teach me about body roll

[S13squirrel]

I am in college and on a low budget, and plus my 240 is my only car, but I want to make it handle a bit better than stock. It's a '91 hatch SE, and I was hoping to reduce the body roll so that cornering is more stable. Problem is, I know very little about suspension. I know that anti-roll or sway bars are good, but what about springs? All I can find on Ebay are lowering springs, and I don't care about lowering my car-- I just thought stiffer springs or a higher spring rate improved cornering. I only glanced at prices of coilovers before deciding against those.... I am really limited to only a couple hundred bucks. I am not autocrossing yet, so I don't need dramatic results on such a low budget. However, I don't mind sacrificing some ride quality in order to improve cornering. Any suggestions? Any brands you recommend?

[XxJaPxOxNeEs23xX]

just get springs, shocks, and sway bars for now, not coilovers (expensive!!), i mean they made a differnce for me, it doesnt sway that much anymore. its not as scary when u turn.

[proj240sx]

if you want cheaper way to enhance handling i would say springs and shocks as well. eibach and espelir are good springs and within your range. everyone seems to go with the agx adjustable for shocks. koni adjustables i believe are pretty expensive. take your time and look around, plenty of info on the forums as well.

[The Hamsterball]

Don't do any of that at all.

Now now.. I can see that you don't know much about your car just yet.

Take it to auto-x as a stock car..

even better idea, take it to a skid pad and screw around. Nothing will improve your car's handling more than you.

After you do the skidpad deal or try pushing it on autox's ..

move on to whatever suspension upgrades you want... but do it slowly. I'd say just start out with minor things first.
Ebay Front/Rear strut tower bar package.. $43 shipped after tax..
do that, then move on to shocks, or shocks + springs, or coilovers.. watever path suits you.

good luck

[XxJaPxOxNeEs23xX]

yeh thats a better way to go . i messed up already. i had to change mine cuz i got in to an accident so i just upgraded it instead of just getting the oem agian. but i really whish i ddnt change it. my plan was to take it stock, and improve parts later. but i messed up.

[nightwalker]

three things that will give you THE best handling bang for the buck: good struts, swaybars, and rim/tires. Start off with a good spring/strut combo first, then add swaybars.

[papershot]

sometimes i would have wanted to buy the coilovers instead of the spring/strut setup. should have just saved more so i wouldn't have to buy now...

[GonadSX]

I dunno if these are good examples of 0 body roll but here are some videos of my car in action.
I have PDM-Racing's whiteline bushing kit, Whiteline swaybars (front and rear), D2 7/5 coilovers, subframe spacers, and CP-Racing triangulated strut bars (front and rear).

Compared to some of the other cars at the event, my car hardly shows any lean/roll on tight turns.

http://240sx.cubicdesign.com/videos/driftkhana2/gautamjturns1.wmv
http://240sx.cubicdesign.com/videos/driftkhana2/gautamjturns2.wmv
http://240sx.cubicdesign.com/videos/driftkhana2/gautamjturns3.wmv

[MakotoS13]

the best thing you could possibly do is have a new bushing set installed. if you neglect this everything you do to tighten suspension will be fighting old worn bushings.

[AceInHole]

The D2 coilovers are a good bang-for-the-buck coilover setup, and cost about as much as a set of good springs and shocks (i.e. Koni's and Eibachs) with tons of extra features.

[OptionZero]

Forget all those parts. Like the guy said, spend your money on SCCA membership and learn how to drive your shit.

[MakotoS13]

learning on a car with good bushings can only improve your skill level. the fact that this guy is asking what is body roll already shows that he's more than likely too mentally challenged to put up much of afight when rubber hits road, anyhow.

skipping bushings on a 15 year old car is like painting a car then doing the body work... effing stupid.

[AN89HATCH]

Get good tires, something like ziex. From my experience, tires will make your car handle alot better than crappy cheap springs.

