3000 people died on 9/11. we killed 100,000+ civilians in Iraq. is that okay?

[BustedS13]

putting aside the "fuck em all die sand people die" mentality for a minute, is it acceptable for us to do 30 or more 9/11s on a country? if somebody pulled that shit here the rest of the planet would be glass.

edit: they're not directly related, but they're KINDA RELATED.

[lflkajfj12123]

you set yourself up for failure on this one

saddam hussein is #13 for the largest genocides in the 20th century (600-800k) and ran a totalitarian government compared to josef stalin (secret police, torture, murders, assassinations, destruction of food sources of rivals, etc.)

terrorism is actually not a real threat to us at all until these groups have rich state sponsors such as saddam, i think the message of- sponsor terrorists and we will come after you, is more than important even if we disregard saddams horrendous way of running a country. totalitarian governments don't respond to good intentions.

i know it may seem at times our government makes decisions at the flip of a coin and the media likes to exaggerate public opinion to the fullest but we wouldn't be the the largest superpower in the world if we didn't have the truly intelligent people (behind the scenes) that make these kind of decisions at the top.

so to answer your question, should we have made the decision before the war to use military force to destroy saddam husseins government in iraq?

YES x900000000 our civilian death count is small compared to saddam's and if you think about it if it wasn't for his government we wouldn't have had to intervene in the first place. you can tally our death count onto his in my opinion.

[ronmcdon]

Realistically I see Americans are going to care about effective media exposure more than anything else.
Lot more American lives get lost to cancer too (relative to 9/11), but do you see the media & public throw a large a commotion about that?
If more $ was put into cancer research rather than the war against terrah probably a lot more lives would have been saved and a lot less lost in the last 10 years (totally debate-able of course).
I'm just not convinced ppl take lives lost as serious thing unless it serves some profit/political agenda

Good luck with getting ppl to care about lives of foreigners, much less contemplate on whether it's acceptable.

[ZilviaKid]

you set yourself up for failure on this one

saddam hussein is #13 for the largest genocides in the 20th century (600-800k) and ran a totalitarian government compared to josef stalin (secret police, torture, murders, assassinations, destruction of food sources of rivals, etc.)


was america #14?

[Walperstyle]

busted, a lot of those 100,000 casulaties are from the Iraqi army and IED explosions, and other forces combined.

I'd put $100 that the majority were killed by other Iraqi's then allies.

[lflkajfj12123]

was america #14?

ah~ha

hate on. canada is a derivative of the united states success. without the united states superpower and robust economy, your economy would fall apart. you can thank us for your survival instead of interpreting us as the bringers of hell on earth. we buy 75% of your exports and you buy almost all our imports! we're responsible for your awesome standard of living that you probably have never thought twice about.

i know it must be hard for canada to sit on all its natural resources and never have to think about political or ethical decisions at large.

[LoneStarSilvia]

busted, a lot of those 100,000 casulaties are from the Iraqi army and IED explosions, and other forces combined.

I'd put $100 that the majority were killed by other Iraqi's then allies.


Agree with statement. American's aren't the ones running into market places and mosque's with bombs strapped to their bodies. Their civilians may not be as evil as predicted, but how can you differentiate when one of them can have enough explosives strapped to their back to take out a whole block?

Remember, it only takes one.


Plus, how is proven that American's alone have killed 100k civilians? I know they aren't over there lining them up and mowing them down.

[lflkajfj12123]

^ their radicals are as evil as predicted

[x3thelast]

silly if we REALLY wanted kill civilians we would have done so more efficiently. Easy as dropping more bombs on higher populated targets. Why we didnt do that? Because we are TIED down by the UN and have to follow the rules of engagement, do the other side follow that? NOPE. Ive done my tour there, i know first hand.

[ch1873857]

i cant believe what im reading. OP's ignorance makes me want to vomit.

[240guru]

silly if we REALLY wanted kill civilians we would have done so more efficiently. Easy as dropping more bombs on higher populated targets. Why we didnt do that? Because we are TIED down by the UN and have to follow the rules of engagement, do the other side follow that? NOPE. Ive done my tour there, i know first hand.

What's your MOS? Combative? I doubt it, lol.

How about branch? Probably Navy, ghey.

[badbob2121]

This topic was destined to fail before it started.

If you dont understand the number difference in casualties, then maybe you should sign the contract and go find out why first hand instead of bitching about something you dont understand.

[x3thelast]

What's your MOS? Combative? I doubt it, lol.

How about branch? Probably Navy, ghey.

sorry war vet. Didn't know we had a modern warfare vet here. Have you served in a war zone before sir? Good job making this account just to say what you said. Btw if you forgot already the Seals are also in the NAVY. If that makes them "ghey" then by all means I need to end my 8 years of service.

[cc4usmc]

I know for a fact that a lot of civilians get themselves killed. We've been in that country for years but they act like they're completely oblivious to our presence.

I don't know how many times my life was in danger and because I DIDN'T follow SOP, civilians who are just plain dumb didn't die. Driving fucking blind is cool in Iraq.

[tqstarburst]

I love these type of threads.


Everyone gets all worked up. That's why i'd rather just stay quiet.

[ineedone]

I know for a fact that a lot of civilians get themselves killed. We've been in that country for years but they act like they're completely oblivious to our presence.

I don't know how many times my life was in danger and because I DIDN'T follow SOP, civilians who are just plain dumb didn't die. Driving fucking blind is cool in Iraq.

Not sure if this is still the case but as of a couple years ago only something like 5% of the Iraqi population had access to internet. If you were from one of the more remote areas doubt you would even knew white people existed.

From what I have heard, some Afghany tribes think the US military are just aliens from outer space flying around blowing shit up. Now imagine how scared to shit you would be if that was your world.

[cc4usmc]

Not sure if this is still the case but as of a couple years ago only something like 5% of the Iraqi population had access to internet. If you were from one of the more remote areas doubt you would even knew white people existed.

Damn, I never thought about that. What would this world come to without the Internet?

[codyace]

putting aside the "fuck em all die sand people die" mentality for a minute, is it acceptable for us to do 30 or more 9/11s on a country? if somebody pulled that shit here the rest of the planet would be glass.

edit: they're not directly related, but they're KINDA RELATED.

An unwarented, unsolicited attack

vs

A known occupation, with NATO war rules, and a previously announced presence. We generally adopted the feeling of 'they know the game, so why do they push their luck'.

[codyace]

Not sure if this is still the case but as of a couple years ago only something like 5% of the Iraqi population had access to internet. If you were from one of the more remote areas doubt you would even knew white people existed.

A couple years ago I was in iraq, and was in areas that were still damaged from the Gulf War...areas that they never rebuilt, yet still lived in. Let me assure you that I've never seen more TV Dishes atop rubbel in my entire life. Sure they don't have the internet, but they had direct access to world news.

And if you want an example, this was OIF 2 and 3 that I was there

5 or 6 dishes in this picture...and I bet they were up long before we were in Kirkuk

http://www.codyace.com/albums/album85/DSCN0146.sized.jpg


The media reaches everywhere, through cell/tv/paper. Sure no internet, but neither did the Vietnamese...and they certainly knew what was going on.

[codyace]

I don't know how many times my life was in danger and because I DIDN'T follow SOP, civilians who are just plain dumb didn't die. Driving fucking blind is cool in Iraq.

Without a doubt I can't even begin to list the amount of times some dipshit in a taxi or some generally confused person decided he was going to drive towards/into/around a US convoy....it's like they either didn't know (which I doubt) or just didn't care. SOP said to blast them, but after the first month or so you begin to understand their disregard and sorta/kinda live with the fact that these crazy guys were just going to act as if we were Iraqi citizens.

[word sux]

you set yourself up for failure on this one

saddam hussein is #13 for the largest genocides in the 20th century (600-800k) and ran a totalitarian government compared to josef stalin (secret police, torture, murders, assassinations, destruction of food sources of rivals, etc.)

terrorism is actually not a real threat to us at all until these groups have rich state sponsors such as saddam, i think the message of- sponsor terrorists and we will come after you, is more than important even if we disregard saddams horrendous way of running a country. totalitarian governments don't respond to good intentions.

i know it may seem at times our government makes decisions at the flip of a coin and the media likes to exaggerate public opinion to the fullest but we wouldn't be the the largest superpower in the world if we didn't have the truly intelligent people (behind the scenes) that make these kind of decisions at the top.

so to answer your question, should we have made the decision before the war to use military force to destroy saddam husseins government in iraq?

YES x900000000 our civilian death count is small compared to saddam's and if you think about it if it wasn't for his government we wouldn't have had to intervene in the first place. you can tally our death count onto his in my opinion.


yea and we helped fund that genocide and even supplied them with the mustard gas that was used.


or did we forget that little detail?


true, the funding and gas was supposed to be used against iran but we didn't do shit back then when he used it to kill the kurds and kept funding him.

[codyace]

yea and we helped fund that genocide and even supplied them with the mustard gas that was used.


or did we forget that little detail?


true, the funding and gas was supposed to be used against iran but we didn't do shit back then when he used it to kill the kurds and kept funding him.

That's like blaming every gun shop owner for a murder that occured with a handgun he sold.

[lflkajfj12123]

yea and we helped fund that genocide and even supplied them with the mustard gas that was used.


or did we forget that little detail?


true, the funding and gas was supposed to be used against iran but we didn't do shit back then when he used it to kill the kurds and kept funding him.

I'm sorry but I think you've been incredibly misinformed. United States did NOT supply them with mustard gas. Most came from Singapore, India, and the Netherlands under their own production licensing. We had no part in the weapons used at the Halabja incident.

We did export many different military technologies to Iraq for their own military research and production including chemical and biological weapons but those were specifically used in missile research, which were recovered unused years later. United States immediately closed their contract of exporting military technology with Iraq after the attack on the Kurds and placed them on the list of State Sponsors of Terrorism.

[word sux]

That's like blaming every gun shop owner for a murder that occured with a handgun he sold.


thats a pretty piss poor comparison


its more like if the gun shop was selling guns to known serial killers then maybe I see your point...

[word sux]

I'm sorry but I think you've been incredibly misinformed. United States did NOT supply them with mustard gas. Most came from Singapore, India, and the Netherlands under their own production licensing. We had no part in the weapons used at the Halabja incident.

