RWD SR20VE musings

[Matej]

Hello,
This is something I have been curious about.
I know putting the SR20VE head on an RWD block requires tapping the head for the VVL feed line and swapping the oil pump and cover, which in turn necessitates a crank pulley spacer and a modded oil strainer, among other such tidbits.
To my understanding, most if not all of this is done to supply sufficient oil feed/pressure for the VVL system.

What I have been trying to find out is, which of those steps could be omitted if the solenoids and any removable part of the VVL system gets deleted?
What mods to the block/head would still be required to just run the head without the VVL?

I know that may sound blasphemous to many, especially since the VVL is a big part of the SR20VE, but it would still be great to take advantage of the better-flowing head, plus one would not have to deal with relocating, wiring, and activating the solenoids.

Is this even feasible?

Zilvia really needs a dedicated RWD SR20VE thread. :)

[jr_ss]

Your point is mute, with not using the VVL. The reason the head flows so well is because it has variable lift. You may be able to find a VVL killer and lock it on the high lobes, but then youll have to low end response.

You don't have to tap the block. You can use a tee where your oil pressure sensor is and feed the relocation blocks that way. Regardless, I think just swapping the "better" flowing head on will be pointless. As stated you'll need a VVL killer kit or custom cams to take full advantage of the head.

[Matej]

That is good information, thank you.

So basically the people who do not wire up the solenoids are not using the head to its potential, correct? I have seen a few RWD VE builds like that online, although many people building them do not seem to be experts either, so it has been difficult figuring out what is fact and what is hearsay.

[bardabe]

I had a theory for a customer who wanted that, there is a way to make it work without the solenoids, however all the modification to the pick up, oil pan and pump still have to get done. you would have to lock the rocker rails in the high lobe all the time. which in turn will run into a really loapy idle, and terrible low end driveability, but you still keep the benefit of the high rpm and flow capacity. however like i said it was a theory i never put it in practice.

[Matej]

Another idea that I have been pondering is using the complete SR20VE and just turning it sideways.

Apparently the RWD SR upper and lower oil pan fits, which in turn also makes all the bottom bell housing bolts line up.
Project Datto - racetech's 1200 SR20VE Project - CARforums.co.za (http://www.carforums.co.za/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=45728)

This was what I originally intended to do, and I have the clutch, starter, bell housing, and motor mount brackets figured out as well. However, I have been told that FWD motors have oil drains in the middle of the block which apparently would be bad, so it put a damper on my plans, although I have not been able to find pictures of how different it is on the FWD vs. RWD SR block.

[jr_ss]

Another idea that I have been pondering is using the complete SR20VE and just turning it sideways.

Apparently the RWD SR upper and lower oil pan fits, which in turn also makes all the bottom bell housing bolts line up.
Project Datto - racetech's 1200 SR20VE Project - CARforums.co.za (http://www.carforums.co.za/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=45728)

This was what I originally intended to do, and I have the clutch, starter, bell housing, and motor mount brackets figured out as well. However, I have been told that FWD motors have oil drains in the middle of the block which apparently would be bad, so it put a damper on my plans, although I have not been able to find pictures of how different it is on the FWD vs. RWD SR block.

You could do that but take note that the VE has weaker rods than the DET, just like the DE motors. VE motors dont like high hp running through its NA blood. They have thinner top ringlands and will pop at lower power levels than the DET. You'll also be using a distributor setup unless you convert to a crank angle sensor or hall effect sensor. There are some other small differences as well, but negligible. You'll still need the relocation plates because the solenoid block will not fit between the head and firewall/bulkhead. Either way you look at it you have work to do. You're best bet is to just slap a VE head on to the DET block.

As stated, you could custom make a VVL killer, which locks the rockers to use the high lobe, but you'll have no low end power at all.

[Matej]

My plan is actually to just keep it NA and reliable (hopefully), basically like a newer and better KA. :)
Possibly with the SR16VE N1 cams.

I would like to try and run it off the stock VE ECU, especially since I will most likely retain the distributor and just cut an opening for it in the firewall.
If I end up putting the head on an RWD block, I have been researching the possibility of running it off an S15 distributor and ECU.

Do you gentlemen experience any oil starvation at the sump/over-flooding at the top? I ask since the rear oil drain on the block gets plugged. Do you make a custom rear drain?

[jr_ss]

If you plan on keeping it NA then of course you are better off swapping a VE long block in. People have run them with the DETs coil/plug design, just need a trigger wheel. Obviously you'll also need a programmable ECU. I have also read about guys keeping the dizzy setup and using the fwd ecus. Then they run an external rpm based switch to activate the VVL and then tuning it from there. Personally, I don't see why you would stay NA after doing all the work for a measly 220-250ish whp with no torque, but my opinion is biased.

[b14 se-rious]

Your point is mute, with not using the VVL. The reason the head flows so well is because it has variable lift. .

This is FALSE

Have you looked at the size of the VVL ports next to a DE. The VVL has little to do with how well the head flows.

A VE head flows nearly double CFM what a DE head flows at the same lift.

Kelford makes a killer cam for VVL that was designed by Mazworx. Mazworx has stated they have a car that holds a nice steady idle on a high lobe with killer cams.

Its because of threads like this that terrible information spreads around.

[jr_ss]

This is FALSE

Have you looked at the size of the VVL ports next to a DE. The VVL has little to do with how well the head flows.

A VE head flows nearly double CFM what a DE head flows at the same lift.

Kelford makes a killer cam for VVL that was designed by Mazworx. Mazworx has stated they have a car that holds a nice steady idle on a high lobe with killer cams.

