Touge Factory K-series Swap Kit

[PoorMans180SX]

Just thought you guys might be interested in knowing about this if you don't and/or talking about it! Touge Factory has just released their K-series swap kit for S13/14/15. I had the pleasure of building them an engine harness and rewiring the power management on their S14 time attack car. Really cool stuff if you ask me!

The swap uses a BMW ZF transmission and adapter plate. Pictured below is the modified oil pan that was built and tested after the initial shakedown that Hoonigan attended.

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Some of the harness I built, which they'll be releasing as part of the kit soon:

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LWKspve-dF8

[eagleeyes221]

That wire harness looks amazing. you did some great work

[BryanSayWhat]

Definitely interested in this kit.

Those subframe spacers look way thinner than the ones Speed Academy used for their K swap, so I'm guessing it won't really effect geometry that badly?

Also, it would be nice to know if A/C is going to be a possibility.

[ZenkiKid]

Cool.


I get that K series are more abundant and cheaper but the initial up front cost (Motor, swap parts, sourcing the e36 transmission, standalone ecu, etc) to even do this to an s chassis kinda defeats that argument.

[RalliartRsX]

K series to the world!!!

[TheRealSy90]

So what are the typical engine management options for the K-Series? Anything Plug and Play? Or just whatever you want and a custom made harness.

I'd really love to do a K24 with a garret G25-550. Just seems like it would be a LOT of money. Yeah the long block is cheap, but literally everything else has to be custom/aftermarket.

[BryanSayWhat]

^^What if Touge Factory ends up offering a bolt-on turbo kit (honestly can't remember if they are, or not)?

[deolio]

So what are the typical engine management options for the K-Series? Anything Plug and Play? Or just whatever you want and a custom made harness.

I'd really love to do a K24 with a garret G25-550. Just seems like it would be a LOT of money. Yeah the long block is cheap, but literally everything else has to be custom/aftermarket.

hondata, ktuner, aem, etc, etc i'm assuming the tf kit will have that sorted when it comes out. they're releasing the kit in three phases. there is much more info and parts to come.

yeah initial investment is high, but if you grenade a motor (as long as it isn't built) it's only gonna set you back a few hundred dollars instead of a few grand for a comparably-powered sr or ka.

[RB25GUY]

^even than the initial price compared to the k miata kits a few years back is super low.... whenever i get my setup running and craps the bed this is def the way to go.....

[PoorMans180SX]

That wire harness looks amazing. you did some great work

Thanks!

Definitely interested in this kit.

Those subframe spacers look way thinner than the ones Speed Academy used for their K swap, so I'm guessing it won't really effect geometry that badly?

Also, it would be nice to know if A/C is going to be a possibility.

Yeah that’s because the custom oil pan allows the engine to sit much lower. I don’t think the S14 even runs them.

Cool.


I get that K series are more abundant and cheaper but the initial up front cost (Motor, swap parts, sourcing the e36 transmission, standalone ecu, etc) to even do this to an s chassis kinda defeats that argument.

It’s probably the most capable swap per dollar spent. Standalone ecu is not needed. None of the parts are that expensive besides the aftermarket components you’d be buying for any other engine.

So what are the typical engine management options for the K-Series? Anything Plug and Play? Or just whatever you want and a custom made harness.

I'd really love to do a K24 with a garret G25-550. Just seems like it would be a LOT of money. Yeah the long block is cheap, but literally everything else has to be custom/aftermarket.

The S14 runs stock ecu with K-pro. I’m fairly certain TF is going to offer a bolt on top mount v-band turbo kit. I honestly think an NA K24 with intake manifold, header, and cams would be a blast. So simple!

[RedSled]

Wow harness really bess
Can you build a harness for me ?

[Almighty So]

Cool.


I get that K series are more abundant and cheaper but the initial up front cost (Motor, swap parts, sourcing the e36 transmission, standalone ecu, etc) to even do this to an s chassis kinda defeats that argument.

Check out TFs ks14 on dyno. Changed my opinion in a hurry lol

[Krusty_s13]

I'd really love to do a K24 with a garret G25-550.

THIS.


I am definitely going to consider this swap. I agree with the initial investment being high, but 450+whp from a bone stock longblock is very inviting.

[TheRealSy90]

Someone add up all the K-Swap parts on TF's website and post the total cost. I'm too lazy.

[tuzzio]

Man this is awesome. Friend is putting a K24 in his FD RX7 and im super excited.

[Krusty_s13]

Someone add up all the K-Swap parts on TF's website and post the total cost. I'm too lazy.

Super ballpark figures

K24 - $600
ZF 5spd - $500
TF Kit - $1700
Custom DS - $600
Harness - $1000
Clutch - $600?
Misc shit - $500?
Header - $750?
kpro - $800

so roughly $7k for a NA variant of this swap. A turbo setup will definitely rock that up.

[RalliartRsX]

Turbo kit - factor in another 2-4K considering the need for fuel as well.

Also, because there is always the "forgot this" factor; add another $1000 to your $500 for miscellaneous shit.

So for a cool $10K, you are balls deep into a turbo K20/K24 swap.

So about the cost of a proper VET setup. Or about 1-2K more than a garden variety VET swap (which also includes a CD009 and building up from a bare block).

Bare SR block with cam caps, crank, oil pan, etc - $400
VE head - $4-$700
VE valvetrain and/or N1 cams
- Valvetrain - 800
N1 cams - 450 new shipped
- Machine work for block - $800-1K
- Forged internals - 1000
- swap miscellaneous - $1000
- Turbo kit - 2K
- IM - 500
Injectors - 500
CD009 swap and kit - 2K
ECU - 1K

So for a cool 12K you are also into a VET swap.

10-12K for a stock K24 with a turbo kit than can be had in the junkyard for 500 if blown up or 10K for a VET that drops right in with all the parts necessary at your disposal to run AC/PS, etc but close to 1-2K if blown up. However plenty of parts still available either way.

I guess pick you poison??

[collegekid]

You are also talking LS swap price range too, not that I'm a fanboy or anything.

We had a 2006 Accord with the k24, super reliable engine. Went 100k miles with only oil changes, a PS pump, a starter, and failed vtec solenoid at the end. We bought that car new and it was totaled when someone rear ended my mother.

I'm very interested in the true max limit on what the stock block can actually hold reliably. I see some people hit high numbers on the dyno but for how long.

[RalliartRsX]

Meh. A LS swap (atleast for my intended purposes) requires addressing the oiling system, which adds several more thousands to the price. I also love me some turbo and a powerband that extends out from 3500 - 8500RPM. Also, keeps the engine bay accessible.

LS, K-series or VET all comes down to preference :)

[Krusty_s13]

LS, K-series or VET all comes down to preference :)

This!

For a dedicated drift car I would definitely consider the K24. The reliability of the k series and what its capable of in stock trim is fantastic. Humble performance has a video up on Youtube of a 600+whp pass with a stock internal k24a4. I can agree that we won't know how itll hold up to the abuse of drifting but the drag racing guys have been using these engines for well over quite some time with huge success.

[PoorMans180SX]

I'd really love to do a K24 with a garret G25-550.

THIS.


I am definitely going to consider this swap. I agree with the initial investment being high, but 450+whp from a bone stock longblock is very inviting.

Honestly, on a stock block car, the G25 is too small. Not only will it choke the top end, but the stock rods aren't going to allow you to run the massive torque hit you're thinking you want. I think you'd be surprised how well the K24 spools turbos. The TF works car has a very LS-style powerband, and they run a v-band Precision 6062 turbo. Something that size is going to be a lot better for a stock block car, where you want to keep the torque around 400ft/lbs and flat to redline so the power keeps climbing.

Meh. A LS swap (atleast for my intended purposes) requires addressing the oiling system, which adds several more thousands to the price. I also love me some turbo and a powerband that extends out from 3500 - 8500RPM. Also, keeps the engine bay accessible.

LS, K-series or VET all comes down to preference :)

Yep, K-series provides the fattest powerband for the smallest coin IMHO.

[tuzzio]

Awesome power plant.
Awesome looking swap kit.
Fantastic looking harness.

Hopefully this drives the price of KA's back down!