We did export many different military technologies to Iraq for their own military research and production including chemical and biological weapons but those were specifically used in missile research, which were recovered unused years later. United States immediately closed their contract of exporting military technology with Iraq after the attack on the Kurds and placed them on the list of State Sponsors of Terrorism.


U.S. And Iraq Go Way Back - CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/12/31/world/main534798.shtml)

we pulled them off the list before the Kurdish genocide occured in 1983


The worst human rights abuses of Hussein's tenure took place during the genocidal al-Anfal Campaign (1986-1989), in which Hussein's administration called for the extermination of every living thing--human or animal--in certain regions of the Kurdish north.

When Iraq used chemical weapons against the Kurds in 1987, there was anger in Congress and the White House. But a memo in 1988 from Assistant Secretary of State Richard W. Murphy stated that "The U.S.-Iraqi relationship is … important to our long-term political and economic objectives."



we knew it was going on yet we kept helping them and turned a blind eye to it. just like the genocide in East Timor that we helped supply and allowed to go on for over 30 years...

[lflkajfj12123]

K so we knew what was going on in the world but that doesn't make us responsible for their actions

also furthers my point that it was right for us to enter iraq and destroy hussein's government

[word sux]

K so we knew what was going on in the world but that doesn't make us responsible for their actions

also furthers my point that it was right for us to enter iraq and destroy hussein's government



no it does not but we are still responsible for our own actions.


we are not the worlds police and we have no right going around invading country's when its convenient for certain people

[codyace]

thats a pretty piss poor comparison


its more like if the gun shop was selling guns to known serial killers then maybe I see your point...

Comparitivly it may be poor, but my comment remains the same in regard to the concept of it all. When we 'funded' Iraq way back then, but how we were going to predict they'd use it years later against their own? Again, just like a gun dealer selling handguns...how would they know?

[codyace]

no it does not but we are still responsible for our own actions.

we are not the worlds police and we have no right going around invading country's when its convenient for certain people

I agree we shouldn't be the world's police, however at what point do we as American's...with our able military and clout, decide enough is enough and step in to help other humans?

That's the fine line though; as American's should we sit back and let them commit genocide? In WWII we were lauded as hero's for doing that in Europe...but now it's not ok?

Dont' write me off as blind; I also hate when we do things in the interest of our own 'need' (as in the current conflicts at their rate) but it would be hard for me to say that we shouldn't have invaded both places...now if you ask me about the fact we've been there for 10 years that's a different story.

[word sux]

Comparitivly it may be poor, but my comment remains the same in regard to the concept of it all. When we 'funded' Iraq way back then, but how we were going to predict they'd use it years later against their own? Again, just like a gun dealer selling handguns...how would they know?



we were helping them during these atrocities not just before

[word sux]

I agree we shouldn't be the world's police, however at what point do we as American's...with our able military and clout, decide enough is enough and step in to help other humans?

That's the fine line though; as American's should we sit back and let them commit genocide? In WWII we were lauded as hero's for doing that in Europe...but now it's not ok?

Dont' write me off as blind; I also hate when we do things in the interest of our own 'need' (as in the current conflicts at their rate) but it would be hard for me to say that we shouldn't have invaded both places...now if you ask me about the fact we've been there for 10 years that's a different story.


we should be more worried about fixing out own country.

how many people did sadam kill over the past 20 years? how many people have we killed in Iraq over the past 10? if we wanted to do remove sadam from power we should have done it in the first gulf war when he was at his worst but since it wasn't financially beneficial for us at the time so we decided not to.

we didn't find out about the concentration camps or at least the extent until we actually started to discover them during the invasion we deployed because we were attacked. The situations are soo different you can't compare. It would be like us finding out about the holocaust then invading 15 years later after it had happened.

[slowvia]

You know I try not to post in here because I usually just get upset at people's ignorance, but let me pose a question to everyone in here;
What justification did we have to enter Iraq? Because we know for a fact that; 1. They didnt have WMD's 2. The Iraqi government played no part in the attacks on 9/11
Was Saddam Hussein a terrible dictator killing his own people? Yes. But we arent the World Police, it isnt our job to stop other governments from doing what theyre gonna do, you dont see us attacking North Korea.
So does/did anyone actually support the idea of sending our own troops into the Middle East to fight a war that had nothing to do with the largest attack on US soil while we let the real terrorists who committed it get away without even trying to find them?

[fullthrottle]

putting aside the "fuck em all die sand people die" mentality for a minute, is it acceptable for us to do 30 or more 9/11s on a country? if somebody pulled that shit here the rest of the planet would be glass.

edit: they're not directly related, but they're KINDA RELATED.



You are an idiot if you think we killed 100K civilians in iraq lol. Ive been there twice. Its more like a few thousand.

[lflkajfj12123]

@ word sux

i can't read anymore of your posts too ridiculous

You know I try not to post in here because I usually just get upset at people's ignorance, but let me pose a question to everyone in here;
What justification did we have to enter Iraq? Because we know for a fact that; 1. They didnt have WMD's 2. The Iraqi government played no part in the attacks on 9/11
Was Saddam Hussein a terrible dictator killing his own people? Yes. But we arent the World Police, it isnt our job to stop other governments from doing what theyre gonna do, you dont see us attacking North Korea.
So does/did anyone actually support the idea of sending our own troops into the Middle East to fight a war that had nothing to do with the largest attack on US soil while we let the real terrorists who committed it get away without even trying to find them?

1. we are not the world police no one said that. we have alliances with well respected democratic countries around iraq that don't commit genocide on their people and are tired of the corruption leaking into their homes. that is why we decided to intervene in iraq.

2. the real terrorists have no power without state sponsors like iraq, destroy the means and you destroy the ends. you can't fight a war by playing hide and seek, you have to strip them of their resources.

[word sux]

@ word sux

i can't read anymore of your posts too ridiculous



1. we are not the world police no one said that. we have alliances with well respected democratic countries around iraq that don't commit genocide on their people and are tired of the corruption leaking into their homes. that is why we decided to intervene in iraq.

2. the real terrorists have no power without state sponsors like iraq, destroy the means and you destroy the ends. you can't fight a war by playing hide and seek, you have to strip them of their resources.



so my posts are ridiculous because I like to talk about facts not made up bullshit and post references to my points??


1. I already have shown how the genocide in iraq is not a valid arguement at all for this occupation! They would have used that in the first place instead of making up the whole wmd bs...

2. you are a such an ignorant imbecile I really can't belive the shit you post! Iraq was one of the biggest enemies of al qaeda and other such "terrorist organizations". al qaeda actually declared all shi'a to be heretics! Iraq (a mostly shi'a country) had declared open war on Al qaeda


you should try opening a book every now and then...

[ZilviaKid]

i love going through these

i always get a laugh one way or the other

[lflkajfj12123]

so my posts are ridiculous because I like to talk about facts not made up bullshit and post references to my points??


1. I already have shown how the genocide in iraq is not a valid arguement at all for this occupation! They would have used that in the first place instead of making up the whole wmd bs...

2. you are a such an ignorant imbecile I really can't belive the shit you post! Iraq was one of the biggest enemies of al qaeda and other such "terrorist organizations". al qaeda actually declared all shi'a to be heretics! Iraq (a mostly shi'a country) had declared open war on Al qaeda


you should try opening a book every now and then...

you are a fool but your insults sure proved your point better!

1. I never said genocide was the reason we entered iraq and they didn't just make up that hussein had weapons of mass destruction, it was well agreed by many nations that it was very likely hussein was up to no good. just because we didn't find anything doesn't mean we didn't have the right to suspect him considering all the other shady bullshit he ran during his rule. as i said before the reason we intervened was because of iraq's state sponsorship of terrorism against our allie countries, all the other nonsense is just added effect that was especially inflated by the media.

2. I also never said anything about al qaeda and if you honestly think that iraq did not support terrorist groups in the neighboring countries you are the ignorant imbecile. it was very clear saddam was making payments to families of suicide bombers, and is all very well documented. he also provided headquarters, bases, and training camps to terrorists fighting the governments of turkey and iran.

3. if you have such a problem with the united states by all means feel free to move out of this country, maybe iraq would be good for you? seems you're a fanatic of sticking up for them

please continue posting "facts" though

[trinty]

hell na its not all right ....fuck all that shit ...3000 for 100000 people not cool man

[word sux]

you are a fool but your insults sure proved your point better!

1. I never said genocide was the reason we entered iraq and they didn't just make up that hussein had weapons of mass destruction, it was well agreed by many nations that it was very likely hussein was up to no good. just because we didn't find anything doesn't mean we didn't have the right to suspect him considering all the other shady bullshit he ran during his rule. as i said before the reason we intervened was because of iraq's state sponsorship of terrorism against our allie countries, all the other nonsense is just added effect that was especially inflated by the media.

2. I also never said anything about al qaeda and if you honestly think that iraq did not support terrorist groups in the neighboring countries you are the ignorant imbecile. it was very clear saddam was making payments to families of suicide bombers, and is all very well documented. he also provided headquarters, bases, and training camps to terrorists fighting the governments of turkey and iran.

3. if you have such a problem with the united states by all means feel free to move out of this country, maybe iraq would be good for you? seems you're a fanatic of sticking up for them

please continue posting "facts" though

1. so because he is "up to no good" we should invade country? are you kidding me? did his accomplice's include natasha nogoodnik and boris badkov? I hope that was a really bad joke in realllly bad taste...


2. Give me one example


3. Why is it that whenever you prove someone wrong on american foreign policy they always resort to the "if you dernt like it the geetouwt!" response??

and I will while you continue to spew your b.s.


make one good point please, I am begging you!

[EDacIouSX]

You know I try not to post in here because I usually just get upset at people's ignorance, but let me pose a question to everyone in here;
What justification did we have to enter Iraq? Because we know for a fact that; 1. They didnt have WMD's 2. The Iraqi government played no part in the attacks on 9/11
Was Saddam Hussein a terrible dictator killing his own people? Yes. But we arent the World Police, it isnt our job to stop other governments from doing what theyre gonna do, you dont see us attacking North Korea.
So does/did anyone actually support the idea of sending our own troops into the Middle East to fight a war that had nothing to do with the largest attack on US soil while we let the real terrorists who committed it get away without even trying to find them?

you d/a we did attack north korea. Hence, THE KOREAN WAR.

