Building a "driveable" and "stealthy" high horsepower SR20DET.

[MeSs]

I've recently bought one of "Teigen's" complete block and cylinderhead (not the btcc head and ITB intake). Some of you might remember his build thread:
http://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=485782

(Please, keep this thread on topic. I've put together alot of lower horsepower engines using bolt-on parts, but never something like this. So there may be stupid questions.)

The specs of the cylinderhead:

- Base Primera SR Head
- New Valve guides and seats
- Brian Crower PRO Double Springs and titan retainers
- SuperTech Seals
- SuperTech Extreme Flow Nitrid Valves and Inconel exhaust valves
- New Valve locks
- CNC Machined combustion Chambers
- Ported
- Custom made Kelford camshafts (285duration/13mm lift)
- Rocker arm stoppers
- Mira Valve seat machining
- Machined for 90mm bore and 1/2" head studs
- Mazworx 90mm SR20 Head Gasket


Block:

S15 RWD turbo Block
Darton Sleeves inserted, bore 90MM
1/2" main studs mazworx
4 Custom made on order CP Pistons (set of 4) -- 90mm 9.5:1 (Gasported)
Carrillo Pro-H Rods, CARR Bolts
Rod Bearing 19,5mm Special made
Ported oil ports to match cylinderhead
Bore & Hone w/ Torque Plate -- 90MM
Resize Line Bore
Resurface Block & Oil Pump
Oil Groove Machining, SR20
19mm Rod Bearing Machining



I bought this for my second daily driver (for nice days and track days) S13 project (http://i.instagram.com/mess180sx/), since purchasing a used CA18DET/SR20DET and rebuilding it in Norway with new and better engine internals actually had become more expensive (:tweak:).
And since this engine would be bulletproof with 400horsepower and good maintance.

"Teigen's" plan was to have to have 1000 horsepower in this, for racing. The engine builder said it would be very reliable at 800 horsepower with good maintenance.

My original plan with this engine was to use stock intake and stock exhaust manifold with a Garrett GTX2876R, using a engine management with 2 different maps.

But I'm now considering more horepower, since I can.

I've talked to "Jonus Racing" (this guy) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXPyYzt9N1E) about using Maxxecu engine management so I can have different maps and easily switch between them. "Jonus" also tells me that he can make for example 3 maps, almost stock map, a more fun map and a trackday map.

I'm now facing a dilemma. The engine build has to be a bit stealthy, because it's not legal to modify cars a lot in Norway. So this ain't gonna be easy.
There is some things that I've got a "good to go" from the DMV in Norway:

SR20 motorswap - The S13 has CA18DET stock in Norway.
Front mount intercooler
Exhaust (has to be under 90db)


I don't think the DMV guy that's controlling the car is gonna care about a aftermarket exhaust manifold (bottom mount) or aftermarket intake manifold.
The deal with DMV is that I have to do a mapping on a rolling road, where I can have max 189hp at the wheels. Also I have to do a desibel check, max 90db and also a emission test. The car have to idle and not go rough.
"Jonus Racing" says this is no problem. Even if I have 600 horsepower on the third map.

Questions:
1. Whats the max horsepower with the stock exhaust manifold and intake manifold if I port the throttle body and extrude hone the intake/exhaust manifolds?

2. Is there any cast bottom mount manifolds that is as good as the tubular?

3. There is a lot of aftermarket intake manifolds, what is the best intake manifold for drivability? The cylinder head must use S13 SR20DET intake.
Low end power.. I've looked at the Greddy one, and I think the runners are to short. Thinking alot about a dual plenum manifold:
http://www.chrisachilles.com/images/82_bmw/intake/cy_intake_04.jpg

4. Is there any turbo that has internal wastegate, where the internal wastegate actually is as good as a external one? Borg-Warner EFR series for example?
For bigger hp applications.

5. Do you think it's possible to get the emission down, get the car to run smooth and idle with a 200hp map, if the third map is 600hp?

