Question for people with extended flca's

[Gription]

I've got this
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a311/strikebackbmx/Onevia/333501_252567948109912_175485989151442_871666_7058 863_or.jpg

and I want more of this
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs108.snc4/35761_403244072203_556327203_4963676_6853862_n.jpg

so I'm about to do this
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/376731_250676371655810_100001403482659_759290_1415 988927_n.jpg

now my question is, will this push the top part of the wheel out more past the fenders? I'm already rubbing as it is. I know a lot of dudes are slotting the top hole on the coilover mount but my wheels are super close to my coil springs already so thats not really an option for me.
I'm wanting to get around -5 degrees without having more poke. Can anyone in here tell me the outcome of a lengthened lower control arm as far as fitment and camber goes?

[codyace]

Let me ask this, are you doing this for pure aesthetics, or for performance? (although I assume aesthetics)

[Gription]

hahaha does my car look like i'm worried about aesthetics? c'mon now.

[lflkajfj12123]

slot the coilover lower mount top hole that bolts the knuckle

[Gription]

I know a lot of dudes are slotting the top hole on the coilover mount but my wheels are super close to my coil springs already so thats not really an option for me.

already stated, but thanks for the input man.

Also, I forgot to mention I'm using s14 control arms too.

[codyace]

hahaha does my car look like i'm worried about aesthetics? c'mon now.

Then why do you want -5* of camber for anything? I could only imagine the actual amount of camber gain under compression...you'll be pushing all over the place.

Lengthening the LCA will get the job done, but obviously be aware now of tie rod length, as well as Tension rod length as well (and how it can introduce a ton of caster, and bind on the inner bushing) as well (causing more suckage)


So again, are you doing this for pure aesthetics, or for performance? The short answer is that it's not gaining any performance edge...

[Gription]

More camber=more contact patch at full lock. I've got room to adjust the tie rods so I'm not worried about that, and I'm extending the arms after where the tension rod mounts so it won't have an effect on that.
Also, front camber doesn't change under compression.

[Carbomb]

do it.
its like a one time adjustment. just get it right lol.
people have done this before. on s13 tho... s14 is pretty good with s13. but you want more, get it

someone makes these and sells them already.
wider is better.

[Carbomb]

also just found this thread on some... its a good lol enjoy.
S13, S14, S15, R32, R33 extended lower control arms - Hardtuned.net (http://www.nissansilvia.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=502433)

[godrifttoday]

Then why do you want -5* of camber for anything? I could only imagine the actual amount of camber gain under compression...you'll be pushing all over the place.

Lengthening the LCA will get the job done, but obviously be aware now of tie rod length, as well as Tension rod length as well (and how it can introduce a ton of caster, and bind on the inner bushing) as well (causing more suckage)


So again, are you doing this for pure aesthetics, or for performance? The short answer is that it's not gaining any performance edge...


This ain't Nissan road racing this is zilvia. Haha with a nice tone of voice hehe

[lflkajfj12123]

it is an option for you because once you run more camber you have to run a spacer to make it flush again so it moves the wheel away from the coilover

trust me i've done it on my car mine is at -7 with a 33mm spacer

also if you have s14 control arms then your camber is already at around 4.5 depending on your ride height

the picture of your car looks like 4-5

the picture you want it to be like is more like -7-8

the top of your wheel will come in towards the wheel well and give you more clearance but like i said you're gonna need spacers

[codyace]

More camber=more contact patch at full lock. I've got room to adjust the tie rods so I'm not worried about that, and I'm extending the arms after where the tension rod mounts so it won't have an effect on that.
Also, front camber doesn't change under compression.

While running more camber enables more camber retention under full lock and compression, you also are now fighting some serious toe in and bump steer when doing it. Lets also not forget that when you're at full luck and your outer wheel is now got (theoretically speaking) 3 or 4* of camber vs the static of 5, your inside wheel (non loaded) is going to be loosing grip due to the massive camber...thus putting (as what I'd say) an undesirable amount of stress on the loaded wheel/tire combo...I just can't see it being helpful for any sort of performance control, regardless grip or drift. There is certainly a balance of static camber to be reached...I just think you're throwing way to much camber at a setup (especially on street tires), when you'd probably have better front grip with 2-3* of static camber.

