building topend

[crossett]

Ok i have a 93 240hatch with an s14 koiki front end conversion and i blow my head the other day. I was running an f350 and mu boost controller broke and boost jumped to 2 1/2 bars :/ motor is stock and i think it may have a turbo upgrade havent looked. So ill be building the topend but i have never done any internal motor work im a collision repair technician so im no car dummy and know i could do this but need some guidance. Im going to order new head gasket, studs, valves, cam shafts, springs and retainers. Im thinking ofgoing with apr studs and going with bc for everything else, maybe apexi for gasket.

If im missing anything pleaze let me know looking for 350 rwhp o and 264 cams is what im getting.
Any questions let me know. Thanks.

[AZ_BOY]

You forget the sprocket. And what's the turbo size are u going with ?

[crossett]

I wanna keep oe sprockets had good luck with my old disc potato :)

[AZ_BOY]

That's no problems. What's the turbo size ?

[TheRealSy90]

Cosworth head gasket. Dual groove rocker arm shims.

[eek]

Assuming you have a SR20det motor... Before you select your cams why don't you figure out what turbo you have? Depending on the trim size of your current turbo or whatever turbo you plan to get you should look into that before just choosing 260 cams. That's good you already have a power goal in mind, but you should also consider what you want to build your top end around. If the current turbo you have is say a gt2871rs .84 trim, i would suggest the 270 duration cams.

If you overboosted, are you SURE its just the head? I would check the bottom end.

Anyhow, typical build for a SR depending on what motor it is s13 or s14.

-Cams matched for the correct turbo size
If your cams are aggressive, then you will need new valve train (valve springs, retainers possibly solid lifters)
-Rocker arm stoppers if you decide to keep the hydro lifters
-Valves are up to u, if yours are bent get new ones, oem are fine
-Valve guides while your at it
-ARP headstuds (affordable)
-Larger injectors (depending on how much hp u want to make) most people suggest 740cc/810cc (may or may not need a adjustable FPR)
-Assuming previous owner did it right, fuel pump should be upgraded to at least a 255lph pump
-Some type of metal head gasket. Alot of people run the Apexi
-Alot of s13 guys get the greddy intake manifold or the knock off and clean it up. (up to u)
-Some type of engine management (power fc is popular, AEM EMS, nisstune, emance or some other romtune like enthalpy or jimwolf)
-Adjustable CAM sprockets are not worth the $$$ use the OEM ones.
-Turbo manifold - lookup a user named CODYACE on this forum and ask him about his extrude honed OEM manifolds (alot will swear by it)
-Coilpacks (like splitfire) if you have extra cash, not needed (stock can handle 600hp)
-Obviously new upper gasket kit set
-port and polish (if you have the cash to get it done correctly)

-Most people run a Z32 MAF as well, since stock one doesn't work well with anything over 300hp. While your at it, get a Apexi Power suction intake, best filter out there.

IF you have the cash, I would build the bottom end up. New rods, pistons, bearings etc. You don't know the condition of that block after you blew your motor. This way you will know everything is new, the block can handle the added boost and you don't have to worry about if the motor will fail.

You can refer to this thread and see what people are running. http://zilvia.net/f/tech-talk/124925-gt2871-users-sr-motor.html Alot of people posted their dyno charts as well as their build. Its a start, you don't have to go with the 2871 but at least you will get an IDEA of what to expect and run.

[crossett]

Ok thanks eek.

The disco potato is a gt2860rs. I wouldnt go bigger then a gt30. If i change my mind on the potato witch is good for 350hp.

Ecu i really liked my power fc. And i know ill need fuel pump and injectors.

As for port and polished i was thinking about that but no idea what people charge.

As for the bottom end i have started it a few times since i blow head and it runs great just smokes really vad after a min or 2 of running. So i dont think the piston ring are bad or the smoke would be instant. I was hoping it was just the seals in the turbio but i dont know how to cheak that.

[jr_ss]

It's your head gasket... A compression or leak down test will confirm that.

[TheRealSy90]

Please just don't run rocker arm stoppers, they cause more harm then good. If you want to prevent the rocker arms from tossing run dual groove shims.

[crossett]

Forgot to add its a redtop s13 sr

[eek]

Ok thanks eek.

