Tomei 143041 possible alternative to JWT S3?

[noynek]

Need some thoughts here.

I know that the JWT S3 is the super popular choice for Mid range 300-375rwhp SR20det crowd.

As far as I know the S3 Cam was originally made for the NA FWD SR20de ( I hope I'm correct) but has become very popular for the RWD Turbo SR20DETt

I've discovered the tomei Tomei Poncam Type-N 143041, 260 dur, 11.2 lift , for oem valvetrain FWD Sr20de Non- RR.

It has very similar specifications to the JJWT S3 on paper except for the .1mm less lift

I know that Tomei makes the 256 SR20det RWD Poncam but shouldn't the Tomei 143041 for SR20de fwd NA be implemented in the sr20det RWD the same way the S3 did?

Do I need to be concerned about incompatible in/ex overlap issues

It can also be had for at least $120 cheaper and is from a quality cam manufacturer.


Thoughts welcome

[codyace]

The most important thing to note however is the difference in cams themselves, and how cams are not cams are not cams. While cams may share similar lift and duration, what they do not share is the LSA/centerline between them, nor do they often share the profile or ramp rate. In regard to Lobe Seperation angle and centerlines, the cam company can physically grind their cam 'off center' and introduce a few degrees of advance (valves open/close sooner) or retard (valves open/close later) into them. Get a cam with a ton of LSA retard into it, and you'll have a slouchy car down low (less cylinder pressure) but allow for safer big boost power...have a car with more advance and you'll have a snappy setup down load/midrange, but have much higher cylidner pressure uptop, causing a more detonation prone situation (although you need to also consider overlap in those circumstances too)

At the end of the day, Lift and Duration are nice things to consider/know, but the true thing is to know the grind of the cam. Just because a specific cam has a 'hot number' behind it, is only half the tale of the. Have a big lift/duration cam on a narrow LSA and with a lot of overlap, and you're going to really not have much top end as a smaller lift/duration cam with a wider LSA/less overlap etc etc. ( Think of having a broom and taking chunks out of it, and putting a keyway in it. Then take another broom and take the same chunks, but move the keyway a little bit. Same lift/duration, MUCH different situation.)

This sort of stuff is why an 'HKS 264' blows a BC 264 out of the water, and why a JWT S3 260 or Tomei 260 typically do better than those same cams on most setups too. In that same regard that's why a HKS 264 may work nicer with a larger turbo as it undoubtedly has less overlap and more LSA than the 260 JWT too (but then again, that's why JWT makes the S4, which works nice too)

In regard to the cost, that is on the end user. While I'm noted for being a JWT fannboy, there is a reason for that...and a reason why those JWT cars often make the best graphs and power. In the grand scheme of things, what's 100 bucks on something as crucial as the cams in the car. In that same regard, the Tomei cams are nice (a very good buddy of mine swears by his ProCams) and would easily be the second choice for me. The thing is, Pro Cams require springs...S3 and S4 do not...so while cam cost is expensive...total package is not. Not many places in this world can we say the cheaper option is the better option (well, maybe a few, but that's neither here nor there ;))


T.L;D.R (for Wayne and Obeewon :D) -- Cam math is voodoo stuff well beyond anything else out there, well beyond simple lift and duration numbers. Get the S3's :D

PS:
In regard to FWD/RWD, the thing to consider with cams is that neither are really 'designed for FWD or RWD' specifically. JWT S3 cams were initially designed/and are still super popular with the FWD cars as that's just what they had available at the time...not for any other reason. In that same regard there is no specific 'turbo' cam out there for the street based/mass consumer SR world.

[noynek]

Cody, I like the trend of thought. It's good to see that healthy discussion could be had dealing with things that can affect our cars technically. We can always expect that from you for sure.

I'm always looking for alternatives (not trying to reinvent the wheel). I believe it's good to raise ideas and get feedback from the more experienced.

I believe that JWT has great CAMS. I also believe in variety and looking for other sound options that work. Fact is that some people get into this game with a less than ideal budget and regardless of what others think may only have X amount of $$. Its nice to be aware of all the "efficient" options available for power upgrades.

Cody as you said
Quote
"This sort of stuff is why an 'HKS 264' blows a BC 264 out of the water, and why a JWT S3 260 or Tomei 260 typically do better than those same cams on most setups too. In that same regard that's why a HKS 264 may work nicer with a larger turbo as it undoubtedly has less overlap and more LSA than the 260 JWT too (but then again, that's why JWT makes the S4, which works nice too) "
End Quote

I fully support that statement.

That's why I'm curios to see where the Tomei 143041 (11.2lift 260 Duration) might fit in this melting pot.

If anyone has had first hand experience with these cams turboed it would be nice if you chime in.