[Krusty_s13]

Honestly, on a stock block car, the G25 is too small. Not only will it choke the top end, but the stock rods aren't going to allow you to run the massive torque hit you're thinking you want. I think you'd be surprised how well the K24 spools turbos. The TF works car has a very LS-style powerband, and they run a v-band Precision 6062 turbo. Something that size is going to be a lot better for a stock block car, where you want to keep the torque around 400ft/lbs and flat to redline so the power keeps climbing.


Interesting. Is there a dyno graph available? I figured it might loose some steam up top with a 550.

[RalliartRsX]

NO power band. Just simply flow dynamics as the K series heads flow so well.

It's akin to putting a single GTX2871 on a LS1 or 13BREW. It will be out of "flow" right off idle.

[S14rebuild]

10k makes my nissan sound like a civic....ill pass

[TheRealSy90]

I guess it didn't cross my mind that the turbo could come on TOO fast and be a problem with stock bottom end.

I wish precision still made the 5252 turbo. Maybe too small still..

Yeah, everything for the K swap seems priced reasonably but still super easy to hit 10 grand on a finished 400hp turbo/swap... Fml. Stick with a 2871r sr20 setup for half lol.

[PoorMans180SX]

I guess it didn't cross my mind that the turbo could come on TOO fast and be a problem with stock bottom end.

I wish precision still made the 5252 turbo. Maybe too small still..

Yeah, everything for the K swap seems priced reasonably but still super easy to hit 10 grand on a finished 400hp turbo/swap... Fml. Stick with a 2871r sr20 setup for half lol.

Yeah the 5858 is the smallest I would go to be honest. Something like a Borgwarner S257SXE in a 1.00 housing would also be pretty awesome. The smallest efr I would run would be 7163. Xonarotor also makes a 6157s that might be cool.

Half the cost for half the powerband :2f2f::coolugh:

[RalliartRsX]

^^ Yeah, IMHO "oh man, it doesn't make x amount of HP! Or doesn't bolt in!" is very 1 dimensional. A EFR 7163 on paper making 400HP sounds comparable to a DET at the same level from strictly a HP standpoint. However, boost recovery, drivability, reliability (lower PR for same power) etc all factor into why a VET with a 7163 is light years better than a bog standard DET with a 2871 although they both technically make the same power :D

Same can be said for a K series into a 240. It's not just about power or being able to be bolted up :D

Sorry TheReal, not trying to be a dick, just my opinion :)

K series the world!!!

[tb13]

Yeah the 5858 is the smallest I would go to be honest. Something like a Borgwarner S257SXE in a 1.00 housing would also be pretty awesome. The smallest efr I would run would be 7163. Xonarotor also makes a 6157s that might be cool.

Half the cost for half the powerband :2f2f::coolugh:

An S257SXE/K24 would be an incredible bang for the buck combo.

[jedi03]

with the civic comment...what is the current civic engine code? a lot of those are factory turbo...

[e1_griego]

Looking through the kit I don't see a provision for power steering -- presumably like the K miata swaps you have to go EPS?

[RalliartRsX]

The PS and all the accessories run on a single belt so it's all on the same side.

[ixfxi]

10k makes my nissan sound like a civic....ill pass

imo, k-engine fitment is pretty terrible on an s-chassis

funny how in the mid to late 90s, everyone was all about vtak...

then 2000 everyone jumped ship to rwd

we've gone full circle, vtac and rwd combined. yuck.

[PoorMans180SX]

The PS and all the accessories run on a single belt so it's all on the same side.

Yeah, not sure how that's all going to work. I believe things need to get moved around to make room for the oil pan, so I don't know if they've worked out a way to keep the hydraulic PS. The TF-works S14 definitely runs EPS, which is really freakin' cool, but definitely an added cost/labor.

[e1_griego]

That's what I figured, and that's the K-Miata answer, too.

[gbaby2089]

with the civic comment...what is the current civic engine code? a lot of those are factory turbo...

Only the Type R is a K-series, the K20C1. Well, and the base model NA Civics are K.

Other Civics are L-series IIRC.

RIP affordable K-series for Honda people.

[PoorMans180SX]

-iqNUrF1IaE

[RalliartRsX]

You know, doing the math and with the swaps I have done in the past, a non native engine swap for 8-12K to get a reliable 450WHP is not terrible all said and done. You can shave off a few and get it all done for 10K but it's not terrible.

I do not want to look into what my VET/JK41 into my Z32 cost lol!

[BryanSayWhat]

we've gone full circle, vtac and rwd combined. yuck.If Honda made the Prelude RWD I'd be down with that. I'm, also a little too big for an S2K (6'3"), or I'd probably own one.

I've been undecided in my swap choice for almost 8yrs... I originally wanted to go SR (DET), but held off after hearing, so many horror stories of them not lasting. A lot of those stories could of been "Operator Error", or lack of appropriate maintenance (during and after the swap), but It's still unsettling knowing you can spend 6-7k on a SR Swap and the thing not last/ be reliable. Even if you are successful for that price, your going to be making what about 260-280whp safely?

Even if the K series turbo swap cost about 10K-ish It's still a pretty reasonable price for 4XXwhp on a motor that can be replaced readily without diving into the internals. (RalliartRsX beat me to it)

I will admit that the SR is still an attractive option for me, because of the fitment and A/C, though. lol

[TheRealSy90]

I think for a street car that can easily retain heat/ac, the SR still remains the go-to. Although for a drift/race car build I can see the draw to the K series swap.

[deolio]

if you're looking at the price of the swap solely in monetary value, you're only looking at half of the picture.

[slider2828]

I think stewart leask is designing and tigging for them on this?

[ixfxi]

I've been undecided in my swap choice for almost 8yrs... I originally wanted to go SR (DET), but held off after hearing, so many horror stories of them not lasting.

the only SRs that dont last are the ones built by idiots

no offense because I like speed academy, but peter using the abrasive disc on the top of the block to remove left over head gasket was completely idiotic. they often get themselves into "user error" problems by doing stupid, amateur, penny pinching maneuvers. this is why you're best leaving things to professionals

i have NEVER had a failure with my SR. its one of the best engines ever. anyone saying different doesnt know what the fuck hes talking about.

[BryanSayWhat]

^^ For sure. That's why I over the years I've pretty much come to the conclusion that a nice stock-ish SR20DET swap is going to cost me about 6-7K vs. the 4-5K (and even less) others do. (I'd still have less in my car vs. a comparable JDM import)

Ideally, I'd want to find a good complete swap and replace everything that's not under the valve cover, with as many brand new OEM parts, or quality JDM upgraded items possible... Still taking a gamble with a used old engine.

It's also hard deciding to go with a newer S15/ S14 DET (possible VTC problems?), or going Red/ Black top (engine is going into an S13). Stock Spec-R power would be nice and almost seems like the logical choice these days?

Or, at this point do you just count on getting any SR20DET completely rebuilt? Which then (imo) makes a decent case for going turbo K-series... lol

[Def]

^^ Yeah, IMHO "oh man, it doesn't make x amount of HP! Or doesn't bolt in!" is very 1 dimensional. A EFR 7163 on paper making 400HP sounds comparable to a DET at the same level from strictly a HP standpoint. However, boost recovery, drivability, reliability (lower PR for same power) etc all factor into why a VET with a 7163 is light years better than a bog standard DET with a 2871 although they both technically make the same power :D

Same can be said for a K series into a 240. It's not just about power or being able to be bolted up :D

Sorry TheReal, not trying to be a dick, just my opinion :)

K series the world!!!

Brah... no way in the world an EFR 7163 VET with decent cams is going to only make 400 rwhp, unless you want to run it at 14-15 psi. The EFR 7163 will stomp all over a 2871R DET everywhere, which is what you're saying, but there is also a pretty large power difference. I'd guesstimate at about 30-60 rwhp up top easy, depending on the size of the turbo and its ability to keep up with the VET head.


As for a K swap in an S-chassis... I love me some S-chassis goodness, but I'm totally getting an S2000 if I want some RWD VTEC fun for these sorts of prices.