Also, we don't need any more justification than the fact that Sadam was committing genocide. I do not believe in relative ethics. There is absolute right, and absolute wrong. What he was doing was absolutely wrong therefore it is ok for anyone, regardless of their country of origin, to go into that country and stop Sadam from doing that bs that he was doing.

1. so because he is "up to no good" we should invade country? are you kidding me? did his accomplice's include natasha nogoodnik and boris badkov? I hope that was a really bad joke in realllly bad taste...


2. Give me one example


3. Why is it that whenever you prove someone wrong on american foreign policy they always resort to the "if you dernt like it the geetouwt!" response??

and I will while you continue to spew your b.s.


make one good point please, I am begging you!


I'd respond to some of your posts but you seem so out there there's no point. You are one of those relative people. You saying its ok for sadam to do what he's doing is no different than saying its ok for him to come to wherever you live and do exactly what he's doing in his country in your country.

And holy crap you're twice my age. I bet you were a hippie protesting the vietnam war.

[word sux]

you dumbass we did attack north korea. Hence, THE KOREAN WAR.

Also, we don't need any more justification than the fact that Sadam was committing genocide. I do not believe in relative ethics. There is absolute right, and absolute wrong. What he was doing was absolutely wrong therefore it is ok for anyone, regardless of their country of origin, to go into that country and stop Sadam from doing that bs that he was doing.


again the genocide was in the 80's


WHEN WE WERE SUPPORTING AN FUNDING HIM....

[EDacIouSX]

1. so because he is "up to no good" we should invade country? are you kidding me? did his accomplice's include natasha nogoodnik and boris badkov? I hope that was a really bad joke in realllly bad taste...


2. Give me one example


3. Why is it that whenever you prove someone wrong on american foreign policy they always resort to the "if you dernt like it the geetouwt!" response??

and I will while you continue to spew your b.s.


make one good point please, I am begging you!

again the genocide was in the 80's


WHEN WE WERE SUPPORTING AN FUNDING HIM....

Oh ok, so then there's the reason we have for going into iraq. to correct our own mistake. Didn't you ask what justifies us going in earlier? You kind of answered your own question.

[slowvia]

you d/a we did attack north korea. Hence, THE KOREAN WAR.

Also, we don't need any more justification than the fact that Sadam was committing genocide. I do not believe in relative ethics. There is absolute right, and absolute wrong. What he was doing was absolutely wrong therefore it is ok for anyone, regardless of their country of origin, to go into that country and stop Sadam from doing that bs that he was doing.


:picardfp:
Please read a history book.
By attacking a country for committing genocide you are declaring yourself the world police, whether official or not. We didnt enter WW2 because Hitler was killing people, we entered because we were provoked! We didnt enter Cambodia when Khmer Rouge was killing everyone there. And as stated before, if we attacked Iraq because Hussein was committing genocide, they would have said that, and not "they have WMD's!".

[lflkajfj12123]

1. so because he is "up to no good" we should invade country? are you kidding me? did his accomplice's include natasha nogoodnik and boris badkov? I hope that was a really bad joke in realllly bad taste...


2. Give me one example


3. Why is it that whenever you prove someone wrong on american foreign policy they always resort to the "if you dernt like it the geetouwt!" response??

and I will while you continue to spew your b.s.


make one good point please, I am begging you!

you just looooooove to bend words and fill your posts with neurotic fluff. when you can sit behind a keyboard and behave let me know, i'd love to continue to tell you you're wrong.

yes get the fuck out of this country you ingrate, of course our foreign policy is not perfect but you and the media make it seem like we are going out and looking for trouble. thats not the case at ALL and after 8 years in iraq i'd say it was a successful mission and hopefully further progression will occur in iraq through democratic rule. this is 2011 and there is no place for governments on this planet that rule through murder and corruption and strip its citizens of their natural rights as human beings. i believe its not our right to police the world, but our responsibility.

you probably don't agree, and i don't care.

[Kingbaby]

I feel I have to say this



"With great power comes great responsibility"

but it sucks we are the only ones...

but, FUCK YEA!

[sidewaysil80]

soap is the man, hats off.

[OBEEWON]

Lest we forget...

Osama was the one who we blamed for 911. NOT Sadam.

So in regards to all things 911 no it was not fair.

I do not care how many people Sadam killed America has no right to go into another sovereign country killing civilians to get one man. All we did was make more enemies.

Also Pakistan killed and announced the death of Bin Lauden in 2007. America was the only country late to the party.


Also real talk Soap. I want to know why you believe its our responsibility to police the world. There is not a one world government, belief system, custom, currency, way of life etc.

IF anything the United Nations should police the world not ONE nation in the form of America. There has never been one nation policing the world. Any nation that was close in history participated in genocide, mass murders, corruption EACH and every single time. Babylon, Medo-Persia, Rome, HRE, Britain. Everytime one of those world police stretched itself what happened?

P.S. - America was not founded as a Democracy but a Republic. So this BS about bringing democracy to every country is not even accurate, much less our job. If a country wants to have a king, royal blood line who are we to tell them otherwise? We don't even own this land we launch these attacks from. So by our own standards someone should punch us in the nuts and free the Native American's.

[VNG704]

Not sure if this is still the case but as of a couple years ago only something like 5% of the Iraqi population had access to internet. If you were from one of the more remote areas doubt you would even knew white people existed.

From what I have heard, some Afghany tribes think the US military are just aliens from outer space flying around blowing shit up. Now imagine how scared to shit you would be if that was your world.Good point but and slightly off topic but that's soo like the commercials to think only "white people" are in the military. There's alot of good points in this thread. I think a really good one is the third post. I'll keep my opinions out of here and I just let the leaders do their job.

[ineedone]

Good point but and slightly off topic but that's soo like the commercials to think only "white people" are in the military. There's alot of good points in this thread. I think a really good one is the third post. I'll keep my opinions out of here and I just let the leaders do their job.


Well they obviously knew brown people existed! haha, Did not mean to come off sounding like only white people are in the military... but I guess I set myself up for that one. :facepalm:

[ineedone]

Lest we forget...

Osama was the one who we blamed for 911. NOT Sadam.

So in regards to all things 911 no it was not fair.

I do not care how many people Sadam killed America has no right to go into another sovereign country killing civilians to get one man. All we did was make more enemies.

Man... or Oil? Or if you want to be even more cynical... neo-colonialization. We now have a military base smack dab in the middle east the size of the Vatican. Even with troop pull downs, the United States will, for the foreseeable future, have a permanent presence in the middle east.

Also Pakistan killed and announced the death of Bin Lauden in 2007. America was the only country late to the party.

Please do not tell me you are a Alex Jones fan... the kool-aid involved in all of that is way to strong.

IF anything the United Nations should police the world not ONE nation in the form of America. There has never been one nation policing the world. Any nation that was close in history participated in genocide, mass murders, corruption EACH and every single time. Babylon, Medo-Persia, Rome, HRE, Britain. Everytime one of those world police stretched itself what happened?

P.S. - America was not founded as a Democracy but a Republic. So this BS about bringing democracy to every country is not even accurate, much less our job. If a country wants to have a king, royal blood line who are we to tell them otherwise? We don't even own this land we launch these attacks from. So by our own standards someone should punch us in the nuts and free the Native American's.

The United Nations is primarily a United States organization. So by proxy, they essentially carry out whatever foreign policy the United States wants. Not to mention if they ever tried anything that we truly disapproved of, we have the power to veto (and I believe the only sole country with that power). The United States is the worlds police, however, 911 only picks up when you got something they want. No need to get into the multiple genocides the United States and the United Nations has ignored or even profited off of, but if you do not have oil to pay the piper, better hunker down and hope for the best.

If anyone did punch our nuts, our bruised balls would just give them small pox.

[bllabong89]

If everyone feels like our government is do wrong and our military branches are doing terrible things...leave. Why would you stay somewhere that does horrific things.

That's right, you can vote and do this thing called protest and have whatever religion you want and live a comfortable life. Can you do that in other countries? If so, go there.

Do you ever notice in the media that they have a military or a government or group of people killing people that are protesting or not living by their set means? The answer is yes. If that is a better place to you than be my guest and leave because I don't want to fight for people that are so blind to the kind of life they can live here.

I would like to see some of you go down range and try to "help" their country and not be killed for being an outcast. Good luck

[ineedone]

If everyone feels like our government is do wrong and our military branches are doing terrible things...leave. Why would you stay somewhere that does horrific things.

That's right, you can vote and do this thing called protest and have whatever religion you want and live a comfortable life. Can you do that in other countries? If so, go there.

Do you ever notice in the media that they have a military or a government or group of people killing people that are protesting or not living by their set means? The answer is yes. If that is a better place to you than be my guest and leave because I don't want to fight for people that are so blind to the kind of life they can live here.

I would like to see some of you go down range and try to "help" their country and not be killed for being an outcast. Good luck

There is a huge distinction between service members and policies. You can support one without supporting the other. Just sayin...

[OBEEWON]

Man... or Oil? Or if you want to be even more cynical... neo-colonialization. We now have a military base smack dab in the middle east the size of the Vatican. Even with troop pull downs, the United States will, for the foreseeable future, have a permanent presence in the middle east.

I was not even going to stir that pot. Truck drivers are getting paid 3x what soldiers get paid over there to cart oil around.



Please do not tell me you are a Alex Jones fan... the kool-aid involved in all of that is way to strong.


Oh hell no. That man is 1. Crazy 2. Paid by the government in my opinion. Of course I have no proof. I didn't even know he had anything to say on the matter.

For that many loved him, but of course there was a small minority who wanted him gone.

Fact of the matter is Momar was not the best, but he did many great things for his people.

[codyace]

2. Give me one example

Our unit pretty much traveled everywhere from Tikrit area North to the turkish border, and East too the Iranian Border (we were out of Kirkuk) The recon guys were always finding Turkish training camps up north that were beig used to train them against the Kurds who lived in south Turkey and North Iraq. It was very common to get reports at even on our level of what they found along routes, and what they were used for, so we found it funny that there was harboring of terrorists, albiet not the same 'baddies' we were chasing.



