Team Zimmerman Vs Team Martin?

[TheWolf]

If you haven't heard. Florida has done it again.

Depending on which side you're on.

Team Zimmerman:

Neighborhood watch captain patrols at night. See's "shady" looking black kid in a hoodie being suspicious and checking out cars. Calls 911. Police will be there in whenever. Confronts kid. Gets in a struggle. Shoots kid. Sanford police investigate, declare self defense. No arrest.

Team Martin:
Black kid dating girl in neighborhood. Going out to the corner store. Just minding my own business. Over aggressive racially motivated captain shoots kid for just looking shady. No struggle happened. I was just minding my own business. Sanford police are liars. Zimmerman should get the chair for a hate crime against my innocent kid. It was a racially motivated hit on my son.

Team Media:
White guy shoots black guy must be racially motivated (white guy is actually hispanic but I guess they count as white now)
Florida allows people under their "no retreat/stand your ground" gun law to go around indiscriminately killing people.
"Obama should intervene." Sends justice department advisor down instead.


Facts.
Police arrived on the scene. Found Zimmerman with a busted nose and a cut on the back of his head. Martin dead with a shot at close range.
Zimmerman disobeyed a 911 operator and pursued Martin.
Zimmerman called Martin a "f87kin Coon" on 911 tape.
Neighborhood was a gated condo complex. 21 car break-in's since jan.
Martins girlfriend claims she "heard" him shoved while on the phone with him.
Neighbor claims she "heard" zimmerman on top of martin. One of them yelled for help.

[ESmorz]

ylY9wlnTdlw

[harrypotter]

I am lost, what is the point?

[KiLLeR2001]

Never heard of a Hispanic Zimmerman, usually German/Jewish.

Either way, don't know what to think of this story. I have a hard time believing someone shooting a kid unless they felt like their life was in danger. Either way, the media will twist this as they see fit. Most likely into the realm of blatant hate crime.

[ESmorz]

Never heard of a Hispanic Zimmerman, usually German/Jewish.

Either way, don't know what to think of this story. I have a hard time believing someone shooting a kid unless they felt like their life was in danger. Either way, the media will twist this as they see fit. Most likely into the realm of blatant hate crime.

No twisting needed, the evidence is there and you can hear it for yourself. (Evil Media blah blah)

Even if Trayvon did partake in and win the scuffle, if you were just minding your own business eating skittles and drinking iced tea and some guy started following you and then tried to physically detain you would you not try to incapacitate him and get away? Then the guy pulls out a gun and you beg for your life and he kills you.

You pretty much have to be a piece of shit to think this guy was in the right at all. There's little to no gray area here, and the fact that the Sanford PD hasn't done shit and actually delayed evidence is a travesty.

[KiLLeR2001]

I'm not taking sides. There's a lot of things that can happen and its all a lot of he said / she said as of right now. But from the looks of Zimmerman's past, he seems a bit unstable.

[nomoremk2]

What's there to debate? This should and probably will be debated in a court room.

[Phlip]

What's there to debate? This should and probably will be debated in a court room.

The debate (well not debate, but uproar) is that authorities have YET to bring charges or even approach this as if there should be.

[redline racer510]

The debate (well not debate, but uproar) is that authorities have YET to bring charges or even approach this as if there should be.
Maybe because there is a lack of evidence. You can't arrest someone based off of low quality telephone recording and if there is witnesses how come we haven't see or heard from any of them. Sounds like there using the recordings to make it seem like a hate crime when it could have been some other noise that sounds like he said the alleged hate words. You have to look at this from both sides. Just because the victim was killed does not make him any less guilty.

[Phlip]

Maybe because there is a lack of evidence. You can't arrest someone based off of low quality telephone recording and if there is witnesses how come we haven't see or heard from any of them. Sounds like there using the recordings to make it seem like a hate crime when it could have been some other noise that sounds like he said the alleged hate words. You have to look at this from both sides. Just because the victim was killed does not make him any less guilty.

The claim is that they refused to take the full statements of witnesses, and pressured neighbors to side with the shooter's claim of self-defense.
Sanford police have a history of fucking these kinds of investigations and seem to be trying to sweep this one under the rug instead of giving it the attention it deserves.
The “damned coons get away with everything” comment is why many people DEMAND that this get more attention, suggestive even that this should be handled as a federal hate crime, and not something to be weaseled out of with minor loopholes.

[SimpleS14]

Ugh, it's very disheartening that they are not taking full statements and the guy still didn't get indicted.

[Phlip]

Then the police chief steps down:

U.S. News - Police chief steps down temporarily over handling of Trayvon Martin case (http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/22/10808864-police-chief-steps-down-temporarily-over-handling-of-trayvon-martin-case)

[TheWolf]

The claim is that they refused to take the full statements of witnesses, and pressured neighbors to side with the shooter's claim of self-defense.
Sanford police have a history of fucking these kinds of investigations and seem to be trying to sweep this one under the rug instead of giving it the attention it deserves.
The “damned coons get away with everything” comment is why many people DEMAND that this get more attention, suggestive even that this should be handled as a federal hate crime, and not something to be weaseled out of with minor loopholes.

The only "witness" I've heard about is one that she says she "heard" zimmerman on top of martin.

I don't know how strong of a witness that is. Being on the phone with someone and then "hearing them get pushed" and the phone going dead doesn't really inspire confidence in the "without a reasonable doubt" part of the court case.

With all the drama this case has generated, you better have an airtight case against the guy.

[imotion s14]

Never heard of a Hispanic Zimmerman, usually German/Jewish.

Selma Hayek? Vincente Fox? You ever seen what people look like in Argentina and Uraguay? Hispanic isn't a race or a nationality, just like Latin doesn't mean you're Spanish speaking and brown. :lol

[KiLLeR2001]

Sanford Police Speak Out In Trayvon Martin Case - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/video/orlandowesh-16122564/sanford-police-speak-out-in-trayvon-martin-case-28640523.html)

More details, apparently Martin attacked Zimmerman after Zimmerman decided to follow him, the screams for help were from Zimmerman, Martin's own father said the screams for help were not from his son.

[Matej]

In my opinion both sides are at fault. In the end, the outcome was just a matter of who had a gun. Although this story would never make national news if it was the kid who shot the guy.

I imagine the guy automatically assumed the kid was up to no good and confronted him, and instead of explaining his situation the kid probably started mouthing off and growing aggressive, and from there it could only go downhill.

Whether the kid really was doing something suspicious or just happened to be walking down the street would play an important role, but I doubt that can ever be established without reliable witnesses.

[Corbic]

Whether the kid really was doing something suspicious or just happened to be walking down the street would play an important role, but I doubt that can ever be established without reliable witnesses.

This was not a clean shoot.

The problem is Zimmerman was "neighborhood watch" not "neighborhood confront". He called the police, they told him to go home and they would look into it.

Since the kid had actually done nothing (yet) and Zimmerman had no idea who he was and what not.

You can't call someone a horses ass in a bar and when he stands up shoot him because "self defense". That is what Zimmerman did. He put himself in a conflict situation (confronting the kid) and them used deadly force when (surprise) conflict happened.

Manslaughter, reckless endangerment ect. I don't think Zimmerman intended to hurt or kill the kid, but that doesn't mean he has the right to turn his brain off.

[S14DB]

Geraldo Rivera: Trayvon Martin's 'Hoodie Is As Much Responsible For [His] Death As George Zimmerman' (VIDEO) (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/23/geraldo-rivera-trayvon-martin-hoodie_n_1375080.html)

It's the Hoodie's fault!

[Highway Riding]

If Zimmerman doesn't get charged soon somehow game over. As of now Under Florida's law no crime has been committed and that in itself is the problem. Guy seemed like a loose cannon and someone was bound to get shot by him.

[Corbic]

If Zimmerman doesn't get charged soon somehow game over. As of now Under Florida's law no crime has been committed and that in itself is the problem. Guy seemed like a loose cannon and someone was bound to get shot by him.

You realize there is no statute of limitations for homicide, right?

This is what is pissing me off. Everyone is screaming "ARREST HIM" like some-sort of idiotic lynch mob.

The kid is dead. Nothing is brining him back. Zimmerman is not going anywhere. Chill the fuck out, calm the fuck down.

Would you not rather see a calm, logical trial with a unbiased jury or do you want some lunacy with charges of Hate-Crimes and 1st Degree Murder and have the guy acquitted because its bullshit?

Where was all the outrage with Casey Anthony?

[nomoremk2]

I can't believe the statement, "I urge black and Latino parents to not let their kids go out wearing hoodies." what the hell is wrong with these people.

[HyperTek]

People are lying in this case, those for Zimmerman.

If the fucktard listened to police and let them handle it, all would have been well, but he thought he would be superman and see whats up. When ever did someone "acting suspicious" be warrant to investigate for no random reason?

As it turns out he was visiting the area so maybe he was walking around looking at everything to try to go back to the house he was visiting.. while talking on the phone to his girlfriend. His girlfriend telling him to run after seeing this strange guy following him.

Remember that one case of the college student who commited suicide, and they are still investigating that case on who teased him, if they can look into that, i don't see why this can't be further investigated.

[sky53line]

Neighborhood Watch Movie Trailer - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2X-R_PR6xs)

[S14DB]

If Zimmerman doesn't get charged soon somehow game over. As of now Under Florida's law no crime has been committed and that in itself is the problem. Guy seemed like a loose cannon and someone was bound to get shot by him.
"You cannot provoke the confrontation. You cannot be the instigator and then claim 'stand your ground,' Sundby said.
George Zimmerman Unprotected By Self-Defense Law in Trayvon Martin Killing, Florida Lawmakers Say (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/21/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-_n_1371171.html)

[TheWolf]

"More than 1.5 million people have signed Tracy Martin and Sybrina Fulton's petition demanding that their son's confessed killer be arrested. A federal investigation has been announced. Thousands have rallied and marched around the country. Every major news outlet in America has covered his story. President Obama even spoke to the tragedy of Trayvon's senseless death: "If I had a son," said the president, "he'd look like Trayvon."

But one thing still hasn't happened -- Trayvon's killer still has not been brought to justice."


My question is, if we have a million people sign a petition and hold some rally's can we get anyone we want arrested?

[theicecreamdan]

Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes :->2011->Chapter 776 : Online Sunshine (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0776/0776ContentsIndex.html&StatuteYear=2011&Title=-%3E2011-%3EChapter%20776)

[jvsc91talon]

Even if this kid was breaking into someones car, the punishment for theft isnt death by a superhero watchman with a gun. He didnt even know what the kid was doing. He just assumed by the comments he made that a black kid in a hoodie is suspect enough to confront him. Defending yourself doesnt mean engage someone who you think might be doing something and shoot him when he fights you. He should have left it to the cops. Even if he was right about his judgement and just called the cops and went home, someone would just have to deal with a stolen radio or at worst a stolen car. But now a mother and a father have to deal with the loss of an innocent child by a racist superhero.

[HyperTek]

Im going to assume that Zimmerman probably did not identify himself to Treyvon as the nieghborhood watchman. He probably just followed him and pressured him.. Treyvon not knowing who the hell this guy is and why he is pressuring him, probably reacted to him, like Zimmerman maybe reaching for his bag and perhaps pushed him back, than zimmerman thinking to be a superhero pulling his gun out and blasting.

[imotion s14]

Anyone know why this angel was suspended from school for 5 days?

[theicecreamdan]

That's not really anybody's business

[Corbic]

My question is, if we have a million people sign a petition and hold some rally's can we get anyone we want arrested?

Sounds like it. Can we start one to arrest Obama on War Crimes for murdering 16 year olds?

Both are US Citizen btw, so does that mean if you leave the US the Government can kill you for whatever reason they want?

Anwar al-Awlaki’s family speaks out against his, son’s deaths - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/anwar-al-awlakis-family-speaks-out-against-his-sons-deaths/2011/10/17/gIQA8kFssL_story.html)

With Death of Anwar al-Awlaki, Has U.S. Launched New Era of Killing U.S. Citizens Without Charge? (http://www.democracynow.org/2011/9/30/with_death_of_anwar_al_awlaki)



I'm all for killing terrorists and what not - but this does not sit well with me. I better shut up though, who knows, next time I go to Canada they might drone me for complaining to much.

[tech_45]

you're right we should have sent more soldiers over there to potentially die for some asshole, good call.

[Corbic]

you're right we should have sent more soldiers over there to potentially die for some asshole, good call.

Over where? WTF are you babbling about?

[HyperTek]

hey turds thanks for changing the topic towards a hate obama thread.

What Everyone Should Know About Trayvon Martin (1995-2012) | ThinkProgress (http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/03/18/446768/what-everyone-should-know-about-about-trayvon-martin-1995-2012/?mobile=nc)

1. Zimmerman called the police to report Martin’s “suspicious” behavior, which he described as “just walking around looking about.” Zimmerman was in his car when he saw Martin walking on the street. He called the police and said: “There’s a real suspicious guy. This guy looks like he’s up to no good, on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around looking about… These a**holes always get away” [Orlando Sentinel]
2. Zimmerman pursued Martin against the explicit instructions of the police dispatcher:
Dispatcher: “Are you following him?”
Zimmerman: “Yeah”
Dispatcher: “OK, we don’t need you to do that.”
[Orlando Sentinel]
3. Prior to the release of the 911 tapes, Zimmerman’s father released a statement claiming “[a]t no time did George follow or confront Mr. Martin.” [Sun Sentinel]
4. Zimmerman was carrying a 9 millimeter handgun. Martin was carrying a bag of Skittles and a can of iced tea. [ABC News]
5. Martin weighed 140 pounds. Zimmerman weighs 250 pounds. [Orlando Sentinel; WDBO]
6. Martin’s English teacher described him “as an A and B student who majored in cheerfulness.” [Orlando Sentinel]
7. Martin had no criminal record. [New York Times]
8. Zimmerman “was charged in July 2005 with resisting arrest with violence and battery on an officer. The charges appear to have been dropped.” [Huffington Post]
9. Zimmerman called the police 46 times since Jan. 1, 2011. [Miami Herald]
10. According to neighbors, Zimmerman was “fixated on crime and focused on young, black males.” [Miami Herald]
11. Zimmerman “had been the subject of complaints by neighbors in his gated community for aggressive tactics” [Huffington Post]
12. A police officer “corrected” a key witness. “The officer told the witness, a long-time teacher, it was Zimmerman who cried for help, said the witness. ABC News has spoken to the teacher and she confirmed that the officer corrected her when she said she heard the teenager shout for help.” [ABC News]
13. Three witnesses say they heard a boy cry for help before a shot was fired. “Three witnesses contacted by The Miami Herald say they saw or heard the moments before and after the Miami Gardens teenager’s killing. All three said they heard the last howl for help from a despondent boy.” [Miami Herald]
14. The officer in charge of the crime scene also received criticism in 2010 when he initially failed to arrest a lieutenant’s son who was videotaped attacking a homeless black man. [New York Times]
15. The police did not test Zimmerman for drugs or alcohol. A law enforcement expert told ABC that Zimmerman sounds intoxicated on the 911 tapes. Drug and alcohol testing is “standard procedure in most homicide investigations.” [ABC News]
16. In a cell phone call moments before his death, Martin told a teenage girl that he was “hounded by a strange man on a cellphone who ran after him, cornered him and confronted him.” “‘He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man,’ Martin’s friend said. ‘I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run.’ Eventually he would run, said the girl, thinking that he’d managed to escape. But suddenly the strange man was back, cornering Martin. ‘Trayvon said, ‘What, are you following me for,’ and the man said, ‘What are you doing here.’” [ABC News]
17. Police have Trayvon Martin’s cell phone but never contacted his girlfriend. [Miami Herald]
18. Zimmerman told the police “he had stepped out of his truck to check the name of the street he was on when Trayvon attacked him from behind as he walked back to his truck.” “He said he feared for his life and fired the semiautomatic handgun he was licensed to carry because he feared for his life.” [Miami Herald]
19. The incident occurred in a tiny gated community Zimmerman patrolled regularly. [Miami Herald]
20. Zimmerman was not a member of a registered Neighborhood Watch group. Zimmerman also violated basic Neighborhood Watch guidelines by carrying a weapon. [ABC News]
21. The police reports were amended to bolster Zimmerman’s claim of self defense. “Initial police reports never mentioned that Zimmerman had a bloody nose or a wet shirt that showed evidence of a struggle.” [Miami Herald]
22. Police ignored witness whose account was different from Zimmerman’s.“One of the witnesses who heard the crying said she called a detective repeatedly, but said he was not interested because her account differed from Zimmerman’s.” [Miami Herald]
23. Just prior to killing Martin, Zimmerman may have used a racial slur. The police admit they initially overlooked the remark. It’s unclear exactly what Zimmerman is saying. [ABC News]
24. Zimmerman still has a permit to carry a concealed weapon in the State of Florida. [ThinkProgress]
25. In April 2011, Zimmerman called the police to report a suspicious black male, “7-9″ years old, “skinny build.” [Daily Beast]
26. Zimmerman’s friend, Frank Taaffe, says Martin was shot because he wasn’t “honest and truthful” with Zimmerman. NBC News reported that Zimmerman called Taaffe to thank him for his support. [Huffington Post; MSNBC]

Zimmerman was a nutcase, don't know why anyone would side with his thoughts.

[Highway Riding]

George Zimmerman Unprotected By Self-Defense Law in Trayvon Martin Killing, Florida Lawmakers Say (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/21/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-_n_1371171.html)

Interesting!

[Corbic]

hey turds thanks for changing the topic towards a hate obama thread.

Zimmerman was a nutcase, don't know why anyone would side with his thoughts.

I don't think anyone has sided with Zimmerman. The question was posed should police arrest and jail you based on petitions and public opinion.

Second, the sources of your information are questionable and agenda driven.

Example: you state Zimmy called the police 11 times in 3 months - as if it shows he is bad. Ever think this shows he is just doing his "job" as the watchmen? Maybe this is why he ignored the request to break off pursuit. Maybe that's how it always goes "okay we'll look into it" and they never do, thus he now feels its up to him.

If he's had so much contact with him, and there are complaints, why are the cops not looking into this "loose cannon"?

Lastly, none of this answers what the kid was doing there in the first place. As my old man always says "nothing good happens after midnight".

[imotion s14]

And I like how the media describes these 2 individuals to paint a picture of Zimmerman being the "man" and Martin being the "boy". The picture they're trying to paint is clear, a man saw a boy as a threat. How can a "boy" be a threat? Of course no one mentions this "boy" is 6'3" and the "man" is 5'9".

He was an athlete. According to Zimmerman's account, he gave chase but gave up and was returning to the truck when he was attacked.

What's more plausible? He got cornered and had to fight back or he doubled-backed after out running his overweight pursuer to instigate an attack? He could have ran away, he obviously faster! He wanted to get even with Zimmerman and he got a Nineto the chest for his effort.

Case closed.

Oh and I like how they bring up a charge that was drop as if it means anything. Anyone whoever has a run in with a power-tripping cop will know they can trump up charges at a whim. Getting cuffed and pulling away = resisting arrest. Bumping into a cop = battery. If they had a case then why was the charges dropped?

[tricky_ab]

Perception or not when someone is shot to death a proper investigation should be carried out. The fact that the police dept. decided to drug test the dead black kid instead of the man that murdered him tells me something. The fact that the police dept. decided to run a background check on the dead black kid instead of the man that murdered him tells me more. The fact that the police don't even arrest the man tells me all I need to know.

If their ethnic background were reversed is there ANYONE in this thread that has any doubt that dude would have been locked up by that police dept. from the start? Anyone?

