New Car - Engine Management Question

[skyy]

Im about to pick up an s14 that's been swapped with an s13 blacktop.
The car is running on a Mine's ECU with an SAFC II, and Im not sure how I feel about that setup.

Heres the mod list:

ISIS T28 turbo @ 10 lbs
Mines ecu tuned for 550cc & Z32 MAF
delco 550cc injectors,
Walbro 255 fuel pump,
nismo fpr,
summit fpg,
SAFC II,
Greddy Profec Boost Controller,
HKS Turbo Timer,
XS Power FMIC,
XS Power Tubular Exhuast Manifold,
Koyo Radiator w/ dual efans,
Greddy Catch Can,
Aluminum Coolant overflow
Full 3 in Trust exhaust

I've heard different things about the Mine's and would like to replace it with an Enthalpy or JWT, but I also have a spare sr20 62 ECU laying next to me...and Im not sure if it would be better to run that until the new ECU comes in? Should I scrap the SAFC? Im just going for a clean, reliable setup with about 350hp (planning on replacing the turbo as well), and I dont want any unnecessary things hindering it.

Thoughts?

[Mikester]

Im about to pick up an s14 that's been swapped with an s13 blacktop.
The car is running on a Mine's ECU with an SAFC II, and Im not sure how I feel about that setup.

Heres the mod list:

ISIS T28 turbo @ 10 lbs
Mines ecu tuned for 550cc & Z32 MAF
delco 550cc injectors,
Walbro 255 fuel pump,
nismo fpr,
summit fpg,
SAFC II,
Greddy Profec Boost Controller,
HKS Turbo Timer,
XS Power FMIC,
XS Power Tubular Exhuast Manifold,
Koyo Radiator w/ dual efans,
Greddy Catch Can,
Aluminum Coolant overflow
Full 3 in Trust exhaust

I've heard different things about the Mine's and would like to replace it with an Enthalpy or JWT, but I also have a spare sr20 62 ECU laying next to me...and Im not sure if it would be better to run that until the new ECU comes in? Should I scrap the SAFC? Im just going for a clean, reliable setup with about 350hp (planning on replacing the turbo as well), and I dont want any unnecessary things hindering it.

Thoughts?

Thoughts as follows:

- SCRAP THE SAF-C... Don't even fuck somebody by selling it to them... Throw in garbage. If you listen to anything, please listen to THIS.

- SCRAP HKS turbo timer... Your turbo is liquid-cooled; this is not needed... and there are no good reasons for keeping an additional point of potential failure in your ignition circuit!

- A [Garrett, NOT ISIS] 2871 (.64 a/r) or Tomei M7960 will give you great response, and a very comfortable 350whp. With stock cams, the power curve will be smooth & fat... LOTS of fun!

- Get a Z32 MAFS

- Send either ECU to JWT or Enthalpy.

[skyy]

Thoughts as follows:

- SCRAP THE SAF-C... Don't even fuck somebody by selling it to them... Throw in garbage. If you listen to anything, please listen to THIS.

- SCRAP HKS turbo timer... Your turbo is liquid-cooled; this is not needed... and there are no good reasons for keeping an additional point of potential failure in your ignition circuit!

- A [Garrett, NOT ISIS] 2871 (.64 a/r) or Tomei M7960 will give you great response, and a very comfortable 350whp. With stock cams, the power curve will be smooth & fat... LOTS of fun!

- Get a Z32 MAFS

- Send either ECU to JWT or Enthalpy.

Thank you!!!

I definitely will scrap the safc and the turbo timer (was never a huge fan of either...)

I've already been talking to enthalpy about a ecu.

Ad for the turbo setup, would the 550's be okay with a 2871 or a 7960 @ the boost needed for 350hp? Or would it be better, and less of a headache in the future, to just go for the 740s off the bat?

[RalliartRsX]

If you can run them at 4Bar fuel pressure, they will be good for over 350 WHP. However at 3bar, they max out right at circa 340 WHP

[Mikester]

:squint:

550's will support 350hp demand all day long... They start to maxx out around 380-400 depending on the particulars of the setup.

OP- Since you already have 550's- might as well use them. If you didn't already have them, I would recommend 740's or 850's just to leave some extra room to grow down the road... and don't listen to ^^him^^ about upping your fuel pressure... Stock FPR is good for well over 400hp! For your mods, I can almost guarantee you (like 99.9%) that JWT or Enthalpy's maps for your 'mild' mods will be based on OEM fuel pressure. If for any reason higher than stock pressure is needed, they will let you know~

[RalliartRsX]

Everything I have read (and experienced) point to the 550c maxing out at 340WHP, NOT 380-400WHP

I have a dyno chart as well as my injector duty cycles of my MSD 50lbs (flowed to 530cc) if you would like to see. I was seeing 98%, 97% and 99% at 342WHP, 341WHP and 340 WHP

I maxed out my 50lbs at 340WHP at 13psi on a T3/To4E on stock head, S4 cams, 3" exhaust, etc.

Most injectors like to go static open at anything above 95% duty cycle, hence why I stated what I did!
Static open is bad, and at 350WHP, 550cc are bound to be on the edge!

