Iraqi prison scandal...

[SimpleS14]

I'm surprised no one has made a thread yet about this subject. I hear it everyday that now I just had to rant about it....

anyways...I just think Bush, his administration and America's image is royally fucked (IMO).

To the eyes of some people (nations)...America was viewed rather negatively...but now that some is turning to most. Meh...I don't know what else to say..but here is something I read that caught my attention...


While the world already has been horrified by pictures of American soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners, the Pentagon warns there are many more photos and videos that have not been disclosed.

They show ''acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhuman,'' embattled Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told Congress.

From the White House to Capitol Hill, policy-makers are worried that the United States faces lasting damage abroad - particularly in the Middle East - from the pictures of naked Arab men being tortured and humiliated by American soldiers, the same forces sent to Iraq to liberate the country from Saddam Hussein's torture and repression.

They show ''acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhuman,'' embattled Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told Congress.

Analysts describe the pictures as great recruiting tools for al-Qaida and other extremist groups and said they undermine America's claims to a moral high ground. Rumsfeld said the impact was ''radioactive.''

Bush, in his weekly radio address Saturday, said, ''They are a stain on our country's honor and reputation.'' He said the abuses were the work of a few and do not reflect the overall character of the 200,000 members of the U.S. military who have served in Iraq in the past year.

Six months from the November elections, Iraq weighs heavily on the president.

April was the deadliest month yet for American soldiers in Iraq and May is off to a bloody start.

On the diplomatic front, the administration does not know who will take power in Iraq from the United States in a June 30 handover.

Costs are soaring. The administration has sent Congress an unexpected $25 billion request for Iraq and Afghanistan.

Day after day, the extraordinary apologies from the president and his top deputies dominated the news.


I just wonder why the hell someone would be so stupid to document such a thing...let alone act it out. :-/ NOTE: I'm aware that crap like this happens in other parts of the world....but why from someone that was against such acts?

[Phlip]

Remember when we were kids (those of us that aren't STILL kids) on summer vacation all of the shit that we would do just because we could? We threw rocks at shit we KNEW we shouldn't, we went to the store and stole shit, we set shit on fire, lord knows WHERE or upon what we pissed... Now think about it, there was always this ONE kid that had such an influence on the group that what he said became what everone did. We all knew what we were doing was at the very least wrong and at the most REALLY fucked up, but you know what? We didn't think we would be caught and dammit it was FUN, that's why we kept doing it. I am damn sure these aren't the first ones to abuse prisoners of war in this same very manner, nor will they be the last. They do it because they can and because someone before them did the same shit and got away with it. These braintrusts just did themselves the favor of committing their acts to an incriminating medium and they will be punished for it. Sure this is a knock against the current administration and their handling of the war and all that goes with that and will hurt them some come election time but, however unfortunately, they probably have some ither bullshit in store to return themselves to the favor of the American majority. (I refuse to call it the "American public" because I, for one, will not be voting for Bush) It will likely be on the same level of playing on the parranoia of the american public or challenging anything against their will as being unpatriotic or some other brand of bullshit. Hell, the prices of gas have been jumping here lately, my guess is that they will fall quite a bit right around election time, only to spike again first of the year....

*steps down from the soapbox*

[S14DB]

Remember when we were kids (those of us that aren't STILL kids) on summer vacation all of the shit that we would do just because we could? We threw rocks at shit we KNEW we shouldn't, we went to the store and stole shit, we set shit on fire, lord knows WHERE or upon what we pissed... Now think about it, there was always this ONE kid that had such an influence on the group that what he said became what everone did. We all knew what we were doing was at the very least wrong and at the most REALLY fucked up, but you know what? We didn't think we would be caught and dammit it was FUN, that's why we kept doing it.
No, Can't remember doing BS like that. To busy with the GameBrick.

[Phlip]

To busy with the GameBrick.
Yeah, that and jerking off, I forgot that some people actually lead lives to learn from mistakes and some sit in the house and don't do shit, thanks for the reminder.

[Matt_240]

did you guys hear what they did? they filmed them naked and forced them to masturbate. and thats just whats on the news. who knows what else they made them do.

im wondering how the hell they got away with doing that?

[MakotoS13]

a- this thread is in no way unique

b- i think phlip pretty much nailed it.

what bothers me is all the americans doing the same thing as other countries that hate us just cuase they think it's cool. what's worse is that noen of these people realize that this isn't near as bad as the stuff that the bad guys do all the time.

[SimpleS14]

PHLIP - You have a very good point...I know very well ish like this happens elsewhere and doing ish just cause everyone else is doing it can be the cause of this. I just don't see why they documented it....if they didn't they probably could have easily gotten away with it.



EDIT: fudge it....they weren't thinking

[Phlip]

a- this thread is in no way unique

Yeah, but to the defense I am, the other thread (http://www.zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=52896) has a name that doesn't make one easily recognize it...


im wondering how the hell they got away with doing that?
Answers to that question can be found here (http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IRAQ_PRISONER_ABUSE?SITE=NCGRE&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT) and here (http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IRAQ_BUMBLING_BATTALION?SITE=NCGRE&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT)

[ICKY]

Amazing what a video tape can do to a country eh? :doh: I dont want to get off topic alittle bit here but... what about the americans that were burned alive n beatn in the streets? Why isnt that on the news everyday? Cuz the media is all left wing, most of them anyway. Im not saying what those soldiers did was right. Cuz it was infact, ****ed up. Anything can happen in a war. But the media is just out to get Bush. Just because of what a few soldiers did they blame someone who couldnt do ANYTHING about it i.e. Bush and the Administration. I dont normally watch CNN or FOX News or any of those. I think they are all BS. I support the soldiers that are there in iraq, and i feel sorry for them that they have to get bashed by the media and other countries. Not to mention their own american public doesnt like them. But yeah, bottom line, those soldiers should be punnished accordingly and so should all others that follow.

[mbmbmb23]

Lets see here......its ok if the Iraqi rebels burn americans and string up their charred bodies over bridges....but it's not cool if we humiliate them on tape/film in order to get them to talk? One of the number one ways to make the prisoners crack is to have women in the military lead them around and guard them....and heaven forbid do stuff like in those pictures. The only reason it's such a big deal is because all the liberals in Washington that hate Bush are just looking to turn this into another Veitnam......they'd rather lose the war in Iraq if it means they win the White House. It's sad really.



-m

[cali240sxdrifter]

Yeah, but to the defense I am, the other thread (http://www.zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=52896) has a name that doesn't make one easily recognize it...



Answers to that question can be found here (http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IRAQ_PRISONER_ABUSE?SITE=NCGRE&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT) and here (http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IRAQ_BUMBLING_BATTALION?SITE=NCGRE&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT)


your always on the dot Phlip, i like that hehe... i remember doing shit like that, breakin windows, stealing gum, hell even picking on other kids... it was fun, but wrong, we get caught, well I did and i got my punishment, so i learned. Only way the soldiers are going to learn is by punishment, cause well we the so call "america" have to conduct ourselves with honor while the rest of the government act like dicks.

Yes, everyone is taking this way overboard, but punishment is needed.

[stealthj]

Why are we in this war again?....

[ICKY]

:werd: I'd say jez drop a few nukes :rl: and get it over with. :naughtyd:
And all those who oppose, drop one on them. LoL.

[SimpleS14]

Why are we in this war again?....

Because they can, they want to, and they think it will put some spark in the economy.

:werd: I'd say jez drop a few nukes :rl: and get it over with. :naughtyd:
And all those who oppose, drop one on them. LoL.

:mepoke:

[Phlip]

Because they can, they want to, and they think it will put some spark in the economy.

It DID put a spark in the economy, didn't you hear? The price of gas spiked to over 2.00 a gallon in GEORGIA... I have an uncle down in decatur telling me that 93 octane was 2.07/gallon at the mobil station down the street from his house... Someone is benefitting from this shit, while it damn sure is not any of us

[Replicant_S14]

Amazing what a video tape can do to a country eh?

Ya.
Not much humor in the situation but I talked to my nephew over the weekend and he related some funniness. He's a USMC interrogator in iraq right now. He's aware of what's going on and doesn't like it any more than the rest of us but the funny thing is, he was talking to some iraqi dudes (he's fluent arabic because of his job). Just regular guys, not prisoners. They were all sitting around kidding him about treating the prisoners too good. :duh: They were saying stuff like "why don't you just beat them?" and "you could electrocute them, right?". He was just laughing at them saying: "no, no we aren't supposed to do stuff like that". One of the older iraqis said: "no wonder they aren't telling you anything. You're treating them too nice!".

Anyway, I thought it was kinda funny to get another perspective.

[Phlip]

http://images.ucomics.com/comics/bo/2004/bo040510.gif

[cali240sxdrifter]

^^^ :hahano: HAHAHA, ohman finally a comic that I did understand from you.

