Engine Issues

[Behemoth]

I purchased my s13 knowing that the engine wasn't working, and thus I've begun the process of troubleshooting the issue. Here's my steps. I'm new to mechanical work, and spend most my time programming.

1. Removed oil.
After draining the oil, I discovered that it reeked of gasoline. :facepalm:

2. Remove Valve Cover.
Checked the valves, and the car DOES turn over. :hsdance:

I'm wondering why the oil has gasoline in it.
My buddy believes it could be a bad injector.
Wondering what you all think.
Cheers! :2f2f:

[RalliartRsX]

Gasoline mixing with Oil sounds more like a bottom end issue (broken ring land allowing oil and charge to mix), or something along those lines. Or maybe even a hole in the piston.

Even if an injector is stuck open, unless the charge is leaking (charge meaning air and gasoline mixture) there is no way for a leaking injector to cause this (and if it does, you have much bigger issues unfortunately :( )

Did you do a compression check?? I am guessing probably not........

[Behemoth]

Thanks for the quick and AWESOME feedback @RalliartRsX !
I didn't do a compression check, but I will now.

I'm sure it's something bad because the previous owner said he rebuilt the engine, and it was having problems from the start. I figure if it was something easy, he would have fixed it.

But that's okay. His mistake is my opportunity to learn.

[bmaddock]

Good attitude and good luck diagnosing. As long as you take some time to research and post intelligently most of us are willing to help.

Let us know how that compression test goes. Make sure to read up on how to interpret the results. I'm quoting something I've post for another forum member

You are looking for 150psi+ on all four cylinders. Make sure you pull the fuel pump fuse, all spark plugs, and keep the throttle wide open on a warm engine. All four should be within 15 psi of each other. If one is off that is your suspect cylinder.

A simple wet vs dry compression test can tell you a lot. From a quick google search:
- Normal: Compression builds up quickly and evenly to the specified compression for each cylinder.
- Piston Rings Leaking: Compression is low on the first stroke. Compression builds up with the following strokes but does not reach normal. Compression improves considerably when you add oil (1 tbsp).
- Valves Leaking: Compression is low on the first stroke. Compression usually does not build up on the following strokes. Compression does not improve much when you add oil (1 tbsp).
- If two adjacent cylinders have lower than normal compression and injecting oil into the cylinders does not increase the compression, the cause may be the head gasket leaking between the cylinders.

Also I doubt it would be injectors but you can check those easily as well. Grab a multimeter and measure resistance of the injectors. They should all be around ~10ohms. If an injector is bad or going out it will be far off from the others (10,000ohms).

It might be worth pulling the rail to see if you have a leaky injector and change out your o-rings. O-rings can be bought from most hardware stores for cheap, just match the size of the old ones.

[Behemoth]

Update!

I ran a compression test, and got the following results.

(1) 145pis : Plug is new. It also has black oil/gasonline on it.
(2) 145psi : Plug has black oil/gasoline on it. Plug is also new.
(3) 145psi : Plug is new. Not too much oil/gasonline on it.
(4) 130psi : Plug is new, but also has oil/gasoline on it. ZFR5D NGK-R

We ran a few more tests. We started up the car and had it run for a bit. My buddy said he heard some "knocking" x[

Took out the spark plug and there was oil/gas on them again.
Letting the engine run doesn't cause much smoke,
but pressing down on the gas pedal produces white smoke.

He suspects that it's the injector pump.

Guidance? Please and thank you!

[jza80king]

Update!

I ran a compression test, and got the following results.

(1) 145pis : Plug is new. It also has black oil/gasonline on it.
(2) 145psi : Plug has black oil/gasoline on it. Plug is also new.
(3) 145psi : Plug is new. Not too much oil/gasonline on it.
(4) 130psi : Plug is new, but also has oil/gasoline on it. ZFR5D NGK-R

We ran a few more tests. We started up the car and had it run for a bit. My buddy said he heard some "knocking" x[

Took out the spark plug and there was oil/gas on them again.
Letting the engine run doesn't cause much smoke,
but pressing down on the gas pedal produces white smoke.

He suspects that it's the injector pump.

Guidance? Please and thank you!

Those seem like low compression numbers, did you happen to put a little oil on the cylinders and re-run the compression test to see if your PSI rises in each piston/cylinder? This will tell you if your rings are toast which sounds like what the issue is. Rings aren't sealing properly and gas is getting to your oil.

[Behemoth]

I didn't do a wet compression test.

[hobbs]

What motor are you having issues with? Since the motor was rebuilt, do you know if it was a OEM rebuild or with forged internals? Also was the compression test done cold or at normal running temps?

