Does the president's religion matter to you? Why or why not?

[BustedS13]

I would like to see an agnostic president, personally, but I know I never will because religion, specifically Christianity, and certainly not any other, is valued so highly by the majority of this country. I'd like to see a president who never cites religion as reasoning for any decision they make. This country is not 100% Christian, and those who aren't should be respected equally, and have their rights respected equally.

So, why do you care that Obama is Muslim? he's not, but why does the suggestion bother you?

[Phlip]

I am a christian who happens to care not what religion ANYONE I come across happens to or not to fancy.
My pastor recently (well, 6 weeks ago) preached 3 sermons (two revival nights and one Sunday service) about how the book speaks to the fact that we should be loving one another and leaving the judgment to those whose job that happens to be.

In my mind, the words "American" and "Muslim/Jew/Atheist/Agnostic" are NOT mutually exclusive. Therefore, I would not be bothered at all with whatever any candidate happens to believe when they're not doing the job of being the figurehead pretending to be running the country.

[KiLLeR2001]

The book of revelation has some good tidbits of information about the antichrist and the false prophet.

[upsdude]

i dont care if he prays to allah or god personally. i just wish he'd do his job and try to find a way to help the economy

Sent from my Kindle Fire

[cdlong]

i dont care if he prays to allah or god personally. i just wish he'd do his job and try to find a way to help the economy.

I agree with the first part. I also completely agree with the second part. Though I think he'd do it better if he was agnostic or atheist (he could focus and make decisions based solely on the facts) but that others in politics would make it harder if he was.

[Chronicle]

So, why do you care that Obama is Muslim? he's not, but why does the suggestion bother you?

By the way, Obama is actually a Christian. Just saying.

[Matej]

He must pander to whoever the majority is. I am sure there were presidents not as devout as they had to appear.

[upsdude]

politics isnt about helping the people anymore anyways....its all about getting reelected. its not pandering its whitecollar prostitution lol

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[ESmorz]

I would prefer that the man with his finger on the button didn't believe in tales from the iron age.

I suppose that means I'm always going to be throwing away my vote.

He must pander to whoever the majority is. I am sure there were presidents not as devout as they had to appear.

Ah, to be a fly on the wall.

[Origin]

I didn't know you^ were the deciding force on the subject. Saying it is a tale. I didn't know you knew everything, you sound like a god to me.

I care if he's a fanatic and prays to allah, everyone knows how radical Islamists are.

He may not be Muslim, but he isn't a Christian. Only someone so narcissistic can be an Atheist.

I'd rather have someone in the White House that believes in more than themselves. I think we all would. The religion of Christianity is set-up so that the statement, "Follow in the path of the Lord, and you shall be lead to no evil" holds true in all situations.

[ESmorz]

I didn't know you^ were the deciding force on the subject. Saying it is a tale. I didn't know you knew everything, you sound like a god to me.

Throw some evidence on my plate and I will refer to it as anything you want. It stands that it is a tale that can only be confirmed when you die, that's why it's called faith, not fact.

[Origin]

That does not make it just "a tale". That's just your belief. Also, I didn't know the Bible (or Qur'an, or Tanakh), weren't eyewitness accounts.

[AsleepAltima]

i dont believe in god but i do think that following a religion has its place in teaching morals and being ethical to some degree. that said, i dont care what his religion is, as long as he doesnt let it affect his judgement and screw with our country and my paycheck.

[Origin]

Well, this isn't a thread about religion in general. It's about what Obama's religion and if people care.

[ESmorz]

That does not make it just "a tale". That's just your belief. Also, I didn't know the Bible (or Qur'an, or Tanakh), weren't eyewitness accounts.

How do you know that the inscriptions on Runes of Thor fighting Frost Giants and The Midgard Serpent weren't eyewitness accounts?

[roboticnissan]

Origin, youre making your self look dumb like all christians do. All of your pro christianity arguements can easily be turned around as anti christianity. We get it, you believe, good for you. And sad for you, cuz you have to follow a book just to be happy, or to simply live a decent life.

Fact of the matter is: theres a lot of different religions, none more factually proven to be true. Therefore for the sake of a civilization religion should play no factor in the decisions of our country.
who cares what religion obama is, as long as he can make decisions based on real life problems not on what a god would supposedly liked ti have done.

[AsleepAltima]

Therefore for the sake of a civilization religion should play no factor in the decisions of our country.
who cares what religion obama is, as long as he can make decisions based on real life problems not on what a god would supposedly liked ti have done.
this. pretty much all that needs to be said.

[Origin]

How do you know that the inscriptions on Runes of Thor fighting Frost Giants and The Midgard Serpent weren't eyewitness accounts?

I don't know, does it claim to?








Origin, youre making your self look dumb like all christians do. All of your pro christianity arguements can easily be turned around as anti christianity. We get it, you believe, good for you. And sad for you, cuz you have to follow a book just to be happy, or to simply live a decent life.

Fact of the matter is: theres a lot of different religions, none more factually proven to be true. Therefore for the sake of a civilization religion should play no factor in the decisions of our country.
who cares what religion obama is, as long as he can make decisions based on real life problems not on what a god would supposedly liked ti have done.

So turn them around. Tell me you know better than what actually happened 2000 years ago. Tell me you know better.

I marvel at your omniscience. I had no idea you know that I need a book to be happy. I didn't know it was the idea of selflessness, understanding. I had no idea it was not taking that extra step of spite and letting trivial matters go into the past. I think you need it, mainly to gain some wisdom. I also didn't know all Christians were dumb. For-Christianity views can not be turned into Anti-Christianity, only the words spoken (or typed) can be wrong, or misspoken (or mistyped). Please tell me where I'm anti-myownreligion. If I gave you proof, you would not accept it as such. If I gave you evidence of existence, you would not accept it as such. If I defend myself, you would not accept my defense as logical and justifiable; or reasonable. Why is it so hard to believe that if one would to follow God, that he will lead into no evil? Have you met a devout priest? A nun? A regular person? Someone who really follows it? If you asked them the last time they got themselves into some sort of selfish trouble, so violent or prideful trouble, it will be measured in years. Most points a religious man will make have merit. But they are ridiculed and cursed at into submission. Anyone one of them who stands up for themselves, the opponents use societal momentum and arrogant, childish, and thoughtless insults to win the argument, because otherwise their pride is hurt, and have to find some way to relieve that pain. "I don't believe in superstitious beings", is not proof of non-existence, nor is it a logical point to prove that. Likewise, absence of proof is not proof of absence. You believe in faith everyday. You don't know your beloved Nissan will still be there when you get up, you believe it will be, otherwise you wouldn't be so surprised if it was stolen. You believe this website will still be here, but you have to come here to find out. If I have to die to find out if it is real or not, why do I have to? I believe there is eternal life (the smart choice rather than nothingness (atheism)), just as I believe my car is outside tomorrow morning. Why is it so hard to believe? I know why, but you won't like it.

Still looking dumb?

[cdlong]

So turn them around. Tell me you know better than what actually happened 2000 years ago. Tell me you know better.

Burden of proof is on the one making the claim. If I were to claim a omniscient being made of spaghetti created the universe, it would be on me to provide evidence to that fact, not on you to prove me wrong.

[roboticnissan]

Yes dude you still look dumb.


Esmorz is picking apart every jesus envoked claim you make. He just doesnt sound smart only cuz he is using something childish like thor.

You like to stand there and be so bothered by someone else religion cuz you beleive so deeply that yours is true. But you have just as much proof as the next ridiculous religion.
And thats absolutely nothing. You choose to believe and thats fine, but cmon.

[theicecreamdan]

I'd rather have someone in the White House that believes in more than themselves. I think we all would.

I agree with that. But for my government, I'd prefer they believe in the PEOPLE.

For the guidance, I prefer they use something a little more modern than the Bible. Use the constitution as a guide for how to govern. The people can decide how to live their own lives by what ever holy books they choose.

[Origin]

Yes dude you still look dumb.


Esmorz is picking apart every jesus envoked claim you make. He just doesnt sound smart only cuz he is using something childish like thor.

You like to stand there and be so bothered by someone else religion cuz you beleive so deeply that yours is true. But you have just as much proof as the next ridiculous religion.
And thats absolutely nothing. You choose to believe and thats fine, but cmon.

I suppose talking to you intelligently is equal to talking with an owl.

[Origin]

Burden of proof is on the one making the claim. If I were to claim a omniscient being made of spaghetti created the universe, it would be on me to provide evidence to that fact, not on you to prove me wrong.

It's called the Bible, isn't it? Refer to my long post. I said the same phrase three times. This is busted's thread. I shouldn't have jacked it. To that I apologize.





I'd rather have a sane man not hungry with power in the white house. That does not me he has to not be religious.

[cdlong]

Your posts make my brain hurt, but I did scan it and you never accepted that you need to prove to us athiests that your god exists. Until then, the bible is ranked right next to Harry Potter.

