sr20 ignition timing need help

[Wizard]

so i searched a good amount all of the internet and couldnt really find anything specific enough. ive been tracking down an issue with my car bogging and running rich. today i checked my ignition timing and it was reading at about 5* or a few tick marks to the left. the cas is set in the middle like its suppose to be but if i turn it all the way i can get 15*. can i run it like this? from what i know i shouldnt but how else can i get to 15*? when i got the car it didnt have a knock sensor so i put one in and it didnt really make a difference. ive also had the code come up a few times but its really random could that have something to do with it? im thinking about rewiring the knock sensor to my ecu but id rather not if i dont have to.

[Wizard]

ok so ive done everything i could think of with the knock sensor and it doesnt seem to make any difference ive also replaced the cas and made sure it was installed correctly. ive read that its possible the timing chain might have skipped a tooth on one of the cams. i took the valve cover off and the dowel pins look to be a little bit off from 10 and 12 o clock ill post pics just need a second opinion.

http://i39.tinypic.com/dwyiyb.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/24n43zq.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/15odw7c.jpg

[cotbu]

The mechanical timing is correct, and it is damn near impossible for the chain to jump a link. The marks on the crank needs to be at zero, TDC and the #1 cam lobes should be pointing out, < > Number 1 piston should be at the top. CAS install is documented in the FSM. But placing it centered is for manual adjustment, the ecu will still be able to adjust the timing even if it is all the way to one side. The folklore about 15deg being in the center is false!
15deg is read by a timing light. But.....if installed correctly, you should have full range of adjustment so 15deg would not be at the end of that range. So watch what happens to the CAS gear, as it's installed. Put the car into timing mode adjust base idle and timing!

PS your picture only show half the equation.

[Croustibat]

As cotbu stated, 15° is with the CAS "around" the middle position, when everything is ok. The CA18DET has the exact same setup, and when we get 15° with a CAS all the way to a side, it usually means the AAC is out 1 tooth. I cant say for sure it is the same with the SR20, but i really think it is.

Also, you cant read your timing without a timing light, and you need the engine to be warm, without load (dont hesitate to use a 1500rpm idle to prevent the car from stalling, it will still do 15° timing ). If it is not >80°, the timing is not 15° so you cant check.

If the timing jumps around, you may need a new CAS (worn splines)

[Wizard]

ok so its alright for it to be clocked all the way advanced? it was running like that when i picked it up and it seemed to be running good but i thought there was something else causing it to be off like that. ive installed the CAS correctly to my knowledge ill take a pic of me restabbing it to double check. cam lobes are out the crank is at zero all of thats right. the reason i mentioned the chain jumping a link is because of this thread My timing issues... (http://www.sr20-forum.com/general-sr20/34843-my-timing-issues.html) it just got me thinking of other possibilites. and i checked the timing with the engine warm with the tps unplugged in timing mode and got around 5* as i said. whats the AAC?

[Wizard]

heres a pic of my cas i tried for 10min this is the best i could get it sorry for the awful pics lol my camera wouldnt focus correctly but its slightly to the right not as centered as some of the other pictures ive seen.

http://i43.tinypic.com/1zd90dz.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/110wqc8.jpg

[cotbu]

Question for you. Are you using the loop in the back of the coil packs? Try a high tension spark plug wire. Or flip the timing pickup around.

Take a picture of the cas out with it set to go in, so we can see the orientation of the mating marks.
But it looks correct!!!?

[Wizard]

i didnt use the loop i used the spark plug wire method ive heard the loops not so reliable and before i put the cas in i line up the second dot not the orange one with the slot on the silverish part then i push it in and thats the best i could line it up but yeh im pretty sure its right

http://i42.tinypic.com/96aus3.jpg

[cotbu]

Yes that would be correct. The exhaust cam looks slightly off, rotate it clockwise to take out the slack and make the dowel pin 12'oclock. The only other thing I can think of that might be an issue is the timing light. If you have a fancy timing light with advance and retard settings, your results will change base on the setting.