[blackconvertible]

the fact that those idiots took pictures and video taped them doing wierdo things is a stupid mistake that those weekend warriors made. do not stereo-type the active duty soldiers. i am not in agreement for what they did. they are dumbasses. the iraqis have done much much worse to our soldiers and to their own people. what really happened to Jessica Lynch? that is her business but i garauntee it wasn't nice. has anyone heard of a Navy pilot by the name of Commander Stryker? he was shot down in the first war. we knew he ejected. iraqi defectors stated that they had seen him and he did survive the crash. where is he? i have zero sympathy for the prisoners. i have several friends over there right now and i have spoken with a friend who has recently returned from there. he had been on sight after an IED (Improvised Explosive Device) had exploded and killed a few soldiers. it had been detonated by remote. remotes devices normally work from close range and everyone knew that the bastard that had detonated the device was close and was probably watching. these are not nice people. if anyone doubts if we are doing a good job over there think about this, the next time you see those ungrateful idiots protesting the US occupation in iraq. be glad that they are protesting because, that is a sign of a free country and if we were not there they would not even attempt a protest or a rally because they might be put in prison and naked pictures of them might be taken right before they were executed.

[RedlineRacer]

I am getting so tired of this. I hate the media and all the liberals. Bush is on of the best presidents we have ever had. He has the balls to do what he says, unlike our former communist president. The media and all the people protesting the war and what we are doing in Iraq need to to STFU and let Bush and his administration do their job. If we had Gore in office, we would have never went to war and the Iraqi people would still be in slavery and the terrorist groups would probably still be planning on another 9/11.

My barber was telling me the other day that he had a soldier come in his shop that had just got back from Iraq. He said he was part of the force that seized saddam's mansions. He said that one he walked into had a basement downstairs with all kinds of torture devices. One was a bed that had straps that would strap a persons head, arms, and legs down. Then they would turn on a slow Sulfuric Acid drip to drop on the persons forhead, chest and arms. As it ran down their face, chest and arms it would slowly eat away your flesh and be a slow and painful death. That is torture. What we are doing to the prisoners in Iraq is just embarrassment. Until the american soldiers start using methods like that of turture, then I say STFU.

[Var]

i still cant believe this made the news. :jerkit:

[95Blue240sx]

recent knews

CAIRO, Egypt — A video posted Tuesday on an Islamic militant Web site showed the beheading of an American civilian in Iraq, and said the execution was carried out by an Al Qaeda affiliated group to avenge the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119615,00.html

[1993240]

your dead on with the oil prices. OPEC just voted to up production. It will take all summer until we see that reflected on the pump.

I guess its not news that those interagation techniques are used its just that we are using them against the people we are trying to liberate. I dont even need to think about what happens in our own US prison system or police holding cells. The are just "taking orders" right? You should try and find the transcript for when Rumsfeld took the blame for this. Its pretty funny shit. " I take full blame for this.. Im at the top of the chain of command." Well what is the chain of command mister Rumsfeld? "Im umm... Im not sure, but I apologize."


Hey, we will be out of there soon enough, hopefully. Limited sovereignty, isnt that what we gave the Natives? Ha maybe the indigenous peoples are finally learning that the white man is a conquerer? Casino getaways and resorts in Iraq? they do have some areas with real nice climates and plenty of cultural history.

[carnal_c30]

In my opinion I dont believe Bush thinks about the long term affects of what he does, and he adds too much religion into his politics... some devoute Christian, publicly preaching while his armies are invading Iraq, a muslim country

how would we feel if Saddam Hussein came to 'liberate' us from exploitation, unfair tickets, corrupt law enforcement :D all the while he preaches about his God and how it is God's will to come in here and take us over... I'd react pretty strongly to that... I guess the Iraqi's are too

[ICKY]

[/QUOTE]I guess its not news that those interagation techniques are used its just that we are using them against the people we are trying to liberate.[/QUOTE]


These are prisoners! It means they did something wrong to be in there. As for the interagation techniques, it is more effective against the muslims if they are humiliated. Those people are not afraid of death. What can we do? Humiliate them and see if they will talk. To the muslims, being humiliated is more harsh than being killed. Why do you think they become suicide bombers? Because they dont fear death. It sounds funny to me, but i think now i understand why my father hates the anti-war protesters and librals. They are indeed ruining this country imho. If we had the present american public back in WWII, we would've lost that war and we would all be either slaves, or a bunch of soap bars. :Ownedd: The media is an enemy to this country. There is a book called "The Enemy Within" from Michael Savage. If any of you have spare time or like to read books, i would recomend this book highly. I have not read it myself. But a man who i respect and trust with my life, my father, has read this book, i suggest the same to you all.

[RedlineRacer]

In my opinion I dont believe Bush thinks about the long term affects of what he does, and he adds too much religion into his politics... some devoute Christian, publicly preaching while his armies are invading Iraq, a muslim country

how would we feel if Saddam Hussein came to 'liberate' us from exploitation, unfair tickets, corrupt law enforcement :D all the while he preaches about his God and how it is God's will to come in here and take us over... I'd react pretty strongly to that... I guess the Iraqi's are too

Obviously you believe the media too much and can't think for yourself. Bush did not put us in the war on some kind of ego trip. The Iraqi people have been persucecuted for decades by a ruthless tyrant. We have it all too easy in the US. We bitch and moan about taxes being too high or the economy being a little lower than normal, while the Iraqi people would plead and beg just to have the basic necessities. The American people (and the rest of the world) need to take and trip to Iraq and really see whats going on. You will not see anti-american protest on the streets but rather thumbs up from everyone around. They love Americans and Bush, but the media will not show it. I don't understand the media. When we first entered this war the media praised Bush and fully supported him. Now that he has succeeded, they bash him and criticize him. WTF?

[adey]

Bush is on of the best presidents we have ever had....I have a feeling these will be, to all who believe it, famous last words somewhere down the line!

If you (anyone who believes what Bush is doing is "right" or "good" or "necessary" or "justified" or anything along those lines) have conversed with someone who's knowledgable about the middle east (and I don't necessarily mean someone like Bernard Lewis or other Orientalists), you'd realize just what a disaster we're setting ourselves up for. :-/

As far as the middle east goes, we've really, really done ourselves in.

[adey]

Bush... adds too much religion into his politics... some devoute Christian, publicly preaching while his armies are invading Iraq, a muslim country
It doesn't help that he used the term "crusade"... which doesn't go over well in the Middle East ("Western Asia")... think... the Crusades. :ugh:
Wait a minute... wasn't the US supposed to have a secular government? :rolleyes:

[Phlip]

I am getting so tired of this. I hate the media and all the liberals. Bush is on of the best presidents we have ever had. He has the balls to do what he says, unlike our former communist president.

NEWSFLASH (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=communism) I will be 25 in 6 weeks and none of the 5 presidents to have served in MY life have been communist... It's high time you check your facts, when Clinton was in office, gas was cheap, people worked (and kept those jobs), terrorism was NOT a DAILY discussed issue, even though it is now being presented as a far more issue than it can be credibly proved to be... Balls to do what HE says? Bush has the balls to do what his advisors say, like EVERY president before him, do balls make one's actions the right thing to do? I got balls to punch a perfect fucking stranger in the face, turn and kick them in the nuts and go on about my day, is that right? Next I want to address your use of the word "liberal" in your description of the media and those who pay attention to it (and you say everyone else reads too much into the media, where'd you learn that word?) let's take a second and look at the definition (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=liberal) of the word liberal, then look at it's antonym (opposite), which is "conservative..." (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=conservative) Now if "liberal" means that someone supports change, allowing something to grow and "conservative" means to support traditional values, opposing change, how is this very media that you crucify as being opposed to this so-called "greatest president ever" liberal? The media, be it print, television, internet, radio, etc... has a job, that job is to get people to pay attention. See, we live in a capital (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=capitalism) society, and their ability to make YOU pay attention, be it good or bad attention, generates ad revenue for them and at the end of the day they won't give a fuck if you agree or disagree with what you reported.

Let's play a game I like to play, I call it "timeline"

09/11/01 - They sold the idea of how terrible the attacks on the trade center was, then they sold the idea of how patriotic it was to be there helping, America was glued to the television, they made a killing on ad revenue.
Post 09/11 - Now it's time to sell anti-terrorism propaganda and at the same time use all these people who all of a sudden became actively American to sell more ad revenue and a couple hundred million American flags at the same time.
09/11/02 - Let's sell today as a commemorative to all the people who died in the tragic attack on the towers at the hands of those terrorists, and at the same time these people will watch all the commercials, be it through teary eyes, fuck it, we got paid.
Jan-Mar/2003 - Okay, it's time to liberate Iraq, after all, people are beginning ot get bored with "God bless america" and 09/11-speak, we need something to get these people to watch TV and catch these commercials people are paying for.
March/03 - Nationally televised war, "Watch Iraq torn to shit LIVE ON CABLE!!! DAMN ISN'T THAT BUSH GREAT?!!?"
11/03 - Soldiers that have been separated from their families for several months now will now have to spend more time away from them, how long is this war, stated to have been "over" 7 months now supposed to last, how many lives will be lost?
**see how the media will turn on you to generate personal capital**
UNTIL
12/14/03 - OH SHIT, THIS JUST IN, AMERICAN SOLDIERS HAVE FOUND SADDAM HUSSEIN ALIVE HIDING IN A LITTLE BULLSHIT BUNKER, SEE HOW THE MIGHTY HAVE FALLEN?!!?
*weeks later* Saddam still hasn't said shit, probably won't, no WMDs have been found, no credible links to Al-Qaeda have been found and fighting is still going strong, with an escalating number of lives civilian and soldier, American and Iraqi are being lost.