Plus K20/K24s are showing themselves to have oiling issues in a longitudinal setup. They act like they want a deep as hell oil pan, and then the engine just doesn't fit in many cars. Sure, these tiny oil pans to fit them in a RWD setup are fine for a street/drag setup, but start pulling some Gs and your engine is toast.

[Def]

the only SRs that dont last are the ones built by idiots

no offense because I like speed academy, but peter using the abrasive disc on the top of the block to remove left over head gasket was completely idiotic. they often get themselves into "user error" problems by doing stupid, amateur, penny pinching maneuvers. this is why you're best leaving things to professionals

i have NEVER had a failure with my SR. its one of the best engines ever. anyone saying different doesnt know what the fuck hes talking about.

Agreed on the Speed Academy guys. I love their channel, but sometimes I really struggle with some stupid shit they do. Like, they've been modding cars long enough to know some of these basics that end up biting them in the ass when they go past basic bolt-ons (which is sadly where they have been tending to stay lately).


My SRs put up with hell. I had a few failures on them overtime, but I'm honestly shocked they were as reliable as they were. They can generally take one hell of a beating on the street, and as long as you don't go stupid on the power/heat at the track, they also take it like a champ.

[ixfxi]

As for a K swap in an S-chassis... I love me some S-chassis goodness, but I'm totally getting an S2000 if I want some RWD VTEC fun for these sorts of prices.

Plus K20/K24s are showing themselves to have oiling issues in a longitudinal setup. They act like they want a deep as hell oil pan, and then the engine just doesn't fit in many cars. Sure, these tiny oil pans to fit them in a RWD setup are fine for a street/drag setup, but start pulling some Gs and your engine is toast.

and at that point, it would make sense to spend bigger bucks fitting a dry sump conversion - if and whoever makes that. I dont know because I dont care, but im sure it exists.


Agreed on the Speed Academy guys. I love their channel, but sometimes I really struggle with some stupid shit they do. Like, they've been modding cars long enough to know some of these basics that end up biting them in the ass when they go past basic bolt-ons (which is sadly where they have been tending to stay lately).

My SRs put up with hell. I had a few failures on them overtime, but I'm honestly shocked they were as reliable as they were. They can generally take one hell of a beating on the street, and as long as you don't go stupid on the power/heat at the track, they also take it like a champ.

Its a generational thing. Next gen of enthusiasts are looking for something new or to be different, but often lose sight of what is designed to work in a chassis.

We're damn near being in 2020. If you're going to install an SR in your car, take it to the machine shop and have it cleaned up and refreshed. Simple as that. Dont fuck with 30 year old cars unless you have the money to burn in restoration.

[RalliartRsX]

Def you stated what I wanted to much more eloquently :)

In terms of the oiling issues I know there has been a pan with the proper baffles developed for this specific situation and a few folks run them (oil travelling up the timing cover). Andy Hollis in the k swap miata with 285 purple crack on "stock" fenders had a much more extreme scenario at COTA......and we all know how COTA eats bearings due to long sweepers. I'll have to check back with his build thread but I recall him resolving this very issue a year or so ago with a properly baffled pan.

Either way, there is a solution. I've also never had an issue with any of my SR on track apart from things that were self inflicted. A majority of the failures are from drifters and them rapping the limiter and then doing dumb shit like installing stoppers and then blaming the engine. THAT is where a majority of the failures exist.....the rest are from folks who decide that torque and clearance specs and the fsm are not to be followed

[TheRealSy90]

Plus K20/K24s are showing themselves to have oiling issues in a longitudinal setup. They act like they want a deep as hell oil pan, and then the engine just doesn't fit in many cars. Sure, these tiny oil pans to fit them in a RWD setup are fine for a street/drag setup, but start pulling some Gs and your engine is toast.

The Touge Factory oil pan is like an 8 quart capacity.

[RalliartRsX]

^^ capacity not the only issue. Proper baffling is also a key issue which needs to be addressed.

[PoorMans180SX]

I think stewart leask is designing and tigging for them on this?

Not sure about the design work, but they have a guy in-house that welds the pans and valvecovers, he does great work. Instagram is @skinny__d

I think for a street car that can easily retain heat/ac, the SR still remains the go-to. Although for a drift/race car build I can see the draw to the K series swap.

This makes a lot of sense to me.



As for a K swap in an S-chassis... I love me some S-chassis goodness, but I'm totally getting an S2000 if I want some RWD VTEC fun for these sorts of prices.

Plus K20/K24s are showing themselves to have oiling issues in a longitudinal setup. They act like they want a deep as hell oil pan, and then the engine just doesn't fit in many cars. Sure, these tiny oil pans to fit them in a RWD setup are fine for a street/drag setup, but start pulling some Gs and your engine is toast.

You make a good point about picking up an S2000, it definitely becomes an alternative option if you're looking at turbo K-swap prices.

The Touge Factory oil pan is like an 8 quart capacity.

Yeah if the pan maintains oil pressure on a car with 315's all the way around and some decent aero, I think it'll do well on most people's.

and at that point, it would make sense to spend bigger bucks fitting a dry sump conversion - if and whoever makes that. I dont know because I dont care, but im sure it exists.

Its a generational thing. Next gen of enthusiasts are looking for something new or to be different, but often lose sight of what is designed to work in a chassis.

We're damn near being in 2020. If you're going to install an SR in your car, take it to the machine shop and have it cleaned up and refreshed. Simple as that. Dont fuck with 30 year old cars unless you have the money to burn in restoration.

Dailey Engineering makes dry sump setups for the K.

While I agree with your "do it right or not at all" mentality, There's no doubt the K series is superior to the SR in quite a few ways. I do think the SR20 is more aesthetic and depending on what they're doing with the car and their level of mechanical skill and knowledge it makes sense for some people. I know lots of old guys that will claim the SBC is the best engine ever because they've never blown one up, but we all know that SBC's are boat anchors.

[inferno s14]

if your directed sport is Zig Zagging around a racetrack on a super lightweight RWD Silvia, the k motor is Beast.
If you wanna be different and put this on a full weight S14 and hit the freeway - goodbye see you later - you will get smoked.
Even with a 4.8 final on a closed ratio gearbox @ 9500 rpm on 4th gear doing 110 is not fun.
cool but nahhh.

why i went 2j For the bread.

[RalliartRsX]

While I agree with your "do it right or not at all" mentality, There's no doubt the K series is superior to the SR in quite a few ways. I do think the SR20 is more aesthetic and depending on what they're doing with the car and their level of mechanical skill and knowledge it makes sense for some people. I know lots of old guys that will claim the SBC is the best engine ever because they've never blown one up, but we all know that SBC's are boat anchors.

A VET is not far off from a K series in terms of power density and overall drivability, etc. Yes, a tad more upfront cost, but overall both packages will deliver in the sub 450WHP reliably all day as long as you keep both cool. However, we are comparing an engine that has had 15 years to improve on the design of the B-series......The last VE rolled off the production floor some 10+ years ago.

P.S There is no point in even discussing the DET in the same breath. IMHO at this price point, this should be strictly a VET to K series comparison.

[PoorMans180SX]

A VET is not far off from a K series in terms of power density and overall drivability, etc. Yes, a tad more upfront cost, but overall both packages will deliver in the sub 450WHP reliably all day as long as you keep both cool. However, we are comparing an engine that has had 15 years to improve on the design of the B-series......The last VE rolled off the production floor some 10+ years ago.

P.S There is no point in even discussing the DET in the same breath. IMHO at this price point, this should be strictly a VET to K series comparison.

True True. It does however, get shit on in the displacement category. You can put cams in a bone stock K24 and make 270whp and 200+ lb/ft of torque. I'd say the K24 has a bit more potential than the VE.

[e30gangsta]

Ported k series heads flow some serious cfm. More than vet heads I would assume.

[RalliartRsX]

True True. It does however, get shit on in the displacement category. You can put cams in a bone stock K24 and make 270whp and 200+ lb/ft of torque. I'd say the K24 has a bit more potential than the VE.

NO replacement right :)

I am with ya on that. I think they have K24s revving reliably all day with a set of cams to 8500. I approve :)

[ixfxi]

Dailey Engineering makes dry sump setups for the K.