[VNG704]

Your posts make my brain hurt, but I did scan it and you never accepted that you need to prove to us athiests that your god exists. Until then, the bible is ranked right next to Harry Potter.
You believe in science right? Science is only what can be proven, everything else, including a religion, is only something yet to be proven. One day maybe christianity can be proven. Like once witches were believed by the majority to be real, alive and active, we now know differently. But how can you ask some regular joe to show proof of their god? If you know about God then you know he can't prove that. Proof of something this big shouldn't be set on someone to prove. We know you don't expect any proof. Asking for proof is only something non believers use as a tool to win an arguement because they know it can't be given.

Back on topic, I think the president's religion should matter, because one is influenced by their religion. If he was a demon worshiper or something crazy like that, how do you think he'd run the country?

[gearhead55]

Still looking dumb?

Yea, pretty dumb. I can barely read what you wrote. The bible has been translated innumerable times through multiple languages from many different texts that were combined hundreds of years after they were written. Many texts from the era were purposefully left out of what we today consider to be the bible for a variety of reasons. If the bible is the word of god, don't you think it would have been written at one time, not over the course of hundreds of years? If the old testament was the word of god, why would there be a need to create the new testament? If god is omnipotent then shouldn't he have gotten it right the first time? It makes no more sense than Mormonism or Scientology, but Christians have no hesitation in denying those supposedly sacred texts.

Bible version debate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_version_debate)
Apocrypha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocrypha)

That does not make it just "a tale". That's just your belief. Also, I didn't know the Bible (or Qur'an, or Tanakh), weren't eyewitness accounts.

The Book of Mormon also claims to have first person accounts, but Christians deny the truth of that book, and that book is thousands of years more recent and hasn't been translated a bunch of times. Why not believe that is word of god? It claims to be just as the bible does.

All i ask is for religious people to hold all sacred texts to the same standard.

[cdlong]

If he was a good politician who follows the constitution, he'd run it the same way as a christian, his religious beliefs wouldn't affect his decision making process.

I do expect proof. If something actually happened, there should be evidence to that fact rather than boatloads of evidence to the contrary. I'm not looking for Origin to prove it personally but "something this big" should be easy to prove for the large population involved.

[EDacIouSX]

youre making your self look dumb like all christians do. All of your pro christianity arguements can easily be turned around as anti christianity. We get it, you believe, good for you. And sad for you, cuz you have to follow a book just to be happy, or to simply live a decent life.


You should learn how to respect other people and their own thoughts, that is a very uncool thing to say. So what if someone believes in a god? Just because YOU don't believe in a god does not give you the right to tell people who do are wrong.

I can equally say "you're making yourself look dumb." It's people like you who make me really hope that there really is a god in life.


Burden of proof is on the one making the claim. If I were to claim a omniscient being made of spaghetti created the universe, it would be on me to provide evidence to that fact, not on you to prove me wrong.
Sometimes there's tons of evidence and people still don't believe. I've had family members tell me they've seen ghosts and seen flying saucers. I believe them, majority of the world will not. There are countless other people who also make the same claims and yet people still don't believe the evidence.

You believe in science right? Science is only what can be proven, everything else, including a religion, is only something yet to be proven. One day maybe christianity can be proven. Like once witches were believed by the majority to be real, alive and active, we now know differently.

Do we really? There's a lot about ourselves, especially our minds, that we do not understand. We have only decoded such a small % of the human genome so how can you say for certain that we know and have 100% proven that witches never existed? I have certainly had dreams where I saw myself doing something in the future and later come true. They even have a word for it, Deja Vu.

Back on topic, I think the president's religion should matter, because one is influenced by their religion. If he was a demon worshiper or something crazy like that, how do you think he'd run the country?

Yup, AMEN. And besides, it's VERY VERY important because religion represents a person. It represents WHO they are so how can it not be important? That's like saying it's not important if a President is racist or perhaps interested in the same sex? It will influence what policies they make and how they interact with other people/cultures. Religion is very important as well as every other part of them that makes them who they are as an individual.

[theicecreamdan]

If he was a demon worshiper or something crazy like that, how do you think he'd run the country?

He'd probably open a portal to hell and appoint satan to the supreme court. Then the senate would block.

[Quail]

I've never understood why such a big deal was made out of Obama's religion. I guess religion plays a much larger part of every day life in a much larger proportion of people in the States. But even if he's not Christian, so what. There are many succesful world leaders that don't practice Christianity.

[VNG704]

If he was a good politician who follows the constitution, he'd run it the same way as a christian, his religious beliefs wouldn't affect his decision making process.



I think someone living a certain way for soo long will effect their decisions on a subconciousl level. Most people won't be able to help it.

[lockhaim]

I am an avid atheist even after going to Catholic schools for 13 years. Just because I don't believe doesn't make me any better. If someone else chooses to believe in god good for them, who am i to judge what they believe? It doesn't matter what you believe in you need to respect what other people's views whether or not you after with them or even like them.

On topic, I also agree that it shouldn't matter what religion the president is (so no I do not care) because there is supposedly "seperation of church and state" so as long as his religion isn't affecting his decision making and he's making unbiased decisions unaffected by his religion I don't care what he does.

[EDacIouSX]

I've never understood why such a big deal was made out of Obama's religion. I guess religion plays a much larger part of every day life in a much larger proportion of people in the States. But even if he's not Christian, so what. There are many succesful world leaders that don't practice Christianity.

Because of the things his minister? said at the church obama went to for 20 years. The racist stuff. Among other reasons, people speculate he is not really christian or whatever.

[Quail]

Because of the things his minister? said at the church obama went to for 20 years. The racist stuff.

If I was judged on the actions and words of every one of my acquaintances, I don't think it would be a particularly fair representation.

Jeremiah Wright should have known his words would hurt his, and more importantly Obama's reputation, no matter how true he felt they were. I don't think they were intended as they sounded.

[Origin]

He'd probably open a portal to hell and appoint satan to the supreme court. Then the senate would block.

Heh heh. That is funny.

[Origin]

I've never understood why such a big deal was made out of Obama's religion. I guess religion plays a much larger part of every day life in a much larger proportion of people in the States. But even if he's not Christian, so what. There are many succesful world leaders that don't practice Christianity.

I'm not so sure. It seems (based on our country's history) a Christian president (as this dominated for centuries here) always kept it on the right track. You don't become a (relatively) respectable superpower with great citizens (used to be), by being anything but really. Look at Iran's president, Islamist, causing controversy. Mao Ze Dong, Stalin, Hitler (apart from occultism), all Atheists. Look at the body count.

I never understood how people can say Atheism will set people free. I believe (on facts) that Atheists have a larger body count than anyone. If they had religion, they never, would have embarked on these journey's. And you can not disprove that, cdlong.

[Origin]

If I was judged on the actions and words of every one of my acquaintances, I don't think it would be a particularly fair representation.

Jeremiah Wright should have known his words would hurt his, and more importantly Obama's reputation, no matter how true he felt they were. I don't think they were intended as they sounded.

You don't attend a church for two decades if you don't believe what the reverend says.

[theicecreamdan]

Do you have to believe EVERYTHING he says?

[Origin]

Do you have to believe EVERYTHING he says?

What I'm saying is, he attended a church. Which means he either believed in something or faked it. If he believed in something, the reverend, or the religion, he saw the reverend as his "mentor". Not directly, but he got inspiration from him, otherwise, he would have left. If you can't come to terms with a certain aspect of what he's saying in a place of worship, you can't be there. It's not a choice, it's the way it is. If he didn't believe in what he was saying, he wouldn't have supported him. So yes, he has to.

[cdlong]

If you can't come to terms with a certain aspect of what he's saying in a place of worship, you can't be there. It's not a choice, it's the way it is.

So all this time that I've been going to church with my girlfriend has been against the rules? I wish I would have known I wasn't allowed in if I didn't believe what the preacher was saying.

[cdlong]

I'm not so sure. It seems (based on our country's history) a Christian president (as this dominated for centuries here) always kept it on the right track. You don't become a (relatively) respectable superpower with great citizens (used to be), by being anything but really. Look at Iran's president, Islamist, causing controversy. Mao Ze Dong, Stalin, Hitler (apart from occultism), all Atheists. Look at the body count.

I never understood how people can say Atheism will set people free. I believe (on facts) that Atheists have a larger body count than anyone. If they had religion, they never, would have embarked on these journey's. And you can not disprove that, cdlong.

Sure, cherry pick a few tyrants that are reported to be athiests (some of which also reported to be christian), but that's not the point of what you responded to. There are thousands of prominent leaders that aren't christian that are worthwhile leaders.

Everytime I hear crap like this, I think of this hilarious comic.
http://s3.amazonaws.com/theoatmeal-img/comics/atheism/1.png
http://s3.amazonaws.com/theoatmeal-img/comics/atheism/2.png

If your second statement was true, an absolute as you put it, then no religious person would have ever committed atrocities, which is untrue.