3. Why is it that whenever you prove someone wrong on american foreign policy they always resort to the "if you dernt like it the geetouwt!" response??

I can't say I'm a fan of that 'move to canada' rebuttle either...

[codyace]

Even with troop pull downs, the United States will, for the foreseeable future, have a permanent presence in the middle east.

Wait are we talking about In Iraq or in General....becuase we always have in the middle east, it's called Isarel ;)

[ineedone]

Wait are we talking about In Iraq or in General....becuase we always have in the middle east, it's called Isarel ;)

True, but not analogous. Israel is an ally that wants the United States there. Not so much for the rest of the Middle East. I would have to imagine the capabilities of the two are a tad bit different as well.

Our unit pretty much traveled everywhere from Tikrit area North to the turkish border, and East too the Iranian Border (we were out of Kirkuk) The recon guys were always finding Turkish training camps up north that were beig used to train them against the Kurds who lived in south Turkey and North Iraq. It was very common to get reports at even on our level of what they found along routes, and what they were used for, so we found it funny that there was harboring of terrorists, albiet not the same 'baddies' we were chasing.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the United States through certain agencies funded most of that regions "terrorist".

[lflkajfj12123]

Also real talk Soap. I want to know why you believe its our responsibility to police the world. There is not a one world government, belief system, custom, currency, way of life etc.


I agree completely with this sentiment. Let me quote Ayn Rand... "Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men."

While there are many different belief systems, there is only one type of government that exists to protect its citizens. Totalitarian and dictatorship governments have no place in human life. We are defined by our ability to think freely and to pursue our lives however we choose. Stripping man kind of its inherent rights of existence is the worst crime any civilization could commit.

That is why I believe it is our responsibility and any other country who takes pride in freedom, to police the creation of governments that not only destroys lives of it citizens but also their ability to think and act as individuals. Even if that means being called the bullies of the world.


IF anything the United Nations should police the world not ONE nation in the form of America. There has never been one nation policing the world. Any nation that was close in history participated in genocide, mass murders, corruption EACH and every single time. Babylon, Medo-Persia, Rome, HRE, Britain. Everytime one of those world police stretched itself what happened?


As ineedone said, USA has the most clout in the UN and also runs the world bank, the ones who fund the decisions of the UN. I don't believe we should set up a world police anyways it is not needed, but I do believe countries like the USA should intervene if needed on situations such as stripping the power of countries that do not grant its citizens freedom and to prevent future ones from coming into existence. Terrorism wouldn't be any kind of an issue if it weren't for governments like saddams that- don't play by the rules and support these radical groups for their own benefit.


P.S. - America was not founded as a Democracy but a Republic. So this BS about bringing democracy to every country is not even accurate, much less our job. If a country wants to have a king, royal blood line who are we to tell them otherwise? We don't even own this land we launch these attacks from. So by our own standards someone should punch us in the nuts and free the Native American's.


I understand what you're getting at but more or less you are bending words there. We were founded as republic when that was what important for our nation at the time as it was heavily split by faction, it is now unimportant to call it that and our government today exists as a democratic republic, the government of the say of the people. Whatever the terminology, in the modern world most governments even with a king or royal blood line behave mostly as a democratic rule where the peoples voice is heard.

I also agree America did some pretty shitty things in the way past and sometimes goes without notice. We murdered lots of people and behaved as criminals of the world. However, thats not how this country exists today. It's like saying we should condemn germany now for at a time being ruled by the nazi party. We have had our moments to say the least. Still doesn't stop me from saying that today this is the best country on earth. :)

[Brian]

Usa #1


jdam jdam jdam jdam jdam jdam

[Matej]

There is so much going on behind the curtain that the ordinary person does not know about that I now think it pointless to take any side, as doing so just makes me feel like I am playing into the black or white game.
Such as when thirty years later the US government admitted that the entire incident that pushed America into the Vietnam War was made up.
Or how it was discovered that US officials assisted high-ranking Nazis start new lives in trade for technological secrets.
I only wonder what we will know about the present twenty or thirty years from now.

In the end, no government is perfect, since they are made up of people, and people will be people.

[lflkajfj12123]

Well put Matej :)

Operation Paperclip - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip)

also jdm

[word sux]

you just looooooove to bend words and fill your posts with neurotic fluff. when you can sit behind a keyboard and behave let me know, i'd love to continue to tell you you're wrong.

yes get the fuck out of this country you ingrate, of course our foreign policy is not perfect but you and the media make it seem like we are going out and looking for trouble. thats not the case at ALL and after 8 years in iraq i'd say it was a successful mission and hopefully further progression will occur in iraq through democratic rule. this is 2011 and there is no place for governments on this planet that rule through murder and corruption and strip its citizens of their natural rights as human beings. i believe its not our right to police the world, but our responsibility.

you probably don't agree, and i don't care.

again you have yet to make a single valid point in this thread, you might as well tell me that 2+2=3 while your at it.

seriously take my advice and pick up a book reading your posts is painful at best. your like the houdini of pulling things out of your arse.

It's funny that you are calling me an ingrate because I believe that we should stay out of other counties problems... sorry for holding up the views of the founding fathers..

you should crack open a middle school american history book... its amazing the things you will learn!!!

[word sux]

and I am still waiting for some sort of intelligent response from you

[lflkajfj12123]

http://cache.ohinternet.com/images/c/c6/YOU_MAD.jpg

[BOROSUN]

to think about it my middle school american history textbooks way back 90s is outdated and some incorrect/misinformed.

[word sux]

http://cache.ohinternet.com/images/c/c6/YOU_MAD.jpg



not really, just amused.


and thanks for proving my point

[Banana_Cute]

Here in america, we show em who's the boss.

[word sux]

http://files.sharenator.com/memes_merica_Memebase_35-s399x400-179396.jpg

[J90lude]

The funny thing I honestly believe that our own government was behind the whole 9/11 tragedy. "smh" Sad...world.

[Brian]

How so ?

[imotion s14]

I agree completely with this sentiment. Let me quote Ayn Rand... "Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men."

While there are many different belief systems, there is only one type of government that exists to protect its citizens. Totalitarian and dictatorship governments have no place in human life. We are defined by our ability to think freely and to pursue our lives however we choose. Stripping man kind of its inherent rights of existence is the worst crime any civilization could commit.

That is why I believe it is our responsibility and any other country who takes pride in freedom, to police the creation of governments that not only destroys lives of it citizens but also their ability to think and act as individuals. Even if that means being called the bullies of the world.



As ineedone said, USA has the most clout in the UN and also runs the world bank, the ones who fund the decisions of the UN. I don't believe we should set up a world police anyways it is not needed, but I do believe countries like the USA should intervene if needed on situations such as stripping the power of countries that do not grant its citizens freedom and to prevent future ones from coming into existence. Terrorism wouldn't be any kind of an issue if it weren't for governments like saddams that- don't play by the rules and support these radical groups for their own benefit.




I understand what you're getting at but more or less you are bending words there. We were founded as republic when that was what important for our nation at the time as it was heavily split by faction, it is now unimportant to call it that and our government today exists as a democratic republic, the government of the say of the people. Whatever the terminology, in the modern world most governments even with a king or royal blood line behave mostly as a democratic rule where the peoples voice is heard.

I also agree America did some pretty shitty things in the way past and sometimes goes without notice. We murdered lots of people and behaved as criminals of the world. However, thats not how this country exists today. It's like saying we should condemn germany now for at a time being ruled by the nazi party. We have had our moments to say the least. Still doesn't stop me from saying that today this is the best country on earth. :)

New world philosophy: Democracy grows out the barrel of a gun. :rofl:

[kingkilburn]

Without having read the thread I would ponder a question(fully knowing the answer myself).

How did Saddam come to power in the first place?


Much like the rest of our 20th century history, a lot of bloodshed could have been prevented if America had let well enough alone. Any reason for 9/11 could have been prevented if America had not backed a crazed sociopath.

[fliprayzin240sx]

Well, like stated, no way in hell the US is single handedly responsible for 100k Iraqi deaths. That looks more like the total death count during the whole time we were there, not necessarily had anything to do with us. Sectarian violence between the Sunni and Shiite's, which is what were all waiting to watch blow the fuck up after we completely pull out at the end of the month. If you guys think the Iraqi Violence that's shown in the news is bad, it's about to get worst since the extremist are just waiting till the end of the month.

The shitty part, nobody will really know how bad the it will be. Once we pull out of there, media would care less what's going on that side of the world. Doubt itll get as much coverage as the last 8 yrs.

[illvialuver]

I ont think it is right. I think it is all perspective. Like we are against terror, but other countries see our acts of war as acts of terror.

[word sux]

We are the biggest terror state on the planet.. fact


(by definition)

[kingkilburn]

We do pay the CIA to go around fucking peoples' shit up don't we.

[Sergio180sx]

We are the biggest terror state on the planet.. fact


(by definition)


(Fact)= If your not first, your last..... (Ricky Bobby):Owned:hahahaha

[Kingbaby]

We (America) are doing what we have to seeing we have it better than others, along with being greedy.

If we were to close our borders seriously, how in-humane would that be?

I could care less of that 100,000 people cause they weren't killed in the name of 'HATE' or for 100 virgins. Now when I say that I've seen a few of them, and I'm ok with it overall. The money/greed side of America is the side we must be ashamed of mostly and not what we stand for. Calling America a threat/bully/overdoing is small minded!

in short

America

Fuck Yea!

[word sux]

We (America) are doing what we have to seeing we have it better than others, along with being greedy.

If we were to close our borders seriously, how in-humane would that be?

I could care less of that 100,000 people cause they weren't killed in the name of 'HATE' or for 100 virgins. Now when I say that I've seen a few of them, and I'm ok with it overall. The money/greed side of America is the side we must be ashamed of mostly and not what we stand for. Calling America a threat/bully/overdoing is small minded!

in short

America

Fuck Yea!

wait... what?


was that english, or was that typed in moron?

[kingkilburn]

America thinks it is doing what it must for security.