While I agree with your "do it right or not at all" mentality, There's no doubt the K series is superior to the SR in quite a few ways. I do think the SR20 is more aesthetic and depending on what they're doing with the car and their level of mechanical skill and knowledge it makes sense for some people.

yeah but if you're talking dry sump, you're already above the budget of most broke bastards doing this swap. look at speed academy and how they used a k series motor that they picked up for what, 500 bucks?

maybe im just getting too old for this shit, but too often people get stuck on the technical aspects of how XXXX modern engine is sooo much powerful/faster/etc... they jump through all these hoops to make it fit and work properly. but in the end, its either poorly executed or not fully functional or just not fully refined.

me personally, i'm all about things being period correct and working 100% as intended back when the car was relatively new. i dont mind having less power, as long as all the car looks like whats in my 180sx / silvia catalogs, im happy. i get my parts from nissan, not chevy, honda or toyota. but i get it, everyone wants to experiment with the latest and greatest.

[TheRealSy90]

^^ capacity not the only issue. Proper baffling is also a key issue which needs to be addressed.

I was mainly commenting on his "tiny oil pan" statement. 8 quarts isn't tiny by a long shot lol. Also they developed it on a time attack car I think it will be sufficient for 99% of people.

[jedi03]

with the k motors have they gone to a closed or semi closed deck? if not then the continued risk of cylinder warp/walk still exists...

[RalliartRsX]

with the k motors have they gone to a closed or semi closed deck? if not then the continued risk of cylinder warp/walk still exists...

They are "open deck" and able to make 1000 WHP+. The new designed block, with the integrated crank mains/gurney/ keep cylinder distortion to a minimum.

[tuzzio]

they jump through all these hoops to make it fit and work properly. but in the end, its either poorly executed or not fully functional or just not fully refined.

I actually back this really hard, and agree with it.

A lot of good points and conversation in this thread. And nobody is mad...at eachother....yet (afterall, its zilvia.)

That being said. In my opinion for my application and how I street my car, I think apples to apples, if my car was a "blank" canvas again, I'd likely go with the k-swap over my KA. I love my KA and have no plans to switch power plants, but it's hard to say I don't have an expensive KA, and i think spending X amount on my KA set up, to spend a little more on a functional K24 set up with more potential in areas I like, wouldn't bother me.

For someone who wants a 300whp car, I don't think this is the swap for them unless they want to have something slightly less popular than an SR or a KA-T. However, with these kits coming out, you know other manufacturers will jump on the band wagon (lets take bets on how long it takes for ISR to develop a swap kit) within the next 5 years, I almost imagine these will be the next super common swap. 5 years ago there wasn't that many JZ powered S-chassis, now EVERYONE is doing it.

[foreverdeath]

Yeah the 5858 is the smallest I would go to be honest. Something like a Borgwarner S257SXE in a 1.00 housing would also be pretty awesome. The smallest efr I would run would be 7163. Xonarotor also makes a 6157s that might be cool.



Half the cost for half the powerband :2f2f::coolugh:I have a S257SXE 1.00A/R twin scroll on my k24a2 s13 and its nuts anything more then just cruising Above 3k and I'm in boost. I think a bigger housing would be better drivin it on the street its ether slow in the low revs or in boost and VTEC(3200rpm) scootn.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191128/09d5fd881df5a627ed97f3ff36ca4cea.jpg

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[ixfxi]

people actually want cars like that? looks like a half finished science experiment

[thegr8one013]

The Kseries engines are a great engine. theyre very cheap and there are so many aftermarket parts avaliable for them, and most importantly they put out great power in stock form. the best part about these engines is the vtec. You can have very wild cams and still be able to idle like a stock motor.

My two concerns with this swap are:
1. everyone lowers theyre car and it effects roll center. now add that spacer (which is thin but still effecting roll center) you just made it worse.

2. After you add everything up its the same cost as installing a ls1 swap. You have a stock motor with twice the displacement and twice the torque. I spent $2500 in parts to put my $5000 stock 2004 gto swap. this was many years ago, so i am pretty sure the cost of a ls1 motor/ trans setup is much cheaper..

[foreverdeath]

You don't have to space down the subframe, or atleast I didnt with mine. They added the spacer to help with two things. First old pan to rack bracket clearance. To get the motor low enough to have the crank at the same level as a KA or SR the oil plan flange must nearly sit on the passenger rack bracket. I modded my subframe and passenger rack bracket to make the bracket as low profile as possable without moving my rack. Secondly the K24 is it tall to fit under the hood without notching the vavle cover or lowering the subframe. Even modding my subframe and a custom oil pan I only got the front of the vavle cover to be a few mm above the hood skin.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191129/3bca7d4731489d3ff49c37150f26864e.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191129/975b79f1d04a59356c3da8b4414ea1a2.jpg

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[Kingtal0n]

I like the engine

as someone said above, the cost in dollars is only fraction of true cost.

Average turbo 'swaps' are 10 to 20k regardless of what drivetrain chosen.


The devil is in the details. Every swap has nit-pick bullshit to deal with that, if you don't know or don't care or can't tell (not a great mechanic/tuner) it will constantly be down, blowing engines, leaking, whatever, just from stupid things happening.

In other words, I think am saying that it doesn't matter what engine you choose, as long as you are good mechanically and capable tuning, your expectations will be accurate and the vehicle will maintain it's inherent value and be fun to drive.

happy swapping

[PoorMans180SX]

I have a S257SXE 1.00A/R twin scroll on my k24a2 s13 and its nuts anything more then just cruising Above 3k and I'm in boost. I think a bigger housing would be better drivin it on the street its ether slow in the low revs or in boost and VTEC(3200rpm) scootn.



This is cool! Ever had it on the dyno? I'd love to see that torque curve. It's hard to find people running these turbos and I think they're really underrated.

You don't have to space down the subframe, or atleast I didnt with mine. They added the spacer to help with two things. First old pan to rack bracket clearance. To get the motor low enough to have the crank at the same level as a KA or SR the oil plan flange must nearly sit on the passenger rack bracket. I modded my subframe and passenger rack bracket to make the bracket as low profile as possable without moving my rack. Secondly the K24 is it tall to fit under the hood without notching the vavle cover or lowering the subframe. Even modding my subframe and a custom oil pan I only got the front of the vavle cover to be a few mm above the hood skin.



Yes, The TF-works kit is as far back and as far down as you can go. You can't even fit a vent filter on the rear valve cover nipple, TF cuts that off and welds that closed. I think the spacers are only for people running unmodified hoods.
https://www.tf-works.com/faq-kswap/

[PoorMans180SX]

The Kseries engines are a great engine. theyre very cheap and there are so many aftermarket parts avaliable for them, and most importantly they put out great power in stock form. the best part about these engines is the vtec. You can have very wild cams and still be able to idle like a stock motor.

My two concerns with this swap are:
1. everyone lowers theyre car and it effects roll center. now add that spacer (which is thin but still effecting roll center) you just made it worse.

2. After you add everything up its the same cost as installing a ls1 swap. You have a stock motor with twice the displacement and twice the torque. I spent $2500 in parts to put my $5000 stock 2004 gto swap. this was many years ago, so i am pretty sure the cost of a ls1 motor/ trans setup is much cheaper.

1. Yes it will. Don't run the spacers and do something else with the hood.

2. LS1 dropouts still cost about the same, popularity has kept costs high. There are pros and cons to everything, and we all know that LS's have issues. For some people/applications a turbo K-series presents a better powerband or package.

[tuzzio]

Some seriously good info in that link. Props to them for that

[foreverdeath]

This is cool! Ever had it on the dyno? I'd love to see that torque curve. It's hard to find people running these turbos and I think they're really underrated.



Yes, The TF-works kit is as far back and as far down as you can go. You can't even fit a vent filter on the rear valve cover nipple, TF cuts that off and welds that closed. I think the spacers are only for people running unmodified hoods.
https://www.tf-works.com/faq-kswap/Yes but I dont like the power drop off after 6k. I hope to clean it up with porting my intake and gasket matching. Soon I'll go back for a retune. I will say on 14 and e85 245/45r17s were struggling in 3rd...

