well,plus I Am only 2 hours from you.

[RBS14]

you seem to know how to build it an do the ms

hahah I might come off that way but I've got a LOT of stuff I still to learn about it.

[stock4door]

That is a tight setup, hope to see you make it function soon.

To all the downlookers: I have seen more than one KA24DE with 4 throttle setups like this on them before. Running anywhere from 40mm up to 55mm on both ka24e and ka24de. Most of these setups were running carbs also, mikunis or webers, all of them in Datsun 510's. Pretty much all of them make more horsepower than any KA24DE I have ever seen running oem style EFI, even built ones with all the bolts ons. A friend just dynoed a bone stock 92 KA24de with stock exhaust manifold on it. Running 45mm weber carbs with no chokes in them. Made 157 to the rear wheels and pulled all the way up over 6000rpm. Anything over 45-48mm is gonna kill the driveability of that engine hardcore. Perfectly useless for anything you are gonna be likely to do in a 240sx. I would agree that anything smaller than what you are gonna be using would be a bad idea. But 43-48mm is gonna work perfectly fine. Proven time and time again, just gotta look outside of the 240sx world sometimes. And forgot looking at the honda stuff, totally pointless, totally different design.

A very famous Nissan engine builder in Sacramento California called B.C. Gerolamy has gotten 200+ horse to the flywheel before using just 44mm mikuni carbs, pace setter header, and some port work.

And these are all carb setups. Imagine what could be done with some quality time on a dyno with an EFI system.

As for the couplings holding the itb's on... People do that all the time to hold motorcycle carbs or itb's onto car engines. Setups are actually sold to make connections like this work. Works perfectly fine. They don't weigh very much at all, and don't do much other than operate some throttles. I have seen pics of o.g. tomei ITB motors using silicone couplers on production pieces that they actually sold and are still being circulated on yahoo of Japan all the time. If the JDM tomei peeps did it, why can't we do it in the U.S.?

Danny

[tastyratz]

i see no issue with running the silicone couplers if it can be held solidly with an L bracket or something else that keeps them from wiggling when you stomp the throttle and pull on the linkage. the thing about the idle however is you may get away with it in california but you need some form of idle control like that. you need to have control to step up your idle when you turn the a/c on, turn the wheel and load the system with your power steering or just have a heavy electrical load. you need to be able to control the cold start idle enrichment/warm ups and things of the sort, thats my only real issue with some setup like this. if it was just a track only car thats one thing but these are all things to consider on a street car...

[RBS14]

Danny, Very interesting stuff. Thanks a ton.

Tastyratz: I'm gonna have P.S. But no a/c or heavy electrical loads. It doesn't get all that cold here. And when it does, MS will compensate for it, via the air temp sensor.

[atom]

i see no issue with running the silicone couplers if it can be held solidly with an L bracket or something else that keeps them from wiggling when you stomp the throttle and pull on the linkage. the thing about the idle however is you may get away with it in california but you need some form of idle control like that. you need to have control to step up your idle when you turn the a/c on, turn the wheel and load the system with your power steering or just have a heavy electrical load. you need to be able to control the cold start idle enrichment/warm ups and things of the sort, thats my only real issue with some setup like this. if it was just a track only car thats one thing but these are all things to consider on a street car...

You can try using a small piece of sheetmetal to make a blockoff plate for the stock IACV unit and then T it off into the ITB's. Same concept as a remote oil filter system. If you look at RBS14's pics you can see he JB'd the injector holes on the ITB's. Instead of plugging those up you could try using those as ports for the IACV maybe.

Sorry, I suck at explaining shit...........

[RBS14]

I'm not using aicv. simple as that.

[TokyoNights]

http://www.homemadeturbo.com/tech_projects/itb/index.html

[TokyoNights]

Btw rbs14 think the spacing between the busa itbs is the same as the gixxer? I can get a set for cheap and I might try this with the busa ones since they might flow more.

[TokyoNights]

nvm it should be close enough.

[RBS14]

I have no idea on hyabusa TB spacing. Only get ones that are spaced farther apart than gsxr ones. Then you can run a shorter mani.

[TokyoNights]

I got a quote back on the busa ITBs= 1.65 inch, in mm I think they are 40 or 41. That cant be right

[RBS14]

yea, 1.65 is 41.91mm. That sounds smaller than what I've heard. But honestly, set silviadriver's factually unfounded comments aside. Think about it. GSXR tb's are 1mm smaller than the inside ID of stock runners. That is damn near perfect. with bigger TB's you'd need to have a custom mani made to make use of the bigger throttle plate diameter, and have your head ported to match the bigger runners. Unless you are doing that, it doesn't make sense to use bigger tb's. The GSXR tb's have a 50mm inlet that funnels down to a 43mm throttle plate. Unless you are doing all of the above modifications, the ammount of air is either restricted at the throttle plate, or after it when the air has to enter a runner with a smaller diameter than the throttle plate. I personally would rather have all of the air going past the throttle plate getting used, instead of more air than the runner can flow getting by the throttle plate and then creating turbulence when the air has to funnel down to a smaller diameter runner. Hope all that makes sense. And don't forget, GSXR tb's have been used successfully on a couple different ka's and everyone who has done them has reported a HUGE gain in topend, and a noticeable gain in the lower powerband.

