Timing help!

[socalarea]

My 240sx s13 KA24DE had the timing chain replaced by previous owner. However, timing is around 10 degrees and the distributor is fully advanced just to run. A mechanic checked the timing and says it is set correctly however the car still cannot achieve correct timing. I have a picture from the mechanic showing the timing set correctly with the two upper cams.

It has all the symptoms of a timing chain off by a tooth e.g. sluggish, dist timing advanced all the way forward to run semi decent but again mechanic says he confirmed timing chain is correctly placed after removing upper timing cover and valve cover to inspect.

upper timing chain (cams) was moved up and backwards a tooth just to be sure but didn't help;
ECU was temporarily replaced, but didn't solve it;
Distributor was re-installed with gear forward ans backwards with no improvement;
Distributor was replaced with another for testing but same problem;
knock sensor harness checked but seems fine.

It's odd as it all adds up to the chain being off a tooth of what I've read about this problem but seeming it isn't. If anyone has any experience with this before, please let me know. Thanks for any help.

[ka4life87]

check the woodruff key on crank pulley, if broken or missing crank pulley is out of sync and gonna give u false readings

[socalarea]

Thanks for the input. The mech did check that and it was indeed broken or missing. We got another one and fixed it but that didn't resolve the problem.

[socalarea]

Here are some pics with the upper and lower timing covers off. The lower cover colored link chain is not set correctly however what I understand is the number of links from each mark on lower crank and upper idler pulley at tdc should be around 38.

Pictures by radianway - Photobucket (http://s1160.photobucket.com/albums/q481/radianway/)

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[socalarea]

Can anyone help?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9nzDBUrfT4&feature=youtu.be

[them240sx's]

my car is off on its timing too and the pictures look just like my engine, every thing is in the right position but the timing is way off and we dont know why or what to do about it

[Frank_Jaeger]

Do you have a picture of the cams with the engine at TDC?

[socalarea]

I have these pictures:

Pictures by radianway - Photobucket (http://s1160.photobucket.com/albums/q481/radianway/)

Hope it helps. Thanks.

[Kingtal0n]

change to an S13 sr20
/done

advice:
If you think the camshaft timing is off, then check it. Get yourself a dial indicator, and take off the valvecover and measure the cam lift as it opens the valve. measure what degree of crankshaft rotation that the camshaft begins to open the intake valve. Compare with FSM. Check both cams to make sure the crankshaft is in time with valve events.

[socalarea]

Thanks for the advice. I have had the car at the mechanic. He is telling me the timing is correct after initially removing the upper timing and valve covers, and ultimately to verify, the lower timing cover.

But what I find hard to understand is if the timing chain is set correctly, what else could cause the timing to be off and require the dist. to be fully advanced in order to run?

[Kingtal0n]

If the timing chain is correctly installed, and valve operation is proper.

What can cause the distributor to be mislocated?

Examine the distributor by itself for a moment. What determines where it winds up when it is installed? And why does position matter?

Better to ask- when piston one is Top Dead Center, Cylinder #1 should have just fired recently. Meaning if the timing is around 15* BTDC, then your distributor's rotor should be pointing just at cylinder #1 spark plug... It does not care about where the dist. gear is positioned.

Your grief is that this position happens to be offset from the standard OEM position.

possible causes may include:
Distributor drive gear has been repositioned/misadjusted/misinstalled
Rotor is misaligned/misinstalled/broken
distributor cap is misaligned
improper coil dwell/timing event retarded due to a failing capacitor
ECU is misadjusting or misinterpreting timing signal/wiring & communication related
camshaft timing is incorrect with respect to crankshaft
slipped harmonic balancer reporting incorrect timing (use a degree wheel)

some things to think about, many components can affect timing.

If the vehicle was here, and you wanted me to "fix" it, I would do the following:
Swap ECU for known good
Swap dist for known good
swap coil & wiring if necessary with known good
verify camshaft timing with indicator and crankshaft degree wheel

[socalarea]

Those are all valid points.

The mechanic did swap out the dist and ECU with known good. Dist was positioned correctly and rotor too. A test was done on the harness to the comp from the knock sensor also.