I cant find the pic right now but I belive it's in my build thread on here. I belive it was only on pump and 10psi

It seems like they got theres alil further back from reading. I got mine in the OE la postion. Using a cd009 the KA cd009 shift fit. And I only had to trim a little bit if the back side of the shifter hole. I wonder how that affects k24 upper coolant housings and the lower/tstat. As each runs into either the driver mount or gets close to the firewall.

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[PoorMans180SX]

nuuUD6SIQ3g

[foreverdeath]

I was looking at TFs turbo manifold to bad its only vband so I can't run my borg on it but, but I noticed something very interesting. To get the more so far back with cutting the subframe, where I opted to cut of the seam and TIG it shut, they put the pick up front of the oil pump. So the pan actully protudes infront of the motor.
https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-43370/images/stencil/original/products/41484/144329/oilpickup__75525.1574192180.jpg?c=2

[PoorMans180SX]

I was looking at TFs turbo manifold to bad its only vband so I can't run my borg on it but, but I noticed something very interesting. To get the more so far back with cutting the subframe, where I opted to cut of the seam and TIG it shut, they put the pick up front of the oil pump. So the pan actully protudes infront of the motor.

Correct. Also, there is a v-band turbine housing available for your turbo, but you’d probably lose the same kinda response as moving to the big twin-scroll housing.

[foreverdeath]

I couldnt find one for the s200 series but do for the similar sized EFR. I'm not tryn to move to the manifold persay. But am looking at redesigning mine so a s300 or larger frame EFR wont leave the hood. Also being my the first manifold I've made I dont give it a long life expectancy, it really was only intended to get the same going anyways.

I dont wana loss twin scroll and my manifold runners are equal length within ~2% when I designed it in inventor.

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[PoorMans180SX]

I dont wana loss twin scroll and my manifold runners are equal length within ~2% when I designed it in inventor.

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Ahhhh makes sense why yours sounds good!

[foreverdeath]

Ahhhh makes sense why yours sounds good!I really need to remove the 1st resonator so it actully make it sing more then just turbo spool and dual 44mm wastegate dump. Once that cat back vband fell off and it was musical but way too loud dumping under the passenger seat to be on the street. The gaurds at the ECP for my ship could hear me start it up and RIP on it from about 1/2mi away.

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[Slick Vick]

Please continue this thread, very knowledgeable material!!!

On that note, has anyone done a full swap meaning all the bells and whistles ( AC/PS, etc). I am highly interested in this swap since currently I am driving around a bare bones 240. I would love to see if you can turbo this motor plus have all the fancy amenities while still having a dependable daily.

[foreverdeath]

I have PS on mine using the honda pump. AC will be a challenge ether mount it on the exhaust side in a NA setup. Or leave the AC in the factory location, which might cut into the oil pan designs of TF or mine and run electric PS.

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[Slick Vick]

I have PS on mine using the honda pump. AC will be a challenge ether mount it on the exhaust side in a NA setup. Or leave the AC in the factory location, which might cut into the oil pan designs of TF or mine and run electric PS.

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Doesn't sound bad, in terms of reliability how is it so far? Have you noticed any weird kinks? I also have read somewhere that handling changes due to the motor being farther back, have you noticed this?

[RalliartRsX]

^^ Doubt the engine is that much further back in comparison to a SR considering the coolant port and several other accessories on that "side" of the engine.

[foreverdeath]

Doesn't sound bad, in terms of reliability how is it so far? Have you noticed any weird kinks? I also have read somewhere that handling changes due to the motor being farther back, have you noticed this?Check out my build thread. It sits in the factory KA/SR location, TF may have theres an inch further back... not much room to shift it back really. Cant beat honda for reliability. No kinks really just engineering/fitment challenges. I did have to replace the engine when I slightly bent a rod with 13.5psi on e85 tho...

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[Slick Vick]

Check out my build thread. It sits in the factory KA/SR location, TF may have theres an inch further back... not much room to shift it back really. Cant beat honda for reliability. No kinks really just engineering/fitment challenges. I did have to replace the engine when I slightly bent a rod with 13.5psi on e85 tho...

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Dude that build is a work of love :boink:
Have you considered going all motor? Check these guys motor build out. http://blog.wiseco.com/the-500-horsepower-naturally-aspirated-k24-engine-by-4piston
I know, I know those dudes used methanol and lots of custom parts but still sick none the less. Gives hope to a possible all motor build.

[Def]

The Touge Factory oil pan is like an 8 quart capacity.

It's not a question of volume, but one of dimensions and oil control. A shallow pan that's wide has poor oil control, and you need a really good baffle setup to keep that around a submerged pickup.

Ideally we'd all have small diameter, really deep oil pans. You'd get good oil aeration (lots of head pressure to bottom of pan), and you could take ridiculous lateral/longitudinal G's before uncovering the pickup.

But that's impossible to package, so we compromise on smaller factory sumps and try to add baffles to control the oil a little.

Obviously with how many people have smoked K motors in a RWD longitudinal layout, they've got some real problems with oil control in the space provided.

[foreverdeath]

Dude that build is a work of love :boink:

Have you considered going all motor? Check these guys motor build out. http://blog.wiseco.com/the-500-horsepower-naturally-aspirated-k24-engine-by-4piston

I know, I know those dudes used methanol and lots of custom parts but still sick none the less. Gives hope to a possible all motor build.
It is and thank you.

Not really. I think NA for a drift car unless you got a big wallet asks for an LS and I'm against them cause of weight and balance. Yes, with porting, cams, a good head, 3 inch exhaust, and 9-10,000rpm capable block 400s is achievable on e85. Also to note their 500hp motor is a 2.7l with aluminum rods which would require deep pockets to build an rebuild every season. It makes good power 5k but I doubt it would be street able like a turbo car.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191211/3a5c1a389430a61e0508260447ef86d5.jpg

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[RalliartRsX]

Also Im almost 100% certain thier 500hp 4 banger is on a fairly exotic fuel

Jamie Marsh.made.similar power and I recall he was on a nitro methane mix or something along those lines

[PoorMans180SX]

It's not a question of volume, but one of dimensions and oil control. A shallow pan that's wide has poor oil control, and you need a really good baffle setup to keep that around a submerged pickup.

Obviously with how many people have smoked K motors in a RWD longitudinal layout, they've got some real problems with oil control in the space provided.

Agreed. It seems they have this sorted with the latest pan design, but we shall see. They're going to continue testing and running the car on track.

Dude that build is a work of love :boink:
Have you considered going all motor? Check these guys motor build out. http://blog.wiseco.com/the-500-horsepower-naturally-aspirated-k24-engine-by-4piston
I know, I know those dudes used methanol and lots of custom parts but still sick none the less. Gives hope to a possible all motor build.

Yeah, this really doesn't have much of an application outside of a drag race class-specific build. While it's very cool, it's not very practical for anyone without plenty of money to "waste"

You could definitely have around 300whp with a built NA K24, and you could run it on E85. I think would be a really fun setup if you really wanted the simplicity of an NA build. Anything past that and I think it makes a lot more sense to just use a turbocharger or supercharger.

Keep in mind that things like this could be developed for this application as well! I think this is really rad.

https://i.imgur.com/9pT1WiWh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/kWcuCw8h.png

[TheRealSy90]

Obviously with how many people have smoked K motors in a RWD longitudinal layout, they've got some real problems with oil control in the space provided.

I really hope Touge Factory wouldn't go through all the trouble of designing and fabricating the parts for this swap and sell an oil pan that isn't going to work and leads to everyone blowing their engines that uses it.

Now if they're still testing the oil pan on their car, they shouldn't be selling these pans to customers already without verifying they're going to work.

[foreverdeath]

I really hope Touge Factory wouldn't go through all the trouble of designing and fabricating the parts for this swap and sell an oil pan that isn't going to work and leads to everyone blowing their engines that uses it.

Now if they're still testing the oil pan on their car, they shouldn't be selling these pans to customers already without verifying they're going to work.

only time will tell. i cant say for them, but i know i haven't lost oil pressure yet. although i haven't been to the track with it yet with aggressive on/off ramps I've maintained pressure so far so i believe it is possible.