That's my 2 cents.

[SimpleS14]

That car is going to be LOUD. Are you planning to change anything else? (i.e. cams)

[RBS14]

Yea, especially with my header, high flow 3" cat, and custom 3" catback with no resonator. It's already loud on the exhaust end, now the intake end will be just as loud. Can't wait.

I've got 91 cams in there for now. I'm going to be running a much more agressive pair of cams in the future, just not sure what. JWT, PDM, or a custom pair of cams.

[SR240DET]

good luck RBS14..... iv got the same setup as you... i know exactly what your talking about... did you get my PM?

[RBS14]

sr240det: I got the first one you sent me. You said you were gonna send another but I never got one...

[240silvia]

:tweak: :tweak: :tweak: :tweak: :tweak: DAMN!!!!!!! I have got to do that!

[RBS14]

They're done now, just not on the car yet. Now I'm building my Megasquirt and getting my EDIS stuff. I'm hoping to get it all on the car during my spring break, end of march. I'll keep you guys updated. I'm gonna try and get a dyno before I put it all on also. :)

[sil80forme]

ok i am confused on one comment made by SILVIADRIVER AND I QUOTE "BTW, using the GSXR injector locations will aid in better fuel atomization and give you more power. An injector position too far away will lead to idle problems as fuel will 'puddle'." but isnt this setup no different then the stock? injector wise. The trottle body is postioned much farther from the injectors, then the ITB'S and our stock injectors. so i dont think that it would really matter, or benifit this way. and one more thing! Aren't the injectors suposed to be sprayin directlly into the block where combustion occurs? if they are sprayin in the new throttle bodies like stated then there will be no fuel in the cumbustion chamber. or am i just talkin out my ass cause i dunno what i am talkn bout. I am just curious because i am actually doin tha same thing only thing. but a lil differ because i am still goin to be able too use the mafs and eventually go turbo, so anymore comments would greatly be appreciated.

[RBS14]

It's basically a compromise. You can leave injectors in stock location and have relatively good gas mileage, and good mix of fuel and air. Or you can have the injectors farther away from the head, where it has a longer time to mix with the air, but worse gas mileage. F1 cars actually have the fuel injectors hanging over the inlet of the velocity stacks. Some cars even have 2 sets. I'm sticking with stock location because it's easy and atomization and mixture is very good at that location. Statements like the one silviadriver made are more theory than anyting, and may not even have any real gains in real world applications. There are obviously some differences/advantages, as F1 cars have injectors farther away from the head, but I'm not building an F1 car, so stock location will work for me. Mainly stuff like that is just to get the edge on the competitor in racing, and the average joe wouldn't know the difference from his own ass.

[atom]

The better you can mix fuel/air the better. Better air/fuel mix = more complete combustion = more power AND better fuel economy, not worse. Moving the injectors away makes idle rougher.

Anyways, none of this matters. On a 9k redline RPM F20C it might make a difference, but not on a 6.5k RPM KA.

[RBS14]

better combustion doesn't necessarily mean better fuel mileage. Yes, more power, but more fuel needs to be injected to make sure enough gets into the combustion chamber. And for example, on my setup, the fuel would have to travel over a foot before it got into the combustion chamber, that's a lot of room for fuel to hit the walls of the runners and not get into the chamber. Also, when an injector is that far away from the combustion chamber, it needs to be injecting gas all the time. That means bad gas mileage. I'm not crying about gas mileage mind you, just pointing it out. And with any luck, I will have a ka that revs to 9k. All in due time.

[sil80forme]

ok well how can u get a motor the redlines at 6.5 to rev to 9 i sure as hell would like to figure that one out

[SilviaDriver]

in simple terms: destroke it

[sil80forme]

yeah thas what my buddy told me, after i asked but why would u wann lose the torque a ka puts out, and make a ka into a honda motor? that seems a lil drastic and pointless to me, AND A WHOLE LOTA MONEY. dont get me wrong i respect everyone elses decisions on what the want to do, i am just curious thas all. plus its 4am and i am not tired and bored outta my mind

[SilviaDriver]

then why even ask how can you rev to 9k

and yes we know its 4am and ur bored out of your mind. the results of this can be seen here

http://www.zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=72143

[sil80forme]

i asked cause i was curious to see if it was even possible to make a car that redlines at 6.5 to rev to 9, and if i was why not ask how that would be accomplished, i try and learn something new everyday. i didnt think it would be possible and now i know it is. thas all i have to say bout that. thanx for the convo

[mistert]

well the ka goes to 6900 stock so its more like 7k, and with springs and retainers and a cam that actually makes power up there 8k is no problem, so with a properly balanced motor (especially if it was destroked, which wouldnt make it a fucking honda motor i dont know wher eyou got that from) it doesnt seem like that unreasonable goal

but thats all good cause you know everything anyways, right?

[RBS14]

yup, destroke.

Mistert: there are no cams available for the ka24de to date that make power to 8k. Even with ITB's, you'd be hard pressed to eliminate a HP and TQ faloff up until 8k.