Trevor Dooley tried that bullshit and didn't get away without a fucking trial.... (http://www.ksdk.com/news/world/article/311679/28/Widow-says-Floridas-Stand-Your-Ground-law-is-free-pass-for-murder)funny how that works...

[HyperTek]

well people want an example made out of this,, because right now it is looking like this guy killed a black teen and got away with it by claiming his right to self defense when he picked the fight in the first place.

I like how people are saying Martin was no angel, just read he was suspended from school for being found with an empty bag of weed, still whatever actions he done as a teenager (as most teenagers do these days) does not warrant being murdered imo.

[imotion s14]

Perception or not when someone is shot to death a proper investigation should be carried out. The fact that the police dept. decided to drug test the dead black kid instead of the man that murdered him tells me something. The fact that the police dept. decided to run a background check on the dead black kid instead of the man that murdered him tells me more. The fact that the police don't even arrest the man tells me all I need to know.

If their ethnic background were reversed is there ANYONE in this thread that has any doubt that dude would have been locked up by that police dept. from the start? Anyone?

Trevor Dooley tried that bullshit and didn't get away without a fucking trial.... (http://www.ksdk.com/news/world/article/311679/28/Widow-says-Floridas-Stand-Your-Ground-law-is-free-pass-for-murder)funny how that works...

That dude comes to a park full of kids, brandishes a gun in broad daylight. The guy reacts to seeing a gun being pulled out for no reason. What plausible reason did he have to brandish it in the first place? Maybe if the guy had lunged at him BEFORE he brandished it then his claim of self-defense would be 100% valid. But that didn't happened. What happened is he yelled at a teenager, the victim stood up to defend him and the guy gets mad comes to a park with a gun to confront him. They have words and brandishes his weapon and the guy seeing that reacts and he shoots him for reacting?

Yeah dude. TOTALLY the same. :lol

[HyperTek]

That dude comes to a park full of kids, brandishes a gun in broad daylight. The guy reacts to seeing a gun being pulled out for no reason. What plausible reason did he have to brandish it in the first place? Maybe if the guy had lunged at him BEFORE he brandished it then his claim of self-defense would be 100% valid. But that didn't happened. What happened is he yelled at a teenager, the victim stood up to defend him and the guy gets mad comes to a park with a gun to confront him. They have words and brandishes his weapon and the guy seeing that reacts and he shoots him for reacting?

Yeah dude. TOTALLY the same. :lol

doesn't matter, the guy claimed he shot in self defense and got arrested and trial. George Zimmerman started a conflict and shot, and got away free and there are reports of the police trying to cover it up /not investigate the situation further etc.

[imotion s14]

well people want an example made out of this,, because right now it is looking like this guy killed a black teen and got away with it by claiming his right to self defense when he picked the fight in the first place.

I like how people are saying Martin was no angel, just read he was suspended from school for being found with an empty bag of weed, still whatever actions he done as a teenager (as most teenagers do these days) does not warrant being murdered imo.

He claimed Martin ran and he gave up.

Twin Trees Ln, Sanford, Seminole, Florida 32771

That's the alley way. No possible way for Zimmerman to "corner" Martin.

According to Zimmerman he was attacked from behind. His avenue of escape from what he rightfully perceived as a stranger following him was clear. There was no way that Zimmerman could catch him. The only plausible explanation is for whatever reason, at that point it was Martin who initiated physical contact.

He wasn't murdered. He wasn't killed because he got suspended for weed. He was killed because HE initiated force with someone who happened to be armed. Following someone isn't a crime nor does it imply hostility, or an act of aggression. Especially when you're volunteering to be neighborhood patrol.

[imotion s14]

doesn't matter, the guy claimed he shot in self defense and got arrested and trial. George Zimmerman started a conflict and shot, and got away free and there are reports of the police trying to cover it up /not investigate the situation further etc.

Of course it doesn't matter. Details don't matter. Maybe to you but then again you're not exactly a shining beacon of logic.

He can claim anything he wants, the police determined otherwise based on eyewitness accounts.

Because brandishing a gun doesn't imply force at all.

Comparing someone who goes to a park with a gun, pulls it out first with no justified reason and then shoots the guy as he reacts to that.

Following someone = starting a conflict.

Laughable. :lol

[db_s13]

He claimed Martin ran and he gave up.

Twin Trees Ln, Sanford, Seminole, Florida 32771

That's the alley way. No possible way for Zimmerman to "corner" Martin.

According to Zimmerman he was attacked from behind. His avenue of escape from what he rightfully perceived as a stranger following him was clear. There was no way that Zimmerman could catch him. The only plausible explanation is for whatever reason, at that point it was Martin who initiated physical contact.

He wasn't murdered. He wasn't killed because he got suspended for weed. He was killed because HE initiated force with someone who happened to be armed. Following someone isn't a crime nor does it imply hostility, or an act of aggression. Especially when you're volunteering to be neighborhood patrol.

so because zimmerman says thats what happened and he killed the only other person that truly knows what happened makes it the truth?

hypertek is going off the principle of the matter so the details dont matter... he claimed self defense but still was arrested and put on trial

and who the fuck calls the police on a 7-9 year old

[tricky_ab]

Of course it doesn't matter. Details don't matter. Maybe to you but then again you're not exactly a shining beacon of logic.

He can claim anything he wants, the police determined otherwise based on eyewitness accounts.

Because brandishing a gun doesn't imply force at all.

Comparing someone who goes to a park with a gun, pulls it out first with no justified reason and then shoots the guy as he reacts to that.

Following someone = starting a conflict.

Laughable. :lol

He stalked martin and when martin got scared and started running, he got out of the car and went after him. It's all on the 911 tapes. If you're going to say that is not reasonable belief someone is about to use unlawful force, then I've got nothing else to say.

I guess if a woman is being chased down a dark alley by a man, she shouldn't do anything until he begins to try and rape her right?

[murda-c]

Apparently there's another witness who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman?

[tricky_ab]

Apparently there's another witness who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman?

Yeah and it was his friend...The new facts are irrelevant to the case. They are character assassination techniques used to paint the situation as anything but black and white but the fact of the matter is, it actually "is" pretty black and white this time as far as the case goes. It doesn't matter what type of character Trayvon Martin is or was, what matters is the actions that lead up to the confrontation; in that light Zimmerman got out of his car after he was explicitly told not to (By the police!) and his resulting actions lead to the death of someone who had every right to be in that neighborhood and as far as we can see was doing nothing wrong. He is guilty of minimum manslaughter charges.

[Corbic]

He is guilty of minimum manslaughter charges.

Agreed, it's called "Observe and Report".

He should have just been writing down and even photographing what he saw. That way, if a car ends up being broken into the Cops can track down the perp with that information.

What was Zimmerman's plan, to pin the kid down, call the cops and wait for them to arrive and arrest the kid for.... wrong place, wrong time?

Sounds like Zimmerman would have been in more trouble with physically restraining someone.


Like I've said before, I think the case is simple Manslaughter, the entire situation was created by Zimmerman and could have been avoided by him. I just get disgruntled at seeing the media try and turn this into a modern lynching with petitions and accusations of "hate crimes" and "premeditated murder" as well as attacks on self-defense laws and gun ownership.

[S14DB]

He was killed because HE initiated force with someone who happened to be armed. Following someone isn't a crime nor does it imply hostility, or an act of aggression. Especially when you're volunteering to be neighborhood patrol.
Following someone can be seen as Harassment or Intimidation. You follow me to long and I'll disappear and then you'll be eating the ground.

Neighborhood watch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighborhood_watch)
Neighborhood watches are not vigilante organizations. When suspecting criminal activities, members are encouraged to contact authorities and not to intervene.

That is if he wasn't volunteering for his own made up group. He was driving home from the store and saw him. Not even on "watch".

[imotion s14]

And since you keep bring up idiotic arguments in regards to the black guy who shot the white guy. Here's the letter of the law and the sub-sections that pertain to why he was arrested and tried.

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.--

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force... As used in this subsection, the term "criminal prosecution" includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.

(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.

Florida is not an open-carry state. Even if it was, "carrying" and brandishing are completely different. By brandishing his weapon he committed an unlawful act since Florida is a conceal-carry state. His gun came out first.
He has no justifiable reason whatsoever to reach for his pistol first.

790.10 Improper exhibition of dangerous weapons or firearms.—If any person having or carrying any dirk, sword, sword cane, firearm, electric weapon or device, or other weapon shall, in the presence of one or more persons, exhibit the same in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense, the person so offending shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

Zimmerman/Martin; a physical altercation happened and the gun came out after the fact.

That's the difference.

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.--The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or

(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

so because zimmerman says thats what happened and he killed the only other person that truly knows what happened makes it the truth?

Stinque » New Witness is Old Witness Who Saw Part of Fight But Didn’t See Start of Fight (http://www.stinque.com/2012/03/24/new-witness-is-old-witness-who-saw-part-of-fight-but-didnt-see-start-of-fight/)

next??

[tricky_ab]

Stop this silly argument:

"As the prime sponsor of this legislation in the Florida House, I'd like to clarify that this law does not seem to be applicable to the tragedy that happened in Sanford. There is nothing in the castle doctrine as found in Florida statutes that authenticates or provides for the opportunity to pursue and confront individuals, it simply protects those who would be potential victims by allowing for force to be used in self-defense."

"Mr. Zimmerman's unnecessary pursuit and confrontation of Trayvon Martin elevated the prospect of a violent episode and does not seem to be an act of self-defense as defined by the castle doctrine. There is no protection in the "Stand Your Ground" law for anyone who pursues and confronts people."

- Rep. Dennis Baxley was the author of Florida's law Castle Doctrine.

You can't provoke and shoot people then claim self defense. Why is this arguable..

[imotion s14]

Stop this silly argument:

"As the prime sponsor of this legislation in the Florida House, I'd like to clarify that this law does not seem to be applicable to the tragedy that happened in Sanford. There is nothing in the castle doctrine as found in Florida statutes that authenticates or provides for the opportunity to pursue and confront individuals, it simply protects those who would be potential victims by allowing for force to be used in self-defense."

"Mr. Zimmerman's unnecessary pursuit and confrontation of Trayvon Martin elevated the prospect of a violent episode and does not seem to be an act of self-defense as defined by the castle doctrine. There is no protection in the "Stand Your Ground" law for anyone who pursues and confronts people."

- Rep. Dennis Baxley was the author of Florida's law Castle Doctrine.

You can't provoke and shoot people then claim self defense. Why is this arguable..

Too bad it has nothing to do with castle doctrine, the law in question is "stand your ground".

Oh and..

Meanwhile, Angela Corey, the special prosecutor assigned to the case, told ABC News that means "the state must go forward and be able to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt. ... So it makes the case in general more difficult than a normal criminal case."

Basically they have nothing.

Grand Jury acquittal.

Next!

[KiLLeR2001]

What if Martin attempted to reach for Zimmerman's gun, does that change the outcome at all? :foodforthought:

[db_s13]

And since you keep bring up idiotic arguments in regards to the black guy who shot the white guy. Here's the letter of the law and the sub-sections that pertain to why he was arrested and tried.



Florida is not an open-carry state. Even if it was, "carrying" and brandishing are completely different. By brandishing his weapon he committed an unlawful act since Florida is a conceal-carry state. His gun came out first.
He has no justifiable reason whatsoever to reach for his pistol first.



Zimmerman/Martin; a physical altercation happened and the gun came out after the fact.

That's the difference.




Stinque » New Witness is Old Witness Who Saw Part of Fight But Didn’t See Start of Fight (http://www.stinque.com/2012/03/24/new-witness-is-old-witness-who-saw-part-of-fight-but-didnt-see-start-of-fight/)

next??

i was talking about how the altercation started... just because he was seen "winning" the fight doesnt mean he started it

if this was your kid would you be OK with the outcome so far?

[tricky_ab]

Interesting comment from this currently front-page thread on Reddit (http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/r2ezn/go_get_skittles_for_your_brother_end_up_dead_the/):

Criminal defense attorney here practicing in Florida. This article is upsetting. I apologize for sounding smug but I have been following this story very carefully and it is disappointing when legal analysis is done by a non-attorney (at least I hope the author is not an attorney), especially when they are not familiar with all the laws or case law precedent in the jurisdiction since it almost always leads to the reader being misled, misinformed, or not knowing entirely everything they should know. I have been analyzing this case from its inception and have put myself in the shoes of the prosecution as to the best strategy to put Zimmerman behind bars if it gets to that point, which I hope it does.

If Zimmerman is ever charged, and a plea deal is not reached and Zimmerman proceeds to trial, he will obviously rely on self-defense. The article does a decent job of discussing this and the reasonableness standard. However, what is not discussed is that any decent Florida prosecutor will file a pre-trial motion, motion in limine, to prevent the defense from asserting self-defense during the trial. If this motion is won by the prosecution, then it will be game over for Zimmerman since his attorney will not be able to bring up self-defense to the jury throughout the entire trial and he will have zero defense.

The prosecution will site to Florida Statute § 776.041 (2012), which states that the initial aggressor is precluded from asserting self-defense where he is the individual who provoked the use of force contemporaneously to the actions of the victim to which the defendant claims self-defense. (See also Martinez v. State, 981 So. 2d 449 (Fla. 2008); Marshall v. State, 604 So. 2d 799, 803 (Fla. 1992)).

Essentially, the prosecution must convince the judge in the pre-trial motion, through testimony and evidence, that Zimmerman created the need to use self-defense, therefore, he cannot assert self-defense pursuant to Fla. Stat. § 776.041 (2012). The prosecution will point to the obvious evidence such as Trayvon was not doing anything wrong, he had only a bag of skittles and a drink on him, the 911 dispatcher told Zimmerman twice not to engage Trayvon, etc. Zimmerman created the need for the self-defense. Zimmerman had been watching Trayvon for some time while he was walking, Zimmerman approached him, Zimmerman more than likely placed his hand on him, thus creating a battery. What else would this seventeen year old kid be thinking? He was probably thinking Zimmerman wanted to hurt him or kidnap him. Zimmerman was not entitled to make a citizen’s arrest of Trayvon since Florida allows for private citizens to make a citizen’s arrest only if the person arrested has committed a felony in their presence. Phoenix v. State, 455 So. 2d 1024 (Fla. 1984). Obviously, that is not applicable here. If for some reason the judge denies this motion, then this argument can still be argued to the jury.

I have practiced out of Tallahassee, Orlando, and Tampa. This happens much too often. I am just glad this case is getting the publicity it needs to assist in ending this behavior. The behavior I am referring to is both the behavior of Zimmerman and the behavior of law enforcement.Go Get Skittles for Your Brother, End Up Dead: The Killing of Trayvon Martin and Who's Getting Away With It and Why : politics (http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/r2ezn/go_get_skittles_for_your_brother_end_up_dead_the/)


Anyways...

Chapter 776 JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE - Florida Statutes (http://statutes.laws.com/florida/TitleXLVI/chapter776)

with special attention here:
776.041 Use of force by aggressor.

The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or

(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.No way he will get to claim self-defense in a trial. No way in hell. Justified use of force defense will NOT be available to him. Every reasonable means would have been:

-Not to approach him in the first place
-Don't enter into physical range if you wanted to speak to him
-Don't get out of your car
-Withdraw when the conversation got heated.
-Obey the 911 operator to NOT follow him.

[redline racer510]

I honestly think Zimmerman was trying to be a hero by trying to confront Trayvon, it got physical, Zimmerman got a ass whooping and tried to get away. Trayvon than ran after Zimmerman, Zimmerman pulled the gun out and both men started fighting over gun, gun was fired killing Trayvon, end of story. As for the police ignoring the investigation show me some proof. Law enforcement officers have a duty to report anything that they confront.

[TheWolf]

According to local "news sources" martin had zimmerman flat out on the ground and was pounding his face in. At which point zimmerman drew his pistol and shot martin. You'll never be able to prove who initiated contact. If you've got any other evidence other than a witness that "heard" someone scream for help. That sounds like textbook self defense. A girlfriend on a phone, not in the same county, isn't a stellar unbiased eye witness to anything. All zimmerman did was ask "hey, what are you doing here?" A fairly reasonable question for a kid that was new to this complex walking around at night dressed suspiciously. (To be honest, I wouldn't wear a ski mask into a bank and then claim to be profiled as a bank robber. Go around looking like a hood rat, get mistaken for one)

No one ever asks "Why didn't martin (who was obviously concerned) call the police?" Why didn't he call and say "Man there's a suspicious person following me, I need a cop out here asap". Could he have had a reason not to call the police? Why was he wearing a hoodie and jeans? It wasn't even cold enough for that. The high was 85 that day. This is florida, not chicago. It's warm in feb. Alas, the black man can make no mistakes in the eyes of blacks. If anything here, it's blacks that are being racist. Hispanics are now "white people". Black groups offering 10k bounties for the death of zimmerman or members of his family. Forming a lynchmob and demanding someones arrest when the case is anything but cut and dry and yet the cops can't be trusted because they side on the white guy every time. Sounds like 1960 all over again except from the other side. So now what? Gonna drag your dead son visage up to capitol hill to demand that they arrest someone without any eye witnesses and no hard evidence? Make it part of the "Keeping them honest" campaign. Who's "them" anyway? White america?

If we're going to assume all this stuff about zimmerman such as he aggressively hunted him because he was black because he hated blacks. (which is, legally, a long distance from a neighborhood watch guy running into a kid twice in one complex) Can we not assume some stuff about martin then. Maybe going to the store was really about buying some drugs. Maybe he tossed it in the bushes while running from zimmerman. Wouldn't be the first time and would be a great reason for not calling the police. I can't imagine watching basketball till almost midnight then going upto the store just for skittles and tea. Especially if you had to get up early for school in the morning. Oh thats right, Martin was serving a 10 day suspension for being a model "A" student in a low performing ghetto school. Ever think there might be more to this story than the keenly cookie cutter media story?

If the 17-24 black male no longer wants to be racially profiled. The 17-24 year old black male should clean up their act as a societal whole. 1.6% of the population in the state doing 60% of the violent crime in the state. It's not racist, it's statistics. Dear black america. Quit playing the race card, It's more played out than "hella flush". If you don't start nothing, there won't be nothing.

[HyperTek]

What if Martin attempted to reach for Zimmerman's gun, does that change the outcome at all? :foodforthought:

If someone pulled a gun on you at close range, you could either run and risk getting shot, or fight for your life and risk getting shot. I suppose the latter has more potential .

Whatever your guys beliefs are, i respect that.. We will find out after trail what really happened.

[Corbic]

According to local "news sources" martin had zimmerman flat out on the ground and was pounding his face in. At which point zimmerman drew his pistol and shot martin. You'll never be able to prove who initiated contact.

We can thu, Zimmerman.

Had Zimmerman listened to the police and just gone home none of this would have happened.

[db_s13]

go listen to the lawernce o'donnell interview of zimmermans lawyer who was too scared to face o'donnell and left the studio before the interview even started...
everything said in that interview could break the "case" the zimmerman team is trying to make....put that black guy in a hoody and jeans and he would be so super suspicious of a crime

[tricky_ab]

I honestly think Zimmerman was trying to be a hero by trying to confront Trayvon, it got physical, Zimmerman got a ass whooping and tried to get away. Trayvon than ran after Zimmerman, Zimmerman pulled the gun out and both men started fighting over gun, gun was fired killing Trayvon, end of story. As for the police ignoring the investigation show me some proof. Law enforcement officers have a duty to report anything that they confront.

Look up. Also I'm at work so I don't have the time to pull links up.