Now come forward to the last few weeks, there are more lives being lost, MORE American civilians there just trying to do a fucking job are being executed live on the internet, American soldiers treating prisoners they are only supposed to be watching and possibly questioning like shit. Granted, there are (or were, before this leaked out) probably more prisoners being treated like ass, hell it even happens here, it's just that no one has been dumb enough to film themselves doing it... Do I agree with this war? No, I do not, will I be realistically pursuaded to change this stance, I COULD be, but it is unlikely. Do I blame my stance on the spin the media has placed on it? No, I place my stance on common sense and I realize that the media will switch sides as it becomes convenient to them to do so...


... Long winded, I know but I will step off of my soapbox for now, I am on Yahoo messenger and open for PMs if anyone wants to hear me rant further.

[RedlineRacer]

Phlip, I agree with most of what you said. But your definition of a liberal is only the dictionaries definition. It left out unethical, immoral, and corrupt. Clinton was a communist. He sold many of our military secrets to our enemies. He shut down many of our military bases and weaken us severely. He sold out information on our intellegence agents in other countries to only have them killed. He should be in jail for treason. You should also know, that the president has very little control over our economy. Just be cause gas prices and unemployment were low, and terrorist threats were non-existant doesn't mean dick when it comes to the president.

Anyhow, the media had no business broadcasting the pictures and movie of the prisoners. If they hadn't, the innocent american civialian wouldn't have be-headed.

[MakotoS13]

which brings up an interesting point:

we pull fratboy pranks on them

they decapitate somebody

we're supposed to hold some kind of higher standard? that's freaking stupid. i'm tired of everyone tellin me that america should be some kind of big brother that forgives everyone else while we take it up the tailpipe. this country pisses on morals until we go into a war and then our soldiers are supposed to be morally superior instead of warriors. i say enact the old roman ways. for every one of us they kill we kill ten of them. stuff would quiet down real fast...

[Phlip]

Phlip, I agree with most of what you said. But your definition of a liberal is only the dictionaries definition. It left out unethical, immoral, and corrupt. Clinton was a communist. He sold many of our military secrets to our enemies. He shut down many of our military bases and weaken us severely. He sold out information on our intellegence agents in other countries to only have them killed. He should be in jail for treason. You should also know, that the president has very little control over our economy. Just be cause gas prices and unemployment were low, and terrorist threats were non-existant doesn't mean dick when it comes to the president.

Anyhow, the media had no business broadcasting the pictures and movie of the prisoners. If they hadn't, the innocent american civialian wouldn't have be-headed.
Unethical? You mean like selling the american public an unverified story to start a war? What about changing that story when the holes in the original began to show? Corrupt? Were you old enough to vote last election? allow me to introduce another definition into this as it relates to the way shit went down in florida the last election... That word is nepotism (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=nepotism), and you tell me Clinton was corrupt...
Anyhow, if the media had no business showing the pictures of what was done to the iraqi prisoners, they ALSO had no business showing the twin towers live on television, they had no business showing Baghdad being bombed to shit, they had no business showing ANYTHING... Innocent civilians will be lost on both sides of this war, think of how many Iraqi citizens have died in this bullshit. Do they have any less a right to live than anyone else? These fucks would have gutted someone eventually, like they haven't done it before and will kill more people, unfortunately this one was broadcast to show off in retaliation to the tapes of what was done to the Iraqis, which was also on tape. You have a serious issue you need to address if you feel this was the first american civilian life to be lost over there, check even more if you feel the media was the only reason he died and have yourself committed if you feel it will be the last.

[S14Speed997]

Democrats need to accept that they lost that f-in election in Florida...It came down to a hand count, and they still can't accept it. They want Bush out of office, and "The Daily Show", and any other democratic based media group is going to make him look bad...If he can't get the economy back up, crucify him...If we go to war, crucify him...Someone has to police this world, or it will open the door for dictators like Saddam...Thats why we had to go to war, not some conspiracy theory hidden in searching for "Weapons of Mass Destruction"..

As far as soldiers taking photos of naked Iraqis, there's always idiots. So you have some soldiers pissed off about being overseas, and get ammusement out of embarrasing enemy soldiers. They will be court marshalled, and dealt with. That is minor compaired to our soldiers being tortured..

[SimpleS14]

Just saw the video of the guy getting beheaded :-/ It REALLY pisses me off with how fucked up those people are over there....actually this whole scandal thing is blown out of proportion(sp?)...we look like pansies compared to what horrid things they are doing. DAMN I'M SO UPSET NOW!!!! :madfawk:

I would have linked the vid....but its mos def not work safe and I dunno if I would get banned for posting it. :bite:

[RedlineRacer]

Phlip, I never said he was the only american civilian killed over there. But, his death would have never been like that if the media didn't start this bullshit. And the reason why we haven't found weapons of mass destruction is because the government will not release that info. Thats the problem with this whole situation. The media wants to expose everything the military does even if it ruins our intelligence program. All they want is a story. All americans and the rest of the world want is the truth, and our media isn't providing it.

[Phlip]

Democrats need to accept that they lost that f-in election in Florida...It came down to a hand count, and they still can't accept it.
I don't recall ever having claimed a political party, because last time I checked there wasn't one that ever made complete fucking sense to me, I didn't vote for Gore either... But let's talk about that "hand count," wasn'ty it ruled that the hand count was to NOT take place the election stood as it was?

The media wants to expose everything the military does even if it ruins our intelligence program. All they want is a story.
I don't disagree with that, my dissertation from yesterday said the same damn thing, they want you to watch television and not listen to that dick in the barber shop who thinks he knows everything...

...and with that being said...

All americans and the rest of the world want is the truth, and our media isn't providing it.
You aren't going to get the truth from your guy in the barbershop, you get the amount that he knows about his side of it, which you will use to form YOUR subjective opinion. I will use what I use to form my own subjective opinion, but you have the media cooked up to be this big evil animal up in the woods only there to tear down civilization and somewhere underneath all of this shit, your pressident is right and can't be wrong, because he has BALLS and isn't a communist in your definition of the word.

[Modern Angel]

And the reason why we haven't found weapons of mass destruction is because the government will not release that info. Thats the problem with this whole situation. The media wants to expose everything the military does even if it ruins our intelligence program. All they want is a story. All americans and the rest of the world want is the truth, and our media isn't providing it.


Your hypothesis that the military/government has found WMD's in Iraq but are simply hiding the information from the public is ludicrous. Rest assured that as soon as anything close to being a WMD is found the Bush administration is going to tell us. The fact that no WMD's have been found has been a big embarressment for Bush.

The media is certainly quite biased, and in different ways. It's not all "liberal". Fox News, for instance, has a rather conservative bent to their news reporting. NBC is owned by GE which is one of the largest corporations in the world and one of the largest suppliers of military hardware in the US. So obviously GE would have a bit of an interest in having a war in Iraq because they're gonna make a good chunk of $$$ out of it. War is hell for the average person but means a nice boost in profits for the rich men in suits who don't even fight.

Anyway, the point is that the news is out there.. the "truth is out there" and it's being reported everyday. You just have to make an effort to find it. It's not that hard really to get. But if you're just gonna get your news spoon-fed to you by a half-hour network or CNN newscast then, no, you're never gonna get the whole story. It's impossible to cram everything into, what, 10 minutes? Because you still need to leave room for the weather, sports, and some lame-ass human interest story about how some local kid is helping old people or some shit. :)

So, yeah, if you really care about what's going on in the world you have to put in some work for yourself. Like anything in life. You can't expect to have "the truth" handed to you by the same corporate/government behemoth whose only interest is to have the American public keep buying their products, whatever they may be. It's in the government/corporations best interest to have people worry more about whether Kobe Bryant is going to go to prison or if their favorite sports team won than to think about what's actually going on with the lives/hopes/dreams of fellow humans around the globe. Or the real motives behind the actions of their leaders or any number of things that, if enough people really stopped to think about it, would change the status quo.

Sure, Saddam was horrible, horrible man and his regime did some super-crappy stuff. Iraq is better off without him. But there are many other horrible dictators in the world who have done equally as bad things. Why don't we have the US go around and "liberate" all of those countries as well? Could it be because they don't have the geographic and economic significance of Iraq? Really, think about it... at the end of the day do you think our government would spend upwards of 200 billion dollars just to "free" a country? No. They're doing it to secure access to some of the largest reserves of oil in the world and to have a large base from which to project American influence across the Middle East. Even if/after Iraq becomes an independent country we're going to do everything we can to make sure that it's one that's friendly to the United States. This was was not about WMD's and it was not about "liberating" Iraq. It was about extending and increasing the power of the United States of America.

Saddam had no real power to screw with the US and his country was a wreck. We still haven't found Osama Bin Laden after almost 3 years! The guy is lugging a friggin' dialysis machine around moutain caves and he can still evade the US military. Ugh.

The War on Terror is a war we cannot win, just like the War on Drugs. We would be better off putting our efforts into combating the real reasons behind why so many people harbor such deep hatred of the United States instead of merely dealing with the symptoms of that hatred. There will never be a day when everyone will love the US and there will be no more terrorists just as there will never be a day when people want to stop doing drugs.

I think we should have a War on Bad Weather because I've been really getting tired of how mother nature has been pushing the US around with all these storms and shit... :) heh.. whatever. I'm just rambling now. If anyone actually reads all this then you rock. :D

[Phlip]

If anyone actually reads all this then you rock. :D
Actually I DID read all of that and YOU rock... I have posted now 8 times in this thread (not counting this one) and you have helped to articulate the VERY things I have said and I greatly appreciate it, I now have no further reasonings to post in this issue...

