S13 SR20DET smoking after rebuild

[Dempseybe]

Ok guys, I have a S13 SR20DET That had been rebuilt. Has about.. 10 miles on it maybe

After initial crank test drove it around the block and noticed it was smoking.
Immediately went home, took off the exhaust manifold and noticed the exhaust ports for 2&3 had black ash in it, and oily residue

Piston rings are new, and were gapped correctly to my knowledge. Compression is 145 - 160 on all 4 (all within tolerance)

Mods to the SR20
HKS cam gears
T28 S15 ball bearing garret turbo
Brian crower stage 2 head kit
Valves, springs, retainers
264 cams
Z32 MAF

Was untuned when it was started.

If it were the rings not seated properly I should see a noticeable decrease in compression on 2&3 correct?

Could a valve not be seated properly? Allowing oil into the combustion chamber?
Possibly the cam gears adjusted wrong?

[Dempseybe]

I'm not looking for a 100 percent "that's the problem" answer. More of like a opinion in the step to take next to be cost effective on how to narrow this issue down. The short block had been redone also by a local machine shop. Not by my uncle joe in his step moms garage

[Kingtal0n]

Did you adjust the camshaft gears after using a degree wheel on the camshaft lobe to determine optimal centering (for decked head/blocks)? If the head/block was not decked then why does it even have cam gears? Did you ask the builder how much he has taken from the head/deck?

The above has nothing to do with your problem, its just for reference (you can think about it).

On to the problem. I would have never run home and removed my exhaust manifold. Pictures of this situation?

It is normal within 10 miles to find a drop of oil or some smokey behavior on a new engine. If it has good compression across the board then the oil in the cylinder should clear up. How do the plugs look?

You need to do an oil change soon, what did the builder recommend and what are the main clearances. A .0012" main bearing uses a different oil than .0022" so you need to figure that out before even starting it.

Finally, after you get the right oil, and figure out how the cams need to be adjusted (by degree'ing them in), you can run the engine 10+ miles, and hopefully the oil clears out of the chambers. If you get to 20~ miles and find oil on the plugs still, then you need to investigate further. Perhaps someone put the wrong valve seals on it, or installed them wrong (it happens). Perhaps there is a problem with a piston ring (poor machine work). Perhaps the PCV valve is passing oil to the combustion chamber. (inspect intake side PCV for oil residues). Do not boost an engine that shows oil on it's spark plugs.

[Dempseybe]

Ok I pulled the motor expecting to send the short block back the machine shop. Thanks for the advice, I'll end up checking the valve seals, that could have easily been overlooked when putting it all back together. I'll post back once I do that and drop it back in and run it for about 50 miles

[Dempseybe]

What you have was EXTREMELY good advice and I appreciate the time you put into that post. Thank you.

[Croustibat]

Some smoke is normal, that is assembly lube burning out.

Having 15psi compression difference on a freshly built block is not.

Finally, Z32 maf, untuned ? I don't understand how it can even move, except if the tuner put a base map in it.

[TheRealSy90]

That engine needs to be put under load to seal the Piston rings. As well as under extended vacuum/decel.

[Dempseybe]

Yes base map tune. The machine shop that redid the rings also honed and cleaned the short block. No bore, no decking. Nothing out of the norm. So I imagine their work was done 100 percent. oily residue was found in the exhaust ports of [email protected] but 1&4 are clean, so I figured all residue would be out. It also idled for about 30 mins before I drove it. Maybe I should drive it for a break in period.

Secondly if a valve is not seating correctly, if maybe there is a small gap between the valve face and the seal that could be allowing the 15psi difference in the cylinders?

[Dempseybe]

Just for safety measures, probably going to pull the head, lap the valves to ensure a complete seat. Put it all together and a good break in period. I want to put ARP head studs in anyways.

[Kingtal0n]

If you are using a stud instead of a bolt, the engine needs to be bored with a deck plate to ensure round cylinders.

Many people skip that step, but it is the right way to do the job.

[Dempseybe]

Part of the rebuild was metal head gasket and ARO head studs. Was decked

[Dempseybe]

Edit on the last post. Talked to the builder and he said head studs were installed

[Kingtal0n]

He put head studs in without using a deck plate? And now your bottom end is passing oil on two cylinders? Probably a coincidence,

but what does the leakdown say? You need a leakdown test to verify.

[Dempseybe]

I'll perform a leak down. But I just asked the builder if they used a SR deck plate when the short block was honed and torqued down, no reply yet but I'm almost positive they did. The machine shop knows better than to hone aluminum without using a deckplate

[Dempseybe]

If it wasn't done and now 2&3 are oval shaped and not sealing correctly.. I'm sorry for mixed information the builder isn't the most reliable source. It's pretty much me trying to find out exactly what was done to this engine

[TheRealSy90]

Lapping the valves is going to throw off the valve to rocker lash as well fyi.


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[Dempseybe]

So how are you supposed to lap the valves on a sr20 then?

[TheRealSy90]

Have a valve lash job done at the same time to make sure it's all in spec.


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[Kingtal0n]

Yeah these engines arnt easy to build. I have a list somewhere...

[Dempseybe]

I need to find a place somewhat local who knows SR20s well to machine it

[Kingtal0n]

let me know if you find one. I've been looking for 10 years and havn't found a single place. I used to think mazworx had their shit together but recently I am starting to even doubt them.

[Dempseybe]

Ok, so if I take this to a regular machine shop, I'm going to need to know exactly what to do to this head so I know they will also. If I reuse my old valves, springs, retainers(which are brand new, maybe 10 miles on them) get all new seals. Have the shop do lapping, valve to rocker lash job, resurface the head. What else?

[Dempseybe]

UPDATE: ok so i took off the valve cover to check for wear on the camshafts from the rockers. No scratches on the cams, but what I did find looks to be some lapping compound in a puddle of oil sitting on the heads... Fuck

[Kingtal0n]

pictures really help, i notice you dont post any. Makes me think you are making this stuff up. If you run the engine, everything under the valvecover gets absolutely pressure washed with oil within seconds. So I dont see how some liquid could sit around.

[Dempseybe]

I tried uploading pics, said too large. Let me try to setup a tinypic account

[Dempseybe]

The motor hasn't been cranked in months, so it's all just standing oil under the valve cover

[Dempseybe]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160130/6f304cb2fd3aa42b686e219c83e15853.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160130/8f6788d665633f6a5d34448dae1a1e51.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160130/8f5ed55dc26e2489e7ad7be3e41f021c.jpg


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[cotbu]

Lol, that's a rookie build move right there! Your oil pickup is gonna have rtv up all in the screen, so you know some gets through.

I would do a tare down and rebuild if that engine was given to me for free.

Anyway, depending on how long this was built it could be assembly lube, and the oil puddles are normal unless you never tried to start it.

If it feels gritty, you probably got beat, especially after 10 miles that oil should have been change twice by now.

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[Dempseybe]

If that isn't lapping compound, what would be the grit?


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[cotbu]

Meterial from your cams, cam journals or head. Hence the you probably got beat portion of the post. It could be anything left over from a sloppy build really, which is why we change the oil a few times during break in.

If you can feel it, its already to late!:cool:

[Dempseybe]

Well it only was ran for 10 miles. So it hasn't even been in a break in period. I understand the grit could be material but that's why you change oil. But everything is brand new in it, I've inspected everything and nothing is scarred or chipped in the head.


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[cotbu]

After rebuild or coming from the machine shop, it gets a start up oil change. 10mi is enough for another change if you're doing a hard break in.

You will not notice most of the materials being worn off and getting trapped in the oil, thats whats supposed to happen. We are talking about grit and not chunks so best bet is to always clean the parts you install(tank) always change the oil and filter, after a while the oil should be silky smooth slippery to the touch.

Regardless of what why and how this is or what happened! What are you going to do next?

[Dempseybe]

Well, since I'm not the one who put the 10 miles on it, I'm going to send the heads to a machine shop, install a magnetic oil drain plug. Have a machine shop do a pressure test on the heads to make sure everything is sealed, and clean the heads, possibly a re surface if needed(it was already done on rebuild) put a brand new metal head gasket on, and install the head and change the oil.


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[Dempseybe]

Do a thorough break in period on very low boost. Change the oil at 50 miles, 100 miles, 200 miles, and 500 miles. After 800 miles go in for a full on tune when oil is at normal consistency, put in full synthetic mobile one. Change the filter every time I change oil


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[Sforteen]

If you see oil in the ports its likely a exhuast valve steam seal.

When does it smoke? Idle, decel, under power, etc??

That mystery greg goop is probably residule moly lube from installing ARP head studs.

Does the oil look like it comes down from the valve guide or does it look like its coming out thru the exhuast valve...

Not boring/honing an engine with a torque plate isnt gonna make a huge difference, ive built alot of high performance engines without one and while its not ideal, i havent had an issue with any of them.

No reason to change oil that often, thats way to often, not gonna hurt anything to do that, its just not needed.