Unless the mechanic is wrong on his estimation of the timing chain being correct, this is very odd.

[Frank_Jaeger]

I have these pictures:

Pictures by radianway - Photobucket (http://s1160.photobucket.com/albums/q481/radianway/)

Hope it helps. Thanks.

I want a picture of the camshafts, not the cam gears. If you take off the vc, snap some.

[codyace]

I know this may sound simple, but he is installing the distributor with the engine at Top Dead Center (TDC) correct? I've seen even the best mechanics mess up their 0* marks.

[Walperstyle]

SEARCH YOUTUBE

Upper KA24DE timing explained
Lower KA24DE timing explained

...I made these video's for people like you, all you have to do is search man.

[Walperstyle]

I'm sorry I don't have a dizzy install video, but just look in the FSM and on youtube/google, its easy to see how it is suppose to work.

Just make sure the 1st lobes are facing outward, that is your TDC, but you don't want to install the cams unless the crank is also matching TDC. NO1 piston all the way to the top. They keyway on the crank pully (the notch that holds it in place) will also be facing stright up... just watch my vids for Chain related stuff, its easy.

[socalarea]

Thanks for all your input. I don't have a pic of the actual cam lobes at tdc but the mech confirmed with me they were in the correct position, along with #1 piston tdc and crank pully (notch) straight up. Also the dizzy was installed correctly too.

I did see both those videos mentioned. Here are some videos of my car by the mechanic with both timing covers off:

93 nissan 240sx ka24 timing chain mark - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9nzDBUrfT4&feature=youtu.be)


http://youtu.be/SIuNe76lk4U

Tell me what you think.

[socalarea]

Was anyone able to see the videos above? Tell me what you think...

[VespasAreSWAGG]

bump for a fellow neighbor

[VespasAreSWAGG]

BUMP! i literally have the exact same issues. like literally exact and its still the same.

[Jsal32]

In the OP's video the positioning of TDC on #1 cyl is questionable. You must make sure you start at TDC otherwise everything there after will be off.

Make sure #1 Cyl is at TDC and start with this:
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh185/nissan240sx12/78975287.gif

Once thats set you can move onto crank to cam timing. With the top chain NOT installed your cams should be in this position (looking at them in the from the front). Notice how the intake cam lobe is pointing a little bit more than 270 degrees and the exhaust lobe is pointing a little bit less than 90 degrees. The respective dowel pins are also another good point of reference (the big blue dots) notice how the intake cam dowel pin points in the same direction as the intake cam lobe. Notice how the exhaust cam dowel pin points to 0 degrees:
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e25/vancouverbc_2008/timing-04-1-1.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~rogoman/images/ka24de_timing_chain_marks.jpg

With that set proceed to installing the upper chain to their corresponding marks/links. If I remember correctly at least 1 of the cam gears will need to be loosened or completely off to facilitate chain installation. Start with the idler sprocket and proceed to the stationary cam gear and finally onto the loosened cam gear and torque to spec. Pay special attention to the spacing between links. There should be 6 links between the intake gear and exhaust gear, 6 links between exhaust gear an idler sprocket, and 9 links between idler sprocket and intake gear. If all is well it should look like this:
http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/RLHas/2009-10-05_183904_240SX_T_chain_Upper.gif

If all lines up until now....then you move onto the distributor timing/install.

With the distributor out set it to this:
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d31/5fingadiscount/ka014.jpg

The rotor should now install or be in this position:
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i126/grachman/valvecover028.jpg

Slowly and carefully install the distributor. If you didn't move it and it went in smooth then it should still look like the pics above with the straight cutout linjng up to the round mark close to the dizzy spline. The mounting ears of the distributor should be somewhat centered at the mounting holes like so:
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e25/vancouverbc_2008/timing-06.jpg


All of the things mentioned above can be found in your FSM and it might take a couple of tries to get it right. If the links/marks are not lined up correctly then just stop and do it again. It might be frustrating but take your time and once you get it you'll be very satisfied and setting timing the next time won't be so intimidating.

Good luck,

Jose