what are my options to hook up racing harnesses?

[bobafett]

my seats are garbage in my 240, and i have a friend who can get me a reaaaaly good price on some racing seats... now i have ridden in cars with harnesses, and really liked the feeling while driving really hard...

my question is, what do i need to install to my car to safely install harnesses? at this point im thinking a 4pt harness is all i need.

from my research it looks like a roll bar is the answer, what options other than autopower do i have for an 89 s13 hatch? also where would i purchase that roll car?

is it safe to use harnesses with a c pillar bar?

if i were to get something welded in custom ,and not off the shelf, what do i need to implement to get the harnesses installed properly, are there certain mounting points that are critical? the only factor i am aware of, is that you should have the upper points of the harness even with your shoulders, and not mounted low like on the floor, so that if you crash the belts will not compress your spine.

anyway whats your input on the easiest, cheapest or best way to install harnesses with some racing seats?

[sykikchimp]

http://www.zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=59318

[Zen S14]

My recent research on the same exact subject yielded the following info.

1. Racing harness should at least be five point to be safe. The lap belt can ride up into your ribcage during an impact and cause substantial internal injury. That annoying belt that goes between your legs is the one that keeps the lap belt from moving up or you from moving down.

2. The shoulder harness must mount either above shoulder height or at the most 10 degree down. Anymore angle downward can cause spinal compression during an accident. So mounting point is critical to safety.

3. Racing harness does not allow you move your head out of the way during a rollover. Therefore, no roll bar or cage, then don't use the harness.


The roll cage is best bet because most true cage makers make a cross bar for mounting the harness as part of the design. I am not sure what you mean by a C pillar bar? Strut bars and other flimsy bars are not safe to strap a harness to. I have seen Porche boxter guys get a custom bar for harness mounting though. But they also have a rollbar stock with the car.

If you don't want to spend money on a cage then run the stock seatbelts with the seat. I am doing that and I am held in quite nicely because the seat provides so much more support.

[KiDyNomiTe]

The gist of the thread is get a 5-point with a cage that has a harness bar. I am a hypocrite, but you said safe.

[KiDyNomiTe]

I am not sure what you mean by a C pillar bar?
There is a bar that connects the two seat belt mounting positions in 91-93 hatches (and some 90s). It seems as if its too high.

[bobafett]

yeah thanks for the info, i think i will just start with seats, and move to a 5pt after i get a cage installed...

also all the reviews about how dangerous they are on the street makes me not in such a hurry for them, while the car will be tracked, it will also be driven on the street regularly!

[msaskin]

Do what I'm planning on doing:

Use stock seatbelts for driving around, swap in the harnesses when it's racing time. My harnesses go in the car the night (or a few days) before any driving event (auto-x, open track event, etc.) when I'm doing my usual race prep (bleed fluids, check suspension bolts, etc...).

~matt

[old_s13]

http://clearcorners.com/temp/old_s13/OLD07.JPG
http://clearcorners.com/temp/old_s13/OLD08.JPG

thats all you need, 4pt harness w/ anti-submarining design and a roll bar with harness bar, simple as that.

for those of you who think 5pt is NECESSARY you're fucking out of your minds, stock is 3 point, congrats.. 4 is more than sufficient. I would imagine 5pt being usefull for people who want the safest RACE setup..

[SirWarrior]

if you want to put in just the harness, Sparco (i think) makes a harness bar that you can install.
Going with a roll bar/cage I will recomend the weld in over the bolt in.

[mikespeed95]

http://clearcorners.com/temp/old_s13/OLD07.JPG
http://clearcorners.com/temp/old_s13/OLD08.JPG

thats all you need, 4pt harness w/ anti-submarining design and a roll bar with harness bar, simple as that.

for those of you who think 5pt is NECESSARY you're fucking out of your minds, stock is 3 point, congrats.. 4 is more than sufficient. I would imagine 5pt being usefull for people who want the safest RACE setup..



you are 100% wrong on your "theory"

i wouldnt describe stock as a "3 point". there are 2 belts, not connected in any way /fasion or form. one lapbelt adn one shoulder harness. when you have an accident the lapbelt shoudl catch, and your body will fold forward, and the shoulder belt will catch you, while yoru head flies wherever it wants.

with most ricer tyte 4 points, since they are all connected the force from you taht the upper belts is trying to catch pulls up the lapbelt, breaking ribs/puncuring lungs , and even possibly if you dont like the way it feels letting your lower body actually come up under the belt.