[sil80forme]

i never said i know it all, i was just stateing what a freind had said to me when i brought up the idea of making a ka rev to 9k, thas all! i was just makeing conversation, am i not allowed to do that here? cause u know, i thought this was a 240sx forum and thas whats its for to talk bought stuff like that, anyway thanx for everyones input.

[RBS14]

I wasn't being harsh. Hopefully you were talking to someone else. I was just pointing out that what you said was untrue. haha Anyways, take a chill pill man.

[sil80forme]

lol i wasnt talkin to u rbs14 i was talkin to mistert, and i am very chill, not upset bout it at all, i like the fact that we can chat and or debate bout this stuff

[RBS14]

oh hahaha I'm a retard. I got you and mistert mixed up. woops.

[NemeGuero]

dude... update us on this shiznit!! please?

[davenavarro1]

thats the sweetest thing i have ever seen. ive bet your car will sound like a datsun 510 in trans am racing.

[RBS14]

Sadly, I realized I got way in over my head, and decided not to finish the project. It would have been sweet as hell tho. :wtc: :wtc:















































SYKE!!!


The TB's are completely finished as I may have said before.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/ITBs005.jpg

Megasquirt is all built, and finished. I've made all of the base maps and set all of the constants as well.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/MegaSquirt/wheels2007.jpg

Fabbed up a spot for it to sit.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/MegaSquirt/megasquirt011.jpg

Made most of the wiring harness. The rest will be completed when I install it. This is the entire harness. Little smaller than stock eh?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/MegaSquirt/harness001.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/MegaSquirt/harness002.jpg

My extra crank pulley is being machined this week and next, as well as the trigger wheel for the distributorless ignition CNC'd. I've got a throttle cable on the way, as well as the rest of the ignition parts. Then it's just taking the stock stuff off, and putting the new stuff on. Then it's off to get tuned! Should (I hope) be up and running within the next 3 weeks. I'll get plenty of pics, vids and dyno sheets. Wish me luck! haha

[raen419]

good luck dude. i've wanted to do this to a KA for years, but unfortunately, dousan made me want to know my suspension first, then i'd mess with the engine...damn him.....lol
think i might take sr20de and do it one day (sometime after college).

[nigel1]

wow! nice work man! dont give up on us. your last post scared the shit outta me and I thought you quit on the project. hell I would have.

***patiently waiting for the vid, and results***

[reefer1114]

mad props!!!

[NemeGuero]

You wouldn't want to make a parts list would ya? That shit looks Really Really good...
-Evan

[infinitexsound]

i think hes doing a write up to contribute to the community, but i could be wroooong... i highly doubt the car would sound like a 510 in a transam race.... but then engine will definetly make a drastic difference in intake sound........RBS14.... sweet man i wanna see vids too and dyno sheets.. atleast ur project is going out well.. my new dremel just took a poop... in the middle of porting my head..weak sauce! how come u didnt coil the wiring with a drill? and make it nice and neat a 1 whole one? all good tho i was lookin into the megasquirt setup also.. how much did u pay for yours? just curious.

boro

[240trainee]

Whats up with this megasquirt buissness? I've seen pictures and people talking about it, but no info on the thing.

[Macadoshus]

http://www.megasquirt.info/

[420sx]

interesting stuff. now go hook everything up and make a video!!!

[RBS14]

I'll make a parts list and write-up when it's all done. I'm not gonna coil the wires because if I do need to make any changes, it'll be easier to mess with stuff if it's not all coiled. There's less than 15 wires, so there's not much of a need to coil them as it is. Mind you tho, the harness is going to be all wrapped in electrical tape with each set of wires coming out of it taped also. I've got some loom also that I might use in certain spots.

Megasuirt is a fuel controller that when used with a certain software code can be used to control ignition also. 12x12 fuel and spark maps. It can also control water injection, nitrous, launch control, overboost protection etc. Mine cost me $187 shipped. There's a couple cables you need to buy and odds and ends, but that's it. check out the link posted above for more info.

[SHIFT_control]

:bowdown: :hsdance: if that will work for an S13 i will be doing it in the near future.

[infinitexsound]

sweet..........

[luisgonz]

I never knew s13 was a motor............. :tweak:

[RBS14]

nope, won't work for S13's. ITB's only work on S14 ka's. sorry.

[SimpleS14]

Very nice job Scott...didn't know your such a DIY guru.

nope, won't work for S13's. ITB's only work on S14 ka's. sorry.


why is this?

[crioten]

omg you cant be serious...

hes just fuckin with ya lol...

anyway, how hard would you think it would be to add on a plenum to it? id like to consider this for a boosted application sometime

[RBS14]

George, I was just making fun of "SHIFT_control". ITB's will work on any engine, it's just a matter of how much work you're willing to do. Haha, yeah, I like the DIY stuff. HID's, ITB's, Megasuqirt, custom cage. I'm a dork like that.

Crioten: it would definately be more work. I'm not sure what the best way to do it would be, but it'd have to be pretty solid for boost. It would sure as hell make for a fun kat tho!