Its because of threads like this that terrible information spreads around.

Coming from the guy that thinks he can run N1 cams on a stock DET bottomend, yet has no clue that P11 cams are the highest lift/duration cams you can run without valve reliefs.:fawkd:

Port size, valve job, valve size, shrouded vs unshrouded, valve lift, stem size, etc, etc all play a major role in how well a head flows, not just port size, nor valve lift. The exhaust port on the VE is exactly the same size as the DET's, what goes in must come out. Your point is mute.

VE heads do not flow nearly double at the same lift either, I have personally flow benched my head. At .450 of lift, they(VE heads) flow 70cfm more on the intake and 82cfm more on the exhaust than an S13 high port head, which if you know anything about SR heads, is the best flowing of the two DET/DE designs. If you think that a VE flows nearly 400cfm from the factory(which would be double of a highport head) you're fucking high. They do flow a lot more CFM's but double is an over statement.

If anyone is spewing shit into the atmosphere, it's your mouth.

[b14 se-rious]

"The stock sr20det head flows 188.3 @ .300 lift a fully ported sr20det head flows 253.6 @ .300. A stock VE head flows 329 @ .300. "

Another person I know has flow benched it with similiar results.

Edit: Btw, very nice build :D

[jr_ss]

"The stock sr20det head flows 188.3 @ .300 lift a fully ported sr20det head flows 253.6 @ .300. A stock VE head flows 329 @ .300. "

Another person I know has flow benched it with similiar results.

Edit: Btw, very nice build :D

Not sure where you're getting your numbers, but those look more like ported VE head numbers than a stock untouched head. Especially, because .300 is 7.62mm of lift, which is less than max lift on the P11 low cam lobes. Those numbers above make it hard to believe and seem more like forum gibber jabber rather than actual test numbers. FYI, P11 cams are 8mm and 10.4mm of lift low/high.

Here is where I've gotten my VE head flow data and what my head actually flows supports those numbers found in the tests below. There is a lot of good head flow information in that thread, however, those claims of 300+CFMs are rubbish.

headflow data??? - Page 2 - SR20 Forum (http://www.sr20forum.com/sr20ve-sr16ve/150067-headflow-data-2.html)

[Matej]

How much room is there between the head and firewall when the head is on the RWD block?

Since I plan to just turn the entire motor sideways and the mount brackets will need to be modded anyway, I would like to see if I could move the motor forward a bit in order to fit the stock distributor in front of the firewall.
Initially I planned to cut out a chunk of the firewall behind the head and box it in, but if I could get away with only hammering it, that would be nice. And if the giant P11 distributor fits, then the solenoids will as well.

[jr_ss]

It's a bolt in affair, not sure why you would want to shift the motor forward just to accomodate the distributor/VVL solenoid block. Acquire RWD DET motor mounts and they should bolt on to the VE block.

I have stock DET clearances between firewall and head now with my block off plate bolted in. I'll have to measure for you later today...

[Matej]

From looking at pictures of the block, my assumption was that on the exhaust side it is missing a couple of the threaded holes that the mount brackets would bolt into on an RWD block. Perhaps I am getting ahead of myself, since my VE motor set has not even arrived yet.

And measurements would be great. You have been of big help, thank you sir.

[jr_ss]

I'm almost certain the the blocks are nearly identical. If that is the case, it may be as simple as drilling/tapping those bosses to accept the RWD engine mounts.

I'll get those measurements when I get home for you. Anything else you want measured while I'm at it? What chassis are you putting this in?

[Matej]

It is going in an S13.
Already got the flywheel/clutch and bell housing figured out, at least in theory.

Since I will be using my RWD upper and lower oil pans, should I also use the RWD strainer? Is the strainer a direct swap?

I want to try to use the stock VE ECU and engine harness, so the wiring will be the main obstacle. It seems people have gotten the RWD DE ECU to work with FWD DE's and vice versa, and people have used the VE ECU with FWD VE swaps, thus I am hoping it will be doable.

[jr_ss]

It is going in an S13.
Already got the flywheel/clutch and bell housing figured out, at least in theory.

Since I will be using my RWD upper and lower oil pans, should I also use the RWD strainer? Is the strainer a direct swap?

I want to try to use the stock VE ECU and engine harness, so the wiring will be the main obstacle. It seems people have gotten the RWD DE ECU to work with FWD DE's and vice versa, and people have used the VE ECU with FWD VE swaps, thus I am hoping it will be doable.

Clearance between MY S14 bulkhead and the head is 1-1.25" depending on where you measure. I also have a Mazworx Z32 transmission kit, which may pull the motor slightly farther back and pivot the engine/trans differently than the stock pieces. I'm rocking Nismo mounts as well.

Keep the VVL strainer, it is actually larger than the S14/S15 strainer. There is more oil volume demand in the VE motor to supply the VVL hydraulics, another reason the oil pump is larger.

I think the most common ECU setup is using the DE ECU and engine harness on the VE motors and just use an rpm based switch to control the VVL. Then they get the DE ECU tuned for the VE setup. The VE ECU may plug directly into the DE harness and you'll just need the switch to control VVL, but I haven't looked into the FWD version of the swap much.

The P11 motors use two solenoids because the switch over points are different for the exhaust and intake cams. On the P12 motors they switched both cams over at the same time. You can simplify the P11 setup and use one solenoid to switch both cams at the same time if you want. However, I think being able to find/tune the "best" switch over points for your setup is a better option, this setup however needs both solenoids and two rpm switches.

Let me know if you need anything else.

