brakes gets spongy

[davidpham]

So I bleed all 4 brakes in order of
Pass. rear -> driver rear -> pass. front -> Driver front
When the car is off it would brake normal
but when i turned on the car it would barly even brake its like the pedal gets hard after i pump it but when i stop pumpping it would get all soft and weak.
i have q45 front brakes caliper + rotors. I believe i have stock s13 master cylinder.

[2.5T_/<ouki]

Hrmmm....sounds like there is still air in the lines.

[davidpham]

ahh is there a way i check? this is going to be my 3rd time bleeding it..

[zooopreme]

Like 2.5T said, there's definitely air in there. Bleed so more, my friend.

[S13teen]

The brake bleeding order is driver rear. pass rear. pass front. driver front because the brake lines go from brake mc to pass side of car an back to the rear

[KiLLeR2001]

The brake bleeding order is driver rear. pass rear. pass front. driver front because the brake lines go from brake mc to pass side of car an back to the rear

If you own an RHD car this would be true. You want to start farthest away from BMC.

So...

LHD order: Rear right, rear left, front right, front left
RHD order: Rear left, rear right, front left, front right

[davidpham]

oh man, back to the store for more brake fluid i go!

[ShadowMan]

has anyone done some hard driving and had the brake lines do the opposite and go super stiff. Maybe that oneway valve is goin bad or somethin else? only happened once like two days ago after getting off the freeway and having to down shift to not hit a bum then having the brake pedal actually kick back against my foot and staying super stiff until I could drive off. S13 hatch with sr20 swap, 5 lug conversion I dont what else would really apply here?

[S13teen]

If you own an RHD car this would be true. You want to start farthest away from BMC.

So...

LHD order: Rear right, rear left, front right, front left
RHD order: Rear left, rear right, front left, front right

You are wrong. And dont know what youre talking about. On usdm 240sx from the master the hardlines goes to the front calipers and one hardline goes to the rear on the passenger side along with fuel in and fuel out hardlines on the passenger frame rail. Then when it reaches the rear, the brake hardline goes into a splitter on the rear right and then the final longest line goes to the rear left.

So the order is RL, RR, FR, FL On Usdm s13.

FSM MY FRIEND. READ IT.
And if you must know, with ABS it's the same. NOOB! Now you have been enlightened mr. Killer2001, you should go re-bleed your brakes correctly.Dont even start with JDM and RHD when you have much more to learn on USDM grasshopper. ahhaha

http://i392.photobucket.com/albums/pp4/5x114/FSM.jpg

[davidpham]

OHHH so it start from the RL because the master cylinder brake line go across the firewalll right?

[One_love_silvia]

did you check to see if you have any leaks? like a torn piston boot or somethin? also check the slide pins in the horse shoes. if one of them is seized, it will prevent the brakes from performing properly. it will probably warp your rotors and brake pads too.

[davidpham]

i realized i havent bleed the master cylinder yet!

[KiLLeR2001]

You are wrong. And dont know what youre talking about. On usdm 240sx from the master the hardlines goes to the front calipers and one hardline goes to the rear on the passenger side along with fuel in and fuel out hardlines on the passenger frame rail. Then when it reaches the rear, the brake hardline goes into a splitter on the rear right and then the final longest line goes to the rear left.

So the order is RL, RR, FR, FL On Usdm s13.

FSM MY FRIEND. READ IT.
And if you must know, with ABS it's the same. NOOB! Now you have been enlightened mr. Killer2001, you should go re-bleed your brakes correctly.Dont even start with JDM and RHD when you have much more to learn on USDM grasshopper. ahhaha

[IMG]



LOL. This attack towards me seems a bit personal. You mad at something?

I made a later post in regards to this same issue shown here...

http://zilvia.net/f/s-chassis/455870-s13-brake-problem.html#post4713801

Now lets get a few things straight... My advice was given based on personal experience. I've been bleeding the brakes on an s-chassis since you were in middle school. I've tried all different combinations and rotations. And I've tried S13/S14 calipers and Z32 calipers. Not only on my vehicle but on my friend's vehicles as well which include over 10 different S13/S14's.

And from what I've discovered, starting with the rears in any order does not matter. You can start from the left or right side with the rears. I prefer starting with right rear. IT DOES NOT MATTER.

The important factors are the front calipers and bleeding the master cylinder. If you haven't bled the master cylinder you need to go back and do that first. Once the master cylinder is bled you can perform the caliper bleeding process. Start with the rears and then move to the fronts.

