Willwood BBK for s14's

[Boostage]

Anyone know why they only offer a 4 piston kit for s14's but Honda Civics have both 4 and 6? a Mid 90's eg Hatch or Coupe wieghs far less than an s14 and less likely to fade. is it because they aare fwd and have the Transaxle in the engine bay?

[racepar1]

It'e because Honduh guys suck ass and think that more pistons = more stopping power. A 4-piston caliper is plenty and the amount of stopping power has NOTHING to do with how many pistons the caliper has. Why do you want 6-piston calipers anyways? So you could be rad and tell all your homies about them???

:picardfp:

[Boostage]

No, because my z32 calipers with 12.75 two peice rotors, hawk pads and super blue fade with my 650 lbs 2jz and Borg warner S366. and thats just stopping on the drag strip. Im a little nervous about taking the car to Sebring and putting it on the track for a 20 minute session. even on the street the stopping power isnt impressive.

Im not concerned about Piston count for aesthetics at all! I Just need the car to stop. my buddy who is getting me into road racing has an m3 and had to upgrade to a custom Porsche Brake System. as his stock m3 calpiers with hawk pads and SuperBlue wasnt cutting it. I simply asked about the piston count to find out if anyone had an idea behind their reasoning. if I cared about bling I wouldnt be posting in tech.

[RalliartRsX]

Less to do with piston count, more to do with piston size, and stagger. Also, Pad choice and torque

Recommendation: Get rid of the 300ZX calipers, grab a set of 4 or 6 spot superlite (cheap enough and pad choice is abundant) and use some proper pads. I have a feeling your pad choice is lacking in the higher bite compund

What pad compound are you running??

P.S racepar1, stop being a dick. Simple question the gentleman asked

[Boostage]

Thanks, RalliartRSX, what do you consider to be "good pads"? I am running Hawk HP Plus. first i had a custom setup using the rotors from a 350z track. now those rotrs were 22 lbs each, I thought maybe thats why the car didnt stop, so I upgraded to AMS two peice rotors where were like 10 lbs lighter on each side. then got 7.5" wide fn01rc's that were also about 10 lbs lighter per side. and even with a total of 40 lbs of unsprung weight reduction, the car still doesnt stop. so I know the z32 calipers cant work with a JZ engine up front. at least not with Hawk HP's.

I dont mind changing to a bigger wheel if I need a rotor with more surface area. I just need to know what to get.

EDIT- Also changed tires, Im not near the car now and cant remember, but it is a sticky tire, it was recommeded by another road race buddy.

[Om1kron]

It'e because Honduh guys suck ass and think that more pistons = more stopping power. A 4-piston caliper is plenty and the amount of stopping power has NOTHING to do with how many pistons the caliper has.

Willwood has a 6 piston kit for nissans, it's not popular so the kit must've been taken down. The 6 piston caliper is the exact same size as the 4 piston, it just has smaller pistons.

http://www.fastbrakes.com/v/vspfiles/photos/Wilwood%20240SX%2013-6-2.jpg

There was a thread on this years ago and someone argued that the 6 piston offered a more feedback oriented bite rather than an abrupt stop like the 4 piston kit.

Either or, I have the 4 piston.

I would like a rear option that doesn't require switching to a Z rear brake setup, however it is more expensive than the front brake setup.

[racepar1]

No, because my z32 calipers with 12.75 two peice rotors, hawk pads and super blue fade with my 650 lbs 2jz and Borg warner S366. and thats just stopping on the drag strip. Im a little nervous about taking the car to Sebring and putting it on the track for a 20 minute session. even on the street the stopping power isnt impressive.

Im not concerned about Piston count for aesthetics at all! I Just need the car to stop. my buddy who is getting me into road racing has an m3 and had to upgrade to a custom Porsche Brake System. as his stock m3 calpiers with hawk pads and SuperBlue wasnt cutting it. I simply asked about the piston count to find out if anyone had an idea behind their reasoning. if I cared about bling I wouldnt be posting in tech.

Piston count has NOTHING to do with fade. Fade is all about rotor size, fluid selection, pad selection, and cooling.

What Hawk pass are you running? HPS, HP+, Blues, Blacks...

I would ditch the Super Blue and go with Brembo LCF600+ or Endless fluid.