[Matej]

Thank you!
What did you do for your exhaust manifold? Are you using a DET one, or custom?

[jr_ss]

Thank you!
What did you do for your exhaust manifold? Are you using a DET one, or custom?

I had a top mount setup on my S14 SR before I went this route, so I just elongated the stud hole in that manifold. You can order manifolds with the VE flange though. The VE exhaust ports are the same diameter and have the same centerlines as the DE/DET heads and the bolt pattern is identical. However, the ports are just about .125" higher on the head bolt pattern which means that the manifold would hang down in the exhaust ports discharge if the holes weren't elongated on a DE/DET mani. When I bolted my manifold on, I used a borescope to make sure that the flange wasnt hanging down in the ports discharge.

[Matej]

Is there any place to purchase the VE exhaust flange? My plan is to use a generic KA header with a VE flange, but finding one seems to be harder than I thought it would be.

[jr_ss]

Is there any place to purchase the VE exhaust flange? My plan is to use a generic KA header with a VE flange, but finding one seems to be harder than I thought it would be.

SR20DET/VE - Fabrication Materials - Mazworx (http://www.mazworx.com/product/fabrication-materials/flanges/exhaust-manifold/nissan/sr20detve)

I would imagine any place that fabricates manifolds would be more than willing to cut/sell you a flange.

If you're going to stay NA, I would see if you could get your hands on a Fujitsubo NA SR header. I personally think they are better designed than these KA turds on the market.

[S14DB]

If you are going to get a generic header. Get a SR20DE one and slot the bolt holes to align the flange properly.

[Matej]

SR20DET/VE - Fabrication Materials - Mazworx (http://www.mazworx.com/product/fabrication-materials/flanges/exhaust-manifold/nissan/sr20detve)
Oops, thank you. Guess I should have actually used the menu instead of just the search box. I will ask them if they could sell me one that already has the holes drilled specifically for the VE.

I did look into SR20DE headers, and the Fujitsubo one is actually what my first choice would be. However, most of the SR headers I found are upwards of 400$ for beat up rusted ones, so unless I find one in good shape by then, a KA header will probably be a more convenient route.


P.S.
Just found out that none of the nice SR20DE headers clear the LHD steering column. Bummer.

[jr_ss]

P.S.
Just found out that none of the nice SR20DE headers clear the LHD steering column. Bummer.

That does bite, however I think I'd try to still acquire one and see what all has to be modified. Personally, I'd rather use something of higher quality to make or modify to work, than run a junk one that fits.

[Matej]

Perhaps the runners could be shortened at the top, to bring it closer to the motor.
The more I look at it, the more I want to get it and make it work.

http://i980.photobucket.com/albums/ae288/drags15/New%20Style%20Parts%20Ebay%20and%20Craigslist/719b5302.jpg

[jr_ss]

It does look pretty sweet... I was thinking it was longer than that, I.e. bolted to test pipe not factory dp.

Create an account on rinkya.com, it's a Japanese yahoo auction. I use to use it a few years ago, but a buddy screwed it up for me. They always had parts on there especially cars being parted, just a thought.

[Matej]

It does look pretty sweet... I was thinking it was longer than that, I.e. bolted to test pipe not factory dp.
It can be used with any SR turbo downpipe. I suppose if I happen to scrape or dent a generic downpipe I can just replace it and not despair as I would if it was a one-piece design.

There is one for sale right now tempting me. Although I have seen them go for less in the past, and with both pieces included.
¡¡£Ó15¡¡¥·¥ë¥Ó¥¢¡¡SR20DENA¡¡¥ª ¡¼¥Æ¥Ã¥¯¡¡¥¹¥Æ¥ó¥Þ¥Ë¥Û¡¼¥ ë¥É - Yahoo!¥ª¡¼¥¯¥·¥ç¥ó (http://page4.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/d133344027)

[jr_ss]

It can be used with any SR turbo downpipe. I suppose if I happen to scrape or dent a generic downpipe I can just replace it and not despair as I would if it was a one-piece design.

There is one for sale right now tempting me. Although I have seen them go for less in the past, and with both pieces included.
¡¡£Ó15¡¡¥·¥ë¥Ó¥¢¡¡SR20DENA¡¡¥ª ¡¼¥Æ¥Ã¥¯¡¡¥¹¥Æ¥ó¥Þ¥Ë¥Û¡¼¥ ë¥É - Yahoo!¥ª¡¼¥¯¥·¥ç¥ó (http://page4.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/d133344027)

That one looks like the flange is up higher and at a different angle than the one above. I can't view it translated on my phone, so I'll check it out later for details. I'll also see if I can't find something of interest and send it your way. If you're going to do it, no reason to make it half-assed...

[Matej]

Bump.
Would it be a bad idea to run a clutch fan on the VE water pump?
I was planning on doing so (with a fan clutch re-drilled to the FWD pattern, or I believe a CA18 fan clutch fits directly), however, since then I have read that running a clutch fan on a water pump not designed for the extra load wears out the pump very quickly.

[jr_ss]

Will a DET pump swap over? That would be your best bet.

I'm not sure how fast the added stress on the clutch fan would wear out the VE pump, if at all. I'm sure there is a limit to what the pump can handle. You would be adding rotating mass out away from the bearings causing a higher side loading.

[fliprayzin240sx]

I'd give it a shot. I mean, it wouldnt bo so hard to replace it if it does go bad. Figured, as long as the fan is balance and doesnt have a whole lot of harmonics on the pump, it shouldnt affect it too much.

[Matej]

Found this thread:
waterpump issues : CA18DE / CA18DET Forum (http://forums.nicoclub.com/waterpump-issues-t391391.html)
Granted, they are old CA18 pumps, but I think I will go with electric fans just to be safe.