Thank you :)

[Croustibat]

You said you have built many engines, and yet you miss basic knowledge about (turbo) engines. A turbo sized for 600hp on a 2L engine will spool poorly and require lower compression and cams, both which will fail emission tests. How can you not know that ? How come your tuner did not tell you ?

A gt2867r on an sr can still be run with very mild cams and high compression, with the right fuel. This nets between 400 and 450whp, with very good drivability.

intake manifold. Keep the OEM one, plain and simple. If you worry about visual modifications, then DO NOT CHANGE the intake mani.

I also do not believe in 800HP, reliable, drivable 2L engine. 600HP ... might be reliable, although expensive to maintain, but it will not be that drivable. don't expect power under 4000rpm. 1000HP ... nope. Not without nitrous / meth , not without a turbo that would just start to spool at 6000rpm and so on. I have seen 1000HP RBs, they come with 50% more displacement and spin to 11.000rpm. I have seen videos of the 1000+ lan evo too. They have no drivability, nor reliability. They are drag engines.

Maps. If your engine is mapped for 600whp, it does not care wether it uses 180, 400 or 600. You don't need 3 maps, you need 3 boost control settings... but you will run into wastegate control issues. If you need 180hp, basically it means using a 0.6bar wastegate. Which, even with the best EBC available, will NEVER be able to control the 2+ bar boost needed for 500+ application. I doubt it will be able to control anything past 1.3/1.4bar.

So, first, get your priorities straight. Do you want:
-high power output ?
-good drivability ?
-somewhat cheap maintenance ?
-a legal car ?
-a daily car ?
High power goes in the way of drivability, maintenance and laws. Actually anything north of 300HP will not go to 180HP without having emission tests.

So let's face it : you will never use that 180HP setting, except for the DMV. Meaning the car will be illegal after that. Hence, just toss a CA18DET in there for the DMV guys, then swap.

The only valid, legal option is get a daily that can tow, and throw that car on a trailer.
But you still won't get a drivable 600HP engine.

[MeSs]

You said you have built many engines, and yet you miss basic knowledge about (turbo) engines. A turbo sized for 600hp on a 2L engine will spool poorly and require lower compression and cams, both which will fail emission tests. How can you not know that ? How come your tuner did not tell you ?
Like I said, I've only used recommended "bolt-on" parts. Like the GT2860RS on the SR20, S14 T28 on CA18, HKS GT-2560 rb26..
My tuner and I only spoke about engine management. Please read the specs, this is the reason why I ask.


A gt2867r on an sr can still be run with very mild cams and high compression, with the right fuel. This nets between 400 and 450whp, with very good drivability.

intake manifold. Keep the OEM one, plain and simple. If you worry about visual modifications, then DO NOT CHANGE the intake mani.
400-450whp, with E85? I only plan on using 98 pump fuel. I've heard many say that the s13 SR intake manifold maxes on 400hp?
If the stock intake manifold and exhaust manifold, and the GT2867r will go to 450whp, it's good enough..


I also do not believe in 800HP, reliable, drivable 2L engine. 600HP ... might be reliable, although expensive to maintain, but it will not be that drivable. don't expect power under 4000rpm. 1000HP ... nope. Not without nitrous / meth , not without a turbo that would just start to spool at 6000rpm and so on. I have seen 1000HP RBs, they come with 50% more displacement and spin to 11.000rpm. I have seen videos of the 1000+ lan evo too. They have no drivability, nor reliability. They are drag engines.

Reliable, well I do. The engine builder is one of the best in Norway.
Drivable, that's another thing.. That's one of the main reason why I asked. Thank you for your input :)


Maps. If your engine is mapped for 600whp, it does not care wether it uses 180, 400 or 600. You don't need 3 maps, you need 3 boost control settings... but you will run into wastegate control issues. If you need 180hp, basically it means using a 0.6bar wastegate. Which, even with the best EBC available, will NEVER be able to control the 2+ bar boost needed for 500+ application. I doubt it will be able to control anything past 1.3/1.4bar.
Thank you. I do think it's a bit strange that the tuner says this tho. But he want's to sell.