[citizen]

Get good tires, something like ziex. From my experience, tires will make your car handle alot better than crappy cheap springs.

good tires... ziex... lol
learn on some shit ball tires first. the limits are lower so you learn how to handle the car when it passes those limits faster. get some decent tires after you've surpassed the speed your tires can support. dont waste your time with ziex, get something halfway decent.

[OptionZero]

second on the ziex sucking balls for serious driving ...you want Azenis Sports, Supra MX's, S-03's, or G-force t/a's.....but DRIVE YOUR CAR MORE before you throw shit on there...
ride with other drivers too

[S13squirrel]

thanks so much, Makoto, for taking the opportunity to insult me when I just came on here looking for help and advice. And for the record, I know what body roll is -- I never asked that question. I asked for the cheapest way to get rid of body roll. I don't see the need for you to take shots at me just because I haven't had the chance to get out into an SCCA event yet. For the rest of you, thanks for your input, especially those of you who encourage me to just drive my car to its limits before I start tinkering.

And for the record... the tires on my car are about 80% gone already, so I'll be exploiting them until they go bald!

[thx247]

Based off of what you've said, I think you would be happiest with two or three things on the list below:

Decent set of tires. What tire you choose is up to you. If I didn't know of a sticky tire already I would goto my local autox and look at what the guys there run on their cars. What you see there will give you a good base of tire types to choose from. Then you need to decide how many miles you want to get out of your tires. My favorite cheap tire is Falken's Azenis sport, they typically last me 9,000 miles. But alot of that is track mileage, so you would probably get more like 15,000 miles out of them if you just did Autox and drove on the street. They are pretty cheap too, $300 shipped for qty 4, 205/50/15's. Another 60 bucks to get them mounted and balanced. With a stock suspension and Azenis you can get .92g's on the skidpad which is really decent.
Keep in mind that a low profile tire will generally perform better than a high profile tire. 205 is the tread width (mm), 50 is the height of the tire (mm), and 15 is the size of the wheel (inches). 50 profile tires perform well on a stock suspension, but you get 3-4 inches of wheel gap which to some people looks silly. Other people like myself don't care, just so long as it performs well. 60 profile tires look OK on a stock car, but the tread tends to rollover a fair amount when you're driving hard so you lose a bit of performance there.

Sway bars- I'm not as big fan of sway bars as most, but they do limit body roll AND they won't make the ride harsher except in extreme conditions (bumps in a turn). A sway bar effectively increases the spring rate of the suspension by compressing both sides of the cars springs in a turn. The increased rate limits body roll in the same manner that stiffer springs limit roll, with the added benefit of having soft springs when the car is driving straight. You get to keep your nice soft springs when you hit bumps or holes in the road, but when you turn the car feels tight and corners flat. Its a pretty nice combination for spirited street driving and autoX. Whiteline makes sway bars which are appropriately sized for a stock sprung 240, but unless you want to grease the poly bushings the bar comes with, I would stick to the hard rubber sway bar mounts that are on the car right now. (The last sentence will make sense to you if you buy a sway bar). The car will feel tighter and turn a little better, but the only increased grip you are going to get will be from the suspension not going negative camber as much as it used on the inside tire, and a little less roll on the outside tire. The mod will make the car feel fast on slow corners on the street, but I have not seem a measurable impact on the track or a data logger from having sway bars. Later on with a full suspension the sway bars become useful again to do some tuning with the front and rear grip.

Limited slip differential - In my opinion, a quality limited slip differential is the most usefull change you can make to a stock 240 next to tires. For purpose of this discussion I will only comment on 1 way and 1.5 way (S15 LSD) limited slips. On the street it will have the most impact on freeway on and off ramps, drag race starts, and really spirited u-turns. For 90 degree corners and other short turns it is not as utilized since you have to be on the gas to get a limited slip to work. (a 2 way limited slip however is not as picky and works during deaccelation)
Without going into how a LSD operates, a 1 or 1.5 way LSD will let you get on the gas earlier in a turn and make the car feel more sure footed when you hit the gas while turning.