[Mikester]

This may or may not apply... A buddy of mine had chased his tail with a very similar issue for months... He found thru much trial and error that his cam timing was indeed one roller off... He reset everything proper; car now runs great.

OP- have you had this issue ever since you got the car, or did it run fine at one time then degrade?

[Wizard]

yeh ive had the problem since i picked the car up about a month ago, it was running ok with the cas fully turned but id rather it be in 100% condition. im finding out various random things about the car the previous owner didnt tell me and i wouldnt be surprised if the owner before him (who did the swap) changed the timing chain. and my timing light is just a normal harbor frieght one not too fancy haha but it seems to work well. any advice as to going about moving the cams a tooth over? i know i have to take tension off the chain then how would i go about moving the cams without having the possiblity of the chain slipping off the crank? ive heard of ziptieing the cams somehow not sure how tho when i plan to move them. ive never really messed with timing chains before but ive read up a lot so i know something. i might wait for a friend whos a mechanic to help me out but id kind of like to do it on my own. and thanks a lot for the advice so far cant wait to have this fixed!

[Mikester]

Take the valve cover off... Put the #1 at TDC on the power stroke (all 8 valves closed). If properly put together, you will see the tick marks on the cam sprockets at approximate 10 & 2 o'clock positions.

http://www.teamgeko.com/storage/2011-07-19-11-46-03-064.jpg?__

^^Sorry but it's a retarded-huge pic (Google not my friend today- and gov't computers have 56k speed internet)- can't post it smaller till I get home.

Anyway, note that in that configuration, there exactly 20 chain rollers between the two tick marks. If there 19 or 21, the BOOM- there's your problem.

Even though potential PITA, it only costs you a bit of your time to inspect. At least that way, you won't be throwing parts at it till the problem goes away.

[Wizard]

Take the valve cover off... Put the #1 at TDC on the power stroke (all 8 valves closed). If properly put together, you will see the tick marks on the cam sprockets at approximate 10 & 2 o'clock positions.

http://www.teamgeko.com/storage/2011-07-19-11-46-03-064.jpg?__

^^Sorry but it's a retarded-huge pic (Google not my friend today- and gov't computers have 56k speed internet)- can't post it smaller till I get home.

Anyway, note that in that configuration, there exactly 20 chain rollers between the two tick marks. If there 19 or 21, the BOOM- there's your problem.

Even though potential PITA, it only costs you a bit of your time to inspect. At least that way, you won't be throwing parts at it till the problem goes away.

ok i compared my picture to the one you posted and it doesnt really look any different actually they look exactly the same. 20 rollers between those two marks, the dowels are at 10 and 12 it all looks the same so what could be causing my problem do you have any ideas? that thread i posted before the guy said he lost slack on the exhaust cam to the crank, something like that and when he moved the cams forward a tooth and then back again his problem was solved cause the slack was gone? not really sure on that slack part, if thats actually what caused his problem id have to read the thread again but do you think its worth a shot to do that? cause right now i really dont know what else could be causing this problem. and to do that i would put the #1 piston at tdc 0* mark on the crank then release the tensioner while having the intake cam ziptied and i would just pull up on the chain near the exhaust cam and move it over on e tooth. am i right in saying that or am i missing anything? id also mark the chains location to the cam so i can move it back

[Wizard]

so i went ahead and moved my cams over a tooth and it didnt look any better so i moved them back and it made no difference i did notice some exposed wiring on the cas so im going to check that out tommorow it looked like it wasnt causing a problem but who knows maybe theres more.