[holemilk00]

Its really hard to read all this, there is so much media influence in just about every post in this thread. The best thing I've read in here is the comment about us not knowing the full story of whats behind the curtain. Everyone is only talking about the conflicts were involved in that make the news, do none of you realize the other places around the world that we have been in for decades doing basically the same mission as Iraq and Afghanistan? Do some research on whats going on in Djibouti Africa, or better yet since I'm probably 10 years older than most of you making the "were not the world police" argument, look up what happened in Kosovo and our reluctant involvement in that area through the UN. We were basically pulled into that situation through our UN alliances. SMH

[kingkilburn]

My mom was in Hungry for a year for the Bosnian peace keeping. We still have people over there. People are still dieing over there and it gets no coverage from any media source.

[Kingbaby]

wait... what?


was that english, or was that typed in moron?

Re read it! Stop being the grammar police...

Sometimes I write/type like I speak sorry, I'll try and be correct this time. America as a great power has to do the things they do despite the reason. That meaning what ever reason we are fighting these wars if they weren't being fought many more people would be dead. I've been deployed to most of these places and I can tell you first hand that the humanitarian effort US puts forward is greatly appreciate and can be seen. Along with that as if been mostly see as being a world police but if America isn't around to help, they'd be more holes in the planet.

Hopefully you can get pass my grammar and comprehend that!

[HalveBlue]

That 100,000 is an estimate. I've seen estimates range from 50,000 to close to a million, depending on study.

In several of these studies, especially the ones dealing with the higher end of the estimates, the majority of those casualties are attributed to infrastructural deficiencies like lack of fresh water and electricity, or lack of medicine.

This is actually the result of the Iran-Iraq war in the 80's, which did tremendous damage to Iraq's infrastructure.

The problem was compounded by the post Desert Storm embargoes and sanctions that were put in place against Iraq by the UN, which throttled Iraq’s primary source of income (oil) and limited what supplies and machinery Iraq could import; a lot of construction equipment and machinery required to effectively repair the damage done to the roads, refineries, and ports of Iraq were considered dual-purpose and were thus banned from importation into Iraq.

When the US invaded Iraq in 2003, Iraqi infrastructure had suffered from 20 years of destruction and neglect already, the fragile supply network that did exist suffered severe disruption. Even in modern times, disease and injury cause more casualties than actual warfare. This holds true for civilians as well as Soldiers.

Shortly after President Bush's infamous "major combat operations in Iraq have ended." speech, the vacuum created by the Coalition's destruction of Saddam's state apparatus quickly allowed internal divisions in Iraqi society to erupt into violence.

Iraqi civilian casualties aren't necessarily categorized by whom or what killed that person. Most of the time the cause and perpetrator are listed as unknown.

This ethnic violence is usually considered to account for the majority of Iraqi civilian casualties, and it continues to this day.

Actual collateral damage, that is civilian casualties inflicted by US and Coalition forces, would be on the lower end of the spectrum. But, again, this number is difficult to calculate. All in all, collateral damage caused by US and Coalition forces probably ranges between 5,000 and 30,000.

All that having been said, I’m not trying to downplay the tragedy that is Iraq. In the end, it was an unnecessary war that created a lot of death, destruction, and suffering. In fact, the war in Iraq is one of the biggest blunders in the history of American foreign policy.

But to hold the US accountable for all the misery that’s occurring in Iraq is naïve and trying to simplify a very complex situation.

[h2v7]

3000 people killed in 911
4500 people killed daily with abortions

[kingkilburn]

And that has any bearing on this discussion how?

[Corbic]

putting aside the "fuck em all die sand people die" mentality for a minute, is it acceptable for us to do 30 or more 9/11s on a country? if somebody pulled that shit here the rest of the planet would be glass.

edit: they're not directly related, but they're KINDA RELATED.

As already mentioned, most of those deaths have been caused by insurgents, terrorists, in fighting and suicide bombings - ever watch the news "35 killed today in a mosque bombing".

The US has been in Iraq so long not because we have been fighting "Iraq" but because once Saddam collapsed, all the various factions who have a long standing hatred for one another (religion, politics, ethnics, history) decided they wanted to kill one another. Not to mention Iran is one instigating asshole.

We have been trying to help them get their shit together, establish security and control.


Now how about this "is that okay"

Japan killed 57 US Civilians on Pearl Harbor...

We Killed nearly 1 million Japanese Civilians on top of the 2 million Japanese soldiers we killed.


Total US Civilian Deaths was only 1,700 - we also help killed 3 million German Civilians.

[Corbic]

I ont think it is right. I think it is all perspective. Like we are against terror, but other countries see our acts of war as acts of terror.

Exactly.

If we did nothing, the world would think we are pussies and just keep acting up.

We do something, we're assholes and their all pissed off.


You can't win.

[kingkilburn]

Isn't it nice that we bring the war to our enemy's doorstep rather than our own?

[brahim213]

once I saw the thread title I knew it was going be wild in here

[Corbic]

Without having read the thread I would ponder a question(fully knowing the answer myself).

How did Saddam come to power in the first place?


Much like the rest of our 20th century history, a lot of bloodshed could have been prevented if America had let well enough alone. Any reason for 9/11 could have been prevented if America had not backed a crazed sociopath.

Gigga what?

Saddam was in power long before we backed him against the fanatic Iranians.

We'll pick an authoritarian dictator who likes money over fanatic suicidal religious zelots any day!!


9/11 happend for many reasons.


The Failed Attempt of Secular terrorists to overthrow Israel. Originally groups like Black September would take hostages and make demands - Counter Terrorist groups began to crop up in the 60's - now they just killed your ass.

With these political based groups failing, religious ones filled the void. The Saudis encouraged fundamental Isalm to offset blame for their internal issues and stay in power. Iran is currently doing this - "its the US and the Jews fault life sucks, not ours."

Russia invades Afghanistan on behalf of the legitimate Afghan Government. Russia tries to "modernize" them - educate boys and girls, equal rights, you know things that don't sit well with fundamental Islamics. Jihad is declared and Jimmy Carter's plan to get back at Russia for Vietnam kicks into full swing.

We give money to Pakistan - who then gives it to terrorists, we give "freedom fighters" stinger missiles and training. Russia says "fuck it" levels the country, kills a few million and leaves. Afghanistan is in a civil war for the next 20 years between waring factions.

Iraq invades Kuit because Saddam is pissed no one is helping him pay his bills after his 11 year war with Iran. The Oil Countries are drowning in oil and won't cut him some slack. The US says "whatever you do, just make it quick because we can't have an oil crisis". He miss understood us.

Saudi Arabia is scared shitless, Saddam is trying to get his Arab brothers to back him by launching scuds at Israel.

Osama Binladin, returns from Afghanistan, a Saudi Prince, he was the hero who with his Muhadin throw out the Russians, now he wants to help the Saudi's throw out the Iraqis. Realizing if he brought his Army to Saudi Arabia, they would overthrow the King and take the country to the next level the Saudis say "Piss off, America Save Us".

We do - and Osama is forever pissed and trying to get even with us.

Over the past 30 Years the US also failed to address dozens of terrorist attacks. We treated them as "police matters".

World Trade Center truck bombing, Marine Barracks, Embassy Bombings, Yeman Embassy attack, the USS Cole, not to mention hundreds of bombings and attacks in Russia and Yugoslavia. - All Islamic Terrorist driven, and all tied into a greater terrorist network.

WE IGNORE IT ALL. Times were good and cared more about who Bill Clinton was porking and whether or not Janet Reno was a man and just who dangerous the Religious Right was. (Waco).

9/11 happens, OMG there are terrorist out there?!?! They don't like us?!?! Who is O-sama Bin-la-den? Is he that new handsome black senator from Chicago?

The rest is history.

Iran is out of control because we bumped off the their "counter balance", Saddam. He was trying to develop nukes, but unfortunately he was doing it to nuke Iran, not the US or Israel.

Should we have invaded Iraq? No - but Saddam was a familiar name and we wanted to kick ass and get even cause of 9/11.


Lastly - the only good thing about the Middle East anymore... IDF Girls.
http://www.rachelpapo.com/images/serial/serial15.jpg

[Corbic]

Isn't it nice that we bring the war to our enemy's doorstep rather than our own?

Exactly. God Bless the Atlantic and Pacific ocean.


We are the only country in the world (right now) that can project power clear across the world. Everyone else needs to be in driving distance to start a fist-fight.

However, sadly, China is trying to catch up with their rapid military expansion funded by Walmart, Ebay and all their cheap copy right infringement consumer bullshit-

FUCK CHINA. Fuck their Walmart, Fuck their piracy, Fuck their hackers, Fuck their MMO-Farmers, Fuck their knock off parts, Fuck China.

[Corbic]

Lest we forget...


IF anything the United Nations should police the world not ONE nation in the form of America. There has never been one nation policing the world. Any nation that was close in history participated in genocide, mass murders, corruption EACH and every single time. Babylon, Medo-Persia, Rome, HRE, Britain. Everytime one of those world police stretched itself what happened?


The UN is a colossal joke. In fact world politics are a joke. In the 90's we but sancantions on the former Yugoslavia and Iraq, supported and voted on by all the major players.

Yet England (BAE) sold equipment to both countries, Germany and France offered bogus loans and helped launder money for both regions, and China sold military hardware to both regions.

The Human Rights Counsel is also a joke, comprised of counties like the Congo, India, Indonesia, Libya, Nigeria, Philippines, Romanai, and Saudi Arabia.

What a group. :bowrofl:

[kingkilburn]

Saddam got into power because we backed his takeover of the previous government.

We failed in Iran(as we should have) so we backed their enemy.






How many times does America have to fuck with the politics of other countries in this fashion? It failed in Korea. It failed in Vietnam, every time we did it. It failed in Cuba. It failed in Iran. It failed in Afghanistan. It failed in Iraq. It failed in Nicaragua, as well as all the other drug lords and crazy South American governments. Those are just off the top of my head. I know there are others.

Why can't we MIND OUR OWN DAMN BUSINESS?

[Corbic]

Saddam got into power because we backed his takeover of the previous government.

We failed in Iran(as we should have) so we backed their enemy.