Also, I obtained an OEM S15 SR20DE exhaust manifold and discovered that it fits onto the VE head directly, without needing to have the holes slotted.
So the OEM S15 turbo manifold will probably fit directly as well.

[Matej]

Bump.

The 20V single solenoid bolts onto the P11/SR16VE head, and apparently clears the firewall in an RWD configuration. Not sure if when using the head on a DE(T) block one would still need the oil feed line, but if not, it would eliminate the need for relocating the twin solenoids.
The single solenoid can only switch both cams at the same time, but most people seem to configure their twin solenoids to do the same anyway.
If one obtains the P12/X-Trail motor, they are all set.


P11/16VE solenoids.
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/soNeoed/EngineConversion2/DSCF3095.jpg
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/soNeoed/EngineConversion2/DSCF3055.jpg


20V.
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/soNeoed/EngineConversion2/DSCF3048.jpg
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/soNeoed/EngineConversion2/DSCF3052.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/str8e180/SR20VE.jpg

[jr_ss]

I still think it would be extremely tight on the S14 chassis based on my observation with my motorset. Good to actually see the mounting plate surface though, seems to be almost identical with the P11's.

I'm convinced there is more space behind the motor in the S13 than there is in the S14

[Matej]

I still think it would be extremely tight on the S14 chassis based on my observation with my motorset.
Cutting off the end that sticks out should fix that, since it is just an unused bolt hole. Then it would stick out no further than the CAS.

However, the seam on the firewall may need to be cut/bent, judging by the picture of the S13 above. I am not too keen on doing that, so I will try using lower motor mounts. From looking at pictures online it seems that S14's actually have the seam much higher, which must definitely be nice for the VE swap. :)

[jr_ss]

That's just it, the P12 CAS would not work on my car/motorset. It hit the bulkhead and intruded by a good inch towards the center where it bulges out.

[jr_ss]

I don't think the S13 or S14 pinch/seam is bigger on either car, just on the S14 the bulkhead bulges out towards the engine bay more than the flat S13 bulkhead.

[Matej]

That is interesting indeed. Others seem to be able to get away with the P12 CAS. I wonder why it is not fitting in your car. The only things causing it could be the motor mounts and cross member, though I do not see why they would.

And I think the S14 seam is actually bigger, but it appears to sit higher, at least from what I can tell.

[jr_ss]

Perhaps it's my setup, Nismo mounts with Mazworx Z32 crossmember/transmission, but it's not different than an Sr transmission and crossmember distance wise...

[rbs14kouki]

If you want more room with the firewall ! My tuner did this set-up on is race car and now does it to every ve swap or almost !

If im not mistaken : U need the stock distributor (for parts...he weld the parts that goes into the cam to the epm) and a aem epm for honda (need a little griding to have the bolt to fit on the ve head) !


Here are pics
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa74/rbs14kouki/random%20cars/image-3.jpg (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/rbs14kouki/media/random%20cars/image-3.jpg.html)

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa74/rbs14kouki/random%20cars/image-2.jpg (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/rbs14kouki/media/random%20cars/image-2.jpg.html)

[rbs14kouki]

I personaly went with the mazworx hallsensor ! If i would of waited abit more i would of chose Taarks hallsensor that way i would of saved machining my head to fit te sensor !

On my engine i also have the mazworx conversion kit but o didnt like the way the line were going behind de shock tower so i did custom lines to hide it

Here are pics of my set-up

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa74/rbs14kouki/Sr20vet%20built/image-14.jpg (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/rbs14kouki/media/Sr20vet%20built/image-14.jpg.html)

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa74/rbs14kouki/Sr20vet%20built/image-15.jpg (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/rbs14kouki/media/Sr20vet%20built/image-15.jpg.html)

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa74/rbs14kouki/Sr20vet%20built/image-16.jpg (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/rbs14kouki/media/Sr20vet%20built/image-16.jpg.html)

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa74/rbs14kouki/Sr20vet%20built/image-17.jpg (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/rbs14kouki/media/Sr20vet%20built/image-17.jpg.html)

[jr_ss]

Matej, can you measure the 20V solenoid block from the back of the head to the furthest point out? I'd like to go measure mine and see what the available room is. Not that I plan on swapping them out, I like the idea of switching both cams and different rpm ranges.

[Matej]

Would love to, when I obtain one. :)


More silly discoveries:
There is no need to mod the RWD oil pickup or buy the Mazworx one. Just buy a 370Z/G37 oil pickup. It bolts right on, has the correct diameter, sits in the proper place in the oil pan, and costs 20-30$ new.
The late model 350Z/G35 (with the newer oil pan) uses the same pickup as well, just do not use the early model one because it is bad.

[jr_ss]

Do you have pictures of said 370z setup installed?

[Yellow4g63]

Yeah no shit how about some pics.

[Matej]

Waiting on my oil pan baffle and strainer gasket to come in. I do not like putting parts on until I have everything necessary. :)
The VQ37 pickup is basically the same style as the VE, except the slit is oriented for an RWD configuration, and it sits lower.

[Matej]

The 370Z/G37 strainer did not work out after all. It is a few millimeters too tall and/or a few degrees off. It could be mended by cutting and welding it, but my goal was to find an OEM pickup that would fit without needing to be modded.
There are a couple of others I will be test-fitting. Nearly every Nissan V6 and V8 uses the same oil pickup tube diamater and flange bolt pattern, so I have been trying to find ones that look as if they could work.