[steve shadows]

The most important thing to note however is the difference in cams themselves, and how cams are not cams are not cams. While cams may share similar lift and duration, what they do not share is the LSA/centerline between them, nor do they often share the profile or ramp rate. In regard to Lobe Seperation angle and centerlines, the cam company can physically grind their cam 'off center' and introduce a few degrees of advance (valves open/close sooner) or retard (valves open/close later) into them. Get a cam with a ton of LSA retard into it, and you'll have a slouchy car down low (less cylinder pressure) but allow for safer big boost power...have a car with more advance and you'll have a snappy setup down load/midrange, but have much higher cylidner pressure uptop, causing a more detonation prone situation (although you need to also consider overlap in those circumstances too)

At the end of the day, Lift and Duration are nice things to consider/know, but the true thing is to know the grind of the cam. Just because a specific cam has a 'hot number' behind it, is only half the tale of the. Have a big lift/duration cam on a narrow LSA and with a lot of overlap, and you're going to really not have much top end as a smaller lift/duration cam with a wider LSA/less overlap etc etc. ( Think of having a broom and taking chunks out of it, and putting a keyway in it. Then take another broom and take the same chunks, but move the keyway a little bit. Same lift/duration, MUCH different situation.)

This sort of stuff is why an 'HKS 264' blows a BC 264 out of the water, and why a JWT S3 260 or Tomei 260 typically do better than those same cams on most setups too. In that same regard that's why a HKS 264 may work nicer with a larger turbo as it undoubtedly has less overlap and more LSA than the 260 JWT too (but then again, that's why JWT makes the S4, which works nice too)

In regard to the cost, that is on the end user. While I'm noted for being a JWT fannboy, there is a reason for that...and a reason why those JWT cars often make the best graphs and power. In the grand scheme of things, what's 100 bucks on something as crucial as the cams in the car. In that same regard, the Tomei cams are nice (a very good buddy of mine swears by his ProCams) and would easily be the second choice for me. The thing is, Pro Cams require springs...S3 and S4 do not...so while cam cost is expensive...total package is not. Not many places in this world can we say the cheaper option is the better option (well, maybe a few, but that's neither here nor there ;))


T.L;D.R (for Wayne and Obeewon :D) -- Cam math is voodoo stuff well beyond anything else out there, well beyond simple lift and duration numbers. Get the S3's :D

PS:
In regard to FWD/RWD, the thing to consider with cams is that neither are really 'designed for FWD or RWD' specifically. JWT S3 cams were initially designed/and are still super popular with the FWD cars as that's just what they had available at the time...not for any other reason. In that same regard there is no specific 'turbo' cam out there for the street based/mass consumer SR world.

Yes it is a form of black....magic or something but the HKS 264s paired with the right turbo have always been my favorite...has to be step 2...

The S3s are also great cams but it's more complicated than just cams...what cams?!?!? answer me dam*it!!!! but what cams + what turbo equals the end grin or happy place you're aiming for...

So I would ask what are you looking for? Just make sure you have a good idea...a lot of people end up with laggy setups that are slower but have a better peak number. I think the the best is somewhere in between.

Now if you were a baller you'd get both cams and try them both out.

There my still be an archived discussion on FA --- another Nissan Forum with a camshaft test by the same guy on the same car with almost every cam they made/make for the SR...

[derass]

I've been considering this too.

JWT S3 have the same part number for FWD, RWD, N/A and Turbo. This leads me to believe that there is no difference in cam profile design.

Tomei now has pn: 143040 260* 11.2mm Poncam for S13 SR20DE, I would assume this has the correct dowel pin for use in RWD.

This could turn out to be a very cost-effective alternative to the S3.

[codyace]

I've been considering this too.

JWT S3 have the same part number for FWD, RWD, N/A and Turbo. This leads me to believe that there is no difference in cam profile design.

Tomei now has pn: 143040 260* 11.2mm Poncam for S13 SR20DE, I would assume this has the correct dowel pin for use in RWD.

This could turn out to be a very cost-effective alternative to the S3.

256* vs 260*

Different lobe profiles

Cheaper? Sure. Better...nope.

S3 or S4. There is a reason the cars using those cams always make better power and nicer powerbands, and remain valvetrain safe to 7850rpm.

[TheRealSy90]

I would say go with the JWT's, but it's really up to you isn't it? And there is no "correct dowel pin for rwd", the shorter or longer pin works in either motors just fine. I've used oem and aftermarket fwd cams in rwd motors without swapping to the longer dowel.

Like cody said, JWT's are proven on stock valvetrain and make great reliable power. The best option we have IMO.

[Kingtal0n]

I just installed a set of S3 cams in a redtop a few days ago for a friends car.

Car still thinks its stock! silly car...

[EsChassisLove]

I'm switching from JWT S3s to Tomei Pro 260/260 12.0mm lift.

S3s cant handle my dual springs, so I have to say goodbye to them.

I cant compare powerbands though, as the JWTs were tuned on a 2871 to 7000rpm, and now I am on a GTX3076 that will hopefully be seeing 8500rpm.

Completely different animals.

[derass]

Its too bad no one has taken the chance, tried and reviewed the 260 Poncams, the specs on paper, and in theory, seem identical to S3's, both 260 duration with 11.2mm lift, both originally designed for NA SR20 and stock valvetrain. I'm not arguing that they would be better, but perhaps equal.

The fact that Tomei DET poncams have 256 duration and 11.5mm lift has got me wondering, is the trade off for increased duration/reduced lift truely beneficial for turbo applications?

[240knockout]

so does that mean your JWT S3s are now for sale?



I'm switching from JWT S3s to Tomei Pro 260/260 12.0mm lift.

S3s cant handle my dual springs, so I have to say goodbye to them.

I cant compare powerbands though, as the JWTs were tuned on a 2871 to 7000rpm, and now I am on a GTX3076 that will hopefully be seeing 8500rpm.

Completely different animals.

[Mikester]

The fact that Tomei DET poncams have 256 duration and 11.5mm lift has got me wondering, is the trade off for increased duration/reduced lift truely beneficial for turbo applications?

Sort of. I was actually shocked at first when I saw the RB26DETT Poncams only have like 8-9mm lift. Although more lift & more duration may seem like 'more' on paper; there are other factors that have extensive R & D behind them that come into play when optimizing the lift/duration & degreeing of cams for a particular setup. However, i won't even pretend to know the intricacies of what said factors are,.. But there are lots of threads and/or dudes here who do.

One thing to take into consideration is that the longer a valve stays open (duration), the more time the piston has to rise toward the open valve. The farther into the combustion chamber the valve travels (lift), the farther it has to travel back to avoid contacting the piston. For this, lift duration and timing need to be carefully balanced .

[EsChassisLove]

Yes they will be for sale soon lol.

[Mikester]

^^I got a buddy here running JWT S3's with a T28 on his S14... still spools like a madman & makes his car actually feel more powerful than it really is... If in the market for cams, it's a good buy.

[TheRealSy90]

I'm switching from JWT S3s to Tomei Pro 260/260 12.0mm lift.

Why not go to JWT S4's or C1/2's?

[EsChassisLove]

Because JWT swears that all their cams need to be used with THEIR valve springs only or else the lobes will be damaged.

Not into that shit when I have a $700 dual Tomei spring kit.

ESPECIALLY when JWT cams are nearly double the price of Tomei. I wanted C3s. But too much overlap for a turbo car.

[codyace]

I'm switching from JWT S3s to Tomei Pro 260/260 12.0mm lift.

S3s cant handle my dual springs, so I have to say goodbye to them.

I cant compare powerbands though, as the JWTs were tuned on a 2871 to 7000rpm, and now I am on a GTX3076 that will hopefully be seeing 8500rpm.

Completely different animals.

With a 30r and big RPM I think you're going to be upset if you don't get with a much larger duration cam than a 260*. I'd strongly suggest S4's or even C1's. No reason to sacrifice the top end just to have a cam for midrange...midrange that isn't going to really be there with that 30r.

Its too bad no one has taken the chance, tried and reviewed the 260 Poncams, the specs on paper, and in theory, seem identical to S3's, both 260 duration with 11.2mm lift, both originally designed for NA SR20 and stock valvetrain. I'm not arguing that they would be better, but perhaps equal.

The fact that Tomei DET poncams have 256 duration and 11.5mm lift has got me wondering, is the trade off for increased duration/reduced lift truely beneficial for turbo applications?

Plenty of people have run Tomei's, but the issue is the 'better' powerband cars always have JWT cams or the larger HKS/Tomei cams with the bigger turbos. Tomei makes a high quality product there is no doubt, and you can't go wrong with them, but the JWT offering is a better performing product. Albeit this comes at a cost.



Because JWT swears that all their cams need to be used with THEIR valve springs only or else the lobes will be damaged.

I think it's less that their springs need to be used, but more that you need the correct seat pressure to make it work. It's just like anything else with cars there can be 'too much' of anything. Too much seat pressure = hard on the valvetrain = performs less than ideal.



ESPECIALLY when JWT cams are nearly double the price of Tomei. I wanted C3s. But too much overlap for a turbo car.

Double is relative...you spend less running an S4 cam on stock springs, than buying Tomei cams and dual springs.

C3's are too much for sure.

[240knockout]

Yes they will be for sale soon lol.


I called dibs....

[EsChassisLove]

I was mulling over the 270 range Tomeis. :)