Redtop SR20DET timing and head gasket question

[ST3ALTHPSYCH0]

First, the timing issue (which I think lead to the HG). I was having bogging and what not, so I decided to check the timing. Timing light showed it to be about 2-2.5" to the right of the 20* BTdC mark. My bogging ended up being due to 1) the compressor inlet gasket leaking and 2) a 20 year old 75 lph fuel pump (I got the car already swapped.... I stupidly assumed that it was done correctly). However, through the process it set the timing so that it was 15* BTDC according to the timing marks. It bogged, backfired and had horrid throttle response. My question is: can the crankshaft pulley be misaligned on the crankshaft? Last CSP I pulled was on a Camaro, and it was keyed.

Now the HG. Replaced the compressor inlet gasket, dropped in a Walbro 255, put the timing back where it was (the clean spot on the CAS looked like that's where it's been for its whole life), and she ran like a scalded dog this morning. I did some spirited highway and surface road driving (redline in 2nd and 3rd, brisk acceleration, etc) and came home and parked it. While I was sitting in the car, I started hearing hissing (though I might have picked up a nail or something), but when I got out, I smelled hot antifreeze. I popped the hood hoping to see the radiator cap venting, but instead (after some serious searching) I found the steam escaping between the block and head between the #1 and 2 cylinder.

With that said, I want to make sure I have a few things straight:
First, if a straight edge shows no gaps, I can get away without having the surfaces resurfaced, yes?
Second, my plan (broke as I am) is a cosworth MLM 1.1 mm gasket with ARP head studs; I have found them on EBAY new at $130 for the studs and about $175 shipped for the gasket. Is there either a cheaper place to get them or a better value? I'm running the stock T25 @ 11 or 12 PSI on an otherwise stock engine, I'm sure that matters.
Third, Does copper spray == Indian head Liquid copper gasket shelac? I only ask because I have a bottle of Indian Head.
Forth, I can't tell from the tear downs I've seen, Can I get by with just pulling the manifolds, or will I have to completely tear them down (I.E. pull the whole turbo and the fuel rail)?
Fifth, I've read in some of the other HG threads that you use the FSM for the tightening pattern, but not the torque when using an aftermarket HG, true?
Finally, is there a breakin period for head gaskets?

Sorry for what are surely some stupid questions, but I'm only a shadetree mechanic due to the fact that I can't afford to pay someone else. I've not done a HG on ANYTHING in this first 30 years of my life, so I'm a little leery.

[fliprayzin240sx]

SR20 crank pulley is keyed. If they lost the key, I dont see how the hell it wouldnt spin off the crank. I'd say, pop the valve cover off, set the engine in TDC and double check your mechanical timing. Just to make sure its not off.

As far as the HG, you sure its leaking between the head and not from a hose somewhere? I've never a SR actually leak coolant between the head and block unless there's a crack on the block.

First, if a straight edge shows no gaps, I can get away without having the surfaces resurfaced (YES)
Second, my plan (broke as I am) is a cosworth MLM 1.1 mm gasket with ARP head studs; I have found them on EBAY new at $130 for the studs and about $175 shipped for the gasket. Is there either a cheaper place to get them or a better value? I'm running the stock T25 @ 11 or 12 PSI on an otherwise stock engine, I'm sure that matters. (FRESH STOCK NISSAN HEADGASKET AND ARP STUDS DOES WONDERS ON BUDGET)
Third, Does copper spray == Indian head Liquid copper gasket shelac? I only ask because I have a bottle of Indian Head. (IS THIS THE COOPER SPRAY? IT WOULDNT HURT TO USE IT)
Forth, I can't tell from the tear downs I've seen, Can I get by with just pulling the manifolds, or will I have to completely tear them down (I.E. pull the whole turbo and the fuel rail)? (YOU CAN PULL THE WHOLE HEAD WITH THE MANIFOLDS ON IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING, ITS JUST GONNA BE HEAVY).
Fifth, I've read in some of the other HG threads that you use the FSM for the tightening pattern, but not the torque when using an aftermarket HG, true? (FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS FOR ARP HEAD STUDS IF THATS WHAT YOU'RE USING)
Finally, is there a breakin period for head gaskets? (NO)

[ST3ALTHPSYCH0]

SR20 crank pulley is keyed. If they lost the key, I dont see how the hell it wouldnt spin off the crank. I'd say, pop the valve cover off, set the engine in TDC and double check your mechanical timing. Just to make sure its not off.