It would be neat if someone mass-produced a 'cup' similar to this that could fit the distributor. Preferably with the end removable from the inside, thus allowing access to the distributor from under the dash. Maybe I will use a cooking pot or something, or just drive with a hole in the firewall.
http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt51/mazworx/vvl_24.jpg


Also installed a crank scraper.
http://matejblahut.com/media/photo/object/auto/part/scrape.jpg

[Yellow4g63]

well it's still good to know. Thanks for the update.

[Matej]

To keep up with the title of the thread, here is a set of VVL 'killer' cams.

http://www.mazworx.com/pics/IMG_4719.jpg
http://www.mazworx.com/pics/IMG_4720.jpg


This car is powered by a VE with similar cams. It currently holds the Bonneville land speed record in the 2.0L and under production class.
WvEVjpS7ha8


This car is powered by an SR15VET and also holds some sort of a class record at Bonneville. Cool!
http://photos.motoiq.com/MotoIQ/Project-Cars/LSR-S13/i-G26x5ht/1/L/6E5A7820-L.jpg
http://photos.motoiq.com/MotoIQ/Project-Cars/LSR-S13/i-L8cqVXF/1/L/6E5A1477-L.jpg

[jr_ss]

The S13 has a class record at 165.5mph. There is a full article on Motoiq about that car.

Edit- the NX sounds cool and all, but if you plan on driving your car on public roads, I'd consider that a nightmare. No low-end and did you hear how long he had to slip that clutch to get it moving? Now, I understand he probably has a long gear in there for top-end runs, but it doesn't sound like it would be fun at all.

[Matej]

Edit- the NX sounds cool and all, but if you plan on driving your car on public roads, I'd consider that a nightmare. No low-end and did you hear how long he had to slip that clutch to get it moving? Now, I understand he probably has a long gear in there for top-end runs, but it doesn't sound like it would be fun at all.
The NX was only posted for fun. I have long abandoned the idea if eliminating the VVL on a street car, but Zilvia will not allow me to alter the thread title. :)


Regarding the 20V solenoid on the P11 head, there is a small issue with the placement of the oil return slot, which is moved over a bit.

P11.
http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr178/Socalvvl/f46f2c20-2bb7-4425-850c-9dcd109e5684_zps72e4debb.jpg

P12.
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/soNeoed/EngineConversion2/DSCF3052.jpg


Here is how someone on the internet solved it.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v625/ddon/1-5.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v625/ddon/2-5.jpg


However, this fellow who seems to know quite a bit about the magical VVL process claims that it is alright to block the oil return off completely. Interesting.
I'm pretty certain the oil return slot doesn't need to be cut on the 20V solenoid housing/block in order to work with the 20VE head. The oil return is to relieve the oil pressure in the hollow rockershafts.. It just help to go out of vvl quicker. It does not effect how fast vvl goes on. The oil already has a place to escape through the rocker arm oil squirter hole. Check out some new photos.
VVL: how it works (http://www.sr20-forum.com/vvl/67552-vvl-how-works.html)
Yes, I'm pretty confident the 20V solenoid housing will work without having to cut the slot for the oil return. Again, the oil return slot is for the oil in the hollow rocker shafts to return to the oil pan. It's like a very weak oil pressure relief valve.

When the solenoids are activated, the oil travel through the rocker shafts and pushes the rocker arm pistons to activate the big cams. So what happens to the oil pressure when solenoids are off? It will escape through the rocker arm oil squirter and through the return oil valve in the solenoids. If you use the 20V solenoid housing on the 20VE head, some of the oil can't return to the return oil hole in the head and only through the rocker arm hole where it will eventually make it way back to the oil pan. The only possible long term problem I see with this route is if you don't kick in the big cams enough time. Like once a month or longer, and letting the engine sit for a year without usage. Then the oil in the return chamber in the solenoid housing gets cook and become gummy, since it just sits there.

Here's a picture of the solenoids. You will notice there are three different sections on the solenoids and each section correspond with the three chambers in the solenoid housing. All of the chambers are seal off from each other by the tight tolerance fit between the solenoid body and housing. Chamber #1 act as oil reservoir and holds the oil. Chamber #2(to cams) directs the oil to the rocker shafts and cams once the solenoid is activated and the plunger moves up to let the oil in. When the plunger moves up it will allow the oil to come into chamber #2 but it will also seal off chamber #3(oil return chamber) from the oil. The oil in rocker shafts will only go to chamber #3 if the solenoid is off (plunger move back down) and if the oil pressure is great enough to overcome the ball bearing valve with a very small weak spring(doesn't take much pressure to overcome it) in chamber #3. So in the VVL scheme, IMO, the oil return hole is not that important.

http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr178/Socalvvl/e48057ac-0e36-4341-ac9c-f81cc9d67026_zps1df01874.jpg (http://s481.photobucket.com/user/Socalvvl/media/e48057ac-0e36-4341-ac9c-f81cc9d67026_zps1df01874.jpg.html)

[Matej]

Thank you for updating the title, whoever is responsible. :)


Came across a blog about the old Scorch S14. I did not know it had an NA VE.
シルビアNAï½œã‚¹ã‚³ãƒ¼ãƒä½ œæ¥*日記 (http://ameblo.jp/scorch/entry-10236646058.html)

[TEALSQUEAL]

Bump it up! More ve talk. My stuff from taarks is shipped. I'll get my pics up when I get it all.