[PoorMans180SX]

I really hope Touge Factory wouldn't go through all the trouble of designing and fabricating the parts for this swap and sell an oil pan that isn't going to work and leads to everyone blowing their engines that uses it.

Now if they're still testing the oil pan on their car, they shouldn't be selling these pans to customers already without verifying they're going to work.

I mean, the car does have 285 NS-2R's all the way around and aero to match. I'm sure if it's good on that thing it'll be good on 99% of the builds it goes in.

[k00laid83]

I think it's awesome that Touge Factory is offering this kit! Way to go on the wiring PoorMans180sx!! I love seeing quality parts and quality work bro :bowrofl::bowrofl::bowdown::bowdown:

[Def]

I really hope Touge Factory wouldn't go through all the trouble of designing and fabricating the parts for this swap and sell an oil pan that isn't going to work and leads to everyone blowing their engines that uses it.

Now if they're still testing the oil pan on their car, they shouldn't be selling these pans to customers already without verifying they're going to work.

You act like they're some giant OEM with engineering and quality standards like Toyota or Honda... (not sure modern day Nissan has those things...)

It's a "speed shop" that has somebody who can make shapes in CAD and get them machined/fabricated. I'm sure they'll test the stuff to some degree, but let's be real on who TF is and what sort of process control and validation they're bringing to this product...

[signalpuke]

Neat.


I'm very interested in the true max limit on what the stock block can actually hold reliably. I see some people hit high numbers on the dyno but for how long.
D-Rob on K20A.org has a ton of daily drivers that he's dyno'd. From 450-800+ WHP. Bone stock engines for the most part, but he also did some elaborate tunes on built engines and superchargers. It's all in the tuning. The K-series engines are special because they have active cam phasing. It's like an adjustable cam gear controlled by the ECU that you can tune. This is why the K-series Honda engines have so much torque and can carry it to a higher RPM resulting in more HP. With boost, it's like having the perfect intake cam at every 100RPM for the boost and speed of the engine at that exact time. Honda calls it VTC. It's on the intake cam only. VTEC is for longer duration and higher lift for the valves.

I went more in depth to it here for the Supra guys, and linked back to a forum I used to Admin for more in depth explanation of how it all works.
https://www.supraforums.com/threads/turbo-matching-for-the-road-course-plotting-success.530737/page-40

Not all K-series engines have the same VTC and VTEC setups, so if you're actually curious about the limits per head, or engine differences in general, check out the FAQ/DIY compilation I put together here:
https://www.k20a.org/threads/diy-faq-%E2%98%86%E2%98%85%E2%98%86%E2%98%85%E2%98%86%E2%9 8%85%E2%98%86%E2%98%85-diy-faq-%E2%98%85%E2%98%86%E2%98%85%E2%98%86%E2%98%85%E2%9 8%86%E2%98%85%E2%98%86-diy-faq.53589/

with the k motors have they gone to a closed or semi closed deck? if not then the continued risk of cylinder warp/walk still exists...
They're not 30 year old D-series designs. The biggest issue for road course/auto-x/drifting is going to be oil related, and all that requires is a baffle. The capacity of the OEM oil pan isn't an issue.

[tuzzio]

[QUOTE=signalpuke;6367510]check out the FAQ/DIY compilation I put together here:
https://www.k20a.org/threads/diy-faq-%E2%98%86%E2%98%85%E2%98%86%E2%98%85%E2%98%86%E2%9 8%85%E2%98%86%E2%98%85-diy-faq-%E2%98%85%E2%98%86%E2%98%85%E2%98%86%E2%98%85%E2%9 8%86%E2%98%85%E2%98%86-diy-faq.53589/
/QUOTE]

The internet needs more stuff like this. I don't own or likely won't own a K-series, and nerds like me still read / love this shit.

[signalpuke]

The internet needs more stuff like this. I don't own or likely won't own a K-series, and nerds like me still read / love this shit.

I agree. Unfortunately, when Vertical Scope bought the forum they ruined it by switching from VBulletin to XenForo. Now it's pretty dead.
This is a link to the forced induction section though, so people can search around in there. https://www.k20a.org/forums/forced-induction-and-nitrous-k-series-discussion.18/
Basically if you're planning on anything less than 700hp the only thing you need to upgrade are valve springs and retainers, and injectors that will flow enough of whatever fuel you choose to use. The engines you're going to want are the K20A2, K20Z3, or K24A2, as they have the best internals. There are differences like throttle body (DBW on the Z3) and different intake manifolds.

[foreverdeath]

I agree. Unfortunately, when Vertical Scope bought the forum they ruined it by switching from VBulletin to XenForo. Now it's pretty dead.
This is a link to the forced induction section though, so people can search around in there. https://www.k20a.org/forums/forced-induction-and-nitrous-k-series-discussion.18/
Basically if you're planning on anything less than 700hp the only thing you need to upgrade are valve springs and retainers, and injectors that will flow enough of whatever fuel you choose to use. The engines you're going to want are the K20A2, K20Z3, or K24A2, as they have the best internals. There are differences like throttle body (DBW on the Z3) and different intake manifolds.Seriously up to 700hp? I was sad when my first k24a2 went at ~400hp at 14psi on e85. It just slightly tweaked a rod thinking I was good up to 500whp. Is there a verified torque limit on stock rods cause that's were me and some other people thing I went wrong cause I was probably past 350ftlbs.

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[signalpuke]

Seriously up to 700hp? I was sad when my first k24a2 went at ~400hp at 14psi on e85. It just slightly tweaked a rod thinking I was good up to 500whp. Is there a verified torque limit on stock rods cause that's were me and some other people thing I went wrong cause I was probably past 350ftlbs.

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It's all in the tuning. A lot of tuners will just tune WOT and not bother tuning each VTC table on both VTEC tables, not to mention part throttle. Customers also don't want to pay for good tuning either. Could have also been due to a sensor failure. I grenaded an engine because the O2 sensor failed.
Normal car, you just tune one table for WOT.
For the K-series, you have to tune 12 (VTC 0°, 10°, 20°, 30°, 40°, 50° for both non-VTEC and VTEC). That's just for WOT because at WOT the ECU is in openloop.
Tuning part throttle closed loop tables takes longer, but the tables are interpolated and you can use averaging to speed up the process.
Tuning 0° VTC is important because that's what the OEM ECU (with K-pro) will use if you throw a code and are restricted to limp mode.
Hondata has a recommended process on their site if memory serves.

EDIT
Yes, they still have it up. From my post on SF
If you are interested in learning how the VTC/VVTi tuning is done you can watch the videos here on Hondata's website
http://www.hondata.com/techk-protraining.html


Further reading on how VTC/VVTi work can be read here:

Good break down of how the engine and tuning software defines VTC.
http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=14642

I broke down the Honda VTC system here, and explained how it affects the compression ratio of the motor.
http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=30690

[foreverdeath]

I'm running haltech witch doesnt allow for 12 tables. I'm running 6 tables(0, 10, 20...50) then vtec is any rpm above 3199. My tuner solely adjusted WOT but I adjusted fuel to match target AFRs and left ignition timing stock.

My theory of what when wrong tho is when I enabled flex feul the it was adding 3 degrees down low and the default map and put me past the torque limit of the rods.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191231/b872ac1a3d7ea7df5aab046c561c874e.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191231/808897df906abf06044ed7e24846c3b8.jpg

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[signalpuke]

I left ignition timing stock.

That's what blew your motor. My brother tunes a lot, all different ECUs and setups, and he said his rule of thumb is 2° retarded per psi.

[foreverdeath]

We left it stock outa boost only pulling timing in vaccum outa vtec. Timing was pulled in boost and the runner stopped at 12psi on pump cause he didnt like how noisy the motor was.

Then for adding e85 I pulled 1 deg per 2 psi past 12psi on the main map and turned on flex fuel. I was tunning e85 fuel myself and was gonna go in to get timing worked out. At 13.5 psi the injectors where maxed nearing 92% and I stopped there. I wasnt getting any knock so I assumed the 3 to 1 degree timing (default haltech map cut down by 60% iirc) added for flex fuel was fine. After about week the rod bent and I got knock.