Engines dont really "break in" the rings seat and thats about the extent of it

[Dempseybe]

Well, I took the head off, and I looking inside the intake port at TDC before removing the head and metal shavings were on the crown of the intake valve. So I removed the head but didn't see any metal inside the bore.. I need to get an engine stand, take the oil pan off and look for shaving.. Just order new valve seals and will send the head off tomorrow. So I'll chime in on how the rod bearings look, and the oil pan. But as of the smoking residue I don't know because I just bought the motor knowing it was smoking. Never actually saw the smoke. But I did see the shaving, better safe than sorry


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[Kingtal0n]

yeah thats one of many problems with a machine shop I have experienced, as will many. I too found little metal shaving on top of a head, distributed in random spots, on a freshly finished sr head that had, replaced all the guides, brand new ferrea valves, valve job (angle cut / seat work), the minimum to get a fresh start, and it sucks to find those little shavings knowing any one of them could clog one of the many orifices and starve the engine for oil. It doesn't matter if all the machine work is done perfectly if they are leaving behind little bits of shaving. I love a fresh engine too, we really need to inspect the work ourselves, buy the right tools to assemble it and clean it yourself. Otherwise... this.

[Dempseybe]

Yea and I'm in Mississippi where imports are far in between.. There is a few local import shops but they don't do machine work. So when you bring in a JDM motor they don't really have the appreciation to put 110% into the machine unless you're building a fox body modular ford engine.


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[Dempseybe]

Tonight I'm dropping the oil pan, and I'll update this thread with tons and tons of pictures of the everything so you guys can get a better idea of things now that I'm able to upload pics


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[Dempseybe]

ok update! So I dropped the oil pan, removed the filter, drained the oil. Inspected the bottom end. Very very small amount of flakes in the oil! Normal amount for break in period(refer to pics) short block seems to be good. JE forged pistons and rods were found in the block(that's a plus! Didn't know those were in there) also everything checked out ok. Except a stud that's built in to the upper oil pan was broken. It may have broke during the removal. Or before idk. But either way it needs a new upper oil pan, other than that. It's all good. The heads were the problem and those will be sent off tomorrowhttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160204/800f814baca22b6d75942d8a2efe6e38.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160204/1947bec101336ce8ff2640ad0ff77260.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160204/c251fa273976d65daa812f5853fd9dc1.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160204/881e2fbf0856a713637cbd5291699b11.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160204/3d64493016e507240d8a69d7c8b00be3.jpg


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[Dempseybe]

ALSO, the oil pan is a grey color due to the mystery oil mix. It threw me off also at first. But then realized the mix along with assembly grease will cause this color

The oil that drained out was a normal oil color, and wasn't black. Just a darker color than what is coming out a fresh bottle


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[cotbu]

You have to remove the caps to determine if a bearing is showing wear, if a bearing is dead it will have play. Thats a different scenario. Any who goodluck!

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[Sforteen]

Metal flakes in oil is NEVER normal. You have something wrong if you can see metal in the oil.

That engine needs to be taken down completely for inspection, and reclearanced as needed..

[Dempseybe]

Ok, so update from the machine shop doing the head work. 3 intake valves were bent (these are all brand new BC stainless steel valves.. He said he doesn't know why they are bent

But my guess is when the engine was cranked after the rebuild by the person I bought it from, it was not timed correctly and since this is an interference engine. The valves slightly kissed the piston. No markings on the Pistons so it may have just been slightly out of time. What's yalls input?


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[Kingtal0n]

Ok, so update from the machine shop doing the head work. 3 intake valves were bent (these are all brand new BC stainless steel valves.. He said he doesn't know why they are bent

But my guess is when the engine was cranked after the rebuild by the person I bought it from, it was not timed correctly and since this is an interference engine. The valves slightly kissed the piston. No markings on the Pistons so it may have just been slightly out of time. What's yalls input?


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I've gotten sr20 back from machine shops with incorrect chain timing setting also. Its just one more example of how they fail massively at this engine. If you can't even set the timing right, how are you going to perform the machine work? And only 3 valves touched the piston? What about the fourth one, is it somehow deeper or different in some way? That worries me almost as much as the metal flakes.

You have it, might as well run it. Just do the best you can cleaning and inspecting. Otherwise, tear down, part out (like so many others) and buy a stock engine.

[Dempseybe]

Yea I only paid 1800 for this engine. With all of those upstaged internals, if it works out then awesome! If it doesn't.. Then oh well I'm out of 1800, part out and buy a stock one. But I have a feeling this time it should be fine. I brought it to a way more reputable machine shop than the other guy did (I have a lot more money then him) so everything will be done appropriately. I think he just had sloppy work by sloppy people


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