The disco potato is a gt2860rs. I wouldnt go bigger then a gt30. If i change my mind on the potato witch is good for 350hp.

Ecu i really liked my power fc. And i know ill need fuel pump and injectors.

As for port and polished i was thinking about that but no idea what people charge.

As for the bottom end i have started it a few times since i blow head and it runs great just smokes really vad after a min or 2 of running. So i dont think the piston ring are bad or the smoke would be instant. I was hoping it was just the seals in the turbio but i dont know how to cheak that.

If you want the best... Mazworx - Home of the World's Most Powerful SR20s. From engine work to chassis to even full turn-key racecars, we can do it. Even though we specialize in Drag Racing Nissans and the SR20, our capabilities are broad. (http://www.mazworx.com/) You can send your head there and have them re-work it.

They are not cheap by any means, but you get what you pay for.

[crossett]

I wanna do it myself to save some money i make over 100k but my house is more important. I just want to have pride in DIY and saying i built this

[eek]

Porting a SR20 head is by no means "EASY" if you want correct and improved flow. You mentioned you do not have any experience in building a motor. I'm not saying your dumb or incapable, but something like porting a cylinder head esp if this is your 1st time, I would not suggest it. Honestly you will prob do more harm than good by trying to do your own port/polish job. Send it out to the pros, have them do it. You can still assemble and put everything together yourself and still keep your pride.

[crossett]

Okay just got the okay from the wife to do more to the motor so i may go with the 272 cams but if i do what else do i need to do before i drive it and do they make pretuned ecus

[crossett]

Yes i planned on sending it out to be ported would you suggest geting bigger valves?

[AZ_BOY]

I see ur looking of getting 350HP out of your engine. I know some one got 350hp by getting a GT3071R on a 15psi stock sr. I know is a big turbo but i think is not gonna effect on a low psi.

[godsmack]

^ that's just not smart. even low boost that turbo is flowing too much volume of air for the stock injectors to keep up. But for the 272's get springs and I recommend going dual slotted shims as well. it's proven to work there's a write up on it somewhere in here. rocker stoppers will cause more harm than good if you do float a valve. it seems to me like you're on the right track though.

[eek]

If you already have a Apexi Power FC, you can run a base map to start the car. I wouldn't suggest driving it hard at all if you need to drive it to a tuner. My suggestion is if you can, just have it towed to the shop where the tuning will be done. Engine can be broken in on the dyno if you want, that's how I had all my cars done after building them.

Larger valves are not needed to hit your 350whp mark. It is really up to you if you want to spend the money on it. I've seen plenty of SR20 builds make 350 with stock valves. Once you pull the cylinder head off, check the valves, if they look shot, change em out to whatever you like. Personally I don't think its necessary to upgrade the valves esp spending more money to have the shop fit in the larger valves.

Also spend some time reading other people's builds. As the owner you NEED to decide where do you want your power to come in. Selecting the correct turbo as well as the correct sized cams and of course tuning is important. If you want quick spool time and don't want to deal with lag, get a smaller ball-bearing turbo like the gt2860. You want big numbers and can deal with more lag, go big and top mount the sucker. All up to you and your driving style.

IF you have extra money to spend, invest in suspension, if you don't already have a good setup and other important stuff like a new oil pump ($400 iirc), water pump, more gaskets, main bearings etc.. All that lil shit adds up fukin quick. All that basic maintenance stuff is not just crucial but a piece of mind. It would suck if you finished your build, tuned it and ur oil pump gives out the next time you drive it. I also suggest if you don't have proper cooling (good fmic, bigger oil pan, radiator setup ect), a good clutch and flywheel setup to handle the extra torque from your new build. Stuff like that people neglect and forget. What good is all that power if your clutch, suspension, brakes can't handle it? Anyhow you get the idea. Like many have said before in other build threads, take your initial budget and double it for all the "UN-EXPECTED" costs for parts and "STUFF" you will prob need as you get deeper into your project esp if you like quality parts and want stuff done correctly the first time around.

[crossett]

I have all the suspension done have 300zx brake upgrade. Also have good rad and intercooler from greddy.

