GTX2867r on 180sx

[Sevz180]

Hey guys, I'm completely new to the car scene and looking at getting a new turbo for my 180sx.

I was looking at the GT2871r from Enjuku Racing but have read that the tech is old so I've been looking at the GTX2867r.

Would this turbo bolt on to a 180sx Red Top SR20DET?

If no, what parts would I need to buy and where can I get them from? I've been looking for a complete upgrade kit but haven't managed to find one.

Thanks in advance

[Kingtal0n]

new to the scene or new to cars and mechanics?

If I had a redtop stock bottom end I would use a top mount t3 / t04E turbo, say 50trim

it will support 380rwhp and very affordable

Although Garret is king of turbo and GT(x) is a great turbo etc... They are very expensive and you get almost no benefit using one over a typical top mount journal deal on a stock engine like a redtop.

[jr_ss]

Don’t listen to this guy ^. While he has valid points on somethings, other times he’s out of his mind.

The GTX2863R would be better suited to your needs. If you don’t have a solid bottomend(built) keep it under 400whp. T2 footprint turbos will bolt up, but you will need an intake and other associated items for it. Be prepared for possible boost creep, which may require you to add an external gate on the factory manifold, which is tried and proven setup.

[Sevz180]

new to the scene or new to cars and mechanics?

If I had a redtop stock bottom end I would use a top mount t3 / t04E turbo, say 50trim

it will support 380rwhp and very affordable

Although Garret is king of turbo and GT(x) is a great turbo etc... They are very expensive and you get almost no benefit using one over a typical top mount journal deal on a stock engine like a redtop.

Completely new to modifying cars / mechanics.

Don?t listen to this guy ^. While he has valid points on somethings, other times he?s out of his mind.



The GTX2863R would be better suited to your needs. If you don?t have a solid bottomend(built) keep it under 400whp. T2 footprint turbos will bolt up, but you will need an intake and other associated items for it. Be prepared for possible boost creep, which may require you to add an external gate on the factory manifold, which is tried and proven setup.

Yeah I've got a stock engine. No work has been done on it. What parts would I need for it if I did go GTX2863R?

I'm looking to upgrade my intake manifold, get bigger injectors, z32 maf, etc when I get this turbo. just unsure on which turbo to get now or what parts I need for it to all work together.

[blksylv]

Whats your power goal and what kind of response are you looking for?

[Sevz180]

Whats your power goal and what kind of response are you looking for?

Probably around 300-350hp. Nothing too insane considering I have stock internals at the moment. But eventually I'll upgrade the bottom end.
I want quite a responsive turbo with not too much lag

Would you guys recommend the gt2871r over the gtx2867r on stock internals?

[20 til 3]

The gtx housing is very big for bottom mount on the SR, I had to modify and make a bracket for the internal gate on my old Garrett gt2871 exhaust housing . I would have to suggest a top mount setup for this turbo.

But they do make a gt25 something now that is designed for the SR bottom mount basically.

[jr_ss]

Yeah I've got a stock engine. No work has been done on it. What parts would I need for it if I did go GTX2863R?

I'm looking to upgrade my intake manifold, get bigger injectors, z32 maf, etc when I get this turbo. just unsure on which turbo to get now or what parts I need for it to all work together.

I?d suggest you spend some time familiarizing yourself with all the SR information available on this site.

The 2863R is smaller than the 67, which will help keep spool down, but still allow for good midrange and top end power. Leave the intake manifold alone. Plan on a FMIC, full exhaust, minimum 750cc injectors and a tuned ECU. You?ll also need intake and a hot pipe for the new turbo.

[xpinoyxmk]

Have a gtx2867 on my 180sx. Bolted up fine but I didn't try with the internal gate. I used a step-up coupler from the compressor housing to a 3 inch 45 degree pipe that was used for intake. Response was far better than my old HKS GT-RS.

My mods below for reference put down 310whp last year since I upgraded to a standalone. Been running at this power level for about 6 years now.

1992 180sx
unopened sr20det
gtx2867r @ 18lbs(external gate on stock mani)
hks 740cc
Haltech Elite 1500 (only reason is my Enthalpy ecu randomly burned out but lasted for 4 years of abuse)

Only difference with the Enthalpy ecu was the z32 mafs but believe I was at 20ish lbs since his tunes run a little rich.

[tb13]

Stock bottom end I assume? You can make 350-400whp pretty reliably with a good tune and supporting mods.

I'd do a GTX2867 or GTX2863 with a .86 housing, this is going to help keep low end in check, if you throw too much boost at a stock bottom down low you are bound to send a rod out the side. These turbos move a lot more air and mover it really efficiently, this is great for a built engine, but can quickly kill a stock bottom end.

Check out what ATP offers, they've got a bunch of options for the SR that use the standard style compressor housing, simplifying the install. They've also got oil feed and coolant lines to match.

ATP SR20DET Turbo Upgrades (https://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=tp&Category_Code=VSR2)

Quick list of what you'll need to bolt it on and rip:

-Turbo
-New gaskets all around
-Oil feed line
-Coolant lines
-T28 oil drain fitting
-T28 oil drain hose
-T28 compressor inlet/outlet adapters
-Larger injectors (740-1000CC)
-Larger MAF (Z32 is the go-to)
-Larger intake tube suited to the MAF
-Filter adapter for MAF
-Tune-able ECU (Up to personal preference on which one)

[Sevz180]

Stock bottom end I assume? You can make 350-400whp pretty reliably with a good tune and supporting mods.

I'd do a GTX2867 or GTX2863 with a .86 housing, this is going to help keep low end in check, if you throw too much boost at a stock bottom down low you are bound to send a rod out the side. These turbos move a lot more air and mover it really efficiently, this is great for a built engine, but can quickly kill a stock bottom end.

Check out what ATP offers, they've got a bunch of options for the SR that use the standard style compressor housing, simplifying the install. They've also got oil feed and coolant lines to match.

ATP SR20DET Turbo Upgrades (https://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=tp&Category_Code=VSR2)

Quick list of what you'll need to bolt it on and rip:

-Turbo
-New gaskets all around
-Oil feed line
-Coolant lines
-T28 oil drain fitting
-T28 oil drain hose
-T28 compressor inlet/outlet adapters
-Larger injectors (740-1000CC)
-Larger MAF (Z32 is the go-to)
-Larger intake tube suited to the MAF
-Filter adapter for MAF
-Tune-able ECU (Up to personal preference on which one)

Hi thanks for this! Current turbo is a T25g so I assume I'd just find T25 inlet/outlet adapter, etc instead of the T28 ones?

[Sevz180]

Stock bottom end I assume? You can make 350-400whp pretty reliably with a good tune and supporting mods.

I'd do a GTX2867 or GTX2863 with a .86 housing, this is going to help keep low end in check, if you throw too much boost at a stock bottom down low you are bound to send a rod out the side. These turbos move a lot more air and mover it really efficiently, this is great for a built engine, but can quickly kill a stock bottom end.