Crib notes version. The first cops on the scene were from Narcotics squad who didn't inverview Zemmerman. They asked lead type questions and generally did a piss poor job of collecting evidence and eye witness accounts.

An example for me would be if Zimmerman was truly getting his head slammed into the ground, and got his nose broken, he would have went to the hospital. Also the police would have taken photos of his battered face for evidence. They didn't, and that's a integral part of his defense.

If they would have done a proper job from the beginning, we could have the ball rolling in court.

wall of sweeping generalizations

Just for you, I'll try not to embellish so much. (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/22/george-zimmerman-s-history-of-911-calls-a-complete-log.html) Granted, there are one or two instances of non-black 911 calls he made, but that doesn't change what I stated previously.

36. April 22, 2011 – 7:09 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Suspicious activity
Report: Juvenile black male “apprx 7–9” years old, four feet tall “skinny build short blk hair” last seen wearing a blue t-shirt and blue shortsMan those young trouble makers are ruining everything...right?!

[redline racer510]

According to local "news sources" martin had zimmerman flat out on the ground and was pounding his face in. At which point zimmerman drew his pistol and shot martin. You'll never be able to prove who initiated contact. If you've got any other evidence other than a witness that "heard" someone scream for help. That sounds like textbook self defense. A girlfriend on a phone, not in the same county, isn't a stellar unbiased eye witness to anything. All zimmerman did was ask "hey, what are you doing here?" A fairly reasonable question for a kid that was new to this complex walking around at night dressed suspiciously. (To be honest, I wouldn't wear a ski mask into a bank and then claim to be profiled as a bank robber. Go around looking like a hood rat, get mistaken for one)

No one ever asks "Why didn't martin (who was obviously concerned) call the police?" Why didn't he call and say "Man there's a suspicious person following me, I need a cop out here asap". Could he have had a reason not to call the police? Why was he wearing a hoodie and jeans? It wasn't even cold enough for that. The high was 85 that day. This is florida, not chicago. It's warm in feb. Alas, the black man can make no mistakes in the eyes of blacks. If anything here, it's blacks that are being racist. Hispanics are now "white people". Black groups offering 10k bounties for the death of zimmerman or members of his family. Forming a lynchmob and demanding someones arrest when the case is anything but cut and dry and yet the cops can't be trusted because they side on the white guy every time. Sounds like 1960 all over again except from the other side. So now what? Gonna drag your dead son visage up to capitol hill to demand that they arrest someone without any eye witnesses and no hard evidence? Make it part of the "Keeping them honest" campaign. Who's "them" anyway? White america?

If we're going to assume all this stuff about zimmerman such as he aggressively hunted him because he was black because he hated blacks. (which is, legally, a long distance from a neighborhood watch guy running into a kid twice in one complex) Can we not assume some stuff about martin then. Maybe going to the store was really about buying some drugs. Maybe he tossed it in the bushes while running from zimmerman. Wouldn't be the first time and would be a great reason for not calling the police. I can't imagine watching basketball till almost midnight then going upto the store just for skittles and tea. Especially if you had to get up early for school in the morning. Oh thats right, Martin was serving a 10 day suspension for being a model "A" student in a low performing ghetto school. Ever think there might be more to this story than the keenly cookie cutter media story?

If the 17-24 black male no longer wants to be racially profiled. The 17-24 year old black male should clean up their act as a societal whole. 1.6% of the population in the state doing 60% of the violent crime in the state. It's not racist, it's statistics. Dear black america. Quit playing the race card, It's more played out than "hella flush". If you don't start nothing, there won't be nothing.

+1 I think you hit the nail on the head, there is too much suspicion on the questionable evidence they have on Zimmerman. Black America only hurts it's self by having the guy arrested without any strong evidence, and I am sure they wouldn't like it if it was them in Zimmerman's shoes. Walking around a neighborhood in suspicous clothing in 85 degree weather isn't exactly a stereotype but rather out of the ordinary for the place and time of the occurance. BTW media hypes this incident way too much when there are more important things happening.

[atom]

Zimmerman said he was walking back to his SUV when Martin then pursued him. If that's the case then it seems like the stand your ground law would apply? Even if Zimmerman initially started the sequence of events, when Martin had the chance to walk away after Zimmerman stops pursuit but decides to now confront Zimmerman, logically it seems like Zimmerman can now claim self-defense.

Whether or not this actually happened is sorta irrelevant. It's Zimmerman's word alone and the police have to basically accept that as what happened unless witnesses come forward to say otherwise.

[Jybfan04]

Maybe because there is a lack of evidence. You can't arrest someone based off of low quality telephone recording and if there is witnesses how come we haven't see or heard from any of them. Sounds like there using the recordings to make it seem like a hate crime when it could have been some other noise that sounds like he said the alleged hate words. You have to look at this from both sides. Just because the victim was killed does not make him any less guilty.


SMH...

Evidence number one, he called 911 they told him to stand down he instead followed him.

Evidence number two, he was a self appointed neighborhood watch captain

Evidence number three, how can you claim self defense when the person your defending yourself from doesn't have any weapon?

:nono:

Race aside, I just ask people to think logically.

Everything about this case is wrong..

Period point blank!

Anyone know why this angel was suspended from school for 5 days?

So being suspended from school for 5 days mean what?

Please try to find a way to make a rationale argument in how that matters in anyway shape or form?

ps....


I'll wait patiently!

I don't think anyone has sided with Zimmerman. The question was posed should police arrest and jail you based on petitions and public opinion.

Second, the sources of your information are questionable and agenda driven.

Example: you state Zimmy called the police 11 times in 3 months - as if it shows he is bad. Ever think this shows he is just doing his "job" as the watchmen? Maybe this is why he ignored the request to break off pursuit. Maybe that's how it always goes "okay we'll look into it" and they never do, thus he now feels its up to him.

If he's had so much contact with him, and there are complaints, why are the cops not looking into this "loose cannon"?

Lastly, none of this answers what the kid was doing there in the first place. As my old man always says "nothing good happens after midnight".

I think a lot of individuals mistake the purpose of the petitions...

They aren't meant to wrongfully jail anyone, but to ensure that due diligence is done. Its no reason, this man shouldn't be locked up pending the investigation. Nothing about this case screams self defense, i'm sorry.

[KiLLeR2001]

An Unfortunate T-Shirt Hits Florida Streets In Wake Of Trayvon Martin Killing | The Smoking Gun (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/trayvon-martin/cracker-tshirt-759832)

LOL.

[S14DB]

Video: North Miami Beach High Students Ransack Walgreens After Trayvon Martin Protest - Miami News - Riptide 2.0 (http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2012/03/video_north_miami_beach_high_s.php)

[theicecreamdan]

A hoodie is not suspicious clothing. A lot of people wear them, even when its warm.


Evidence number three, how can you claim self defense when the person your defending yourself from doesn't have any weapon?


You don't need a "weapon" to be deadly/cause major bodily harm.

[delado]

Video: North Miami Beach High Students Ransack Walgreens After Trayvon Martin Protest - Miami News - Riptide 2.0 (http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2012/03/video_north_miami_beach_high_s.php)

Fucking smart.

[Jybfan04]

A hoodie is not suspicious clothing. A lot of people wear them, even when its warm.



You don't need a "weapon" to be deadly/cause major bodily harm.


:picardfp:

With that logic, Trayvon would still be alive and Zimmerman dead...

Zimmerman had a gun, Trayvon didn't...

Think logic and rationality, not race...

[raz0rbladez909]

SMH...

Evidence number three, how can you claim self defense when the person your defending yourself from doesn't have any weapon?


You asked this.



You don't need a "weapon" to be deadly/cause major bodily harm.

He answered with this.

Self defense is self defense, someone doesn't have to have an equal amount of "firepower" to defend themselves. If someone felt that their life was in danger enough to draw a weapon and shoot then more than likely there is a bit more to the story then suspected. Anyways it's all he said she said shit anyways, nobody on here was at the scene of the crime so you are all arguing over semantics. You can't petition someone into jail and rioting certainly isn't going to help your cause.

[Jybfan04]

You asked this.



He answered with this.

Self defense is self defense, someone doesn't have to have an equal amount of "firepower" to defend themselves. If someone felt that their life was in danger enough to draw a weapon and shoot then more than likely there is a bit more to the story then suspected. Anyways it's all he said she said shit anyways, nobody on here was at the scene of the crime so you are all arguing over semantics. You can't petition someone into jail and rioting certainly isn't going to help your cause.

I'm not arguing over semantics, i'm arguing based on the FACTS that have been presented. IMO, I just don't see how one logically can say they were scared of their lives when you have the upper hand ie 9mm gun.

At the end of the day, I just hope justice is served based on the evidence presented in the case.

[raz0rbladez909]

I'm not arguing over semantics, i'm arguing based on the FACTS that have been presented. IMO, I just don't see how one logically can say they were scared of their lives when you have the upper hand ie 9mm gun.

At the end of the day, I just hope justice is served based on the evidence presented in the case.

What justice? From what I've seen so far is that there really isn't a whole lot of evidence besides he said she said information and the public outcry because one persons skin color is different then anothers. Now was it racially motivated? Possibly, but none of us were involved so all we know is what the media tells us. Telephone recordings aren't exactly without a doubt evidence, and his own father said that wasn't his sons voice crying out for help. I wish there were more evidence to this but I'm not going to go try and burn someone at the stake because there is a perceived racial motivation.

Does anybody ever stop to think that maybe they might be the racist ones when the first thing they notice is a light skinned person and dark skinned person?

[redline racer510]

It's the word of someone that is alive against someone that is dead. Unless a first hand witness comes out with additional evidence there is nothing you can do. does not matter what happens. Even if they do take him to court, what is going to be the evidence against Zimmerman, a low quality phone recording between Zimmerman and the police department where he allegedly made racist comments towards trayvon? This is a failed case right from the beginning no matter how you look at it and who's side you take. There is no hard evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman is guilty of manslaughter or even criminal negligence.

[db_s13]

i could care less about the whole race thing (im a young black male), but its the negligence of the police officers who didnt follow procedures on the initial investigation, tried to correct witnesses, and failed to follow all leads. Also the blatant disregard to the police dispatchers orders that zimmerman showed and subsequently concluded in the death of a kid (no matter the size he's a kid) who only had skittles and ice tea in his possesion. In ANY case that results with a death in a confrontation between two citizen (not included law enforcement obviously), the person who killed the other should be put in jail until a bond is posted or the trial is over.

I will again ask... Would you be happy with the investigation conducted if this was your 17 year old son?

[raz0rbladez909]

i could care less about the whole race thing (im a young black male), but its the negligence of the police officers who didnt follow procedures on the initial investigation, tried to correct witnesses, and failed to follow all leads. Also the blatant disregard to the police dispatchers orders that zimmerman showed and subsequently concluded in the death of a kid (no matter the size he's a kid) who only had skittles and ice tea in his possesion. In ANY case that results with a death in a confrontation between two citizen (not included law enforcent obviously), the person who killed the other should be put in jail until a bond is posted or the trial is over.

I will again ask... Would you be happy with the investigation conducted if this was your 17 year out son

I certainly don't think anyone is happy with the outcome, but if it were my KID, he certainly wouldn't be out by himself roaming around at/around midnight. That is the responsibility of the PARENT, if I see kid's roaming around my neighborhood late at night I'm assuming they're up to no good no matter what race they are or what they're wearing. There is nothing for a minor to do after midnight. Someone has said it before and I'll say it again. "Nothing good happens after midnight."

There is certainly plenty of things that were handled incorrectly in this case, and that is quite obvious, however that doesn't automatically make Zimmerman guilty though. Yes it was a teenager, yes he was a minority which I wish wasn't the primary focus in this, but teenagers are just as capable of violence as anyone else. Everybody knows when you're younger you tend to think you are invincible, and your pride tends to come first in any situation. I don't find it hard to believe that he may have come back to get back at Zimmerman for chasing him. There are two sides to every story, one of them can't be told, Zimmerman isn't going to go to jail if there isn't without a doubt proof.

The really sad part is the rioting and bounties being put out, thats just plain uncivilized behavior at the least and it isn't helping anything in the situation.

[Corbic]

I will again ask... Would you be happy with the investigation conducted if this was your 17 year old son?

The "your kid" is just a bad argument. Anyone would be upset and expecting "more" if their kid was shot and killed, even if while committing an armed robbery.

"he was a good kid caught up in a bad situation..."

[db_s13]

I certainly don't think anyone is happy with the outcome, but if it were my KID, he certainly wouldn't be out by himself roaming around at/around midnight. That is the responsibility of the PARENT, if I see kid's roaming around my neighborhood late at night I'm assuming they're up to no good no matter what race they are or what they're wearing. Someone has said it before and I'll say it again. "Nothing good happens after midnight."

There is certainly plenty of things that were handled incorrectly in this case, and that is quite obvious, however that doesn't automatically make Zimmerman guilty though. Yes it was a teenager, yes he was a minority which I wish wasn't the primary focus in this, but teenagers are just as capable of violence as anyone else. Everybody knows when you're younger you tend to think you are invincible, and your pride tends to come first in any situation. I don't find it hard to believe that he may have come back to get back at Zimmerman for chasing him. There are two sides to every story, one of them can't be told, Zimmerman isn't going to go to jail if there isn't without a doubt proof.

The really sad part is the rioting and bounties being put out, thats just plain uncivilized behavior at the least and it isn't helping anything in the situation.

i never said anything about zimmerman being guilty... just saying that there are too many unknowns for the absence of a fair trial

Yes you would let your kid go to the store by themself but they did it was 7pm and the sunset was problably during his way home so it was hardly dark

if a person follows a person into an alley while questioning them on where they are going and why they are there with a gun in a visible location and they turn around and punch you in the face and then you pull the gun and shoot the person... as long as they hit you and there are no other witnesses its defending yourself and you dont have to have a trial, am i right? fuck no

the black panther people are extreme tho lol

[raz0rbladez909]

if a person follows a person into an alley while questioning them on where they are going and why they are there with a gun in a visible location and they turn around and punch you in the face and then you pull the gun and shoot the person... as long as they hit you and there are no other witnesses its defending yourself and you dont have to have a trial, am i right? fuck no

the black panther people are extreme tho lol

There was never a time that I said that the kid was undeserving of a fair trial or that he deserved to be shot, nobody deserves that. The situation is just sketchy all around, but you have all these hate crime activists trying to bust a salem witch trial on a guy that for all you or I know could've really been defending himself after the initial confrontation.

The other thing is none of us know how it went down, as we were not there; Therefore we cannot jump to a conclusion without evidence. There is a reason it is innocent until proven guilty and not the other way around, because half of the people arguing for the guy to be immediately arrested have no idea what they would charge him for. There is simply not enough evidence to prove without a doubt that it WASN'T done in self defense.

Here's another scenario. Lets just say Trayvon was successful in striking Zimmerman and managed to knock him out and just happened to notice he had a gun and decided to put a bullet in Zimmerman, would there be the same kind of media coverage or extreme amounts of racism going on here? Or would it be just another "regular" murder in the news. I find this kind of stuff disgusting because then it would no longer be considered a hate crime.

[Danb]

Blacks make up 50-60% of prison inmates but only roughly 15% of the united states population.

Shits out of control. I can see zimmermans motive

[db_s13]

There was never a time that I said that the kid was undeserving of a fair trial or that he deserved to be shot, nobody deserves that. The situation is just sketchy all around, but you have all these hate crime activists trying to bust a salem witch trial on a guy that for all you or I know could've really been defending himself after the initial confrontation.

The other thing is none of us know how it went down, as we were not there; Therefore we cannot jump to a conclusion without evidence. There is a reason it is innocent until proven guilty and not the other way around, because half of the people arguing for the guy to be immediately arrested have no idea what they would charge him for. There is simply not enough evidence to prove without a doubt that it WASN'T done in self defense.

Here's another scenario. Lets just say Trayvon was successful in striking Zimmerman and managed to knock him out and just happened to notice he had a gun and decided to put a bullet in Zimmerman, would there be the same kind of media coverage or extreme amounts of racism going on here? Or would it be just another "regular" murder in the news. I find this kind of stuff disgusting because then it would no longer be considered a hate crime.

the senator that wrote the "stand your ground" law said that according to the story line that zimmerman gave that he was NOT covered under the law due to him initiating the confrontation (getting out the car and approaching him with a visible loaded hand gun)

if trayvon knock him out then shot him? yes that is murder because zimmerman posed no threat after being rendered unconscious

[db_s13]

Blacks make up 50-60% of prison inmates but only roughly 15% of the united states population.

Shits out of control. I can see zimmermans motive

explain yourself because this is coming off as a very racist remark

[raz0rbladez909]

Blacks make up 50-60% of prison inmates but only roughly 15% of the united states population.

Shits out of control. I can see zimmermans motive

Where are you getting your statistics? You can't just throw out numbers and not provide a source. Even if those statistics were true, not all black people are the same just like not all white people are the same, you can't go judging people based on statistics for prison inmates. At that rate it just keeps racism going.

[HyperTek]

Video: North Miami Beach High Students Ransack Walgreens After Trayvon Martin Protest - Miami News - Riptide 2.0 (http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2012/03/video_north_miami_beach_high_s.php)

edit: from what it looks like, they didnt grab anything, maybe they thought they would just run in there to show that they shouldnt be suspicious of stealing anything.

[KiLLeR2001]

Lets put it this way. There was WAY MORE evidence in the Casey Anthony case to put her away for murder... Look where she is now. This will be dismissed. Lets move on now.

[LEG1T]

So about Zimmerman being attacked...

I see no blood nor bruises?

http://www.complex.com/city-guide/2012/03/footage-of-george-zimmerman-from-night-of-shooting-leaks

See for yourself.

[Phlip]

So about Zimmerman being attacked...

I see no blood nor bruises?

http://www.complex.com/city-guide/2012/03/footage-of-george-zimmerman-from-night-of-shooting-leaks

See for yourself.

Your link is not working, so I am giving another.
Trayvon Martin Case: Exclusive Surveillance Video of George Zimmerman - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/WN/trayvon-martin-case-exclusive-surveillance-video-george-zimmerman/story?id=16022897#.T3Or7TFrPJb)

And in response to the passive-aggressive racist's FAVORITE play (not to the above quoted unless you take it personally), the "I have tons of black friends" approach, Zimmerman's token black friend is being exposed as nothing more than a slavecatcher. (videos contained)
Joe Oliver Exposed on Lawrence O'Donnell's Last Call | News One (http://newsone.com/nation/afisher/joe-oliver-lawrence-o-donnell-last-call-interview/)
No, it does not make one a racist to call attention to the obviousness that something is (even potentially) racially rooted. However, it lends HARD to one being racist to spout off broad-sweeping generalizations, hazy-ass pseudo-"facts" and out-of-context victim blaming to a level that I have not yet seen in my almost 33 years.


Now...
FACT: the initial attempted charge in this case was of manslaughter... Given what we KNOW - that the now-deceased had EVERY right to be in the neighborhood and NO duty to respond to the person who murdered him and that his killer defied what he was told in order to pursue him - a manslaughter charge makes sense to me at least.
OPINIONS: EVERYTHING else that has been said, up to and including the almost and overt racist shit a couple or few people have said in this thread.
FACT: Zimmerman has a past that has been hidden by his position, with a dad that is a retired judge and mother who was the clerk of that court, he has a history (http://www.legitgov.org/George-Zimmerman-son-judge-sealed-closed-arrest-record-Fla) of aggressive behaviors that are inexplicably hidden (see above FACTS) or simply reduced to slaps on the wrist. If one believes in the "good ol boy" network, then now is the time to corroborate that.