I think you missed the fact that I said WHP not BHP. 550cc will support close to 380 Flywheel HP.


If you would like info for me to back it up, sure I will post my chart!

Also, OP, this is a good equation to have in mind if you doing HP and fuel calculcations


Engine HP= (Injector flow rate in lb/hr @ 3 bar x 4 (# of injectors) x .8 (duty cycle))/ BSFC

BSFC= Brake specific fuel consumption (how much fuel you use per hour per hp), .5 being a good estimate.

To convert cc/min to lb/hr multiply by 10.5
Just read a little ;)

Cheers and good luck!

[RalliartRsX]

:squint:

550's will support 350hp demand all day long... They start to maxx out around 380-400 depending on the particulars of the setup.

OP- Since you already have 550's- might as well use them. If you didn't already have them, I would recommend 740's or 850's just to leave some extra room to grow down the road... and don't listen to ^^him^^ about upping your fuel pressure... Stock FPR is good for well over 400hp! For your mods, I can almost guarantee you (like 99.9%) that JWT or Enthalpy's maps for your 'mild' mods will be based on OEM fuel pressure. If for any reason higher than stock pressure is needed, they will let you know~

Please do not go on the attack until you have fully read my post

Thanks :hs:

[Mikester]

Dude, not trying to argue... I lived in Japan for 6yrs. 550's, Poncams and the other 'usual' supporting mods made 380-390 all day long with much smaller turbines than T04's... and yes, they were 90+% in duty cycle- but they made it nonetheless... saying 400 in the last post was a stretch for whp, but you'd see it at the flywheel.

Don't get me wrong... I personally wouldn't recommend 550's for 370-380whp... but for a comfy 350, they will work nicely all day long; which is all I was trying to relay to OP. If he's looking at the fun factor of a 2871 (.64a/r) or 7960... That's about all he will see anyway ;)

[RalliartRsX]

Again, read my post

WHP vs Flywheel HP!

If you used the equation, it will support yours (and my) argument!

However, as said before (and I agree with you on this fact Mikester) I would personally NOT run 550s for 370HP+. And my experience is that anything over 95 (or depending on injectors 90%+) percent duty cycle is on the ragged edge.

WHP vs Flywheel HP! You inadvertaintly missed that in my post :)

[Mikester]

^LOL not attacking anyone... Appears we were both typing at the same time :)

Maybe I'm doing something wrong in that formula. I assume he meant divide by 10.5 to convert cc/min to lb/hr, not multiply?

Given that I got this based on the estimate of .5 BSFC & full duty cycle.

Ehp = (550/10.5)(4)(1) / .5

Ehp = 419

Drop about 30-40 ponies for power lost in the engine-to-wheels transfer: 379-389 at maxx duty (most I've seen typically were at about 380). Thank you for providing this... I had no idea how to express it mathematically- I just knew that I had seen it time and time again on SR-mobiles in Japan.

Redo the math for high 80th to 90th percentile... and voila- cozy 350-ish at the wheels without killing injectors.

[RalliartRsX]

Yes, you are correct in your Math (as far as multiplication vs division. My apologies!)

HOWEVER, 100% duty cycle is an area NO ONE should ever explore as a few things happen (and some could be catostrophic). I could explain it, but I will let a few more informative statements give you the simple run down (which I figured you are aware of as I have seen your build thread :) )

Base pulse width goes thru the roof once the injectors go static. The ECM can't command any more fuel but keeps trying (or in essence, the injectors cannot give any more fuel).......In addition to other wacky things associated with the ECU, static open injectors and having inconsistent fueling while in boost/closed loop

At 100% and in most cases anything about 90-95%, all sorts of craziness start to happen, and just because it worked for you for whatever time, DOES NOT automatically translate to mean it will work across the board (not attacking you, but just information for the masses ;) )

However, if you are simply looking at the math and not real life, your numbers are "correct"

Cheers!

[Mikester]

Dude I can totally dig what you're saying. My point is that he can have 350ish to the wheels without running his injectors past 90ish%. And it isn't like he will constantly be skirting the threshold from startup to shutdown. Hitting 90+% in spurts isn't necessarily a death sentence.

He already has a set of 550's; so why not use them? The Power FC out of box tune enables full duty on the stock injectors. If it were THAT BAD to hit 100% here & there, I doubt it would come to consumers with that function factory-enabled.

I do not disagree whatsoever. But in this case- you gotta admit... Bang for buck, a better turbo, a Z32 MAFS and tune added to those 550's would be the best way to go.

[Mikester]

Btw I do know that going past 95% regularly is not good for injector life...

When I started, I went to 850's from the get-go... But only because my sights have always been set on 400-450. and also because I didn't already have a set of 550's in the car when I got it ;)

Great info for the masses...

[jr_ss]

There is a difference in flows with high vs low impedance injectors as well, so keep that in mind.

All the newer injectors can flow into the 90%+ duty cycle and not have an issue. If you want some legit injectors, go with ID's they pretty much kick anything else on the market to the curb.