[cotbu]

Your mechanical timing was already correct, 11 links dot to dot! I can't accurately gauge the rollers because of the vacuum line running in front of the cam gear on the intake side, but the exhaust side is retarded a roller.(meaning your #1 cams lobes on the exhaust are not correct) Put a wrench on the intake cam, and a socket on the exhaust cam and take out the slack moving the exhaust cam clockwise.
That's what it looks like too me.
You have to take better pictures that also show the cam gears fully and a shot that show the cam lobes.
All based on this image:

http://i44.tinypic.com/15odw7c.jpg

[zombiewolf513]

During timing chain or camshaft installation someone dropped the chain (knowingly or not) and it skipped a link pin on the crank gear. Then they used the black links (unknowing that theyve now been rendered useless) to align the mechanical timing on the cams. This is why you are on TDC, the cam dowel pins are in about the right place, there are 20 link pins between cam gear timing marks, but you cant get the cas stabbed without it being fully retarded or advanced. Evidence of this is the number one cam lobes being at the 9:30-ish and 2:30-ish position instead of 9 and 3 oclock while at TDC.

Double check all of this criteria is met simultaneously before you end up doing the procedure to fix a problem you dont really have. And do not ever assume the chain is installed so the gold link and timing links will ever align properly, thats mistake number 1 most of the time. This is for stock cam gears.

1) Crank is on TDC (2nd mark from left).
2) #1 Cam lobes are facing like this '<O C>' literally horizontally. And the butt of the exhaust side camshaft has a notch in it that looks like this '='
3) There are 20 link pins between the timing marks on the cam gears.
4) The dowel pin on the exhaust cam is perfectly upright and vertical.
5) the CAS has the orange mark lined up exactly with the slot once stabbed and is in between the bolts, well, just not close to all the way advanced or retarded.

To fix the whole "cant hit 15* without full advance or retarding of CAS" thing:

1) rotate the timing so that exhaust cam has its #1 lobe perfectly horizontal and facing outward.
2) remove intake cam gear.
3) adjust intake cam so its number 1 lobe is perfectly horizontal and facing outward.
4) leaving the cams exactly where they are, have a friend rotate the top of the chain while you turn the crank to exactly on the TDC mark.
5) install the intake cam gear and the chain onto both gears all at the same time so that there are 20 link pins between the timing marks on the gears. Keep in mind the slack in the chain will be primarily between the crank gear and intake cam gear and a little between the cams.
6) install CAS
7) install chain tensioner and rotate the crank twice around to realign the TDC mark, you should be on the power stroke (cam lobes 1 like this '<>').
8) double check criteria from before
9) check ignition timing.

If you cant hit 15* around the center of CAS travel after that, both of the timing lights you used are fucked up, you need to try another ECU and a 3rd CAS, then if its STILL fucked up, youll have to bring it to a professional SR20 guy to redo the procedure you just botched.

/thread

[Mikester]

ok i compared my picture to the one you posted and it doesnt really look any different actually they look exactly the same. 20 rollers between those two marks, the dowels are at 10 and 12 it all looks the same so what could be causing my problem do you have any ideas?

Sorry man- beyond verifying the timing is mechanically set properly & ignition components good to go; I don't have a clue...

Definitely interested to see what fixes this for ya.

[godsmack]

During timing chain or camshaft installation someone dropped the chain (knowingly or not) and it skipped a link pin on the crank gear. Then they used the black links (unknowing that theyve now been rendered useless) to align the mechanical timing on the cams. This is why you are on TDC, the cam dowel pins are in about the right place, there are 20 link pins between cam gear timing marks, but you cant get the cas stabbed without it being fully retarded or advanced. Evidence of this is the number one cam lobes being at the 9:30-ish and 2:30-ish position instead of 9 and 3 oclock while at TDC.

Double check all of this criteria is met simultaneously before you end up doing the procedure to fix a problem you dont really have. And do not ever assume the chain is installed so the gold link and timing links will ever align properly, thats mistake number 1 most of the time. This is for stock cam gears.