[Origin]

So all this time that I've been going to church with my girlfriend has been against the rules? I wish I would have known I wasn't allowed in if I didn't believe what the preacher was saying.

You play the prominent role of an atheist. I never said it was against rules. Now you are twisting facts to suit your theory. If you have nothing to bring to this thread but your carcass, keep out.

[VNG704]

The religion doesn't have to be christianity, just one that teaches the diff between good and evil. With good being the way to go.

[BustedS13]

The religion doesn't have to be christianity, just one that teaches the diff between good and evil. With good being the way to go.

so people cannot lead moral lives without religion?

[ineedone]

so people cannot lead moral lives without religion?

Clearly not! If you are not a religious person you are just a psychopathic serial murder, rapist, lunatic. I mean I can not stop either. If only I read the bible one more time, it probably would have stopped all this. Shucks.

[VNG704]

so people cannot lead moral lives without religion?

Serious? We're talking about the president's religion and how it does or doesn't matter which one he has, correct? What are you talking about? Didn't you start this thread?

[ineedone]

Pa. monsignor becomes 1st US Catholic official convicted for covering up abuse complaint (http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/struggling-jury-returns-to-work-in-philly-priest-abuse-case-had-been-hung-on-4-of-5-counts/2012/06/22/gJQA9tl3uV_story.html)

Religion = morality.

[VNG704]

Pa. monsignor becomes 1st US Catholic official convicted for covering up abuse complaint (http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/struggling-jury-returns-to-work-in-philly-priest-abuse-case-had-been-hung-on-4-of-5-counts/2012/06/22/gJQA9tl3uV_story.html)

Religion = morality.

Just because you're a catholic or any other person of religion does not mean you're free of immorality. Good one ineedone. :squint: No one said it was absolute that religion = morality. Try, hard, to not take the words out of context.

[ineedone]

Just because you're a catholic or any other person of religion does not mean you're free of immorality. Good one ineedone. :squint: No one said it was absolute that religion = morality. Try, hard, to not take the words out of context.

My point being that religion is just as dangerous as no religion. However, I would argue that you cannot necessarily separate the two (religion is, at it's core, a set of deeply held beliefs - so that can encapsulate just about anything). Morality is something that is determined by social norms, not by religion. In any case, being president requires one to be devoid of what most of us would consider "morality" because of the decisions that a president must make. I dare you to find a religion that says killing innocent, god fearing, humans is ever justifiable. You cannot. But, I would also dare you to take the stand that a president should never order military action because innocent people will die.

My point... it's all bullshit.

[Origin]

My point being that religion is just as dangerous as no religion. However, I would argue that you cannot necessarily separate the two (religion is, at it's core, a set of deeply held beliefs - so that can encapsulate just about anything). Morality is something that is determined by social norms, not by religion. In any case, being president requires one to be devoid of what most of us would consider "morality" because of the decisions that a president must make. I dare you to find a religion that says killing innocent, god fearing, humans is ever justifiable. You cannot. But, I would also dare you to take the stand that a president should never order military action because innocent people will die.

My point... it's all bullshit.

I read the first sentence and last sentence.

The point is this, a religious man (so long as it isn't proselytizing), will stop from committing those seven sins that are the basis for an immoral and potentially violent life. When provoked, a man that truly follows the religion, will not step over the line. Thus ensuring peace. Atheists, when provoked, will pounce. They are peaceful and caring (some) until the moment where they are backed into a corner and then do everything they can to eliminate the "threat" (I use the quotes heavily). They have no law because they have nothing to fear. This is true in all cases.

[mewantkouki]

The cake is a lie.

[cdlong]

Atheists, when provoked, will pounce...
...This is true in all cases.

All generalizations are false.

Seriously you love speaking in absolutes despite the fact that pretty much nothing is absolute.

[Origin]

Prove me wrong.

[Origin]

The cake is a lie.

The cake is a lie, is a lie.

[Highway Riding]

People will side with who they mostly align themselves with. I bet half the guys here would bash the current Potus if he had a riced out S13 with Vardogs and woowoo muffler gadget. See where i went. Loose analogy 100% but the point is justification and how justification is reached! BS sure but this will always be a problem because the way people demean each other especially in a country where we tolerate all religions and are growing faster than a boner a strip club.

[cdlong]

Prove me wrong.

I've been provoked and never pounced. Done.

Or if you would like something else, GW Bush is clearly more religious than Obama. GW Bush started two wars (disproving your assertion that religous people won't step over the line) where as Obama is working to end them.

[ineedone]

I read the first sentence and last sentence.

The point is this, a religious man (so long as it isn't proselytizing), will stop from committing those seven sins that are the basis for an immoral and potentially violent life. When provoked, a man that truly follows the religion, will not step over the line. Thus ensuring peace. Atheists, when provoked, will pounce. They are peaceful and caring (some) until the moment where they are backed into a corner and then do everything they can to eliminate the "threat" (I use the quotes heavily). They have no law because they have nothing to fear. This is true in all cases.

Uh... what? If I was going to follow your... ehm "logic?"... when what about the sins that require no provocation? Do only religious people no how not to pounce on a sin of sloth? Yeah...

As for Atheists what makes them so pre disposed to uncontrollable violent outbursts? It must be because they do not believe dinosaurs and men were around at the same time (only logical explanation).

You do realize that the law was not created from religion right? Like, stealing being illegal is not something some God wrote in the sand and everyone was all like... oh shoot, that makes sense. Religious "law" is something that was created to supplement/expand/retract natural law. Without getting into the history of it, religious law has often been on the wrong side of natural/moral law (slavery Ok in most religions, Women are property in most religions, you can kill your children for being brats in Christianity - I could go on, but really this should not be any thing new to anyone).

You know what I just realized... I just wasted a couple of minutes trying to make sense out of some random dribble from someone who is from the Phelps Westboro style of thinking. PS. the internet is of the devil, you should probably stay off it... god might hate you.

[Origin]

I've been provoked and never pounced. Done.

Or if you would like something else, GW Bush is clearly more religious than Obama. GW Bush started two wars (disproving your assertion that religous people won't step over the line) where as Obama is working to end them.

You are another who has a tough time comprehending. Please, try harder.

I said true followers. That should be about 6 percent of the total world if you really think about it. The point is it's low.

Please don't show your stupidity about the subject of Obama trying to get re-elected. You clearly haven't heard about his plans to move missions into Africa (where there is oil- Koni 2012? Uganda?), I'm sure he's really carrying for the soldiers. But as long as you get what you want, simple minded.

[ineedone]

You are another who has a tough time comprehending. Please, try harder.

I said true followers. That should be about 6 percent of the total world if you really think about it. The point is it's low.

Please don't show your stupidity about the subject of Obama trying to get re-elected. You clearly haven't heard about his plans to move missions into Africa (where there is oil- Koni 2012? Uganda?), I'm sure he's really carrying for the soldiers. But as long as you get what you want, simple minded.

What is a "true" follower. Because last time I checked, religion (every religion) is pretty ambiguous when it comes to the shit your suppose to believe, do, not do, etc.

[Origin]

Uh... what? If I was going to follow your... ehm "logic?"... when what about the sins that require no provocation? Do only religious people no how not to pounce on a sin of sloth? Yeah...

As for Atheists what makes them so pre disposed to uncontrollable violent outbursts? It must be because they do not believe dinosaurs and men were around at the same time (only logical explanation).

You do realize that the law was not created from religion right? Like, stealing being illegal is not something some God wrote in the sand and everyone was all like... oh shoot, that makes sense. Religious "law" is something that was created to supplement/expand/retract natural law. Without getting into the history of it, religious law has often been on the wrong side of natural/moral law (slavery Ok in most religions, Women are property in most religions, you can kill your children for being brats in Christianity - I could go on, but really this should not be any thing new to anyone).

You know what I just realized... I just wasted a couple of minutes trying to make sense out of some random dribble from someone who is from the Phelps Westboro style of thinking. PS. the internet is of the devil, you should probably stay off it... god might hate you.


I do laugh (well just a thought mid-sentence, I normally stop reading your posts about the second line in) at this ability for a pissed off adult boy to just senselessly insult the other person when he's not getting his way. (Wrath). I don't even know what your first sentence means. So now I'm just someone spewing some random dribble? So you think you are above me? Clearly you think you are above the Phelps style of thinking. (Pride). I didn't know you knew where law was created from. You seem to know a lot, are you omniscient? I don't even know what you are arguing about anymore.

[Origin]

What is a "true" follower. Because last time I checked, religion (every religion) is pretty ambiguous when it comes to the shit your suppose to believe, do, not do, etc.

I don't know, read the book. You can learn something, idiot. Well I do know, but why shouldn't you find out on your own? You know I was looking at your car a while back. I wish I was in a position to buy it. I hope it went to a good owner.