I've tried doing the LF caliper first before the RF caliper and I ALWAYS, ALWAYS end up having air in the system, or it takes abnormally long time to bleed it all out. But doing RF and then LF calipers it doesn't take long at all, and all the air is bled out correctly.

Now you can kindly recede into the darkness you piece of shit lurker, let me know when you are able to contribute successfully.

edit:

i realized i havent bleed the master cylinder yet!

This is your problem, not your bleeding order. Bleed your BMC and then bleed the calipers. RR, LR, RF, LF. Make sure you bleed the BMC properly!!! Don't stop until all air bubbles are gone.

If you still have problems come back to this thread and I will further help you diagnose any braking issues. S13teen however, won't be able to help you with anything.

[wangan_cruiser]

You are wrong. And dont know what youre talking about. On usdm 240sx from the master the hardlines goes to the front calipers and one hardline goes to the rear on the passenger side along with fuel in and fuel out hardlines on the passenger frame rail. Then when it reaches the rear, the brake hardline goes into a splitter on the rear right and then the final longest line goes to the rear left.

So the order is RL, RR, FR, FL On Usdm s13.

FSM MY FRIEND. READ IT.
And if you must know, with ABS it's the same. NOOB! Now you have been enlightened mr. Killer2001, you should go re-bleed your brakes correctly.Dont even start with JDM and RHD when you have much more to learn on USDM grasshopper. ahhaha

http://i392.photobucket.com/albums/pp4/5x114/FSM.jpg

lol wow you're an idiot. you are right but attacking another member here thinking you know better is unnecessary.

im with killer2001 one too, ive been bleeding brakes the way he did and it was fine altogether. you can have the directions but it depends how you bleed the system too. if you cant follow directions from fsm shit is not gonna work too. so theres few things that you can overlook. ive been in s-chassis for a while now and i just recently found out about the brake bleeding order from fsm.

cheers

[Banana_Cute]

Killer is right.

I too bleed my brakes from the farthest to the BMC.

Check if you have a torn boot on all your Brake calipers. Try bleeding the system with the cap off. And also, who ever is pumping your brakes, have them pump it 4-5 times all the way down and release it all the way up, make sure they hold it firm all the way down when you open the release valve on the calipers.

Good luck.

[davidpham]

is there a diy on bleeding master cylinder i cant seem to find any master cylinder bleeder kit anywhere from local auto store

[KiLLeR2001]

Usually when you buy a rebuilt master from the auto store they provide the hardware to bleed it. You might have to shop online for a universal kit that has various different sizes for different BMC's.

If you are going to pull the BMC out and its old you might as well get a freshly rebuilt one, no sense in bench bleeding a BMC thats 20 years old...

[S13teen]

LOL. This attack towards me seems a bit personal. You mad at something?

I made a later post in regards to this same issue shown here...

http://zilvia.net/f/s-chassis/455870-s13-brake-problem.html#post4713801

Now lets get a few things straight... My advice was given based on personal experience. I've been bleeding the brakes on an s-chassis since you were in middle school. I've tried all different combinations and rotations. And I've tried S13/S14 calipers and Z32 calipers. Not only on my vehicle but on my friend's vehicles as well which include over 10 different S13/S14's.

And from what I've discovered, starting with the rears in any order does not matter. You can start from the left or right side with the rears. I prefer starting with right rear. IT DOES NOT MATTER.

The important factors are the front calipers and bleeding the master cylinder. If you haven't bled the master cylinder you need to go back and do that first. Once the master cylinder is bled you can perform the caliper bleeding process. Start with the rears and then move to the fronts.

I've tried doing the LF caliper first before the RF caliper and I ALWAYS, ALWAYS end up having air in the system, or it takes abnormally long time to bleed it all out. But doing RF and then LF calipers it doesn't take long at all, and all the air is bled out correctly.

Now you can kindly recede into the darkness you piece of shit lurker, let me know when you are able to contribute successfully.

edit:



This is your problem, not your bleeding order. Bleed your BMC and then bleed the calipers. RR, LR, RF, LF. Make sure you bleed the BMC properly!!! Don't stop until all air bubbles are gone.

If you still have problems come back to this thread and I will further help you diagnose any braking issues. S13teen however, won't be able to help you with anything.