Check out what ATP offers, they've got a bunch of options for the SR that use the standard style compressor housing, simplifying the install. They've also got oil feed and coolant lines to match.

ATP SR20DET Turbo Upgrades (https://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=tp&Category_Code=VSR2)

Quick list of what you'll need to bolt it on and rip:

-Turbo
-New gaskets all around
-Oil feed line
-Coolant lines
-T28 oil drain fitting
-T28 oil drain hose
-T28 compressor inlet/outlet adapters
-Larger injectors (740-1000CC)
-Larger MAF (Z32 is the go-to)
-Larger intake tube suited to the MAF
-Filter adapter for MAF
-Tune-able ECU (Up to personal preference on which one)

Thanks for this! I assume I just swap out the T28 parts for T25 since current motor has a T25g turbo?

[KiDyNomiTe]

GTX2863 is fantastic, I have one. Used to run it on internal gate, making around 330-360, but did have boost creep as previously mentioned. Switched to external gate eventually, been using that since making 380ish.

As far as bottom mount vs top mount. If you are sticking to under 400 bottom mount is way simpler, especially if you already have FMIC, piping, turbo outlet, and downpipe. All that bolts up. Top mount requires replacing all that, and typically top mount piping has to be custom made. Sounds like yours is RHD, so you at least don't have to deal with a lot of the shielding involved for LHD.

[nick_d_240sx]

You can get the GTX2863 and 2867 as a bolt on turbo and no modifications are needed except an oil feed restrictor (Factory banjo bolt is M12x1.25). All of the stock turbo stuff should work as long as you get the correct turbine/compressor housings. You can port the wastegate opening to avoid creep. Obviously you'll want some new gaskets and crush washers.

[pacotaco345]

I run the new gen 2 GTX2860, it made 360 wheel bottom mount, internal gate, no weird modifications needed to make it fit. Spools like stock and I only needed 16 pounds (no boost creep) to make that number. The turbo still has plenty left to make low 400s if I turn it up.

[Kingtal0n]

u guys are crazy to put such an expensive turbo on a stock redtop with probably high mileage

ur even more crazy for trying to keep a t25 flange on it

If i had a redtop right now I would rock a $400 turbo with a rebuildable center section because the engines life is timed and when it goes it could eat the turbo along with it

Absolutely no reason to use such an expensive unit

I just tuned a built sr with one of those new garret turbos. the compressor flows like 55lb/min we were able to squeeze 440rwhp from the injectors but it took 28psi of boost

So $5000 engine + $2000 turbo and you get around 50 more horsepower, and that was a top mount unit too. NOT WORTH IT

Totally pointless on a stock engine because you won't use 28 psi of boost. Just use a cheap turbo good for pump fuel and 18~psi of boost IMO

I stand behind my advice. use a cheap oem engine with a cheap turbo. Keep spare of both. 18psi 380rwhp. Not like you are going to get much more than that from any other turbo on a stock engine.. whats the point of spending extra...

[Kingtal0n]

new turbo tech GTX garret top mount v-band, 28psi built engine, 93 + 50/50 meth injection
https://i.postimg.cc/hGYmK0vT/IMG-3096.jpg

old turbo tech T3 .48 a/r garret from 12 years ago, 19psi built engine 93 octane only
https://i.postimg.cc/FK38RY3f/comparison50-to-60.jpg

I'd have to check but I would say theres around 400 to 500rpm difference in spool and that they would make identical power on pump fuel because you are limited by boost pressure on gasoline and not compressor flow rate.

Not worth the xtra $7000~ for the built engine and expensive turbo just for a little more spool. And then it needs better fuel, we did 440rwhp with Methanol 50/50 injection. So Include that whole system or E85 into the mix if you want over 20psi of boost with these engines safely. Just for an extra 50 to 80 horsepower.. yeah nty. Well technically the skys the limit, I'm just saying for T-25 sized exhaust hole, you aren't going much over 20psi of boost and 450rwhp... it would be silly.
engine is much happier, cooler, and better off with a top mount T3 sized hole, larger turbine, nice big compressor on a cheap journal bearing turbo is ideal. And when the motor blows the turbo can be replaced cheaply.

[Sevz180]

u guys are crazy to put such an expensive turbo on a stock redtop with probably high mileage

ur even more crazy for trying to keep a t25 flange on it

If i had a redtop right now I would rock a $400 turbo with a rebuildable center section because the engines life is timed and when it goes it could eat the turbo along with it

Absolutely no reason to use such an expensive unit

I just tuned a built sr with one of those new garret turbos. the compressor flows like 55lb/min we were able to squeeze 440rwhp from the injectors but it took 28psi of boost

So $5000 engine + $2000 turbo and you get around 50 more horsepower, and that was a top mount unit too. NOT WORTH IT

Totally pointless on a stock engine because you won't use 28 psi of boost. Just use a cheap turbo good for pump fuel and 18~psi of boost IMO

I stand behind my advice. use a cheap oem engine with a cheap turbo. Keep spare of both. 18psi 380rwhp. Not like you are going to get much more than that from any other turbo on a stock engine.. whats the point of spending extra...

Engine has done 110xxx KMs on it. So would you just recommend something like a GT2871R?

[Kingtal0n]

im just saying i would not use an expensive turbo or one with with a tiny turbine. Don't buy a used turbo either. There are some good quality inexpensive units out there.

T-25 is too small for my climate (80*F~). The type of turbine is based on ambient conditions and vehicle use. Daily drivers started in very cold climates enjoy very small turbines when total flow rate is on the low side, its good for super cold weather and on-off on-off mountain pass stuff probably near stock turbo flow rate (320bhp or 32lb/min and roughly 280rwhp dynojet). But its just too hot here, on gasoline, and we do way too much highway racing and constant pull type WOT racing, 1/2 mile and 1 mile applications are different thinking. You don't want the exhaust gas pressure of a T-25 hole, when the egt gets high, exhaust gas molecules gain so much energy they create too much space around them, the pressure goes way up which chokes the flow rate dramatically. The exhaust pressure is far more important to engine flow rate than the head in a turbo app and you the balance of getting it warm enough fast enough to be driving right away (T-25 daily driver original size turbo in freezing weather with 95 octane pump) against the on-set of heat soaked, peak steady state temps with 93 octane in hot climates, the turbine is way too small for us and our 93, and most unfortunately don't do much about the heating. Insulation helps with performance but packs even more heat into the turbine. Disregard all of this if you live in a freezing climate and need to drive and boost the car within minutes of starting it on city streets, the 28whatever is a great selection worth every penny.