Do you have any brake ducting? If you're running track events you should have brake ducts to cool the brakes off. If you took the brake ducts off an ALMS car they would overheat their brakes in no-time as well.

Z calipers aren't the best choice either. For THAT kind of power I would bu running at least a 1.25" thick rotor and prebably 13" even if I could. Google "Defsport wilwood setup". Those, combined with DUCTING, should be PLENTY without the stupid 6-piston calipers.

P.S racepar1, stop being a dick. Simple question the gentleman asked

Really, fuck off. Dude posted a dumbass question. If he would have posted his ISSUE and asked for ADVICE it would have gone very differently, more like my second post. But no, dude came up with the ignorant assumption that more caliper pistons = less fade and ran with it.

Besides, being an asshole makes Zilvia more fun...

:fawkd:


EDIT: For the un-informed, the REAL reason why more pistons is better in THEORY is because it distributes the force across the pads more evenly. A lot of calipers actually have larger pistons on the trailing side and smaller on the leading side for the same reason.

[cdlong]

Piston count has NOTHING to do with fade. Fade is all about rotor size, fluid selection, pad selection, and cooling.

And fluid condition. If it's old and half water, it's going to fade easily. Fresh DOT 3 is better than old DOT 5.1.

He's running HP+. Not great, but shouldn't fade so easily.

[Chaluska]

im running CTS-V brembos with evo rotors and Brembo oem pads.. for the street they are incredible. i am not rich enough to track the car though.. cant attest for how they would handle repetitive high temperature stops. the size of the rotor and the pad material is more important than the caliper itself.

[racepar1]

And fluid condition. If it's old and half water, it's going to fade easily. Fresh DOT 3 is better than old DOT 5.1.

He's running HP+. Not great, but shouldn't fade so easily.

Good point, maintaining your brake fluid is essential to limiting fade.

The HP+ should at least work fine to stop the car at the drag strip. They would likely overheat in short order with that kind of power and no ducting on a racetrack though.

the size of the rotor and the pad material is more important than the caliper itself.

True, the ONLY reason that I reccomended he change out the Z calipers is because they use 30mm rotors and I would prefer 32mm (1.25") for better heat soak properties. You could also use the R32 GTR Sumitomo calipers with the 32mm rotors.

[EatRice]

someone has 6 piston envy - wont say who

CS Slotted rotors 21 lbs
Rotora rotors 18 lbs

Stock calipers 9.25 lbs
Rotora calipers 8 lbs

what - everyone in here likes unsprung weight?

I went from

http://i606.photobucket.com/albums/tt144/pbrizio/photo.jpg (http://s606.photobucket.com/user/pbrizio/media/photo.jpg.html)

to
http://i606.photobucket.com/albums/tt144/pbrizio/524598_10151683520200888_1056041177_n.jpg (http://s606.photobucket.com/user/pbrizio/media/524598_10151683520200888_1056041177_n.jpg.html)

and look at

http://i606.photobucket.com/albums/tt144/pbrizio/photo1-1.jpg (http://s606.photobucket.com/user/pbrizio/media/photo1-1.jpg.html)

[RalliartRsX]

What is the price of that Rotora setup EatRice??

Also

[Boostage]

Piston count has NOTHING to do with fade. Fade is all about rotor size, fluid selection, pad selection, and cooling.
They go hand in hand. any application for Wilwood that offers either 4 piston and 6 piston, the six piston version has comes with a bigger rotor. for the record I am willing to get the 6 piston 14" 350z willwood kit if that is what I need.

Now keep in mind the current s14 wilwood kit come swith a 12.9 rotor and 4 pot caliper. and as I mentioned I right now have a 12.75 (only 0.15 smaller) two peice rotor and 4 pot caliper and it will not slow down a 600hp car quick enough. so Im not exactly confident in the standard wilwood kit. would you be?

[e1_griego]

It still sounds like you just need to pick pads that work with what you're trying to do.

If you're going to go do a track day you're going to want something like DTC-60s and some ducting.

[racepar1]

They go hand in hand. any application for Wilwood that offers either 4 piston and 6 piston, the six piston version has comes with a bigger rotor. for the record I am willing to get the 6 piston 14" 350z willwood kit if that is what I need.