[SimpleS14]

Damn....I wasn't using my head on the S13 comment. :/

ITB on a turbo application? does such a thing exist?

[the240sxer95]

yes.. GTR uses itbs and so does the GTiR, just to name 2 nissans that do.

[crioten]

im thinking it would be easy to pick up a ka-t intake manifold and replace the runners with the ITB's...

wouldnt be the most cost effective (i dont know, it could be tho lol)

what kind of gains would you get from switching to ITB's on a ka-t i wonder?

[RBS14]

You would have NO top end falloff. That is with cams. Boost helps lessen the falloff when good cams are done, so with ITB's you'd most likely make peak hp within a few hundred rpms of redline.

[R33GTS-T]

<---eagerly awaiting completion

looks very good...any idea as to when you'll be able to get a video of this as well as some before and after dyno numbers???

Late,
Daniel

[kenshinS14sks]

its been over 4.5 months~ update?? completion?? was looking for your HID retrofit post and found this

[RBS14]

It's all going in (finally!) starting Memorial day weekend. I'm going to be doing most of the tuning also, so hopefully I don't blow up my motor. haha

Couple pics of new stuff...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/stacks001.jpg
different velocity stack lengths

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/ITBs005.jpg
With fuel rail on and injector wiring harness

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/megasquirt023.jpg
bracket to stiffen it up. 3/16" by 3/4". Two of them. Damn that shit's hard to bend. haha

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/megasquirt021.jpg
Looking in...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/megasquirt017.jpg
SOHC throttle cable, and new bracket. Bot DOHC and SOHC throttle cable ends fit into GSXR throttle wheel perfectly. I'm Using SOHC cause it's shorter.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/megasquirt018.jpg
another angle. Cable doesn't actually touch injector cap. Just very close.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/megasquirt019.jpg
werd

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/megasquirt015.jpg
EDIS ignition stuff. Trigger wheel sensor top, EDIS module bottom left, and EDIS coil bottom right. I'll get pics of my trigger wheel up asap. Should be finished in the next couple days.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/megasquirt014.jpg
modified plug wires. Had to bend the boot/connector on the plug end, and cut a bit of silicone off the boots to get them to fit down valve cover plug holes. 8.5mm too so nice and big.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/MegaSquirt/mtscreenshot.jpg\
Screenshot of the tuning/monitoring software

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/MegaSquirt/stocktimingmap.jpg
thanks to Gabe at hybridka.com, I was able to replicate the stock de timing map in my spark table. So now I've got a good starting point instead of my guestimates.

[Var]

I must say Watson, this is worthy of a gangster level up!

[raen419]

this should shortened into a sticky/faq when it's all said and done.
can't wait for vid/audio.
i've yet to hear a KA on itb's so this should sound pretty sweet.

[RBS14]

yeah, I'll make a short how-to and the specifics to look out for with all of the pics in one place too. Dyno sheets and vie/audio clips too.

I'll make a new thread with all this stuff in it in a couple weeks when it's all put together.

:)

[240trainee]

Yea, looks awsome. I admire you enigne management setup, I hope to use the mage squirt system when I build up my next motor, KA-T or CA, still not sure. but excellent work.

[Jonnie Fraz]

Way cool...Looks sweet and I am sure that once you get it all tuned up you will clean up the install.
As for you guys worring about 43mm being enough...Import Tuner June issue has a dude running 43mm Toda set up on a B18C claiming low 12sec. passes and streetable. Not bad for a Honda. Also if ya do the math 60mm stock or 4x43mm.

[drift freaq]

liking this a lot keep up the good work scott, and oh ya, pm me for a little info on destroking your KA, hahahhahhahha.

[m0rex]

Megasquirt! I want to try it i dont think i could handle it though :(. I heard its really good.

[speeddreamz]

Your project is gangsta... Glad to see people still come up with new stuff for the KA

[nissantuner22]

Well thought out, and well executed.

[Drunk Bastard]

Absolutely Gangsta

[RBS14]

Trigger wheel is finished. Beautiful. All shiny and fresh off the CNC machine. Saw video of it being cut too, sooooooooooooo cool! Damn those machines are pimp!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/MegaSquirt/megasquirt024.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/MegaSquirt/megasquirt025.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/MegaSquirt/megasquirt026.jpg

I've now got EVERYTHING needed to get my car running. Bwahahahaha I'm SOOO stoked. Once I get home, it's time to get this shit going finally. One more week. WOOT!

[infinitexsound]

ok so whats the trigger wheel for im just curious ... ive been waiting patiently for awhile to see whats the gain in this setup along with everyone else on zilvia.. good to see that you've got a grin..and happy that its complete.. good job man...

[drftwerks]

for the MS system, so the EDIS can know when to spark the plugs

[RBS14]

yeah, there's a sensor that you point at the trigger wheel, and it is "triggered" everytime the missing tooth goes by. that's kind of a simplified version, but you get the idea. that goes into the EDIS (ignition) module which then triggers the coil, and finally the plugs. No distributor.