It's a double edged sword and when the turbine is tiny the price is paid in... blood... engine blood

in general just realize that,
small high quality water cooled bb bottom mount turbo is just as expensive as a similar quality top mount turbo with a larger turbine, spend the 2k or 3k on that instead if spending that much, but then you better take great care of the engine and tune it properly and know what you are doing. Otherwise it won't matter what turbo you choose, the parts will falll out

[Dboyizmlg]

u guys are crazy to put such an expensive turbo on a stock redtop with probably high mileage

ur even more crazy for trying to keep a t25 flange on it

If i had a redtop right now I would rock a $400 turbo with a rebuildable center section because the engines life is timed and when it goes it could eat the turbo along with it

Absolutely no reason to use such an expensive unit

I just tuned a built sr with one of those new garret turbos. the compressor flows like 55lb/min we were able to squeeze 440rwhp from the injectors but it took 28psi of boost

So $5000 engine + $2000 turbo and you get around 50 more horsepower, and that was a top mount unit too. NOT WORTH IT

Totally pointless on a stock engine because you won't use 28 psi of boost. Just use a cheap turbo good for pump fuel and 18~psi of boost IMO

I stand behind my advice. use a cheap oem engine with a cheap turbo. Keep spare of both. 18psi 380rwhp. Not like you are going to get much more than that from any other turbo on a stock engine.. whats the point of spending extra...



SR20det engines don?t sell for $5,000 at least not in my area. They are going for around $2,900 average pricing.

AND, the GTX2863r are going for around $1,295

Where the heck did you get those numbers from ??? Lol

[Dboyizmlg]

Don?t listen to this guy ^. While he has valid points on somethings, other times he?s out of his mind.

The GTX2863R would be better suited to your needs. If you don?t have a solid bottomend(built) keep it under 400whp. T2 footprint turbos will bolt up, but you will need an intake and other associated items for it. Be prepared for possible boost creep, which may require you to add an external gate on the factory manifold, which is tried and proven setup.

Hahahaha lol shots fired!

[RalliartRsX]

If it was up to king, cars will stil be running 26 sec 1/4 milers times, cars will stell get 2 mpg and DD affordable high HP cars wouldnt exist...


Anyways, slap the GTX on there. A T3 whatever the fuck 40 year old turbo, will be an utter dog on a 2 liter .I had one. I have since been through a
T25
T28
S15 T28
GT2871R
EFR6258 (on car for less than 20 miles)
EFR 6758
EFR7163

Also, I have said this upteen times. A dyno graph is 20% of the equation. Real world drivability is impossible to capture on a dyno but king continues to post his outdate dyno graphs to back up his outdated thought process.....

Get a GTX. Make 400 reliable WHP on corn, 350 on pump, spool like a T25, and go hurt some feelings.

[5t341tH]

Is the gtx2863 the same physical size as a s15 t28? My engine swap has limited space in my datsun for a larger turbo

[RalliartRsX]

Yes it is the same physical size

[Dboyizmlg]

Is the gtx2863 the same physical size as a s15 t28? My engine swap has limited space in my datsun for a larger turbo


Yes it is!!!

You can also buy it T25 style flange which will be identical in external dimensions


https://www.tf-works.com/garrett-gtx2863r-sr20det-drop-in-turbo-upgrade-t25-flanged/

[Kingtal0n]

SR20det engines don?t sell for $5,000 at least not in my area. They are going for around $2,900 average pricing.

AND, the GTX2863r are going for around $1,295

Where the heck did you get those numbers from ??? Lol

$5000 is just for the parts and machine work to build the engine with forged pistons and rods.

You also need the $3000 to buy the engine stock.

So $8000 if you want the total price of engine + built.

You need those parts if you want to run more than 400rwhp through a 2.0L from 20 years ago

[Kingtal0n]

If it was up to king, cars will stil be running 26 sec 1/4 milers times, cars will stell get 2 mpg and DD affordable high HP cars wouldnt exist...

Anyways, slap the GTX on there. A T3 whatever the fuck 40 year old turbo, .....


You are thinking about old turbos, and I am not suggesting an old turbo.
already said 'do not buy a used turbo.'

I gave the general size of a compressor/turbine and suggested that he buy a brand new turbo that flows those requirements for half the price or less of the GTX style while including the turbine space necessary for the future and to keep temps and pressure down on the stock engine which is critical at those boost pressures on gasoline

For example borg warner $800 turbo supports 400 500 600 at that price range and is brand new. And the turbine is large enough that when it heats up it won't choke the engine or overheat the fragile cast pistons as easily.


Finally, the turbo tech has improved dramatically for all turbos in 2020 not just Garret. Everybody has the advanced wheel designs and superior materials available now, even the $150 turbos are showing good results at 800rwhp.

But what really improved since 20 years?
1. Adiabatic efficiency went up maybe 1 or 2% NOT MUCH
2. Flow rates have nearly doubled given the similar size 200% power
3. spool character improved also due to wheel design and shapes

For #1
So why didn't adiabatic efficiency go up much in the last 20-40 years?

Its because when compressing air there is a limit to how much heat you can withhold, due to friction of air molecules rubbing together naturally as pressure increases.

What does that mean for us? It means that a compressor from 40 years ago working in the center of it's island is just as capable as a compressor from today, give or take some minor adjustment 1 or 2% difference (today you might have Adiabatic of 72 or 74% whereas back then 70% was good)

Implies -> that new turbos are not 'better' at supporting more power with less boost. Its basically the same once the turbo is spooled.
The advantage modern turbos offer is their 'spool' and tolerance of higher pressure ratios, and greater total flow rates...

For #2, modern turbos unlock unlimited potential for power. It sounds great at first, but when we look at our stock, ancient 2.0L engine we realize something: both old and modern turbos support more power than we can use on a stock engine.

So if we combine #1 and #2 we see that a modern turbo literally offers nothing in terms of cooler air or increased power on a stock 2L engine.

All we have is #3- > Spool character

And yes you get some additional spool using a tiny ass turbine. Duh. That is a general concept regardless of how modern a turbo is.

And this is where our thoughts about how turbos should work diverge greatly.
A turbo isn't governed by a belt. It is not attached to the engine rotating speed.

that means you can speed up the turbine prior to demand, i.e. 2-steps, nitrous, timing tricks, pre-heating, use your imagination. There are MANY ways to get the boost you want, when you want it, whether on track or street there is always a way.

This is where application divides needs.
For drag racing you don't want or need the spool character, you need the larger turbine to take care of the rising EGT and extended pulls, and can spool the turbo (any turbo) using one of those techniques.

For daily driving or on-off (corners?) racing, in cold weather, the tiny turbine is not an issue and the extra small space gives extra spool which helps provides more torque when not employing any tricks of spool.


Yes you have to match turbo style to driving applications. But there are so few applications where the tiny turbine and tiny T-25 statute is actually desirable given that all modern turbos including those top mount with huge turbines have improved dramatically in terms of spool just like the small turbos have. Which levels the playing field in terms of spool if the top mount has an actual equal length (or even twin scroll style) manifold it will still spool like a modern bottom mount unit with a smaller turbine. So in the end of everything we see that there really is no advantage to using a bottom mount in 2020, not power, not efficiency, and just barely in very cold weather you will get some minor spool improvement while the engine is warming up. Thats it.