[ineedone]

I do laugh (well just a thought mid-sentence, I normally stop reading your posts about the second line in) at this ability for a pissed off adult boy to just senselessly insult the other person when he's not getting his way. (Wrath). I don't even know what your first sentence means. So now I'm just someone spewing some random dribble? So you think you are above me? Clearly you think you are above the Phelps style of thinking. (Pride). I didn't know you knew where law was created from. You seem to know a lot, are you omniscient? I don't even know what you are arguing about anymore.

I am God, this is the burning bush. I am here to tell you that the internets will end humanity and you MUST... MUST... end it. It has been proclaimed. Here on Ziliva. That YOU... ORIGIN... my most beloved son will say the digital beast (does not mean jerk off to porn). Go forth and may the force be with you - God, aka Jesus, aka zombie jesus, aka Raptor Jesus.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! < ---- ANNNNGGGERRRRR

[ineedone]

I don't know, read the book. You can learn something, idiot. Well I do know, but why shouldn't you find out on your own? You know I was looking at your car a while back. I wish I was in a position to buy it. I hope it went to a good owner.

Who decides what was true and what is not? Do you decide?

The car went to NY. Which is second in sin only to CA.

[BarrigaS14]

No, as long as the president doesn't try to make law based on religious views.

[kingkilburn]

I haven't read the thread yet(I'm working on it) but I wanted to say first that I don't care about any person's personal life. As long as they do their job and nothing in their private life compromises that it shouldn't matter and is none of anyone's business.

[Siberian Husky]

I do laugh (well just a thought mid-sentence, I normally stop reading your posts about the second line in) at this ability for a pissed off adult boy to just senselessly insult the other person when he's not getting his way. (Wrath). I don't even know what your first sentence means. So now I'm just someone spewing some random dribble? So you think you are above me? Clearly you think you are above the Phelps style of thinking. (Pride). I didn't know you knew where law was created from. You seem to know a lot, are you omniscient? I don't even know what you are arguing about anymore.

I stumbled upon Loud Noises for the first time since I've joined Zilvia year ago and after flipping through a few threads I can't seem to understand why you, Origin, are so dead set on peddling your ass-backwards, mediocre, "beliefs." I'm very much embarrassed for you, almost everything you've tried addressing has come off entirely unprepared and, in most cases, emotionally charged with hardly any ounce of political substance. Before I go on; please don't misinterpret this posting as my disagreeing with your perspectives, because I'm more concerned with pointing out your poor debate process rather than your premature idealisms of "grandeur" reflected by your hate for Obama or your unconditional loyalty to republican gestures and what you feel exists as traditional "Americanism."

I have my beliefs as everyone else, and I enjoy debate as I believe it provides us with catalysts for learning new perspectives. Your thought process, however, is so diseased--its fucking irritating and makes me lose hope in my generation. I don't mind disagreeing with someone but it is poor form to dismiss a notion as trash simply because it doesn't satisfy the fabric of your belief system. When someone presents you with opposing evidence or opinions, please address them objectively rather than dismissing them as utter shit and providing elementary construed blanket statements as if they were factual. If you've spent any time learning about the world you live in, and know anything about knowledge itself, you would understand the importance of relativism--making you less inspired to feel so axiomatic in your beliefs. If you and I were ever involved in a serious debate, I know I would tear you a new asshole, not because of how much I think i know, but because of how sure you are of yourself. Some of the best and brightest men humanity has ever known died in old age admitting ignorance--how many truisms can your 20-something year old ass know? A little hubris goes a long way in finding truth.

On the discussion of religious integrity, with respect to statesmen, I agree with the importance of neutrality. Separation of church and state is fundamental to this nation's manifestation; in fact, it was America that served as the largest harbor for religious refugees from Europe during the colonization of the East. For a country that has always stood for freedom, providing refuge and opportunity for people of varying classes and backgrounds, I personally feel it is imperative to have a figure-head that promotes this separation, regardless of his/her beliefs. I find it archaic that many prospective statesmen blatantly reference religion (Christianity) as concrete factors that define policy. I would not care if President Obama were Muslim, Catholic, or anything else; I would be more proud as a citizen if my state and country reflected the diversity we exhibit.

Edit: For your edification, I am a believer in Christ. I also find beliefs and imagery from other religions moving (problem?) ; I have tentatively decided that my religious fabric is motivated by morality, and would arguably define my system as both spiritually agnostic with monotheistic Christian undertones and humanistic.

[Slims]

What happened to separation of church and state? oh wait its 2012, no one in government plays by the rules.

[terrence]

What happened to separation of church and state? oh wait its 2012, no one in government plays by the rules.

There is no document that actually says "there is a separation between church and state" in the US constitution or any other legal document. It was only in a letter written by Thomas Jefferson, he viewed that their should be a separation between the church and state. This letter has been brought up in supreme court a few times, but again; it is not in the Constitution.

On that note, anyone who claims they are religious I automatically assume they are less intelligent. I am embarrassed that we still live in a world that clings to barbaric ideas and traditions blindly on ignorance. It would not surprise me if some politicians actually claim a certain faith to gain voters (worked for W. Bush). So to the topic of the OP, it makes a difference that the person running for office actually claims a religious affiliation; regardless of the context of their superstitions.

[Corbic]

I would like to see an agnostic president, personally, but I know I never will because religion, specifically Christianity, and certainly not any other, is valued so highly by the majority of this country. I'd like to see a president who never cites religion as reasoning for any decision they make. This country is not 100% Christian, and those who aren't should be respected equally, and have their rights respected equally.

So, why do you care that Obama is Muslim? he's not, but why does the suggestion bother you?

First what "non-christian" has been the victim of having their "rights" violated?

Second - fuck you and your respect. (no offense, being dramatic). There is nothing legally that one person has to appreciate and value another views, support them, embrace them or give two flying fucks. It's called tollerate. You tollerate that idiot dressing up as a Jedi in his living room and worshiping Yoda... you don't have to like him.

Additionally, if you are supporting the idea that Obama is Muslim, then you have two non-Christians running. Mormons are no more Christian than Muslims, (thats not an insult).

Lastly, people care what religion their leader are because of obvious reasons. Not only is there the fear or hope that this leader will show favoritism to their fellow brethren but also its a good basis to understand what they value and where they want to take us.

Obviously if you support gay mariage and what to see polygamy legalized a devote Evangelical leader may not have a sympathetic ear to your cause. Just like if you are looking to knock off all the bullshit from cry babies unable to understand the meaning "Separation of Church and State", electing an atheist may not be your best bet.

[Corbic]

There is no document that actually says "there is a separation between church and state" in the US constitution or any other legal document. It was only in a letter written by Thomas Jefferson, he viewed that their should be a separation between the church and state. This letter has been brought up in supreme court a few times, but again; it is not in the Constitution.


Correct. The basic concept is not that the Government will refuse to recognize religion, God, prayer or spirituality, but rather that they Government will not create and define and mandated religion with taxation for that religion. IE: The Church of England.

You have to remember we are basically the decedents of the British Empire and the primary reason the colonists came to America was because they where religious fanatics who wanted to practice their own bizarre, out there near jihadist style religions.

Quakers, Puritans, ect. Remember the Puritans over threw the monarchy and eventually got chased over to Holland. Once their the Dutch grew weary of their fanaticism and soon the new world was their only hope.


ANYWAY... the my point is people crying about "in god we trust" as being a violation of their "rights" are just idiots. Give me a call when Congress passes a law mandating we must all convert to Scientology and give 3% of our income to the church... something many European and Middle Eastern countries require.

[1 88 U]

Mormons are no more Christian than Muslims, (thats not an insult).


What makes the people of the Church of Jesus Christ and Ladder Day Saints no more Christian than Muslims?

[Corbic]

What makes the people of the Church of Jesus Christ and Ladder Day Saints no more Christian than Muslims?

Because they have added onto the New Testament their own version. Its a very fundamentally different religion. Just like Christians (Protestants and Catholics) are not Jews or Muslims (who believe in Jesus as a prophet) are not Christians.

Its obviously a slippery slope argument and if you google it, it is one that has gone on for a long time and won't be decided in this thread.

Regardless 50 years ago America freaked this shit out over the thought of a Catholic being president.

The OP is also making a stink about "Christian" American "requiring" a "Protestant" leader, by the mere fact the Romulon is in the running would be a reason to beg to differ.

What I think people what is not necessarily "omfg he's not a Baptist", but they want a man of values and humble devotion. Its good to know your leader does pray to a higher power, he does feel his actions are being judged by more than what the Washington post catches him doing or what the polls say, and its a strong character test.

[Corbic]

this. pretty much all that needs to be said.

Yes, because Atheist governments seem to be the best...

Mao's China
Stalin's Russia
Castro's Cuba


Works out great for the citizenry.