TC rod bushings - Traction control rod bushings are pretty much a given for cars as old as our 240's. PDM sell the bushings for 40-60 bucks. They fix the wheel from wandering at highway speeds, stop strange wheel lockups when braking hard (Very noticeable in autox and track driving) and give meaning to any wheel alignment that you get done. Cheap and worthwhile change to make.

There are alot more things you can change on the car, but I think these items are some of the most effective ones that will not hinder streetability and are fairly inexpensive.

[MakotoS13]

thanks so much, Makoto, for taking the opportunity to insult me when I just came on here looking for help and advice.

wow, that was probably my least offensive most helpful post in the history of zilvia. i actually didn't insult you at all yet your panties are in a wad...

good luck, kid ;)

[S14DB]

Keep in mind that a low profile tire will generally perform better than a high profile tire. 205 is the tread width (mm), 50 is the height of the tire (mm), and 15 is the size of the wheel (inches). 50 profile tires perform well on a stock suspension, but you get 3-4 inches of wheel gap which to some people looks silly. Other people like myself don't care, just so long as it performs well. 60 profile tires look OK on a stock car, but the tread tends to rollover a fair amount when you're driving hard so you lose a bit of performance there.

The 50 is 50%, as in half of 205. Not 50mm.

Sway bars- I'm not as big fan of sway bars as most, but they do limit body roll AND they won't make the ride harsher except in extreme conditions (bumps in a turn). A sway bar effectively increases the spring rate of the suspension by compressing both sides of the cars springs in a turn. The increased rate limits body roll in the same manner that stiffer springs limit roll, with the added benefit of having soft springs when the car is driving straight. You get to keep your nice soft springs when you hit bumps or holes in the road, but when you turn the car feels tight and corners flat. Its a pretty nice combination for spirited street driving and autoX. Whiteline makes sway bars which are appropriately sized for a stock sprung 240, but unless you want to grease the poly bushings the bar comes with, I would stick to the hard rubber sway bar mounts that are on the car right now. (The last sentence will make sense to you if you buy a sway bar). The car will feel tighter and turn a little better, but the only increased grip you are going to get will be from the suspension not going negative camber as much as it used on the inside tire, and a little less roll on the outside tire. The mod will make the car feel fast on slow corners on the street, but I have not seem a measurable impact on the track or a data logger from having sway bars. Later on with a full suspension the sway bars become useful again to do some tuning with the front and rear grip.

I disagre totaly. The ST bars were the best upgrade I ever did.

[nightwalker]

put away your spoons everyone.

[sykikchimp]

Replace busted bushings first. Stock bushings aren't horrible as long as they aren't broken. after that..

Get a cheap Front strut tower bar, and some sway bars.
I think sway bars (especially adjustable ones like whitelines) are the way to go when you first get into it. Tires grip best when they are allowed to follow the contours of the pavement. High spring rates work against a car on bumpy roads. Sway bars offer the ability to combat roll by limiting the deflection of the control arms in relation to one another. They only increase wheel rate while turning, and marginally compared to the amount of wheel rate required to do the same thing with just springs.

Then tires.
then brakes pads and maybe some new rotors if necessary.
then springs and struts after you have a fair amount of seat time. (unless your stock units are blown.) Honestly soft stock springs are a blessing when you are just learning how to drive in a high performance situation. They allow for a certain amount of error with out causing the car to become dramatically upset like a high rate spring will.

[thx247]

The 50 is 50%, as in half of 205. Not 50mm.

I disagre totaly. The ST bars were the best upgrade I ever did.

I stand corrected. http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/general/size.jsp

[Jesster]

The 50 is 50%, as in half of 205. Not 50mm.

I'm glad someone else caught that. 50mm is like an inch an a half which would be like a 205 30, which i think only exists for a 18 inch wheel, maybe a 17

[ThatGuy]

I am returning this Thread back to the depths from which it came.

PAY ATTENTION TO THREAD DATES!

:lockd: