Occupy Wall Street vs. Tea Party

[BustedS13]

http://i.imgur.com/t1onp.jpg

i'd like a conservative to explain to me why one is fine and the other is a bunch of hippies with no message plz. jon stewart huffington post weed

[negrosx13]

Seem to be like people have started occupy there stock exchanges aka "wall street" in japan,vancouver,Toronto,etc,etc. Global occupation??

[az_240]

gIcqb9hHQ3E

^^^^kinda off topic but watch this.

[negrosx13]

I don't see Obama giving that speak.. This whole thing is gonna end with world wide revolutionary battle with the government to fix the problem with the banks. The European people already started there riots

[Mrpopo]

Occupy won't get anything done because they aren't organized. You can argue whatever you want to me but I don't care. I've been to occupy wall street and occupy Atlanta, and it's mass hysteria free for all.

[TheWolf]

I think both sides have a message and aren't a bunch of loose group hippies/extremists. They are the formation of the frustrations of both parties as both sides have become polarized. The country has reached a fork in the road. There's no longer a "middle of the road" position.

[Mrpopo]

True there is a divide now but the tea party conservative side is bigger by far. Just look at what they have done already. The occupy movement is small and unorganized. Until they get some leadership and specified goals it won't go anywhere. In Atlanta it was about two hundred people tops and half of them were homeless people trying to get free pizza.

Voting the corrupt politicians out of office is the biggest and first step in fixing the partnerships with wall street. We can't determine what private companies do but we can hold politicians who are in bed with greedy companies liable and fire them. If we keep giving our government power over things this won't be a free country anymore. I don't want socialism in this country and neither does the vast majority of it's people. Socialism and communism don't work. They never have they never will.

[upsdude]

"bought congress"

simple yet totally accurate description of our federal legislature...california's legislature is totally bought off as well

[Matej]

Ironically, when I think of the government having too much power, I think of a Tea Party/conservative-run government.

[wonpoo]

im still confused about the WHOLE OCCUPY thingy...seriously...some one enlighten me...or share a link with some background info please.

im super interested now.

[BustedS13]

im still confused about the WHOLE OCCUPY thingy...seriously...some one enlighten me...or share a link with some background info please.

im super interested now.

basically, a bunch of people from pretty much every demographic imaginable are upset by the amount of power major corporations possess, but because all the big news outlets are run by major corporations, most of the coverage you'll see just shows stoned college kids acting like jackasses. it's a non-partisan movement, but that will change as Fox News keeps making light of the whole thing. eventually some democrats will make some speeches, the whole thing will swing left, everybody will go home to re-elect Obama or some other piece of shit, and nothing will be accomplished. watch your telescreen, prole

[wonpoo]

ahahah sorry i made my post kinda early i scrolled down farther in the off-topic chat and found the Occupy wall street thread...

thank you for clarifying things up for me...what really amazes me is that people are just now realizing that major corporations control everything...man people need to get with the program...ahahah

but yeah i can really careless about these protest im interested because i've seen some flyers floating around my community college campus about some rally and occupy our city hall bs...im from a small town in the Central valley of California yeah...

LAME! :)

[ronmcdon]

Both sides don't really have effective leadership.
The tea party is probably worse off imo with their association with crazies like Palin & Beck.

Personally I'm not sure if all this will matter at the end of the day.
There's just no way any politician won't be tempted by corruption.
Even if lobbying were banned, there would be other forms of enticement.

It's not going to change anytime soon.
I would bet that if the economy was good, people wouldn't care if Bill Gates was president.

[BustedS13]

I'd vote for Bill Gates. He's a billionaire angel.

[ronmcdon]

Another way to look at this (presumably from a conservative perspective) is that if gov't isn't going to do anything to limit corporate power, then why have it at all?
At least we pay less taxes & cut out the middleman.

Who do you have more faith in, our gov't or the free market?
If you don't believe in Obama, whats the next best thing, Ron Paul, Romney?

Honestly I'm undecided on this one.
I'm not a huge fan of Obama, but it could be worse.
Really looking forward to what happens in the next elections.

[kingkilburn]

I see the tea party(as it was before the republican take over) and the 99% as attacking the same beast from different angles. One group wants less power for the government while the other wants less for big business and banks. Considering that big business and government scratch eachothers backs to further their power I see both rablerousers as doing good.