"...the belief that the rights of man come not from the generosity of the state, but from the hand of God."

If you are relying strictly on science and logic, then "might makes right" every time.

[StryfeS13]

How do you know that the inscriptions on Runes of Thor fighting Frost Giants and The Midgard Serpent weren't eyewitness accounts?

Hahaha! Man that was funny. :D

Seriously though I don't care what religion the president is as long as his/her choices are not influenced by it.

[1 88 U]

Because they have added onto the New Testament their own version. Its a very fundamentally different religion. Just like Christians (Protestants and Catholics) are not Jews or Muslims (who believe in Jesus as a prophet) are not Christians.

Its obviously a slippery slope argument and if you google it, it is one that has gone on for a long time and won't be decided in this thread.

Regardless 50 years ago America freaked this shit out over the thought of a Catholic being president.

The OP is also making a stink about "Christian" American "requiring" a "Protestant" leader, by the mere fact the Romulon is in the running would be a reason to beg to differ.

What I think people what is not necessarily "omfg he's not a Baptist", but they want a man of values and humble devotion. Its good to know your leader does pray to a higher power, he does feel his actions are being judged by more than what the Washington post catches him doing or what the polls say, and its a strong character test.

The difference is Christians don't identify themselves as Jewish but Mormons do identify themselves as Christian. Who are you to determine who gets to identify with what faith?

[Corbic]

The difference is Christians don't identify themselves as Jewish but Mormons do identify themselves as Christian. Who are you to determine who gets to identify with what faith?

I bet that sounded more intelligent in your head.

[1 88 U]

I bet that sounded more intelligent in your head.

So do you agree that the Mormon faith is a Christian faith?

[AsleepAltima]

Yes, because Atheist governments seem to be the best...

Mao's China
Stalin's Russia
Castro's Cuba


Works out great for the citizenry.



If you are relying strictly on science and logic, then "might makes right" every time.
damn you for making me go back and read what it was i was referring to. LOL

anyways, this is what i was actually agreeing to -
who cares what religion obama is, as long as he can make decisions based on real life problems not on what a god would supposedly liked ti have done.

[Corbic]

So do you agree that the Mormon faith is a Christian faith?

Nope.


Ever here of marketing?


Does Scientology have anything to do with science?

[Slims]

Seriously though I don't care what religion the president is as long as his/her choices are not influenced by it.

That's the main thing. the only thing I'm concerned about is how the persons religious affiliation will have an affect on their decisions. religion is a powerful thing for a lot of people, and some would go so far to kill their self in the name of their religion and god. knowing just how devoted someone is to their religion is not something you're going to be able to absorb just from watching them on TV (unless they're Tebo!) I dont care what religion anyone is, just as long as it does not interfere with making a logical, UN-influanced, decision that needs to be made for this country.

[1 88 U]

Nope.


Ever here of marketing?


Does Scientology have anything to do with science?

Mormons say they are Christian yet you choose to disqualify them and accuse them of marketing as if that isn't what all evangelism is? You are a religious bigot as well dude. You need to do some soul searching.

[Corbic]

Mormons say they are Christian yet you choose to disqualify them and accuse them of marketing as if that isn't what all evangelism is? You are a religious bigot as well dude. You need to do some soul searching.

I bet that sounded cooler in your head...

[Phlip]

Its good to know your leader does pray to a higher power, he does feel his actions are being judged by more than what the Washington post catches him doing or what the polls say, and its a strong character test.

And THAT is why the whole cuckolding themselves to a specific set of religious belief leads me to believe that literally EVERYONE to run for President is full of shit.
Sure, they would have everyone to believe they're faithful and have the best collective interests of the American people but the truth is that they - ALL of them on both sides of the aisle - are run by the SPONSORS of America who are pretty much buying this election with their contributions.

And that is why I say the President's religion doesn't matter, especially when so few of their actions actually take any root in those actions.
f'rinstance, the New Testament is full of stories of Jesus feeding the hungry and healing the sick. If this country were truly being run on those ideals alone, then we would not have a whole political ideology committed to telling them to "get it together" and waiting on the rich people to give them jobs when the government gets out of THEIR way.

[Corbic]

The New Testament is full of stories of Jesus feeding the hungry and healing the sick. If this country were truly being run on those ideals alone, then we would not have a whole political ideology committed to telling them to "get it together" and waiting on the rich people to give them jobs when the government gets out of THEIR way.

No one in American goes hungry except because abuse/neglect or mental illness.

Also, what about the whole "teach a man to fish".

The Bible is full of lessons and stories, many of them are telling you God helps those who help themselves.

[Corbic]

And THAT is why the whole cuckolding themselves to a specific set of religious belief leads me to believe that literally EVERYONE to run for President is full of shit.


I disagree. True you have spend a lifetime working toward becoming President. You have to want it more than anything else and make all the right political moves to even get a chance.

You talk about sponsors but if anyone wealthy enough ran on their own dime the openers would be howling about what a filthy rich fucker they are and how they are not "from the people".

Having read Bush's book, knowing people that know him and even my father has met him... I can confidently say I believe he is in fact a believer.

[Trinidrift3]

A President's religion makes difference on my view of them or whether i woudl vote for them. I want someone who truly wants to make a change for the better in world, and do whatever they can to help the people of our country.

[1 88 U]

Having read Bush's book, knowing people that know him and even my father has met him... I can confidently say I believe he is in fact a believer.

And yet his faith didn't stop him from being a shit president.

[usdm180sx]

laksjdhfgfhdjdskaslqpwoeireuryt

[Corbic]

And yet his faith didn't stop him from being a shit president.

Oh? Well debate that in 40 years when people can look at the long term impacts and think with some dissipation.

[word sux]

separation of church and state so who cares what religion the president is



but considering christians are the majority of this nation then I highly doubt we will see a non christian president in our lifetime. Considering the three major ethnic groups (caucasian, hispanic, and african) are mostly christian I can't see it ever happening to be honest.. If there were to be it would most likely be a jewish president.

[Corbic]

separation of church and state so who cares what religion the president is



but considering christians are the majority of this nation then I highly doubt we will see a non christian president in our lifetime. Considering the three major ethnic groups (caucasian, hispanic, and african) are mostly christian I can't see it ever happening to be honest.. If there were to be it would most likely be a jewish president.


Please read the whole thread.

[1jzjoey]

Religion is stupid, the bible is a fairy tale only the people who arent complete morons know this. All relegion is good for is wars. The only time i will vote for a president is when he's an athiest and we all know thats never going to happen.

[Corbic]

Religion is stupid, the bible is a fairy tale only the people who arent complete morons know this. All relegion is good for is wars. The only time i will vote for a president is when he's an athiest and we all know thats never going to happen.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-YQiOnnJ5h_o/TZ9vveJd8vI/AAAAAAAABMk/yymv5oocopo/s1600/debs_poster.jpg

[1 88 U]

Religion is stupid, the bible is a fairy tale only the people who arent complete morons know this. All relegion is good for is wars. The only time i will vote for a president is when he's an athiest and we all know thats never going to happen.

Yeah, and intolerance. I'd never vote for an intolerant president that doesn't agree with my views exactly. Sarcasm. You are the one in a fairytale if you are willing to dismiss people simply on the basis of faith.

Tribalism, greed, and intolerance predate religion for causes of war. If you believe that atheism would magically solve that then you are no better than religious fanatics that ignore science and history.

[1jzjoey]

Yeah, and intolerance. I'd never vote for an intolerant president that doesn't agree with my views exactly. Sarcasm. You are the one in a fairytale if you are willing to dismiss people simply on the basis of faith.

Tribalism, greed, and intolerance predate religion for causes of war. If you believe that atheism would magically solve that then you are no better than religious fanatics that ignore science and history.

If there was an athiest president shit would get done. religion and govt should never be mixed.

not saying that but religion is pretty much responsible for most wars and violence. Like the fighting in Jerusalem It's a fight over whether non-Arab or non-Muslims have a right to a secular democracy with them as majority in any part of the Middle East. No religion, No problem.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-YQiOnnJ5h_o/TZ9vveJd8vI/AAAAAAAABMk/yymv5oocopo/s1600/debs_poster.jpg

http://teacheru.us/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/obama-socialist.jpg

[usdm180sx]

Just kill the fucking illuminati and give the money to the middle class and poor. The country will be okay

[Corbic]

If there was an athiest president shit would get done. religion and govt should never be mixed.


I totally agree... shit would get done.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_69Ty55H-fE8/THLoK8DGaeI/AAAAAAAAAG8/6-GL6dYCFXs/s1600/ShanghaiMassacre1927.jpg

http://aviewfromtheright.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/katyn_wood_massacre.jpg

http://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx241/phamnguyen_hn/Bachuc/Bachuc02.jpg

http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/mass-grave.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/12/02/article-0-0065F19800000258-260_468x305.jpg


Atheism sounds great until you put it into practice. That whole "survival of the fittest", "might makes right" and "for the greater cause" logic isn't so awesome when you are not the winning side.