Front camber does also change under compression, it's all relative to your control arms and how off your roll center is though. I assume at your ride height that they are probably aiming at the moon, so you're obviously going to loose camber under compression, as well as have odd toe movement as well, as regardless of the tension arm being in the same place, it's still a triangulated point and will control how the hub rotates upon compression)

Either way, bust of luck. Not trying to be a hater, just trying to make sense of it all.

[codyace]

This ain't Nissan road racing this is zilvia. Haha with a nice tone of voice hehe

:hide:

:l101:

[Matej]

First decide whether being able to drift 1% better at your local amateur parking lot event will be worth the increased attention from the police. :)

[fightinchunk]

This ain't Nissan road racing this is zilvia. Haha with a nice tone of voice hehe

that unfortunate

[Gription]

Is this nico forums?

[lflkajfj12123]

While running more camber enables more camber retention under full lock and compression, you also are now fighting some serious toe in and bump steer when doing it. Lets also not forget that when you're at full luck and your outer wheel is now got (theoretically speaking) 3 or 4* of camber vs the static of 5, your inside wheel (non loaded) is going to be loosing grip due to the massive camber...thus putting (as what I'd say) an undesirable amount of stress on the loaded wheel/tire combo...I just can't see it being helpful for any sort of performance control, regardless grip or drift. There is certainly a balance of static camber to be reached...I just think you're throwing way to much camber at a setup (especially on street tires), when you'd probably have better front grip with 2-3* of static camber.

Front camber does also change under compression, it's all relative to your control arms and how off your roll center is though. I assume at your ride height that they are probably aiming at the moon, so you're obviously going to loose camber under compression, as well as have odd toe movement as well, as regardless of the tension arm being in the same place, it's still a triangulated point and will control how the hub rotates upon compression)

Either way, bust of luck. Not trying to be a hater, just trying to make sense of it all.

all of this is important...

if you are drifting in a professional series

anywhere else it really makes no difference

i mean i have a lot of camber, 205/40 on a 9j, and r33 brembos

not once have i felt while drifting i needed more front grip or while braking

also this man doesn't seem to have any problem drifting fast with -9 degrees of camber

ImGVaFNihLo

[Gription]

Only pic I have right now.
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a311/strikebackbmx/Onevia/IMAG0233.jpg

Not sure where its at but its probably more than -5. whatever.

[PoorMans180SX]

The only reason that I would run extended LCA's is so that I can flip my camber plates and use them to adjust caster.

Caster is a much more effective method of adjusting the contact patch at full lock, because it's what actually causes the high-angle "lean" in the first place.

Adjusting caster with the upper strut mount is quite different that using the tension rod.

It's all a balance. How you adjust things, camber, caster, overcentering, etc. These all have to be balanced out, no one adjustment is going to make things awesome. Try and think outside the box, think of how your suspension moves and the way you can adjust the different points of the system and how it will effect things.

The guys in Britain do it kinda backwards.

[codyace]

that unfortunate

At times, but with anything the only way to learn is to balance all of your sources and to expose yourself.

Is this nico forums?

What's that supposed to mean (honestly)? DUnno if it's a situation where you don't want to learn or are just writing us (me) off as unknowing, or what (which is fine)


not once have i felt while drifting i needed more front grip or while braking

also this man doesn't seem to have any problem drifting fast with -9 degrees of camber


While I understand your point, to me it's relative; Much like the fact that you can have sex with your cousin isn't going to hurt anything, it's still wrong and should be avoided (maybe a bad example, but still the same).

TO me, even on an amature level, I'd think that users would rather sort out how their setup works, and why it works, rather than modding it in one fashion and hoping it works. Again, I'm not doubting that you couldn't do it...nor am I saying that you'll never drift ever with that much camber (as we all know you can)...my point is if you have the ability to actually modify your car, and have half a brain, why not try and 'maximize' your setup and really make it work?

I guess that's always been the confusing thing (to me) in regard to the amature and semi-am drift guys...they are quick to make a odd adjustment and live with, rather than trying to really sort it out. Not saying they are dumb or wrong for doing it that way (heck even I did that forever ago with my 240 with grip stuff) but I just don't get the point of 'living with it' when it's so easily fixed.



The only reason that I would run extended LCA's is so that I can flip my camber plates and use them to adjust caster.

Caster is a much more effective method of adjusting the contact patch at full lock, because it's what actually causes the high-angle "lean" in the first place.

Adjusting caster with the upper strut mount is quite different that using the tension rod.

It's all a balance. How you adjust things, camber, caster, overcentering, etc. These all have to be balanced out, no one adjustment is going to make things awesome. Try and think outside the box, think of how your suspension moves and the way you can adjust the different points of the system and how it will effect things.

The guys in Britain do it kinda backwards.

[slider2828]

The only reason that I would run extended LCA's is so that I can flip my camber plates and use them to adjust caster.

Caster is a much more effective method of adjusting the contact patch at full lock, because it's what actually causes the high-angle "lean" in the first place.

Adjusting caster with the upper strut mount is quite different that using the tension rod.

It's all a balance. How you adjust things, camber, caster, overcentering, etc. These all have to be balanced out, no one adjustment is going to make things awesome. Try and think outside the box, think of how your suspension moves and the way you can adjust the different points of the system and how it will effect things.

The guys in Britain do it kinda backwards.

OMG that is a great idea.... I assume you are on a s13 chassis with S14 LCA, so the front top hats on coilovers should line up and all you need to do is turn the top hats?

If I had adjustable FLCA's like from PBM, then I would be able to adjust camber and castor on the fly and adjust the castor "more" correctly where by moving the entire suspension instead of just pivoting it but adjust the tc rods.

Is that correct?

[PoorMans180SX]

OMG that is a great idea.... I assume you are on a s13 chassis with S14 LCA, so the front top hats on coilovers should line up and all you need to do is turn the top hats?

If I had adjustable FLCA's like from PBM, then I would be able to adjust camber and castor on the fly and adjust the castor "more" correctly where by moving the entire suspension instead of just pivoting it but adjust the tc rods.

Is that correct?

That is correct good sir, but my flca's will be extended by 25mm on each side and I will be running wide fenders to compensate.

Eventually I will step up to PSM's flca.

[lflkajfj12123]

@codyace

drifting isnt real motorsports well in my opinion

sliding a car around is an absurd thing to do so the absurd modifications go hand in hand

everything you said makes complete perfect sense and that is how i would modify my car if i was using it for grip racing

i understand how to maximize my car to perform but instead i'll use that knowledge to maximize my setup to look cool (there's a lot that goes into making a low car work too ya know lol)

drifting is like 75% looks and 25% driving

[slider2828]

That is correct good sir, but my flca's will be extended by 25mm on each side and I will be running wide fenders to compensate.

Eventually I will step up to PSM's flca.

Sweet man.... just sweet!!!! But how do you measure accurate on how far to adjust the castor through the top hats? eye ball? bubble leveler?

[ManoNegra]

there is a formula to measure caster with a camber gauge
look up the SmartCamber gauge instruction manual if you are so inclined.

[codyace]

Sweet man.... just sweet!!!! But how do you measure accurate on how far to adjust the castor through the top hats? eye ball? bubble leveler?

If you have a camber gauge, you can can get a semi accurate reading by doing a backyard caster sweep (15* L and R from center, take a camber reading at each and then do some subtraction or addition and some mulitplication...google it as I can't recall off top of my head).

I would love to see if there could be a way to have Mustang caster/camber plates adapted to our cars...I should really look into it as it isn't complicated, and their options are great.


drifting isnt real motorsports well in my opinion

sliding a car around is an absurd thing to do so the absurd modifications go hand in hand

everything you said makes complete perfect sense and that is how i would modify my car if i was using it for grip racing

i understand how to maximize my car to perform but instead i'll use that knowledge to maximize my setup to look cool (there's a lot that goes into making a low car work too ya know lol)

drifting is like 75% looks and 25% driving

Understood...I guess I often forget the looks aspect/style of drifting, namely as I'm not really involved with that side of it. TO say it's not a motorsport may be a bit hard, as I'll be the first to admit that I don't have the balls to be throwing my car sideways near a wall at speed haha...it's a skill to say the least.