On a side note. How in the hell did the tea party go from extreme far left to far right in the blink of an eye? The republicans change voting bases with the quickness.

[Neurowave]

Tea Party got co-opted to what is is now. Their goals are very much in line with the occupy movement as the OP's pic points out.

The occupy movement is small ...
These pics are just from this weekend too.

http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/occupy101711/s_o15_0RTXXTDX.jpg
^ Times Square

http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/occupy101711/s_o21_29279022.jpg
^ Vancouver

http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/occupy101711/s_o31_15120624.jpg
^ Berlin

http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/occupy101711/s_o41_0RTXXT0B.jpg
^ Madrid

http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/occupy101711/s_o05_0RTXXSDG.jpg
^ Seoul

[ronmcdon]

I thought the economy was doing well in Korea (if not also Germany).

[BustedS13]

Who do you have more faith in, our gov't or the free market?
If you don't believe in Obama, whats the next best thing, Ron Paul, Romney?


Ron Paul goes against the grain with a few things for me, but i'd vote for him, given the chance. i'm feeling apathetic about the whole thing honestly.

On a side note. How in the hell did the tea party go from extreme far left to far right in the blink of an eye? The republicans change voting bases with the quickness.

i don't remember the tea party ever being left-leaning... but the right definitely harnessed them.

[DJDANGER24]

anybody read this yet?

Ron Paul Announces Ambitious (http://www.ronpaul2012.com/2011/10/17/ron-paul-announces-ambitious-%e2%80%98plan-to-restore-america%e2%80%99/)

...stopping foreign aid, ending foreign wars...

YES! Our countries problems are more serious than BS happening anywhere else. Time to focus on our own shit and make it right again (if it was ever right to begin with lol)

[word sux]

we need a revolution

[I LUV MY S13]

we need a revolution


Jefferson did say to have a healthy government we need one every 20 years.

[word sux]

Jefferson did say to have a healthy government we need one every 20 years.


sounds about right

[dato]

Ron paul!!!!, he knows his stuff, no lie

[Matej]

I thought the economy was doing well in Korea (if not also Germany).
It is. People just have more passion there, and believe they have it bad even though they are better off than the average American. I am sometimes surprised and saddened to see what Americans put up with. I think the average American is so worked to death that he is too tired/blind to protest, and instead will just curse under his breath and fall asleep on the couch.

[slowvia]

True there is a divide now but the tea party conservative side is bigger by far. Just look at what they have done already. The occupy movement is small and unorganized. Until they get some leadership and specified goals it won't go anywhere. In Atlanta it was about two hundred people tops and half of them were homeless people trying to get free pizza.

Voting the corrupt politicians out of office is the biggest and first step in fixing the partnerships with wall street. We can't determine what private companies do but we can hold politicians who are in bed with greedy companies liable and fire them. If we keep giving our government power over things this won't be a free country anymore. I don't want socialism in this country and neither does the vast majority of it's people. Socialism and communism don't work. They never have they never will.

Not to promote socialism or communism... buuuuutttt....
China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_People's_Republic_of_China)

[kingkilburn]

China is neither communist or socialist. It's a massive fascist capitalist single party dictatorship.

[Walperstyle]

If is hilarious to see people in North America Protest. Especially Canada, where UN-employment is still single digits. Other places in the world, yeah... They have a valid reason to be angry, but then that's what happens to countries with little resources, and minimal exports.


Occupy won't get anything done because they aren't organized. You can argue whatever you want to me but I don't care. I've been to occupy wall street and occupy Atlanta, and it's mass hysteria free for all.

Thank you!


Out of the millions of angry upset people, only a small percentage of them are there for a valid reason, the rest are looking for attention.

To many of us working class people, we look at it like a bunch of people that are taking the easy way out by complaining to government. How about actually doing good in your community?

And whats with this latest generation expecting everything to be handed to them? Yeah, ok, so some of you have a University degree, but did you ever stop to realize that your degree isn't worth anything when you have a few million other people with the exact same piece of paper? no, you didn't. Stop complaining to the government or corporations.

I actually heard some student complain about how University should be free. YEAH, GOOD LUCK! It can never be free. This is what separates classes of people so we are not all poor. Education is power, and the people teaching it don't work for free.

I work in the Trades, and there is plenty of work to be had. Even in the slow times.