Now keep in mind the current s14 wilwood kit come swith a 12.9 rotor and 4 pot caliper. and as I mentioned I right now have a 12.75 (only 0.15 smaller) two peice rotor and 4 pot caliper and it will not slow down a 600hp car quick enough. so Im not exactly confident in the standard wilwood kit. would you be?

:picardfp:

They do NOT go hand in hand, AT ALL. The 6-piston version comes with a bigger rotor, THAT will make the brakes more fade resistant. If you put a 4-piston caliper on that same rotor it would have the same fade characteristics.

TYPICALLY 6-piston calipers may come with bigger rotors, but that doesn't mean that the 6-piston design is doing anything to increase the heat-soak capacity of the braking system. Also a 6-piston caliper may be larger in size and mass than a 4-piston caliper, which may have a small affect on fade, but that's ONLY because it's bigger NOT the design.

You just want the 6-piston brakes to be a badass, just admit it...

[Chaluska]

:picardfp:

They do NOT go hand in hand, AT ALL. The 6-piston version comes with a bigger rotor, THAT will make the brakes more fade resistant. If you put a 4-piston caliper on that same rotor it would have the same fade characteristics.

TYPICALLY 6-piston calipers may come with bigger rotors, but that doesn't mean that the 6-piston design is doing anything to increase the heat-soak capacity of the braking system. Also a 6-piston caliper may be larger in size and mass than a 4-piston caliper, which may have a small affect on fade, but that's ONLY because it's bigger NOT the design.

You just want the 6-piston brakes to be a badass, just admit it...

PFftttt..

6 pistons....

PER SIDE

http://racewerx.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/12-piston-caliper1.jpg

[Boostage]

:picardfp:

They do NOT go hand in hand, AT ALL. The 6-piston version comes with a bigger rotor, THAT will make the brakes more fade resistant. If you put a 4-piston caliper on that same rotor it would have the same fade characteristics.

TYPICALLY 6-piston calipers may come with bigger rotors, but that doesn't mean that the 6-piston design is doing anything to increase the heat-soak capacity of the braking system. Also a 6-piston caliper may be larger in size and mass than a 4-piston caliper, which may have a small affect on fade, but that's ONLY because it's bigger NOT the design.

You just want the 6-piston brakes to be a badass, just admit it...

Incorrect. My z32 brakes with stock 300zx rotors is what started this. When I first had my 1j and 60-1 car couldn't stop. Now I admit, I didnt Have performance fluid but had hawk pads. New lines, new mc, and guess what? The car didn't stop and still faded. I lived with it and did the 2j, this time with the 12.75 track rotors, new pads and super blue. And even with the much bigger rotors and proper break in procedure. It still sucked. No I don't have ducts and will incorporate them going forward. But I don't necessarily believe a 4 pot will perform like a 6 pot. That being said. If I wanted to look badass I would run rotoras on all 4 corners. Or cts-v/z06...

The reason for my inquiry is this. And bare in mind im admitting to not be a brake expert..the civic overall is lighter than a 240. but posibley more front heavy since its drivetrain is up front with the engine. Well I can tell u a 2jz 240 is waaay front heavy!
Stop implying that I'm trying to do this for looks. I didn't even say I was committed to wilwoods. I simply asked why they make two types for the Same application.

[e1_griego]

What are the circumstances that you're fading brakes?

First run at the drags the car won't stop? 10th run?

Are you bedding your pads correctly?

[cdlong]

I simply asked why they make two types for the Same application.

Because they can sell them. That's all.

All things being equal aside from number of pistons, the fade will be the same. Stop trying to use your particular car to make a point, it doesn't work that way. The different scenarios you're describing don't isolate the number of pistons as the variable.

If you have fresh fluid and that system you described, you have an issue somewhere. What rear brakes do you have?

[cdlong]

Are you talking about Wilwood proper (rather than another company with a kit that uses wilwood calipers)? The civic kits they sell use different caliper lines, DynaPro and Forged Dynalite. The kits vary by over $250 and have different characteristics, the DP calipers are stiffer, heavier, and have bigger pads. Different markets, really. They probably do have better fade resistance, but that's due to the pad area and mass of the caliper, not the number of pistons.

[EatRice]

What is the price of that Rotora setup EatRice??

Also

$1500~ from a fellow zilvia member

Yeah bbk's are expensive lol

[nujabe]

lol dude go with the 6 pistons. At this point they are trolling you. 6 pistons will help with brake fade. end of story.

