Alignment/Suspension tuning/Curing UNDERSTEER

[Var]

My s13 has an understeer problem. i've tried several thing to cure this understeer but it wont go away

here are some of the things i tried


1-full negative camber in the front as much as camber plates allow.

2-raised rear end up to reduce rear negative camber

3-put stickier tires in the front

4-got stiffer springs in the rear

5-set adjustable sway bars full soft in the front and full stiff in the rear

6-lowered front end of car




the problem i have is not understeer at steady state cornering, but at the turn-in. i've tried many different driving techniques like trail braking, off-throttle turn-in, abrupt turn in, smooth turn in, weight transfer out-in....i'm so pissed off at this that i'm buying an ae86 now...but i still dont want to give up on my s13.

My real question has to do with front toe setting. I've read that toe-out is good for autocross and toe-in is good for high speed turning..well i dont care what's good for what. i just want to stop the turn-in understeer. how much toe can i run without absolutely shitting on my tires(es100's) i'd like to get 15,000 miles out of them. i got 10,000 miles out of my azenis. and which way should i toe in the front, out or in. thanks...Oh also is toe measured in degrees or inches?


while i'm at it... i'm getting tein tension rods and i plan to run ~8.5 or 9 degrees of caster...i dont know if this help understeer..i doubt it.

[s0ldats]

try all stock/neutral settings first and figure out what you're doing wrong. no offense intended, but it could be a simple driving error. at first i got ridiculous understeer and thought it was my settings but i've just kept practicing techniques and came over it.

if you're cock set on trying more settings, fiddle with the tire pressure. but seriously think about practicing more technique.

[Var]

try all stock/neutral settings first and figure out what you're doing wrong. no offense intended, but it could be a simple driving error. at first i got ridiculous understeer and thought it was my settings but i've just kept practicing techniques and came over it.

if you're cock set on trying more settings, fiddle with the tire pressure. but seriously think about practicing more technique.


i would agree with you except other cars that i've driven dont do it..not even mustangs .just the fuckin stupid s13

[Replicant_S14]

at first i got ridiculous understeer and thought it was my settings but i've just kept practicing techniques and came over it.


Same here. Even now, it takes a conscious effort on my part to not understeer entering corners. Brain-fade for a half a sec and.....rrrrrrrppppppppp!!!!!!!!


EDIT: just for s**ts and giggles, disconnect the front sway bar and see what happens.

[DuffMan]

S13 tends to understeer at turn in due to the front suspension geometry. The roll center of the MacGayson struts too low, and it gets even lower when you lower the car.

Whitelines solution for this is to use a large sway bar in front, but less stiff springs. On whiteline springs the back is actually slightly stiffer than the front. This improves the turn in response, but keeps the rear end in durring and exiting a turn.

I don't have a whiteline setup but I'm trying to do something similar, but stiffer. I sold the 8kg/mm front springs on my TEIN HE's and want to replace them with 6kg/mm or similar springs. Then I will get a 30mm or bigger front sway.

[s0ldats]

out of curiosity, what kind of suspension do you have right now? shock/spring or coilover?

[Rennen]

1-full negative camber in the front as much as camber plates allow.

2-raised rear end up to reduce rear negative camber

Depending on what "full negative" is, you might have decreased your front contact patch and increased you rear. Other than that, try less corner entry speed and/or smoother braking. One summer of autocrossing has taught me to keep even my stock S13 from understeering heavily. "Slow in, fast out" :D

-Matt

[Var]

S13 tends to understeer at turn in due to the front suspension geometry. The roll center of the MacGayson struts too low, and it gets even lower when you lower the car.

Whitelines solution for this is to use a large sway bar in front, but less stiff springs. On whiteline springs the back is actually slightly stiffer than the front. This improves the turn in response, but keeps the rear end in durring and exiting a turn.

I don't have a whiteline setup but I'm trying to do something similar, but stiffer. I sold the 8kg/mm front springs on my TEIN HE's and want to replace them with 6kg/mm or similar springs. Then I will get a 30mm or bigger front sway.


duffman thank you for this info.
you're the first person to ever explain this stuff. i knew there was something quirky about s13's in general.


:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

i've been posting about this problem on the forums for god knows how long, and ppl just keep saying "learn how to drive"

well fuck everyone. i've driven a bunch of different cars and no other cars do this. thanks again dude. i got an extra pair of ground control springs laying around somewhere. i'll replace the front 6.7K with 4.5K and set my front sway bar stiffer. If this solves my problem i swear i will be your best friend. thanks again.