I'm not for or against any type of government, but these protests are just a bunch of misguided people angry and venting when they should be building a better tomorrow. Create Change, don't expect government to do anything about it.

A lot of people killed themselves in the 30's because they couldn't handle the pressure or find a way out... maybe some more 'thinning of the herd' needs to happen.

:wan:

we need a revolution

Yeah that is great, but have you seen some of these people at the protests? It's a great idea when someone actually has a plan, not a bunch of weed.

Truth is the US started selling itself out in the 70's when it started closing down factories. Companies got bigger, and started shifting to overseas manufacturing. Then in the 80's, people really caught onto the electronics and goodies they could buy, but the corporations can't turn a profit on union labor, so that leads us to now, where your great American Ideas are now being built in another country, thus CEO's and Factores take all the money.

Many of you called Steve Jobs a Hero. The Ipod may have been designed here, but it was built overseas. Steve Jobs, and others like him are the problem for taking advantage of us, the consumer. They basically sold out the country much like Indians sold land for Blankets and Wiskey. Our generation needed to have its Ipods, computers, and trinkets. And China was glad to have children make it for us. This is why China has a growing middle class, and the US has a shrinking middle class.


Edit: i'm still writing. I have a solution

The Solution
Attitude Change, and a few laws need to 'go away'.


Example
Laws and Regulations have killed small business. Example, It costs about 1.5 billion dollars for any new car to come to market. This is stupid. There is no reason why cars need 10 airbags, a certain number of crumple zones, special emission standards (while heavy industry had none, or little). Certain laws and regulations are so strict, its impossible for the little guy to enter a market and compete for a percentage of a business, thus leaving major Auto Companies total control of the direction of the automobile market. On top of this, Unions limit the profit margin. Within Globalization, profit margin is very important, being the rest of the world does not have the same Luxury Union benefits. Thus, Unions need to be phased out. Especially considering labor laws already protect workers as long as they are doing the job correctly. Solution: eliminate bogus safety laws for consumer products, and kill off a few unions. I bet there is a lot of people in Detroit that would come back to work at half of what they were making right now, non union.

Example 2
How is it that an Oil Company owns the legal rights to run Lithium Ion batteries in an Automobile? Copyright and Patent Laws are bogus and broken anyways. Eliminate them, but tax foreign importers of similar products. AKA, outsiders to the country should be taxed if they want to enter 'our' market. Get some money back to the people, and provide some protection to home based business. And for Pete's sake, get rid of the lawyers out there that are limiting growth to protect a companies bogus copyright/patent.

Example 3
Maybe I shouldn't sue McDonalds when I spill my coffee. There is far too many people going to court over the stupidest things. A few months back some guy was telling me how his brother was killed driving his Lancer. His parents are taking Mitsubishi to court saying he thought he was driving a Rally Car, and its false advertisement on the part of Mitsubishi. things like this should never go to court Companies shouldn't need to spend millions of dollars to lawyers to protect themselves against stupid people. When this happens, the costs filter down to the consumer, aka, you and I. (I also believe major flaws with Toyota should have never gone to court either. Driver eduction should have been improved instead, this leads me to example 4)

Example 4
Education. Its important to realize that education is very important, only if it gets you something in return. If you have a few degrees, but are living on Government Cheese, that's ok as long as you are happy. Students should never 'expect' a job waiting for them in any field, but rather be self motivated to find or create opportunity. The Government and Law shouldn't limit them either. What I mean by this is; it is great to have a dream, get educated, but make sure you never stay static. Be interested and engaged in different fields, and if you seek employment after school, make sure you are prepared to move, find, or create it. Never Expect it to be there for you. Business is ever changing. Also, work hard. As the world gets smaller, your competitors get closer.

When I was a kid, we had no Internet. Now its a major utopia of knowledge, with many people offering free education through places such as youtube. Yet more people watch some soldier yelling at the police (and I'm sure some of those officers served too) and comment about how bad things are. Part of this 'attitude change' needs to come from us. We need to stop feeding into mass hysteria, and start being more motivated to learn, create, and build. Not complain and comment or waste excessive time in leisure activities.

Things are not all that bad, but yes, they can be better. Compare yourself with a child I sponsor in Ethiopia whom use to use her families human waste to fertilize the garden so they could eat on a weekly basis (not daily). You really don't have it bad at all, but yes, we can all use some change, but this time, lets not change to protect the lazy and stupid people. Rid of some bogus laws, unions and lawyers. Allow the Creativity of people bring some new breath to the country that use to make everything.