[Teigen]

So lots of piss here. this is the worst forum on the entire web when it comes to writing shit to people asking questions, nothing gentle at all.

Get the 6piston rotora, i promise it will stop your car.


I recently bought the circuit breaker 8 pot from rotora (380mm)

and the brakes are very light, havent measured yet but its not much more than stock

[racepar1]

Stop implying that I'm trying to do this for looks. I didn't even say I was committed to wilwoods. I simply asked why they make two types for the Same application.

I didn't say you wanted it just for looks, I just said you wanted to be a badass. Jeez, can't lighten up and have a little fun?

If you want bigger rotors than what you've got the 6-pot setups are pretty much your only option. I think that's overkill, even with that much power, and simply refining the setup you currently have would be sufficient.

I'm simply saying that if it's fade you're worried about be concerned with the size oof the rotors, not so much how many pistons the calipers have. That's kind of a back-asswards way of thinking, technically speaking.

[Boostage]

Because they can sell them. That's all.

All things being equal aside from number of pistons, the fade will be the same. Stop trying to use your particular car to make a point, it doesn't work that way. The different scenarios you're describing don't isolate the number of pistons as the variable.

If you have fresh fluid and that system you described, you have an issue somewhere. What rear brakes do you have?

I have z32 rears. OK let's not use piston count. That's just me Trying to distinguish smaller vs larger calipers. 968 Porsche brakes are 4 pot and don't fade. The rotor is huge and the caliper is as big or bigger than a 6 pot wilwood.

So clearly overall size matters more than piston quantity. Now that I said this. Answer this..

Why does Wildwood have the same smaller brake system for both the 240 and Honda's but offer only the bigger one to the Honda? Is it out of necessity? Are the Honda guys not finding the smaller one adequate and need a bigger?

[Boostage]

I didn't say you wanted it just for looks, I just said you wanted to be a badass. Jeez, can't lighten up and have a little fun?

If you want bigger rotors than what you've got the 6-pot setups are pretty much your only option. I think that's overkill, even with that much power, and simply refining the setup you currently have would be sufficient.

I'm simply saying that if it's fade you're worried about be concerned with the size oof the rotors, not so much how many pistons the calipers have. That's kind of a back-asswards way of thinking, technically speaking.

What can I do to refine my current setup? So far I know I can run ducting. I recently saw under both my buddies Porsches and the have a factory brake deflector that looks a lot like the SPL one. I'm open to any recommendations on pads and fluid or whatever else you think will make my existing setup work.

[jr_ss]

Motul RBF500 for starters and SS lines all around. The SPL brake deflector would also be a good item to get or fab something like it. You do not need to have a huge deflector, just something to throw more air towards the wheel. You can make the inside of the rotor run too cool with a large deflector. The factory dust shield up front should probably be removed or cut down a lot in your case, it will cause a lot of heat build up and speed up the fading process.

If you want a track proven brake kit, head over to NRR or contact Def on here and ask him about his kits. They use off the shelf Wilwood calipers(which have different size piston areas, to get you to as close to factory bias without having to get a bias adjuster) which are extremely cheap. Pad selection is seemingly endless and are about 1/2-2/3's the cost of factory brake pad replacements.

[fliprayzin240sx]

Since I didnt see it nor it was asked...WHAT BRAKE MASTER CYLINDER ARE YOU RUNNING?

[Boostage]

15/16 z32 also tried another size. Forgot the size

[jr_ss]

What booster do you have? Manual or Auto?

[g00se]

you should try swapping to a better pad before you throw money at a whole new braking system.

you should also include what your current pad selection is and also what tires you are running.

are you overheating your brakes or are you locking it at the end of the drag strip

[racepar1]

What can I do to refine my current setup? So far I know I can run ducting. I recently saw under both my buddies Porsches and the have a factory brake deflector that looks a lot like the SPL one. I'm open to any recommendations on pads and fluid or whatever else you think will make my existing setup work.

VVV What he said VVV

Motul RBF500 for starters and SS lines all around. The SPL brake deflector would also be a good item to get or fab something like it. You do not need to have a huge deflector, just something to throw more air towards the wheel. You can make the inside of the rotor run too cool with a large deflector. The factory dust shield up front should probably be removed or cut down a lot in your case, it will cause a lot of heat build up and speed up the fading process.