[wootwoot]

I love this so damn much.

p.s.
Why am I obsessed with ITB's???? Hurry up and finish this before friday when I leave

[raen419]

you're obsessed w/ itb's b/c....
they're an alternative to forced induction
they look pimp
they sound awesome
they're responsive as hell
few bother w/ them b/c they can get a turbo system/engine for less knowledge.

i'm beyond impressed w/ rbs14's work on this project.
i think i'm as stoked to see this finished and hear it as he is!

[240KAT]

everything looks good except for:
the couplings for the throttle bodies: come on man, they look hokey. Lol.
And the wiring for the injectors, no need for solder??

[wootwoot]

OH YEAH!! I forgot this set up is suppose to look good not be good!

[raen419]

everything looks good except for:
the couplings for the throttle bodies: come on man, they look hokey. Lol.
And the wiring for the injectors, no need for solder??
did you read the whole thread?
it works fine. that's the way they're setup on gsx-r's.
no one cares about how it looks so long as it works fine.
plus if anything ever goes wrong with one of them, he can change it out rather easily.

[wootwoot]

I will also add that he can change the length of his velocity stacks to see what happens on the dyno. Just saying it AGAIN because people obviously dont read the thread at all; just look at pictures then comment

[raen419]

yup.
and people wonder why flame wars are so common...lol

[RBS14]

yeah, I'm over responding to the "the couplers look janky" comments. Go back on the last page and look at the brackets I made.

Also, about the injector wiring harness, it IS soldered. I just havn't wired up the ground wires (signals) because I don't know how long they each need to be. Once I put the wiring harness in the car, I'll cut them to length, and solder them together. Also, it should be noted that a good crimped connection has no more resistance than a soldered connection. Often, a soldered connection has more resistance...

[240KAT]

that was one of the worst sets of responses ive ever read. Whats wrong with having something work and look good? It doesnt really cost any more money. Trim the couplings so theyre on the runners straight, straighten the clamps..these things dont cost money. I'm sure it works great and, yes, i read all 6 other pages. I dont mind the couplings..its how they are on there that bothers me.

[SimpleS14]

I dont mind the couplings..its how they are on there that bothers me.

Then be glad its not on your car. :D

[95zilvia]

that's what i've been thinking the WHOLE time.. the couplings look like shit.
at least make all the clamps in the same position, or better yet, hide the adjusting knobs of the clamps, and at least make them straight...

[RBS14]

the thing is that the spacing is a *tiny bit off, and the runners aren't perfectly straight in relation to the TB's. So I could straighten out the clamps, and not get as good of a seal or align them as they are and get the best functionality out of them. I chose the fuction option. Don't know if you can see what I'm talking about from the pics.

[sdtouge]

so when are you gonna take it to the dyno?

[RBS14]

^^^^^^

Hopefully when I get the A/F ratios all tuned and need some fine tuning of the ignition map done. Shooting for around a week after I get it started up the first time. so maybe 2-3 weeks from now.

[95zilvia]

yay +5 hp!

[RBS14]

god, wouldn't that suck. hahaha

[ALTRNTV]

More pics!!!

[Alan_no.1]

Good Nice Itb I Love You

[drew935]

good job RBS...after your done, maybe a 240 meet should be in order since summer is coming around the corner. :2f2f: :wavey:
a chance for us to see your custom work in person... :coold:

[RBS14]

absolutely. I'm gonna be back up in Santa Cruz for the summer in a week here, so you're in luck!

Edit: I realigned the clamps and straightened them out as much as I could without sacrificing the seal of the couplers.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/ITBs.jpg

[docrice]

Very sweet setup, definitely want to see the results. BTW, how do you like the Megasquirt setup? i've been looking into it and it seems really cool, just a little time consuming to understand and fine tune. Are you using stock ignition for this motor or ?

[Gladman]

Dont listen to all teh fools, get it running how youd like, when everything is running good, take the time to clean up the setup a bit. A nice looking ITB setup is no good unless it works. Once its running good you should go over the wiring, maybe put up a hundred bucks or whatever it takes to have the ITB's tig welded to the intake manifold, or even have a custom sheetmetal runner system built. ;)

[m4nfred]

do you run a map sensor or something, or does the megasquirt not need anything???

[gundamzeta]

you're late..

http://nissaninfiniticlub.net/photopost/data/500/9281fda677772.jpg

http://nissaninfiniticlub.net/photopost/data/500/9281ka24ecarbedsmall.jpg

[90RS13]

you showed 2 pics of KA24E's. He has a KA24DE, but even if someone had done the same thing before, it's still pretty cool. Not everyone is caught up with trying to be "original". :duh:

[raen419]

who cares if it's original?
he's doing what he wants, how he wants, and it'll work....

maybe gundamzeta should realize that not everything is a competition.