I do want a quick spool thats why im going with the disco potato. Gt2860rs. m looking to be at 350 very reliable to where if some one pulls up next to me in say a Corvette being a dick i can make him look stupid. Lol in other words i want 350 on low boost but the ability to crank the boost up and bring more power out. So if i go with bigger valves would you do it evenly. Im thinking .5 larger both intake and exhaust.

Heres the new list.
272 cams, .5 larger valves, springs retainers, fuel pump, injectors, power fc, oil pan, studs new gasket kit ceramic head gasket, electronic boost controller think thats all for now

[TheRealSy90]

Don't even touch the head besides cams and valvetrain if you are aiming for 350-400, you are wasting money and making it more difficult on yourself.

If you are just absolutely against leaving it how it is and have to spend money on it some how, convert it to a sr20ve head and have way more flow and power with oem.

[crossett]

Well what would i have to do to go with bigger valves. What extra would i be needing

Im lookinhg to have up to aleast 500 but down tuned to 350

[crossett]

Shan farrar you pictures arent showing up

[2muchboost]

As noted def get the dual groove shims. I personally used Ferrea Dual Valve Spring kit and it was extremely good quality and well worth the money if your going for aggressive cams. I have also seen many posts about the GSC Beehive Spring and Retainer kit being some sick shit. There are a few very high hp supras running these and they are single spring but are designed differently then the average spring (hence the name).

If your shooting for 500 at most then just get a good valve job (3 or 5 angle) and get some mild porting done professionally. Oversized valves are probably overkill for your build but to each their own. No need for polishing on the SR head as it has been proven in many articles that the cost-->benefit (hp gain) ratio isnt typically worth it for 99.99% of the builds out there. A good port should do the job and free up some airflow.

Cosworth HG is a very good quality piece. I had Cometic and it held up well but never pushed it past 300 hp so I cant say it would be good quality at that point but others can chime in. ARP headstuds are a must. As far as cams also look at GSC S1 cams they have had much success on other car applications such as Evos and Supras so its worth a shot.

Last piece of advise, if your going to be pulling apart and putting things back together be extremely EXTREMELY meticulous about the parts that come off the car and how you keep things stored. Its easy to lose or misplace little things like shims and little bolts when your not cautious.

[hobbs]

350whp is about all you're going to get out of an internal gated t2 frame GT2860RS. T3 with an external gate you can see about 380whp with cams but not much more than that. For the power you're looking for is in the GT3076 range, small enough to spool yet big enough for 500whp. A T3 framed 20G would also get you pretty close to what you're looking for.


*cough*
http://zilvia.net/f/sale-items/466866-garrett-gt3076r-bnib-1000-00-shipped.html

[crossett]

Starting to get confused lol. So if i go with a t 28- t 30 400 tops with a decent spool time. What if a want 500 p what all will i need to do to this thing.

Im pretty stuck on brian crower they are really good and know Nissan.

[2muchboost]

Not knocking BC but if you do your homework the other parts I have mentioned are all top of the line parts.....at times better then the stuff that BC makes.

Just options.

[crossett]

Okay doing some more research how is ferrea and super tech

[TheRealSy90]

Aren't you set on Brian crower already.

[crossett]

I was but i dont wanna run into any problems and want the best performance also found that tomei cams are almost the same price for cams and tomei to me is one of the best.

[2muchboost]

Ferrea is incredible stuff, expensive but incredible. Lots of R&D and proven abuse has gone into their products. I was fortunate enough to buy the Sr20 kit when it was much cheaper then it is today. I would say that the kit is well worth the assurance that you have a quality part that will allow you to throw whatever abuse you throw at it. There was a build on the KA Turbo forums where the guy was redlining at 9200 rpm all day long and no issues even after absolute abuse to that poor motor.

[[email protected]]

save your $
just resurface head, no porting needed,keep stock valves and put in aftermarket springs with stock retainers and rocker stoppers if you plan to rev her out.

[green_pea]

Please just don't run rocker arm stoppers, they cause more harm then good. If you want to prevent the rocker arms from tossing run dual groove shims.

are you talking for an SR20? i have never heard of anyone doing this.

so you mean run 2 x guides instead of 1 x shim and 1 x guide?

http://www.mynismo.com/images_products/L_5835.jpg

[steve shadows]

save your $
just resurface head, no porting needed,keep stock valves and put in aftermarket springs with stock retainers and rocker stoppers if you plan to rev her out.