[tsunami0ne]

Your hypothesis that the military/government has found WMD's in Iraq but are simply hiding the information from the public is ludicrous. Rest assured that as soon as anything close to being a WMD is found the Bush administration is going to tell us. The fact that no WMD's have been found has been a big embarressment for Bush.

The media is certainly quite biased, and in different ways. It's not all "liberal". Fox News, for instance, has a rather conservative bent to their news reporting. NBC is owned by GE which is one of the largest corporations in the world and one of the largest suppliers of military hardware in the US. So obviously GE would have a bit of an interest in having a war in Iraq because they're gonna make a good chunk of $$$ out of it. War is hell for the average person but means a nice boost in profits for the rich men in suits who don't even fight.

Anyway, the point is that the news is out there.. the "truth is out there" and it's being reported everyday. You just have to make an effort to find it. It's not that hard really to get. But if you're just gonna get your news spoon-fed to you by a half-hour network or CNN newscast then, no, you're never gonna get the whole story. It's impossible to cram everything into, what, 10 minutes? Because you still need to leave room for the weather, sports, and some lame-ass human interest story about how some local kid is helping old people or some shit. :)

So, yeah, if you really care about what's going on in the world you have to put in some work for yourself. Like anything in life. You can't expect to have "the truth" handed to you by the same corporate/government behemoth whose only interest is to have the American public keep buying their products, whatever they may be. It's in the government/corporations best interest to have people worry more about whether Kobe Bryant is going to go to prison or if their favorite sports team won than to think about what's actually going on with the lives/hopes/dreams of fellow humans around the globe. Or the real motives behind the actions of their leaders or any number of things that, if enough people really stopped to think about it, would change the status quo.

Sure, Saddam was horrible, horrible man and his regime did some super-crappy stuff. Iraq is better off without him. But there are many other horrible dictators in the world who have done equally as bad things. Why don't we have the US go around and "liberate" all of those countries as well? Could it be because they don't have the geographic and economic significance of Iraq? Really, think about it... at the end of the day do you think our government would spend upwards of 200 billion dollars just to "free" a country? No. They're doing it to secure access to some of the largest reserves of oil in the world and to have a large base from which to project American influence across the Middle East. Even if/after Iraq becomes an independent country we're going to do everything we can to make sure that it's one that's friendly to the United States. This was was not about WMD's and it was not about "liberating" Iraq. It was about extending and increasing the power of the United States of America.

Saddam had no real power to screw with the US and his country was a wreck. We still haven't found Osama Bin Laden after almost 3 years! The guy is lugging a friggin' dialysis machine around moutain caves and he can still evade the US military. Ugh.

The War on Terror is a war we cannot win, just like the War on Drugs. We would be better off putting our efforts into combating the real reasons behind why so many people harbor such deep hatred of the United States instead of merely dealing with the symptoms of that hatred. There will never be a day when everyone will love the US and there will be no more terrorists just as there will never be a day when people want to stop doing drugs.

I think we should have a War on Bad Weather because I've been really getting tired of how mother nature has been pushing the US around with all these storms and shit... :) heh.. whatever. I'm just rambling now. If anyone actually reads all this then you rock. :D

Now THIS is a guy who knows what he's talking about.

[JagdStealth]

Some of you guys either didn't pay attention or you're not old enough to have gone to your High school government and economics class :rolleyes:

1. The president doesn't have much control over the economy, nothing you would see immediate results from.
2. There is nothing that says the President can't be religious.
3. We are paying less for gas today than we were in 1950, 1975, 1980, and 1985 (when adjusted for inflation, national average was 1.91 in 1950, it is 1.80 today). This, also, has nothing to do wtih the president.
4. Terrorist attacks home and abroad and threats to the United States have significantly dropped since 2001 vs the previous 8 years.
5. The economy is on a huge upswing, unemployment is at it's lowest point in years (5.6% today)
6. Again, presidents have no control over the economy

Not relating to people who were stoned, absent, or not old enough to pay attention in required high school courses...

1. Go read the CIAs website, plenty of info about WMDs that have been found in Iraq, they just aren't steaming piles of missles that would make a great news story.
2. Anyone who thinks information they get from CNN (or any prime time news station) is the absolute truth needs to reconsider their priorities.

[tsunami0ne]

Just saw the video of the guy getting beheaded :-/ It REALLY pisses me off with how fucked up those people are over there....actually this whole scandal thing is blown out of proportion(sp?)...we look like pansies compared to what horrid things they are doing. DAMN I'M SO UPSET NOW!!!! :madfawk:

I would have linked the vid....but its mos def not work safe and I dunno if I would get banned for posting it. :bite:

getting your head chopped off isn't as bad as getting blown up by a bomb.

[MakotoS13]

getting your head chopped off isn't as bad as getting blown up by a bomb.

okay, well how about "Sawed off with a knife"? cause that's what actually happened.

after watching that i'd like to see iraq become a landscape devoid of anything but rats and cochroaches.

[Modern Angel]

after watching that i'd like to see iraq become a landscape devoid of anything but rats and cochroaches.


Yeah, because the US has never done anything wrong. I'm sure most of the Native Americans were pretty pissed at the United States about a little more than a hundred years ago when we were systematically wiping them all out. Besides the holocaust and the communist purges of Stalin what the United States did to Native Americans was one of the most successful cases of wholesale slaughter/genocide in the history of mankind. Before the first European pioneers settled here the Native American population was estimated to be around 10 million. Today that number is about 2 million. So that's around an 80% effective rate our forefathers had in killing. Woe be to anyone who gets in the way of what the United States wants. :) And there's a laundry list of other pretty nasty things my country, the United States of America, has done as well that I just don't feel like getting into...

Don't get me wrong the beheading of this fellow really blows and the people who did it are despicable human beings but, as the old saying goes, "people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones". Death is Death.

Every country does bad things because they're filled with and run by humans. And humans, quite often, are inclined to do some pretty shitty things. The majority of Iraqis do not hate the US... they just want all this crap to stop so they can get on with their lives in peace, just like you and I do.

[SimpleS14]

getting your head chopped off isn't as bad as getting blown up by a bomb.

it was not chopped off...it was slowly sawed off with a knife...


I still don't think I can post the link

[brandon_sr20det]

I still don't think I can post the link

Thats ok... I will

The FBI can come arrest me or somethin... haha :fawk2:

Well Here it is (http://www.entensity.net/)

Disclaimer :wackit: ... My ass!!!

[SimpleS14]

There is a conspiracy going on about that vid....

http://www.infowars.com/print/iraq/berg.htm

[ryan hagen]

well i didint read the full thing but iraqis are proud people, u take pictures of them doing that stuff, then shoe them to them, even thought they cant see thier face they would be affraid of the uncles and shit getting them picstures and cutting their heads off for honor.

now fot them calling this Atrocities in the prisons, the same stuff probally happened when saddam was there but he jsut killed every one who was interogated and killed every one else who knew. and for the guy who got beheaded on video, it was sooo cruel, they played the audio on the radio esterday and you could hear him gurgle in his own blood as they slowly hacked his head off, his screams got quiter and quiter as they cut deaper and deaper......they complain about Atrocities in the prisons, booo hoo you hurt their feelings, what about our guy missing a head? and all the others who get their bodies dragged through the streets.

my boss had on Rush all day at work yesterday and those other radio shows after it and one things they brought up was how that behaeding is a 2nd or 3rd rate story after the prison scandal, ted kennedy and kerry blame bush for every thing, and the guys parents even blame bush, that he died for bush's sins, but the kid supported bush and he went there on his own and was given a chance to leave but he didint take it, he wandered around iraq.

I dont feel bad for the prisoners, i think it was bad, but remember who we are dealing with, and if you think we were too cruel to them, go find the video of the beheading on the internet and listen to the screams of that man......... its a wake up thats being missed.

[BiluMaster K's]

the pictures??

this gotta stop RIGHT NOW! my good friend just finished his tour in Iraq and he is navy heavy equipment mechanic. First, no matter who you are/what you do, your getting shot at by these crazies. They throw anything and everything at you, even shit, and you must guess if they are gonna blast you after that..uncool. try to place that stress into perpective, its easy to critisize from your home.
Second, those prisoners deserve jack! From what i know, and that is undetailed, these guys are sick(iraqis) They are making complete messes of themselves/ if they are together, they start to fuck around with eachother infront of their captors(us). I wish my friend told me all the details, but in some cases, i dont want to know. Its policy for military men/women to keep a tight lip on certain issues, but any soldier i know says they are begging for it! Bottom line, they ARE dogs, should be on leashes, and should be frikkin smiling they still have a set of balls on them to be exposed.

[adamhu]

thought i would chime in a bit since i am an outside observer..... (i am canadian)

what i am seeing is the slow downhill progress of a nation thats foriegn policy is now catching up to them....guys you can't win...you can't fight the world or terrorists with armies..it just won't work....it will be the same result as the last 20+ years of the so called "drug war" a dismal failure...

what the USA should do.....
1=amend foriegn policy to stay out of other countries business right or wrong what those countries are doing...make a formal statement that they are doing this, and will be pulling out of all those countries...including all military bases
2=stay out of mid east policy altogether...aka isreal

if the USA does not do this....it is only going to get worse...the more you attack and fight ...the more crazy terrorists will pop up....i would just leave them alone and stay the heck out of thier business..

i think its time for the USA to retract and internalise with thier foriegn policy...while expanding and learning about the world around them..and maybe even help out a bit...

when your own allies are giving you the straight facts....you know something is wrong with what you are doing..