How many times does America have to fuck with the politics of other countries in this fashion? It failed in Korea. It failed in Vietnam, every time we did it. It failed in Cuba. It failed in Iran. It failed in Afghanistan. It failed in Iraq. It failed in Nicaragua, as well as all the other drug lords and crazy South American governments. Those are just off the top of my head. I know there are others.

Why can't we MIND OUR OWN DAMN BUSINESS?

Please stop with your idiotic dribble.

The Ba'ath party over threw the British backed proxy Government. Saddam came to power after escaping from prison in ~1968 and took over in essentially a bloodless coup. There are several documentaries about him and he is actually a rather fascinating individual.

We succeeded in Korea (maintained the UN mandated lines). You can argue we succeeded in Vietnam (goal was to stop Communism from taking over the world - it didn't Socialism did). Cuba was because of Kennedy having a limp dick and freaking out last minute.

The bottom line is we like our American lifestyle. We like consuming 40% of the worlds resources, playing on Xboxs, keeping up with the Kardashians and working on 240sxs. This means we need to secure our interests over seas, this means you have to pick sides - sometimes you do good, sometimes you don't.

Our other problem is we have two strongly opposing political parties. I don't care which one you vote for, but they have very different goals, agendas and world views. It doesn't help that every 4-8 years one takes over and completely shifts everything the other had been doing.

[kingkilburn]

Who funded the Ba'ath take over?

Who backed the Democratic leader of the then still unified Korea?

The Cuban revolution happened before Kennedy was even running for president.

Arguing we succeeded in Vietnam proves you're full of shit.

[KA24DESOneThree]

The argument is simple.

Can the deaths of innocents be rightfully avenged with if the vengeful action results in the deaths of innocents?

It doesn't matter if the intention is to kill the guilty; the fact that we've killed innocents while avenging innocents puts us in the wrong. The "greater good" is an idea thought up by people who knew what they were doing was ethically wrong but needed a way to sleep at night. Bomb a thousand so that a hundred thousand may live. Kill a kid while killing 20 terrorists. That person died so that others may live.

It has been the policy of our military to murder civilians to bring about a faster truce, or to punish countries for what they've done.

[HalveBlue]

It has been the policy of our military to murder civilians to bring about a faster truce, or to punish countries for what they've done.

Yeah...no.

I'd like to see some factual evidence of said policy.

Civilians bear the brunt of war. It's been this way since time immemorial.

Our military is one of the few that actively seeks to reduce the impact war has on civilians and reduce collateral damage associated with military operations.

Certainly, civilian casualties will always be a fact of war. Unfortunately, this holds especially true in places like Iraq and Afghanistan, where US forces are engaged in fighting insurgencies. The nature of insurgency/COIN warfare almost guarantees that civilians will get caught up in the cross fire.

In a perfect world we wouldn't need to fight wars, and civilians wouldn't be subject to the miseries thereof.

In the absence of such a perfect world, the best we can hope for is to develop systems, capabilities, and doctrines that minimizes the impact war has on non-combatants.

[KA24DESOneThree]

Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, etc.

The nukes were dropped on Japan to prevent our military casualties and to show our power.

You been to Nagasaki? I have.

[Corbic]

Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, etc.

The nukes were dropped on Japan to prevent our military casualties and to show our power.

You been to Nagasaki? I have.

Your point? Have you been to Manchuria? Nanking?

In case you forgot.

Japanese war crimes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes)

R. J. Rummel, a professor of political science at the University of Hawaii, states that between 1937 and 1945, the Japanese military murdered from nearly 3,000,000 to over 10,000,000 people, most likely 6,000,000 Chinese, Indonesians, Koreans, Filipinos, and Indochinese, among others, including Western prisoners of war.

http://bp1.blogger.com/_h-JuY6aiBG4/RkkldmNcz3I/AAAAAAAAAjg/-7AB_Ldx6Uk/s400/japan+war+crime2.jpg

http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/37442-5/784_japan_nankingfoto_2010

[KA24DESOneThree]

Not our problem, broseph.

Are you trying to justify the killing of Japanese civilians by showing the atrocities committed by Japanese military actions?

[Corbic]

Not our problem, broseph.

Are you trying to justify the killing of Japanese civilians by showing the atrocities committed by Japanese military actions?

Wow, talk about ideologically warped.

You argue its imoral to respond to an act of violence with more violence because more people will get hurt - but then you have no problem sitting by and watching violence happen.


You also clearly do not understand "total war" or the limitations of technology in the 1940's.

Major cities where targets because the technology of the time did not allow the finding and pin point attacking of military support centers (factories, ect).

Also, it was "Total War" meaning every facet of each countries life was revolving around the war.

Those "civilians" are the farmers making food to feed enemy soldiers, they are the workers building bombs and planes, they are politicians voting for war, they are will and back bone of an enemy nation.

Each one you kill is one less cog in their warmachine.

[holemilk00]

Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, etc.

The nukes were dropped on Japan to prevent our military casualties and to show our power.

You been to Nagasaki? I have.
You desperately need a history lesson, the decision to drop the atom bomb (because we didn't have "nukes" yet) was made because it had been clearly evident that the Japanese people (civilians) were willing to fight to the death along side the Japanese army. And those that didn't would rather commit suicide instead of surrender to the allied armies. The decision was made to target those cities with the atom bomb in order to bring the war to a sudden stop, get ready for this, to SAVE civilian casualties in Japan. So your point is completely moot.

[Toi]

It has been the policy of our military to murder civilians to bring about a faster truce, or to punish countries for what they've done.

Bwuhahaha oh man, you know how EASY life would have been if that were the case.

You are seriously mistaken my friend.

Done plenty of tours there, OIF ~ OEF, convoy, forward convoy, Ravens, and several other things. The best time I had there was giving things to the kids of that country. While people like you complain about us we actually did something, but then we actually care.

[word sux]

Its really hard to read all this, there is so much media influence in just about every post in this thread. The best thing I've read in here is the comment about us not knowing the full story of whats behind the curtain. Everyone is only talking about the conflicts were involved in that make the news, do none of you realize the other places around the world that we have been in for decades doing basically the same mission as Iraq and Afghanistan? Do some research on whats going on in Djibouti Africa, or better yet since I'm probably 10 years older than most of you making the "were not the world police" argument, look up what happened in Kosovo and our reluctant involvement in that area through the UN. We were basically pulled into that situation through our UN alliances. SMH



Well I could have brought up the genocide by Suharto that we helped fund in East Timor but I didn't want to get the thread too off track

[holemilk00]

Well I could have brought up the genocide by Suharto that we helped fund in East Timor but I didn't want to get the thread too off track
You keep talking about conflicts that we "funded" like we were pumping money into these places while the atrocities were being committed and I hate to break it to you, but that's just not the case. There may be evidence of a slight overlap between our foreign policy having us involved in helping with one side of a conflict and the horrible acts that are revealed to the public later, but it was never the mission to go out and fund the extermination of millions of people through funding of a radical group during a hostile revolution.

Its like someone tried to explain to you earlier, what you are talking about is like blaming the bank for loaning a guy money and him going out and buying a gun with it and killing his family. Is it the banks fault his family is dead? No its still the mans fault because he made the decision to use the money for that.

We funded revolutions, coops, warlords, and so on that benefited our foreign policy. If in the end these groups went crazy with power and ended up being worse than the previous ruling faction/government then while its terrible, we can't be held accountable for that. Believe it or not the US government can't see the future.

Granted a lot of times we had to pick the lessor of two evils, when we should have kept our big ass noses out of the entire business. But this isn't always the case, and I have yet to see you post one that fits this scenario.

You're being the typical Monday morning quarterback. Its easy to sit here and judge the actions of the past, when you see the outcome of those actions from the present.

Also it would be a great pill of humility if a lot of us realized, we only know a tiny percentage of most of these stories being played out around the world in the last 100 years. As members of the none ruling party we're kept in the dark about most things. We only know what the heavily partisan new channels and media want us to know. Most of that is made up for "dramatic effect" and highly influenced by the current government and their relations with the media.

[Magical Trevor]

^
Yup.... this.

[word sux]

so far "lesser of two evils" is the best response I have heard but its the same thing I have been hearing over and over again


how about not getting involved or funding any foreign entity in the first place?


o and yes we supplied suharto with weapons at the peak of his atrocities. Yet we didn't take any action until 30 years later in the late 90's when we finally said enough is enough.

[holemilk00]

how about not getting involved or funding any foreign entity in the first place?




Because a completely closed government never last, it sets you up for failure as a country. Keynes theory of global economics and socialism has been tried and failed several times. Its impossible to be a part of a global economy like we live in today and not have a foreign policy and get involved around the world. Its like having a hardware store and not caring about anything around you. You're only going to sell what you can make in the back room. You don't care if the store down the street is having a sale, you don't care if your neighbor is getting robbed everyday, and you don't care if the guy across the street is making rocket fuel in a plastic container and it could blow up at any minute. How long do you think this little hardware store would be around? As shitty as it sounds that's the way the world works now because we living in a global economy, and have so since the turn of the century. If you aren't involved around the world, we won't be here for long. Its a tough pill to swallow but its the truth.

[holemilk00]

so far "lesser of two evils" is the best response I have heard but its the same thing I have been hearing over and over again




As for this, you mean everything I posted this is all you saw? Because I plainly said in this situation we should stay out of it. But that didn't work for your little rhetoric did it?

[kingkilburn]

Not our problem, broseph.

Are you trying to justify the killing of Japanese civilians by showing the atrocities committed by Japanese military actions?

It was our problem, broseph.

America and UK insisted upon sanctioning Japan and forcing them to keep a much smaller navy(in reaction to Russia getting their asses handed to them) out of fear of their growing power. Japan is a small place with little in the way of the natural resources need for industrialization. We blockaded them and forced them into a position of needing to use their military might to obtain even basic things like oil and wood.

I'm not excusing the horrific things they did but to act as if it was all unprovoked and didn't involve the US before pearl harbor is ignorant at best.

[kingkilburn]

Not funding idiots that now have guns because we just bought them for them doesn't make us a closed off country. It makes us a responsible one. Let the Department of Defense DEFEND the country not reach out democracy people to death.

And FUCK the CIA. There have been and continue to have way too many programs that undermine the country that not even congress and the president know about. The US through the CIA nearly single handedly made the South American cocaine trade AND the heroin trade through Afghanistan and south east Asia.