Please separate facts from opinions when making statements, because I have made decisions that I will SPECIFICALLY refrain from EVER addressing at least 3 people who commented in this thread based upon their inability to do so.

[theicecreamdan]

I think its unfortunate that I need to clarify that I'm not arguing in defense of either part. Its obvious that the investigation into Trayvon's death got screwed up. Very few people have intimate knowledge of any FACTS regarding what happened. A lot of people bring up a lot of facts about things that happened in the past that have very little to do with what happened.

IF Zimmerman did not act in self defense, arresting him before the FACTS are put together won't result in justice.

In the absence of relevant facts the media has brought a lot of attention to stuff that doesn't matter. Don't get sucked into the BS
A hoodie is "suspicious"?
A high school suspension matters when somebody is DEAD?

:picardfp:

With that logic, Trayvon would still be alive and Zimmerman dead...

Zimmerman had a gun, Trayvon didn't...

Think logic and rationality, not race...
I never said a gun wasn't more deadly than an unarmed person. I said an unarmed person can still be deadly.
Man killed by one punch in Vegas casino brawl - CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500164_162-20077324.html)

One punch. Dead. That's not the only story. It doesn't matter if the fist is black, white, green or any color. No weapon does not mean not deadly.

At what point IF you are being attacked do you draw the line to determine if somebody attacking you is going to kill you?

[redline racer510]

I agree with above comments

[redline racer510]

Your link is not working, so I am giving another.
Trayvon Martin Case: Exclusive Surveillance Video of George Zimmerman - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/WN/trayvon-martin-case-exclusive-surveillance-video-george-zimmerman/story?id=16022897#.T3Or7TFrPJb)

And in response to the passive-aggressive racist's FAVORITE play (not to the above quoted unless you take it personally), the "I have tons of black friends" approach, Zimmerman's token black friend is being exposed as nothing more than a slavecatcher. (videos contained)
Joe Oliver Exposed on Lawrence O'Donnell's Last Call | News One (http://newsone.com/nation/afisher/joe-oliver-lawrence-o-donnell-last-call-interview/)
No, it does not make one a racist to call attention to the obviousness that something is (even potentially) racially rooted. However, it lends HARD to one being racist to spout off broad-sweeping generalizations, hazy-ass pseudo-"facts" and out-of-context victim blaming to a level that I have not yet seen in my almost 33 years.


Now...
FACT: the initial attempted charge in this case was of manslaughter... Given what we KNOW - that the now-deceased had EVERY right to be in the neighborhood and NO duty to respond to the person who murdered him and that his killer defied what he was told in order to pursue him - a manslaughter charge makes sense to me at least.
OPINIONS: EVERYTHING else that has been said, up to and including the almost and overt racist shit a couple or few people have said in this thread.
FACT: Zimmerman has a past that has been hidden by his position, with a dad that is a retired judge and mother who was the clerk of that court, he has a history (http://www.legitgov.org/George-Zimmerman-son-judge-sealed-closed-arrest-record-Fla) of aggressive behaviors that are inexplicably hidden (see above FACTS) or simply reduced to slaps on the wrist. If one believes in the "good ol boy" network, then now is the time to corroborate that.

Please separate facts from opinions when making statements, because I have made decisions that I will SPECIFICALLY refrain from EVER addressing at least 3 people who commented in this thread based upon their ability to do so.
I have been saving this for this very type of situation:Let me google that for you (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=butt+hurt+form)

[fyneyoungstunna]

Phlip id love to buy you a beer.


wolf, Imotion, and Redline....your hoods are showing....

[redline racer510]

Phlip id love to buy you a beer.


wolf, Imotion, and Redline....your hoods are showing....

Are they? O shoot let me hide it real quick lol.
Are you mad?
Fyneyoungstuna your sig speaks for itself.

[VROOOM]

i keep reading that Zimmerman is a White Hispanic. ive never heard that before, is this something new? does that make Obama Black White? it seems people are trying to make it a Black vs White thing when it isnt.
it seems to me its an overzealous wannabe cop, that fucked up pretty bad.

[atom]

Hispanic isn't a race. Lot's of Hispanic people identify themselves as white.

[SimpleS14]

So Zimmerman has ties in the legal system huh?

Anyways, after looking at those surveillance photos, Zimmerman looks very different from the old mugshot. Definitely slimmed down and capable (IMO) of handling a guy like Martin.

I don't know about you guys, but if someone like that was falling me and confronted me I would get defensive.

[TheWolf]

Now...
FACT: the initial attempted charge in this case was of manslaughter... Given what we KNOW - that the now-deceased had EVERY right to be in the neighborhood and NO duty to respond to the person who murdered him and that his killer defied what he was told in order to pursue him - a manslaughter charge makes sense to me at least.

FACT: Zimmerman has a past that has been hidden by his position, with a dad that is a retired judge and mother who was the clerk of that court, he has a history (http://www.legitgov.org/George-Zimmerman-son-judge-sealed-closed-arrest-record-Fla) of aggressive behaviors that are inexplicably hidden (see above FACTS) or simply reduced to slaps on the wrist. If one believes in the "good ol boy" network, then now is the time to corroborate that.
.

Break down those facts and tell me who punched who and initiated the physical confrontation and you'll have your manslaughter case. Or else you're in agreement with me that everything is idle speculation. Having a sealed arrest record could be a "good ol boy" move or it could just be prudent decision making from having families in the court system. If you have "facts" that show he was given favorable treatment in the past due to his family connections then bring them forth. Sealing a record is easy in florida. $120 and a certified form. If the record is sealed then he can legally deny the arrest and doesn't have to report it on a job application and it won't show on background checks which is important especially if you want to hold certain licenses.

As to the video being the conclusive proof that he didn't get punched is a joke. It's entirely possible an EMT on the scene cleaned him up. What'd you expect? a blood stained shirt and blood pouring down his face? if that was true, he would have went to the hospital first, not the police station.

The populace down here doesn't want a manslaughter conviction with a fluff 2 years/probation. They want murder 2 with hate crime. What people don't see or get report about is the amount of white hate speech that goes on at these rallies. Seriously gonna be riots unless they give him something that sticks which is terrible because they've got a less than stellar case for manslaughter. There's already been stores ransacked and windows broken. It's practically a circus.

Yeah Fyneyoungstuna my hood is showing for calling for peace and letting the facts present themselves and not jumping to conclusions based on he said she said accounts and piecemeal media accounts. That makes me a racist, so be it. I don't need a hood with the "minority opportunity district" congresswoman Corrine Brown saying "if america had a cold, african americans gots pneumonia." when describing how african americas are disadvantaged group to society. African americans, through out this case, have continued to endlessly jump over each other to "prove" how disadvantaged they are.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/dr/teg/tsg/release/sites/default/files/assets/zimmermanshirtlarge.jpg

Rep. Corrine Brown has a Meltdown - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxs5Woss__k)

Being that this girl was abducted and killed like 5 miles from me, and you'd have to be blind to miss all the purple ribbons still up in town. The park they're building named after her. Shit the whole entire town was looking for this girl for about 5 days. It's nice to see that Somer Thompson was so easily forgotten. Orange county is like 2 hours away.

Corrine Brown forgets Somer's name on CNN | News - Home (http://www.news4jax.com/news/Corrine-Brown-forgets-Somer-s-name-on-CNN/-/475880/9765636/-/3o75em/-/index.html)

[!Zar!]

That Zimmerman dude looks like a Mexican.

Carry on.

[upsdude]

when did p. diddy grow dreads?

in anycase, racism goes both ways. just 'cause you're black doesn't make it ok to use racial slurs against others. but is anyone going to point that out? nope. when you say racism what do you automatically think? a white person doing/saying something towards a minority. but a black guy calling a white dude a "cracker"? that's totally ok...hell that kind of reverse racism was even glorified in hollywood. remember "White men can't Jump?"

[Phlip]

Zimmerman's dad: Martin's final phone call didn't happen - Video on msnbc.com (http://video.msnbc.msn.com/the-ed-show/46899725#46899725)

[HyperTek]

who gives a fck what Robert Zimmerman has to say or his brother, how about we hear from George himself? They wherent at the shooting, just George himself.

[Highway Riding]

who gives a fck what Robert Zimmerman has to say or his brother, how about we hear from George himself? They wherent at the shooting, just George himself.

say werd! I think it will not be that hard to poke holes in any statement he makes when the time comes

[drift freaq]

Selma Hayek? Vincente Fox? You ever seen what people look like in Argentina and Uraguay? Hispanic isn't a race or a nationality, just like Latin doesn't mean you're Spanish speaking and brown. :lol

This is true because a lot of Argentinians are of Italian descent. Oh and what about all the Brazilians of Portugese decent?

Oh and on the Latin front and I know this is bound to piss some people off but the true Latino's would be Italian as Latin is what the Romans spoke and guess what? That was Italy. LOL

Of course yes Spanish is derived from Latin but so is French so if your gonna play that card then you have to French people Latino's as well. LOL I do not think a French person would take kindly to being called Latino.

hahahhahahaha jokes aside it does sound like the cops are totally fucked up here.

Oh and yes this does seem to be a case of racial hatred i.e. a hate crime and it is does seem to be there is some kind of collusion and obstruction of justice going on, on the parents part based on their standings in the community.

What needs to happen is a Federal investigation of the Sanford Police department and a look at the local division of the municipal court system there as well.

If the Feds can investigate the LA PD for this kind of stuff which they have done in the past there is no reason it can't be done in lowly Sanford Florida.

[Phlip]

Oh and yes this does seem to be a case of racial hatred i.e. a hate crime and it is does seem to be there is some kind of collusion and obstruction of justice going on, on the parents part based on their standings in the community.

What needs to happen is a Federal investigation of the Sanford Police department and a look at the local division of the municipal court system there as well.

If the Feds can investigate the LA PD for this kind of stuff which they have done in the past there is no reason it can't be done in lowly Sanford Florida.
I agree with you on these points (naturally, considering I have brought 2 of them up in this thread).
I also happen to be of the opinion that the high-ups who have already stepped down/aside in the wake of this is suggestive of what that federal probe will find. Better get out on your own terms and save that pension than to find yourself on trial for their hands in the mishandling of this and/or previous cases.

Also... I still take great issue with this slavecatcher token-ass "black friend" who can vouch on his 'gut feeling' - which are totally permissable in a court of law - whose claims don't stand up to common fucking sense when it is painfully obvious that he does not know the accused.
[link] (http://video.msnbc.msn.com/the-last-word/46875546#46875546)
A character witness would do best to actually KNOW the person he is cosigning.

[Brian]

The media is such a fucking asshole about everything. racial stuff is getting really old now.
Shut the fuck up already

[exitspeed]

The media is such a fucking asshole about everything. racial stuff is getting really old now.
Shut the fuck up already

I usually don't agree with you...but I do right now.

[tricky_ab]

Ummmm . . .

Former co-worker: Zimmerman lost security guard job after he ‘snapped’ (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/03/30/former-co-worker-zimmerman-lost-security-guard-job-after-he-snapped/)

The neighborhood watchman who in February shot 17-year-old Trayvon Martin was once fired from his job as a security guard for “being too aggressive,” according to a new report.

An unnamed former co-worker told the New York Daily News that George Zimmerman was paid under-the-table for providing security for illegal house parties between 2001 and 2005, but was let go because his anger issues “became a liability.”

“Usually he was just a cool guy,” the former co-worker explained. “He liked to drink and hang with the women like the rest of us. … But it was like Jekyll and Hyde. When the dude snapped, he snapped.”

“He had a temper and he became a liability,” he recalled. “One time this woman was acting a little out of control. She was drunk. George lost his cool and totally overreacted. … It was weird, because he was such a cool guy, but he got all nuts. He picked her up and threw her. It was pure rage. She twisted her ankle. Everyone was flipping out.”

[Brian]

I usually don't agree with you...but I do right now.

Hey, cool cool. :dead:

[Brian]

Also, Spike Lee is a fucking idiot and I hope he gets his ass handed to him.

[shahabshaukat]

what would Atticus do?

[KiLLeR2001]

Media is always there when its white on black crime. But what about black on white crime?

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/525605_199157643520634_100002791984484_230924_1356 240837_n.jpg

According to news reports, Christian and Newsom had gone on a date at a local restaurant on Saturday, January 6, 2007, but did not return home. During their night out, the couple was carjacked, bound and blindfolded by three black males, and "taken back to Lemaricus Devall 'Slim' Davidson's rented house on Chipman Street."[6]

Christian's parents found her abandoned Toyota 4-Runner two blocks away from the Chipman Street house the following Monday with the help of her mobile phone provider. An envelope recovered from the vehicle yielded fingerprint evidence that led police to Lemaricus Davidson and 2316 Chipman Street. When police went to the address on Tuesday, January 9, they found the home unoccupied and Christian's body in a trash can in the kitchen.

According to the testimony of the Knox County Acting Medical Examiner Dr. Darinka Mileusnic-Polchan at the subsequent trial of Eric Boyd, Newsom was repeatedly sodomized with an object and then blindfolded, gagged, arms and feet bound and his head covered. Barefoot, he was either led or dragged outside the house to a set of nearby railroad tracks. He was shot in the back of the head, the neck, and the back, and his body then set on fire.

Channon's death came after hours of sexual torture, medical examiner Mileusnic-Polchan testified. Channon suffered horrific injuries to her vagina, anus and mouth. She was not only raped but savaged with "an object," possibly a broken chair leg, the doctor testified. She was beaten in the head. Some type of chemical was poured down her throat, and her body, including her bleeding and battered genital area, likely scrubbed with the same solution - all while Channon was alive, the forensic expert said. She was then "hog-tied," with curtains and strips of bedding, her face covered tightly with a small trash bag and her body stashed inside five large trash bags before being placed inside a large trash can and covered with sheets. Channon died slowly, suffocating, the medical examiner said.[7]

I almost threw up after reading that paragraph.

Murders of Channon Christian and Christopher Newsom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Channon_Christian_and_Christopher_Newso m)

[nomoremk2]

What the hell does that have to do with this thread?

[Phlip]

What the hell does that have to do with this thread?

When people don't buy blaming the victim or citing outright less-than-accurate "facts," the next plays are to change the subject and blame the "Liberal Media". That combines those two items all into one swift maneuver.

[redline racer510]

Media is always there when its white on black crime. But what about black on white crime?

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/525605_199157643520634_100002791984484_230924_1356 240837_n.jpg



I almost threw up after reading that paragraph.

Murders of Channon Christian and Christopher Newsom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Channon_Christian_and_Christopher_Newso m)

How come we never heard about this. This seems 1000x times worst than the Travon incident. The media likes to hype these types of things to get people to bash one another so it becomes worst and they get to report on it.

[BOROSUN]

bDHOydkudss
IJH0LzPe4EA

more info about trayvon martin
Was Trayvon Martin a Gangster? Is George Zimmerman being demonized? | Z6Mag (http://z6mag.com/featured/was-trayvon-martin-a-gangster-is-george-zimmerman-being-demonized-166980.html)

[HyperTek]

How come we never heard about this. This seems 1000x times worst than the Travon incident. The media likes to hype these types of things to get people to bash one another so it becomes worst and they get to report on it.

maybe because the police did their job and those criminals where taken into custody right away . :spank:

[Phlip]

I also love how the story has gone from “around 10pm” to “after midnight” to “3am,” according to those who just want this murder swept under the rug, when 911 records from all phones involved show this happened between 7:11 and 7:17pm, and Zimmerman was at the police station at 7:35ish, uninjured with no blood on him and cops NOT protecting themselves when he got there.
Cops ALWAYS wear standard blue gloves if they have to handle someone who even has something as minor as a PAPERCUT, I would think that “scratches from having his head slammed on the ground” and “broken nose” might create the kind of leakage that would incite an officer to protect himself from bloodborne infection.
These stories are not matching… There are 3 sides to every story and one person was smoked short of his chance to present his side. I am pretty sure someone is getting fucked over in this one. Good going again and as usual, Florida.

[fyneyoungstunna]

wolf:
If the 17-24 black male no longer wants to be racially profiled. The 17-24 year old black male should clean up their act as a societal whole. 1.6% of the population in the state doing 60% of the violent crime in the state. It's not racist, it's statistics. Dear black america. Quit playing the race card, It's more played out than "hella flush". If you don't start nothing, there won't be nothing.
so,we as a race should assimilate and model ourselves to be more like "you"...the model citizens? We will do that right after you: bring back the huge population of Buffalo, Give the Indians their land back...along with the Hispanic texans... Apologise for Emmett Louis Till, That seems like a fair trade. Also the Tuskegee air men should have a memorial built for saving yall's asses repeatedly while still taking shit. Asshole.

[fyneyoungstunna]

Oh and our crimes are just violent, not Heinous:
shooting up schools, bombing a community..in america, Tuskegee Experiment, Trail of Tears, Columbine, George bush..Jr and Senior, Abraham Lincoln, The hutus and the tootsies. Should I go on?

[Daniel.]

By bringing up crimes committed by a specific race, and saying "look what you guys did, it's way worse" you guys are just perpetuating racism.

I blame the media. I blame you guys.

[KiLLeR2001]

Crazy thing is. If Zimmerman was black, this story never would have left the city of Sanford. There's so many murders going on within our cities and do they get this kind of treatment of attention. Absolutely not.

[HyperTek]

this is a bit odd lol White Grandfather Detained While Walking With Black Granddaughter: Scott Henson Cuffed By Texas Police (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/14/white-grandfather-detained_n_1275383.html)

[Phlip]

This is kinda crazy, the first time a lot of people have seen anything like this play out in public discourse for their entire lives...

Trayvon Martin case exposes worst in media | The Cutline - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/cutline/trayvon-martin-case-exposes-worst-media-210020839.html)

[Matej]

This reminds of when American media were preoccupied with whether some Cuban kid should be returned to Cuba, while US planes were bombing Croatia killing thousands of children.

[Corbic]

This reminds of when American media were preoccupied with whether some Cuban kid should be returned to Cuba, while US planes were bombing Croatia killing thousands of children.

God, I was in Highschool.

Or how about when some rich skank went to Aruba to party her underage ass off and disappeared.

Of course we blame Aruba and put out travel advisories, even though her home town had double the crime rate.

[HalveBlue]

This reminds of when American media were preoccupied with whether some Cuban kid should be returned to Cuba, while US planes were bombing Croatia killing thousands of children.

Hmm...we never bombed Croatia. We bombed Yugoslavia (Serbia) in response to Yugoslavia's systematic ethnic cleansing of Kosovo.

A complex and complicated situation that has absolutely nothing to do with the killing of an unarmed black kid in Florida.

[Corbic]

Hmm...we never bombed Croatia. We bombed Yugoslavia (Serbia) in response to Yugoslavia's systematic ethnic cleansing of Kosovo.

A complex and complicated situation that has absolutely nothing to do with the killing of an unarmed black kid in Florida.

You missed his point.

Where is the outrage on this bullshit?
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/03/29/11-caller-arrested-after-california-cops-shoot-dead-alleged-armed-robber/?test=latestnews#ixzz1qUu2oj6v

[Phlip]

Where is the outrage on this bullshit?
911 Caller Arrested In Deadly Police Shooting | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/03/29/11-caller-arrested-after-california-cops-shoot-dead-alleged-armed-robber/?test=latestnews#ixzz1qUu2oj6v)

Actually, I don’t see the similarities on this one, unless you’re speaking to be outraged with the person who called – then lied to – the 911 dispatcher in specifically saying the person had a gun. With that on-the-record knowledge, the cops will NOT have time to stop and ask the guy if he has a gun or frisk him, they can only assume (and hopefully under some perjury laws) that the person on the 911 recording who said he had a gun was not shitting them. That is totally not the same as some neighborhood watch going vigilante and pursuing someone and eventually shooting him.