I'll pass on having Stalin or Mao for president - I'd much rather have Washington or Lincoln. (both very devote religious men).

[1 88 U]

Stalin and Mao used state worship to replace religion to control the masses. It has nothing to do with Atheism and everything to do with power and oppression. I could sit here and bring up an incredibly long list of leaders that where Christian and committed atrocities.

[The Dude]

Atheism sounds great until you put it into practice. That whole "survival of the fittest", "might makes right" and "for the greater cause" logic isn't so awesome when you are not the winning side.

I'll pass on having Stalin or Mao for president - I'd much rather have Washington or Lincoln. (both very devote religious men).

Funny, because that's some of the same logic Christians use to "protect the sanctity of marriage," amongst other ideals.

[terrence]

I totally agree... shit would get done.

[images of hypocrisy ]


Atheism sounds great until you put it into practice. That whole "survival of the fittest", "might makes right" and "for the greater cause" logic isn't so awesome when you are not the winning side.

I'll pass on having Stalin or Mao for president - I'd much rather have Washington or Lincoln. (both very devote religious men).

HAhaha when the fuck did the lack of believing in a deity mean that someone in power will commit genocide and atrocities? I think the body count for religious leaders is quite surpassed that of non-believers. Just because someone does or doesn't believe in a deity doesn't automatically make them an asshole, it just so happens most leaders are asshole's regardless of their status on religion.

I would love to see a president that sides with neither believers or non believers. Because honestly, if it were not for religion there would not have to be non-believers. I just want a rational and logical president with a respect and understanding of scientific literacy. Not one that thinks evolution is a fairy tale made up by scientists to bring down the jesus.

[Matej]

Atheism sounds great until you put it into practice.
How does one put atheism into practice? :)

Atheism is nothing. Atheism is the lack of religion. 99% of atheists are not the angry type trying to stop kids from reciting the Pledge of Allegiance (ironically, making kids recite a pledge to a nation is about the most communist thing I have encountered, and that is coming from someone who lived in an ex-soviet country) that America portrays them as, but rather wish that everyone would just stop bothering them with such nonsense as religion and let them focus on real-life problems.

If anything, religion is a dictatorship, and the worst kind there is.

[Corbic]

HAhaha when the fuck did the lack of believing in a deity mean that someone in power will commit genocide and atrocities?

Got any proof to counter that? All I know is that all the Governments in the world that have ever rejected religion as an institution and officially embraced atheistic views are the perpetrators of the greatest human tragedies in the history of humanity.

All your bitching about 11th Century Crusades and gay marriage can't even begin to scratch the surface.

Actually in a world devoid of religion mariage would not exist, it's illogical. So the argument about gay marriage is idiotic.

[Corbic]

How does one put atheism into practice? :)


Pretty easily.

1. Embrace Science as the only basis of logic, morals and ethics. Natural Selection, Survival and Advancement is all that maters.

2. Security, Rights and Protections come directly from the Government and are guarantied only as far as the Government allows.

3. If it makes logical sense - it is the most moral choice.

So, would you advocate rounding up all the people with Aids in the world and then euthanizing them? No no more infected people the diese will be eradicated - generation after generation will know a life free of this blight. It is the most logical thing you can do...

[terrence]

Got any proof to counter that? All I know is that all the Governments in the world that have ever rejected religion as an institution and officially embraced atheistic views are the perpetrators of the greatest human tragedies in the history of humanity.

All your bitching about 11th Century Crusades and gay marriage can't even begin to scratch the surface.

Actually in a world devoid of religion mariage would not exist, it's illogical. So the argument about gay marriage is idiotic.

Wow, ok; I am an atheist, I do not commit genocide.

What is atheistic values? All atheism is, is the lack of belief in a deity.

Religion has hindered humanity since its conception, violence is just one of many atrocities brought on by the blind faith of religious followers. Rejection of science facts, execution and prosecution of non-believers, people who speak against the church, believe in other religions or don't fall within their own moral construct all suffer from religion.

Marriage is nothing more than a line on a tax form and the customs of traditional marriage differ from culture to culture. I'm not gay, nor am I a christian so I could care less on the matter of gay marriage.


Pretty easily.

1. Embrace Science as the only basis of logic, morals and ethics. Natural Selection, Survival and Advancement is all that maters.

2. Security, Rights and Protections come directly from the Government and are guarantied only as far as the Government allows.

3. If it makes logical sense - it is the most moral choice.

So, would you advocate rounding up all the people with Aids in the world and then euthanizing them? No no more infected people the diese will be eradicated - generation after generation will know a life free of this blight. It is the most logical thing you can do...

Ok, science is not a religion or a way of life. It is the method to which you test explanations and predictions based on observations of our universe. It is based on reason and logic. It has NOTHING to do with morals or ethics. It is just a system to build an understanding of our surroundings. Morals and ethics are and should be formed through society and common vote; or as you may prefer intelligent design.

I hate religion. I think it is a terrible way to comfort the weak and ignorant. But, I would never prohibit or prevent someone from doing or believing whatever they want as long as it does not interfere with my life. An atheistic president should do the same, obviously I cannot speak for everyone; but you make it out to be that everyone who denies there is a deity will be a genocidal maniac if put in a position of power.

All of the examples of atheist leaders you gave came from a suppressive nation that had no say in their leaders in power. Most leaders that come from countries with absolute control over the country tend to lean towards crazy regardless of beliefs.

[The Dude]

Actually in a world devoid of religion mariage would not exist, it's illogical. So the argument about gay marriage is idiotic.

You're right! Therefore it, and the legal benefits that go along with it, couldn't be denied to people based on someone else's religion. Glad you understand!

[Corbic]

Morals and ethics are and should be formed through society and common vote

So... if we all vote to keep women locked up at home and wear burkas, that's cool?

So... if we all vote to eliminate "x" ethnic group...

[Corbic]

You're right! Therefore it, and the legal benefits that go along with it, couldn't be denied to people based on someone else's religion. Glad you understand!


You mean the benefit of losing half of everything you own and incurring massive debt when you split up?

Why would you tolerate homosexuality in a "science" based world... it goes against the species survival.

[Corbic]

An atheistic president should do the same, obviously I cannot speak for everyone; but you make it out to be that everyone who denies there is a deity will be a genocidal maniac if put in a position of power.


Find me an example to the contrary. If there is not religion... then there is no higher power or authority then the Government, thus whatever they do... is right.

No?

Why would you want a leader that believes the only reason you "can't" do something is because there may be a law?

[terrence]

So... if we all vote to keep women locked up at home and wear burkas, that's cool?

So... if we all vote to eliminate "x" ethnic group...

You just gave 2 examples of social confinements that originate from religious beliefs. Again, ethics and morals should be created through logic and rational discussion. Like how it's illegal to own slaves, women have equal rights, segregation is illegal, you can worship whatever crazy shit you want, ect.. I don't know where you are getting this assumption that ALL atheists are 3rd world dictators. It is quite the contrary to my experience.

You mean the benefit of losing half of everything you own and incurring massive debt when you split up?

Why would you tolerate homosexuality in a "science" based world... it goes against the species survival.

Where did you get this idea of what "science" is? It is not a religion or some doctrine to rule over a society. I really get the feeling that you are misinformed on your ideals.

Find me an example to the contrary. If there is not religion... then there is no higher power or authority then the Government, thus whatever they do... is right.

No?

Why would you want a leader that believes the only reason you "can't" do something is because there may be a law?

Religion as is government was created by people. So it is up to the people to decide is right or wrong.

I don't want a leader that "believes". I want a leader that can make decisions through logic and reason, and not based off of some shit made up during the bronze age.

[JimCrom]

Find me an example to the contrary. If there is not religion... then there is no higher power or authority then the Government, thus whatever they do... is right.

No?

Why would you want a leader that believes the only reason you "can't" do something is because there may be a law?

The government of western civilizations - Britain, France, the U.S.A - have been founded exclusively on the idea that the leader cannot do something because there is a law.

In England there have been multiple times - Magna Carta, the Glorious Revolution of 1688 - the people have come together to check the power of their leader by subjecting his actions to the rule of law.

The tradition we inherited from England subjected our executive and our legislature to the rule of law.

The French used our example to subject their king and their legislature to the rule of law.

We form governments to escape the state of nature. Then we subject the positions of power in those governments to the rule of law. In that bargain we also give up some of our "liberties" we enjoyed while in the state of nature. Its the social contract. We agree to be governed, and when the governors get out of line we rework/remake that agreement. Hence why the atrocities committed by Mao and Stalin did not continue on indefinitely.

[The Dude]

You mean the benefit of losing half of everything you own and incurring massive debt when you split up?