1) Crank is on TDC (2nd mark from left).
2) #1 Cam lobes are facing like this '<O C>' literally horizontally. And the butt of the exhaust side camshaft has a notch in it that looks like this '='
3) There are 20 link pins between the timing marks on the cam gears.
4) The dowel pin on the exhaust cam is perfectly upright and vertical.
5) the CAS has the orange mark lined up exactly with the slot once stabbed and is in between the bolts, well, just not close to all the way advanced or retarded.

To fix the whole "cant hit 15* without full advance or retarding of CAS" thing:

1) rotate the timing so that exhaust cam has its #1 lobe perfectly horizontal and facing outward.
2) remove intake cam gear.
3) adjust intake cam so its number 1 lobe is perfectly horizontal and facing outward.
4) leaving the cams exactly where they are, have a friend rotate the top of the chain while you turn the crank to exactly on the TDC mark.
5) install the intake cam gear and the chain onto both gears all at the same time so that there are 20 link pins between the timing marks on the gears. Keep in mind the slack in the chain will be primarily between the crank gear and intake cam gear and a little between the cams.
6) install CAS
7) install chain tensioner and rotate the crank twice around to realign the TDC mark, you should be on the power stroke (cam lobes 1 like this '<>').
8) double check criteria from before
9) check ignition timing.

If you cant hit 15* around the center of CAS travel after that, both of the timing lights you used are fucked up, you need to try another ECU and a 3rd CAS, then if its STILL fucked up, youll have to bring it to a professional SR20 guy to redo the procedure you just botched.

/thread

To add to this. I'm not 100% on the S13 sr's, but on the s14's the exhaust cam has 2 notches on the back side of it for you to put something flat in. You use that in order to keep the exhaust cam from turning when you rotate the crank slightly to tighten the slack in the chain on the exhaust side.

The back side that I am refering to is the side of the actual cam by the firewall.

[Wizard]

During timing chain or camshaft installation someone dropped the chain (knowingly or not) and it skipped a link pin on the crank gear. Then they used the black links (unknowing that theyve now been rendered useless) to align the mechanical timing on the cams. This is why you are on TDC, the cam dowel pins are in about the right place, there are 20 link pins between cam gear timing marks, but you cant get the cas stabbed without it being fully retarded or advanced. Evidence of this is the number one cam lobes being at the 9:30-ish and 2:30-ish position instead of 9 and 3 oclock while at TDC.

Double check all of this criteria is met simultaneously before you end up doing the procedure to fix a problem you dont really have. And do not ever assume the chain is installed so the gold link and timing links will ever align properly, thats mistake number 1 most of the time. This is for stock cam gears.

1) Crank is on TDC (2nd mark from left).
2) #1 Cam lobes are facing like this '<O C>' literally horizontally. And the butt of the exhaust side camshaft has a notch in it that looks like this '='
3) There are 20 link pins between the timing marks on the cam gears.
4) The dowel pin on the exhaust cam is perfectly upright and vertical.
5) the CAS has the orange mark lined up exactly with the slot once stabbed and is in between the bolts, well, just not close to all the way advanced or retarded.

To fix the whole "cant hit 15* without full advance or retarding of CAS" thing:

1) rotate the timing so that exhaust cam has its #1 lobe perfectly horizontal and facing outward.
2) remove intake cam gear.
3) adjust intake cam so its number 1 lobe is perfectly horizontal and facing outward.
4) leaving the cams exactly where they are, have a friend rotate the top of the chain while you turn the crank to exactly on the TDC mark.
5) install the intake cam gear and the chain onto both gears all at the same time so that there are 20 link pins between the timing marks on the gears. Keep in mind the slack in the chain will be primarily between the crank gear and intake cam gear and a little between the cams.
6) install CAS
7) install chain tensioner and rotate the crank twice around to realign the TDC mark, you should be on the power stroke (cam lobes 1 like this '<>').
8) double check criteria from before
9) check ignition timing.