No porting needed but the last few dynos we did on basic SR20DET red top builds with a very clean polish and slight port with a 5 angle valve job netted an extra 25 whp...literally...so definitely worth it just don't go overboard with the porting. It's more about deshrouding the valve and polishing the ports on the Nissan heads in my experience. :yum:

[steve shadows]

are you talking for an SR20? i have never heard of anyone doing this.

so you mean run 2 x guides instead of 1 x shim and 1 x guide?

http://www.mynismo.com/images_products/L_5835.jpg

Yeah reshim the head too...essential...super essential...

[[email protected]]

Of course it helps there's no question there but for the goals at hand is it worth it. So again not saying it won't help but $ could be spent else where or saved.

No porting needed but the last few dynos we did on basic SR20DET red top builds with a very clean polish and slight port with a 5 angle valve job netted an extra 25 whp...literally...so definitely worth it just don't go overboard with the porting. It's more about deshrouding the valve and polishing the ports on the Nissan heads in my experience. :yum:

[crossett]

Okay if im running duel grove shims, how?

[waxball88]

If you spiked 2.5 bar id be surprised if you didnt burn some holes in your pistons

[crossett]

It runs fine just smokes

[[email protected]]

It runs fine just smokes

Most likely blew your rings

[crossett]

Okay i know its been awhile but i started pulling the motor apart before the damn rain hit( doing this out side for now). he exhaust side 4th cylinder rocker arm was broken. Cant find the shim or broken end. And to run duel grooved shims do i need to get the rocker arms cut.

[crossett]

Ok so i finished pulling the head off and no shim or rocker arm part. So im sure i bought it this way. Now i checked and the cylinder walls are clean and smooth but on piston 4 its a little dirty im thinking from the exhaust valve being unuse.

What do you guys think about Godspeed oil pan i know its cheaper but wondering if you get what you pay for.

[[email protected]]

did you do a comp test or a leakdown before you took it apart?
do you need the oil pan? if you dont theres no need

[crossett]

Ok i know i should have done a comp test but ididnt. This way if i start it up and it still smokes the wife has no choice but to let me do the bottom end plus the smoke is white not blue. So i know its the head gasket not rings.
I done need an oil pan but i gotta take it off so why not.

Also wanna know what you guys think about cx racings stuff or god speed for intake manifolds and kits and that type of stuff.
Im trying to cheap out on bolt ons now then upgrade as i go.

[[email protected]]

Ok i know i should have done a comp test but ididnt. This way if i start it up and it still smokes the wife has no choice but to let me do the bottom end plus the smoke is white not blue. So i know its the head gasket not rings.
I done need an oil pan but i gotta take it off so why not.

Also wanna know what you guys think about cx racings stuff or god speed for intake manifolds and kits and that type of stuff.
Im trying to cheap out on bolt ons now then upgrade as i go.

it isnt always a headgasket when its white ,
as far as the fake stuff i have a freddy intake manifold untouched and a godspeed FMIC on mine i made power with it but people will knock it

[jk26]

If your making more then 100k a year I say spend the extra $$ on quality parts...

[[email protected]]

If your making more then 100k a year I say spend the extra $$ on quality parts...

you dont need to make $100K to have a good qual. built car. and how many people make $100K + a year anyways.
other things come first before spending big on car parts. if you can swing it by all means go ahead

[jk26]

I totally agree read the first page he said that not me... So I was saying if I made 100k plus a year I would spend the extra... I was making 45k a year I just got layed off but I didn't spare expense on my build, and I still won't given the circumstances. Back on topic you can probably use te cx racing/Godspeed parts for your goals... Im shooting for 800+ so I didn't consider it an option.

[[email protected]]

I totally agree read the first page he said that not me... So I was saying if I made 100k plus a year I would spend the extra... I was making 45k a year I just got layed off but I didn't spare expense on my build, and I still won't given the circumstances. Back on topic you can probably use te cx racing/Godspeed parts for your goals... Im shooting for 800+ so I didn't consider it an option.

well just because its a CX part doesnt mean it wont work or do the job.
we are making 798whp with a CX water2air and has given consistant temps pull after pull. also my godspeed FMIC gave consistant readings as well with 30+ pulls on the dyno

[jk26]

To each his own, it's just a route I wouldn't take. I would also steer clear of BC stuff I haven't heard great things about there quality.