I wouldn't recommend the Motul fluid though. I have personally had compressibility issues with their stuff. I like the Brembo and Endless fuid, they are both designed with low compressibility in mind.

I would also recommend REAL brake ducts rather than the stupid deflectors though. Like so:

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj283/racepar1/coilsandducts005.jpg

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj283/racepar1/coilsandducts015.jpg

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj283/racepar1/coilsandducts019.jpg

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj283/racepar1/coilsandducts017.jpg

What booster do you have? Manual or Auto?

This is important. The BEST setup for pedal feel and response that I found for the Sumitomo calipers was the Z/auto dual diaphragm booster with the 1" master. If you run the 17/16 master with the dual diaphragm booster the brakes are very touchy. With the small booster the pedal just feels too hard and unresponsive to me.

[jr_ss]

VVV What he said VVV



I wouldn't recommend the Motul fluid though. I have personally had compressibility issues with their stuff. I like the Brembo and Endless fuid, they are both designed with low compressibility in mind.

I would also recommend REAL brake ducts rather than the stupid deflectors though.

Tons of guys run the Motul fluid over on NRR without issues, but experience is often the best knowledge.

"Real" brake ducts are nice for a track only car, but not always necessary/needed on a "street" car. I think for a street driver car they are a bit much, you'll never get your brakes up to the temperatures to justify installing something like that. The deflectors are just a added benefit, which can still cool the inside of the rotors too much.

This is important. The BEST setup for pedal feel and response that I found for the Sumitomo calipers was the Z/auto dual diaphragm booster with the 1" master. If you run the 17/16 master with the dual diaphragm booster the brakes are very touchy. With the small booster the pedal just feels too hard and unresponsive to me.

I've had good experience with my 15/16's MC and my S14 auto booster. I've never had any desire to change my setup. Then again brake feel is solely ones perspective and preference.

[racepar1]

Tons of guys run the Motul fluid over on NRR without issues, but experience is often the best knowledge.

Yeah, I know LOTS of people that love the Motul stuff. BUT, I've had a bad experience with it and due to that experience I simply cannot recommend it to anyone else. Do't get me wrong, I was abusing the holy hell out of those brakes and it was RIDICULOUS hot that day. It is possible that any fluid would have had issues, but I was using the motul at the time.

"Real" brake ducts are nice for a track only car, but not always necessary/needed on a "street" car. I think for a street driver car they are a bit much, you'll never get your brakes up to the temperatures to justify installing something like that. The deflectors are just a added benefit, which can still cool the inside of the rotors too much.

I'm not really much of a believer of the "deflectors". I'm sure they do something, but I'll just stick to the ducts personally. You are right that too much cooling could actually be detrimental on a street car, but you can always block them off on the street. Really the guy is talking about running a 650hp 240 with a porky 2j under the hood around Sebring. That's a LOT of momentum to slow down and without actual brake ducts I think there will likely still be overheating issues.

I've had good experience with my 15/16's MC and my S14 auto booster. I've never had any desire to change my setup. Then again brake feel is solely ones perspective and preference.

With the 15/16 master and the dual diaphragm booster your pedal should be a little softer then my old setup. It might be a little easier to modulate. Like you said though, it's mostly preference in this discussion. Have you tried the 1" master? I LOVED mine. It seriously felt as though I could do no wrong with the brake pedal.

[Chaluska]

This is important. The BEST setup for pedal feel and response that I found for the Sumitomo calipers was the Z/auto dual diaphragm booster with the 1" master. If you run the 17/16 master with the dual diaphragm booster the brakes are very touchy. With the small booster the pedal just feels too hard and unresponsive to me.


i'm running the 17/16 MBC on an S13 auto booster with my brembo calipers, and it is retarted stopping power. very VERY VERY touchy.

[cdlong]

I have z32 rears. OK let's not use piston count. That's just me Trying to distinguish smaller vs larger calipers. 968 Porsche brakes are 4 pot and don't fade. The rotor is huge and the caliper is as big or bigger than a 6 pot wilwood.

So clearly overall size matters more than piston quantity. Now that I said this. Answer this..