As far as the HG, you sure its leaking between the head and not from a hose somewhere? I've never a SR actually leak coolant between the head and block unless there's a crack on the block.

First, if a straight edge shows no gaps, I can get away without having the surfaces resurfaced (YES)
Second, my plan (broke as I am) is a cosworth MLM 1.1 mm gasket with ARP head studs; I have found them on EBAY new at $130 for the studs and about $175 shipped for the gasket. Is there either a cheaper place to get them or a better value? I'm running the stock T25 @ 11 or 12 PSI on an otherwise stock engine, I'm sure that matters. (FRESH STOCK NISSAN HEADGASKET AND ARP STUDS DOES WONDERS ON BUDGET)
Third, Does copper spray == Indian head Liquid copper gasket shelac? I only ask because I have a bottle of Indian Head. (IS THIS THE COOPER SPRAY? IT WOULDNT HURT TO USE IT)
Forth, I can't tell from the tear downs I've seen, Can I get by with just pulling the manifolds, or will I have to completely tear them down (I.E. pull the whole turbo and the fuel rail)? (YOU CAN PULL THE WHOLE HEAD WITH THE MANIFOLDS ON IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING, ITS JUST GONNA BE HEAVY).
Fifth, I've read in some of the other HG threads that you use the FSM for the tightening pattern, but not the torque when using an aftermarket HG, true? (FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS FOR ARP HEAD STUDS IF THATS WHAT YOU'RE USING)
Finally, is there a breakin period for head gaskets? (NO)


Thanks so much!! I did actually see the steam and bubbles escaping from between the head and block.... I REALLY hope that there's not a crack. I had decided on aftermarket due to reading this page (http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_articles/articletype/articleview/articleid/1098/article.aspx), but I keep seeing OEM +ARP recommended on Zilvia. I may go that route. I'm just still getting over the sticker shock of $130 for the studs. I'm guessing, based on what you said, that a warped head isn't out of the question. Is that something that decking can usually take care of or is a new head in the cards at that point?

[fliprayzin240sx]

Thanks so much!! I did actually see the steam and bubbles escaping from between the head and block.... I REALLY hope that there's not a crack. I had decided on aftermarket due to reading this page (http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_articles/articletype/articleview/articleid/1098/article.aspx), but I keep seeing OEM +ARP recommended on Zilvia. I may go that route. I'm just still getting over the sticker shock of $130 for the studs. I'm guessing, based on what you said, that a warped head isn't out of the question. Is that something that decking can usually take care of or is a new head in the cards at that point?

Well, if the head is warped, you'd probably be better off waiting on the HG until you figure out how much is milled out. You can get a thicker HG (will have to be aftermarket) if they take more than just 1mm. IIRC, stock HG thickness is .08, most aftermarket MHG starts off around 1.0/1.2 to as much as 1.8mm.

[ST3ALTHPSYCH0]

Well, if the head is warped, you'd probably be better off waiting on the HG until you figure out how much is milled out. You can get a thicker HG (will have to be aftermarket) if they take more than just 1mm. IIRC, stock HG thickness is .08, most aftermarket MHG starts off around 1.0/1.2 to as much as 1.8mm.

I thought I read that stock was 1.1mm, but I've read so much today that I'm not sure. But you're saying that it's likely to recover a warped head with milling? Probably cheaper than sourcing a head.