LOL. Yeah sure buddy. "It's not your firing order, or your head stud tightening order, it doesn't matter" LOL.

It doesn't matter isn't the argument. The correct order is the argument. It may be true that you can bleed it according your method, but you claim the furthest caliper is the RR, which is wrong. And you called me the correctly order, and so I had to PWN you, you tried to correct me on something that was actually correct. So I had to correct you, that's all. It's nothing personal.

You can boast all you want, as owner of over a dozen S13's and 15 years as a Master Technician, I don't have to prove anything but just to educate.

Im may be a dik but I am right, im sorry. I work with .005" tolerances, so a few thousandths off is still considered wrong in my book. =)

[KiLLeR2001]

LOL. Yeah sure buddy. "It's not your firing order, or your head stud tightening order, it doesn't matter" LOL.

It doesn't matter isn't the argument. The correct order is the argument. It may be true that you can bleed it according your method, but you claim the furthest caliper is the RR, which is wrong. And you called me the correctly order, and so I had to PWN you, you tried to correct me on something that was actually correct. So I had to correct you, that's all. It's nothing personal.

You can boast all you want, as owner of over a dozen S13's and 15 years as a Master Technician, I don't have to prove anything but just to educate.

Im may be a dik but I am right, im sorry. I work with .005" tolerances, so a few thousandths off is still considered wrong in my book. =)

S13teen
Leaky Injector

Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: West Adams
Age: 21
Posts: 74
Trader Rating: (5)
Feedback Score: 5 reviews, 100%

I really despise liars.

Also by "furthest" I meant linearly to the BMC, not the length of the lines and how they are routed.

[Banana_Cute]

S13teen
Leaky Injector

Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: West Adams
Age: 21
Posts: 74
Trader Rating: (5)
Feedback Score: 5 reviews, 100%

I really despise liars.

Also by "furthest" I meant linearly to the BMC, not the length of the lines and how they are routed.


LOL.

in that case, Zilvia is run by a 10 yr old.
http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m574/autopartspro/phottttt.jpg
You seriously dont believe that do you? I mean.

[KiLLeR2001]

Judging by his responses I would lean more towards him actually being 21 versus him being a 15 year master technician who deals with .005 tolerances daily. Either way he's lying about something.

[Banana_Cute]

ehh either way, how you do it, if it works.. keep doing it. I mean, i do the same method as you.. never knew that..

w/e though.

[codyace]

WHile the pissing match continues,

lets say the car has a Z31 Master, Z32 Brakes, and Q rear setup? in an S14?

I mean, they all have different procedures...

:D

(just being a wise guy)

[davidpham]

^ i gave myself an F- for not bleeding the master cylinder

[Rut Ro]

Pick up a new BMC. Try again. You'll figure it out.

[davidpham]

Bleed the master cylinder
bleed the brakes again
now it still feels the same, but when i keep pumping the brake nonstop the car feels like its about to die is it because the brake boooster?

theres no leak or anything

[davidpham]

guess imma buy a brand new bmc

[KiLLeR2001]

Bleed the master cylinder
bleed the brakes again
now it still feels the same, but when i keep pumping the brake nonstop the car feels like its about to die is it because the brake boooster?

theres no leak or anything

Check for vacuum leaks. You may also want to check and make sure your one-way valve for the brake booster vacuum hose is working properly and installed correctly.

[S13teen]

S13teen
Leaky Injector

Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: West Adams
Age: 21
Posts: 74
Trader Rating: (5)
Feedback Score: 5 reviews, 100%

I really despise liars.

Also by "furthest" I meant linearly to the BMC, not the length of the lines and how they are routed.


Do you understand English? LINEARLY's base word is LINE. Now "Length of the Line" is what the heck LINEARLY is. Linearly (in hardline), the Lengthiest line is the Rear Left. Im not a Teen nor am I 21 years old.

Distance and relation of the caliper to the BMC isn't relevant, that's not how you determine which one is the furthest. You can't just use distance and a tape measure and say the furthest caliper from the BMC is the one that is "linearly" furthest by relationship to each other,no no no no.....:cj:

Anyway...................


Bleeding your S13 the Correct way:

1.Bench Bleed the Master brake cylinder (On a bench or even installed on the booster)
*Have 3 hardlines with flare nut fittings cut in 3-4" length, install on BMC, and hook up silicone hoses to flow back into the Brake Reservoir.