If you cant hit 15* around the center of CAS travel after that, both of the timing lights you used are fucked up, you need to try another ECU and a 3rd CAS, then if its STILL fucked up, youll have to bring it to a professional SR20 guy to redo the procedure you just botched.

/thread

Thanks for all that to say the least, and to think i was beginning to give up hope today. ill pop the valve cover and take a look see what the lobes look like and check through your list hopefully tommorow if not sunday. then ill report back and if somethings off ill start with what you mentioned. now if i do have to go through your procedure do i have to pay special attention to keep the chain lifted up so it doesnt slip off the crank? thats about my only question for now but yeh im betting this is most likely the problem the previous owner seemed to really do things half assed as ive seen with many other things on my poor 240 :(

[zombiewolf513]

yes, pay special attention to not letting it slip to avoid dealing with another hastle. In reality if it skips on the crank again it doesnt really matter because the alignment is fucked up already as it is, but still dont let it happen. I always use an extremely trustworthy friend that knows nothing about engines to hold the top and make sure it turns smoothly while i turn the crank. I always tell them that if it falls at all ill have to rebuild the engine, that usually scares them into holding it nice and tight. :)

Now for the 'Im bored so heres a long-winded rant' part:
The dark and gold links are there to align everything, but if its messed up like i think it is, youll have to ignore them entirely until the engine needs to be rebuilt. Some guys (experienced and novice alike) get wrapped up into thinking that they HAVE to use the alignment links, and theyll spin the crank over and over by hand to line it up instead of just putting it on power stroke TDC and moving on. And then when the classic 'shit, im not sure but the chain may or may not have slipped' scenario comes into play, some people feel the need to take off the lower oil pan, baffle, pickup, upper oil pan, front cover, both cam gears, water pump pulley, crank pulley, belts, oil change, etc. just to realign the links all while the engine is in the car. That's just asinine, because you just wasted oil, ruined the seal of the headgasket on the front cover, you probably wont get liquidgasket back onto the upper oil pan unless you drop the cross member, and you just busted your ass to work around the radiator, hoses, all that bullshit, when you just had to basically unbolt the intake cam gear and count to 20.


Let us know how it goes :D

[zombiewolf513]

Oh, and if you do have to go through that procedure, DO NOT remove the intake cam to adjust it!!!! Only remove cams if they are in the absolute correct position (TDC on power stroke). I recommend using an adjustable wrench to grab the little nutshaped thing on the cam and rotating that way.

Or putting the bolt back on the front and using a socket to spin the cam.

[Wizard]

well ive been lazy and what not but i finally got around to checking and it meets all of your criteria zombie so i dont see a need to go through all that work. im thinking its the cas, the one i picked up was used so theres a good chance thats what it is. whats the best way to test them? i saw in the fsm you can measure the voltage it puts out by spinning the gear and make sure its witthin specs but ive heard a lot of the fsm is bs

[SR20RX7]

Did you ever figure out what the issue was? I have the exact same thing can only get 15deg with the Cas fully advanced.

[Ledheavy]

Heres my question, will advancing the timing past 15* benefit the sr at all????

[cotbu]

Yes, but it depends on things such as fuel.
I used to have a tune for 17deg, it made an extra 13hp 11tq with a gt28r running 18psi. With out the tune you should still see an increase in power but the stock tune might pull too much timing when you come into boost, it'll probably feel worse, blame knock sensor.

Sent from a Highly Tuned Note 4.5!!!

[Kingtal0n]

Its not a good idea to increase timing advance, especially on a turbo engine, when you are a novice.

[JustCallMeTakumi]

Did the op ever find the answer? I have this same problem...

[Tyler_240]

Did the op ever find the answer? I have this same problem...

Same problem? then read the thread, cotbu tells you how to fix it.

I had a similar issue, picked up a unfinished project, and eventually discovered the timing was off, both the intake/exh cams were off 2 teeth.

So...I had to verify TDC using a screwdriver, which matched up with the crank pulley, so i was good there. Then, you have to remove each cam one at a time, with the chain tied down, and rotate it. rinse and repeat.