A better "where's the outrage?" connection to attempt would be Oscar Grant, but I don't think that this "comparing this case to EVERYTHING except for this case" is necessarily endearing or conducive to an even slightly civilized discourse on the subject.

[Corbic]

Actually, I don’t see the similarities on this one, unless you’re speaking to be outraged with the person who called – then lied to – the 911 dispatcher in specifically saying the person had a gun. With that on-the-record knowledge, the cops will NOT have time to stop and ask the guy if he has a gun or frisk him, they can only assume (and hopefully under some perjury laws) that the person on the 911 recording who said he had a gun was not shitting them.

The kid that was shot and killed was not even the robber, just some black college kid.

The cops are trying to dump the blame on someone else. Another report says the cops fired from their vehicle.

Why do you believe the cops bullshit that "he gestured to his waist" as justifiable defense but Zimmerman is lying when he says that Trayvon knocked him over and assaulted him?

[Phlip]

The kid that was shot and killed was not even the robber, just some black college kid.

The cops are trying to dump the blame on someone else. Another report says the cops fired from their vehicle.

Why do you believe the cops bullshit that "he gestured to his waist" as justifiable defense but Zimmerman is lying when he says that Trayvon knocked him over and assaulted him?

I missed the part where the person they shot was not the robber... my bad

Why do you believe the cops bullshit that "he gestured to his waist" as justifiable defense but Zimmerman is lying when he says that Trayvon knocked him over and assaulted him?
Because I still have no good reason to believe that Zimmerman was attacked. To me, it STILL sounds like he followed (against what he was told to do) Martin and confronted him, and when he was losing the ensuing scuffle shot him, perhaps from the embarrassment of getting his ass kicked. The difference is who started the confrontation, and who was armed (despite the fact that he should not have been as 'neighborhood watch').
Lastly, I refuse to support this victim blaming bullshit; "he got followed and eventually shot for being black and suspicious" is just the same as "she got raped because she had on sexy clothes".



That has been my position all along.
If George Zimmerman had not gotten out of his car to confront him (as outlined in EVERY neighborhood watch program), had not been armed while doing neighborhood watch (ditto), completing his duties to simply observe and report, then we’re probably not having this conversation and his life wouldn’t be pretty much ruined, which it will be, even if he comes off of this charged with nothing at all which he probably will. What this brings attention to, however, is a shittily written law that apparently allows loopholes in which someone can confront someone – perhaps even physically – and shoot that person dead when that confrontation does not go as intended. That is what really needs to change here. It is too late to bring back those killed under it, and that sucks just as much.
Wait, I don't have the genetic makeup to have thoughts like this, perhaps I should not be in this thread, I am supposed to be out committing some crimes and making excuses for why I can't get ahead. Sure, this runs totally counter to my degree, house, family and continued gainful employment, but apparently I am not really black then?

[Corbic]

Because I still have no good reason to believe that Zimmerman was attacked. To me, it STILL sounds like he followed (against what he was told to do) Martin and confronted him, and when he was losing the ensuing scuffle shot him...

I agree and support this theory. My argument was the Cali Polices' explanation for gunning down a random black kid is just as bad.

I suspect they pulled up to a "suspicious black youth with a backpack" and yelled "hey you / freeze", he turns around not knowing what is going on and

*pop pop-pop pop pop*

The group of storm troopers mow him down not knowing who short first or even why they shot "everyone just started shooting"..

Ten minutes latter "uh, I thought he was going for a gun".

Happens a lot quite frankly. Pigs get all pumped up, one gets startled and they all dump their magazines.

[Phlip]

I agree and support this theory. My argument was the Cali Polices' explanation for gunning down a random black kid is just as bad.

I suspect they pulled up to a "suspicious black youth with a backpack" and yelled "hey you / freeze", he turns around not knowing what is going on and

*pop pop-pop pop pop*

The group of storm troopers mow him down not knowing who short first or even why they shot "everyone just started shooting"..

Ten minutes latter "uh, I thought he was going for a gun".

Happens a lot quite frankly. Pigs get all pumped up, one gets startled and they all dump their magazines.
And for MOST of this, I agree with you, with the exception of this being (perhaps the only one) the time where - if they legitimately thought this was the guy - they had reason to believe he was armed. Now, if they were just randomly approaching any black dude in the area and harassing, then yes, I am with you 100%.
Unfortunate case of wrong place/wrong time, which will turn into a muddled mess of he-said/she-said and eventually end in the screwjob of the victim.

[EnemyS15]

What a Circus Freak show this has turned into!

4factors really have turned this into something that it is not.

1- Media
2- Irrational people
3- The Racist crutch
4- Al Sharpton

If people would take out their emotions and approach this as rational unbiased people, seeking the truth, they will find that this more than likely is not race driven. Coming at this unbiased and without any emotional attachment, putting together what I do know about the case, this has been a situation that was merely 1 man taking the law into his own hands and consequently making an erroneous, spur of the moment decision, that ended an innocent childs life. Very tragic and very unfortunate.

You could almost piece this together just from what we do know about what happened that night and taking into consideration typical male behavior.

In the tapes, Zimmerman stated this 'kid is up to no good, looks like a GOON!', not koon like all those who are dead set it is racial motivated WANT it to sound like ((Enraged/emotional and with their mind already made up, those individuals hear what they want to hear). Which has zimmerman already profiling this kid. He also stated that 'it looks like he has something in his pocket'. Dispatch directed Zimmerman to not follow, but clearly zimmerman was going to follow and had continued to follow, since he made the comment "he is running". Treyvon just reacted like any young man would do if being followed by a stranger.

Zimmerman is already on edge and "high alert" ,since he already suspects this kid and assumes he has something in his pocket (which can easily be said, in that situation, he wasn't thinking it was a bottle or skittles, but more like a weapon). At this point Zimmerman is ready to operate on Fight or flight responses. Martin is pretty much at that point, being followed. What if (and this is purely based off of my speculations and what I perceive what went down, based off of the evidence and how I or any typical male WOULD REACT in such a situation) Zimmerman said "fuck this, im going in" to prevent Martin from getting away, approached him (instigating the confrontation) with words and with caution, Martin already scared and operating on fight or flight replied back in a way that ZImmerman didn't like, The 2 started to exchange heated words, and wanting to take control of the situation Zimmerman decided to apprehend Martin. Martin, not knowing what is going on, defends himself however he can. Zimmerman, who already wrongfully profiled this kid as a criminal, took it as an act of aggression and possible threat on his life, drew his fire arm at the heat of the moment, without thinking threw the situation, and took Martin's life. <---THAT seems like a more believable scenario than.. THAT FUCKER CHASED MARTIN AND GUNNED HIM DOWN CAUSE HE BLACK!... really?? grow up a bit captain crunch.

Neither one of their actions follows a case of racial hate crime. Why call the cops if you plan on killing the person? It only ties you to the crime, when you could just gun and run, without any of this nonsense and no ties/witnesses. Why wouldn't Martin call 911 if he felt his life was in danger or run to a home or start yelling for help, rather than just running away and then continuing off walking, on the phone with his Gf until it is almost too late? Probably , like Zimmerman, he was gonna stand his ground too.

This is a situation of a Man putting himself in the wrong predicament that made him choose to draw his firearm, without merit. Does it make it right? Absolutely not. Zimmerman carries a fire arm. He then understands the responsibility and consequences having a firearm at his side and using it. Zimmerman fucked up! He should be charged. Zimmerman took matters into his own hands, went and played cops, and now a child is dead. That is the situation, not this racism bullshit. Neither wanted to back down and this is what happened. Zimmerman probably got a bit of a beat down, but I believe most of his injuries and "Show" at the time was cause, once the moment went by, he realized what he did and how HUGE OF A SHIT STORM HE JUST GOT INTO and didn't want to end up going to jail for this. I bet he got a bit of a ass whooping, but not as severe as he states , everything else was either mocked up, or self inflicted to collaborate his story. In the end, BOTH PARTIES could've done stuff differently to avoid this confrontation. But in the end, I blame Zimmerman. The one who carried a firearm, the ADULT, the one who should be responsible for the safety of the neighborhood (being neighborhood watch) to have done the adult thing and the right thing. Which was to LEAVE IT TO THE AUTHORITIES!


In the end Justice and THE TRUTH will prevail.

















On a side note.... This situation has turned into a fucking joke......

From people "making a statement" with this hoodie thing and people boycotting the store he was at and other shit, to Spike Lee giving out the WRONG address and phone number of the "martins" causing an innocent family to flee their home.. I can't help but to see this anymore than a public stunt/mockery of a tragic situation. It's like a small group decide to start shit in the heat of a moment and it trickles off to others and before you know it.. you got an all scale riot in your hands. Actors and celebrities showing their "support" by wearing a hoodie or buying a treyvon shirt... If I was Martin's family, i'd be pissed. I'd want it all to stop and the let justice system and my means see it through. If these celebrities and actors and face book groups, boycotters, and rallys wanted to support his cause.... Help the family. Pay for his funeral, help the family with some counseling, offer to pay for dream team lawyers. Not put on a hoodie and eat some fucking skittles... How is that supporting? It's the perfect time to stand up and get your 5 mins of fame! They might mean well, but there are more productive and helpful ways of showing SUPPORT!

The one who really needs to gtfo and stop making this worse than what it is .. is
Ol Rev. Al sharp. He can't let this one go. Perfect p.r. he needs to continue to make himself relevant. Where is he when a black man dies by a another black man? Where is he when Hydra lacey (a black man) gunned down some WHITE cops in St. Pete? Where is he when a young black man was dismembered, being dragged by a truck, in a southern Us state,by a group of white guys?? Where are the rallys? Where are the protests? Where are the boycotts and blockage of public roads? This guy fades in and out like a a bad fashion fad, whenever opportunity knocks. When Ol Rev. starts to fade away in public's eyes, he finds a perfect opportunity to stir stuff up, and get himself back into the spotlight. In my opinion (I will probably get some heat, but this the spirit of debating)that man is a detriment to the black community and to the overall fight against Racism and Equality. This man is a plague to the cause. Stop allowing this man to "be the word" against racism and such. All he does is continuously stir up emotions, ramp up already emotionally charged folks and get them to act out their emotions and anger, rather than collectively and rationally move forward to correct and bring a matter to our attention. The store Martin was at is being boycotted, people attacking innocent families, blocking public roads, wanting to boycot SKITTLES AND THE TEA COMPANY!! <---- like they had something to do with the events that transpired... What does all of that bullshit do in the end, spark more problems and only delays the justice that is needed. People are picking "SIDES". Fuck that go team truth and team justice.


/end rant

[KiLLeR2001]

Here we go again...

Two Black Teens Fueled By Hate From Al Sharpton Brutally Beat a White Man in Sanford, FL (http://www.dividedstates.com/two-black-teens-from-sanford-fl-brutally-beat-white-man-with-a-hammer/)

[irax]

In the end Justice and THE TRUTH will continue to be perverted.

Fixed.

Right now its tough for a lot of people. People feel like they are powerless. They will protest anything that they think is related to their problems. Well everything except themselves. There are a lot of mistakes made by both parties. The media has already decided who the victim is.

[EnemyS15]

Here we go again...

Two Black Teens Fueled By Hate From Al Sharpton Brutally Beat a White Man in Sanford, FL (http://www.dividedstates.com/two-black-teens-from-sanford-fl-brutally-beat-white-man-with-a-hammer/)

But it is for the cause. They only do it to show support for Treyvon Martin and his family
:facepalm:

[S14DB]

Here we go again...

Two Black Teens Fueled By Hate From Al Sharpton Brutally Beat a White Man in Sanford, FL (http://www.dividedstates.com/two-black-teens-from-sanford-fl-brutally-beat-white-man-with-a-hammer/)
Where's the evidence that they were at the rally?

[KiLLeR2001]

http://i.imgur.com/31WNa.gif

[Phlip]

Where's the evidence that they were at the rally?

Looking through that site he posted, there doesn't need to be any evidence of anything.
In fact, I am not all the way sure that it isn't one of those satire sites

[Pure_JDM]

It's only racist if whitey does it... If it's a black man, there isn't enough evidence... Just like the lack of fucking "racist" evidence in the Trayvon case. Oh wait, slavery happened, we all owe the black man for what their great grand parents went through (even HISPANIC Zimmerman).

[Phlip]

It's only racist if whitey does it... If it's a black man, there isn't enough evidence... Just like the lack of fucking "racist" evidence in the Trayvon case. Oh wait, slavery happened, we all owe the black man for what their great grand parents went through (even HISPANIC Zimmerman).

No one excused anyone for anything.
What was asked was a very valid question as to whether or not anyone had any proof that the boys were coming from the Sharpton thing. Please do not continue non-arguments against things that were not presented to the discussion. Besides, you’re just playing the slow-minded echo to things others have already said in this thread.

[S14DB]

Looking through that site he posted, there doesn't need to be any evidence of anything.
In fact, I am not all the way sure that it isn't one of those satire sites
All the creditable news sites make no mention of the rally.


Shake baby, shake baby, one, two...
Trayvon Martin Case: George Zimmerman Lawyer Cites 'Shaken Baby Syndrome' As Defense (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/06/george-zimmerman-shaken-baby_n_1408421.html)

[BOROSUN]

finally, some justice!
NBC fires producer over edited Zimmerman 911 call | The Upshot - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/upshot/nbc-fires-producer-over-edited-zimmerman-911-call-201124740.html)

[redline racer510]

This crap has gone too far. When people are being threatened or hurt all because you feel emotional about some kids death, you know it has gone too far. F*ck Sharpton and Jesse, I'm sure they mean well but when they speak in public they add more fuel to the media fire and have blown this incident waaaaaayyyyyyy out of proportion. People die from unjust reasons all the time, hell my cousin died 2 years ago because some thug "thought" it was some guy he knew. It isn't fair that Trayvon died because he looked like a thug but that's part of life and shit happens. Things do happen at the right/wrong time and place and I'm sure all of us have had these moments. Playing the race card is a cheap excuse for not being able to justify things and is pretty lame in my eyes. The fact that Sharpton and Jesse only come out of hiding when things like this happen show how they sadistically feed off of other peoples unfortunate incidents to make themselves gain more respect and fame from the public. When was the last time you saw any one of these men come out and protest and make speeches when a person of another race has been wrongfully killed, that's right never. They are hypocrites of racial equality and only do the things they do to benefit themselves. True fighters for truth and justice do so when all of the evidence makes it pretty clear that the victim was innocent, not jumping to conclusion and acting on no basis. The Reverend may want to quote the famous John 8:7 "Let him without sinn cast the first stone".

[HyperTek]

this just in.

Zimmerman's attorneys drop him. Attorneys for George Zimmerman drop representation in Florida shooting case | abc7.com (http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/national_world&id=8615286)

[Phlip]

this just in.

Zimmerman's attorneys drop him. Attorneys for George Zimmerman drop representation in Florida shooting case | abc7.com (http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/national_world&id=8615286)

It's cool, he is panhandling his ass off on the internets for his defense, he will get beaucoup moneys to pay for better ones.
[link] (http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/09/11104813-george-zimmerman-takes-to-web-to-raise-money-for-legal-costs-lawyers-confirm)


This just in, though:
Daniel Adkins' killer claims self-defense: Unarmed man shot, killed outside Arizona Taco Bell - Chicago News Report | Chicago News Blogs | Chicago Crime | News Blotter (http://www.chicagonewsreport.com/2012/04/daniel-adkins-killer-claims-self.html)

How come the same people who supported George Zimmerman aren't up in arms to support this guy's right to defend himself?

[Highway Riding]

George Zimmerman to face charges for Trayvon Martin (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/george-zimmerman-face-charges-trayvon-martin-death-reports-article-1.1059897)

Florida authorities are reportedly about to issue an arrest warrant for George Zimmerman for the slaying of Trayvon Martin.

Special prosecutor Angela Corey has called a press conference for 6 p.m. Wednesday in Jacksonville, Fla.

She will announce unspecified criminal charges, according to numerous reports in Washington

[Phlip]

Shit just got real for Zimmerman...
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/562642_10150785340147040_500467039_11985482_637651 505_n.jpg
He'll walk, but shit is serious now

[Corbic]

Per Florida.



Second Degree Murder

Second degree murder cases often involve a death that allegedly occurred because of a heat of passion or act that was so dangerous is warrants a criminal action be brought against the Defendant. The classic example is the spouse who finds their partner having an affair with another person and immediately acts to kill either the partner or the partner's lover. In order to convict a defendant in Florida of Second-degree murder, the State of Florida must prove the following three elements beyond a reasonable doubt:

The victim is dead;
The death was caused by the criminal act of the defendant;
There was an unlawful killing of the victim by an act imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind without regard for human life.

Understanding a second degree murder can be more confusing than the more serious first degree murder. The "criminal act" reference in the statute must be a single event or series of related actions arising from and performed pursuant to a single design or purpose of committing the murder or creating the dangerous condition that led to the death. Although second-degree murder can carry a potential incarceration of up to life in prison, the death penalty cannot be imposed on a person found guilty of second-degree murder.
Whether a Defendant's actions could have been reasonably foreseen as endangering a human life to the point of warranting a prosecution is a question for the jury and where a skilled defense lawyer can be most helpful. Examples may include the negligent supervision of a child or of the elderly by an adult, or other reckless behavior that led to the death of another person.

Unlike in a first degree or felony murder prosecution, a grand jury does not need to indict the defendant before a prosecution may begin. Second degree murders often are decided on the "common sense" of the jury. Whether a person's actions amount to the requisite intent or recklessness to warrant conviction is often left up to the jury's determination.

The defense of a second degree murder often comes from a defense's argument that the death was justified, excusable, or was self-defense. A Board Certified Criminal Trial Lawyer can help defend in your Florida Second Degree Murder charge. Each case is unique so contact us as soon as possible to discuss the charges.


msg lentgh

[KiLLeR2001]

Oh my if 2nd degree sticks I will have lost all hope for our judicial system. If Casey Anthony got to walk and Zimmerman gets life I will be speechless.

[Phlip]

Oh my if 2nd degree sticks I will have lost all hope for our judicial system. If Casey Anthony got to walk and Zimmerman gets life I will be speechless.

I lost faith in the judicial system years ago.
Zimmerman is walking on this shit...
his life is effectively ruined and he brought it all on himself by not heeding the "you don't need to do that," but at least he won't be a lifelong victim of forced sodomy.

[SimpleS14]

He'll walk, but he can never live his life like he use to.

[redline racer510]

I think Zimmerman is gonna walk on this one, he is probably going to change his name after the case is over and move to Puerto Rico

[Corbic]

I think Zimmerman is gonna walk on this one, he is probably going to change his name after the case is over and move to Puerto Rico

This is Florida, they will give him life without parole. Only makes sense, Casey walked and well..

Florida killer David Alan Gore to be executed Thursday - latimes.com (http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-florida-killer-executed-20120411,0,4647274.story)

A man who admitted killing two women and four girls is scheduled to be executed Thursday after spending almost 29 years in a Florida prison.

David Alan Gore on Thursday met with his mother and an ex-wife and is scheduled to be put to death at 6 p.m. EDT.

Gore, now 58, had confessed to killing four teenage girls and two women in the 1980s in the eastern Florida town of Vero Beach, but was condemned to death for killing 17-year-old Lynn Elliott. He was simultaneously serving five life sentences for the other slayings, the Florida Department of Corrections reported on its website.