[[email protected]]

To each his own, it's just a route I wouldn't take. I would also steer clear of BC stuff I haven't heard great things about there quality.

yes again to each their own, i personally have BC on my car and it has taken the abused. the OP can only take our input and go the route they see fit.

[jk26]

Only bad I heard from BC is the cams snapping, this could also be due to improper install.. So I take back my last comment.. Moreover it's not a big feat to make 500whp on an sr, it's just personal preference on what kind of driveability you want..

[usdm180sx]

Ok i have a 93 240hatch with an s14 koiki front end conversion and i blow my head the other day. I was running an f350 and mu boost controller broke and boost jumped to 2 1/2 bars :/ motor is stock and i think it may have a turbo upgrade havent looked. So ill be building the topend but i have never done any internal motor work im a collision repair technician so im no car dummy and know i could do this but need some guidance. Im going to order new head gasket, studs, valves, cam shafts, springs and retainers. Im thinking ofgoing with apr studs and going with bc for everything else, maybe apexi for gasket.

If im missing anything pleaze let me know looking for 350 rwhp o and 264 cams is what im getting.
Any questions let me know. Thanks.

This might be obvious to some and it took me twice to learn it. If you have an sr swap the motor is at least 13 years old with who knows how many miles. The OEM bearings are weak and most likely on the way out. If you're going to boost up do yourself a favor and build the bottom end as well. Save yourself time and money. Don't ask me jow I know lol.

I just had my head built with all top end parts (Greddy IM, Tomei 740cc injectors, Tomei 260 procams, Greddy valve springs, Crower retainers, 5 angle valve job, ARP head studs, Greddy RAS, Apexi 1.1mm HG, HKS turbo manifold, HKS GT-RS turbo, HKS EVC boost controler and HKS Knock Amp for tuning. I used NGK BKR8EIX spark plugs. I had the BEST tuner street tune the motor on the HKS FCon VPro (Uses a MAP sensor) and timing, afr's and everything was good. Before the head was built I had a Tomei fuel pump and Blitz FMIC. Of course I drove it hard because the car was so much fun. My butt dyno estimate is at 350whp.

Here is a pic of my motor:
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c5/ncarpio1/D9F3FE95-22B9-4330-89F0-B05EA2EFE4C5-7397-000003C3B4786481.jpg

Well, after racing a 550whp r32 GT-R I spun a rod. (I kept up and actually pulled on him in 3rd =P) My mechanic checked the plugs, oil and coolant. He said that the tune was good and there was NO detonation. The motor blew because it was 18 years old and stock bearings SUCK, especially after who knows how many miles and adding another 150whp to the 200 it was already pushing. Jus sayin'

[crossett]

Makes sense but thats all you have with all that work is 350whp reading that you had i was thinking 450-500. Heres my thing im thinking of building the motor up bottom end and top and with 272 cams valves rods pistones cams etc but in order to do that i have to cheap out on the oil pan, intake mani, exhaust mani, intercooler and piping. Infect there is a kit with everything from cx thats why i asked. But with that being cheaped out on i can build stronger intrernals

And like one of my bosses said years ago with more money comes more bills. I have 2 car payments a wife im sending to college a daughter im paying for daycar and normol house bill. So 100k dont seem like a lot and goes quick.

[crossett]

O im also working on the body as i do this also im doing s14 conversation and also just finished the suspension

[porkchop911]

definitley let us know how the build gos thats exactly the power goal im tryna get. As for the s14 conversion in my opinion th s15 conversion looks so much better on a hatch I think the bodylines match up alot better. But again just my personal opinion and some may disagree.Another conversion if you have 5k+ to spend on the body is ODYVIA Thats an awsome looking conversion, But Good luck with the build and keep us posted.

[usdm180sx]

That's true but my goal is a well balanced, responsive and reliable street car that runs like stock except when you push it.

[801nismo104]

If i made 100k a year, i sure ass hell wouldn't be building a 240sx. I would be building a GTR or something a little more classy