IMO



I am getting so tired of this. I hate the media and all the liberals. Bush is on of the best presidents we have ever had. He has the balls to do what he says, unlike our former communist president. The media and all the people protesting the war and what we are doing in Iraq need to to STFU and let Bush and his administration do their job. If we had Gore in office, we would have never went to war and the Iraqi people would still be in slavery and the terrorist groups would probably still be planning on another 9/11.

My barber was telling me the other day that he had a soldier come in his shop that had just got back from Iraq. He said he was part of the force that seized saddam's mansions. He said that one he walked into had a basement downstairs with all kinds of torture devices. One was a bed that had straps that would strap a persons head, arms, and legs down. Then they would turn on a slow Sulfuric Acid drip to drop on the persons forhead, chest and arms. As it ran down their face, chest and arms it would slowly eat away your flesh and be a slow and painful death. That is torture. What we are doing to the prisoners in Iraq is just embarrassment. Until the american soldiers start using methods like that of turture, then I say STFU.

[SimpleS14]

thought i would chime in a bit since i am an outside observer..... (i am canadian)

what i am seeing is the slow downhill progress of a nation thats foriegn policy is now catching up to them....guys you can't win...you can't fight the world or terrorists with armies..it just won't work....it will be the same result as the last 20+ years of the so called "drug war" a dismal failure...

what the USA should do.....
1=amend foriegn policy to stay out of other countries business right or wrong what those countries are doing...make a formal statement that they are doing this, and will be pulling out of all those countries...including all military bases
2=stay out of mid east policy altogether...aka isreal

if the USA does not do this....it is only going to get worse...the more you attack and fight ...the more crazy terrorists will pop up....i would just leave them alone and stay the heck out of thier business..

i think its time for the USA to retract and internalise with thier foriegn policy...while expanding and learning about the world around them..and maybe even help out a bit...

when your own allies are giving you the straight facts....you know something is wrong with what you are doing..

IMO


I agree....America should just stay out of other people's business. That is...until they become a heavy sphere of influence (i.e. Japan, Germany, and Italy back in WWII)....but I highly doubt that would happen. This terrorist shit is happening because America is into way more than they should be...and the mentally this country precieves of itself to other countries is rather annoying. Bleh....I just think he should pull out ASAP....see what happens...then see if we can regain the trust of allies and other nations.


BTW....I think that video is a fake....never been tricked so badly. :bash:

[MakotoS13]

Yeah, because the US has never done anything wrong.

who the hell said that? i'd just appreciate the world a little more without those ungrateful camel jockies growing up to be murderers. before ya say that i shouldn't generalize i think you should know that i don't care about the welfare of those people... at all.

make a parking lot, that's my vote :)

[adamhu]

how do you think the USA would react...if lets say an invading force was in the USA with tanks and crap and planes ect.....to oust GWB?

all of the gun toting USA citizens would be no better than what we are seeing in iraq...probably worse IMO

its all perception.....what right do any of us have going across the planet to oust or fix another countries issues..... to find WMD...christ the USA has more WMD than anyone..and has used them....

no one is going to attack the USA..... if you stay out of other peoples business..simple as that...

if you want a big army...fine..thats great...just keep it within your own borders..and stop projecting that power across the planet...

people are more than content when left alone...un harrassed....but when you start poking and proding into peoples affairs..thats when they get nasty..and when you go into these 3rd world places..these people have nothing to lose..so you see them do all kinds of crazy things..

you may be unaware of how america is percieved in the world, but you have a very bad image...when i travel (i could easily be american..white...no accent ect..) the treatment i get when they think i am american is one thing...then i tell them i am canadian..and well to be quite frank....they totally change the way they treat me.... i travel alot ..about 12wks out of the year..all over the place...and its the same every where

[oojpeeoo]

the so called "MEDIA" is playing out all americans to be the badguy...so 1 footatage leaked and an american got beheaded...wut u think goes on in iraq?!?... americans do that exact same shit but cover it up better cuz of the fukn media.... look wat happened in viet nam.... there was this village full of kids and the american soldiers gave them all grenades to play with and sat back while they killed themselves... shit like this and all the bs thats goin on in iraq would want them to retaliate with a video of the beheading of a civilian... im not sayin were all in the wrong... i mean wut they did was fukn WRONG and GROSS too but we cant just sit back and be ignorant as to wut is goin on in the world.

[tsunami0ne]

you may be unaware of how america is percieved in the world, but you have a very bad image...when i travel (i could easily be american..white...no accent ect..) the treatment i get when they think i am american is one thing...then i tell them i am canadian..and well to be quite frank....they totally change the way they treat me.... i travel alot ..about 12wks out of the year..all over the place...and its the same every where

Yeah, there are people out there that think Americans are 'cool', and there are some that think quite the opposite:

"I travel out of The United States on a pretty regular basis and I've gotten used to people from other countries hinting that most Americans form a unique brand of moron and I've gotten pretty used to accepting that prejudice as a basic part of traveling. There is some truth to this. I've seen first-hand how Americans in poorer countries will brag about how they talked some underfed child down from 3 dollars to fifty cents for a handmade shirt or blanket. I've suffered in airport lounges with their fat, stupid white asses and overheard them complain that there's not enough mayonnaise on their sandwiches and that they can't believe the bar doesn't have any frozen drinks or Heineken! I try to keep quiet and not let anyone know I'm forced to share a country with those dull ignorant and sometimes dangerous beasts."

[adamhu]

the problem is...
what was the USA doing in vietnam?
what are they doing in iraq?
what are they doing to cuba...
what are they doing in isreal?
what are they doing in taiwan?

what are they doing in....."add name here"

is it going to take you guys being drafted into a war to shake the USA up? is that what you want to "protect" yourselfs? i know if i was 18-30 i sure as heck would be looking out to be drafted.....can't you see whats happening?

you guys have a trillion dollar military budget...but can't even stop a few terrorists? can't you see thats its a war you can't win with the current tactics?

how bout.....taking that trillion dollars..and help out those countries...with HELP...not bombs..or b17 bombers..or m1a abrams...


a trillion dollars can go a LOOOONG way to help the world....and instead of building more enemies....heck....you may gain a few friends in the world...

this is coming from a canadian..who are your closest friends....sometimes you should listen to your friends....cause they usually have your best interest in mind...

[Modern Angel]

who the hell said that? i'd just appreciate the world a little more without those ungrateful camel jockies growing up to be murderers. before ya say that i shouldn't generalize i think you should know that i don't care about the welfare of those people... at all.

make a parking lot, that's my vote :)

It's statements like that that make me ashamed to call myself an American sometimes.... :-/

Anyway, if you have such strong convictions that we should just wipe out Iraq then why don't you hurry up and join the armed forces so you can put your money where your mouth is.

[Dream240]

this is coming from a canadian..who are your closest friends....sometimes you should listen to your friends....cause they usually have your best interest in mind...

Heh, do you mean closest friend geographically or politically? I can think of quite a few countries that would argue the latter. Escpecially one's that actually SENT TROOPS TO BACK US UP!! What has Canada done? Accept harbor a couple of our cowards that TOOK AN OATH TO SERVE THIS COUNTRY FOR A GIVEN AMOUNT OF TIME. just because they don't agree with Bush they won't stay and fight along wioth their fellow soldiers? Give me break. Grow some balls and live up to your commitments. I think this is one of the biggest problems with most Americans today. We only want to go along with something as long as it's convenient. Once something becomes too complicated or a little rough we want to bail. I give Bush credit for sitcking this thing out. Amidst ALL the criticism and speculation.
But on the other hand my personal standpoint is that we SHOULDN'T have gone in there in the first place. We have soooooo many other problems in this country rather than take on something like rebuilding a country!! I mean come on!! THIS country needs some rebuilding!! Have you seen the state of the roads in California? :)
But seriously, I think that since this can of worms is open, we need to finish this or we'll look even worse to the rest of the world.
And as far as the treatment of Iraqi prisoners, it's a double edged sword IMO.
Either you interrogate them the way they've been doing it (humiliation) and the U.S. is suffering global political suicide because we live in the electronic age and NOTHING is private anymore. OR we treat them alot better than they deserve and we continue to get laughed at by these guys like Al-Sadr and his militia and bombed, and shot, and killed, and pushed around; all just to keep our image intact (heh little too late for that).
I mean look at the way our Marines (hoo-rah) went into Fallujah and now Najaf and basically fucked these guys up! We had to, or that country would be lost. And just today I read that they agreed to pull our troops out if asked after June 30. Oh boy I can't for that day, just to see what happens to Iraq. Who thinks ALL the tyrant wannabes are going to come out of the woodwork? :bash:

So rethink that little statement, Canada is one of the biggest dissappointments to our so called Allies.

And that's all I have to say bout that.....