[word sux]

If is hilarious to see people in North America Protest. Especially Canada, where UN-employment is still single digits. Other places in the world, yeah... They have a valid reason to be angry, but then that's what happens to countries with little resources, and minimal exports.




Thank you!


Out of the millions of angry upset people, only a small percentage of them are there for a valid reason, the rest are looking for attention.

To many of us working class people, we look at it like a bunch of people that are taking the easy way out by complaining to government. How about actually doing good in your community?

And whats with this latest generation expecting everything to be handed to them? Yeah, ok, so some of you have a University degree, but did you ever stop to realize that your degree isn't worth anything when you have a few million other people with the exact same piece of paper? no, you didn't. Stop complaining to the government or corporations.

I actually heard some student complain about how University should be free. YEAH, GOOD LUCK! It can never be free. This is what separates classes of people so we are not all poor. Education is power, and the people teaching it don't work for free.

I work in the Trades, and there is plenty of work to be had. Even in the slow times.

I'm not for or against any type of government, but these protests are just a bunch of misguided people angry and venting when they should be building a better tomorrow. Create Change, don't expect government to do anything about it.






This is the dumbest shit I have heard in awhile.


people are protesting so we don't end up a fucking 3rd world country. I am a "working class person" and I am angry as hell at the government and these corporations that are bleeding our countries dry.


apathy is unforgivable

[Walperstyle]

This is the dumbest shit I have heard in awhile.


people are protesting so we don't end up a fucking 3rd world country. I am a "working class person" and I am angry as hell at the government and these corporations that are bleeding our countries dry.


apathy is unforgivable

Read everything I wrote, then tell me what you plan on doing about it. I think you fail to realize that you and I are also part of the problem.

(BTW: you are not 49 years old, you are probably mid 20's?. I know this because you said you were in Spanish class (middle school) sept 11th, 2001)

[Mrpopo]

People should be protesting at the capital or white house not wall street. What do they think, some exec is gonna come down and start writing checks? Stupid. The politicians need to hear us and our votes not wall street. Those people are looking out the windows laughing literally because the government has us so fleeced into thinking it's someone else's fault. Banks are reckless and greedy yes, but the legal system needs to deal with them. Legislation and regulation is what gave these corporations their motivators. All these home loans in default are because of frank and Dodd and their tarp bill forcing banks to loan people money who can't afford it. Most school loans come from the government too.

We need to fix our government!

[BustedS13]

The politicians need to hear us and our votes not wall street.

and unless the protestors are physically in front of politicians, how will they ever hear them? it's not like this is a global movement getting daily news coverage or anything. it's not like we have means of communication that don't require face-to-face contact.

oh btw what's your address? i need to mail this reply to you so you can read it

[Mrpopo]

They won't care unless it's in their ears

[sam&cheese]

Exactly Mrpopo. At this point physical interaction is whats needed. Emails, calls, protesting and most of this other crap is useless. They don't care, they are rich and your not. They are just fine and comfortable in their positions and the people have little effect on that. They just worry about pleasing whomever is putting money in their pockets.

Periodic revolution, “at least once every 20 years,” was “a medicine necessary for the sound health of government.”

I'm not talking about walking around with a banner either...

[Walperstyle]

Mrpopo, the problem is most angry bent out of shape people are not smart enough to outline a plan. Most of those protestors sound like little annoying dogs 'yapping' away.

These protests are great, but need some leadership to talk with government, law and corporations to make the minor changes.

Btw, people here need to stop hating corporations. In your country, you have the ability for joe average to become a multi-millionaire overnight, its a lot harder, even in Canada. Its big corporations foreign trade and monopoly that are the issue. Some of the tax shelters a corporation have is really smart. I'd personally take advantage if I were you.

stop letting the American people buy the cheaper product, because they are un-knowingly selling out the country and making these CEO's richer, and aiding the closure of factories in the US to cheaper offshore jobs.

[Mrpopo]

I love the United States of America. I also love capitalism. What I don't love is greed. Our justice system is not serving justice the same to everyone.

[Toi]

Let them protest, let them have their voice, let them be as unorganized as they want. I didn't give 13 years of my life to have their freedoms removed.

If we can let a bunch of loony church going tards protest military funerals we can allow this to happen as well!!!

[DJDANGER24]

Let them protest, let them have their voice, let them be as unorganized as they want. I didn't give 13 years of my life to have their freedoms removed.

If we can let a bunch of loony church going tards protest military funerals we can allow this to happen as well!!!

Fuckin ay, amen to that shit

[mantas]

Fuckin ay, amen to that shit


:bowdown:

Go to Europe - (where I'm from), and then you will understand why America is the shit!

Why is America such a great place to line in?

CAPITALISM!

Liberals want this country to turn socialist/communist. I've experienced that first hand, and it ain't pretty. If you want a taste of it go visit Europe/China and you will appreciate this country for what it is. You will run back with your tail up your ass, and you will appreciate big homes, big cars, fast food, and cheap gas.

The "occupy wall-street" groups in this county have the right to assembly, but they should not shove that communist POV down our throats about $20/hr minimum wage, debt forgiveness, free healthcare etc. - if they want all that they need to move the F out of this country.

This nation was built on innovation, hard work, and freedom. It's called survival of the fittest, not crying of the pussies.

[Walperstyle]

^its the ex cushy union job mentality. Everyone was spoon fed for so many years, they keep on expecting more money, more paid days off etc.

pussies.

[T chop]

Tea party started just because they couldn't handle having a black democrat as the boss.

[kingkilburn]

The teaparty started decades ago as a movement against unfair taxation. The republicans took it over from the inside and changed the message.

[RJF]

Tea party started just because they couldn't handle having a black democrat as the boss.

Show where the tea party has made race an issue.

Meanwhile, the Occutards are the most vile, anti-Semitic racists out there that want to destroy this country.

[kingkilburn]

Show where the tea party has made race an issue.

Meanwhile, the Occutards are the most vile, anti-Semitic racists out there that want to destroy this country.

Seriously?

boh92DrYEWs



http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/images/obama-witchdoctor-muck.jpg

http://mokellyreport.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/obamaafrican.jpg

http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/3444736449_a55b5c6067.jpg

http://www.onewhiteduck.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/teapartysign1sm.jpg

http://www.frugal-cafe.com/public_html/frugal-blog/frugal-cafe-blogzone/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/2010-tea-party-infiltrator-1.jpg



Not racist at all right?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_kHUrjDp0-Uk/TMBnLMADpxI/AAAAAAAAES8/bUJDfVf5XG0/s1600/negrofrowns.jpg

[kingkilburn]

I'll give you that some OWS things seem anti semitic but if you look at who controls the federal reserve and most of the major financial institutions AND look at the names they are putting on those signs you will see a nice correlation between the two.

Does that mean they are jew bashing? I don't think so. I haven't seen a single sign calling out jews in a negative way and certainly not in the fashion you would expect from a group being called anti semitic.



Do I find it peculiar that a rather specific group(those specific families that have controlled the banks for the last century) controls so much of our money and economy? Yes.

[RJF]

IMjm4LxFa1c



l3Y9CARUwio



xtgtnHLFCWU


http://vimeo.com/31652786


UEcXvy2I1yw

[kingkilburn]

Not acknowledging racism is just as bad as overt racism. :/

http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/entries/icons/original/000/002/135/sw50sw8sw578.gif?1293729577

[imotion s14]

Tea Party got co-opted to what is is now. Their goals are very much in line with the occupy movement as the OP's pic points out.
^ Seoul

They're not in line.

The difference is one group believes in "what is" and the other believes "what oughta be".

We know lobbyist seek to influence Washington for their monied interest.

So the question should be asked; WHY do lobbyiest want to influence government.

The OWS people believe government needs more power to resist the influence of corporations.

Take a step back and analyze that for a second.

Done?

So according to OWS; To reduce monied interest in politics, they propose to give MORE power to government? Because more power will allow them to better resist influence?

Does that even make any damn sense?

It's like claiming that someone who is a big spender will reduce spending once they win the lottery. More money only amplifies the problem of the spend happy person. Just like more government power will mean even MORE money will flow towards Washington.

[kingkilburn]

I think your interpretation of what OWS wants is a little off. . .

They want less power for corporations and lobbyists. That is not the same as more for government. I think every one can agree that more government is bad government.

[kingkilburn]

A constitutional amendment baring corporate personhood would invariably mean less government.