[Behemoth]

@hobbs,
The compression test was done cold, the motor is a KA24E, and I'm not too sure about the rebuilt parts, I would assume, since the previous owner was young, that it was not a OEM rebuild.


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[Behemoth]

Can I get a bump? :D

[jza80king]

Do another compression test and try some oil to see if the rings are toast. Also do it with a warm motor, rings expand with heat.

[Behemoth]

I'll do that next weekend.
My buddy told me there's something wrong with the injectors.

Going to research how to test the flow of the fuel injectors.

[jza80king]

My buddy told me there's something wrong with the injectors.

Going to research how to test the flow of the fuel injectors.

No offense to your buddy but the issue is already in front of your face. Low compression. Your rings are not sealing and this is your issue. The factory service manual calls for a KA24E to have a standard 175 psi in each cylinder. The minimum should be no less than 146psi and the maximum difference between cylinders should be less than 14 psi. Don't take the advice if you don't want but your motor is tired with probably a lot of miles and your numbers 145, 145, 145, 130 are out of specification. You said it yourself, the previous owner was young and who knows what parts were used and if the correct rebuild process was followed.

[Behemoth]

Shoutout to @jza80king for helping me see the way.

Alright! So I went BACK to AutoZone to rent a compression tester for a 2nd time.
I learned something valuable....that I was doing the test wrong...
I would only keep the key down for about 3-4 strokes. About half way through my second test, I learned that I'm suppose to keep turning until the pressure won't go any higher...simple physics that I should have thought about....(hindsight now).


2nd set of Test Results:
In order of my test:
[Spark Plug # from front to back of car]----[psi:wet/dry]
[4] [140psi:dry] [135psi:wet] // This test was probably wrong. Didn't hold it down long enough.
[3] [165psi:dry] [190psi:wet]
[2] [165psi:dry] [180psi:wet]
[1] [170/175psi:dry] // Then I started getting weird results.... [150psi:wet] [115psi:wet] [<30psi:wet]

Curious... I retested the [4] cylinder because I believes my results were off
[4] [ < 30psi:wetFromBefore] // I held the key down the longest here.

Why did the psi drop so much? Only thing I could think of was maybe I broke the tool?
Or is there something that happens when you do these tests over and over again, that you need a "cooldown" time for?

Thanks for your help all. I'm a noob.

[jza80king]

I just want to make sure, when you did the tests you held the gas pedal down right?

[Behemoth]

I just want to make sure, when you did the tests you held the gas pedal down right?/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

no.

[jza80king]

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

no.

This explains the whacked out readings. You are supposed to hold the gas pedal to the ground while you crank the car for an accurate reading. Look up 'how to do a compression test' on youtube or download the factory service manual for the correct process. Have your buddy sit in the car with his foot pressing on the pedal like he is flooring it and have him crank the car for about 5-6 seconds while your buddy keeps the pedal floored and you stand over by the hood with the gauge in hand until the gauge reaches it's max reading. After getting a read take note of it. Then I would say to hold the gauge another 20-30 seconds and watch to see if the reading dips slowly. It should hold pretty consistently. After you have all 4 readings, add a small amount of oil maybe a cap full from like a quart of oil in spark plug hole number 1, retest again following the steps above. Then do the same for spark plug hole number 2 add the cap of oil and test. Then the same for 3, and 4 and take note of each reading. Compare the readings with the ones you did before the cap full of oil..... Are the readings a lot better? If yes then you have leaking rings.

[Behemoth]

I really appreciate your patience @jza80king.
If you ever need assistance with computers/networks, hit me up.

Went straight home after work. Here are my tests.
Removed the spark plug wires.
Removed the fuel pump fuse.
(Couldn't find the fuel injector fuse)
Removed the (1) spark plug. Kept the others on because I forget.

(1) 170psi:dry 20 seconds later 160psi:dry
(1) 170psi:dry 20 seconds later 160psi:dry
(1) 160psi:wet
(1) 160psi:wet 20 seconds later 150psi:wet
(1) 180psi:wet 20 seconds later 175psi:wet
(1) 175psi:wet 20 seconds later 170psi:wet

Remove remaining 3 spark plugs
(2) 180psi:dry 20 seconds later 180psi:dry
(2) 180psi:dry 20 seconds later 175psi:dry
(2) 170psi:wet 20 seconds later 165psi:wet

10 revolutions

(2) 190psi:wet 20 seconds later 180psi:wet
(2) 190psi:wet 20 seconds later 180psi:wet
(3) 180psi:dry 20 seconds later 165psi:dry
(3) 180psi:dry 20 seconds later 170psi:dry
(3) 200psi:wet 20 seconds later 180psi:wet
(3) 200psi:wet 20 seconds later 190psi:wet
(4) 180psi:dry 20 seconds later 179psi:dry
(4) 180psi:dry 20 seconds later 179psi:dry
(4) 198psi:wet 20 seconds later 190psi:wet
(4) 200psi:wet 20 seconds later 175psi:wet
(1) 180psi:wet 20 seconds later 170psi:wet

[jza80king]

I really appreciate your patience @jza80king.
If you ever need assistance with computers/networks, hit me up.