So, first, get your priorities straight. Do you want:
-high power output ?
-good drivability ?
-somewhat cheap maintenance ?
-a legal car ?
-a daily car ?
High power goes in the way of drivability, maintenance and laws. Actually anything north of 300HP will not go to 180HP without having emission tests.

So let's face it : you will never use that 180HP setting, except for the DMV. Meaning the car will be illegal after that. Hence, just toss a CA18DET in there for the DMV guys, then swap.

The only valid, legal option is get a daily that can tow, and throw that car on a trailer.
But you still won't get a drivable 600HP engine.
I want high power, and good drivability. Part legal.. haha. Not a daily. I already have a daily and a race car. This will be a second "daily driver", for nice weather days (which is uncommon in Norway) and for some track days.

I've considered getting a stock sr20, for the DMV.

[Croustibat]

Ok, when you talked about high power builds, i thought more than that. I am currently running a 300hp ish CA18DET, with a gt2560r, e85 and supporting mods (never bothered to make an actual dyno run... i used virtual dynos to map and that was enough)

I don't know about that ECU, maybe it has integrated boost control, and that is what he would mean by creating 3 maps.

I know the wastegate control problem because i ran into it and searched. I know no way around now. Preloading the actuator with washers, or using an adjustable length actuator makes for a more stable high boost, at the price of higher base boost and boost creep conditions (it prevents the wastegate from opening fully). A stronger spring in the actuator would solve the stability issue but also raise base boost, which you don't want. But if you are ok swapping springs, then you could use a weak actuator for 180ish hp, then swap the spring to go higher.
I think an electric wastegate actuator would solve the problem completely, but you'd need an ecu that can handle it (and the money to buy and install it)

I don't know about the SR intake restriction. My tuner says it does not, and proves it :D
https://vimeo.com/65543081

It did higher power (450+ ) when the 2" wide 10"long restrictor was removed from the jasma exhaust.

The build was featured by the "turbo by garett" facebook page. Stock mani.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.434799679929164.1073741825.104986359577166&type=3

The problem you will face with the torque going with a 400+ build is the transmission. Stock one does not like it. Rebuilt stock ones does not either. You are going to need something like Z32 or Z33 gearbox and adapter, or uprated internals like os giken does. All options are expensive unfortunately.

[jr_ss]

If you want high horsepower and reliability, sell off the DET head and buy a VE head. The VE head will out flow even an extremely well ported DET head in factory trim.

The factory SR exhaust manifold is a pretty good design up to 4-500hp. Over that you'd benefit more from a tubular one. Twinscroll seems to be the hot ticket, especially if you plan on going EFR. I believe they have a built in quick spool valve that should be released in the future to aid in spool on the TS turbos.

There are a lot of options and finding what does and doesn't work is a task. Expect some lag for higher horsepower as we do have small engines.

[MeSs]

Ok, when you talked about high power builds, i thought more than that. I am currently running a 300hp ish CA18DET, with a gt2560r, e85 and supporting mods (never bothered to make an actual dyno run... i used virtual dynos to map and that was enough)

I don't know about that ECU, maybe it has integrated boost control, and that is what he would mean by creating 3 maps.

I know the wastegate control problem because i ran into it and searched. I know no way around now. Preloading the actuator with washers, or using an adjustable length actuator makes for a more stable high boost, at the price of higher base boost and boost creep conditions (it prevents the wastegate from opening fully). A stronger spring in the actuator would solve the stability issue but also raise base boost, which you don't want. But if you are ok swapping springs, then you could use a weak actuator for 180ish hp, then swap the spring to go higher.
I think an electric wastegate actuator would solve the problem completely, but you'd need an ecu that can handle it (and the money to buy and install it)

I don't know about the SR intake restriction. My tuner says it does not, and proves it :D
https://vimeo.com/65543081

It did higher power (450+ ) when the 2" wide 10"long restrictor was removed from the jasma exhaust.