[jr_ss]

One thing I'm curious about is compression numbers. I have yet to find any solid information as to what a VE head swap and DET bottom end should yield. I'm assuming it should be in the 170-180ish range, but that is a best guess scenario. However, I have seen some claims that people are in the 210-220ish range with the DE bottomend on a VE head swap. Anyone have solid numbers they'd like to share? I know what my sitting for 3yrs motor has cold, but I'd like something to compare it too.

[Yellow4g63]

DE pistons with VE head = 10.1 so the DET should be 9.0 prob. Teal did you get the Taarks Cam sensor kit?

[jr_ss]

DE pistons with VE head = 10.1 so the DET should be 9.0 prob. Teal did you get the Taarks Cam sensor kit?

I'm not talking about static compression. I'm speaking specially about actual compression.

[TEALSQUEAL]

Yellow, yes I got the timing kit, water neck setup, and timing relocation all for $450 usd shipped. I wanted their oil blocks because they look better than Mazworx and they come with fittings, but got tired of trying to sell my Mazworx setup with all the typical lowballers on this site and their eBay dreams.

[Yellow4g63]

My stock VE motor pulled 210, When I built it with SR16VE pistons the numbers were even higher and I had huge Franklin stage 4's in them. I hit around 280psi. I think your guess will be right on the money.

[Yellow4g63]

Yellow, yes I got the timing kit, water neck setup, and timing relocation all for $450 usd shipped. I wanted their oil blocks because they look better than Mazworx and they come with fittings, but got tired of trying to sell my Mazworx setup with all the typical lowballers on this site and their eBay dreams.

That's a very good deal!

[Matej]

Yellow, yes I got the timing kit, water neck setup, and timing relocation all for $450 usd shipped.
Their water neck looks neat, I plan to order it as well. Though I wonder if it will fit with my top-mount oil filter housing.

Does anyone know by how many degrees exactly does the RWD pulley sit clocked at TDC in relation to the timing pin on the VE oil pump cover?
I am considering switching to an RWD pulley, just so I can use an RWD water pump with clutch fan, along with an RWD alternator setup.


However, I have seen some claims that people are in the 210-220ish range with the DE bottomend on a VE head swap.
A 'healthy' VE is around 220, though it can range anywhere between 200-240.
A VE block is the same as a FWD DE block, and I have heard before that the RWD DE block is internally the same as the FWD DE, so those numbers sound about correct according to the transitive property.

[jr_ss]

Does anyone know by how many degrees exactly does the RWD pulley sit clocked at TDC in relation to the timing pin on the VE oil pump cover?
I am considering switching to an RWD pulley, just so I can use an RWD water pump with clutch fan, along with an RWD alternator setup.

You can use the VE crank pulley, you'll just need to have 5mm milled off the back side of it so it lines up with the RWD accessories. However, I cannot tell you the degrees because I am running the VE crank pulley.

A 'healthy' VE is around 220, though it can range anywhere between 200-240.
A VE block is the same as a FWD DE block, and I have heard before that the RWD DE block is internally the same as the FWD DE, so those numbers sound about correct according to the transitive property.

Yeah, I've seen plenty of information on the VE and VE/DE compression numbers. I'm more so interested in the VE/DET numbers. I'm not sure what 1.5-1.8 points in lower static compression yields in overall compression.

[Matej]

You can use the VE crank pulley, you'll just need to have 5mm milled off the back side of it so it lines up with the RWD accessories. However, I cannot tell you the degrees because I am running the VE crank pulley.
Is milling off 5mm even possible? The VE pulley is already right up on the cover. :)
Do you run the alternator and water pump off of the front 6-rib ring, or the smaller 4-rib one?

Now I regret selling the single-belt Ross pulley I had. I think I will buy another one and use the spacer with it.
http://matejblahut.com/media/photo/buyselltrade/auto/harmonic.jpg

[jr_ss]

My crank pulley is pretty damn close to the cover. Mazworx has stated you needed to mill 5mm off and I'm running their original VET setup. I'm using the rear two belt provisions, alternator and water pump and power steering, no A/C currently.

I sold my old ATI damper and was kicking myself for it when I realized it just needed to be milled. I'll acquire another one in the near future.

[rbs14kouki]

On my sr20vet ! Im running the

- det crank pulley
- ve oil pump spacer
- all det acc. (Power steering and alt)
- i had to shave my crank pulley by about 5mm


http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa74/rbs14kouki/Sr20vet%20built/image-19.jpg (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/rbs14kouki/media/Sr20vet%20built/image-19.jpg.html)

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa74/rbs14kouki/Sr20vet%20built/image-20.jpg (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/rbs14kouki/media/Sr20vet%20built/image-20.jpg.html)

[jr_ss]

Matej, I'm sorry. I too am running the DET pulley, which gets milled 5mm to line up for the DET accessories. Not sure why I said VE pulley, idiot.

[Matej]

No big deal. :)
The thing that is confusing me, why do people space out the pulley, only to have to machine out 5mm from the back of it? I am sure there is a reason, so I am curious what it is.
Or when people say 'spacer,' do they mean the oil pump drive collar? I know the drive collar is longer on the VE than the DE one.

[jr_ss]

Without the spacer on the milled setup, when you tighten down on the crank pulley bolt you actually bind the oil pump, which prevents the motor from rotating. I'm not sure why you would have to mill 5mm off only to add a .125" shim. The only reason I can think of is, it's because of the oil pump crank collar sticking out an extra 5mm and the crank pulley not designed/shaped to slide into the oil pump. Thus needing the spacer to slide into the oil pump.