On July 26, 1983, Gore and his cousin, Fred Waterfield, picked up Elliott and her 14-year-old friend who were hitchhiking. According to the Associated Press, the men took them at gunpoint to Gore's parents' house. Waterfield left and Gore raped the girls, who were bound in separate rooms. Waterfield is serving two life sentences in prison.

Elliott freed her legs and ran naked from the house, hands still tied behind her back. Gore, also naked, chased her, dragged her back toward the house as she kicked and screamed and then shot her twice in the head. Police were called after a boy witnessed the murder. Gore was caught and the other girl was rescued, the Associated Press reported.


28 years of fucking appeals. :picardfp:

[S14DB]

I think Zimmerman is gonna walk on this one, he is probably going to change his name after the case is over and move to Puerto Rico

You mean Peru?

[redline racer510]

some Latin American country you pick one lol.
we should have a poll and see what the majority thinks will happen

[S14DB]

some Latin American country you pick one lol.
we should have a poll and see what the majority thinks will happen

Zimmerman's mother is from Peru.

Can't run now...
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/120412-zimmerman-court-02.380;380;7;70.jpg

[imotion s14]

Look ma, no blood!

http://www.frugal-cafe.com/public_html/frugal-blog/frugal-cafe-blogzone/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/george-zimmerman-bloody-head.jpg

Oh wait...

And now the black community is saying it's fake because the metadata can be modified. It's a conspiracy to kill black people. The neighbors, the paramedics, the cops, they're all in cahoots. :lol

Because I still have no good reason to believe that Zimmerman was attacked.

It doesn't matter what you believe. Especially when it's contrary to the physical and recorded evidence at hand.

To me, it STILL sounds like he followed (against what he was told to do) Martin

You're either deaf or just blinding yourself to the facts.

Dispatch: we don't need you to do that
Zimmerman: OKAY.

Apparently OKAY used in this context no longer means acceptance or agreement.

From the point in the 911 call where Zimmerman says "he has something in his hand" + "he's checking me out" indicating the close proximity of Martin as he was walking towards Zimmerman's SUV. 40 seconds pass until he tells the dispatcher "shit he's running".

The distance between where his SUV was parked and the middle of the alleyway's walking path is approx 175ft.

It takes Zim approximately 7 seconds for him to vacate his SUV at that point. You can hear the gear selector go into park, the door comes open then closes shut.

That's almost 50 seconds head start Martin had. At walking at 2mph you can cover 175ft in 1 minute. You can reasonably expect he was able to cover that amount of distance with in the time frame.

At that distance he started to run, once he turned the corner of the town homes there is NO way Zimmerman could have caught up let alone manage to keep any sort of visual on Martin.

I guess Zimmerman broke the laws of physics too, right?

and confronted him,

If that was his intent why wait when the kid was 175 ft away when he had no possibility whatsoever of confronting him at such a great distance? Why not stop him before he could even walk past his SUV??

The home he was staying at was less than 200ft away at the beginning of the entrance to the alley.

At 7mph, a person could have covered 200ft in approximate 30 seconds.

Zimmerman stops pursuit the minute he was asked not to follow by dispatch. Again proven in the fact that he went from breathing hard to talking normal with in approximate 13 seconds. People running have a strained speech pattern. Zimmerman had a strain speech pattern then went back to finishing the phone call in a normal speech pattern. He even says he doesn't know where the kid is. I takes him approximate 1 minute 25 second to finish it up.

and when he was losing the ensuing scuffle shot him, perhaps from the embarrassment of getting his ass kicked. The difference is who started the confrontation, and who was armed (despite the fact that he should not have been as 'neighborhood watch').

How did Zimmerman catch up to confront Martin with such huge lead Martin had?? How'd he end up near the beginning of the alleyway closer to where he started running despite the 50 seconds start and the additional 1:25 it took for Zimmerman to calmly complete his call.

The only plausible explanation consistent with the FACTS is Martin backtracked to confront Zimmerman.

Lastly, I refuse to support this victim blaming bullshit; "he got followed and eventually shot for being black and suspicious" is just the same as "she got raped because she had on sexy clothes".

He got shot because he wanted to keep it real. Came back, saw Zimmerman looked like easy pickings and sized up him up for some revenge and sucker punched a guy who was armed.

But hey it takes a bit more thought to see the events that transpired rather then simply chalk it up to sensationalist bullshit that Zimmerman "stalked" and "cornered" (how do you corner someone in an open ended alleyway? :lol) and killed little Trayvon in cold blood.

Taco Bell Shooting Victim was Holding Leash, Not Weapon (http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news/crime/taco-bell-shooting-victim-was-holding-leash-not-weapon-4-4-2012)

BUBUBUBUBU IF THE OPPOSITE HAPPENED THE BLACK PERSON WOULD BE ARRESTED!!!11

[BOROSUN]

chill bros!!!

zimmerman has "black roots" so, it was a black on black crime. media no care anymore.

looks like zimmerman life got f'ed up by the media. when keeping it real goes wrong matrin decided to keep it real. school suspensions to punching bus driver from being shot dead.

George Zimmerman: Prelude to a shooting - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/george-zimmerman-prelude-shooting-194235114.html)

SANFORD, Florida (Reuters) - A pit bull named Big Boi began menacing George and Shellie Zimmerman in the fall of 2009.

The first time the dog ran free and cornered Shellie in their gated community in Sanford, Florida, George called the owner to complain. The second time, Big Boi frightened his mother-in-law's dog. Zimmerman called Seminole County Animal Services and bought pepper spray. The third time he saw the dog on the loose, he called again. An officer came to the house, county records show.

"Don't use pepper spray," he told the Zimmermans, according to a friend. "It'll take two or three seconds to take effect, but a quarter second for the dog to jump you," he said.

"Get a gun."

That November, the Zimmermans completed firearms training at a local lodge and received concealed-weapons gun permits. In early December, another source close to them told Reuters, the couple bought a pair of guns. George picked a Kel-Tec PF-9 9mm handgun, a popular, lightweight weapon.

By June 2011, Zimmerman's attention had shifted from a loose pit bull to a wave of robberies that rattled the community, called the Retreat at Twin Lakes. The homeowners association asked him to launch a neighborhood watch, and Zimmerman would begin to carry the Kel-Tec on his regular, dog-walking patrol - a violation of neighborhood watch guidelines but not a crime.

Few of his closest neighbors knew he carried a gun - until two months ago.

On February 26, George Zimmerman shot and killed unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin in what Zimmerman says was self-defense. The furor that ensued has consumed the country and prompted a re-examination of guns, race and self-defense laws enacted in nearly half the United States.

During the time Zimmerman was in hiding, his detractors defined him as a vigilante who had decided Martin was suspicious merely because he was black. After Zimmerman was finally arrested on a charge of second-degree murder more than six weeks after the shooting, prosecutors portrayed him as a violent and angry man who disregarded authority by pursuing the 17-year-old.

But a more nuanced portrait of Zimmerman has emerged from a Reuters investigation into Zimmerman's past and a series of incidents in the community in the months preceding the Martin shooting.

Based on extensive interviews with relatives, friends, neighbors, schoolmates and co-workers of Zimmerman in two states, law enforcement officials, and reviews of court documents and police reports, the story sheds new light on the man at the center of one of the most controversial homicide cases in America.

The 28-year-old insurance-fraud investigator comes from a deeply Catholic background and was taught in his early years to do right by those less fortunate. He was raised in a racially integrated household and himself has black roots through an Afro-Peruvian great-grandfather - the father of the maternal grandmother who helped raise him.

A criminal justice student who aspired to become a judge, Zimmerman also concerned himself with the safety of his neighbors after a series of break-ins committed by young African-American men.

Though civil rights demonstrators have argued Zimmerman should not have prejudged Martin, one black neighbor of the Zimmermans said recent history should be taken into account.

"Let's talk about the elephant in the room. I'm black, OK?" the woman said, declining to be identified because she anticipated backlash due to her race. She leaned in to look a reporter directly in the eyes. "There were black boys robbing houses in this neighborhood," she said. "That's why George was suspicious of Trayvon Martin."

"MIXED" HOUSEHOLD

George Michael Zimmerman was born in 1983 to Robert and Gladys Zimmerman, the third of four children. Robert Zimmerman Sr. was a U.S. Army veteran who served in Vietnam in 1970, and was stationed at Fort Myer in Arlington, Virginia, in 1975 with Gladys Mesa's brother George. Zimmerman Sr. also served two tours in Korea, and spent the final 10 years of his 22-year military career in the Pentagon, working for the Department of Defense, a family member said.

In his final years in Virginia before retiring to Florida, Robert Zimmerman served as a magistrate in Fairfax County's 19th Judicial District.

Robert and Gladys met in January 1975, when George Mesa brought along his army buddy to his sister's birthday party. She was visiting from Peru, on vacation from her job there as a physical education teacher. Robert was a Baptist, Gladys was Catholic. They soon married, in a Catholic ceremony in Alexandria, and moved to nearby Manassas.

Gladys came to lead a small but growing Catholic Hispanic enclave within the All Saints Catholic Church parish in the late 1970s, where she was involved in the church's outreach programs. Gladys would bring young George along with her on "home visits" to poor families, said a family friend, Teresa Post.

"It was part of their upbringing to know that there are people in need, people more in need than themselves," said Post, a Peruvian immigrant who lived with the Zimmermans for a time.

Post recalls evening prayers before dinner in the ethnically diverse Zimmerman household, which included siblings Robert Jr., Grace, and Dawn. "It wasn't only white or only Hispanic or only black - it was mixed," she said.

Zimmerman's maternal grandmother, Cristina, who had lived with the Zimmermans since 1978, worked as a babysitter for years during Zimmerman's childhood. For several years she cared for two African-American girls who ate their meals at the Zimmerman house and went back and forth to school each day with the Zimmerman children.

"They were part of the household for years, until they were old enough to be on their own," Post said.

Zimmerman served as an altar boy at All Saints from age 7 to 17, church members said.

"He wasn't the type where, you know, 'I'm being forced to do this,' and a dragging-his-feet Catholic," said Sandra Vega, who went to high school with George and his siblings. "He was an altar boy for years, and then worked in the rectory too. He has a really good heart."

George grew up bilingual, and by age 10 he was often called to the Haydon Elementary School principal's office to act as a translator between administrators and immigrant parents. At 14 he became obsessed with becoming a Marine, a relative said, joining the after-school ROTC program at Grace E. Metz Middle School and polishing his boots by night. At 15, he worked three part-time jobs - in a Mexican restaurant, for the rectory, and washing cars - on nights and weekends, to save up for a car.

After graduating from Osbourn High School in 2001, Zimmerman moved to Lake Mary, Florida, a town neighboring Sanford. His parents purchased a retirement home there in 2002, in part to bring Cristina, who suffers from arthritis, to a warmer climate.

YOUNG INSURANCE AGENT

On his own at 18, George got a job at an insurance agency and began to take classes at night to earn a license to sell insurance. He grew friendly with a real estate agent named Lee Ann Benjamin, who shared office space in the building, and later her husband, John Donnelly, a Sanford attorney.

"George impressed me right off the bat as just a real go-getter," Donnelly said. "He was working days and taking all these classes at night, passing all the insurance classes, not just for home insurance, but auto insurance and everything. He wanted to open his own office - and he did."

In 2004, Zimmerman partnered with an African-American friend and opened up an Allstate insurance satellite office, Donnelly said.

Then came 2005, and a series of troubles. Zimmerman's business failed, he was arrested, and he broke off an engagement with a woman who filed a restraining order against him.

That July, Zimmerman was charged with resisting arrest, violence, and battery of an officer after shoving an undercover alcohol-control agent who was arresting an under-age friend of Zimmerman's at a bar. He avoided conviction by agreeing to participate in a pre-trial diversion program that included anger-management classes.

In August, Zimmerman's fiancee at the time, Veronica Zuazo, filed a civil motion for a restraining order alleging domestic violence. Zimmerman reciprocated with his own order on the same grounds, and both orders were granted. The relationship ended.

In 2007 he married Shellie Dean, a licensed cosmetologist, and in 2009 the couple rented a townhouse in the Retreat at Twin Lakes. Zimmerman had bounced from job to job for a couple of years, working at a car dealership and a mortgage company. At times, according to testimony from Shellie at a bond hearing for Zimmerman last week, the couple filed for unemployment benefits.

Zimmerman enrolled in Seminole State College in 2009, and in December 2011 he was permitted to participate in a school graduation ceremony, despite being a course credit shy of his associate's degree in criminal justice. Zimmerman was completing that course credit when the shooting occurred.

On March 22, nearly a month after the shooting and with the controversy by then swirling nationwide, the school issued a press release saying it was taking the "unusual, but necessary" step of withdrawing Zimmerman's enrollment, citing "the safety of our students on campus as well as for Mr. Zimmerman."

A NEIGHBORHOOD IN FEAR

By the summer of 2011, Twin Lakes was experiencing a rash of burglaries and break-ins. Previously a family-friendly, first-time homeowner community, it was devastated by the recession that hit the Florida housing market, and transient renters began to occupy some of the 263 town houses in the complex. Vandalism and occasional drug activity were reported, and home values plunged. One resident who bought his home in 2006 for $250,000 said it was worth $80,000 today.

At least eight burglaries were reported within Twin Lakes in the 14 months prior to the Trayvon Martin shooting, according to the Sanford Police Department. Yet in a series of interviews, Twin Lakes residents said dozens of reports of attempted break-ins and would-be burglars casing homes had created an atmosphere of growing fear in the neighborhood.

In several of the incidents, witnesses identified the suspects to police as young black men. Twin Lakes is about 50 percent white, with an African-American and Hispanic population of about 20 percent each, roughly similar to the surrounding city of Sanford, according to U.S. Census data.

One morning in July 2011, a black teenager walked up to Zimmerman's front porch and stole a bicycle, neighbors told Reuters. A police report was taken, though the bicycle was not recovered.

But it was the August incursion into the home of Olivia Bertalan that really troubled the neighborhood, particularly Zimmerman. Shellie was home most days, taking online courses towards certification as a registered nurse.

On August 3, Bertalan was at home with her infant son while her husband, Michael, was at work. She watched from a downstairs window, she said, as two black men repeatedly rang her doorbell and then entered through a sliding door at the back of the house. She ran upstairs, locked herself inside the boy's bedroom, and called a police dispatcher, whispering frantically.

"I said, 'What am I supposed to do? I hear them coming up the stairs!'" she told Reuters. Bertalan tried to coo her crying child into silence and armed herself with a pair of rusty scissors.

Police arrived just as the burglars - who had been trying to disconnect the couple's television - fled out a back door. Shellie Zimmerman saw a black male teen running through her backyard and reported it to police.

After police left Bertalan, George Zimmerman arrived at the front door in a shirt and tie, she said. He gave her his contact numbers on an index card and invited her to visit his wife if she ever felt unsafe. He returned later and gave her a stronger lock to bolster the sliding door that had been forced open.

"He was so mellow and calm, very helpful and very, very sweet," she said last week. "We didn't really know George at first, but after the break-in we talked to him on a daily basis. People were freaked out. It wasn't just George calling police ... we were calling police at least once a week."

In September, a group of neighbors including Zimmerman approached the homeowners association with their concerns, she said. Zimmerman was asked to head up a new neighborhood watch. He agreed.

"PLEASE CONTACT OUR CAPTAIN"

Police had advised Bertalan to get a dog. She and her husband decided to move out instead, and left two days before the shooting. Zimmerman took the advice.

"He'd already had a mutt that he walked around the neighborhood every night - man, he loved that dog - but after that home invasion he also got a Rottweiler," said Jorge Rodriguez, a friend and neighbor of the Zimmermans.

Around the same time, Zimmerman also gave Rodriguez and his wife, Audria, his contact information, so they could reach him day or night. Rodriguez showed the index card to Reuters. In neat cursive was a list of George and Shellie's home number and cell phones, as well as their emails.

Less than two weeks later, another Twin Lakes home was burglarized, police reports show. Two weeks after that, a home under construction was vandalized.

The Retreat at Twin Lakes e-newsletter for February 2012 noted: "The Sanford PD has announced an increased patrol within our neighborhood ... during peak crime hours.

"If you've been a victim of a crime in the community, after calling police, please contact our captain, George Zimmerman."

EMMANUEL BURGESS - SETTING THE STAGE

On February 2, 2012, Zimmerman placed a call to Sanford police after spotting a young black man he recognized peering into the windows of a neighbor's empty home, according to several friends and neighbors.

"I don't know what he's doing. I don't want to approach him, personally," Zimmerman said in the call, which was recorded. The dispatcher advised him that a patrol car was on the way. By the time police arrived, according to the dispatch report, the suspect had fled.

On February 6, the home of another Twin Lakes resident, Tatiana Demeacis, was burglarized. Two roofers working directly across the street said they saw two African-American men lingering in the yard at the time of the break-in. A new laptop and some gold jewelry were stolen. One of the roofers called police the next day after spotting one of the suspects among a group of male teenagers, three black and one white, on bicycles.

Police found Demeacis's laptop in the backpack of 18-year-old Emmanuel Burgess, police reports show, and charged him with dealing in stolen property. Burgess was the same man Zimmerman had spotted on February 2.

Burgess had committed a series of burglaries on the other side of town in 2008 and 2009, pleaded guilty to several, and spent all of 2010 incarcerated in a juvenile facility, his attorney said. He is now in jail on parole violations.

Three days after Burgess was arrested, Zimmerman's grandmother was hospitalized for an infection, and the following week his father was also admitted for a heart condition. Zimmerman spent a number of those nights on a hospital room couch.

Ten days after his father was hospitalized, Zimmerman noticed another young man in the neighborhood, acting in a way he found familiar, so he made another call to police.

"We've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy," Zimmerman said, as Trayvon Martin returned home from the store.

The last time Zimmerman had called police, to report Burgess, he followed protocol and waited for police to arrive. They were too late, and Burgess got away.

This time, Zimmerman was not so patient, and he disregarded police advice against pursuing Martin.

"These assholes," he muttered in an aside, "they always get away."

After the phone call ended, several minutes passed when the movements of Zimmerman and Martin remain a mystery.

Moments later, Martin lay dead with a bullet in his chest.

(Editing by David Adams, Daniel Trotta and Prudence Crowther)

[axiomatik]

Here's the thing with this case. "Stand your ground" law or no law, with the ambiguity surrounding the event, Zimmerman should be tried in a court and given the chance to defend himself with proper representation. If he is innocent, let the court decide. If he is guilty, let the court decide. But for the Prosecutor's office to just stand around and do nothing is an injustice to the victim's family. Maybe Martin did attack Zimmerman, maybe Zimmerman started it, but witnesses should be called to testify in a court of law, and a Jury should decide. The decision should not be made behind closed doors.

Now, what the prosecutor decides to charge him with is a different question. (I know they already chose 2nd Degree Murder). But my point is, Zimmerman should have been charged with at least manslaughter to begin with and the case decided in a court, not behind the closed doors of the prosecutor's office, and not in the media.

[Corbic]

Look ma, no blood!

http://www.frugal-cafe.com/public_html/frugal-blog/frugal-cafe-blogzone/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/george-zimmerman-bloody-head.jpg

Oh wait...

And now the black community is saying it's fake because the metadata can be modified. It's a conspiracy to kill black people. The neighbors, the paramedics, the cops, they're all in cahoots. :lol



It doesn't matter what you believe. Especially when it's contrary to the physical and recorded evidence at hand.




http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/7/2009/06/504x_52015421.jpg

Nuff Said.