5 points stop the lapbelt from coming up, basically makign a complete web to hold you. a 4 piont has noothign holdint the bottom down, thus the submarining. stock belts are sinlge straps, that dont interfere with each otehrs jobs liek a 4 point.

sorry for being rude, but pelase learn what you are talkign about. also looking at your pics, i dont see how those woudl not submarine. ESPECIALLY with how you have them setup, look at them, they are coming up even when undone! if there was a body in those the lapbelt would be nowhere near where it needs to be if you connected the single buckle, which is also horrendous design. I hope you dont get in an accident with that setup, youll wind up just like dale after the wall owned him at daytona.

[AKADriver]

Bingo. The shoulder belt in a three-point stock-type seat belt will TIGHTEN the lap belt in a crash (or in the case of the S13 motorized belts, have no effect on it). A harness where the shoulder belts pull up on the center of the lap belt creates the submarining problem.

That said, with the Schroth harness shown in those pictures, it's not as big a deal because the webbing won't stretch as far as a full race harness. It's just stock type seat belt webbing, which isn't used in racing for that exact reason. Truth be told, if the lap belts didn't stretch at all, and the shoulder harnesses were mounted properly to keep them from pushing DOWN on your shoulders, there would be no submarining. It's that little bit of belt stretch in the lap belt that's a concern.

If it's really worrisome, no one said you can't double up belts.

[old_s13]

i ditched the shitty auto seatbelts ages ago and went with s14 seatbelts, last i checked they were 3 point.. and still, even the auto seatbelts are 3 point in my opinion.. because they're still poo.

a 4 piont has noothign holdint the bottom down, thus the submarining.

hence the reason i dont have standard 4pt, i went with schroth which are one of the few street compliant harnesses available since they have the anti-submarining patch which unfolds upon impact.


sorry for being rude, but pelase learn what you are talkign about. also looking at your pics, i dont see how those woudl not submarine. ESPECIALLY with how you have them setup, look at them, they are coming up even when undone! if there was a body in those the lapbelt would be nowhere near where it needs to be if you connected the single buckle, which is also horrendous design.

you're right, i guess i'll ditch my setup and go with stock automatic s13 seatbelts.. those felt so much more secure.


I hope you dont get in an accident with that setup, youll wind up just like dale after the wall owned him at daytona.

yeah thats very funny.. i see you have jokes.

[KiDyNomiTe]

http://clearcorners.com/temp/old_s13/OLD07.JPG
http://clearcorners.com/temp/old_s13/OLD08.JPG

thats all you need, 4pt harness w/ anti-submarining design and a roll bar with harness bar, simple as that.

for those of you who think 5pt is NECESSARY you're fucking out of your minds, stock is 3 point, congrats.. 4 is more than sufficient. I would imagine 5pt being usefull for people who want the safest RACE setup..
If you have a cage it is useless to have a scroth. Scroth would actually be the safest race setup. I could care less to have a harness that will break in an accident (and the legality is not an issue to me).

[sykikchimp]

hence the reason i dont have standard 4pt, i went with schroth which are one of the few street compliant harnesses available since they have the anti-submarining patch which unfolds upon impact.


Exactly why Schroth are awesome belts. They are a Stock option in some BMW's in europe. They hold you in the seat like a harness should, and act like a 3-point in a crash. I think "Nismo" 4-points are also made by schroth.

Not to mention that having a 4-point will allow you to maintain control of the car in an "on the edge" situation better than the stock belts since you aren't getting tossed back and forth as violently.

The "Safest" setup is a 5 or 6 point with a roll cage, and an approved racing seat. Obviously this is not a good setup for any street car. It's all about compromise, and getting the right setup for your needs.

[old_s13]

The "Safest" setup is a 5 or 6 point with a roll cage, and an approved racing seat. Obviously this is not a good setup for any street car. It's all about compromise, and getting the right setup for your needs.

i cant agree with you more...