I'll say it again. America needs to mind it's own damn business. We can't even handle our own affairs so why do we insist on handling every other countries?

[Corbic]

It was our problem, broseph.

America and UK insisted upon sanctioning Japan and forcing them to keep a much smaller navy(in reaction to Russia getting their asses handed to them) out of fear of their growing power. Japan is a small place with little in the way of the natural resources need for industrialization. We blockaded them and forced them into a position of needing to use their military might to obtain even basic things like oil and wood.

I'm not excusing the horrific things they did but to act as if it was all unprovoked and didn't involve the US before pearl harbor is ignorant at best.

The sanctions on oil where placed in response to their invasion of China. Yes, America was well aware Japan would either attack or before forced to give up on their dreams of Imperial domination and the genocide of all non-Japanese Asians.

They attacked Pearl Harbor and not the Philippians - that was the surprise.


On a personnel note, I find it rather reprehensible and morally disturbing that you are questioning the validity and actions of the US in regards to WW2. Most humanitarians argue the US did not react soon enough or harsh enough.

Do no you honestly not grasp that MILLIONS of people were being systematically murdered by the Japanese and Germans? Dragged out into pits to be bayoneted, shot or simply buried alive all for shits and giggles?

I find it not hard, but impossible to believe that you give a fuck about any Iraqi civilian death or any of this other righteous bullshit your spewing.

[kingkilburn]

I'll start with this, ACTUALLY READ THE FUCKING POST BEFORE CALLING SOME ONE REPREHENSIBLE AND MORALLY DISTURBED.

So America gets to be an imperial nation but no one else? We sure as hell went stomping all over the globe in search of resources and labor. And the sanctions came before Manchuria. They started immediately after the Russo-Japanese war.



P.S.
We funded the early NAZI party too, knowing full well their views on ethnic minorities.

[KA24DESOneThree]

You argue its imoral to respond to an act of violence with more violence because more people will get hurt - but then you have no problem sitting by and watching violence happen.

Each one you kill is one less cog in their warmachine.

It is immoral for a government to coerce its citizens into paying taxes which are then used against the good of the country and are siphoned off to play world police. It is not the job of our government to protect the world; if you want to keep the peace, go be a mercenary.

It is immoral for a government to kill innocents regardless of their contributions to war effort; there was not much choice in a military-run, imperial Japan. How many of those killed were likely against the war effort and found every way not to contribute? Does that not matter? How many humanitarians deem the killing of innocents as collateral damage and shrug? What is your definition of innocent?

By your logic, which is unwilling to look at the citizens of a country as truly innocent or as truly independent, every single American is on the hook for the deaths of innocents by our military actions. Does that not mean that if we are attacked by these countries, we deserve it? After all, we haven't removed the warmongering politicians from office, haven't ceased doing business with the war profiteers, haven't ceased offering discounts to the military. You're heading down a slippery slope.

All of this exists in some sort of theoretical vacuum, by the way, where our country hasn't contributed to the collapse of multiple countries, funded "freedom fighters" who turned into terrorists, and generally stuck its nose where it doesn't belong for centuries to try and balance power where there can be no balance of power. We've been reaping what we've sown for centuries, and until we stop sowing the seeds of destruction, that's what we're going to get.

As an aside, I find it hilarious that pacifism is considered morally reprehensible and the obvious product of a disturbed mind.

[Corbic]

I am going to make the assumption that your post is entirely honest and sincere. In which case I am going to say you have very juvenile views of the world and geo politics.

In the grand scheme of things no one person or political party has any control over America. If Gore had been elected and 9/11 happened we would still have ended up in the “war on terrorism”. Some of the details would have changed but the overall story would remain the same. Regardless, Iraq and Afghanistan will be barely remembered as footnotes in American history. 4,000 people in a country of a 300 million are a drop in the bucket. The best comparison will be the Spanish American War. (Coincidentally was started under false pretenses but accomplished our goal of ridding European influences in the Western Hemisphere)

The US has major core objectives that no leader, regardless of political or ideological background can avoid. Our goal in many of our interactions with the world is not to actually “accomplish” a goal, but rather to prevent others from accomplishing their goals. Saddam represented a threat as he wanted to take dominance over the Middle East. If he could control the entire Gulf region he would then be able to dictate oil terms to the world. This was not in our best interest. Just like Afghanistan was harboring terrorists who wanted to lash out at America, again, not in our best interest.

We accomplished our goal by destabilizing both. So what if Iraq breaks into three federations in 5 years or Afghanistan never becomes a modern civilized country? The Middle East remains a collection of fractured governments and countries squabbling amongst themselves and competing to sell us oil.

Look at the former Yugoslavia. It had been in our interest to support the communist nation during the cold war to counter the Russians, but a unified (Serb lead) Yugoslavia with a collapsed economy, internal ethnic tensions and a powerful military was not a good situation in the 90’s post Soviet Union.

What resulted was a civil war that brought the attention of NATO and America to intervene, supporting the groups trying to succeed from Yugoslavia (Serbia). In the past Europe had supported the unification of the region. Today the region is now fractured and impoverished. The only thing that was accomplished was Serbia no longer has the ability to wage any sort of meaningful conflict and the rest of Europe can sleep easy at night.

You need to understand that the United States is so large, so powerful, that our goal is not always to win, nor does it need to be. Bosnia does not need to prosper or be happy for us to continue on. Also, as a global super power, no matter what the reaction the US makes we are going to have an impact. Even a choice of inaction would have had significant impact in Yugoslavia, so no matter what we did. However choosing to act or not act would have been of little consequence to the US, but for Yugoslavia either choice is a huge impact in their daily lives.

[KA24DESOneThree]

You have one of the most nationalistic views of US foreign policy I have ever seen typed.

Those actions, every one you posted, cost us money which could have been used in any number of ways. It's funny that a war for oil ended up being a war on oil, with US forces using hundreds of millions of gallons per year.

In addition, the US was never intended to go on the path of worldwide peacekeeping and meddling; in fact, we began as a nation dead-set on doing just the opposite. Through people advocating just what you are, the "greater good" as well as "stability" and lower prices through destabilizing countries and regimes, we lost our way and became the corrupt, morally bankrupt nation we now are. The "core objectives" you list are not the core objectives upon which the country was founded and illustrate the effect of weakness on a society unwilling to give people the respect they deserve.

The more people willing to accept the way things are, and the way things are set to be, the farther the US will fall. My idealism is heartfelt and I will never accept things the way they are; I never have. Our path is evil and we must change it.

[kingkilburn]

So you are saying that it is indeed ok for America to go around doing the very things you would demonize it's enemies for.

You are spouting off the status quo as if it is the only way for the world to operate. Anything made by man can be unmade by man and this habit of knowing what is best for others and enforcing that "knowledge" needs to be unmade.

[Ghost240]

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lwivi1pdr31qfwyc9o1_500.jpg

Just adding fuel to the fire.

[kingkilburn]

And of all those killed not a single one was ever more than a passing threat to America and most were no threat at all.

[Corbic]

You have one of the most nationalistic views of US foreign policy I have ever seen typed.

Those actions, every one you posted, cost us money which could have been used in any number of ways. It's funny that a war for oil ended up being a war on oil, with US forces using hundreds of millions of gallons per year.

In addition, the US was never intended to go on the path of worldwide peacekeeping and meddling; in fact, we began as a nation dead-set on doing just the opposite. Through people advocating just what you are, the "greater good" as well as "stability" and lower prices through destabilizing countries and regimes, we lost our way and became the corrupt, morally bankrupt nation we now are. The "core objectives" you list are not the core objectives upon which the country was founded and illustrate the effect of weakness on a society unwilling to give people the respect they deserve.

The more people willing to accept the way things are, and the way things are set to be, the farther the US will fall. My idealism is heartfelt and I will never accept things the way they are; I never have. Our path is evil and we must change it.

And you have the most nieve, juvenile and discounted views I've ever read.

The money it cost is insignificant, so are the lives. Any action one takes also has unforeseen consequences.

Read a book or two, you might learn something -

In the case of the US objectives - I'll cite "The Next 100 Years".

US Strategic Goals.

1: Complete Domination of North America by the US Army
2: Elimination of any threat to the US by any power in the Western Hemisphere
3:Complete control of all maritime approaches by the US Navy to preclude any possibility of invasion
4: Complete world domination of the worlds oceans to guarantee US safety and control of the worlds shipping trading system
5: Prevention of any other nations ability to rival US navel power.

I also hate to break it to you, America was born in war and has spent most of its time at war. It is who we are. One of the reasons we flourish is because we fight ware overseas. Europe was torn to pieces twice in the early 20th century while the US remained untouched.

So with all your belly aching - who is the model country/society? Who is a world savior that is truly "moral" and just? Who works only for the common good of the world?

China?
Russia?
Germany?
Turkey, Japan?

[Corbic]

And of all those killed not a single one was ever more than a passing threat to America and most were no threat at all.

How did America kill these people? Did we gas them? Burry them alive?

Are you saying our power and influence rivals that of God? That those in these countries have no responsibility over their own actions, that the rest of the world has no responsibility to intervene?

:facepalm:

[Corbic]

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lwivi1pdr31qfwyc9o1_500.jpg

Just adding fuel to the fire.

Can I play?

People Killed by Germany in the 20th Century - 120 million.

People killed by Mao - 78 million

Stallin - 28 million

Why don't we have a thread bitching about Germany?

[kingkilburn]

How did America kill these people? Did we gas them? Burry them alive?

Are you saying our power and influence rivals that of God? That those in these countries have no responsibility over their own actions, that the rest of the world has no responsibility to intervene?

:facepalm:

SOVEREIGNTY

We have no business going into other countries and doing as we please. End of discussion.

Can I play?

People Killed by Germany in the 20th Century - 120 million.

People killed by Mao - 78 million

Stallin - 28 million

Why don't we have a thread bitching about Germany?

This isn't about them. This is about us. What other countries do is much less my concern compared to what is done by my government.





Do you have no standard of behavior that you would hold our government to, or yourself? Would you go into someone's house and just decide for them what they should be doing with their life, or else?