[BarrigaS14]

Here's the thing with this case. "Stand your ground" law or no law, with the ambiguity surrounding the event, Zimmerman should be tried in a court and given the chance to defend himself with proper representation. If he is innocent, let the court decide. If he is guilty, let the court decide. But for the Prosecutor's office to just stand around and do nothing is an injustice to the victim's family. Maybe Martin did attack Zimmerman, maybe Zimmerman started it, but witnesses should be called to testify in a court of law, and a Jury should decide. The decision should not be made behind closed doors.

Now, what the prosecutor decides to charge him with is a different question. (I know they already chose 2nd Degree Murder). But my point is, Zimmerman should have been charged with at least manslaughter to begin with and the case decided in a court, not behind the closed doors of the prosecutor's office, and not in the media.

The thing with the stand your ground law, many departments are afraid to charge right off the bat with something. So they throw it up tot he DA and let them decide if charges be pressed or not. My department does that when the situation is so iffy and needs specialized eyes to look at everything that is there.

[axiomatik]

If the situation is ambiguous, I think charges should be filed. One person shot another person. The case should be decided in a public court of law. If the circumstances were obvious (for example, a home invasion), then it is appropriate to not file charges. But if no one is clear what the circumstances were and what the motivations were, a Jury should be involved.

[Corbic]

If the situation is ambiguous, I think charges should be filed. One person shot another person. The case should be decided in a public court of law. If the circumstances were obvious (for example, a home invasion), then it is appropriate to not file charges. But if no one is clear what the circumstances were and what the motivations were, a Jury should be involved.

And what was this case?

[axiomatik]

And what was this case?

see previous:

Here's the thing with this case. "Stand your ground" law or no law, with the ambiguity surrounding the event, Zimmerman should be tried in a court and given the chance to defend himself with proper representation. If he is innocent, let the court decide. If he is guilty, let the court decide. But for the Prosecutor's office to just stand around and do nothing is an injustice to the victim's family. Maybe Martin did attack Zimmerman, maybe Zimmerman started it, but witnesses should be called to testify in a court of law, and a Jury should decide. The decision should not be made behind closed doors.

[Phlip]

Shellie Zimmerman, wife of Trayvon Martin killer, arrested on perjury charge - U.S. News (http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/12/12189381-shellie-zimmerman-wife-of-trayvon-martin-killer-arrested-on-perjury-charge?lite/)

Shit gets deeper

[TheWolf]

Angela Cory is digging her own grave with this one.

[cgtdream]

You guys are still talking about this...shit this crap is dead enough already so let it die in peace please

[driftsucky]

This...verbatim:
That has been my position all along.
If George Zimmerman had not gotten out of his car to confront him (as outlined in EVERY neighborhood watch program), had not been armed while doing neighborhood watch (ditto), completing his duties to simply observe and report, then we’re probably not having this conversation and his life wouldn’t be pretty much ruined, which it will be, even if he comes off of this charged with nothing at all which he probably will. What this brings attention to, however, is a shittily written law that apparently allows loopholes in which someone can confront someone – perhaps even physically – and shoot that person dead when that confrontation does not go as intended. That is what really needs to change here. It is too late to bring back those killed under it, and that sucks just as much.
Wait, I don't have the genetic makeup to have thoughts like this, perhaps I should not be in this thread, I am supposed to be out committing some crimes and making excuses for why I can't get ahead. Sure, this runs totally counter to my degree, house, family and continued gainful employment, but apparently I am not really black then?

I find it interesting how many "he was a black hoodlum" sort of responses that are in here. Interesting because it's as if what he did in his past justifies him getting shot for nothing.

and


Originally Posted by axiomatik http://zilvia.net/f/images/zilvia/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://zilvia.net/f/loud-noises/442735-team-zimmerman-vs-team-martin-6.html#post4703847)
Here's the thing with this case. "Stand your ground" law or no law, with the ambiguity surrounding the event, Zimmerman should be tried in a court and given the chance to defend himself with proper representation. If he is innocent, let the court decide. If he is guilty, let the court decide. But for the Prosecutor's office to just stand around and do nothing is an injustice to the victim's family. Maybe Martin did attack Zimmerman, maybe Zimmerman started it, but witnesses should be called to testify in a court of law, and a Jury should decide. The decision should not be made behind closed doors.

[imotion s14]

Funny I thought he was shot because he thought the feeling of being antagonized justified assault and battery on a person who just happened to be armed.

New video to dissect. Discuss.

[Phlip]

Medical records: George Zimmerman had black eyes, painful broken nose but no head trauma - Trayvon Martin - MiamiHerald.com (http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/07/03/2880246/doctor-george-zimmerman-had-black.html)


http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/05/12579030-florida-judge-sets-bond-at-1-million-for-george-zimmerman?lite

[ineedone]

George Zimmerman Alleged Sexual Assault - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/george-zimmerman-alleged-sexual-assault-2012-7)

[Highway Riding]

While disgusting as it may be that has no relevance to the case...

[S14DB]

While disgusting as it may be that has no relevance to the case...

Character.

[ineedone]

George Zimmerman new evidence Trayvon Martin - Orlando Sentinel (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-09-19/news/os-george-zimmerman-evidence-new-20120919_1_george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-cell-phone-records)

Nothing to crazy or eye opening. Just that no Trayvon DNA on Zimmerman's gun, but both had each others DNA on their clothing.

[imotion s14]

Trial is about to start.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/sites/default/files/2012/03/trayvon_martin.jpg

http://www.gannett-cdn.com/media/USATODAY/GenericImages/2013/02/24/xxx-trayvon-close-up-4_3_r536_c534.jpg?1b79b3da202957124496e3768cfb7b67 cdb10c81

Is it so difficult for the media to use the 2nd picture? Guess it doesn't fit their narrative when the picture is that of a biological adult.

[Corbic]

Yet again we all sit back and watch the Florida sitcom. Flesh eating bathsalt zombies, kidnapped cuban childern and molested murdering party moms aside... We should be hearing a verdict in the "agravated child abuse" case of State v Zimmerman pretty soon.


Regardless of your opinion,

Whether Zimmy is guilty of Murder/Agravated Childabuse / Manslaughter...


..or just guilty of being the wrong skin color while defending himself from a situation that got out of hand because of a gangsta wannabie teenager with attitude....

What do you think the all women jurry of 6 is going to return in this National display of race politicking and Florida fail?



I bet they return a decision of guilty which will get overturned in 5 years.

[silviaks2nr]

Either way there will be a riot or riots.

[silviaks2nr]

You won't see this on CNN

Media blackout: Georgia man killed in black-on-white hate crime attack - Norfolk Crime | Examiner.com (http://www.examiner.com/article/media-blackout-georgia-man-killed-black-on-white-hate-crime-attack)

[bc.]

It's all a sick fucking joke, all of it. Reminds me of Watchmen for some reason.

[S14DB]

You won't see this on CNN

Media blackout: Georgia man killed in black-on-white hate crime attack - Norfolk Crime | Examiner.com (http://www.examiner.com/article/media-blackout-georgia-man-killed-black-on-white-hate-crime-attack)

Examiner.com is a content destination powered by over 100,000+ independent contributors. Every week our contributors post thousands of informative and entertaining articles designed to feed your curiosity on the subjects that you crave.


I know why...

[AFSil80]

I know why...

Because it's not sensational news?

That in mind, I wonder how many black teens were murdered in Chicago since this trial started.

[imotion s14]

Yet again we all sit back and watch the Florida sitcom. Flesh eating bathsalt zombies, kidnapped cuban childern and molested murdering party moms aside... We should be hearing a verdict in the "agravated child abuse" case of State v Zimmerman pretty soon.


Regardless of your opinion,

Whether Zimmy is guilty of Murder/Agravated Childabuse / Manslaughter...


..or just guilty of being the wrong skin color while defending himself from a situation that got out of hand because of a gangsta wannabie teenager with attitude....

What do you think the all women jurry of 6 is going to return in this National display of race politicking and Florida fail?



I bet they return a decision of guilty which will get overturned in 5 years.

He'll be acquitted.

I had doubts about Zimmerman's complete story. But after seeing the Defense closing, I'm 100% certain that Trayvon came out of the darkness to confront Zimmerman.

My first doubt was how did the fight end where it ended if Zim was walking back to his truck via the cut through? That was answered by the Def closing animation. It showed a trail of dropped items that was marked by CSI from the top of the "T" intersection to the final spot.

[imotion s14]

No Guilty.

It's over.

[240o'clock]

No Guilty.

It's over.

I already knew he wasnt going to be guilty. Any white man saying hes "Neighborhood Watch" will get the jury on his side, Btw the system being corrupt doesnt help.

[imotion s14]

In court is all about what you can prove. The prosecution couldn't prove shit.

[AFSil80]

And that's why you don't just randomly lash out at people...you never know who's packing.

[xoxide]

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j259/sprinter1/995397_563419390371420_1058776899_n_zps816553e4.pn g (http://s82.photobucket.com/user/sprinter1/media/995397_563419390371420_1058776899_n_zps816553e4.pn g.html)

[Corbic]

I already knew he wasnt going to be guilty. Any white man saying hes "Neighborhood Watch" will get the jury on his side, Btw the system being corrupt doesnt help.

He's Hispanic.

This going to trial just shows how corrupt and politically driven thus case was.

[Corbic]

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j259/sprinter1/995397_563419390371420_1058776899_n_zps816553e4.pn g (http://s82.photobucket.com/user/sprinter1/media/995397_563419390371420_1058776899_n_zps816553e4.pn g.html)

He needs the jury from Casy Anthony's trial.

[thizzen4]

tyler ross Zimmerman name

[driftminds13]

http://i.imgur.com/Bj7ei7V.gif

[Matej]

From all the data and evidence presented, it seemed that the police actually did its job quite thoroughly when they let Zimmerman go the first time around, before everyone took up their torches and pitchforks and decided that he needs to be tried for murder, on the sole basis of the race card being thrown in.

I also thought it was ironic how the judge decided that Treyvon's school history, suspension, and juvenile rap sheet were irrelevant to the case. If he was a squeaky clean straight-A student, I bet she would be whistling a different tune and the media would be shoving it in our faces.

What a farce this whole ordeal has been.

[jamg]

He needs the jury from Casy Anthony's trial.

i didn't think she was guilty either.

first degree murder.... no, not that.

manslaughter, YES. including her other charges, she would have served a double digit sentence.

too bad the prosecution team tried to charge her with more than what they should have.

[heychris]

I only got 1 thing to say.....

4 minutes....

4 minutes from the time Trayvon began running to the start of physical altercation. Why didn't he just run away?

Thank goodness for a fair justice system in central Florida...

Ch

Sent using XT912 M

[Corbic]

i didn't think she was guilty either.

first degree murder.... no, not that.

manslaughter, YES. including her other charges, she would have served a double digit sentence.

too bad the prosecution team tried to charge her with more than what they should have.

Like Felony Muder? :rolleyes:

[Corbic]

I also thought it was ironic how the judge decided that Treyvon's school history, suspension, and juvenile rap sheet were irrelevant to the case. If he was a squeaky clean straight-A student, I bet she would be whistling a different tune and the media would be shoving it in our faces.

What a farce this whole ordeal has been.


I read somewhere about how the defense wanted to submit text and facebook evidence about all the fist fights he'd been in and how he fancied himself a bad ass.

But we got no problem painting Zimmy as a racist vigilante.

People keep forgetting, just cause someone annoys your, creeps you out, or follows you... doesn't give you the right to fist fight them.

Getting into fights with strangers is bad news... god only knows if they have a knife or a gun and no matter how badass you are, you're not made of kevlar.

[acslater9]

This shouldn't surprise anyone, the defense did a great job. And I think he was not guilty from watching the entire trial myself. I knew nothing about this case prior till the beginning of this trail.

[Phlip]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/bec8d5eabd9617d44157f27bc53aefe2/tumblr_mpwmmo8m8G1qczrodo1_400.gif

[S14DB]

He's Hispanic.

This going to trial just shows how corrupt and politically driven thus case was.

He's Hispanic?

[jamg]

Like Felony Muder? :rolleyes:

thought that was guilty by association.

like those 4 teens on FL who shot and killed someone they robbed. blasted him in the face.

all 4 of them got first degree.

[heychris]

Why weren't Trayvon Martins parents in the court when the verdict came in?

Ch

Sent using XT912 M

[Z33dori]

He's Hispanic?
white/hispanic lol

[S14DB]

white/hispanic lol

So, he's white. No one would care about this case if he was Hispanic.

[ZenkiKid]

This shouldn't surprise anyone, the defense did a great job. And I think he was not guilty from watching the entire trial myself. I knew nothing about this case prior till the beginning of this trail.


Before I go any further. I just want to say that I am a minority, all issues of race aside.....


Agreed. Great defense + Shitty prosecutors = Not guilty.

By simple legal definition of manslaughter and second degree murder, he didn't do either according to evidence and testimonies.

Believe it or not, our country's laws are cut and dry, its just the people running the legal system who make it look bad.

I knew that he wasnt gonna be guilty once the topic of the 9/11 calls came in and those who testified confirmed that those screams were Zimmermans voice.

[ghoti]

He's Hispanic?

White Dad Peruvian Mom = Hispanic

let me make a table for you to remove doubts:

White + White = White

White + Hispanic= Hispanic e.g. George Zimmerman

White + Black = Black e.g Obama or Bob Marley

White + Asian = Asian e.g. Maggie Q

[S14DB]

White Dad Peruvian Mom = Hispanic

let me make a table for you to remove doubts:

White + White = White

White + Hispanic= Hispanic e.g. George Zimmerman

White + Black = Black e.g Obama or Bob Marley

White + Asian = Asian e.g. Maggie Q
Zimmerman = White
White Dad = White
Hispanic Dad = Hispanic

Media doesn't care about Minority on Minority crime...

[KiLLeR2001]

Zimmerman was clearly in fear of his life. I could tell by the 911 calls and his screams for help. I've lived in a low income predominantly black neighborhood for many years as the only white kid. And if you look at someone the wrong way that's grounds for a fight, it's just the way it is. I knew kids that were 15 / 16 years old that could beat up grown men no problem.

When you live in shitty situations for long periods of time you learn to fight for yourself and you get good at it. Treyvon utilized his "hood" mentality in this case. He didn't like how Zimmerman was following him so he lost him and hid, and then waited to catch him off guard when he turns his back. This has happened to me before, I've been jumped, I know how it works. Treyvon wanted to teach this guy a lesson, and it would have worked except he wasn't expecting him to be packing heat. Fatal mistake.

I'm tired of the race card being thrown around, this is way bigger than that. This is another stab at gun control laws. Now they have the black community right where they want them. "Hey we need guns off the streets so lunatics like Zimmerman don't kill off all the innocent black children." Then you refer to this case for emotional support.

[Corbic]

thought that was guilty by association.

like those 4 teens on FL who shot and killed someone they robbed. blasted him in the face.

all 4 of them got first degree.

Felony Murder is Murder 3, which is causing the death of another during the commission of a fellony.

So I rob grandma (fellony), knock her over and she dies. I never intended to hurt her, let alone kill her, but because I did this while committing a fellony it's now murder.


In Zims case the prosecution tried to argue that zimmerman commited felony murder because he shot a "child" which is child abuse, a felony. The "child" then died which is felony murder.

Ironically, Casey's kid was clearly in an abusive situation and died as a result. But this wasn't Casey's fault... she was supposidly molested as a child and thus its cool that she was just to busy lying to police and partying to give a fuck.

[imotion s14]

Felony Murder is Murder 3, which is causing the death of another during the commission of a fellony.

So I rob grandma (fellony), knock her over and she dies. I never intended to hurt her, let alone kill her, but because I did this while committing a fellony it's now murder.


In Zims case the prosecution tried to argue that zimmerman commited felony murder because he shot a "child" which is child abuse, a felony. The "child" then died which is felony murder.

Ironically, Casey's kid was clearly in an abusive situation and died as a result. But this wasn't Casey's fault... she was supposidly molested as a child and thus its cool that she was just to busy lying to police and partying to give a fuck.

he got 2nd Degree Murder, they tried to tack on Manslaughter and Felony Murder but only Manslaughter was allowed.

[Corbic]

he got 2nd Degree Murder, they tried to tack on Manslaughter and Felony Murder but only Manslaughter was allowed.

I'm well aware. It's simply the audacity of even trying to spin this as Felony Murder.
Murder 2 was simply outrageous as well. Watching the trial, I kept thinking... is this all just a PR stunt for the Prosecution to appease the black community?

Also, what does that say about us culturally that because Zimmerman was acquitted communities had to brace for riots and violence? Whether they happen or not is irrelevant. Was anyone concerned about riots following the Casey Anthony trial, or the OJ trial?



Until people start acting and treating each other equally, and having equal expectations of everyone, there never will be equality in this country.

[silviasandbeer]

Why weren't Trayvon Martins parents in the court when the verdict came in?

Ch

Sent using XT912 M


its my understanding that the family got death threats saying that if zimmerman was found guilty that the trayvon family wouldnt "make it out the courthouse alive"

[Corbic]

its my understanding that the family got death threats saying that if zimmerman was found guilty that the trayvon family wouldnt "make it out the courthouse alive"

I really doubt that.


I can however understand not wanting to be there. It would be a lot to emotionally take in. Add in the media zone, and it would just be a disgusting place to be.

Guilty - people cheer but... what is there to cheer about, the lives of two young men are forever ruined/lost.

Not Guilty - the man that killed your kid gets to walk because it was your kids own damn fault.

Reminds me of Felice Brother - Greatest Show on Earth

"Tell me mama, so it seems; your son was a bad Marine, they are shipping him home tonight.

Tell me mama, where is your other son, in jail with the other one? You must have raised them wrong"

8Lbm4r1KN9U

[bc.]

So, he's white. No one would care about this case if he was Hispanic.

that is why they had to coin the term "white hispanic" to poke the race fire.

The dude is like purto rican, or some island down there.

[S14DB]

that is why they had to coin the term "white hispanic" to poke the race fire.

The dude is like purto rican, or some island down there.
I thought that's what they called Castilians.

I think she's Columbian.

[onehundredoctane]

Verdict reached. Parents and NAACP aren't happy. Too bad, hate it for ya.

What I can't stand is CNN, MSNBC, you name it, (other than Fox News) are just running the same shit. Move on. Trail is over, find something else to report about. There are bigger problems in the world. I mean, you don't see anyone, anywhere, reporting on how many youth are killed each week in Chicago. . . lets start there, then worry abou the rest of the U.S.

[Corbic]

Verdict reached. Parents and NAACP aren't happy. Too bad, hate it for ya.

What I can't stand is CNN, MSNBC, you name it, (other than Fox News) are just running the same shit. Move on. Trail is over, find something else to report about. There are bigger problems in the world. I mean, you don't see anyone, anywhere, reporting on how many youth are killed each week in Chicago. . . lets start there, then worry abou the rest of the U.S.

Now they want the DOJ to step in and drum up bogus civil liberties charges.

At what point can Zim sue for malicious prosecution, deflation of character, double jepordy and.... discrimination.

The only reason he is being singled out is because he's "white".

[Corbic]

Watching new now. Georgie looks Mexican to me.

[AFSil80]

They won't be able to paint him as a racist with documented proof that says otherwise.

Zimmerman: Sanford Police Covered Up Beating Of Black Homeless Man By White Officer « CBS Tampa (http://tampa.cbslocal.com/2012/05/23/zimmerman-sanford-police-covered-up-beating-of-black-homeless-man-by-white-officer/)

[imotion s14]

He's a white Hispanic.. before being Hispanic automatically made you "brown".