[ryan hagen]

if we jsut gave them money, and food, and anything else, u see the movie black hawk down? watch the bgining. what ever war lord has the most shit just goes and take all the aid supplies, right now we are fighting a shiek, clerik or war lord in some town in iraq, if we kept our noses out of every ones business most of europe would be speaking german, just lately we are fighting a moving fight that we cant tell who the bad guy is.........it ll take time but will it be worth it? i doubr any one will ever know for sure

[Dream240]

if we jsut gave them money, and food, and anything else, u see the movie black hawk down? watch the bgining. what ever war lord has the most shit just goes and take all the aid supplies, right now we are fighting a shiek, clerik or war lord in some town in iraq, if we kept our noses out of every ones business most of europe would be speaking german, just lately we are fighting a moving fight that we cant tell who the bad guy is.........it ll take time but will it be worth it? i doubr any one will ever know for sure

Dude....just shut up. I love all your generalizations. Honestly you sound like the poster boy for the average ignorant American.

Now go :cry:

I don't care if this is harsh. We're talking seriously on this thread. So just read if you don't know WTF you're talking about.

[ryan hagen]

i just saw that video, watch the floor, ther eis plenty of blood............and the screams werent his, u can hear them before they start cutting, its one of them yelling shit.....................

[ryan hagen]

Dude....just shut up. I love all your generalizations. Honestly you sound like the poster boy for the average ignorant American.

Now go :cry:

I don't care if this is harsh. We're talking seriously on this thread. So just read if you don't know WTF you're talking about.


lol go cry, in afganistan it already happened, where htey hoard the stuff up, it d happen there too.

well im just glad im in america

[ICKY]

I agree with some of you people to pull out in Iraq. I say the U.S. should pull out of every single country and just stick with Japan, Taiwan, Singapore, and MAYBE the UK, and leave the rest of the world to fend for themselves. I say screw all those other countries and lets see if they can handle themselves. I also think the U.S. should get out of the UN and kick the UN headquarters out of america and into Europe. This country spends so much money on this and that. The UN is something we dont need. Hell, WE (The U.S.) pretty much PAY for the damn thing to run. And we dont need OPEC. I say screw the environmentalists and start drilling in Alaska. Then gas would be much MUCH cheaper. And we would be less dependant on OPEC for oil.

As for the Military budget goes... whoever said we spend a trillion dollars on it, your a MORON! The defence budget for the US Millitary is somewhere around 350 Billion. I say spend MORE and completely eliminate the Wel-fare aid to other countries. The US spends billions of dollars on wel-fare annualy if im not mistaken. I think Wel-fare is a buncha BS. We could use that money to drill in Alaska? Or even open something up to create jobs. During President Clintons administation, he reduced the military fighting force what? 40% down since the gulf war. Almost HALF of the military was eliminated, naval ships, airplanes, ect. ect. I would have to say Clinton was one of, if not THE WORST president EVER. The american public now-a-days are too quick to choose who's in power. The Democrats complain about Bush being a "Warmonger" or some crap like that. What about FDR? HE was a democrat. He declared war on italy, japan, and germany in WWII. Remember Pearl Harbor? I've been to the arizona memorial and seen the movies and bios and what not. FDR went to war and the american public supported him through the whole war! Unlike now, the WTC gets taken down, thousands of people die, and we should all "love and forgive". BS. I could really care less what happens to the USA now. The american public cannot agree with eachother, and they cant stand under ONE leader. This country is slowly but surely destroying itself. And thats all i have to say about that. :squintd:

[G_Fish240]

the us pays about 1 percent of the Cost of the UN... its based on the GDP if a country, so its pretty relative. You can't just pull out of countries. The WORLD is interconnected, politcally and economically. Democrats complain about Bush because they are Democrats and Bush a republican........
The United States is the best country in the world, but we need ties to other countries as much as they need us. The US is strong, but they cant take on the whole world, politcally or ecomonically.

[Modern Angel]

The Democrats complain about Bush being a "Warmonger" or some crap like that. What about FDR? HE was a democrat. He declared war on italy, japan, and germany in WWII. Remember Pearl Harbor? I've been to the arizona memorial and seen the movies and bios and what not. FDR went to war and the american public supported him through the whole war! Unlike now, the WTC gets taken down, thousands of people die, and we should all "love and forgive". BS. I could really care less what happens to the USA now. The american public cannot agree with eachother, and they cant stand under ONE leader.:squintd:

First of all folks shouldn't vote for a party they should vote for a person ... IMO people who choose to be exclusively democratic or republican or whatever are just too lazy to think for themselves.

Secondly, even trying to compare WWII to our current "War on Terror" is asinine. They are so completely different it's not even funny. You're talking about major nations (German, Italy and Japan) conquering, invading and subjugating practically all of Europe, most of the USSR and much of Asia versus a group of evil terrorists setting off bombs here and there. The difference is staggering. The reasons to go to war in WWII were much greater and much "better" than they are now. Also, it's much easier to fight a modern, organized western military that has the same values as you do than it is to try and fight small bands of guerrillas and terrorists using whatever tactics necessary to win (kind of like how we fought the British during the revolutionary war...)

And finally, the reason our country is so divided right now is because our President is doing a lot of things that are pissing off a lot of people. People that have a say in how they want our country to be led just like everyone else. The last time I checked this wasn't a dictatorship. Just because you stand under ONE leader doesn't mean you should. The people of Nazi Germany stood under ONE leader and look how that turned out. Solidarity can be great but only when a cause is truly just and, frankly, the war in Iraq is far from just.

[blackconvertible]

i think that most people forget what was really going on in iraq before we got there. kidnappings, tortue, rape, and execution were daily duties of the iraqi government. swap the roles and put yourself in the shoes of the iraqi civilian. i know that i would be hoping that some badass country would come save me from all the crap they were dealing with on a daily basis. their constitution has been re-written now and one of the things in it is, they have the right to not be tortured. imagine if that was just now getting added to our own constitution. these things are gonna take time and everyone should support our troops and be patient. i do not know the exact time and i hope someone helps me out on this, how long did it take the US to be independent from europe? gimme a time line guys. i know there are some smart history buffs out there.

[SimpleS14]

blackconvertible - I would not compare the US independence to that of Iraqi.

Modern Angel - Please inform us when you first novel is published. ;)

[ICKY]

Modern Angel - I was NOT comparing WWII to "The War On Terror" but about how the AMERICAN PUBLIC back then, SUPPORTED the president. And i do agree with you that we shouldn't have to vote on a Political Party, but rather the person's views, goals, and priorities.

Alot of people vote for those who "sound" good. Not by their views and goals. I bet if a person ran for president and said he would make make-up completely FREE, he would get about 80% of the womens vote. I $h!t you not. Many people in this country are retarded. I was watching T.V. the other day, and they were asking people who was the Secretary Of Defence. Many of them answered wrong. Some even said George Washington... :rl: "George Bush" and other retarded answers... :confused: And THIS is suppose to be the "Modern Age" yet people dont even know whos in power. Its a shame...

[Dream240]

The last time I checked this wasn't a dictatorship. Just because you stand under ONE leader doesn't mean you should. The people of Nazi Germany stood under ONE leader and look how that turned out. Solidarity can be great but only when a cause is truly just and, frankly, the war in Iraq is far from just.

Whoa whoa!! Who ever said the U.S. was a dictatorship? Just because our COMMANDER IN CHIEF OF THE ARMED FORCES makes a military decision he's become a dictator? You are blowing this waaay out of proportion. Saddam, now he was a dictator. Do you see Bush going out and taking women off the streets because he wants them for the night and then afterwards dumping them off in a slum half dead? Or maybe you see Bush firing chemical weapons into the Kurds killing 400,000 innocent lives because he didn't like them and felt the world would be better off? I don't think so. And second, Don't even start to compare Bush to Hitler. I mean come on man, Hitler was a ruthless, heartless, evil tyrant that saw the world with only one future, his. How can you even put them in the same sentence?
Hell, Roosevelt himself would turn over in his grave if he read that little statement you made.

Sure Bush has made some questionable decisions, but the last time I checked he WAS voted to be our president for 4 years (sorry Florida) so I'd say the majority of Amercians (democratic govt. right?) made the best choice they could have. And any of us who don't like it well, there's always the next election.

So while your opinions are okay, because we live in this Democratic country, those same freedoms give me the right to retort. Something the Iraqis never had until our President, Mr. Bush, took action. 'nuff said.

[adamhu]

ok sorry 350 billion dollars :) i knew it was very high....



I agree with some of you people to pull out in Iraq. I say the U.S. should pull out of every single country and just stick with Japan, Taiwan, Singapore, and MAYBE the UK, and leave the rest of the world to fend for themselves. I say screw all those other countries and lets see if they can handle themselves. I also think the U.S. should get out of the UN and kick the UN headquarters out of america and into Europe. This country spends so much money on this and that. The UN is something we dont need. Hell, WE (The U.S.) pretty much PAY for the damn thing to run. And we dont need OPEC. I say screw the environmentalists and start drilling in Alaska. Then gas would be much MUCH cheaper. And we would be less dependant on OPEC for oil.