[Kingtal0n]

Showing GTX turbo vs comprable Borg Warner unit

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/evo-engine-turbo-drivetrain/754079-bw-s362-sxe-twinscroll-project.html#post11872920

GTX3582r vs S362 borg warner
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.evolutionm.net-vbulletin/1235x773/vd_gtx3582r_vs_s362_1_f6e229ce31e568398cca7137531e 80a198f98afe.jpg

dyno results
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/evo-engine-turbo-drivetrain/754079-bw-s362-sxe-twinscroll-project-2.html#post11874286


1. The Top mounted Borg warner on a 2L engine is just as capable as the GTX series if not more on the right manifold.
2. Even with such a huge turbo it reaches the same boost pressure/torque as the tiny t-25 turbine (300ft*lbs near 4k rpm) = ~25psi of boost at 4k rpm on 93 octane, can't ask for more from 2L , it reaches 20psi by 3800rpm.

There is almost nothing to lose going large on the turbo / turbine these days. No reason to use a small tiny turbine and choke your engine anymore.

[e30gangsta]

Another option is the new ns400. I haven't seen anyone mention it yet. Dual ball bearing, 400 wheel hp, bolt on, no need for a new manifold, or external wg, and you can use an existing turbo elbow/down pipe.

https://mmpturbos.com/blogs/news/welcome-to-the-family-ns400

[Kingtal0n]

Another option is the new ns400. I haven't seen anyone mention it yet. Dual ball bearing, 400 wheel hp, bolt on, no need for a new manifold, or external wg, and you can use an existing turbo elbow/down pipe.

https://mmpturbos.com/blogs/news/welcome-to-the-family-ns400

400 is slow now. Need 600 or 800hp in 2020 ! lol

every car has 400 now. New 2L VolksW make 500 to the tires with factory engines. There are electric cars that outrun 500hp cars too.
Anyone can buy a 900hp dodge and a ?00hp corvette. How we gonna keep up with that?


800 is the new 400

Actually it doesn't matter how much power you make with a 5-speed those newer cars with automatic and traction control will outrun with less power.
So we need to convert all our cars to automatic obviously and use larger engines.
I'm full of helpful advice aren't eye

[Dboyizmlg]

400 is slow now. Need 600 or 800hp in 2020 ! lol

every car has 400 now. New 2L VolksW make 500 to the tires with factory engines. There are electric cars that outrun 500hp cars too.
Anyone can buy a 900hp dodge and a ?00hp corvette. How we gonna keep up with that?


800 is the new 400

Actually it doesn't matter how much power you make with a 5-speed those newer cars with automatic and traction control will outrun with less power.
So we need to convert all our cars to automatic obviously and use larger engines.
I'm full of helpful advice aren't eye

So what?s your point???

[tb13]

400 is slow now. Need 600 or 800hp in 2020 ! lol

every car has 400 now. New 2L VolksW make 500 to the tires with factory engines. There are electric cars that outrun 500hp cars too.
Anyone can buy a 900hp dodge and a ?00hp corvette. How we gonna keep up with that?


800 is the new 400

Actually it doesn't matter how much power you make with a 5-speed those newer cars with automatic and traction control will outrun with less power.
So we need to convert all our cars to automatic obviously and use larger engines.
I'm full of helpful advice aren't eye

Bruh, chill.

OP asked a simple question, you're replies aren't useful. You may have vast wells of knowledge to share, but the majority of it doesn't relate to this topic.

[Kingtal0n]

the point was tongue in cheek but, you want actual words
Ill try: No matter what you do with a stock sr20
no matter how much power you make even if you built it

the car wont actually be 'fast' compared to some new cars are available
Not always because of a lack of power but due to a lack of various modern computer-control tech that is typically unavailable to sr20 engines (but could be added uniquely)
2L is 2L whether it was produced in 89 or 19 however the 19 version utilizes that displacement in a superior way and contains advanced chamber tech among other things such as superior computer modelled internal engine design and materials science etc...

So while the same displacement is present there is a vast chasm of technology looming between the old and new which cannot be jumped by just turning up the wick on power


therefore the metric of an sr20det for typical owners (daily drivers I guess) is no longer performance metric (power) based, its personal taste (quality) based.
i.e. you prefer the engine as one prefers an antique radio.
Not because it is superior but because of the feel and class, familiarity and design of ownership.
In a way, being more simple MAKES it a superior engine, may even be more reliable, it just isn't superior in terms of tech advance.

An engine like that should not be pushed, it should not be raced, it should be enjoyed at much less than break-neck power and maintained with quality parts

This doesn't reflect turbo selection, that is a whole other issue. What it does reflect into however is the level of ownership. In this case, op is new, or said something about being unfamiliar with cars, mechanics, etc... So there is an underlying misconception about power, turbos, and reliability in the minds of novices. In other words most noob think in terms of boost pressure and total output, whereas the vehicle as whole behavior is so far removed from that peak power potential that it makes absolutely no difference in anything other than peak racing situations. In reality the peak power is generally unimportant in the grand scheme of driving a car around town like a regular car, and there are many times when you will ask much less than peak from each gear and still want the car to behave "fun" and be safe.

The turbo choice on the other hand, with an engine like this is reflected around tuning knowledge of gasoline, of using gasoline properly, heat management, insulation and reflective materials, coatings and temperature gradients. Those things that are arguably much more important than the turbo selection itself, essential to the survival of a turbo config, yet often remain unmentioned in turbo discussion among novices.

So to be clear two issues hiding from a novice I think are important are
1. power based turbo selection (is a mistake) instead: fit the compressor map (use match bot or a pen/paper) to the style of driving and use a large turbine when on gasoline fuels at high temps
2. differentiating between very hot situations and climate controlled situations (i.e. traffic in the sun with a/c on mile roll racing vs a cold night at the dyno or 1/4 mile track with the engine shut down between runs)


using gasoline?
The power peak potential or max flow rate of the engine is only 1 data point of an infinite number of potential points along a curve. The behavior of gasoline inside the engine as a SUM of ALL the infinite points is modeled as a Fourier series or infinite series of potential curve fitting solutions to a partial differential equation and beyond the scope of this discussion, which is why I keep breaking it down into the types of situations the vehicle will face (exact solutions) i.e. freezing cold temps vs very hot ambient temps in sunlight traffic. It's much easier to look at each situation separately than it is to look at every single situation at the same time trying to fit a timing number to all of them. Most of us want the engine to be safe under the absolute most brutal conditions, so when tuning for that safety I would figure the hottest part of the day, highest ambient temps, uphill in overdrive, with as much boost as you dare. And this condition neither reflects the typical tuning on a dyno nor does it reflect typical street driving in 1:1 gearing, so where is the line drawn? Or how can we manage the line so the curve fits ALL situations and not just the very cold or lightly loaded ones on a typical lightweight dyno roller while having a meltdown in traffic or mile highway racing. (hint: use the large turbine)

[5t341tH]

Yes it is!!!