Thanks again for your help. I'll pull the head when I get a chance and see how unlucky I was. I'm going to have to wait a few months to do this anyway, I probably ought to just hold off until I can afford a wideband too. :-/

[ST3ALTHPSYCH0]

So I just read in one of the PowerFC threads about advancing mechanical timing for cold idle, then setting the PFC to compensate....... gonna be pissed at myself if I find this is what was done.
REALLY wishing that I hadn't gotten a preswapped vehicle, just for the headaches of not knowing what was and wasn't done.
Totally off topic, but is it true that the clutchfan steals almost 20 hp?

[Luvs2slide]

OEM HG rumored to be 0.8 or 1.1mm
Can't...Well SHOULDN'T run a MLS without decking the head WITH the front cover. There is a .2mm or 2mm difference between the head surface and front cover. I'd say like 20% get lucky without doing it correctly.

[ST3ALTHPSYCH0]

At <$100 shipped for a complete OEM upper gasket kit, I'm going OEM.
Thx for the input though

[mattsil80wis]

I would unbolt the manifolds from the head and just use a strap to hold them out of the way so you can take the head off by itself

[ST3ALTHPSYCH0]

I would unbolt the manifolds from the head and just use a strap to hold them out of the way so you can take the head off by itself

That's my plan. I asked because I REALLY don't want to have to pull the turbo again. I had to do that a few months back due to the anti backoff plates not being installed at the time of swap :bash:

[JDMRIDDAZ]

ok leaking from between block and head ive never seen...
thats seems like damage...
sr20de hg is .9mm
sr20det oem hg is 1.1
i read a post about mhg from a builder in japan and using stock with arp is good up to 500hp..
if ur gunna remove head remove everything properly...
it will be heavy and its harder this way...
i use the straight edge ruler trick always and it works w copper spray or indian shelac
copper spray in a newer thing where as shelac is the old style
they both work..i just hope ur block or head doesnt have any cracks

[ST3ALTHPSYCH0]

ok leaking from between block and head ive never seen...
thats seems like damage...
sr20de hg is .9mm
sr20det oem hg is 1.1
i read a post about mhg from a builder in japan and using stock with arp is good up to 500hp..
if ur gunna remove head remove everything properly...
it will be heavy and its harder this way...
i use the straight edge ruler trick always and it works w copper spray or indian shelac
copper spray in a newer thing where as shelac is the old style
they both work..i just hope ur block or head doesnt have any cracks

^That makes 2 of us. If I would have known that such an issue was so rare, I would have shot some video. If there's a crack, it will require exposing the top of the block, it's not in evidence from the outside.

[JDMRIDDAZ]

yes tru only when u open it up
if u dont see with ur eyes then u can have a machine shop pressure test the head
and i think also the block..
this would be the best to do so u dont waste money on a bad block or head..

[ST3ALTHPSYCH0]

Alright, I mis remembered. It was in the #3 area. I realized this morning that You can't even see the intake side of the block/head with the intake manifold on.

Here's some pics I snapped to show the deposits where the coolant was leaking
https://plus.google.com/photos/114841193638383504498/albums/5747953843635367297

Just in case my panic set in and it was the hose up hear the #2, do you guys think it would be safe to idle until it warms up and then shut it off to see where exactly it was leaking, or not risk it since it might be a head issue?

[ST3ALTHPSYCH0]

OK, I'm finding 2 different part numbers for ARP studs
202-5402 & 202-4303
Can someone confirm which is the right kit?

[Pinggg]

Alright, I mis remembered. It was in the #3 area. I realized this morning that You can't even see the intake side of the block/head with the intake manifold on.

Here's some pics I snapped to show the deposits where the coolant was leaking
https://plus.google.com/photos/114841193638383504498/albums/5747953843635367297

Just in case my panic set in and it was the hose up hear the #2, do you guys think it would be safe to idle until it warms up and then shut it off to see where exactly it was leaking, or not risk it since it might be a head issue?

If you wanna check for leaks in those hoses, just buy/rent a pressure tester.