[Jeff240sx]

you're late..

http://nissaninfiniticlub.net/photopost/data/500/9281fda677772.jpg

http://nissaninfiniticlub.net/photopost/data/500/9281ka24ecarbedsmall.jpg

And YOU'RE fucking late. Unoriginal bastard. I was on zilvia before you. I had a 240sx before you ever picked up that issue of SCC and saw one. I was turbocharged KA-T before you bought your 240sx. You are late! Go fuck yourself, jackoff. Never, EVER, attempt to diminish the accomplishments of someone who built his own shit, and is willing to show his build, make a writeup, and help others. Meanwhile, you sit behind a keyboard and cry because mommy didn't hug you enough, lashing out to everyone with nicer things than you. Stop. If you post another negative comment towards someone on zilvia, I'm going to ban you. And, I will be checking your posts.
-Jeff

[NemeGuero]

stick it to him! damn, haha... he got served

[EchoOfSilence]

you're late..

http://nissaninfiniticlub.net/photopost/data/500/9281fda677772.jpg

http://nissaninfiniticlub.net/photopost/data/500/9281ka24ecarbedsmall.jpg
:hahano:
The 510 community has been putting ITB's on the SOHC for YEARS.

[gundamzeta]

And YOU'RE fucking late. Unoriginal bastard. I was on zilvia before you. I had a 240sx before you ever picked up that issue of SCC and saw one. I was turbocharged KA-T before you bought your 240sx. You are late! Go fuck yourself, jackoff. Never, EVER, attempt to diminish the accomplishments of someone who built his own shit, and is willing to show his build, make a writeup, and help others. Meanwhile, you sit behind a keyboard and cry because mommy didn't hug you enough, lashing out to everyone with nicer things than you. Stop. If you post another negative comment towards someone on zilvia, I'm going to ban you. And, I will be checking your posts.
-Jeff


well, I'm from freshalloy forums, and I registered there in 2000, and I owned a 240sx with ca18det in late 2001.

Aren't you jeff from freshalloy anyways?

[Jeff240sx]

well, I'm from freshalloy forums, and I registered there in 2000, and I owned a 240sx with ca18det in late 2001.

Aren't you jeff from freshalloy anyways?

This doesn't matter, but yes. This isn't Freshalloy, and alot of people come here because of that. Elitist attitutes can be checked at the door.
And your post, other than being negative and pompous, was elitist. It was unnecessary, and inappropriate.
What was the reasoning for posting that? He didn't claim to be the pioneer in any one of these 7 pages. But it was a "Hey, look at my DIY project using GIXXER ITBs." And you post shat on it.
-Jeff

[smellslikecurry]

well, I'm from freshalloy forums, and I registered there in 2000, and I owned a 240sx with ca18det in late 2001.

Aren't you jeff from freshalloy anyways?



W000t c00kiE foUr [email protected][email protected]#[email protected]#

[RBS14]

Docrice: I'm using EDIS ignition. It's a distributorless setup from early Ford Escorts that is adaptable to pretty much any engine (even rotaries), and is supported by the MegaSquirt Extra code.

gladman: welding the TB's to the mani is not an option. They are different types of aluminum alloys, and would be hard to weld. In addition, the TB's are likely to warp from the heat of the welding, and wouldn't open and close properly, making them basically junk. With these TB's, there is no better way than clamping with silicone couplings. A better mani would clean it up a bit, but that's all. Plus, I'm broke. hahahaha

m4nfred: Yes, MegaSquirt uses a MAP sensor.

gundamzeta: Read Jeff's posts again.

Jeff: Right on! It shows that you REALLY are dedicated to Zilvia being a great community, since I know you aren't always fond of me. Not that you are backing me up, but that no matter who a negative comment is directed towards, you won't tolerate it. Rock on man! much respect.

And just and endnote, I could care less how original this is. I care about the performance. The truth is that it's not original at all. Slapping ITB's on an engine to give it some more n/a power is old news. And furthermore, I'm more or less copying DevousKA's setup, but for my DE. I'm not original.

On a happier note, I start in on it tomorrow evening! YAY!!!

[EchoOfSilence]

Docrice: I'm using EDIS ignition. It's a distributorless setup from early Ford Escorts that is adaptable to pretty much any engine (even rotaries), and is supported by the MegaSquirt Extra code.

gladman: welding the TB's to the mani is not an option. They are different types of aluminum alloys, and would be hard to weld. In addition, the TB's are likely to warp from the heat of the welding, and wouldn't open and close properly, making them basically junk. With these TB's, there is no better way than clamping with silicone couplings. A better mani would clean it up a bit, but that's all. Plus, I'm broke. hahahaha

m4nfred: Yes, MegaSquirt uses a MAP sensor.

gundamzeta: Read Jeff's posts again.

Jeff: Right on! It shows that you REALLY are dedicated to Zilvia being a great community, since I know you aren't always fond of me. Not that you are backing me up, but that no matter who a negative comment is directed towards, you won't tolerate it. Rock on man! much respect.

And just and endnote, I could care less how original this is. I care about the performance. The truth is that it's not original at all. Slapping ITB's on an engine to give it some more n/a power is old news. And furthermore, I'm more or less copying DevousKA's setup, but for my DE. I'm not original.

On a happier note, I start in on it tomorrow evening! YAY!!!
Damn, dude... good shit!! Take video of it, or pics or SOMETHING. Let us know how it goes!!