You can also buy it T25 style flange which will be identical in external dimensions


https://www.tf-works.com/garrett-gtx2863r-sr20det-drop-in-turbo-upgrade-t25-flanged/
whats better for spool response? .86 or .64?

[Kingtal0n]

Some might be wondering how to fit a compressor map to type of driving

I will share my most recent turbo selection to illustrate

I used matchbot to generate this and make life easy
https://i.postimg.cc/Zn5h7QYf/My5-3turbo-Lsx.png

Units: The graph is in kg/s so here is a conversion at the given air temp:

.2 = 25lb/min
.3 = 40lb/min
.4 = 53lb/min
.5 = 66lb/min


And this is very simple. If you want the fastest spooling turbo possible you would choose the smallest (diameter) compressor wheel that supports the power peak intended. This often leaves nothing in the turbo as it runs off the right side of the map...


Stock turbos run off the map. If you are doing it right in a traffic situation it will run off the map. Those are the fastest turbochargers, but they can generate a very high IAT if they actually fall off the map. Notice how the red dots gradually lead you right off the edge of the map but they don't quite make it off the edge... turning it up a little more and it would totally fall right off and that would start heating up the IAT dramatically so we don't do that.


This is how you select a turbo for that situation (spool character + supports max engine flow rate while ALMOST falling off the map)

Keep in mind these maps are not in mass flow even though they pretend to be. A compressor wheel moves VOLUME not MASS so the mass values shown on the map are actually just PREDICTED mass values based on a constant air temperature. Which means they are not exact since temp moves around wherever it wants which reflects air density and therefore mass flow.

But I digress. The point is adiabatic efficient of the turbo is "GREAT" for the region of the map where the engine spends the most time. e.g. for this turbo, daily driver RPM ranges of 3k to 5k. This is the RPM range to shoot for in most daily drivers. This is where you want the center island adiabatic activity to take place in those vehicles.


So lets look at a drag racing example now instead of a daily driver. How does the map reflect the turbo choice and compressor wheel size?

So here is one I did fast just now, just for this example
https://www.borgwarner.com/go/D2DRAH
https://i.postimg.cc/4xfQ3bRd/roughexample.png

This is a 2.0L approx 30psi of boost making 500hp or so.
In this case however notice how the data points are ending near the center island, as opposed to running off the right of the map.

This is the major difference between a street turbo and a drag racing turbo selection.

The street is all about mid-range torque which means minimizing compressor wheel size
The drag racing / peak performance is all about top-end which means you want the coolest air from the turbo at peak output which is why we shoot for the center island instead of the right side of the map.

The drag racing large turbo size will spool slower, but luckily people doing drag racing know how to fix that (2-step etc)
The street turbo which supports a very strong mid-range will spool faster but supports less power overall

To re-cap
for street driving / daily driving / mid range turbo selection of response, choose a turbo that just hits your power goal
For drag racing / all out performance / max hp selection of power, choose a turbo which supports around 30 to 40% more power than you are actually going to make.

[Kingtal0n]

Ive done so many 2871r cars lets see

ancient tune from wayyyy back
https://i.postimg.cc/FF0ygn9z/64argt2871r.jpg

That was a friends car. My father's car has the 84 but its on a full race manifold and fully built so might not be fair...! but Ill try to find it...

[Kingtal0n]

Okay all this talk of big turbines let me show some example for sr20
this turbo style, age and manufacturer tech
https://i.postimg.cc/L5JGGKvc/fullraceturbo.png
this is the smallest ass turbo they make for our beloved engine and it has an almost... well just look for yourself
https://i.postimg.cc/qRh95H19/EFR7670.png
its a 2L turbo for a modern engine. This turbo will protect the engine when using gasoline without water injection and without methanol injection and provides more than enough power to facilitate the installation of rods and pistons.
It would work well in very hot environments or with high EGT.
https://i.postimg.cc/rmFBCt4F/likethis.png
If you can do rods and pistons, and build the 2L, I would go next step up in turbo 650hp and sprinkle nitrous progressive up to 75hp is plenty, to get it moving.
At rods pistons though you are also def flex fuel and haltech, its a whole extra level of costs, Alcohol is expensive and you've five to ten times the cost of supplies and maintenance then. there is invisible costs associated with built engines that clock is ticking and there is an engine on a shelf or you are doing it wrong. One is none and two is one.
So alcohol, nitrous, 650hp top mount turbo, what are we missing. God what transmission will we use? There is nothing. OH I remember this now, lol. This was the question I kept asking myself back in the day, "I want 750hp through a few useful gears, what transmission will I use?" When you start drag racing competitively, the only transmission you can use faithfully is automatic transmission. And there is no way I would choose to weigh down a 2L with an auto lol. It cost just as much to build a 5.3L as it does a 2L. So anyways, you just don't. You don't build the 2L engine, its crazy to do that pathway, you don't go for the 650hp turbo, you don't sprinkle much nitrous. But DO gain ethanol and do choose a brand new turbo unit if you have a good condition engine you are trying to protect from a reputable company borg warner or garret only IMO


I'm not saying everyone should go bigger. But I would personally after experiencing the whole thing from within and without, I will not use a T-25 flange turbo ever again unless it was a rule and then I would be in there porting it to the absolutely maximum, wheres codyace dynograph extrude hone T-25 example when you need it...

[NukeKS14]

(diarrhea of words)

I am with you on the BW argument, having gone the route of an $800 BW S257SX-E in favor of a $2k Garrett 3076 myself, but...

It's nice you're trying to 'teach a man how to fish' but, and maybe this is just me being a jaded old dude, I don't think that the level of time/effort you put into explaining all of that is commiserate with the knowledge gain the OP is going to get anyhow, so it's more of a 'flex' but meh. IMHO you're definitely on the FAR side of the bell curve here of cost-to-benefit. That's totally your call to make but... :-/

Back on topic, yeah that's what it really comes down to here; value. It's 2020 and there are some fantastic journal bearing options (or bb for that matter) for a fraction of what their equivalents cost 5 or 10 years ago. OP, it's your car and you're the only one who matters on what parts make you happy on your car. Someone wanting to spend a lot of money to say they have X Garrett turbo is equivalent to people donking out their rides and spending $5k on wheels for a $2k Caprice in my opinion, but it's not my car. There are applications where it matters, but those applications generally involve sponsors and lap timers and I appreciate them greatly for the money they throw at advancing technology for the end user like myself. Maybe it's more of a cookbook thing and they're copying a build they read about that made XX power and they want that instead of either learning how to plot the compressor map or work with a reputable tuner shop? Probably more of the second.