The build was featured by the "turbo by garett" facebook page. Stock mani.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.434799679929164.1073741825.104986359577166&type=3

The problem you will face with the torque going with a 400+ build is the transmission. Stock one does not like it. Rebuilt stock ones does not either. You are going to need something like Z32 or Z33 gearbox and adapter, or uprated internals like os giken does. All options are expensive unfortunately.
More power would be interesting. E85 is not intresting I'm afraid, since it's really hard to get here in Norway at the moment. Also more and more gas stations are getting rid of E85 :(
I can see why you get that good results when using E85.

If you want high horsepower and reliability, sell off the DET head and buy a VE head. The VE head will out flow even an extremely well ported DET head in factory trim.

The factory SR exhaust manifold is a pretty good design up to 4-500hp. Over that you'd benefit more from a tubular one. Twinscroll seems to be the hot ticket, especially if you plan on going EFR. I believe they have a built in quick spool valve that should be released in the future to aid in spool on the TS turbos.

There are a lot of options and finding what does and doesn't work is a task. Expect some lag for higher horsepower as we do have small engines.
The cylinderhead I'm using is flowtested and "Cylmo" who built it says it's flowing enough for 1000hp.. Even without boost it's flowing enough for 300hp. I don't know if this is the right way of saying it.
It is not a DET head either, it's a high port DE head :)

Thank you for the tips regarding manifold and turbo.. Really interesting :)

[jr_ss]

"Flowtested" by what standards? A typical factory DET head flows 200cfm intake 170cfm exhaust. A factory VE head flows 275cfm intake, 200cfm exhaust. Claiming it'll flow 1000hp isn't a unit of measure. I highly doubt it is close to or in the 300cfm range. Regardless, there are other benefits to using the VE head over the DE/DET head such as shaft mounted rocker arms, better cooling passages and being able to have a tame low lobe cam for cruising around and then the high lobe cam for romping and make the power you want.

[offthewall]

If we're talking dynojet numbers here, 400whp with stock intake and exhaust manifolds is pretty easy honestly.

I'd highly recommend an EFR 6758 for your build, as you won't need an external gate, and it's therefore more low-key. You can also get away with milder cam timing (probably the biggest factor in your emissions testing) with a higher flowing compressor (compensate with boost).

Also, ditch the rocker arm stoppers and do the dual guide mod to the rockers.

[MeSs]

"Flowtested" by what standards? A typical factory DET head flows 200cfm intake 170cfm exhaust. A factory VE head flows 275cfm intake, 200cfm exhaust. Claiming it'll flow 1000hp isn't a unit of measure. I highly doubt it is close to or in the 300cfm range. Regardless, there are other benefits to using the VE head over the DE/DET head such as shaft mounted rocker arms, better cooling passages and being able to have a tame low lobe cam for cruising around and then the high lobe cam for romping and make the power you want.
My fault, according to the company it's 314cfm. Like I said, this is not a DET head. It's a Primera Highport DE head. The camshafts are Kelford and have 285 duration and 13.6 lift. I don't know anymore I'm afraid :) The cooling passages are also modified by the same company. Anyways, this thread isn't for DE/T vs VE. If I had known more about the head maybe I could have sold it and bought a VE head, but this head has already alot of work to it.

[MeSs]

If we're talking dynojet numbers here, 400whp with stock intake and exhaust manifolds is pretty easy honestly.

I'd highly recommend an EFR 6758 for your build, as you won't need an external gate, and it's therefore more low-key. You can also get away with milder cam timing (probably the biggest factor in your emissions testing) with a higher flowing compressor (compensate with boost).

Also, ditch the rocker arm stoppers and do the dual guide mod to the rockers.
Nice, thank you for being on topic and your tips :)

[PoorMans180SX]

If we're talking dynojet numbers here, 400whp with stock intake and exhaust manifolds is pretty easy honestly.