Cotbu mentioned how to verify the cams themselves are in the correct position, #1 lobes should look like < >

turn engine by hand multiple rotations to check for interference...double check you have the correct number of links/pins between 10oclock and 12oclock.

finally, stab the CAS and it should be reasonably centered and not all the way one direction...

use the #1 spark plug method to check timing...if you dont have a console...make sure you have it in timing mode...if you advance/retard the cas and the ecu keeps correcting it, you are not in timing mode...

gl

[JustCallMeTakumi]

Same problem? then read the thread, cotbu tells you how to fix it.

I had a similar issue, picked up a unfinished project, and eventually discovered the timing was off, both the intake/exh cams were off 2 teeth.

So...I had to verify TDC using a screwdriver, which matched up with the crank pulley, so i was good there. Then, you have to remove each cam one at a time, with the chain tied down, and rotate it. rinse and repeat.

Cotbu mentioned how to verify the cams themselves are in the correct position, #1 lobes should look like < >

turn engine by hand multiple rotations to check for interference...double check you have the correct number of links/pins between 10oclock and 12oclock.

finally, stab the CAS and it should be reasonably centered and not all the way one direction...

use the #1 spark plug method to check timing...if you dont have a console...make sure you have it in timing mode...if you advance/retard the cas and the ecu keeps correcting it, you are not in timing mode...

gl

I've done all of this, my cam/mechanical timing is spot on because I just rebuilt the engine (have rechecked about 5 times since because my timing is so bad). I set my timing at 15 degree and it was perfect for a couple days, then started bogging bad and my timing was WAY off. Found out later that my ecu was chipped and tuned for sti injectors and z32 maf so I disabled the chip so it was stock and it ran perfect for about a week until I blew out a oring on my #4 injector which flooded the cylinder. Drained the engine of the gas, changed the oil, and fixed the oring problem and it was back up good, but no matter what I always have the knock sensor code, sometimes maf and ignition as well which I know the maf is good, but always 34 no matter what. Nistune is showing me that it pulls timing and adds fuel and puts me into the knock fuel and timing maps. To get 15 degrees I have to advance my cas nearly all the way. It bogs bad around the center and is super super slow if I don't advance it a ton which puts it where it's "supposed" to be. No matter what though it runs rich and hot.

[cotbu]

You have to get out of the knock map or you won't be able to correctly set timing. You can have the knock map rewritten but that's stupid disabling the knock sensor is a better option. Ultimately, you should fix the issues that you are having, clear codes set timing and done.

[JustCallMeTakumi]

You have to get out of the knock map or you won't be able to correctly set timing. You can have the knock map rewritten but that's stupid disabling the knock sensor is a better option. Ultimately, you should fix the issues that you are having, clear codes set timing and done.

That's what I'm trying to do. I'm going to go get a resistor today to see if it clears my code which will help me figure out where the problem is coming from. I just had my harness completely open yesterday and nothing was blatantly wrong. I have another harness to use as well in case. Don't know if the us harness for the knock is good or not either. I had it open and it was wired how it should be but I guess I'll see if I can get rid of the knock code before doing anything. I know that it is NOT my Ecu haha, but that's the only thing I'm certain of right now.

[Kingtal0n]

its worth mentioning that some timing lights are directional. if you hook the pickup to the coil wire backwards it will result with the CAS being far from center, despite seeing 15 at the crank. If this happens, simply reverse the pickup on the coilpack.

[JustCallMeTakumi]

I know that as well, but I cant correctly set my timing until I am out of the knock map becuase no matter what it will not be the correct timing map until that code is gone. I wired in a resistor and it did not clear the code so I thought ok the wiring from the ecu has got to be bad but it's not and is getting 5V. My new harness is coming in the mail next week, but I don't know if a bad ground on the harness or somewhere else could be causing the knock code. I am completely stumped.