[RJF]

A constitutional amendment baring corporate personhood would invariably mean less government.


What does that mean?

How about a balanced budget amendment?

[imotion s14]

A constitutional amendment baring corporate personhood would invariably mean less government.

Or how about they make a law that reduces gravity so that fat people aren't as heavy.

[kingkilburn]

What do you think that means? It's not like that is a new concept.

A balanced budget amendment is meaningless. Just because the budget is balanced doesn't mean the spending has gone where it should. The budget is about who gets elected. Keep voting in idiots and keep getting the same results.


P.S.
I'm still waiting for a rebuttal on the racism in the tea party.

[kingkilburn]

Or how about they make a law that reduces gravity so that fat people aren't as heavy.

What does that have to do with anything?

[codyace]

Meanwhile, the Occutards are the most vile, anti-Semitic racists out there that want to destroy this country.

I really love how their own selfishness comes before anything else...it's irony of the first degree. They're the first to point fingers at the Gov't for being corrupt, but (to me) it seems as if they are just as guilty of it on their own level -- I especially love their criticism of government misspending, yet they are asking for debt forgiveness for their own lack of spending control. I also can't stand how they believe it's right to disrupt normal workflow in these cities, especially when they are preventing 'working' people from doing the right thing and or making their own cash.

As I say to me friends, until we can train people to not urinate all over the seat and floor in a public rest room, then we shouldn't be worried about overthrowing Washington.

[imotion s14]

What does that have to do with anything?

Let me put it this way.. how's the prohibition on certain classes of narcotics/stimulants/depressants working out?

[kingkilburn]

Let me put it this way.. how's the prohibition on certain classes of narcotics/stimulants/depressants working out?

It's not working at all.

That has nothing to do with corporations spending billions buying government and skewing the system in their favor.

[imotion s14]

It's not working at all.

That has nothing to do with corporations spending billions buying government and skewing the system in their favor.

Yet you think making laws will keep monied interest out of Washington. :rofl:

If there is power to be influenced, the money will find it's way there.

Talk about cognitive dissonance.

[kingkilburn]

It's no magic bullet but that would go a long way to making things better. As it stands now any company can spend any amount to get the guy they want elected.






Why is it that no one on Zilvia knows how to have a decent discussion or debate. It ALWAYS has to turn to mud slinging.

[Matej]

Meanwhile, the Occutards are the most vile, anti-Semitic racists out there that want to destroy this country.
Who are these Occutards? I like them already. I do not want my money going to Israel anymore.
Have you heard of Technion? Guess who funded it? America. Even though Jewish people only make up 1.7% of Americans, thanks to the huge influence they have in the US, billions of dollars are spent on pro-Jewish affairs and advancement around the world, even though these expenses are of absolutely no benefit to the average American.

[imotion s14]

It's no magic bullet but that would go a long way to making things better. As it stands now any company can spend any amount to get the guy they want elected.

Sure it will.

Just like hope and change in 2008. :wiggle:

[kingkilburn]

/\douche/\

[T chop]

Show where the tea party has made race an issue.

Meanwhile, the Occutards are the most vile, anti-Semitic racists out there that want to destroy this country.

If you can't see it for yourself, I doubt I can help you.

[RJF]

P.S.
I'm still waiting for a rebuttal on the racism in the tea party.

I could send you hundreds of pictures with no context. At least I presented videos with the words of the scumbags right there for you to hear.

[codyace]

As it stands now any company can spend any amount to get the guy they want elected.


You make this statement as if it's something new....'money' (regardless of where it comes from) has bought and influenced the seat since day one. In fact it would be tough to find a powerful society that hasn't had powerful funding.

[Walperstyle]

Who are these Occutards? I like them already. I do not want my money going to Israel anymore.
Have you heard of Technion? Guess who funded it? America. Even though Jewish people only make up 1.7% of Americans, thanks to the huge influence they have in the US, billions of dollars are spent on pro-Jewish affairs and advancement around the world, even though these expenses are of absolutely no benefit to the average American.

Hey, I found a picture of you
http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/23600000/Adolf-Hitler-villains-23623059-347-452.jpg

I'm just kidding, and I agree that far too much money leaves the US and never comes back.