[onehundredoctane]

This is fun.

[ghoti]

White Dad Peruvian Mom = Hispanic

let me make a table for you to remove doubts:

White + White = White

White + Hispanic= Hispanic e.g. George Zimmerman

White + Black = Black e.g Obama or Bob Marley

White + Asian = Asian e.g. Maggie Q

randomstuffsoicanpost

[S14DB]

Verdict reached. Parents and NAACP aren't happy. Too bad, hate it for ya.

What I can't stand is CNN, MSNBC, you name it, (other than Fox News) are just running the same shit. Move on. Trail is over, find something else to report about. There are bigger problems in the world. I mean, you don't see anyone, anywhere, reporting on how many youth are killed each week in Chicago. . . lets start there, then worry abou the rest of the U.S.

Other than Fox News? They're going on about how the Martins can sue him and the DOJ will investigate too...

All of them are sad to see their cash cow go away.

[irax]

bF-Ax5E8EJc

[Cash]

Jason Riley: Race, Politics and the Zimmerman Trial - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323394504578608182550247030.html?m od=trending_now_2)

[Matej]

'Jeantel' got offered a full ride through college. :(

That is much more riot-worthy.

[Corbic]

'Jeantel' got offered a full ride through college. :(

That is much more riot-worthy.

University of Phoenix?

[S14DB]

University of Phoenix?
Any HBCU from Tom Joyner.

[xilovelsdx]

'Jeantel' got offered a full ride through college. :(

That is much more riot-worthy.

Dude you have to be fucking kidding me.

[dudermagee]

Meh, 5 bucks says she has a baby and drops out in a year.

[Corbic]

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BPU1xDHCEAAfwg5.jpg

[Matej]

Zimmerman should have just let Trayvon bash his head to death.
Then nobody would know.

[Akito86]

I know right. Mean while in CA
Got stuck in traffic since a handful of drop outs were protesting which requires throwing stuff and screaming at passing by cars to get attention. Really?
Little do they know a 19year old black kid(since race "matters" now) shot his whole family and himself because he was grounded because of bad school behavior sigh...
CA please quit trying to act tough with riots we are making fool of ourselves.

[Tempo]

Never should have been a gun involved in the first place, and if there were I doubt the kid would have kept "assaulting" him once it was out in pain sight.

Only a real asshole would shoot an unarmed kid who was minding his own business until he got approached.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk 2

[irax]

Never should have been a gun involved in the first place, and if there were I doubt the kid would have kept "assaulting" him once it was out in pain sight.

Only a real asshole would shoot an unarmed kid who was minding his own business until he got approached.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk 2

Ohhh... it's not like we all haven't fucking thought of that. You change any one part of the event and of course it will unfold with different resolve. That's like looking on the ground while you step on a pile of shit and then keep walking. Once you got home and smelled the shit you think to your self "man I should of just stepped over it, now my house smells like dog shit" right before you kill your self.

Way to say absolutely nothing and give your self a congratulatory pat on the back.

Only a real asshole would instigate a fight when they could just keep on fucking walking home.

[silviaks2nr]

http://southparkstudios.mtvnimages.com/images/shows/southpark/vertical_video/season_14/sp_1411_clip05.jpg

[ineedone]

I know right. Mean while in CA
Got stuck in traffic since a handful of drop outs were protesting which requires throwing stuff and screaming at passing by cars to get attention. Really?
Little do they know a 19year old black kid(since race "matters" now) shot his whole family and himself because he was grounded because of bad school behavior sigh...
CA please quit trying to act tough with riots we are making fool of ourselves.

I am willing to bet my entire education that there was more to that kid's story then just bad school behavior... but hey he is black so I guess he is just predisposed to killing people... :duh:

As far as the Zimmerman case - I love all you criminal law experts out there. Florida law is the reason he was acquitted. Well, that and the fact that the jury was primarily white and self identified with the defense witnesses exponentially more than the prosecution.

As for the DOJ case. There is a difference between being a racist and violating someones civil rights based on race. I have no doubt in my mind Zimmerman was not a "racist." However, I also have no doubt in my mind that the only reason he followed/stalked and instigated the incident with Martin was because Martin was a black kid. This presents an interesting legal issue for the federal civil rights attorneys. I still believe that they will not bring any charges.

Generally speaking, these cases are only brought when they have clear evidence that this was a "racist" committing a raced based crime. Recently, in Florida (because Florida is the WORST STATE EVER CREATED), a white man shot 3 black teenagers because he did not like their "thug" music (he also had lots of racist rants). After shooting them he went home and ate pizza. He is claiming self defense/Stand your ground on the basis that he thought the black teenagers had a gun. That represents a federal civil rights case that would be fairly easy to bring.

And can we all agree that getting a busted nose and a bruise and scratch on the back of your head is not a life threatening injury? I mean seriously... if he was "bashing" his head on concrete Zimmerman would be in a coma. Also, how does someone training in MMA think getting a bloody nose is life threatening?

I believe that what happened is that Zimmerman confronted Martin, Martin a 17 yr old over reacted. Zimmerman was embarrassed because he got beat up by a younger person - pulled his gun and shot. Again, under Florida law - and because well, blacks just do not get any help from the police down there (note the 40+ days before a thorough investigation began) - all of this is considered legal.

Another clarification for the case - The prosecutors brought the initial charge of 2nd degree murder. They can charge other crimes that are within the 2nd degree murder element list - manslaughter is a lesser charge of which all elements are shared in the higher standard of 2nd degree murder. The 3rd degree felony murder was never allowed in. However, it would have been interesting had they brought that initially. I believe they had an argument there because of Martin's age - if Florida law supports 17 as a juvenile.

I believe everyone on both sides of this (media wise) has been incredibly disgusting (Everything from the selective editing of tapes to Ann Coulter saying this "Perhaps, someday, blacks will win the right to be treated like volitional human beings. But not yet"). However, the families involved in this - except Zimmerman's brother, honestly you are worried about vigilantes with guns??? is the irony of that not lost on anyone? - have been incredibly honorable.

[stevenrapids]

you can't say with a straight face the only reason zimmerman approached Martin was because he was black. I've seen plenty of shady characters of all skin color, personally i can't stand trashy white people, and i'm white! So to make the claim that he only approached him because he was black is pulling the race card, which in most cases is total bs.(granted at times it is called for)

[ineedone]

you can't say with a straight face the only reason zimmerman approached Martin was because he was black. I've seen plenty of shady characters of all skin color, personally i can't stand trashy white people, and i'm white! So to make the claim that he only approached him because he was black is pulling the race card, which in most cases is total bs.(granted at times it is called for)

Yes I can. Just because certain evidence was excluded from the trial does not mean that it does not exist. Again, I am not saying Zimmerman is a racist but he did have a history of following/stalking black people when in his neighborhood. Lets also remember that part of his defense strategy was that there were recent break ins by black teens. The defense all but admitted that was the reason he felt Martin was suspicious - because he was a black teen wearing a hoodie.

Here are some sources - you can find a lot more from "better" sources if you choose - but these are the actual records of his calls.

46 Calls - The Daily Beast (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/22/george-zimmerman-s-history-of-911-calls-a-complete-log.html)

George Zimmerman's Police Call History | Mother Jones (http://www.motherjones.com/documents/327330-george-zimmerrman-911-call-history)

[AFSil80]

^^^ How about the link I posted towards the top of the page? Kinda counteracts your claims of him being a racist, just sayin. The man refused to stand by when crime was taking place...it's not his fault that it was black people doing most of it in his predominantly black neighborhood. But as it shows in that link I posted, he went after white people that engaged in criminal activity.

Never should have been a gun involved in the first place, and if there were I doubt the kid would have kept "assaulting" him once it was out in pain sight.

Only a real asshole would shoot an unarmed kid who was minding his own business until he got approached.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk 2

Ohhhh California. Such a safe haven of gun free zones and laws restricting their ownership.

Must be nice to live in such a paradise.

[bc.]

And can we all agree that getting a busted nose and a bruise and scratch on the back of your head is not a life threatening injury? I mean seriously... if he was "bashing" his head on concrete Zimmerman would be in a coma. Also, how does someone training in MMA think getting a bloody nose is life threatening?

So you agree TM was on top in a 'ground and pound' position (as corroborated by witnesses) and you think GZ instantly goes into a coma? Have you ever seen a MMA fight? Those guys don't instantly go into a coma when getting 'ground n pounded' they get fucked up though.

btw, when laying on your back with a bloody noose, the blood can run back up your nasal cavity and into your throat, very much 'drowning' you.

TM had been training in MMA, not sure if you got him confused with GZ...


I believe that what happened is that Zimmerman confronted Martin, Martin a 17 yr old over reacted. Zimmerman was embarrassed because he got beat up by a younger person - pulled his gun and shot. Again, under Florida law - and because well, blacks just do not get any help from the police down there (note the 40+ days before a thorough investigation began) - all of this is considered legal.

You were not there, so what you "believe happened" has nothing to do with anything, especially if it is contradictory to the evidence presented in the case. shit, a forensics expert on gsw testified that the way the bullet passed thru the shirt and entered TM proves he was on top of GZ when shot.

GZ had said HE was confronted by TM when he was on his way back to his vehicle, not the other way around, and after he told his story to the police, the police lied to him and said we got the whole thing on CCTV. Do you know what GZ said? He said "thank God" Not the reaction of someone who lied to the police...

Florida law.... this case had nothing to do with 'Florida Law' it is a USA law called SELF DEFENSE. It has nothing to do with any other laws, it was not a SYG case, that law is irrelevant to these matters. GZ shot once, probably with no intent to kill anyone.

Another clarification for the case - The prosecutors brought the initial charge of 2nd degree murder. They can charge other crimes that are within the 2nd degree murder element list - manslaughter is a lesser charge of which all elements are shared in the higher standard of 2nd degree murder. The 3rd degree felony murder was never allowed in. However, it would have been interesting had they brought that initially. I believe they had an argument there because of Martin's age - if Florida law supports 17 as a juvenile.

I am not gonna pretend to know how that works, it's tricky. how young is someone trying to kill you supposed to be before you can't fight back?? Not sure, but certainly you wont have time to check their I.D.

message length... (I thought it was long enough..)

[bc.]

Never should have been a gun involved in the first place, and if there were I doubt the kid would have kept "assaulting" him once it was out in pain sight.

Only a real asshole would shoot an unarmed kid who was minding his own business until he got approached.
The 'kid' did see the gun, and when he saw it he said. "you gonna die tonight" and tried to grab it from GZ.

Only a real asshole would sucker punch a neighborhood watch man in the face causing him a broken nose and then jump on him when he fell to the ground and continue pummeling him there.

[TougeLove]

I still dont understand why this is a big deal.

3 kids under the age of 10 were shot in chicago in one weekend while i was there.

The media/government is making this bigger than it is all while I'm sure they are doing something or a story is being swept under the news rug.

but you sheep play into this and thats what make you predictable and when you're predictable, you're controllable.

[Corbic]

I still dont understand why this is a big deal.

3 kids under the age of 10 were shot in chicago in one weekend while i was there.


But they were shot by black people... we've come to expect that.

[drftngs14]

but you sheep play into this and thats what make you predictable and when you're predictable, you're controllable.

My thoughts exactly!!! SHEEEEEEP! Profiling is part of our lives and part of security and being a police officer, hell it was TAUGHT in my CJ classes in college. We are profiled everyday we get behind the wheel of our "imports", dont want to be profiled like that, dont drive it. Dont want to be profiled as a potential threat dont dress like the ones that are! Really no sense in anyone arguing on this worthless, time and money consuming case.. Tons more issues we should be debating than another kid being shot and killed, happens everyday...

[ineedone]

The 'kid' did see the gun, and when he saw it he said. "you gonna die tonight" and tried to grab it from GZ.

Only a real asshole would sucker punch a neighborhood watch man in the face causing him a broken nose and then jump on him when he fell to the ground and continue pummeling him there.

In fairness, the only person who says that happened is the one who is alive. If you were to accept Zimmerman claim that Martin was on top - it would have been nearly impossible for him to reach under Zimmerman's body to grab a gun that was holstered in his pants on his backside (again that is what Zimmerman told the cops in his initial interview - as an aside to that, in those situations people always have a terrible time of really remember what exactly was happening and/or said because of the stress of the situation).

So you agree TM was on top in a 'ground and pound' position (as corroborated by witnesses) and you think GZ instantly goes into a coma? Have you ever seen a MMA fight? Those guys don't instantly go into a coma when getting 'ground n pounded' they get fucked up though.

btw, when laying on your back with a bloody noose, the blood can run back up your nasal cavity and into your throat, very much 'drowning' you.

TM had been training in MMA, not sure if you got him confused with GZ...

One witness said that he believes he saw Zimmerman on the bottom. However, lets accept that he was mounted. Zimmerman claims that he felt in fear of his life because his head was being bashed against the concrete - that is what would put someone in a coma, not getting punched in the face (which by his injuries looks like one punch). I fought semi-professionally in a few organizations in PA and VA a few years back - getting mounted and punched sucks but its certainly not life threatening. I bring this up because the legal standard for a self defense claim (not SYG) is that one must be in a reasonable belief his life is in imminent danger or suffer sever bodily harm. Zimmerman was training in MMA - for over a year I believe (they had his coach/owner of the gym testify). Therefore, how could someone who had been training really be in that sort of belief? I just find that skeptical. I did not see any evidence that Martin had been training - I did see that he had been in school fights. I thought the prosecutors missed a huge point here. If this kid was so dangerous as to put a grown man, who trains into a reasonable belief that his life was in danger, then why did all these kids he fought in school or whatever do so well against him? He lost fights if I remember. I just raise that point to reiterate that if you are a semi trained fighter - getting a bloody nose and a knock on the head is common - it sucks and it hurts - but it is certainly not life threatening.

You were not there, so what you "believe happened" has nothing to do with anything, especially if it is contradictory to the evidence presented in the case. shit, a forensics expert on gsw testified that the way the bullet passed thru the shirt and entered TM proves he was on top of GZ when shot.

GZ had said HE was confronted by TM when he was on his way back to his vehicle, not the other way around, and after he told his story to the police, the police lied to him and said we got the whole thing on CCTV. Do you know what GZ said? He said "thank God" Not the reaction of someone who lied to the police...

You have to remember that when it comes to experts - a well funded defense team can get an expert to testify to whatever best suits their case. The prosecution does not have that luxury (hence why the prosecution GSW witness was awful and combative v. defense who was a absolute beauty of a witness). The prosecution also had a theory that both men were standing when Martin was shot - again, they have to use the witnesses and experts that they have, they do not have the luxury of using a large budget to recreate the story in a believable manner that fits your narrative. Only one person alive knows exactly what happened and he did not take the stand and testify to that - a smart move for any defendant in these types of cases.


Florida law.... this case had nothing to do with 'Florida Law' it is a USA law called SELF DEFENSE. It has nothing to do with any other laws, it was not a SYG case, that law is irrelevant to these matters. GZ shot once, probably with no intent to kill anyone.

I am not gonna pretend to know how that works, it's tricky. how young is someone trying to kill you supposed to be before you can't fight back?? Not sure, but certainly you wont have time to check their I.D.

No, when it comes to homicide it is a state issue. Therefore, state law applies. For example, Florida laws on murder/self defense can be a lot different than New York. There does exist a "model" code but every state generally has its own intricacies (hence why you take a State Bar exam as well as the Multi State bar exam when becoming an attorney).

The intent issue is interesting as well. It would be required for the 2nd degree murder charge but not the Manslaughter or the 3rd degree felony charge. Like I alluded to before - I saw this as an imperfect self defense case which means that he used more force then was reasonably allowed.

Stand your ground was important to this case when it came to the initial investigation. In most states - when someone is shot, the shooter is arrested and the case is investigated as a homicide. That is a good thing. We want to investigate those things to make sure that the only person who is saying what happened is telling the truth. With SYG - the police can make a prejudicial decision that someone is innocent. I just think that is completely unfair and impairs the judicial process. I know there are tons of other arguments against SYG - but for this conversation I am sticking to purely procedural issues that it creates for a prosecution.

As far as how young your victim is - think of it like this, you sleep with a girl who says she is 18 but in reality shes 15. That is statutory rape, no matter what you say, you lose. You get the victim that is presented to you, you do not have to know their age so if you kill them and they are under a certain age it does not matter whether you knew that or not. 17 seems to close to being considered an adult... but Florida is absolutely nuts so you never know.

[ineedone]

^^^ How about the link I posted towards the top of the page? Kinda counteracts your claims of him being a racist, just sayin.

I never said Zimmerman was a racist. Just that his pursuit of Martin was because Martin was black.

[drftngs14]

Whats your point, so what he profiled??? You've never profiled anyone or anything based on your perception at the time?

[ineedone]

Whats your point, so what he profiled??? You've never profiled anyone or anything based on your perception at the time?

Sure, but I do not follow those people and inevitably shoot them. What I am trying to distinguish is the difference between being a "racist" and committing a crime that violates someones civil rights because of their "race." Subtle, but important.

[drftngs14]

I must not understand civil rights.. cause GZ followed and approached TM with in my opinion no intention of shooting or even fighting him, but simply doing his job as a security guard. Whether he followed him just cause he's black doesn't violate any rights, cops can follow a "suspicious vehicle" and inevitably pull them over for being nothing but "suspicious". What happens from that point is whats in question which I cant argue, but following cause he's black doesnt violate any rights

[ineedone]

I must not understand civil rights.. cause GZ followed and approached TM with in my opinion no intention of shooting or even fighting him, but simply doing his job as a security guard. Whether he followed him just cause he's black doesn't violate any rights, cops can follow a "suspicious vehicle" and inevitably pull them over for being nothing but "suspicious". What happens from that point is whats in question which I cant argue, but following cause he's black doesnt violate any rights

Well, I am no expert on civil rights litigation and from what I have heard from some friends - it is highly unlikely that this case raises to the level needed to bring a case at the federal level.

But, to kind of explain it - Zimmerman was not a law enforcement official. Therefore, he has no right to act under the color of the state (acting like a police officer). His only right would be to call the police, maybe follow, and maybe even ask him what he was doing.

So, the theory of those who want the case is that the only reason Martin was followed was because he was black (not that Zimmerman was really out there to shoot the first black kid he saw). That is why it is unlikely to happen - all of the cases I have seen are when it is blatantly obvious that the person was murdered based on race (dropping N bombs and overkill are the big ones). The important part of the statute is this "to any person, because of the actual or perceived race, color, religion, or national origin of any person." So, in theory you do not have to be a racist to commit a race based hate crime. 18 USC § 249 - Hate crime acts | Title 18 - Crimes and Criminal Procedure | U.S. Code | LII / Legal Information Institute (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/249)

You have a civil right to walk around, walk home and not be confronted and shot. So, if the only reason he was followed/stalked and eventually shot was because he was black, then you have a violation of his basic civil rights. You also have to consider that Martin had not broke any laws and, arguably, had every right to "stand his ground" or "defend" himself against a person he feared was following/stalking him.

[drftngs14]

Ok so at least we are both not experts here hahah! But as a security he does have a duty to do his job which "maybe follow" and call the police, from what Ive seen this is what he did. In addition asking TM what he was doing, where any one of us would probably say going home fuck off, but I dont think thats what TM did. At some point, people have to take responsibility for putting themselves in situations.. Not saying its his fault but he could have said going home and kept walking and then this wouldnt even be a topic of discussion. I HIGHLY doubt this will bring a civil suit, if it does we'll get another circus for a year...