As for the Military budget goes... whoever said we spend a trillion dollars on it, your a MORON! The defence budget for the US Millitary is somewhere around 350 Billion. I say spend MORE and completely eliminate the Wel-fare aid to other countries. The US spends billions of dollars on wel-fare annualy if im not mistaken. I think Wel-fare is a buncha BS. We could use that money to drill in Alaska? Or even open something up to create jobs. During President Clintons administation, he reduced the military fighting force what? 40% down since the gulf war. Almost HALF of the military was eliminated, naval ships, airplanes, ect. ect. I would have to say Clinton was one of, if not THE WORST president EVER. The american public now-a-days are too quick to choose who's in power. The Democrats complain about Bush being a "Warmonger" or some crap like that. What about FDR? HE was a democrat. He declared war on italy, japan, and germany in WWII. Remember Pearl Harbor? I've been to the arizona memorial and seen the movies and bios and what not. FDR went to war and the american public supported him through the whole war! Unlike now, the WTC gets taken down, thousands of people die, and we should all "love and forgive". BS. I could really care less what happens to the USA now. The american public cannot agree with eachother, and they cant stand under ONE leader. This country is slowly but surely destroying itself. And thats all i have to say about that. :squintd:

[nokeone]

i just saw that video, watch the floor, ther eis plenty of blood............and the screams werent his, u can hear them before they start cutting, its one of them yelling shit.....................

no, they are his screams...the sound is off from the video a bit...if you notice the sound ends a couple of seconds before the video does...so just adjust it accordingly in your head...

[intrexin]

It DID put a spark in the economy, didn't you hear? The price of gas spiked to over 2.00 a gallon in GEORGIA... I have an uncle down in decatur telling me that 93 octane was 2.07/gallon at the mobil station down the street from his house... Someone is benefitting from this shit, while it damn sure is not any of us

There in ny it is $2.05 for the cheap shit

[Modern Angel]

Whoa whoa!! Who ever said the U.S. was a dictatorship? Just because our COMMANDER IN CHIEF OF THE ARMED FORCES makes a military decision he's become a dictator?

Go back and read what I said. I never said Bush was a dictator... in fact I said that the last time I checked this wasn't a dictatorship. Also, I wasn't comparing Bush to Hitler at all. I was using the extreme example of Nazi Germany to show how simply standing behind a leader just because he's your leader isn't always the best idea.

Now, if you fully agree with how our current administration is conducting business then that's great, go right ahead and support Bush and his gang. However, my point is that since this isn't a dictatorship - and we have freedom of speech - we all have every right to not stand behind or support our president if we don't agree with his actions and/or the actions of his cabinet.

People supported Roosevelt and Truman during WWII because you'd be hard-pressed to find some good reasons why we shouldn't be fighting. Iraq, on the other hand, is the opposite. Of course Saddam was bad, I agree and I've said that before. Certainly many Iraqis are better off without him around. But, again, like I've said before there are very evil people running countries across the globe. Why aren't we running around helping "liberate" all of the oppressed peoples of the world if we're such an altruistic nation? The US was indirectly responsible for the deaths of an estimated 2 million Iraqi children as a result of the food and medical supply embargoes we had in effect against Iraq since the end of the first Gulf War. Would you call that "just"?

At any rate now that we're running Iraq I do believe that we need to try to stabilize the country as best we can and should stay there until Iraqis can safely administer their own country. But that doesn't mean that I agree that we should have gone there in the first place. :)

[sykikchimp]

No one says anything about North Korea.. They are in at least as bad shape as Iraq was but do we go in there? And they claim to have WDM. Are we worried? no.. b/c we know they aren't stupid enough to use them. Do they have ties to Al Queda? Last I read they do.

So why are we going there? hmm.. maybe it just isn't an important enough country to us. go figure.

[CoasTek240]

Ok, I Didnt Read All Of This Thread, Nor Do I Care Too, Being As There Are Way Too Many Opinionated Views Based On Bullshit And Heresay.

Let Me First State That I Work For The Company Who's Employs The Civillian/gov't Contractors Over There. I My Self An A Gov't Contractor Working With The Navy. I Can Not Name My Company, But If You've Been Following Closely You Would've Seen It.(many Of Our Contractors Were Prison Guards, Majority Of Them Supervisors)
Let Me Say What They Did Was Wrong, However, Look How We Deal With It, All Those Men And Women Involved Are Being Tried And Will Have Their Consequences To Deal With. Where As When We Have One Of Our Contractors Abducted And Video Taped Being Decapitated, The Rest Of The World Doesnt Make Nearly As Big A Stink About That. And So Far There Is No Retalliation To That From The Iraqi Public Nor The Rest Of The World. Instead, That Is What We Deserve B/c Of Our Actions. I Must Say Thats Bullshit!
I'm Not One To Very Pc When It Comes To The War, So If What I Say Offends You, Deal With It. But Something Needs To Be Done About This.
Broad Generalization: Everything We Have Done, We Have Done B/c No One Else Would. And If Its Not To The Un's Likeing Then Step In And Activly Participate.

[Dream240]

. Now, if you fully agree with how our current administration is conducting business then that's great, go right ahead and support Bush and his gang. However, my point is that since this isn't a dictatorship - and we have freedom of speech - we all have every right to not stand behind or support our president if we don't agree with his actions and/or the actions of his cabinet.

Okay, now you're just trying to change the way your posts sounds. I'm betting that almost everyone that read it through and reacted the same way I did. It SOUNDS like you're comparing Bush(and his admin) to past dictators. Namely Hitler. I whole heartedly agree with your point that this is a free country, as I stated. And in reality there's no crime in mentioning people like Hitler. But to me it sounds like your playing the political point of view game with words. This quote you made simply states your point, whereas the previous one I was talking about doesn't make the point directly and sounds a little misleading. Hence my response. I understand what you're saying now and again I agree with your point of whether or not to stand behind our president, which is expected since obviously not everyone voted for him. I'm just making sure you're not trying to draw similarities between the America of today and Nazi Germany of the 1940s.

Man I love threads like this!!!

[nokeone]

isn't it a lot of effort to capitalize every first letter?...

makes it weird to read..

[heated heavy]

not that it makes a huge difference but the american contractor was decapitated after the iraqi prisoner abuse went public in retaliation.

obviously his comp. automatically capitalizes the first letter of the word. who would go out of their way to do that?

"Broad Generalization: Everything We Have Done, We Have Done B/c No One Else Would. And If Its Not To The Un's Likeing Then Step In And Activly Participate."

ohhhh...so that's why we're in iraq.

[Dream240]

Yeah really, that whole statement sounds like a direct quote from the White House's P.R. dept. :jerkit:

Yeah like the real reason we're over there doesn't include the fact that the combination of Iraqi oil and Kuwaiti oil totals about 75% of the world oil supply. Yeah that wouldn't have anything to do with us going over there.....yep that's it....

[ICKY]

Nobody ever said anything about oil NOT being a reason. They just "forget" to tell us. Besides, that would make oil cheaper ;) The fact still remains, thousands of people have died because of terrorists. And the american public fails to realize this. If you think we should just stand by and not do a damn thing about it, we are gonna look like Isreal. Being suicide bombed every day because we are to soft to deal with a problem. Remember, its either them or us. Who's side are you on?

BTW, anyone got anymore info on the chemical weapons they found in iraq? I just caught a glimpse of it on the news yesterday. I heard it was Mustard Gas. That is one NASTY chemical... wouldnt want one to go off in my front yard.

[Dream240]

[QUOTE=ICKY]Who's side are you on?[QUOTE]

Who's side do you think I'm on? I'm an American, through and through. I'm simply stating that I don't like the way our govt keeps us in the dark. There's alot of things that happen that we don't hear about until months later, or motives behind the actions taken by the admin. that we don't ever get explained. And to be honest, the whole invasion of Iraq WAS very sudden. Remember? It was like one day everyone's talking about the Enron scandal and the ties to the White House, then all of a sudden, Bush goes on TV and starts making claims that Iraq is making WMD and harboring terrorists. Then before the American public even realizes it, we were invading from Kuwait.
I remember thinking, "What the hell happened while I was asleep?" Literally.

It's just that I'm dissatisfied with the way the govt thinks we can't handle the truth or that we're (American Public) not ready for the truth. Whether it be brutal or embarrassing. I would like to see the govt. telling us ALL the details, instead of us finding out through a leak from the jails and photos showing up on CNN or the internet. Like the way they didn't want pictures taken of the Americans coming home in coffins with flags draped over them. That's something we NEED to see on the news. At least I think so.

[CoasTek240]

Yeah really, that whole statement sounds like a direct quote from the White House's P.R. dept. :jerkit:

Yeah like the real reason we're over there doesn't include the fact that the combination of Iraqi oil and Kuwaiti oil totals about 75% of the world oil supply. Yeah that wouldn't have anything to do with us going over there.....yep that's it....

ok, yes im sure that is a huge part of the agenda, we America as a whole woudl be lying if we said its not, but problem is many of the political world is soo PC and does have alterior motives.

this whole thread is too un-patriotic for me.
i wish more people would respect the great country they live in.

btw the reason all the first letters are CAPS is b/c i do a lot of logistics work on my comp, and when im using certain programs i have to be in all caps, sometime i forget and leave it on. luckily Zilvia or a mod converts them for me. i dunno.

***i'm not going to check this thread any more so dont bother addressing any posts to me.

[1993240]

It is not so much that they hide so much stuff IMO, its that nobody pays attention. Here, i will spell some shit out for you guys.

Go to http://www.newamericancentury.org and look at the statements and principles. Read it and and then when you get to the bottom see who is in this organization. Read the articles about the middle east in particular the older ones from 1998. By now with titles like "how to attack iraq" and "a way to oust saddam" printed in 1998, it should be clear who wanted what done and how long they wanted it done for.

Dream240, you point makes it clear that the TV is just a tool to manipulate the public. See my above statement for more clarification.