[Var]

Depending on what "full negative" is, you might have decreased your front contact patch and increased you rear. Other than that, try less corner entry speed and/or smoother braking. One summer of autocrossing has taught me to keep even my stock S13 from understeering heavily. "Slow in, fast out" :D

-Matt


no i said full negative as far as camber plates allow which is about 3 degrees max.. i can still shred the outside edge of the tire when the car plows.


how do make the roll center of the car higher?


and why the fuck do all coilover companies sell their kits with the front springs stiffer than the rear? fuckers

[holisticbeatz]

Pull the hand brake

[Var]

jump off a bridge

[nightwalker]

hmmm....I have Tein HEs, a hicas rear sway bar, front and rear strut bar, subframe bushing inserts. No understeer. Kind of odd huh? I think your problem might be in your suspension setting. I set my cousin's car exactly like mine, calculating in his extra weight, and he has no understeering either. You might want to check your camber, because too much camber is not good.

[Replicant_S14]

i've been posting about this problem on the forums for god knows how long, and ppl just keep saying "learn how to drive"

well fuck everyone. i've driven a bunch of different cars and no other cars do this.

:kiss:

God cursed your car. There can be no other explanation.

[Var]

honestly that's what i was thinking.

nightwalker..3 degrees negative isnt too much is it? between the tire sidewall flexing and body roll i think i compensates. maybe i just need an alignment again..?? you know i let convince ppl it was all in my head but then i recently found out drift king says s13's have wierd understeering too. that stamped the seal of approval on it.

[Replicant_S14]

honestly that's what i was thinking.

nightwalker..3 degrees negative isnt too much is it?

what's your rear camber? Any funky tire sizing, spacers, offsets etc?

[Var]

my original question was never answered

how much toe can i run in the front without it being excessive wear on my tires? and toe in or toe out?

[Var]

what's your rear camber? Any funky tire sizing, spacers, offsets etc?


rear camber is prolly 1.5 negative. front is about twice that. no offset problems. tire sizing is 205-50-15 all around except stickier in the front.

maybe i just need to get an lsd and power through turns sideways to go faster.

[Rennen]

no i said full negative as far as camber plates allow which is about 3 degrees max.. i can still shred the outside edge of the tire when the car plows.

What pressures are you running those front tires at! I have stock camber settings and still don't get all over the sidewalls of my Azenis at 40psi, even when understeering.

Also, your car's setup must be truly fucked if you can't trail brake or lift throttle oversteer into a corner, I suggest going to an alignment shop and having them set everything back to stock specs.

-Matt

[Var]

i can get it to oversteer if i want. that's not what i want . . i want it to not understeer and not oversteer but turn in faster with full traction.

how about this idea...lmao

275-45-17 in the front with a 3 inch spacer
225-45-27 in the rear

[s0ldats]

funky toe in the front will cause your car to have bad turn in characteristics. make sure it's even on both sides. people like to have a little toe out in the front for auto-x.

[mbmbmb23]

and why the fuck do all coilover companies sell their kits with the front springs stiffer than the rear? fuckers


Because the front of your car is heavier (engine) than the rear...and due to inertia the front only gets heavier when you hit the brakes. If the front springs were the same as the rear, the nose of your car would dive terribly under hard braking and body roll in the corners would be worse.



-m

[Red]

i can get it to oversteer if i want. that's not what i want . . i want it to not understeer and not oversteer but turn in faster with full traction.

how about this idea...lmao

275-45-17 in the front with a 3 inch spacer
225-45-27 in the rear

Well that’s definitely an idea... Not a good idea, but still an idea.

You would be the only S13 to look fwd.

[nightwalker]

If you play with your suspension settings, (granted you have adjustable shocks, and stuff) You'll notice that the stiffer you set the rear, the more oversteer you get. I ended up setting mine up to about 5-6 clicks down from stiffest for my front, and just one click softer for my rear. No understeer. Even people who ride with me can tell the rear end wants to push itself around.

Too much camber in the front can hurt too. Not enough contact, and all you're going to do is plow. Play with it a bit. If you want to really set it right, get a pyrometer, and check your tire temps.

Other things to consider are spring preload in coilovers like the Tein HE and JIC Flta2s. And sway bars. Struts and sway bars will make the most difference in handling.