[Matej]

Alright, for some reason I was under the impression that the DE crank pulley 'neck' is shorter than the VE one, but it is actually longer. That would make sense.
How To: Crank pulley -- Oil Pump -- Spacer (all common combinations explained!) (http://www.sr20-forum.com/howto-s/24618-how-crank-pulley-oil-pump-spacer-all-common-combinations-explained.html) (I assume it is the same case for both FWD and RWD.)

[rbs14kouki]

The de oil pump spacer is short ! You need to use the mazworx or other companie spacer to bring it to right lenght !

And after that mill down you crank pulley


I went strait with the ve oil pump spacer (so no need to add the mazworx spacer) and mill down my crank pulley 4 or 5 mm

[Yellow4g63]

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y236/jodrift/Jodrift%202013/sr20veoilpump_zps7c725643.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/jodrift/media/Jodrift%202013/sr20veoilpump_zps7c725643.jpg.html)

if you don't mill the det pulley with the VE oil pump.

[Matej]

That all sounds unnecessarily complicated for what I want, which is to use the S13 water pump and run a clutch fan.

I suppose I will just stick with my initial plan of using e-fans and doing this.
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd122/kidblaze06/CIMG1507.jpg

[Matej]

By the way, it would have been quite easy to hook up the stock FWD VE accessories, even though they are on opposite sides. For the power steering, one would just need to use RHD lines and run them under the motor, and move the reservoir to the passenger side. In the same manner, for the alternator, the only requirement would be to extend the wiring.

The only reason why I started messing with relocating the alternator is because I am doing a custom manual steering rack setup, so I want to run a single belt. Though another benefit of having it on that side is that other than for the distributor connector, a KA24DE engine harness will be plug-and-play. :)

Mating the RWD is transmission to the FWD block is also nowhere near as difficult as I was initially led to believe.

[rbs14kouki]

Did you guys knew that we can use harley davidson valve shim to reshim the ve head to proper spec !!! They cost 1/4 of the price

I bought all my shim needed from them

They had a kit just like that : Hot Cams Valve Shim Kits (http://www.cyclebuy.com/shopping/hotcams/shimkits.htm)

[Yellow4g63]

I used the Harley Vrod shims on my N/A VE motor. They have another shim kit out on the market too it's not from harley tho I forget the who it was. I found the info on the sr20-forum.

[Matej]

For the oil pickup, I bought an SR16VE one. It is about the same height as the SR20VE pickup, but it has the added bracing, and the best part is that it actually sits further back. The 20VE pickup is centered in the RWD oil baffle opening, while the 16VE one sits closer to the rear wall of the pan.

(Not my picture.)
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f285/lynch420/Picture025-3.jpg


As for making it sit at the proper depth, I am deciding between two options.
The first would be to use an oil pickup spacer, such as the one from the 370Z oil pan spacer kits, and having it machined down to 12-15mm, which is how much taller the RWD pickup is. I inquired about buying just the pickup spacer separately, and the two companies that replied quoted me under 20$ shipped. :)
http://www.jimwolftechnology.com/images/VQ-OIL-PAN-SPACER-KIT-SMALL.jpg

The second option would be to have the pan shortened by 12-15mm. Some capacity would be lost, though if it is an aftermarket pan it should still hold more oil than the stock one. The advantage of this way is that the pan would be further out of harm's way on a lowered car, and I probably would not need a skid plate. However, it would be a bother to have to find someone who would be able to do this professionally.

[GroundPerformance]

Or you can buy them ready to go with no hassle for about 130 @ Mazworx.

Oil Pickup - VVL/VE Conversion Parts - Mazworx (http://www.mazworx.com/product/vvlve-conversion-parts/oil-pickup)

http://www.mazworx.com/content/products/16047/thumb.jpg

[GroundPerformance]

Most of the comments here is actually how I'm building my current SR20VET build. P11 Head with P12 VVL Solenoid, CAS Sensor, Ignition Coil packs. Firewall will clear but very tight on 20V CAS but nothing a little smacking on the firewall can't fix. Besides it would hardly be even noticeable. I like this build since it brings a bit challenge since most I know thinks they would have to go all out with fancy parts to make this happen. But in reality it can be done for relatively reasonable amount if you shop around and think outside the box. Think of this if you're willing to invest on Solid lifters, Cams, and other Headwork related upgrades to improve what already a bad Roller Rocker head. You can afford this..

[Matej]

Or you can buy them ready to go with no hassle for about 130 @ Mazworx.
Indeed, but there is nothing for me to bolt the arm to, since my engine does not have a girdle, plus I just like the newer style better than the bulky old one.

My ideology behind my motor is to use as many OEM or 'off-the-shelf' parts as possible, so in case something breaks I will not need another one-off/custom part.
In following my own logic, I suppose the pickup spacer would be the way for me to go with.

[GroundPerformance]

I'm assuming RWD SR Short Block, VE Pump/Cover, VE Head on a S-Chassis?

[rbs14kouki]

He's using a fwd ve with a adaptor kit for rwd transmission !

[GroundPerformance]

Ok.. Whole FWD SR20VE longblock with RWD tranny adapted..? It seems IMO might be a lot more work.. But its definitely different and very interesting.

[Matej]

It is not too bad. There are two ways I am deciding between.

One is to use the RWD oil pan, which makes all the bolts besides the starter area ones mate up. I would just make a custom dust shield to cover any openings and grind out the transmission for the FWD starter to fit.
http://www.race-tech.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Datto24April24.jpg
http://www.race-tech.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Datto24April18.jpg


The other option would be to use the complete motor and have the front of the FWD bell housing welded to the RWD one.
http://datsun1200.com/modules/myalbum/photos/12511.jpg
http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/2213/img0022zg.jpg


There are minor pros and cons to either way.