[Jeff240sx]

Jeff: Right on! It shows that you REALLY are dedicated to Zilvia being a great community, since I know you aren't always fond of me. Not that you are backing me up, but that no matter who a negative comment is directed towards, you won't tolerate it. Rock on man! much respect.

On a happier note, I start in on it tomorrow evening! YAY!!!

I'm not against you.. we just have differing opinions, which is good. But ya, that was a totally uncalled for post towards you.

Don't forget the vid camera and let us know how it goes tomorrow.
BTW: I have some bandwidth I can give you for vid hosting if you make a vid.
-Jeff

[AeBaSupLook]

absolutely. I'm gonna be back up in Santa Cruz for the summer in a week here, so you're in luck!

Edit: I realigned the clamps and straightened them out as much as I could without sacrificing the seal of the couplers.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/ITBs.jpg


I notice that the ITBs were a bit closer together then the runners. Since it looks like a 2 peice set up, can't you add some washers in the middle to space them out a bit so they could line up a bit better? Just curious, I'm going the same route with my corolla as well. KA owners are lucky they could use their stock manifold with a little modification, corolla 4ag users need to make a adapter instead.

great set up!

-Kevin

[docrice]

Man, I was excited....i got home from work and saw that there was a reply to this post, i was hoping it was some results or more pics or some news about the project, and lo and behold its just some petty sh!t...thanks jeff, for keeping zilvia a happy home for us!


RBS14, keep up the good work!

EDIT: Kevin, i think the throttle bodies are split in the middle just for disassembly purposes. I dont think you can get them any farther apart without a longer shaft for controlling the throttles (sorry the actual name for it escapes me right now)...

[AeBaSupLook]

Man, I was excited....i got home from work and saw that there was a reply to this post, i was hoping it was some results or more pics or some news about the project, and lo and behold its just some petty sh!t...thanks jeff, for keeping zilvia a happy home for us!


RBS14, keep up the good work!

EDIT: Kevin, i think the throttle bodies are split in the middle just for disassembly purposes. I dont think you can get them any farther apart without a longer shaft for controlling the throttles (sorry the actual name for it escapes me right now)...

docrice.. makes sense, I was thinking about that also. Maybe he could set up a custom rod for the linkage. The current set up is fine, but if it requires little to no work, then maybe rbs14 should look into that just to get the tb to line up straighter to the runner.

-Kevin

[docrice]

it would probably be easier/better to have someone fab up a custom manifold for this project and do a small production run...*looks around for someone with resources and tools*...and if someone does, throw me some props for the idea by hooking me up with one haha...

but considering the awesome budget this project is being done on, i say good enough!

[eurosil80]

must hear ka roar

[infinitexsound]

blah the 2nd picture was on a 510 chassis.... those old timers cracks me up....

[RBS14]

well I've finally started.

Got the stock intake mani off and test fitted the new one. Most of it is going back together tomorrow. Should* finish up thursday or friday, and get tuning over the weekend. So barring no big setbacks, I'll have some real updates to show in the next few days.

Oh and I weighed my car before, and I'll weigh it after. it was 1560lbs today with half a tank of gas and my rollbar. so I'm pleased. Should be able to get that down some more.

[jOeHaCk98]

u mean 2560lbs?

[RBS14]

hahaha yeah I mean 2560. I was really tired when I wrote that last night.

[EchoOfSilence]

it would probably be easier/better to have someone fab up a custom manifold for this project and do a small production run...*looks around for someone with resources and tools*...and if someone does, throw me some props for the idea by hooking me up with one haha...

but considering the awesome budget this project is being done on, i say good enough!
http://www.datsun510.com/photopost/data/500/170dsc00220.jpg
TWM ITB's (http://www.twminduction.com/ThrottleBody/ThrottleBody-FR.html)

[sticky240]

http://www.datsun510.com/photopost/data/500/170dsc00220.jpg
TWM ITB's (http://www.twminduction.com/ThrottleBody/ThrottleBody-FR.html)

damn, thats pretty :wackit:

[raen419]

link doesn't work for me.

[RBS14]

well it's coming along. got the TB's bolted on, the stock wiring harness removed and the new one mostly in.

Couple pics:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/itbs002.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/itbs005.jpg

[Buffalo Daughter]

that is fucking sick RBS14. When are you gonna give us a sound file?

[infinitexsound]

ur motor is really dirty dude... simple green time..... man it does look alot nicer without the extra crap

[sLiDewAys]

hey lookin good scooter, when are we gonna get a peep at tht vid file:) ive got some frends wetting ehir pants to hear what it sounds like...


brandon

[amolao]

Man that is sweet, I just made a mess on my keyboard... :rofl:

but pleazze....

"note to self":
Buy engine degreaser on the way home..... :bigok:

[Jeff240sx]

Pictures...

Again.. I don't know why people think posting pics of KA24E motors with ITBs is relevant and new. The once-cams have done everything the twice cams haven't. 300hp race motors. ITBs. We know. Quit posting them. It's not even on topic.
-Jeff

[RBS14]

I don't really want to degrease it because it's just going to get all greasy again in no time. I'm building a new high comp etc etc engine in a while, so I'm thinking I may just say screw it with this engine and wait till the new one. Then I can degrease my entire engine bay when I swap engines.