[TBreu007]

If you're at full negative camber in the front, your toe goes all out of wack. I'll bet anything you're toed-in in the front really bad. If you're getting understeer at turn-in in a 240sx, there's something really wrong! Get an alignment and see what happens. In race setup, I run front -2.5 camber and around 1/16th toe out...rear is -2 degrees camber and 1/8th toe in. I'm probably going to run a little more toe in for the rear because the car is jittery under braking and high speed corners.
There is really no need to run excessive caster as out cars already have a lot stock. When all else fails, then you mess with caster.

[mrmephistopheles]

i second Replicant's idea of disconnecting front swaybar. My car was pushing all over the place @ last DD, and I'm 75% sure it was due to my front bar (whiteline, softest setting). I'm disconnecting it for this weekend's DD. I'll let you know what happened.

[ridebmx]

for normal driving i was under the impression you should have alittle toe in on the front, as when you are driving you actually get pulled out some(wheels) to me it seemed logical. but again im speaking of normal driving, if i am infact correct, then dont forgot to allow for the little bit you will have to toe in, (could still have alittle toe out)

[DuffMan]

no i said full negative as far as camber plates allow which is about 3 degrees max.. i can still shred the outside edge of the tire when the car plows.


how do make the roll center of the car higher?


and why the fuck do all coilover companies sell their kits with the front springs stiffer than the rear? fuckers

Making the roll center of the car higher is tough. It gets lower the more you lower the car. I'm not saying you shouldnt lower the car, but its a trade off. You need the front control arm to angle up more. BMW's and Porsche's have front struts like a 240sx, but they positioned the mounting points better. There is a product I think works by relocating the front ball joint lower down. I dont know much about it though, but it exists in Japan. In the rear you can buy an adjustable RLCA like SPLparts sells, but its $$ and the front is where the real problem is.

The higher spring rates in front is because the front has more tendancy towards roll due to the poorer geometry of the struts vs. multilink. You do want the front stiffer than the back, I think its just better to do it via sway bars than springs. The sway bar acts progressively the more you roll, so when iniating a turn, the back is stiffer compared to the front and it doesnt understeer as much.

[nightwalker]

I don't understand how you guys with whiteline sways are getting understeer. I setup my cousin's car (whitelines, HE) and his car had no understeer. I don't understeer either. There is probably more to this than we are assuming.

[adey]

For what it's worth, I seem(ed) to have at least some strain of the same chronic understeer that you describe... nothing I've tried so far has helped!

I have come to the conclusion that it is probably my driving style, which has seen no "proper" training other than reading 1/2 a book and having had an instructor sit with me for 3 or 4 laps on a track day.

Thinking a little bit more... do you have a 2-way LSD? If you do, that would be a very probable cause for your turn-in understeer.

Otherwise, I might suggest trying drastically different driving styles (in a safe environment of course) and/or driving instruction. At very least, have an instructor (or otherwise VERY knowledgable/experienced) driver sit by you when you drive to try and help diagnose the problem.

[Var]

maybe we are all talking about different levels of driving. On track, although i've never been there, i dont think my car would understeer at all. When i'm trying to drive fast through the mountain, my car understeers on anything below 50mph. after 50mph, the car feels neutral and can easily be made to oversteer. TBreu007..you may be right about my aligment being out of whack cause i never got it aligned after the camber plates , i just set them full negative.

i want my car to be able to pivot 90 degrees at lower speeds without underteering and as fast as i want to turn it. LIKE A COROLLA>>to those who care i bought one yesterday night. anyways back to ghey understeer. what about ride height..i have my ride height setup so the fender gap in the rear is more than the front by about an inch. i thought this would help but ehh. not so much. i think the biggest help was stepping up from 4.5K to 5.5K springs in the rear.

Duffman: if you know anything about those things they have in japan to fix the roll center link it to me.

[Replicant_S14]

Funny pic regarding mac-strut lowering.

http://www.kconline.com/zach/postpics/forums/carhandleslikecrap.jpg

[Var]

umm if that's mac-strut why is the shock over here and the spring over there?

[DuffMan]

Heres the thing that improves the roll center.

http://page6.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/f12352217

I got that link off a thread on freshalloy, it was posted by someone with the screen name "Wiisass". You might need a yahoo auction id to view it. In fact it might not even be viewable anymore.

[Replicant_S14]

umm if that's mac-strut why is the shock over here and the spring over there?

Struts just act as the damper + upper control arm. It doesn't matter where the spring is.

I think the car in the pic is VW. VW=strange :ghey:

[Wiisass]

It's probably not showing up becuase I posted that a week or two ago and the auction has ended. There's always one or two on there you just have to look around for them. If I see one the next time I'm looking around I'll post it.