Went straight home after work. Here are my tests.
Removed the spark plug wires.
Removed the fuel pump fuse.
(Couldn't find the fuel injector fuse)
Removed the (1) spark plug. Kept the others on because I forget.

(1) 170psi:dry 20 seconds later 160psi:dry
(1) 170psi:dry 20 seconds later 160psi:dry
(1) 160psi:wet
(1) 160psi:wet 20 seconds later 150psi:wet
(1) 180psi:wet 20 seconds later 175psi:wet
(1) 175psi:wet 20 seconds later 170psi:wet

Remove remaining 3 spark plugs
(2) 180psi:dry 20 seconds later 180psi:dry
(2) 180psi:dry 20 seconds later 175psi:dry
(2) 170psi:wet 20 seconds later 165psi:wet

10 revolutions

(2) 190psi:wet 20 seconds later 180psi:wet
(2) 190psi:wet 20 seconds later 180psi:wet
(3) 180psi:dry 20 seconds later 165psi:dry
(3) 180psi:dry 20 seconds later 170psi:dry
(3) 200psi:wet 20 seconds later 180psi:wet
(3) 200psi:wet 20 seconds later 190psi:wet
(4) 180psi:dry 20 seconds later 179psi:dry
(4) 180psi:dry 20 seconds later 179psi:dry
(4) 198psi:wet 20 seconds later 190psi:wet
(4) 200psi:wet 20 seconds later 175psi:wet
(1) 180psi:wet 20 seconds later 170psi:wet


no problem man glad I can help....so just so i'm clear the numbers you listed as (1) (2) (3) (4) these numbers refer to the cylinder you are testing right? What is concerning to me is that in some cases your compression dropped when you added a little oil and it also increased as in the example of cylinder 1 you went from 170 dry to 160 wet to 180 wet. In cylinders 3 and 4 it looks like it increases slightly when you did test from dry to wet. Another concern is the drop in PSI after the 20 seconds in each cylinder. Just looking at the big discrepancies between cylinders in your motor, without knowing what parts were used in the rebuild (OEM, aftermarket, ebay shit made in china) or if the factory service manual was followed, I would guess this rebuild was half-assed. You said that the previous owner told you the motor had issues even right after the rebuild so whoever rebuilt this motor probably didn't use quality parts and/or follow the FSM. Sorry man

[Behemoth]

no problem man glad I can help....so just so i'm clear the numbers you listed as (1) (2) (3) (4) these numbers refer to the cylinder you are testing right? What is concerning to me is that in some cases your compression dropped when you added a little oil and it also increased as in the example of cylinder 1 you went from 170 dry to 160 wet to 180 wet. In cylinders 3 and 4 it looks like it increases slightly when you did test from dry to wet. Another concern is the drop in PSI after the 20 seconds in each cylinder. Just looking at the big discrepancies between cylinders in your motor, without knowing what parts were used in the rebuild (OEM, aftermarket, ebay shit made in china) or if the factory service manual was followed, I would guess this rebuild was half-assed. You said that the previous owner told you the motor had issues even right after the rebuild so whoever rebuilt this motor probably didn't use quality parts and/or follow the FSM. Sorry man

From cylinder (1), I don't think I screwed the gauge on tight enough. :picardfp:
The bold ones are correct. The red ones, I believe the gauge was too loose.

(1) 170psi:dry 20 seconds later 160psi:dry
(1) 170psi:dry 20 seconds later 160psi:dry
(1) 160psi:wet
(1) 160psi:wet 20 seconds later 150psi:wet
(1) 180psi:wet 20 seconds later 175psi:wet
(1) 175psi:wet 20 seconds later 170psi:wet




Your feedback was my assumption as well. I know he fucked up on the engine. I guess I really want to know is it possible to fix this engine without pulling it out again?

[jza80king]

From cylinder (1), I don't think I screwed the gauge on tight enough. :picardfp:
The bold ones are correct. The red ones, I believe the gauge was too loose.

(1) 170psi:dry 20 seconds later 160psi:dry
(1) 170psi:dry 20 seconds later 160psi:dry
(1) 160psi:wet
(1) 160psi:wet 20 seconds later 150psi:wet
(1) 180psi:wet 20 seconds later 175psi:wet
(1) 175psi:wet 20 seconds later 170psi:wet




Your feedback was my assumption as well. I know he fucked up on the engine. I guess I really want to know is it possible to fix this engine without pulling it out again?