Why does Wildwood have the same smaller brake system for both the 240 and Honda's but offer only the bigger one to the Honda? Is it out of necessity? Are the Honda guys not finding the smaller one adequate and need a bigger?

Define "larger". As you said, the Porsche 4 pots are huge, I'm sure you could find some small 6 pots. Thermal mass and piston count are independent, but you've already agreed to that.

The 240sx vs. Civic thing is purely based on market. There are a lot of guys that race Civics. Racers look for quality parts with cheap wear part replacement costs. 240s, on the other hand are primarily drift cars, fewer of them to begin with, and JDM fan boys would rather buy a Rotora kit than a kit that is cheaper to buy and maintain.

I still think you have an issue with either fluid or pad condition, or brake balance. The only way you should be able to fade big brakes in a single stop is if something is wrong. For reference, what speeds are we talking about at the drag strip, 120-20 mph stop? While track time will be harder on the brakes on average, you won't be slowing down as much for each corner with time to cool the brakes in between stops.

lol dude go with the 6 pistons. At this point they are trolling you. 6 pistons will help with brake fade. end of story.

Thanks for the reminder why I don't post here much anymore. We aren't trolling anyone, just stating facts. Yes, bigger brakes will help with fade, but thinking about a problem instead of throwing money at it with no guarantee of fixing it is the smart thing to do. Feel free to keep filling this forum with mindless junk. I'm out.

[racepar1]

i'm running the 17/16 MBC on an S13 auto booster with my brembo calipers, and it is retarted stopping power. very VERY VERY touchy.

That's exactly my point. If you switched to the 1" master you would have the same stopping power the pedal would just be less touchy and easier to modulate. That is good, not bad. You need to be able to modulate the pedal to brake at the limit without the help of ABS. Touchy brakes lock-up easily, which is a large concern in any driving environment.

[nujabe]

Feelings hurt lol.. Then don't post here any more. Again op car sounds like it makes to much power for the shit improvised brakes you have on the car up grade to some thing bigger simple as that.

[jr_ss]

Feelings hurt lol.. Then don't post here any more. Again op car sounds like it makes to much power for the shit improvised brakes you have on the car up grade to some thing bigger simple as that.

He shouldn't be fading his brakes stopping one time from 120-20, even on his setup, that's the point. There are other issues at work here and the answer isn't to "throw bigger brakes at it". Sure as stated, they would help, but there are cheaper alternatives than putting ridiculous 6pots on a car that doesn't need it.

His car weighs at most 3500lbs with him in it. Do you think the 370Z needs six pots? How about the ridiculously heavy Mustang GT and Camaro SS, do they need them? They don't run them from the factory, I suppose the engineers that designed those cars don't know what they are doing. 6pots fix everything...

[codyace]

The reason for my inquiry is this. And bare in mind im admitting to not be a brake expert..the civic overall is lighter than a 240. but posibley more front heavy since its drivetrain is up front with the engine. Well I can tell u a 2jz 240 is waaay front heavy!

I know this sounds crazy but have you bed the pads correctly? Are you sure it is pad fade and not too aggressive of a pad on a cold rotor?

If we can run 140 out the back door on ford single piston calipers on different shitboxes from the 80's and stop before the sand, I would tend to think you've got the wrong pad compound on the car.


I have z32 rears. OK let's not use piston count. That's just me Trying to distinguish smaller vs larger calipers. 968 Porsche brakes are 4 pot and don't fade. The rotor is huge and the caliper is as big or bigger than a 6 pot wilwood.

Don't look at caliper 'size' either. Big Reds are HUGE, but the pistons are small. Not to mention they are heavy.



Why does Wildwood have the same smaller brake system for both the 240 and Honda's but offer only the bigger one to the Honda? Is it out of necessity? Are the Honda guys not finding the smaller one adequate and need a bigger?

Probably out of the fact that they can 'sell them' and that's about it. They do offer 6 piston setups (my good friend Jim has one his s14) but I can't say it's any better than the 4 piston on my car.


He shouldn't be fading his brakes stopping one time from 120-20, even on his setup, that's the point. There are other issues at work here and the answer isn't to "throw bigger brakes at it". Sure as stated, they would help, but there are cheaper alternatives than putting ridiculous 6pots on a car that doesn't need it.

Well said. I'm willing to bet the car stops better at the drags running the most entry level pad for the caliper.