Be the master of YOUR domain and leave others' alone until their masters ask for your assistance.

[Corbic]

SOVEREIGNTY


Do you have no standard of behavior that you would hold our government to, or yourself? Would you go into someone's house and just decide for them what they should be doing with their life, or else?


So if your neighbor is a crack head firing off a gun... you would not try and stop him? You'd just like him go about his business till a stray shot killed your kid or he came over and robbed you?

Other counties business is not your own because we are as powerful as we are. If you where Bosnia or Poland you would live in mortal fear of your enemies and wonder everyday what they where up too and planning.

I'm sure you would care a lot if one day you could not get gas for your car, if your money was worthless and you could not afford an iphone despite having a top paying job and a college degree or if another county invaded us.

[kingkilburn]

Name a single country that was a direct threat to America since the fall of the USSR. Name a country other than the USSR since the end of WW2.


I'm totally in favor of acting to protect your own but that isn't what we have been doing.

Being big and powerful is no excuse for being a bully. In fact it shows how much responsibility is need to wield that power. This is 1st level comic shit man.

http://www.popartuk.com/g/l/lgppr40105+great-power-great-responsibility-spiderman-art-print.jpg

The only people that threaten the value of the dollar are the ones in control of it. That is an entirely different issue and if you would like to be schooled in that one I invite you to start another thread.

[kingkilburn]

What happened to inalienable rights? Freedom and liberty are what this country is supposed to be about. It should make you sick to your stomach that our government would take others' liberty to fool you into thinking you have your own.

[Corbic]

This is 1st level comic shit man.

The only people that threaten the value of the dollar are the ones in control of it. That is an entirely different issue and if you would like to be schooled in that one I invite you to start another thread.

Either your that stupid, or just trolling now.

Going back to the question at hand, +100k deaths in Iraq. The US did not create the ethnic hate that exists between Sunni and Shiite populations in the country. Nor did we create the pent of anger of the majority from being subjected by the minority for 60 years.

The vast majority of those deaths, as previously explained to you, is the result of internal ethnic conflict - not the actions of the US.

Saying its our fault is like saying its Congresses fault that 35k Americans die annually because they let us drive cars.

Maybe you should look at the other side. Instead of "Evil US invaded poor Iraq cause we were mad" try...

"Stupid Iraq did not stop Al Qaeda from attacking the US - they should have known it would have evoked American rage and a US Military response in the Middle East resulting in civilian deaths".

What about - "Evil Saudia Arabia - funding Osama and Al Qaeda knowing full well the US would eventually react when Al Qaeda killed 3,000 Americans"

[holemilk00]

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lwivi1pdr31qfwyc9o1_500.jpg

Just adding fuel to the fire.

You know how many times this poster has been debated?? And never has the proof for any of those numbers been presented. Let's just take one of those numbers; 500,000 children killed in Iraq, do you really think with all the human rights organizations around the world that we could have killed half a million children in Iraq and not be help responsible for it on at least one global stage?? The UN wouldn't even let us get away with that one. Sorry, those numbers are as over inflated as gtrmans $150,000 GT-R.

[Corbic]

What happened to inalienable rights? Freedom and liberty are what this country is supposed to be about. It should make you sick to your stomach that our government would take others' liberty to fool you into thinking you have your own.

I didn't realize Iraqis where American citizens.

[kingkilburn]

Those rights are not given by our constitution. It is safeguarding them against the government taking them from us. Those are human rights.



EDIT:
The FED has done more to devalue the dollar than any other group could ever hope too.



What did Iraq have to do with 9/11? Even the Bush administration said they had nothing to do with it. Are we to punish every country in the world for not stopping it now?

[Corbic]

Those rights are not given by our constitution. It is safeguarding them against the government taking them from us. Those are human rights.



EDIT:
The FED has done more to devalue the dollar than any other group could ever hope too.



What did Iraq have to do with 9/11? Even the Bush administration said they had nothing to do with it. Are we to punish every country in the world for not stopping it now?

Why are you "punishing" the US for Sunni's killing Shiites? In your argument Iraq is just as responsible for 9/11 as we are for a marketplace suicide bombing.


No shit the FED is causing inflation - it makes American products more competitive with foreign ones and destabilizes Chinese investments into US debt.

[kingkilburn]

When did I ever say either of those? I specifically said Iraq had nothing to do with it.

[SR240DET]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned religion being an enabler. Innocent casualties are never ok, and should be avoided at all cost.

[Corbic]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned religion being an enabler. Innocent casualties are never ok, and should be avoided at all cost.

Which they are - but sometimes the technology is a limitation (as in WWII) or the definition of "Innocent" is not the same (Osama did not consider Wallstreet bankers innocent but actually the enablers)

[kingkilburn]

Comparing an act of terrorism to an act of war is apples to oranges. Osama knew they were innocent and wished to force change through fear of more innocent deaths. The Nazi and Imperial Japanese armies putting military factories beneath schools and hospitals makes loss of innocent life near unavoidable.

[speedracer1610]

I didn't kill anyone.

[kingkilburn]

If you are American people were killed in your name. That is what a democratic republic is all about.

Are you ok with that?

[jvsc91talon]

you just looooooove to bend words and fill your posts with neurotic fluff. when you can sit behind a keyboard and behave let me know, i'd love to continue to tell you you're wrong.

yes get the fuck out of this country you ingrate, of course our foreign policy is not perfect but you and the media make it seem like we are going out and looking for trouble. thats not the case at ALL and after 8 years in iraq i'd say it was a successful mission and hopefully further progression will occur in iraq through democratic rule. this is 2011 and there is no place for governments on this planet that rule through murder and corruption and strip its citizens of their natural rights as human beings. i believe its not our right to police the world, but our responsibility.

you probably don't agree, and i don't care.

HAHAHA 2nd most ignorant statement in the forum. If you believe this than why are YOU living in America? Have you not read the "Patriot Act" or even the NDAA???

[bb4_96]

You could literally make this the longest thread on Zilvia. Every day every party concerned could read up a little more history to post a little tidbit to thwart the opposing position. Or we can realize that this country has been decided for by individuals just like us all. With hugely, widely, radically opposing opinions (kinda what makes a politician a politician). So our history, recent and otherwise, will always be a huge clusterfuck of opposing opinions each posing it's source of ammunition for an opposing side.

I hope if i were getting my ass kicked by some psycho someone would come to my aid. On the other hand I'd be upset if I helped somebody out and I had to pay the price.

That simple argument can be argued all day, thats what it all boils down to. I find it a little silly it's turned into a history book bro down. Every facet of every conflict, military, political, socialogical, economical, demographical, emotional. Seriously? That coupled with the fact that not being around for half the conflicts cited makes passing judgement from our shoes seem a little asinine. It's like saying that the pension system of the previous generation is a good idea. I bet it looked great when it was first implemented, then we lived longer, the funds were borrowed against, payments in werent adjusted for times, linear levels of prosperity were assumed. Now it's a huge weight for the economy, but then it looked good.

hindsight...

[ralphandthequeen]

are these numbers casualties of war or legit US killings? big difference.. js

[Walperstyle]

^To the hipsters that make these fell good posters, it doesn't matter. Its easy to pull numbers from anywhere and say who is to blame.

There is thousands, literally Thousands of websites of people that sit at a computer and try to calculate figures. Most of these figures are made up of people that were not there. Any and all Media is Biased, no matter what they say otherwise. Yet people will link stats to other websites, and if enough people link to the same website, then hey, its got to be a credible source of information.

sorry if i'm striking a cord, but if many of you 'Researchers' and 'free thinkers' would spend more time attacking the real killers like Cancer, and Heart Disease, we'd be a society of 'winners'.

[kingkilburn]

A society of winners that will go to any lengths to defend stomping all over the globe fucking shit up for every one.

[KiLLeR2001]

Amazing people still believe Al Qaeda is responsible for 9/11. Two biggest threats to this world, Israel and the bankers in control of the FED.

[redline racer510]

Amazing people still believe Al Qaeda is responsible for 9/11. Two biggest threats to this world, Israel and the bankers in control of the FED.

+1 Has Israel helped us with Iraq,Afghanistan do they really stand by us or are they the "kid that lives with his rich parents". We have been supporting them for 40+ years are they independent yet? Look at every major terrorist cell in the middle east and the reason for them attacking us and other countries is because we support them. I would like to hear opinion on this please educate me.

[KiLLeR2001]

The reason why we continue to support Israel is because of the small group of individuals in control of our money supply. The government will tell you they are our most important Allies, but these people hate our guts especially since the majority of us do not share the same religious views.

America does all the brute force work, and Israel is the mastermind twiddling its fingers in the background saying "Excellent.", like Mr. Burns from the Simpsons. The countries of the middle east are aware of this which is why they don't like us. It's impossible to get correct information from the media, they will tell you terrorists of XYZ middle eastern country you've never heard of before are the cause, which in turn promotes Americans involvement in war.

They've been doing it since the beginning of time. See: Panic of 1907, WWI, Great Depression, WW2, Vietnam, and finally 9/11.

[Walperstyle]

A society of winners that will go to any lengths to defend stomping all over the globe fucking shit up for every one.

well at least you know you suck, now do something about it.

[kingkilburn]

You can have that "winning" all to yourself.

If you really want to make this a better place you should stop imposing your will through violence.

[Toi]

I love made up numbers, can we include the folks killed by Mongolians, and the EYE witness accounts of the slaughter during the crusades?

[Walperstyle]

You can have that "winning" all to yourself.

If you really want to make this a better place you should stop imposing your will through violence.

Try to make sense please.

[kingkilburn]

Seriously?

Fuck off. Quit bumping old shit just to try and get under my skin.

[Corbic]

Seriously?

Fuck off. Quit bumping old shit just to try and get under my skin.

Sounds like he is succeeding

[kingkilburn]

It's sad that a grown ass man feels the need to follow me around.

[Walperstyle]

Sounds like he is succeeding

Read all of his posts, he contributes nothing on this forum other then opinions. Mostly UFC and Off topic mumbo-jumbo. He's also never wrong.

[kingkilburn]

Who gives a shit what I do or don't contribute. I don't go around saying racist asinine shit to people and fucking hounding them for months. Get a fucking life.