2. After bench bleeding, you can quickly install the hard lines on your car to your BMC

3. Bleed RL, RR, FR, FL.

4. Have someone PUMP, PUMP, PUMP, HOLD the brake pedal.

5. Open the Nipple(s), let the brake pedal go all the way to the floor. Close Nipple(s).

6. REPEAT on all calipers.

7. Drive around for a while. Repeat bleeding calipers again for Double Assurance.

That's how I do it, and the correct way as from the Factory and millions of other S chassis owners. If you want to do it a different way, it's possible, it's not 100% right but it will work.

[racepar1]

LOL! This is the lamest argument ever! It really doesn't matter what order you bleed the brakes in, ESPECIALLY on a non-ABS car. If you bleed 100 different cars in a sequence other than what the manufacturer reccomends you MIGHT have a problem on one or two of them.

I would suggest that the OP may have a bad master cylinder. When the brakes get soft does the pedal get higher when you pump it? If so then it's the master cylinder most likely.

[datsunnazi]

My brakes did the same thing when I had the Q45 calipers up front and a stock 7/8" master cylinder even after pressure bleeding the system from the master cylinder with the brake bleed machine at work. I changed the master cylinder to a 1989 15/16" Z31 300ZX Turbo Master Cylinder (direct bolt-in installation) and the problem went away. i found that the stock master for some reason does not "flow" enough to keep the Q45 brakes "pumped up". I would recommend an upgrade in the master cylinder to keep up with the extra fluid demands that the Q45 calipers have.

see here:

master cylinder swap - The Definitive 300ZX Brake Swap Paqe (http://importnut.net/300zxbrakeswap.htm#MC)
part numbers - The Definitive 300ZX Brake Swap Paqe (http://importnut.net/300zxbrakeswap.htm#partnumber)

[S13teen]

A 1" or a 17/16 is ideal for upgrade.

BM50 or BM57 would be sufficient. With a BM57 I'd recommend the Z32 booster as well. Im running a 4WS Dual Diaphram Z32 booster and z32 master on my Datsun and it's amazing.

[KiLLeR2001]

Im not a Teen nor am I 21 years old.

I know, I've already established you're a liar. Why would anyone listen to a liar, especially when it involves their braking system?

Don't bother responding because I won't be replying to you anymore.

LOL! This is the lamest argument ever! It really doesn't matter what order you bleed the brakes in, ESPECIALLY on a non-ABS car. If you bleed 100 different cars in a sequence other than what the manufacturer reccomends you MIGHT have a problem on one or two of them.

I would suggest that the OP may have a bad master cylinder. When the brakes get soft does the pedal get higher when you pump it? If so then it's the master cylinder most likely.

Agreed. He's obviously trolling at this point. Probably has a hard on for me. This guy never posts in the tech section then he wants to come out of left field to "own" me. LOL. Anyways.

[racepar1]

My brakes did the same thing when I had the Q45 calipers up front and a stock 7/8" master cylinder even after pressure bleeding the system from the master cylinder with the brake bleed machine at work. I changed the master cylinder to a 1989 15/16" Z31 300ZX Turbo Master Cylinder (direct bolt-in installation) and the problem went away. i found that the stock master for some reason does not "flow" enough to keep the Q45 brakes "pumped up". I would recommend an upgrade in the master cylinder to keep up with the extra fluid demands that the Q45 calipers have.

see here:

master cylinder swap - The Definitive 300ZX Brake Swap Paqe (http://importnut.net/300zxbrakeswap.htm#MC)
part numbers - The Definitive 300ZX Brake Swap Paqe (http://importnut.net/300zxbrakeswap.htm#partnumber)

:werd:

I was also suspecting that he had the 7/8" master, which would cause a low pedal.

[datsunnazi]

:werd:

I was also suspecting that he had the 7/8" master, which would cause a low pedal.

most definitely

[S13teen]

Powned! Brake issue solved! FTWin Next.

[davidpham]

yeah i was looking up to buy a z32 master cylinder anyways just for the hell of it. is there a specified brand that i need to buy? or they all same thing i was thinking of autozone for like 30bucks but what u guys think?

[datsunnazi]

yeah i was looking up to buy a z32 master cylinder anyways just for the hell of it. is there a specified brand that i need to buy? or they all same thing i was thinking of autozone for like 30bucks but what u guys think?

that is where I got mine. I just took my old one in as a core. I got the lifetime warranty one as well. :bigok:

[davidpham]

coool beans! thanks :)