Well to do a correct full rebuild (bottom end and top end) you will have to pull the engine yes.... If you were absolutely certain the bottom end (rings, pistons, crank) were good then you could get away with just rebuilding the valve train/cylinder head. Rebuilding just the top end you would not have to pull the whole motor out, just remove both intake/exhaust manifolds and pull the head off. I have rebuilt just the top end before and have had no issues but I was certain the bottom end was in good shape. In your case, due to the numbers you are getting I'm not certain the bottom end in your motor is in good shape so you would have to pull the whole damn motor out. If you are set on pulling the motor to rebuild don't waste your time on rebuilding the single cam motor.... Go with an SR swap or a ka24de. You might be able to find a used motor also just to swap in.

[Behemoth]

I'll probably get a KA24DE then, since it's legal in CA.
One guy selling one on CL, but he say there's a rod knock.
I'm sure that engine is shit and will have to be rebuilt. My question is, if an engine is knocking, is it past saving? At what point does it become past saving?

Post is here if you'd like to see. https://sacramento.craigslist.org/cto/4806938921.html

[blkvrtswp]

A stuck injector will definitely certainly absolutely cause fuel in your oil. Rings do not seal that tightly when the engine is not running. If you are flooding the cyls you will have fuel in your oil - seen it dozens of times, even when compression and rings are perfect.

[jza80king]

I'll probably get a KA24DE then, since it's legal in CA.
One guy selling one on CL, but he say there's a rod knock.
I'm sure that engine is shit and will have to be rebuilt. My question is, if an engine is knocking, is it past saving? At what point does it become past saving?

Post is here if you'd like to see. https://sacramento.craigslist.org/cto/4806938921.html

$300 nah man I would keep looking. I think you could find something that's at least running w/o rod knock for a little more.

[Behemoth]

$300 nah man I would keep looking. I think you could find something that's at least running w/o rod knock for a little more.

This any better?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/96-97-NISSAN-ALTIMA-ENGINE-2-4L-VIN-B-4TH-DIGIT-KA24DE-CALIF-17016-/121495360050?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c49b01232&vxp=mtr#vi-ilComp

[Behemoth]

Jza, can you explain how the numbers lead you to believe it's the lower?

If there is also a injector problem, what should I do next to test it?


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[jza80king]

Jza, can you explain how the numbers lead you to believe it's the lower?

The inconsistency of the compression numbers you pulled leads me to believe that the rings are not sealing. If you had all 4 cylinders at like 180 i'd say you have a good bottom end but since you pulled numbers as low as 170 and as high as 200, 30PSI that is a pretty wide margin. You want to have all 4 within 15 PSI of each other at the most.

If there is also a injector problem, what should I do next to test it?

Although it might be too late, you can try some injector cleaner but this is only a suggestion as it might not work if you have an open injector. As blkvrtswp mentioned, even having great compression you can leak fuel into the oil if you have an open injector. You can try the simple screw driver trick where you get a long screw driver and hold it on each injector, start the car and then listen for clicking on the injector by putting your ear to the top/ball of the screw driver. If you can't hear clicking on the injector, that means it's stuck open most likely. Next it might get a little harder depending on how good you are at electrical stuff. You could do an injector resistance test where you measure ohms for each injector. This requires a multi-meter which you can buy one for under $10 at autozone or any part store. Off the top of my head I think each injector should be like 11-15 ohms but your best option is to get the FSM if you haven't as it will have steps on how to check this. If one injector is way outta spec then you know that one is the problem. Also try searching 'injector resistance testing' on here or in google and you'll find a lot of how to's etc.

The other test is using a Noid light. Basically what a noid light does is you unplug the injector harness off the injector and it will blink to show if an injector wire harness is good or bad. You plug the noid clip on the end of the unplugged harness and start the car and the ECU sends a pulsing signal to the noid light which causes it to blink. If it doesn't blink or it stays lit, then you have a problem with THAT injector harness. You want to test each injector harness 1-4. Check out this video to get an idea of what a noid light does.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MmR-wXddVw

As for the motors, you wanna make sure what you plan on doing either fix this motor you have or actually replace it. If you replace it I really dunno what would be your best option buying something on Ebay or what. Not sure if there are places around you that you can buy a lower mileaged motor or something.

[671!S13dragon]

was car fixed? sounds like the same problem as my car now, my engine is flooding with fuel, but the injectors arent leaking, somthings is telling the ecu to shot more fuel and more fuel.