OP, much of the advice you have been given is sound. Borg Warner, Garrett, and Precision all have some great quality options out there today. Take some time deciding where you want to spend your money (aka end goal of the car) and either start working with a knowledgeable and reputable tuner in your area, or start digging around the wealth of knowledge that is this forum and go from there. The only way you're going to end up disappointed is by installing a bunch of patch-work components on your car from various build lists or rando internet wizards without understanding them. Your car will be a lot more enjoyable to you when everything works in harmony with how you're trying to use it. :2c:

[Kingtal0n]

I am with you on the BW argument, having gone the route of an $800 BW S257SX-E in favor of a $2k Garrett 3076 myself, but...

It's nice you're trying to 'teach a man how to fish' but, and maybe this is just me being a jaded old dude, I don't think that the level of time/effort you put into explaining all of that is commiserate with the knowledge gain the OP is going to get anyhow, so it's more of a 'flex' but meh.


The info is here for a long enough time that others can come back to see it when they are more well equipped.
These topics have already been answered 'troll topics' about T-25 turbos have at least 9000 of them to answer these questions "Do a search" Thus I consider this topic already 'closed' and 'obsolete' so my posts are basically ib4tl to absorb time but also provide accurate helpful info insights


It happens even to me sometimes,
I've been trying to learn some basic things about coding arduino microprocessors in my spare time
https://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=647978.0


so anyways here someone kingtal0n's me
https://www.edaboard.com/showthread.php?388022-Basic-12v-Battery-VOLTAGE-METER-more-resolution-needed&p=1672198&viewfull=1#post1672198

its not like he had to make that super long post but I will find it extremely helpful and now its there forever so I can learn more and come back to it in a new light and see things a different way each time, I'll just keep using my own common sense to determine if it makes sense. Or something. We need to learn to fish, there are some experience that books can't teach and visca versa. We might never work in a power plant but by conversing with those that do we can learn insights that books alone aren't enough to give for example.

an extremely long worded difficult to break down message which contains the secrets necessary to increase level as Engineer
have you tried reading a mathematic methods book or linear equations? they dont read like the novels of Anatomy and physiology thats for sure.

[Dboyizmlg]

whats better for spool response? .86 or .64?



.64 all day long is far better for response!!!

That will get you around 330-350whp with small cam upgrade (Tomei 256)
On pump gas


If you tune on E85 you are looking at 400whp but you will need at least injector dynamics 1050cc

[brndck]

Another option is the new ns400. I haven't seen anyone mention it yet. Dual ball bearing, 400 wheel hp, bolt on, no need for a new manifold, or external wg, and you can use an existing turbo elbow/down pipe.

https://mmpturbos.com/blogs/news/welcome-to-the-family-ns400

$1700 is a big chunk of change tho.
For my money i'd go with something else.

[RalliartRsX]

The worst about it, king has some VERY good info on these pages. However, again, dyno numbers are literally 20-30% of the equation. For instance, EFR has mixed flow turbine wheel on the 7163, and the gamma ti material is half the weight of the equivalent new Garrett Inconel wheels.

Unless one is spending several thousands for "real" simulation dyno runs (for example, RPM based tip in throttle), the technology inherent in the EFRs is NOT going to show up on a simple, foot to the floor dyno......

I can promise you; a 400WHP SR20VET on a EFR 7163, is going to have an entirely different characteristic than a bog standard S13 SR20DET with a GT2871R turned up to 400WHP. Or even a S14/S15 with VVT on the same GT2871R turned up to 400WHP.

King continues to fail to address this point. Real world drivability is entirely different among the three........

However, a bottom mount T25 flange turbo is........a pain. Small M6 studs ALWAYS stretch (inconel helps a bit) and blow gaskets. Vband or T3/T4 flange with M8 studs/bolts.

To the OP; a .64 will have "better" (relative) spool than the equivalent .86

[brndck]

However, a bottom mount T25 flange turbo is........a pain. Small M6 studs ALWAYS stretch (inconel helps a bit) and blow gaskets. Vband or T3/T4 flange with M8 studs/bolts.



nord locks help too, but obv they can't compensate for stretched studs.

[5t341tH]

.64 all day long is far better for response!!!

That will get you around 330-350whp with small cam upgrade (Tomei 256)
On pump gas


If you tune on E85 you are looking at 400whp but you will need at least injector dynamics 1050cc

Thanks. I?m currently using s15 t28 with 740cc and tomei poncams. My goal is 350 but I’m on Cali’s 91 pump gas. I’m more concern on boost response than all out power. My Datsun is lightweight already.

[e1_griego]

I've only had one T2 gasket let go in 8+ years of bottom-mount gt(x)28 ownership, for what it's worth. I usually do 3-4 track days a year and drive it plenty hard.

I am currently debating with myself on a g25-550 (I wish there was a bottom mount option...) but it's hard to argue with the simplicity of a 2863/67, t25 inlet and 5 bolt outlet. A flex section in the downpipe and running the exhaust hanger from the trans mount is key to keeping the t2 studs/gaskets happy.

[brndck]

I've only had one T2 gasket let go in 8+ years of bottom-mount gt(x)28 ownership, for what it's worth. I usually do 3-4 track days a year and drive it plenty hard.

I am currently debating with myself on a g25-550 (I wish there was a bottom mount option...) but it's hard to argue with the simplicity of a 2863/67, t25 inlet and 5 bolt outlet. A flex section in the downpipe and running the exhaust hanger from the trans mount is key to keeping the t2 studs/gaskets happy.

similar story here. i used to blow through 4bolt turbo gaskets or 3bolt downpipe to elbow gaskets about every 4 months. Once i switched to Moonface 1pc oval downpipe/elbow, i never had another gasket blow out in 6+ years of heavy use (track use, daily driving, cross country trips). Having a properly mounted exhaust that doesn't scrape will make a huge improvement on how much force gets transmitted.

[Kingtal0n]

King continues to fail to address this point. Real world drivability is entirely different among the three........



actually you just failed to read, I covered the power isn't important aspect quite clearly several places


...So while the same displacement is present there is a vast chasm of technology looming between the old and new which cannot be jumped by just turning up the wick on power...


therefore the metric of an sr20det for typical owners (daily drivers I guess) is no longer performance metric (power) based...

it should be enjoyed at much less than break-neck power and maintained with quality parts...