If I do degrease this engine, it won't be until after I get it all up and running. That's priority #1 right now.

[Gjohnson7]

Looking good. So when are you going to start mass producing. :hsdance:

[BlackS14]

I agree with others in saying that when indeed you fire that bad boy up, you have to take a vid of what it sounds like....make sure to get some good throttle stabs in there...haha...can't wait...

-Bill

[kandyflip445]

That looks so cool. They look like cannons. HAHA.

[luisgonz]

Hey,HAHAHAHAHA Fire Balls!!!!!!!!! :rl: :rl::rl: hahahahhaahahaha funny shit

[raen419]

looks sweet.
can't wait for sound files and vids....if you do them.
hi comp KA....you still planning on 9k rpm's? if so...

ROCK ON

[docrice]

its so beautiful...

Looks like those velocity stacks will about touch the hood with filters on them...

[TokyoNights]

filters? who needs filters

[docrice]

filters? who needs filters

people who give a damn about their engine and/or live in places that have a lot of dust and pollen and other stuff to get sucked in...hardcore is cool until you suck in something unwelcome and your engine dies.

[EchoOfSilence]

Again.. I don't know why people think posting pics of KA24E motors with ITBs is relevant and new. The once-cams have done everything the twice cams haven't. 300hp race motors. ITBs. We know. Quit posting them. It's not even on topic.
-Jeff
I was giving an example for a higher-end job on ITB's for someone, don't get butt-hurt. I wasn't trying to downplay the de's ITB job.

[infinitexsound]

hmm been doing that alot lately

[RBS14]

I'll definately get a vid clip of it for you guys. If I can, I'll get a flyby clip too at like the top of 3rd. that would rock. haha

I will take more pics tomorrow. I've got 90ish % of the wiring done now. Still have plenty of stuff to do, but it's coming along nicely.

As for filters, I'm not planning on running any right now, just want to get it running. However, once I have some more time, I'll rig something up.

cheers

[EchoOfSilence]

I'll definately get a vid clip of it for you guys. If I can, I'll get a flyby clip too at like the top of 3rd. that would rock. haha

I will take more pics tomorrow. I've got 90ish % of the wiring done now. Still have plenty of stuff to do, but it's coming along nicely.

As for filters, I'm not planning on running any right now, just want to get it running. However, once I have some more time, I'll rig something up.

cheers
:bigok:
good stuff, look forward to seeing more on this.
good luck

[kenshinS14sks]

well it's coming along. got the TB's bolted on, the stock wiring harness removed and the new one mostly in.

Couple pics:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/itbs002.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/itbs005.jpg


so um....where are the dyno graphs??? io wanna see....look so pretty

[s14slide]

I'm not too sure if I'm serious about this comment, but I think that would look hot with an intake scoop right over the TB's. Like the big round ones on funny cars, but not so big. But then again, it would probably look better when backed up by a few hundred ponies. This just into my head while typing, with the scoop installed, you could box off the TB's so all they get is fresh, cool outside air. I can't believe I'm actually posting this out loud. Oh well, one of my crazier thoughts.



Oh, BTW (OT). After one more look at the pic above, I've gotta ask why you have duct tape on your BMC?

[RBS14]

S14slide: the Duct tape was put on by the tech guys at one of the track events I went to long ago and I never took it off.

Guys and Gals, Photobucket is being stupid, so I made my account there publically accessible. Direct linking won't be back up until July. Here's the link.

http://photobucket.com/albums/v607/ScooterS14/ITBs/

[90RS13]

Just make sure when you're tuning filter-less you do a thorough FOD check. It doesn't take much to screw-ball an engine. But judging by all the work you've put into this I'm sure you're being thorough, and careful.

[NemeGuero]

I was giving an example for a higher-end job on ITB's for someone, don't get butt-hurt. I wasn't trying to downplay the de's ITB job.


you can get slapped back talking the mods, SON!!

[RBS14]

alright, some more pics for you guys.

Little update first. All of the wiring is done now and all I have to do is shrink fit the trigger wheel for the ignition onto the crank pulley, then try starting her up. Hopefully I'll try to get her running by the end of tomorrow, but most likely sunday. Can't wait!

Ok, pics.

From above...
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y263/scooters142/ITBs001.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y263/scooters142/ITBs002.jpg

Made the block off plate for the distributor, which also doubles as a mounting plate for the new coil. (note, I'm hoping to get a nice aluminum one machined once I go back to San Diego at the end of the summer, but this will do for now.)
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y263/scooters142/ITBs003.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y263/scooters142/ITBs004.jpg

Bet you aren't used to seeing an oil filter and alternator sticking out like that are you?... haha starter is out in the open now too. I've got so much room now I could make an oven to bolt onto my block so lunch will be piping hot half way through a track day. Make good use of that heat... haha
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y263/scooters142/ITBs005.jpg

This is where the new harness is coming throug the firewall, as opposed to the larger hole to the right where the stock one went through.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y263/scooters142/ITBs006.jpg

The mess that my interior is right now...
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y263/scooters142/ITBs007.jpg

that's it for now.

Cheers