[kingkilburn]

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/images/obama-witchdoctor-muck.jpg

http://mokellyreport.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/obamaafrican.jpg

http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/3444736449_a55b5c6067.jpg

http://www.onewhiteduck.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/teapartysign1sm.jpg

http://www.frugal-cafe.com/public_html/frugal-blog/frugal-cafe-blogzone/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/2010-tea-party-infiltrator-1.jpg





What kind of context do you want? It's all there for you to see.

You telling me witch doctor Obama isn't racist is entirely racist on your part and that's just one of the pictures.

Last I checked white people equating black people to monkeys was still racist as fuck.

Do I really need to explain each and every racist thing?




As for your videos. . . I see no problem with the first. She referring to a political interest not a faith or people.
The second video is just some angry jack ass yelling at the first guy he could think to blame.
The third video seems like more of the same.
The fourth video is a bunch of militant extreme liberals that DO NOT REPRESENT THE MAJORITY.

[kingkilburn]

You make this statement as if it's something new....'money' (regardless of where it comes from) has bought and influenced the seat since day one. In fact it would be tough to find a powerful society that hasn't had powerful funding.

The something new is that before it was illegal and now it's encouraged. A piece of property is a thing not a person and as such should have no first amendment rights.

[codyace]

The something new is that before it was illegal and now it's encouraged. A piece of property is a thing not a person and as such should have no first amendment rights.

You've said this before, and am curious as to your definition of what a piece of property is, as one of the points of a coorperation is that it can act as a human entity in it's business ways. It's one of the reasons why they can even exist in the first place, and have a board of trustees in place to make the final decisions....

[kingkilburn]

A group of individuals is not an individual. An entity owned by a group of individuals is not a person.

Why are corporations legally viewed as an individual? Because big business bought itself some law makers and made it so. Why would any one find it dubious that holding companies exist if a corporation is a person? Why can't one group with limited liability acting as a person own another group with limited liability acting as a person? Because that would be slavery and these things were always intended to be property not people.

[EDT007]

A group of individuals is not an individual. An entity owned by a group of individuals is not a person.

Why are corporations legally viewed as an individual? Because big business bought itself some law makers and made it so. Why would any one find it dubious that holding companies exist if a corporation is a person? Why can't one group with limited liability acting as a person own another group with limited liability acting as a person? Because that would be slavery and these things were always intended to be property not people.


I swear everytime i see that you post something I cringe a little. Did you go to college for politics and just re-verb the liberal trash you learned? Seriously...You remind me of the guy in Good Will Hunting (bar scene). Anyone can easily google political racist pics and say that they were from the Tea-Party movement. Here's a fact..Obama does have some haters..deal with it. People will be people and attack people based on anything including/but not limited to race. As for your definitions you're missing the point. What cody is saying is the "idea" of acting as one. The company's (solo, one entity) views/practices are generally thought of collectively (board). Get it? As for OWS, they're "fight" has no meaning. Half of the kids have never worked and are either in/or just got out of college and the other are mostly unemployed people. Before you start trying to tell me "facts", you can tell me that there are working people in there blah blah blah...because everyone can take off for weeks to go join a "movement" and still get paid by their job. It's been coming out that alot of these ppl are being PAID to be there which completely defeats the whole purpose.

[kingkilburn]

I didn't bring up the race thing RJF did.

Acting as an individual and being recognized by the supreme court as one are very different. At this point they are a legal person. The law recognizes no difference from me to you to Comcast LLC. That is wrong.

[RJF]

If you can defend the videos then I will make the same statement about your questionable pictures - "They do not represent the majority"

[kingkilburn]

I only defend the first one to a degree. The rest are idiots.

[imotion s14]

A group of individuals is not an individual. An entity owned by a group of individuals is not a person.

Why are corporations legally viewed as an individual? Because big business bought itself some law makers and made it so. Why would any one find it dubious that holding companies exist if a corporation is a person? Why can't one group with limited liability acting as a person own another group with limited liability acting as a person? Because that would be slavery and these things were always intended to be property not people.

:rofl:

They're not viewed as an individual, they're viewed as a legal persons where as individual is viewed as a natural persons.

A person under the law is an entity that has been granted legal responsibilities. Hence why animals don't have any legal responsibility and hence no legal rights.

Corporations have legal responsibilities hence why they can be SUED hence why they have certain legal rights.

Part of their legal responsibility is their fiduciary responsibility to make shareholders money.

Shareholders are people.