4pt is already insanely excessive, i have to strap my stupid ass in everytime i get in my car.. i cant reach everything and i have to sit upright.. now, not that i have a problem with any of this, because i hit corners hard pretty often so the sacrifice is worth it.

BUT.... i can tell you this, there's no way im puttin a fuckin strap in front of my jewels without a cup. this is MORE than sufficient for street use....

not to mention, every passenger needs to be "refitted" depending on their size, so it can sometimes be a pain in the ass.. (usually for my thicker friends), but most people know my car and know how to adjust the belts.

either way, its nutty.. but it works fine for street. i'll be flipping my car next week, i'll letcha know if its a safe setup or wether i'll be chillin in the sky with tupac, biggie, and dale...

[KiDyNomiTe]

[b]
BUT.... i can tell you this, there's no way im puttin a fuckin strap in front of my jewels without a cup. this is MORE than sufficient for street use....

It really isnt uncomfortable at all, its not really meant to hold you in at all times, but rather hold the harness down and keep you from sliding under the lap belt. If you get to a point where its tight then you would be in a greater damage w/o it. Everyone just assumes that its a nut crusher but I make them sit in my seat and put it on and they love it with it instead of w/o.

[holisticbeatz]

http://www.sparco-usa.com/pharness_bars.asp?id=501

[msaskin]

http://www.sparco-usa.com/pharness_bars.asp?id=501

That only gives you a place to properly mount the harness. It doesn't protect your head from being crushed by the roof in the event of a roll-over.

This thread has already got all the information correct. If you're going to run a harness other than a schroth you 100% need a roll-bar.

~matt

[old_s13]

This thread has already got all the information correct. If you're going to run a harness other than a schroth you 100% need a roll-bar.


you need a roll bar ANYTIME you run harnesses.

[msaskin]

This thread has already got all the information correct. If you're going to run a harness other than a schroth you 100% need a roll-bar.


you need a roll bar ANYTIME you run harnesses.

Not true. Scroths, with also happen to be DOT legal (the ONLY harnesses legal for driving on the street with) are designed for use without a roll-bar. As explained above in the event of an impact one of the 4 points on a schroth will "let go", effectively making it a 3 point belt, same as stock. The danger with harnesses is not being able to move out of the way of the roof in a roll-over, which you can do safely with a 3 point.

~matt

[Crab Spirits]

Here's my setup...
http://home.comcast.net/~movistar323/lowcaros.JPG
http://home.comcast.net/~movistar323/crabbracket.JPG
I'm a firm believer that people who install 4pts incorrectly give them a bad name. The rear straps have to be at an angle so it doesn't collapse your seat/spine, and the lap belt should be bolted straight down from where it sits on your body so it cannot pull anywhere. BTW, I have Scroth 4pt on my Z31.

[old_s13]

Not true. Scroths, with also happen to be DOT legal (the ONLY harnesses legal for driving on the street with) are designed for use without a roll-bar. As explained above in the event of an impact one of the 4 points on a schroth will "let go", effectively making it a 3 point belt, same as stock. The danger with harnesses is not being able to move out of the way of the roof in a roll-over, which you can do safely with a 3 point.

thanks for letting me know about the product i currently own on my car. that little patch isnt going to do anything other than let one harness expand a few inches so that you dont submarine down, thats the only thing it does. it WONT act like a 3 point and let you move should hte roof collapse.

anyway

[lumbo007]

Exactly why Schroth are awesome belts. They are a Stock option in some BMW's in europe. They hold you in the seat like a harness should, and act like a 3-point in a crash. I think "Nismo" 4-points are also made by schroth.

Which 'nismo' ones are you talking about? is it this one http://www.raretrick.com/index.asp?cat=1908&Page=1&Display=Yes&Back=Listings&ProductsID=4887
is there any way to verify if they're made by schroth?

[sykikchimp]

no.. those are regular harnesses.. likely made by willans..

these are the ones I was talking about:
http://www.jspec.com/nismoseatbelt.html

They are made by willans as well, but I believe they may have some sort of anti-submarine tech built in.. at least I had read that once before. You'll want to verify.