[TEALSQUEAL]

Great info on the Harley shims!!! I shimmed my intake and exhaust cams on the tight side of clearances.

[Matej]

SR16VE pickup with spacer.

http://irony.cc/media/photo/object/auto/part/pickmeup.jpg

[Matej]

RWD upper oil pan on the FWD block.

http://irony.cc/media/photo/object/auto/part/oilpandemic.jpg

[Matej]

Gentlemen with VVL heads, do you gasket-match the exhaust manifold to the VE gasket? It seems that it should be beneficial, especially since one of the main advantages of the VE is better breathing, not to mention it is one of the only Nissan 4-cylinders that actually sees significant gains from a good header setup.
Though at the same time I do not really want to go wild with a dremel on my header flange if the difference will be negligible.

[Yellow4g63]

make the bolt holes bigger so you can make the ports match.

[Matej]

make the bolt holes bigger so you can make the ports match.
Manifolds made to fit S15 SR's actually do not even need the holes slotted.

However, I meant matching the head side of the header flange to the VVL gasket.
Basically, grinding out the protruding material to match the gasket and make for a smooth transition from the head to the header.
Not an SR header, but similar to this.
http://memimage.cardomain.com/member_images/7/web/259000-259999/259649_31_full.jpg

[jr_ss]

There was no need to open my gasket up nor the ports in my manifold. The PeakBoost was already slightly larger than the VE ports, which are no bigger(just higher) than the DET ports. If they are bigger, it's negligible and not visible by the naked eye. I didn't notice any difference with the VE and an S14 head next to each other.

[Matej]

Interesting. If the manifold already comes with over-sized inlets then I suppose all you need to do to take full advantage of it is use the VE gasket.
I will be using either the 3-layer P12 gasket or the 7-layer X-trail one, which are similar to the multi-layer S15 gasket.
I noticed that the difference between them is not necessarily the size of the exhaust ports, but rather that the ports on the VE head are spaced slightly further apart.

[jr_ss]

Interesting. If the manifold already comes with over-sized inlets then I suppose all you need to do to take full advantage of it is use the VE gasket.
I will be using either the 3-layer P12 gasket or the 7-layer X-trail one, which are similar to the multi-layer S15 gasket.
I noticed that the difference between them is not necessarily the size of the exhaust ports, but rather that the ports on the VE head are spaced slightly further apart.

As far as I am aware, port centerlines and spacing are identical to the DE and DET. The only thing that was changed was raising the ports in the head for the change in cooling passages and valve angle.

I believe I used the 7 layer exhaust manifold gasket, with which I checked intrusion into the ports and overall port ID to the head. All were well clear without massaging it.

[rbs14kouki]

im using the gasket that mazworx sales ... its a sr20vet

for the manifold , i use a Docrace unit ... they now make one for the sr20ve application . i sent them a flange and they copied it . they now offer the manifold in there line-up !!!!

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa74/rbs14kouki/Sr20vet%20built/image-31.jpg

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa74/rbs14kouki/Sr20vet%20built/image-39.jpg

[Matej]

Fitted the Autech header and it seems to match the VE gasket. Yay.

http://irony.cc/media/photo/object/auto/part/f1racespec.jpg

[Matej]

RWD motor mounts, upper and lower oil pan, on VE block
http://matejblahut.com/media/photo/object/auto/part/rwdve.jpg
http://matejblahut.com/media/photo/object/auto/part/rwdve2.jpg

[TheRealSy90]

This is pretty cool. Seems putting the fwd engine in is easy so far, i'm just wondering about the starter. So the trans bolted up just by swapping the upper pan?

[Matej]

This is pretty cool. Seems putting the fwd engine in is easy so far, i'm just wondering about the starter. So the trans bolted up just by swapping the upper pan?
With the upper oil pan, all but the starter bolts and one or two transmission bolts on that side of the motor line up.
Both the FWD and RWD flywheel ring gears are the same size with the same amount of teeth, which makes things easier.

The VE starter has a nose cone, as do many of the FWD DE starters. They could still be used with a FWD flywheel mated to an 1988 Pulsar clutch. However, the FWD flywheel and clutch are only 215mm, so I am not sure how they would hold up for drifting. The bell housing would also need to be shaved to fit the nose of the starter.
http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff422/Andreas_Miko/Starters.jpg

However, some of the FWD motors came with this style of starter. It will clear even the RWD flywheel and does not require modding the transmission. I will bolt it directly to the dust shield instead of through the bell housing. It will be annoying to have to unbolt the transmission to remove the starter, but that will be the simplest way to mount it so far, unless I have the bell housing modded.
http://www.am-autoimages.com/partimage/EST/AM-25443950/main.JPG

If people can mate Z32 and Z33 gearboxes to an SR, I can mate an RWD gearbox to a FWD motor. :)

[Goldhawg]

bump for updates?

[joeapple8]

any updates?

[TheRealSy90]

In for updates.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Matej]

This project is long sold, sorry gentlemen. I do still have the Autech header and a few other bits, if anybody wants anything.

In my opinion, it is still a better option to convert the entire engine to RWD instead of bothering with the extra headaches of swapping the head.

[TheRealSy90]

This project is long sold, sorry gentlemen. I do still have the Autech header and a few other bits, if anybody wants anything.

In my opinion, it is still a better option to convert the entire engine to RWD instead of bothering with the extra headaches of swapping the head.

What did you have to do to bolt the motor mount brackets to the block? I keep coming back to this idea of an sr20de/ve with an s15 6sp for a fun daily.

Does the rwd flywheel bolt to the fwd crank?