I tunned the fuel my self cuase my tunner doesnt like tuning all the individual cam angles. He tells me I do need cam angle maps for both fuel and ign. I've been thinking about taking it to someone else.

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[jedi03]

ya take it elsewhere, someone who doesn't want to do a complete tune doesn't care...both tunes I have done they checked full RPM range and under light and heavy throttle, then double checked everything was good all the way through to ensure there was no knock, afrs were good etc...

[Def]

At the very least he should have done WOT sweeps at different locked cam angles to at least ensure that's tuned across a couple of different boost levels. Partial throttle VCT tuning is pretty easy to do on the street and near impossible on a non-load bearing dyno, so I can see how a tuner would recommend doing the low load stuff on the street where it's very easy and safe (or advocate that he'll do it via street tuning for a fee that is less than full on dyno rental).

Now, if someone only wants a completely tuned turbo VCT/VTEC engine tuned for like $200-300, then obviously that's going to be some best guesses on VCT angles, and tuning off VTEC and on VTEC at a couple of boost levels with at best some quick smoothing between it. And hopefully the engine will go down to idle well and not drive like complete crap at partial throttle...

[foreverdeath]

I was confident doing all but boost ignition tables. I let my tuner do the final WOT runs and figure out the cam angles. It just weird how he thinks k series only needs one fuel and ign map. I later extrapolated the fuel maps to fill the gaps for better drivability. In theory if the VTC action was instant and always at the target angle I could see it but it never is. I could never find any info on how VTC effects ignition timing which involves effective compression as cylinder filling is dynamic with VTC.

Once I get some money together I'll go back to have individual cam tables tunned on pump then back again for e85.

The more I think about it was safe but never optimal the way he running it and was being stupid when I can to adding timing with e85. I never saw knock but I think I just over came the torque of factory rods. Next tune I will limit to 350ftlbs.

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[Def]

It's very easy to smoke stuff by passing MBT on E85, since it won't knock like pump gas. You generate a ton more cylinder pressure when you push your peak combustion pressure prior to or right around TDC. Normally it's around 15-20 deg after TDC so that your cylinder volume is rapidly expanding and you don't do a bunch of negative work pushing down on the piston when it's still coming up.

So your cylinder pressures could have been really high for the torque output of the engine. I've seen a lot of 4G63 guys do this since they like to run crazy boost and timing to put up high dyno numbers. If you get someone used to pump gas tuning, that then goes to E85 and keeps being amazed at how much crazy timing they can add in, well, usually the rods cry out since it's a gradual pressure input, not like a hard hitting knock that can break pistons.

Sounds like you got really aggressive with your timing in boost, and factory rods will let go quickly.

[foreverdeath]

It's very easy to smoke stuff by passing MBT on E85, since it won't knock like pump gas. You generate a ton more cylinder pressure when you push your peak combustion pressure prior to or right around TDC. Normally it's around 15-20 deg after TDC so that your cylinder volume is rapidly expanding and you don't do a bunch of negative work pushing down on the piston when it's still coming up.

So your cylinder pressures could have been really high for the torque output of the engine. I've seen a lot of 4G63 guys do this since they like to run crazy boost and timing to put up high dyno numbers. If you get someone used to pump gas tuning, that then goes to E85 and keeps being amazed at how much crazy timing they can add in, well, usually the rods cry out since it's a gradual pressure input, not like a hard hitting knock that can break pistons.

Sounds like you got really aggressive with your timing in boost, and factory rods will let go quickly.I got a week driving the piss outa it with amazing acceleration in 4th when it would finally stick. till I got a knock noise [emoji23] Still dont know what the actull knocking is coming from.

I've never been comfortable tuning timing and I went with this haltechs default on flex let at nearly 1bar. I think I cut this map by 30% this is default show here. Adding 9degrees in the center which is just before my turbo spooled and vtec kicks on. Max torque was at 4khttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200102/fc19d8b35419916e3db9d83ee01202d3.jpg

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[signalpuke]

Now, if someone only wants a completely tuned turbo VCT/VTEC engine tuned for like $200-300
Not going to happen. Not during working hours anyway. My brother does this for longtime or big customers that don't need the car for long periods of time, but more as a favor for saving him time in the shop. He will drive the car between the shop and his home while datalogging (after doing all the WOT stuff on the dyno and getting a rough tune on it) and then edit the tables when he's reached his destination. That's the only cost effective way for the customer to get a good partial throttle full tune unless they're willing to put in the time to do it theirself.
The good K-series tuners (and any other engine that has variable valve lift/duration AND cam phasing) either don't fully understand the dynamics of the engine and only tune drag queens, or they're very generous with their time and don't fully understand their own worth of knowledge.
Pretty sure the norm is the former, and the average customer would not pony up for the latter to pay them a fair wage for their time.

[PoorMans180SX]

It's very easy to smoke stuff by passing MBT on E85, since it won't knock like pump gas. You generate a ton more cylinder pressure when you push your peak combustion pressure prior to or right around TDC. Normally it's around 15-20 deg after TDC so that your cylinder volume is rapidly expanding and you don't do a bunch of negative work pushing down on the piston when it's still coming up.

So your cylinder pressures could have been really high for the torque output of the engine. I've seen a lot of 4G63 guys do this since they like to run crazy boost and timing to put up high dyno numbers. If you get someone used to pump gas tuning, that then goes to E85 and keeps being amazed at how much crazy timing they can add in, well, usually the rods cry out since it's a gradual pressure input, not like a hard hitting knock that can break pistons.

Sounds like you got really aggressive with your timing in boost, and factory rods will let go quickly.

This is the truth^. Whalen Speed sees a lot of sketchy timing maps from cars that are "tuned" on E85 because of this.

[dbeiler]

I was confident doing all but boost ignition tables. I let my tuner do the final WOT runs and figure out the cam angles. It just weird how he thinks k series only needs one fuel and ign map. I later extrapolated the fuel maps to fill the gaps for better drivability. In theory if the VTC action was instant and always at the target angle I could see it but it never is. I could never find any info on how VTC effects ignition timing which involves effective compression as cylinder filling is dynamic with VTC.

Once I get some money together I'll go back to have individual cam tables tunned on pump then back again for e85.

The more I think about it was safe but never optimal the way he running it and was being stupid when I can to adding timing with e85. I never saw knock but I think I just over came the torque of factory rods. Next tune I will limit to 350ftlbs.

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You can watch a live dyno tune of an NA bolt-on K20 if you purchase the "Practical Reflash Tuning" course from hpacademy.com. One of the course modules, "Step 5-A: Optimising Individual Cam Maps and Optimising Cam Target Map" has a live demonstration of the fuel and ignition timing adjustments being made via Hondata Kpro. I highly recommend the HPacademy courses. Worth every penny.

[signalpuke]

Since K20a is broken now, I'll post the dyno sheets from this thread here for you guys so you can get an idea of what to expect. Only saved some of them, from this list. You can click on the power numbers on this thread and be taken to the user's build thread if it exists:
https://www.k20a.org/threads/highest-hp-turbod-k-series.61634/

2. https://live.staticflickr.com/3661/3642720144_27f86c08a2_o.gif

3. https://live.staticflickr.com/3626/3641910469_23731c9166_o.gif

6. https://live.staticflickr.com/2429/3642732066_ff1659b706_o.jpg

8. https://live.staticflickr.com/3612/3642680236_36959b6535_o.jpg

9. https://live.staticflickr.com/3321/3642727580_bd89835fb3_o.png

10. https://live.staticflickr.com/3406/3642723394_e863796bd7_o.jpg

11. https://live.staticflickr.com/3645/3641883421_32ed669fc3_o.jpg

12. https://live.staticflickr.com/3398/3642713242_b41e91b044_o.jpg

[thegr8one013]

anybody here used their kit yet?

[jedi03]

those are ridiculous numbers and that looked like a stock internal setup?

[Initial Drift]

Man that harness is so fucking nice. I need to learn that skill.

[TheRealSy90]

So what's the powersteering solution for the K series? Someone going to make a bolt in column kit like the K-Miata column?