However even if I was a drifter, I think i'd get nerded out with the suspension stuff....in fact I love reading some of the articles (namely the MotoIQ ones) on how they setup the cars to work well...some neat stuff in there, that all forms of car guys can enjoy.

[BOROSUN]

stance has a caster/camber plate available.

[Gription]

Pretty much everything s0apgun said is on point. I kind of want to just want to make my car to where people will look at it and say "theres no way he drifts it like that". We get nerdy with suspension still, just in different ways :D

[slider2828]

there is a formula to measure caster with a camber gauge
look up the SmartCamber gauge instruction manual if you are so inclined.

If you have a camber gauge, you can can get a semi accurate reading by doing a backyard caster sweep (15* L and R from center, take a camber reading at each and then do some subtraction or addition and some mulitplication...google it as I can't recall off top of my head).

I would love to see if there could be a way to have Mustang caster/camber plates adapted to our cars...I should really look into it as it isn't complicated, and their options are great.



Understood...I guess I often forget the looks aspect/style of drifting, namely as I'm not really involved with that side of it. TO say it's not a motorsport may be a bit hard, as I'll be the first to admit that I don't have the balls to be throwing my car sideways near a wall at speed haha...it's a skill to say the least.

However even if I was a drifter, I think i'd get nerded out with the suspension stuff....in fact I love reading some of the articles (namely the MotoIQ ones) on how they setup the cars to work well...some neat stuff in there, that all forms of car guys can enjoy.

Interesting guys will try.

[fckillerbee]

Do what makes you happy.

Hell, if you really want to make it a challenge and have people in awe, drift with 20's on a bone stock KA. People thought it was cool to see my bone stock spinning 18 inch 26lb wheels. I was pretty low....no crazy camber though. just -4.5 degrees in the front.

[sidewayz240]

Let me ask this, are you doing this for pure aesthetics, or for performance? (although I assume aesthetics)
hahaha does my car look like i'm worried about aesthetics? c'mon now.



I kind of want to just want to make my car to where people will look at it and say "theres no way he drifts it like that".

So pure aesthetics it is.

[95KA-Turbo]

Then why do you want -5* of camber for anything? I could only imagine the actual amount of camber gain under compression...you'll be pushing all over the place.

Lengthening the LCA will get the job done, but obviously be aware now of tie rod length, as well as Tension rod length as well (and how it can introduce a ton of caster, and bind on the inner bushing) as well (causing more suckage)


So again, are you doing this for pure aesthetics, or for performance? The short answer is that it's not gaining any performance edge...

Suddenly the offset spacers on the 326 Power tension rods made sense:

http://www.326power.co.jp/pic-labo/llimg/480480.jpg

[Gription]

Then why do you want -5* of camber for anything? I could only imagine the actual amount of camber gain under compression...you'll be pushing all over the place.

Lengthening the LCA will get the job done, but obviously be aware now of tie rod length, as well as Tension rod length as well (and how it can introduce a ton of caster, and bind on the inner bushing) as well (causing more suckage)


So again, are you doing this for pure aesthetics, or for performance? The short answer is that it's not gaining any performance edge...

http://www.motormavens.com/emAlbum/albums/Yoshi%20Shindo/Carspotting/Walker%20Wilkerson%20FD%20S13/_fullsize/035.jpg ???

[icedsole]

cody ace is a cool dude with top performance in mind :cool:

id like to give my .02 on this subject too!

ive driven a range of s chassis with different alignment settings (everyone should setup their car to how they like it) and i have always preferred the cars with more front camber.
usually in the 4 to 7 range. they just feel more planted to me. i think sometimes people get jumbled and caught up on all the technical aspects of suspension angles jazzy jazz
stuff. ive never understood any of it, i just go off of how it feels.


a lot of dudes in FD are running lots of front camber. my friend walker is running -7 on his and he said it was the best for him, out of all the settings he has tried.
also nikolay was a newcomer to the -7 range this year, he said it felt like the car had too much front grip and he wasnt sure if he liked it. im not sure what he has decided
for next season, but maybe he will go back to conservative.

i dont think there is a right and wrong way to align your car, its all how YOU want it to feel :bow:

[ShakotanGazelle]

its all how YOU want it to feel
^^^^^^^^^^^^^

just go do whatever you want and if you like it, then stick to it. dont like it? you can always go back.
btw that car looks fucking rad :)

and whats so special about those 326 tension rods?