Why would you tolerate homosexuality in a "science" based world... it goes against the species survival.

Obviously that is an oversimplification. Not sure why you believe an atheist president would abolish all Christian traditions/customs (not that marriage is exclusive to Christianity).

Sorry to break this to you, but homosexuality has been documented in over 1000 species of animals. We already live in a "science-based world." You just don't realize it yet.

[JimCrom]

Got any proof to counter that? All I know is that all the Governments in the world that have ever rejected religion as an institution and officially embraced atheistic views are the perpetrators of the greatest human tragedies in the history of humanity.

All your bitching about 11th Century Crusades and gay marriage can't even begin to scratch the surface.

Actually in a world devoid of religion mariage would not exist, it's illogical. So the argument about gay marriage is idiotic.

Adolf Hitler's Third Reich did not officially embrace atheistic views and was the greatest perpetrator of genocide and responsible for the greatest human tragedy.

The Protestant Reformation was responsible for countless wars in Europe. These wars devastated the countryside, they ruined farms, caused famines, and filled fields with countless corpses.

Marriage has existed for thousands of years as a form of property management and advance. Marriages were sought and arranged to increase farmland, amount of livestock, and general household wealth. It was an economic arrangement. This can be seen in tracking the age of marriage. Earlier marriages occurred when land was available to set up a farm, and the weather was good enough to reap high yields. Marriages occurred later in life when land was scarce and sons stayed home to contribute their labor. These phenomena are all well documented by respected scholars in well-received historical monographs.

[Corbic]

You just gave 2 examples of social confinements that originate from religious beliefs. Again, ethics and morals should be created through logic and rational discussion. Like how it's illegal to own slaves, women have equal rights, segregation is illegal, you can worship whatever crazy shit you want, ect.. I don't know where you are getting this assumption that ALL atheists are 3rd world dictators. It is quite the contrary to my experience.


How are either of the examples I gave religious? Do you not know anything of WHY religious doctrines are formed the way they are and how they are a reflection of society more than anything.

Women's rights are born from child birthing and reproductive protection. You "have" to get married not because of magic words that people in ancient times are two stupid not to believe in, but because thousands of years ago ancient people realized when you have sex with a girl "which is fun" she gets pregnant. When she gets pregnant... she can't hunt, farm or defend her self. She also can't hunt, farm or defend her self when she has to watch over a child for 10-12 years.

So why should her parents... or village or all of us suffer and have to carry her dead weight cuz "you" had fun.... no... you want to have sex... your taking responsibility for that shit. And your response is... "if I'm taking responsibility for that shit... then that damn well better be my fucking kid!" So now your telling her to stay in the cave and are picking fights with anyone that talks to her.

There is your logic, rational and reasoning. No mystical mumbo-jumbo.

As far as slavery goes... hmmm. What does that have to do with religion? You can't even argue a "Racial" component to that since the people have enslaved their own race for eons.

Unity will divide, Division will unite. Remember that, because people will always find reasons to be "Different". Race, Country, Language, region, School, favorite color... Christians can't even agree on one doctrine, so why would "atheists" be able to agree on one set of values and cultural ways?

I don't know where you are getting this assumption that ALL atheists are 3rd world dictators. It is quite the contrary to my experience.


Your experience? Examples please. The only one I can think of is marxism which has pretty much proven out to be the biggest scourge of mankind ever. The latest estimates is that Marxism killed 94 million people last century.

The Crusades, which you atheists love to bring up... caused a mere 1-3 million deaths over the course of 250 years. It was also more of a reflection of Europe's solution for dealing internal riffs, over population and the problems revolving around feudalism and transfer of wealth then it was about religious discourse.

The crusades also opened up the Western world to the rest of the world as far as trade and future expansion.

Religion is the excuse, not the cause of problems.

[jvsc91talon]

Corbic- Damn man you show how ignorant you are more and more at every post. NO ONE commits violent atrocities in the name of atheism, but such atrocities are mandated in the bible, koran, etc... There is an awesome quote by physicist Steven Weinberg : "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion." These people also do it with such self-righteous cause they feel God is on their side. You need to read history books and stop getting your information from people who have an agenda like Kirk Cameron and Ray"Banana Man" Comfort. Hitler was in FACT a Roman Catholic. Mao and Stalin were in FACT worshiped as gods and were state religions. Im sorry but i would rather argue, discuss, reason and talk about morality instead of the claim of absolute morality where a god who condones slavery, rape, stoning etc... It is 2012 and it is about time you join us and leave the thinking of desert dwelling sheep herders behind us. Since when is evolution an atheistic view? You are also misinformed if you think it is about "survival of the fittest." Washington was hardly "devout." He never really spoke about it and didnt really go to church that often, refused to take communion. Lincoln was also not "devout" and even wrote an essay mocking the idea that jesus was the son of God.

[1 88 U]

Transatlantic African slave trade, European colonialism and genocide used the Bible as justifications.

[Corbic]

Transatlantic African slave trade, European colonialism and genocide used the Bible as justifications.

http://mondomagazine.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/o_rly.jpg

[1 88 U]

You are sticking you head in the sand if you believe the crimes against humanity committed by Communist Dictators scratches the surface of Ottoman expansion, Catholic Crusades, the Inquisition, Transatlantic African slave trade, European colonialism, all of which used religion for justification.

yes really.

[Corbic]

Corbic- Damn man you show how ignorant you are more and more at every post. NO ONE commits violent atrocities in the name of atheism, but such atrocities are mandated in the bible, koran, etc... There is an awesome quote by physicist Steven Weinberg : "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion." These people also do it with such self-righteous cause they feel God is on their side. You need to read history books and stop getting your information from people who have an agenda like Kirk Cameron and Ray"Banana Man" Comfort. Hitler was in FACT a Roman Catholic. Mao and Stalin were in FACT worshiped as gods and were state religions. Im sorry but i would rather argue, discuss, reason and talk about morality instead of the claim of absolute morality where a god who condones slavery, rape, stoning etc... It is 2012 and it is about time you join us and leave the thinking of desert dwelling sheep herders behind us. Since when is evolution an atheistic view? You are also misinformed if you think it is about "survival of the fittest." Washington was hardly "devout." He never really spoke about it and didnt really go to church that often, refused to take communion. Lincoln was also not "devout" and even wrote an essay mocking the idea that jesus was the son of God.

Glad you glazed over the fact that religion reflects humanity and culture and that it's used as an excuse related to other greater social issues.

Also if there is no God but the man with the most power... then how is Mao not a god?

[1 88 U]

http://mondomagazine.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/o_rly.jpg


BBC - Religions - Christianity: Atlantic slave trade and abolition (http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/history/slavery_1.shtml)


Religion as justification

The emergence of colonies in the Americas and the need to find labourers saw Europeans turn their attention to Africa with some arguing that the Transatlantic Slave Trade would enable Africans, especially the 'Mohammedans', to come into contact with Christianity and 'civilisation' in the Americas, albeit as slaves. It was even argued that the favourable trade winds from Africa to the Americas were evidence of this providential design.

Religion was also a driving force during slavery in the Americas. Once they arrived at their new locales the enslaved Africans were subjected to various processes to make them more compliant, and Christianity formed part of this. Ironically, although the assertion of evangelisation was one of the justifications for enslaving Africans, very little missionary work actually took place during the early years. In short, religion got in the way of a moneymaking venture by taking Africans away from their work. It also taught them potentially subversive ideas and made it hard to justify the cruel mistreatment of fellow Christians.

However, some clergy tried to push the idea that it was possible to be a 'good slave and Christian' and pointed to St Paul's epistles, which called for slaves to 'obey their masters', and St Peter's letters (1 Peter 2: 18-25), which appeared to suggest that it was wholly commendable for Christian slaves to suffer at the hands of cruel masters.

You are the very definition of Cognitive Dissonance.

[Corbic]

You are sticking you head in the sand if you believe the crimes against humanity committed by Communist Dictators scratches the surface of Ottoman expansion, Catholic Crusades, the Inquisition, Transatlantic African slave trade, European colonialism, all of which used religion for justification.

yes really.

But religion is not the cause. Your level of stupidity just bogles my mind.

Did you ever ask WHY the Ottoman Empire was forced to expand? Did you even read about WHY the Crusades happened?

I'm still baffled at how you can blame "african" slavery on religion. Was it not religion that set them free? Seems to me like the only reason they where in slaved was to support economic advancement of those with more technology and weaponry.

You really think all the geopolitical troubles of the world would vanish without a god?

[Corbic]

BBC - Religions - Christianity: Atlantic slave trade and abolition (http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/history/slavery_1.shtml)



You are the very definition of Cognitive Dissonance.

Did you miss the very first sentence?

The emergence of colonies in the Americas and the need to find labourers

So religion created that issue?

[1 88 U]

Glad you glazed over the fact that religion reflects humanity and culture and that it's used as an excuse related to other greater social issues.

Also if there is no God but the man with the most power... then how is Mao not a god?

Glad you glazed over the fact that atheism reflects humanity and culture and that it's used as an excuse related to other greater social issues.


Fucking duh.

Cognitive Dissonance. It's right in front of your face yet you choose to ignore.

[terrence]

How are either of the examples I gave religious? Do you not know anything of WHY religious doctrines are formed the way they are and how they are a reflection of society more than anything.

Women's rights are born from child birthing and reproductive protection. You "have" to get married not because of magic words that people in ancient times are two stupid not to believe in, but because thousands of years ago ancient people realized when you have sex with a girl "which is fun" she gets pregnant. When she gets pregnant... she can't hunt, farm or defend her self. She also can't hunt, farm or defend her self when she has to watch over a child for 10-12 years.

So why should her parents... or village or all of us suffer and have to carry her dead weight cuz "you" had fun.... no... you want to have sex... your taking responsibility for that shit. And your response is... "if I'm taking responsibility for that shit... then that damn well better be my fucking kid!" So now your telling her to stay in the cave and are picking fights with anyone that talks to her.

There is your logic, rational and reasoning. No mystical mumbo-jumbo.

As far as slavery goes... hmmm. What does that have to do with religion? You can't even argue a "Racial" component to that since the people have enslaved their own race for eons.

Unity will divide, Division will unite. Remember that, because people will always find reasons to be "Different". Race, Country, Language, region, School, favorite color... Christians can't even agree on one doctrine, so why would "atheists" be able to agree on one set of values and cultural ways?



Your experience? Examples please. The only one I can think of is marxism which has pretty much proven out to be the biggest scourge of mankind ever. The latest estimates is that Marxism killed 94 million people last century.

The Crusades, which you atheists love to bring up... caused a mere 1-3 million deaths over the course of 250 years. It was also more of a reflection of Europe's solution for dealing internal riffs, over population and the problems revolving around feudalism and transfer of wealth then it was about religious discourse.

The crusades also opened up the Western world to the rest of the world as far as trade and future expansion.

Religion is the excuse, not the cause of problems.

In response to keeping women home with burqas (not burka), that is because of Islamic tradition to conceal women from men. As for your other example, let's talk about "manifest destiny".

My examples are modern examples, because we live and vote on candidates that are not in textbooks yet. I am referring to the women's rights movement in america during the 20th century. So that women can vote, work with equal pay, have access to birth control, legal abortion, pregnancy discrimination in the workplace; you get the idea there is a lot.

Slavery is livid in the bible (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+25%3A44-46&version=NIV), and is a prohibited act.

My experiences are with normal everyday people who deny a deity. I can't speak for the others because I have never met them. As I mentioned, I can only speak from my own personal experience. But from your example of Stalin, yes he was an atheist but he was also a communist. His reasoning behind the elimination of all religion was to create the ideal communist society. Not all atheists are communist.

I never once brought up the crusades, but you validate a 250 year campaign of violence, because we now have open trade routes? Fuck dude..

[Corbic]

Glad you glazed over the fact that atheism reflects humanity and culture and that it's used as an excuse related to other greater social issues.


Sorry, I view it as a form of mental disorder.

[1 88 U]

So religion created that issue?

Religion is a construct of man. So is Atheism

[Corbic]

Religion is a construct of man. So is Atheism

That didn't answer the question.

[terrence]

I'm still baffled at how you can blame "african" slavery on religion. Was it not religion that set them free? Seems to me like the only reason they where in slaved was to support economic advancement of those with more technology and weaponry.

You really think all the geopolitical troubles of the world would vanish without a god?

If it were not for the quest of "god, gold and glory", the Portuguese would have not made it to the horn of Africa. Notice how everywhere they went missionaries were left behind to convert the "savages".

[Corbic]

If it were not for the quest of "god, gold and glory", the Portuguese would have not made it to the horn of Africa. Notice how everywhere they went missionaries were left behind to convert the "savages".

...and we are thankful for their efforts, no?

[1 88 U]

Sorry, I view it as a form of mental disorder.



You hand wave atrocities with a religious justification yet you attribute atrocities committed by Atheist as inherent to that philosophy and call all other atheist mentally disabled.

Once again you prove my theory that you are a bigot. A..

Racist
Sexist
Fascist
Religious Bigot.

[terrence]

...and we are thankful for their efforts, no?

My point is we could have the same results but through peaceful means, but instead use a belief in a higher power to push a hidden agenda.

[Corbic]

You hand wave atrocities with a religious justification yet you attribute atrocities committed by Atheist as inherent to that philosophy and call all other atheist mentally disabled.

Once again you prove my theory that you are a bigot. A..

Racist
Sexist
Fascist
Religious Bigot.


You have proven again you don't know what "ist" means. Also, didn't you say atheism isn't a religion?

[1 88 U]

That didn't answer the question.

Yes I did. Since you are so slow lets reiterate.

Man created religion.
Some men used said religion to do good shit. Some men used religion to do bad shit.

Man rejected the concept of a deity or deities.
Some men used the concept of there not being a deity to do good shit. Some men used the concept of there not being a deity to do bad shit.

Not necessarily in that order ;)

[Corbic]

Yes I did. Since you are so slow lets reiterate.

Man created religion.
Some men used said religion to do good shit. Some men used religion to do bad shit.

Man rejected the concept of a deity or deities.
Some men used the concept of there not being a deity to do good shit. Some men used the concept of there not being a deity to do bad shit.

You just completely invalidated your argument that atheism would cure anything then... as your are saying it makes no different. Congrats.

[1 88 U]

You just completely invalidated your argument that atheism would cure anything then... as your are saying it makes no different. Congrats.

Look through my posts in this thread again. I have not once implied that. My first posts defended mormanism against your attempt to discredit them as Christians. My next set of posts were towards 1LLEST.S13 outlining the hypocrisy of calling religious presidents intolerant yet at the same time being intolerant himself. You came in hand waving religious atrocities while condemning all atheist to being mentally ill and comparing them to Stalin and Mao.

[The Dude]

You just completely invalidated your argument that atheism would cure anything then... as your are saying it makes no different. Congrats.

We would be devoid of religious-based laws. That in itself would be a victory for everyone. You're still free to practice your religion as you please, so long as you don't impose your beliefs on someone else.
Many Christians get riled up because some people want things like "In God We Trust" taken off money, or "Under God" taken from the Pledge...as if that even comes close to comparing to the freedoms that are taken away from others due to their own beliefs.
For the record, I don't give a shit about either of those things. I just used them as an example.

[1 88 U]

I see two sides being intolerant and hypocritical.

Not all religion is bad and not all atheism is bad. If a person running for president was honest and shared my values yet didn't share my faith I would support him/her.

End of thread.

[usdm180sx]

Unsubscribed. All this bitching and arguing won't change anything. Looking for fucks to give on something that will make a difference

[Quatre]

i dont care if he prays to allah or god personally. i just wish he'd do his job and try to find a way to help the economy

Sent from my Kindle Fire

Allah and God are the same thing.

Allah means God in Arabic/Farsi.

People this is one of the simplest things you must learn.
I see some Muslim Ranters on the streets of LA yelling stupid things like
"These damn terrorists (Insert blasphemy) praising to Allah"
They're Christian or Jewish or whatever and basically are badmouthing their own
God unknowningly.

[180sxmaniac]

i dont care if he prays to allah or god personally. i just wish he'd do his job and try to find a way to help the economy

Sent from my Kindle Fire


Having been a History Major in college I've learned to vote based on who I don't want in office rather than who I want. Example: I voted 2012 for Obama because my pick Ron Paul didn't win the republican nominee and there was no way I was going to vote for Mitt. President's are puppets,that are controlled by globalist. It's kinda like "corporations are people my friend"<<<Mitt Romney quote lol and so they pay to put a president in office and once that president goes in office throw everything he said he was going to do prior to his election in the trash because he's going to listen and do what the globalists/elite tell him to do and if not he will end up like JFK. That's the primary reason why Ron Paul didn't win the RED nominee if you ask me,it was because he was such a supporter of the constitution and he would've done things that would've harmed the "Elite"(elite meaning not so much the wealthy/rich but rather the families/mob/goldman sach's etc who manipulate the system/country/currency) in this country like legalizing marijuana as well as bring all the troops home immediately and ending this war on terror nonsense with the middle east, as well as granting clemency to those in prison on minor drug charges,Ron Paul would've done all the things we hoped Obama was going to do. Obama has done a few things but this country has made little progress since he's been in office,things have only gotten worse,time for our system to crash so we can start from ground up.

[kingkilburn]

How is this still being debated? The law is clear. The political philosophy is clear. the logic is clear.

What someone privately believes is NONE of your damn business. It only matters when someone tries pressing their personal brand of bullshit onto others and at that point NO RELIGION has any right to push their shit on me.
/thread