...whereas the vehicle as whole behavior is so far removed from that peak power potential that it makes absolutely no difference in anything other than peak racing situations. In reality the peak power is generally unimportant in the grand scheme of driving a car around town like a regular car, and there are many times when you will ask much less than peak from each gear and still want the car to behave "fun" and be safe.


my entirely philosophy is that power is meaningless and to buy based on safety and standards, simplicity, and finally cost if applicable.
Sorry I know its alot to read. I am not blaming anyone. Just saying the info is in there, you just need a effective way of converting words into useful thought

[RalliartRsX]

.........so then why would you recommend

1) He shouldn't spend any more than a T3/T04E because all he want's is 300WHP and then throw a bunch of dyno graphs around like it tells the full story??
2) Throw around random assumptions about an engines price tag, etc and have that dictate what the OP should spend HIS own money on??
3) Also stating blanket statement like a "T25" for climate (whatever the fuck that means) is nonsense. Last EFR 7163 I saw in T2 housing made 500WHP easily. Top mount T518 (if I remember correctly) in NZ (hot as balls) made 390 WHP without blinking.

My all stock Redtop (bought for $1500 locally) made 320 reliable WHP for 15 track days and didn't have a single failure. I didn't need to spend "$7000" to upgrade to a "$1500" (EFR) turbo.......

Literally in one post you state "I would throw a T3/T04E because $$$, then state the new technology stuff is awesome, but not worth the penny". You say alot of good info, but tend to contradict post to post.....

In my eyes, they new technology stuff IS worth the penny and it is the OP OWN money. If he want's a GTX, let the man be.......

[Kingtal0n]

.........so then why would you recommend

1) He shouldn't spend any more than a T3/T04E because all he want's is 300WHP and then throw a bunch of dyno graphs around like it tells the full story??
2) Throw around random assumptions about an engines price tag, etc and have that dictate what the OP should spend HIS own money on??
3) Also stating blanket statement like a "T25" for climate (whatever the fuck that means) is nonsense. Last EFR 7163 I saw in T2 housing made 500WHP easily. Top mount T518 (if I remember correctly) in NZ (hot as balls) made 390 WHP without blinking.

My all stock Redtop (bought for $1500 locally) made 320 reliable WHP for 15 track days and didn't have a single failure. I didn't need to spend "$7000" to upgrade to a "$1500" (EFR) turbo.......

Literally in one post you state "I would throw a T3/T04E because $$$, then state the new technology stuff is awesome, but not worth the penny". You say alot of good info, but tend to contradict post to post.....

In my eyes, they new technology stuff IS worth the penny and it is the OP OWN money. If he want's a GTX, let the man be.......

couple things I guess,

I am being contradictive for a couple reasons. One is because ive been out of the sr20 world for so long I forgot some things. Which I am slowly remembering as we continue. that is why my original suggestions are seeming contradictory (they are, you aren't crazy, sorry) When we started I figured the engine has 200,000 miles so I was thinking temp turbo. That makes me jump to the T04E everybody has sitting on a shelf. Like if you literally call the closest turbo place they probably have one just sitting there unused, nobody wants it, $30 to rebuilt and stick it on the ancient high mileage engine and go for now. The idea is basically 350rwhp from any sr20 should be free, immediately, using basic junk. IOW I wouldn't pay anything to get 350 from a 2.0L lol, not 2k not 500, it should be free.

then I found it it has only 110k miles or something. At this point I am waking up and asking myself what was the ideal turbo to...
and then I remembered about the whole T-25 hole thing. I have had enough T-25 turbine turbo to understand that I will never want to use one again. Ever. No matter what. Unless of course I was in an extremely cold climate.

its just... tuning strategy based on what I understand about gasoline

The exhaust gas literally takes up more space the hotter it gets and one thing I love about gasoline (or hate) is how much heat is available from it anytime you want it, and anytime you don't want it. So you see, a nice big turbine hole is going to let you be very conservative with ignition timing, its like opening a tuning window full of safety nets. You can use very low timing values and throw excess gasoline derived energy right into that hole because its got plenty of room, see? The EGT won't rise as quickly, pressure won't rise rapidly. This technique serves to boost turbine performance (makes up for the huge turbine) AND protect the engine at high temperature on pump fuel with a weak piston, even at high boost pressures say 25 to 28psi maybe even 32psi on 93 octane is possible if done right, because the turbo will now thrive at very high brake specific fuel consumption (terrible engine efficiency) which serves to protect the engine from detonation and the bad things that happen when you push timing all without the negative effects of raising EGT and EGP (temp and pressure) trying to force all that energy through the tiny T-25 sized hole (in an already heat-soaked environment, tucked under the armpit of a 1800*F manifold, there is no relief).

If you are willing to use water injection with a sprinkle of methanol then you can trash compressor flow rate potential to gain back the safety margin of low temperature exhaust... and keep the T-25 but now you need an enormous compressor flow rate to make up for the energy sapping that water brings to the table. You are better off using E85 at that point. Whereas the huge turbine can get by without water, and methanol would only improve the safety margin for tuning, whereas with the T-25 hole methanol would raise the temp further despite it increasing the octane because meth is still a fuel and will burn.

I'm not concerned about spending $$ if the engine is worth it, see that my recommendation is based on safety and tuning perspective only, not performance or power.
And there is the best of both, twin scroll to consider. Which is superior to anything afaik and barely discussed. I can see why given the OEM engine nevertheless it offers both a large turbine potential and spool character of a smaller turbo.



naxsht
Dynojet is a standard
Those aren't just dyno graphs, they are dynojet standardized roller graphs.
I never use any other dynometer and many also subscribe to this type of dynometer because its numbers never lie, they cannot be fooled higher or lower as any other dyno can be. Therefore it is a fair comparison between cars when examining these type of graphs and it does lend a standardized measurement to compare against any other vehicle or engine using the same dynometer.

In other words I can be assured when I see 400rwhp dynojet that a 3000lb vehicle will run a very specific MPH range at the 1/4 mile track. The performance metric is extremely meaningful. Likewise if a brand new car put down 400 and my car puts down 400 its a fair gambit at whichever is lighter or has a better driver, there won't be any surprise gap between the numbers on the chart. However there can be marked difference in traction control and torque delivery priority or gear ratio shenanigans that newer cars will utilize torque more effectively to gain an advantage (which is why sr20 is not about power anymore, don't chase the peak number)

Now, there are still plenty of ways to fool a turbo torque/spool curve. I could for example load the engine on the dyno's brake prior to recording the run, this will show more an 'instant spool' on the dynoplot if done properly. This is why video footage of dyno runs is very helpful in nailing down how the run was performed, or data logs at least. Once you have those conditions, and the torque curve from a dynojet, you have everything you need if you know how your vehicle weight compares to the dynojet roller weight. Which fwiw is very close to representing a 3000lb vehicle in terms of road load

[e30gangsta]

$1700 is a big chunk of change tho.
For my money i'd go with something else.

What other turbo out there has similar specs and allows you to use your exsisting 5 bolt elbow/downpipe/bottom mount manifold with that kind of performance? It doesn't exist that I know of.