[95KA-Turbo]

They are spaced out to make up for the LCA being lengthened. Look at the heim joints.

[chiboy002]

try slotting the top of the coil, where the actual camber plate is if you want more neg

seen it done, idk how safe it is but thats up to yuo

[Tearlessj]

There are easier ways to do this. Drill another hole in the lower coil over mount. Slot the upper shock mount. Save up and get PSM FLCAs?

[PoorMans180SX]

There are easier ways to do this. Drill another hole in the lower coil over mount. Slot the upper shock mount. Save up and get PSM FLCAs?

Extending the flca is arguably as "easy" and has a lot more benefits then either of those.

And you extend outside of the tension rod, so there's no need for those not-so-special 326 rods.

[Gription]

There are easier ways to do this. Drill another hole in the lower coil over mount. Slot the upper shock mount. Save up and get PSM FLCAs?

This was covered a while ago chief. Slotting the upper mount wouldn't give me hardly any extra adjustment and the allen bolts on mine are already hitting the strut tower.


And you extend outside of the tension rod, so there's no need for those not-so-special 326 rods.

This /\/\ I'm not understanding why the tension rods need to be offset at all if the mounting point on the control arm isn't being changed? Why not make offset sway bar end links too??? Maybe I'm missing something but it doesn't make sense to me.

[95KA-Turbo]

You wouldn't need those tension rods if you are modding OEM LCAs, but if you have adjustable LCAs and are making the adjustments from the inside mounting point it would tweak the tension rod mounting location.

Also, I think Tearlessj is talking about slotting the strut tower so you can get more camber adjustment before hitting it.

[codyace]

ive driven a range of s chassis with different alignment settings (everyone should setup their car to how they like it) and i have always preferred the cars with more front camber.
usually in the 4 to 7 range. they just feel more planted to me. i think sometimes people get jumbled and caught up on all the technical aspects of suspension angles jazzy jazz
stuff. ive never understood any of it, i just go off of how it feels.


Without a doubt driver feel is a huge deal with it all, and I'll be the first to admit that there are things even I prefer different from the norm.
Edit: In that same respect though, there is a still a correct 'base' as to where to start from IMO, with minor changes being more suited to the driver/car/track/tire

I guess my thing with the Camber, is that while you/others have it setup that way and it may feel good, it seems that the only reason it feels good is due to the manipulation of the suspension to 'sorta kinda' work at speed (if that makes any sense). Sure running a ton of static camber may work out for some grip while sliding and it leans over, I do think that less camber would need to be ran if the caster issue was addressed and setup (as in the end the caster curve persay has a bigger change on it all).


Either way, just neat discussing the stuff as in the end (as I've said) it's always cool to see what works for everyone to form the better opinion on it all. Just like the old heads say, a pie can be baked in the best oven, but it will only be as good as it's ingredients :D

[silviaguy240]

a lot of dudes in FD are running lots of front camber. my friend walker is running -7 on his and he said it was the best for him, out of all the settings he has tried.
also nikolay was a newcomer to the -7 range this year, he said it felt like the car had too much front grip and he wasnt sure if he liked it. im not sure what he has decided
for next season, but maybe he will go back to conservative.

i dont think there is a right and wrong way to align your car, its all how YOU want it to feel :bow:

yep, 2 years ago at Wall i was hanging out by the VLED pit because a local shop was Dean Kearneys techs for the weekend and i think they said he was running -9 up front and like -2.5 out back on his S14.

[derass]

Nobody has mentioned that extended LCAs are required with big steering angle to gain clearance between the wheel and frame rail (inner fender) at full lock.

How much are people extending by? I have seen 25-30mm, and will likely be going 30mm on my S13 arms. S14 LCAs are 10mm longer than S13, correct?