It's true that the roll center sucks on our cars. But in my opinion the height of the roll center isn't as detrimental as the lateral movement of it. But I think roll center adjusting and all that stuff is a little too much for most people to handle. It's a great idea, but to have it set up right and working would take either full scale modeling using something like ADAMS or another suspension analyzing program or a lot of trial and error.

I've dealt with understeer problems with my car and have determined that it's my driving. I used to try and turn in too fast and jerky and the car would just plow, but when I turn slower and smoother the car can take higher lateral acceleration entries with ease. You mentioned that when you turn in over 50mph you don't understeer. You could just be turning smoother due to the higher speed and bigger radius of the turn. Or you could just be driving past the limit of the front suspension. Which means it would be better for you to change your style than redesign the whole front suspension of the car. But if you do let me know, i have some ideas.

Tim

[Halz]

Where is the front roll-center located on the stock 240SX?

....if someone wanted to get XYZ co-ordinates of the suspension, it could be modeled pretty easily with CAD software.

[240 2NR]

I would also throw my support behind the toe-in theory. I replaced my front tie rod ends and did a fairly ghetto alignment to check my toe (2x4's and a pair of tape measures). Drove around for a few thousand miles, no weird tire wear issues, and it felt fairly neutral on the track. Then I lowered the car and since then turn in has been sluggish and the car feels resistant and skittish before the corner, mid corner or in long sweepers it feel pretty stable. My lap times got worse as well and the car was much less predicable. I've been long over due for an alignment but I've had numorous set backs and reasons for putting it off (getting done next week after my latest fiasco with camber plates), but ultimately lowering the car has led to poor turn in and understeer plus accelerated tire wear.

I think lowering also increases the toe-in in the rear making the rear more stable as well, so the front is more prone to understeer and the rear is less prone to oversteer.

[mistert]

http://www.splparts.com/Parts/_S13/Suspension/Multilink.asp

look halfway down the page, SPL pro rear lower arms S13 $784 Special order

[mrmephistopheles]

i second Replicant's idea of disconnecting front swaybar. My car was pushing all over the place @ last DD, and I'm 75% sure it was due to my front bar (whiteline, softest setting). I'm disconnecting it for this weekend's DD. I'll let you know what happened.

Well it definitely helped. Whiteline bars (front) (even on their softest setting) provide WAY too much understeer. I've got one more event to go to before I leave for Japan.. I'll do some further testing at it.

[Var]

Well it definitely helped. Whiteline bars (front) (even on their softest setting) provide WAY too much understeer. I've got one more event to go to before I leave for Japan.. I'll do some further testing at it.


what are your front spring rates?

[Replicant_S14]

Well it definitely helped. Whiteline bars (front) (even on their softest setting) provide WAY too much understeer. I've got one more event to go to before I leave for Japan.. I'll do some further testing at it.

Ha! I was just about to post that in the interest of science, I have diconnected my front bar (well...removed really). Been driving around for a couple of days like that. I'm very conservative on the street so I'll need to do a track-day or auto-x to make any sort of evaluation. One thing tho, the car sure does ride better when the front independant suspension is ACTUALLY independant. lol
I may soften the rear bar fully before an event and go from there. We'll see.

[UCC0279]

Well, you might want to try more nagative camber in rear.
It helps trun-in.
BTW, you can try to to bring up your front end a little bit since it reduces the corner weight a bit (less load placing on your front tires)

You can try my setting as follow:

-3 front camber with o toe.
-2 rear camber with zero toe too.
Supension Mod:
HTS 45-way shocks with kg/mm spring rated at 6.6 and 5.2
ST sway bars all around and KAZZ 2way (BIG UNDERTSEER without proper transfering the weight to front.......)
I also notice with a larger front sway bar, it helps truns in at low-mid speed corner.
kind of opposite to general believe that larger sway bar creates UNDERSTEER.
I think that could be simply that larger bar balances the load from heavily loaded tire to other one. well, it's just my experience.
Well, I have both adjustalbe upper control arms and toe control arms.
According to my friend, with the stock control arms you can dial in -1.5 max camber
in rear with zero toe. beyond that you need a adjustable toe arms and upper arms.