[Kingtal0n]

cant resist... T-25 is like this now, it has an effect on what is available from other companies

https://www.ebay.com/itm/GT2871R-T28-TURBO-CHARGER-AR60-64-FITS-S13-S14-S15-SR20-SR20DET-SILVIA-400HP/381342819543?hash=item58c9cda4d7:g:AEMAAOSwrklVbN2 8

14 sold and 0 reviews. Huh. You'd think there would be 13 people complaining

[blackmags91]

Hey for what its worth:

My redtop s13 was tuned today on an ECUMasters Black, 91 octane, gtx2867 with tial vband housing, 17psi. Made ~305whp, didnt finish the tune today.

Tomorrow, finishing up the pump gas tune, then jumping to ethanol and ~22psi. Hoping to make 350-360ish. Stock sr trans which I'm tryin to keep rocking... so going to call it quits right around there.

External gate, top mount manifold. 850cc injectors in stock rail.

I guess I didn't really answer any questions that have been asked... just saw the thread title and figured this was relevant lol

Will report back with final numbers. And I'm interested to see how quickly it can build 22psi.
Hopefully tomorrow!

[Dboyizmlg]

Hey for what its worth:

My redtop s13 was tuned today on an ECUMasters Black, 91 octane, gtx2867 with tial vband housing, 17psi. Made ~305whp, didnt finish the tune today.

Tomorrow, finishing up the pump gas tune, then jumping to ethanol and ~22psi. Hoping to make 350-360ish. Stock sr trans which I'm tryin to keep rocking... so going to call it quits right around there.

External gate, top mount manifold. 850cc injectors in stock rail.

I guess I didn't really answer any questions that have been asked... just saw the thread title and figured this was relevant lol

Will report back with final numbers. And I'm interested to see how quickly it can build 22psi.
Hopefully tomorrow!



Those numbers seem very low for that turbo.

What cams are you using ???

[Kingtal0n]

Those numbers seem very low for that turbo.

What cams are you using ???

it must be stock cams or there is something wrong with that engine

inb4stockcams

also he could be measuring boost from the hot-pipe which could be 2-4psi higher than intake

[RalliartRsX]

..........or maybe he's on a heart breaker dyno.

Otherwise I agree, low numbers are low numbers

[blackmags91]

Lol yep, stock cams. Stock everything up top other than BC springs, retainers, keepers, and guides. Its a street car. Wanted to keep the stop light drive-ability to some extent. Will certainly see some local Friday night drift events but that's about it.
It's a MAP setup, so I believe boost reference is taken inside the manifold? Also like I said yesterday, the 91 tune isn't completely done yet. I bet he can squeeze another 10-20 hp out of it.

Could be a heart breaker dyno... idk. I'm at Black Market Racing in Phoenix, AZ. They seem to have a good reputation and have been pretty good to me so far.

It's a zero mile engine - completely broken down, tanked, and rebuilt with the stuff I listed in my last post, along with Manley H-beams and CP 9:1's...
I should mention that the motor (entire car) sat cold for 2+ years after the engine build. I was a little worried about that before this recent first-start, but nothing I can do about time gone by... Life got in the way

[RalliartRsX]

91 octane sucks lol

What dyno are you using??

[Kingtal0n]

lol the sr20 is not large enough displacement to utilize effective torque at 2500rpm

the stock transmission will take the sr past 3500 immediately from a dead stop, even driving gently its just a split second

the stock cam is completely unnecessary and it cuts off perhaps 25% or more of the power potential.. 300 instead of 370.
If it makes 350 on E at 22psi that would be over 400rwhp on pump gas and 18psi if it had even a small cam

[RalliartRsX]

You have it backwards......

He's not going to make more power on pump with less boost.......unless the tuner is an utter idiot

Stock cams will do 350 wheel with some boost.

[Kingtal0n]

You have it backwards......

He's not going to make more power on pump with less boost.......unless the tuner is an utter idiot

Stock cams will do 350 wheel with some boost.

uh power will go up 25% with a cam. I get 400 all the time at 18psi with a cam.

Hes barely going to hit 350 using E85 and 22psi with the OEM cam?

not backwards bro

stock cams will do what aftermarket cams will do... with like 5psi extra boost. And the number goes up with rpm, i.e. 5psi at 5k, 6psi at 6k, 7psi at 7k
not exactly but the higher you go the worse the OEM cam will do the more boost you need to match aftermarket cam

At the end of the day they can support identical power but you will just need more boost with the OEM cam
....Which is really annoying. Having plumbing pop apart at 25psi when you only need 19psi and shit.
The other factor is compressor map. Pressure ratio and flow wind up somewhere on that map, and if you increase pressure without increasing flow you move up but not to the right. Most of the time that puts you out of an efficiency island because the majority of compressor maps tend to lean towards the right which favors increasing flow WITH increasing pressure.

[blacksr]

love all the knowledge being dropped in here

[blackmags91]

Numbers are in for now.
365hp on e54 at 19psi. And yes I'm sure just adding a cam would bring it up around 400.

[Kingtal0n]

Numbers are in for now.
365hp on e54 at 19psi. And yes I'm sure just adding a cam would bring it up around 400.

depends on RPM.

Power is not just one number and neither is torque.

The cam opens the top end 5000 6000 7000 8000rpm

As long as the turbo has room to go, the power will climb as rpm climbs if the engine can breath properly.


It would make close to 420rwhp at 7000rpm with 19psi manifold pressure
but it will also make 450 or 460rwhp at 8000rpm with the same boost

[blackmags91]

I realize that power is a function of engine speed and torque.
I guess I'll rephrase my previous post for you:

Peak power was 365 at 19psi on e54, with an ignition cut at 7,100rpm. I'm sure that only adding an aftermarket cam set would bring peak horsepower up around 400 without changing fuel type, manifold pressure, or rev limit.

[Kingtal0n]

I realize that power is a function of engine speed and torque.
I guess I'll rephrase my previous post for you:

Peak power was 365 at 19psi on e54, with an ignition cut at 7,100rpm. I'm sure that only adding an aftermarket cam set would bring peak horsepower up around 400 without changing fuel type, manifold pressure, or rev limit.

And I'm saying it should be even higher. I've made 400 with 18psi on 93 alone plenty of times.

random large turbine redtop example
I think this was actually 17psi at the intake
https://i.postimg.cc/ZRmnQyJ4/Karlfinal400hp6-23-11.jpg
Basically, 15-18psi should give you 300ft*lbs of torque from an 2L with roughly 8.5:1 compression
With just 9 or 10* of timing on 93 octane.
So with E85 it should produce a bit more torque, say 320 to 330 with a bit more timing that 93 cannot access.
By 7000rpm 320-330ft*lbs should be around (330*7000/(33,000/2*pi) = 440rwhp on E85 (a gain of 30-40whp is typical with 15-18psi of boost at 2L)

That goes no matter what manufacturer
Just like 0psi of boost should put down about half of that or ~150ft*lbs

Wheres the graph? Always post graphs. It needs
1. dynojet
2. smoothing = 0
3. Air Fuel curve

If you get those 3 things or at the very least a dynojet curve its easy to compare across engines or even platforms.