[foreverdeath]

The kseries power steering pump works well. Although its factory mounting location dosent work with most manifold options. I have a bracket in the works for it just haven't got a billet piece made. Need to judge desire before actually trying to make a run of parts as CNC is expensive for just a few pieces.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200225/e73964fa5bc70774b573734e85910a02.jpg

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[TheRealSy90]

I keep coming back to wanting this swap and selling my current vq35hr swap.

Just added up all the Togue Factory swap parts and other parts they recommend to change as well. 7,800 before shipping and still need an Engine, Transmission, Fuel supply components, Turbo, engine management and miscellaneous parts plus fabrication (exhaust etc.).

There's no way I could finish that swap for under 12 grand and thats still a STOCK engine internally. FML.

[foreverdeath]

I keep coming back to wanting this swap and selling my current vq35hr swap.

Just added up all the Togue Factory swap parts and other parts they recommend to change as well. 7,800 before shipping and still need an Engine, Transmission, Fuel supply components, Turbo, engine management and miscellaneous parts plus fabrication (exhaust etc.).

There's no way I could finish that swap for under 12 grand and thats still a STOCK engine internally. FML.

That's insane. They want 1050 just for a the drive shaft. Makes me really wish I had a garage to I could produce a my own swap kit. What components are you looking at some of their components are a deal like the 750$ oil pan setup but a 1050$ driveshaft is straight rape. The BMW ZF looks appealing for its size, price, and weight when compared to strength. But parts to make it work and other stuff that needs to be done (speed academy replacing bits) makes the CD00x trannys seem equal other then their size.

Also I do not recommend using a coolant adapter with out a swirl pot. Adding coolant at the top point of the system makes bleeding coolant instant vs seemingly impossible.

What parts are you looking at with the price?

[TheRealSy90]

That was with all of their K swap parts as well as their miscellaneous recommended upgrade parts like the oil pump, windage tray, chain tensioner and some gaskets etc.

[RalliartRsX]

As I said, give or take, any properly done swap (although 1050 is INSANE for a driveshaft) is netting you about 10K in itself.

I can have a VET in the 240 for cheaper knowing what I know today, but like every swap, they will nickle and dime you to no end. Wiring harness is several hundred. A proper ECU is 1K+. A driveshaft, think 3-500. Fab work; 5-1000. Etc etc.

That is what adds up.

[TheRealSy90]

Or stick with an sr20 for way less lol.

[RalliartRsX]

SRs pull a premium before race wars!

[foreverdeath]

Out of curiosity I went a priced out a swap thru TF to see what the cost would be and were one could save by deviating.

$1695 swap kit inc: oil pans setup, mounts, subframe spacers, bell housing adapter

-Note 9 their oil pan is not Tapped. I would recommend welding a steel bung to the timing chain tensioner cover, as with their setup the a bung on the oil pan would be below the oil line in the pan.

$1049 flywheel and throw out bearing setup
$597 ACT BMW ZF org full face clutch

-Note 1a for $2280 gets you a Inline Pro adapter plate a Z33/34 and Clutch Masters twin disc clutch vs ~$2145 (depending on clutch) with TF for a ACT stage clutch. I paid $2200 to Collins as it was the only kit out at the time for the CD00x with a single plate clutch (came with an ebay VQ stage 3). HIGHY DO NOT RECOMEND DOING BUSINESS WITH HIM. FYI those adapter fly wheels are heavy AF for billet aluminum, I swear mine weight ~25lbs.

$1049 driveshaft, has the funky front joint for a BMW trans. Order tab has you fill out chassis and abs/non-abs but then asks for driveshaft lentgh????

-Note 1b for the cost of this drive shaft you could have bought a used CD009 and a shaft masters cd009 240sx alumium drive shaft is only $400.

$180 TF shifter bolts directly to floor where boot would to go.
$69.95 shifter selector rod

-Note 1c shifter kits for the cd009 start at $250

$85 K24/k20 swivle neck Tstat housing.

-Note 2 This is not needed and would do not recommend threw personnel testing. If you do get it, absolutely do not bolt this directly to the water pump housing! This setup puts the wax pellet out of the stream of the coolant bypass as it puts the bypass flow into the lower radiator hose. With just carefully enlarging the the OEM Tstat mount holes you can get the lower radiator outlet to face down for FREE.99.

$174 K24 upper water neck adapter

-Note 3 this is a TracTuff adapter you can barely see the logo in picture 2. What you don't get buying it from TF is OPTIONS. I highly recommend at a minimum is to order it from TracTuff and get the 30$ option for a bleed port to be welded on. This motor is nearly impossible to bleed with out a high point spot to bleed it. Even better would be to order a swirl pot giving you a high fill port and effort less cooling system maintenance. I paid a Nice 420$ for mine but I also added 2 1/2 NPT bungs for a maximum effectiveness. First a bung up top to aid in the bleeding of the heater core while cleaning up plumbing and secondly a bung on the bottom for coolant bypass simplifying the intake manifold install/removal.
https://nebula.wsimg.com/obj/RTI5NDYzMzE2MjRBN0M0QkZFQTI6ZjZjODE3NzM5YjFkNTdkOW MzZDgwN2M0MDYxNzVlOGY6Ojo6OjA=
https://scontent-yyz1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/69694152_10214485507987477_6269997484395724800_o.j pg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_sid=e007fa&_nc_ohc=0WSQBBA_x_IAX9lQpkk&_nc_ht=scontent-yyz1-1.xx&oh=3733609a845fa0387fd00a38e26b8e8e&oe=5EA76158

$499 Kmiata intake, no complaints looking it over. Qreat budget option unless looking for max power or want to go DBW then I would suggest going for a Skunk2 Ultra intake for slightly more.

$1095 Turbo manifiold (Vband only)

ENGINE BITS
$197 K20 50 deg VTC

-Note 4 you can get one of these from the junkyard for a bout 20$ can easliy find the PR3 (IIRC) version on the base model RSX

$199.95 K20 RSX oil pump.

-Note 5 if running K24 Block will need to be notched to fit block.

$33 K20 windage tray

- Note 6 5$ from junkyard found on most RSXs.

$13 K20 oil pump guide

$97.90 OEM tensioner

- Note 7 is recommend to replace common failure item especially with some aftermarket cams. many aftermarket tensioners out there some say aftermarkets do more harm then good stretching chains faster. Considering this these are 2 parts you want to add. 1 K20z3 upper timing guide ~$20 its longer and pervents the cams from jumping in a failure. 2 lower aftermarket timing chain guard which prevents the chain from jumping on the crank $30-50 depending on brand.

External engine parts

$29.95 7 rib belt
$190 "JDM" k24a2 idler pulley
-Note 8 part is not JDM also cam on USDM EP3 could be had at junkyard for 15$. alternatively you can order a billet pulley with belt for $161.99 from Ktuned (https://www.kseriesparts.com/KTD-KPB-K24-501.html)
$165 Radium Rail with basic fittings

Total before tax and shipping $7518 for a 6spd ZF setup, no power steering

Now this does not included a down pipe, Ecu, wiring Turbo, Wastegate, BOV, intercooler setup, transmission, cooling hose setup, and odds and ends but this is the basics.

Now tallying up my notes the total with a twin disc CD00x setup including a 76$ GKtech trans mount minus transmission(might need a mount meant for a 2JZ engine tho) and 226$ Ktuned PS relocation kit (although idk if it would fit their with oil pan) would be $6326

Anyway you do it this swap it will cost a minimum of 9k to be Turbo and that's if you DIY your wiring, exhaust, coolant plumbing, and intercooler. I Balled out with stuff like twin scroll, DBW, Haltech 1500 while making everything from scratch and still totaled out to around 11k-12k.

[TheRealSy90]

Now this does not included a down pipe, Ecu, wiring Turbo, Wastegate, BOV, intercooler setup, transmission, cooling hose setup, and odds and ends but this is the basics.

Also doesn't include the engine itself lol.

Thanks for explaining all of that, that's basically the exact costs i've been calculating myself and you explained everything better than I insinuated.

[foreverdeath]

Also doesn't include the engine itself lol.

Thanks for explaining all of that, that's basically the exact costs i've been calculating myself and you explained everything better than I insinuated.

The engine is the cheap part LOLZ

[thegr8one013]

Has anyone purchased this kit? Curious of the outcome