Hope this helps

[TBreu007]

I also have Whiteline sways on my race car and have never experienced understeer with my current setup of ~450/350lb springs.
Front spring rates are higher because of braking. If you have low spring rates in the front, the springs would load up on braking to be fully on the bump stops and have infinite spring rate. The end result would be awful, jittery understeer and almost total loss of control.
Before you disconnect sway bars, change spring rates, sell your first born or do other drastic things, get a proper alignment. It can make a HUGE difference when it is out of specs. BTW, don't settle with factory tolerences of sometimes + or - one degree. Pay a little extra and get exact settings. For a mostly street driven 240 with an occasional fast corner session, I would recommend -2 degrees camber, 0 toe front and -1.5 camber rear and 0 toe rear. For street driving, more toe will eat tires and make the car track in ruts down the road.

[Var]

HTS 45-way shocks with kg/mm spring rated at 6.6 and 5.2
ST sway bars all around and KAZZ 2way (BIG UNDERTSEER without proper transfering the weight to front.......)
I also notice with a larger front sway bar, it helps truns in at low-mid speed corner.



damn my spring rates are damn close. 6.7K and 5.5K. but i got crappy KYB AGX shocks. I will definitely be getting an alignment.

Thanks for the tip on ride height, i'll try to bring the back end a little lower(same as raising the front right?)

Do you guys have adjustable caster? what are your caster settings? i've been told not to fuck around with it unless it's my last option.

And i also heard Tein T/C rods will increase understeer because of the added stiffness, and from other ppl i heard it will decrease understeer because the suspension angles will remain constant during cornering. which is it?

[adey]

Everyone recommends 0 toe... I've heard that toe-in is a good thing though, especially on lowered cars. I can't explain why, but I'm sure someone else can. :p I'll probably ask the alignment guys to give me maybe 1/8" (maybe 1/2 or 1 degree?) of toe in when I get my alignment. (yes, blindly listening to friends who I think are smarter!)

[TBreu007]

Toe in will make the car more stable. Toe out will make the car more jittery, but it will give it more ultimate grip. Toe eats tires like crazy though. The ideal setup is a little toe out in the front and a little toe in in the rear unless you like to drift a lot then 0 toe or even toe out in the rear would be better.

[adey]

Why would toe-out give a car more ultimate grip? Picturing a car taking a turn and the weight transfer to the outside (front) wheel, it seems like toe-out *might* cause some understeer... I can't visualize why grip would be better in either case (toe out/in), though...

I think I see why a drifter would want toe out in front and rear (the way weight transfers and the way the cars move seem to make sense), but not why toe out in front gives more ultimate grip. Sorry if this seems a little basic!

[LanceS13]

Why would toe-out give a car more ultimate grip? Picturing a car taking a turn and the weight transfer to the outside (front) wheel, it seems like toe-out *might* cause some understeer... I can't visualize why grip would be better in either case (toe out/in), though...



Think about it...the inside wheel is following a smaller arc than the outside tire. Toe out gives the inside tire a stronger angle of attack without putting two much slip angle on the outside tire. But alot of toe out can possibly numb the steering response because the loaded tire has to be turned more to acheive the same steering angle as it did with zero toe. A general rule of thumb (to a certain extent) is: front toe out makes it turn in more, rear toe in increases stability/decreases oversteer, and rear toe out makes you run into things you didn't plan on running into.

[sLiDewAys]

UNDERSTEER? WEIRD!
I am currently runing:
-Tein He's ( ADJUSTABLE FRONT PLATES)
-Tein Tension Rods (ADJUSTED TO ACTORY SPEC)
-CUSCO Tension Rod Mid Brace ( HARD TIGHTENED)
-Ebay.com Strut Tower Bars
-91 240sx Se rims w/ KHUMO ECSTA KH11's 195-60-15's

mycar is lowered about 3 inches from factory in front, and about 2.7 inches in the rear from factory. i have my struts set at 5 all the way arround with NEGETIVE -1.5 DEGREE IN THE FRONT and NEGETIVE- 2.7 DEGREE CAMBER IN THE REAR!

-NOOOOO UNDERSTEER-

of course, i use the same setting for drift as i do for grip. and not to ragg on KHUMO, but they arent the best tire and 195 are stock size by the way!:) i love this sliding monster! my car ROCKS, time for some 16x7.5 and rock stretched 205/50/16's

brandon

[adey]

Think about it...the inside wheel is following a smaller arc than the outside tire. Toe out gives the inside tire a stronger angle of attack without putting two much slip angle on the outside tire. But alot of toe out can possibly numb the steering response because the loaded tire has to be turned more to acheive the same steering angle as it did with zero toe....Yes, I've thought about it. :hammer: That's what led me to the question! :squintd: j/p, I'm sure you meant no harm. (If you did I'mma just gonna have to have my russian mafia friends swing by your parents' house...) :p

The arcs (wider outer, smaller inner) stuff makes sense and all, but under *heavy* cornering (mid corner, not necessarily turn-in), your outer tire(s) receive the vast majority of the load, under which circumstances I imagine front toe-out would give poorer steering qualities... is there much of a difference in behaviour of a car (due to toe) between turn-in and mid-turn (and exit?)? Or do the cornering characteristics (as I suspect) change from each point in the turn?