[adamhu]

if the usa and others did not plop down isreal in a muslem area they would not be suicide bombed...you can't be bombed if your not there...

again...the usa sticking its nose into affairs....

its not about being SOFT.....being hard is not going to solve your problems....can't you see that?


Nobody ever said anything about oil NOT being a reason. They just "forget" to tell us. Besides, that would make oil cheaper ;) The fact still remains, thousands of people have died because of terrorists. And the american public fails to realize this. If you think we should just stand by and not do a damn thing about it, we are gonna look like Isreal. Being suicide bombed every day because we are to soft to deal with a problem. Remember, its either them or us. Who's side are you on?

BTW, anyone got anymore info on the chemical weapons they found in iraq? I just caught a glimpse of it on the news yesterday. I heard it was Mustard Gas. That is one NASTY chemical... wouldnt want one to go off in my front yard.

[ICKY]

adamhu - Lets break it down to just one person. If that person is "soft" he would be walked all over, taken advantage of, made fun of and what not. If he was "hard", he would trip everyone who tried to walk on him, he would slap someone if they tried to take advantage, and he would knock someone up-side their head if they made fun of him. The point is, there is a way to act. You cant be too "soft" and you cant be too "hard". And if you think we are being to hard, your insane.

Dream240 - The government holds out on information because some of it doesnt need to be told, or they dont have all the facts. You cant go half-cocked and say something, when it turns out in the end that its completely different. And you cant tell EVERYTHING to the american public because some/most people will have something to say about it and use it to their advantage. EX: The soldiers being brought back in coffins. That right there is NOT something we need to see. Then you get people saying "Look at them, they are being killed for nothing!". Well, those men and women died because they belived in something. Watching that movie Black Hawk Down pissed my father off so much he couldnt watch it. I didnt understand why at first. But after i thought about it alittle bit, I understood why. Those men died because those people are animals, and the Clinton Administation did NOT let them use the proper weapons (i.e. Tanks, C-130 Gunships) to get the job done. Being that my father has been in the Navy all his life, he felt something no non-military person could feel, let alone understand. Lets say your mother or father died. You would feel so miserable, and if the whole nation knew about it, they would think "Oh thats so sad" and its not the same feeling. These men and women in the military form a bond, almost like a big huge family.

[Dream240]

Dream240 - The government holds out on information because some of it doesnt need to be told, or they dont have all the facts. You cant go half-cocked and say something, when it turns out in the end that its completely different. And you cant tell EVERYTHING to the american public because some/most people will have something to say about it and use it to their advantage. EX: The soldiers being brought back in coffins. That right there is NOT something we need to see. Then you get people saying "Look at them, they are being killed for nothing!". Well, those men and women died because they belived in something. Watching that movie Black Hawk Down pissed my father off so much he couldnt watch it. I didnt understand why at first. But after i thought about it alittle bit, I understood why. Those men died because those people are animals, and the Clinton Administation did NOT let them use the proper weapons (i.e. Tanks, C-130 Gunships) to get the job done. Being that my father has been in the Navy all his life, he felt something no non-military person could feel, let alone understand. Lets say your mother or father died. You would feel so miserable, and if the whole nation knew about it, they would think "Oh thats so sad" and its not the same feeling. These men and women in the military form a bond, almost like a big huge family.

Okay, Icky, I should just tell you. I WAS in the Marines. And my wife is currently in the Air Force. So what you say about your father, I totally understand. You really want to know something? I HATE every image I see and every article I read about the Iraq war, and EVERY news broadcast that I see. BUT I still read them, watch them, listen to them, because I CHOOSE not to ignore my countries affairs. I feel that all these things that happen to us as a country are both brutal and righteous at the same time. You see Americans dying for the founding principals of this country. "Freedom and Justice FOR ALL." That's what I have to keep telling myself when I hear or read about another American death. Those soldiers took an oath in front of God and country, like I did, to defend this country and serve it to the best of my ability. And I respect and honor that they carry out that oath. I also had trouble watching Black Hawk Down along with any other military film. They all appeal to my patriotism. And while I may make some comments about our current White House admin. and my dissatisfaction with them, I know they are doing a tough job. But I also remember that ALL the admin and ALL of their actions DIRECTLY reflect me and my country. And that's what makes me so involved in these events. And hell, I think every American should feel that way and actually want to be more informed, go out of their way to get the facts. Unfortunately most Americans are content with only partial information and the 5 minute clips on the 10 o'clock news. I for one am not. Honestly I refused to watch the beheading video, I heard a small part of where they chant "ALA ACKBA" (God is great) and that's it. I just couldn't stomach anymore of that story. It was kinda the breaking point for me as far as seeing images of dead Americans. The hanging bodies from the bridge was really bad too... And there's some pictures from Vietnam and WWII that are very hard to look at, because you see them and you have to tell yourself that these were brave Americans that fought for what I have today, FREEDOM.
But I'll tell you this, I will never turn a blind eye & deaf ear toward events like those because I feel they remind me that there's things in this world that needs attention, and it just so happens that Iraq became our responsibility. So be it.

[ICKY]

Okay, Icky, I should just tell you. I WAS in the Marines. And my wife is currently in the Air Force. So what you say about your father, I totally understand. You really want to know something? I HATE every image I see and every article I read about the Iraq war, and EVERY news broadcast that I see. BUT I still read them, watch them, listen to them, because I CHOOSE not to ignore my countries affairs. I feel that all these things that happen to us as a country are both brutal and righteous at the same time. You see Americans dying for the founding principals of this country. "Freedom and Justice FOR ALL." That's what I have to keep telling myself when I hear or read about another American death. Those soldiers took an oath in front of God and country, like I did, to defend this country and serve it to the best of my ability. And I respect and honor that they carry out that oath. I also had trouble watching Black Hawk Down along with any other military film. They all appeal to my patriotism. And while I may make some comments about our current White House admin. and my dissatisfaction with them, I know they are doing a tough job. But I also remember that ALL the admin and ALL of their actions DIRECTLY reflect me and my country. And that's what makes me so involved in these events. And hell, I think every American should feel that way and actually want to be more informed, go out of their way to get the facts. Unfortunately most Americans are content with only partial information and the 5 minute clips on the 10 o'clock news. I for one am not. Honestly I refused to watch the beheading video, I heard a small part of where they chant "ALA ACKBA" (God is great) and that's it. I just couldn't stomach anymore of that story. It was kinda the breaking point for me as far as seeing images of dead Americans. The hanging bodies from the bridge was really bad too... And there's some pictures from Vietnam and WWII that are very hard to look at, because you see them and you have to tell yourself that these were brave Americans that fought for what I have today, FREEDOM.
But I'll tell you this, I will never turn a blind eye & deaf ear toward events like those because I feel they remind me that there's things in this world that needs attention, and it just so happens that Iraq became our responsibility. So be it.

:werd: Very nicely put. You have made me speechless. :bigok:

[Modern Angel]

The fact still remains, thousands of people have died because of terrorists. And the american public fails to realize this. If you think we should just stand by and not do a damn thing about it, we are gonna look like Isreal. Being suicide bombed every day because we are to soft to deal with a problem.

Yes, thousands of people did die in the terrorists attacks up to and including 9/11. I think you're living in a different country than I am if you believe that the American public doesn't realize this. Everyone and their mother still knows and remembers the tragedy of 9/11. The Bush administration has propagandized the war in Iraq as part of the "War on Terror" when it's really not. I've said this before and I'll say it again - Saddam's Iraq was not responsible for attacking the US. So, with that being the case, how does invading Iraq help to protect us from terrorism? I fail to see the connection. Oh, wait, I know, it's because Iraq harbored terrorists and could help give them weapons for attacks right? Well, even though that might have ended up happening now that we've invaded Iraq it has happened. There are far, far more terrorist groups operating in Iraq now than there were (or allegedly were) before we invaded. The invasion of Iraq was a giant recruitment poster for the terrorists. Our victory over Saddam's Iraq was akin to killing one giant monster only to have thousands of tiny but just as deadly snakes come pouring out.

And whoever said Israel is soft on terror? For years they've been using very heavy-handed tactics to try to protect themselves and none of it's worked. Hell, they invaded and colonized large parts of Palestine, they defeated Egypt and Syria and Lebanon in wars, they have heavily armed soldiers and tanks patrolling the streets every day. Every Israeli citizen must be an active member of the military for a time and can be called to action in a time of crisis. They routinely use bombing, helicopter and tank attacks to assault Palestinian positions and suspected terrorists hideouts. They go in and raze entire sections of Palestinian villages to prevent them from being used by terrorists... and the list goes on and on. How you see that as being "soft" is baffling to me but perhaps we have different definitions of the word. :)

[ICKY]

Who said anything about Israel being soft? Besides, the Palestinians, they are rejects, nobody wants them in their country, because they are agressive and violent people. Why hasnt Iran, or Egypt, or Jordan say "Common, stop fighting, you can live over here." Its because NOBODY wants them. I think the USA should support Israel with military weapons, and stuff. They are our ONLY allies that can be trusted in the middle east. Id say to Israel, keep fighting.

Everybody remembers 9/11. Not everybody knows that Israel is being suicide bombed daily. Thats because its OLD news to the media. If 50+ people dont die in a suicide attack, it gets little-to-none air time. I belive the Israelies are doing the right thing, They've been picked on long enough, and their going to kick someones muslim ass.

[Phlip]

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