I'd highly recommend an EFR 6758 for your build, as you won't need an external gate, and it's therefore more low-key. You can also get away with milder cam timing (probably the biggest factor in your emissions testing) with a higher flowing compressor (compensate with boost).

Also, ditch the rocker arm stoppers and do the dual guide mod to the rockers.

This is pretty much exactly what I was going to say, hahah.

My fault, according to the company it's 314cfm. Like I said, this is not a DET head. It's a Primera Highport DE head. The camshafts are Kelford and have 285 duration and 13.6 lift. I don't know anymore I'm afraid :) The cooling passages are also modified by the same company. Anyways, this thread isn't for DE/T vs VE. If I had known more about the head maybe I could have sold it and bought a VE head, but this head has already alot of work to it.

Holy camshaft batman! You're going to have a hard time passing emissions with that loping beast.

[Kingtal0n]

This is cookie cutter top build, OEM engine, no lope, 350rwhp, 2871 or similar, oem manifolds.

Once you pass 350rwhp, you no longer want an sr20det. For the cost of machine work and internals, you run an LS or 2J. Everybody knows that though.

A stock untouched, emissions passing 2j with a single is a 500rwhp daily, and the LS on boost is your next step up from there, and it keeps going

[iRONDONkey]

you should move to a better platform, something like a 2j.

[jr_ss]

You guys need to keep it attainable for him. He is not in Merica' and parts are mostly likely not as easy for any of these engines to get.

[PoorMans180SX]

This is cookie cutter top build, OEM engine, no lope, 350rwhp, 2871 or similar, oem manifolds.

Once you pass 350rwhp, you no longer want an sr20det. For the cost of machine work and internals, you run an LS or 2J. Everybody knows that though.

A stock untouched, emissions passing 2j with a single is a 500rwhp daily, and the LS on boost is your next step up from there, and it keeps going

you should move to a better platform, something like a 2j.

UH, he can't swap to any of those engines and get away with it at the DMV... He's stuck with an SR20, he just wants to maximize his available setup...

[MeSs]

This is pretty much exactly what I was going to say, hahah.



Holy camshaft batman! You're going to have a hard time passing emissions with that loping beast.
Yes, so I think I have a plan. Using stock turbo, exhaust manifold and camshaft for DMV, and switch afterwards.. :)

This is cookie cutter top build, OEM engine, no lope, 350rwhp, 2871 or similar, oem manifolds.

Once you pass 350rwhp, you no longer want an sr20det. For the cost of machine work and internals, you run an LS or 2J. Everybody knows that though.

A stock untouched, emissions passing 2j with a single is a 500rwhp daily, and the LS on boost is your next step up from there, and it keeps going
I don't know what you mean with "cookie cutter top build" :) There's no much OEM left in the engine, and thats no plan either.

I actually asked DMV about swapping to a 2JZ, but they wanted papers from Nissan Europe that the S13 chassis could withstand the extra power and weight. Nissan Europe has stopped giving out that kind of papers :(.


you should move to a better platform, something like a 2j.
Like I said to Kingtal0n. :)


You guys need to keep it attainable for him. He is not in Merica' and parts are mostly likely not as easy for any of these engines to get.
Actually both LS and 2JZ are very easy to get, but like I said to Kingtal0n, a no go :)


UH, he can't swap to any of those engines and get away with it at the DMV... He's stuck with an SR20, he just wants to maximize his available setup...
You got it Sir! :)

[jr_ss]

I'm sure the engines are easy to come by, but what about parts? Im sure it's not like here, where your local auto parts store stocks items for those engines.

[MeSs]

I'm sure the engines are easy to come by, but what about parts? Im sure it's not like here, where your local auto parts store stocks items for those engines.
That's actually even easier. All brand dealers have parts, the dumb thing is that the parts are expensive as fuck.

[jr_ss]

I imagined they'd be expensive, just didn't thinkntheyd be readily available. Cool. Good luck with your endeavor.