[Wiisass]

With toe out in the front, the outside tire in a steady state turn will have a lower slip angle than the inner tire. This will allow it to take more lateral forces and corner with more grip. The car will probably turn slightly wider because it will most likely be following the line of the outside tire. The inside tire will have a high slip angle but since it will not be supporting as much force in a high g turn it's not a big deal.

Tim

[orange-grey]

I think part of your problem is too much front camber. I used to run my plates full in, and it used to be way too hard to get the car to turn in. I now have them at about -1.5 and the car feels so much nicer, but it pushes a just a tad more after the apex. I get no sidewall scrubbing at all, so I'm thinking you need more air pressure. I run 1/16 toe out on the front as well, with -1.0 and 1/8 in rear.
Oh, and you're sure you have plenty of suspension travel up front?

[LanceS13]

...Yes, I've thought about it. :hammer: That's what led me to the question! :squintd: j/p, I'm sure you meant no harm. (If you did I'mma just gonna have to have my russian mafia friends swing by your parents' house...) :p

The arcs (wider outer, smaller inner) stuff makes sense and all, but under *heavy* cornering (mid corner, not necessarily turn-in), your outer tire(s) receive the vast majority of the load, under which circumstances I imagine front toe-out would give poorer steering qualities... is there much of a difference in behaviour of a car (due to toe) between turn-in and mid-turn (and exit?)? Or do the cornering characteristics (as I suspect) change from each point in the turn?

Oh, I didn't mean anything by that...I just say that sometimes.
I think it does make more difference at turn in than at steady state. About the only adverse effect it has after turn-in is the slightly more "numb" feeling it can give...which is just you having to turn the steering wheel slightly more than you're used to to achieve the same slip angles on the outside tire.
After turn-in, if you're running zero toe, the inside tire has a smaller slip angle than the outside; the proper amount of toe out will sorta equalize those slip angles at the expense of "response". Since you're running the same kind of tire on each side (I hope), and each tire works best in a certain range of slip angles, this is a good thing.
So unless you're completely lifting the inside front, your inside tire is still working, so a little toe out should help overall...but I imagine you're personal driving style would have a say in the matter as well.
If the front is toed in, the outside tire will have a higher angle of attack for the same amount of steering wheel input, but the inside tire will be working against you because it now has a negative slip angle, which will cause understeer. Kinda rambling, but does that make sense?

[adey]

Cheers for the explanation! Makes more sense to me now. :beer:
I think to fully grasp the concepts though, I'll have to toy around with my alignment at the track. :)

[Var]

I think part of your problem is too much front camber. I used to run my plates full in, and it used to be way too hard to get the car to turn in. I now have them at about -1.5 and the car feels so much nicer, but it pushes a just a tad more after the apex. I get no sidewall scrubbing at all, so I'm thinking you need more air pressure. I run 1/16 toe out on the front as well, with -1.0 and 1/8 in rear.
Oh, and you're sure you have plenty of suspension travel up front?

I'm not bottoming out. Thanks for the advice. I'll bring my camber down to 2 degrees and see what happens. Tire pressures are 38psi front and 40psi rear. I think that's adequate. I'll get 1/16 toe out as well.

[mrmephistopheles]

what are your front spring rates?
6k :-P

Also, it looks like my car won't be seeing any track days between now and the time I leave for Japan... :-( not that I won't be going to the track again :D.

[Var]

Ok i just got my car back from alignment. My alignment was pretty whacky. The camber was -3.0 on the left and -3.2 on the right. The left side had .45 toe in and the right side had .86 toe in. Now i have -2.0 camber on both sides and 1/16 total toe out. The only turn i took from the alignment shop back to my workplace was a u-turn and i already felt a PHAT difference. It didnt understeer where i thought it would and the steering wheel came back to center quicker after the turn. my caster is at 5.5 degrees on both sides.

[Var]

Holy shit i just drove my car down Crystal Springs road... !!!!!!! world of difference. I almost regret going with a stickier tire in the front. The car turns soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much better and it holds a line. The slop is gone. I turn the wheel less and the car turns more. Holy crap i feel like i can go so much faster. Peace out. i'm going drivin.