And people is NOT plural of person. The etymology of these words come from 2 distinct and different Greek words; populous and persona

Sheesh go read a law book and learn some English and proper use of language while you're at it.

[kingkilburn]

Why blame all Jews for a handful of greedy people that happen to be Jewish? It's not like the only people doing this stuff are Jewish.

[RJF]

Why blame all Jews for a handful of greedy people that happen to be Jewish? It's not like the only people doing this stuff are Jewish.

RACIST!

:picardfp:

[kingkilburn]

Are you all there in the head? Seriously?

You turn a blind eye and make excuses for people you agree with and them call me racist when I disagree with their bashing of Jews.

[RJF]

Are you all there in the head? Seriously?

You turn a blind eye and make excuses for people you agree with and them call me racist when I disagree with their bashing of Jews.

Because you made a racist statement by saying that a handful of greedy people are Jewish.

[kingkilburn]

"a handful of greedy people that happen to be Jewish" is not a racist statement.

[codyace]

Acting as an individual and being recognized by the supreme court as one are very different. At this point they are a legal person. The law recognizes no difference from me to you to Comcast LLC. That is wrong.

As mentioned by imotion s14, I think your lack of formal education in the matter (and over zealousness to believe whatever rags you read online regardless of their sourcing or founding), often sets you up for failure when talking about this stuff -- especially when it comes to business law and classification, as the stuff you can't seem to understand is all 100 level classing.

By your statements, you're saying that we shouldn't respect companies as a legal person(s) in regard to any of their rights or ours? Why is that...should we treat them with less legality or more? Who's to say the people in charge of watching them are any more or less corrupt then those they are watching (catch 22 situation for sure)?? As before big 'influence' has been a part of every single ny major civilization or world power throughout history...screaming foul on them now without accepting that is how it's always been is just silly if you ask me.


And to answer your question of why Zilvia can't have a normal debate: It will never happen when we have Wikipedia Warriors, Blog Barrons, arguing about concepts that are easily answered by entry level collegiate classes. I'm not specifically saying you in this case, but to answer your question in general.

As the old example goes, if you teach a Caveman that a Toaster is Really called a Spark Machine, and all he knows is that if you put metal in it and it sparks he'll believe you...until you show him it's meant to cook and reheat food. The caveman's case he really isn't 'wrong' as it's what he was taught and all he knows...however to the rest of the trained world he's very wrong....but in reality he is. The same can be said about those who hang off random blog writers and youtube videos, without really knowing what they are watching or reading beyond what they've seen in those same videos.

"a handful of greedy people that happen to be Jewish" is not a racist statement.

The point he's asking you is why even put in the 'jewish' description in your point? Could you not have just said 'a handful of greedy people'?

[kingkilburn]

That is exactly my point. It's dumb to try and bring race into it because SOME of them HAPPEN to be Jewish.

I get that there is a distinction between legal and natural personhood. That distinction has been blurred as of late with natural peoples' rights getting squashed for legal peoples' rights. Defending corporations spending millions on campaign funding with free speech is a joke. There is a reason that was regulated but it would seem now the person, be they legal or natural, with the deepest pockets runs the country.

[mantas]

I love the United States of America. I also love capitalism. What I don't love is greed. Our justice system is not serving justice the same to everyone.

Give me a break! Life is not fair! I want to ask your parents why they never taught you that....

[RJF]

"a handful of greedy people that happen to be Jewish" is not a racist statement.

Keep telling yourself that

[codyace]

I get that there is a distinction between legal and natural personhood. That distinction has been blurred as of late with natural peoples' rights getting squashed for legal peoples' rights.

How so? Again, this has ALWAYS been the case...it's alway been the legal entity representing a company, not any person. How else could even (fairly at least) represent companies? You have to assign some sort of legal 'person(s)' to stand in place of them....it's only fair.

And I don't think people's rights are being squashed at all. Look at every single one of our previous presidents...look who their biggest supporters and financial backers are: Big business. Agian, I can not for one second believe that you honestly do not recognize that point. Fair or unfair, big money brings exposure, which create votes. I don't care if Mother Theresa was running...if she had no previous exposure, and no financial backers...then she'd NEVER ever win anything. Get over the allusion that everyone is equal.


Defending corporations spending millions on campaign funding with free speech is a joke. There is a reason that was regulated but it would seem now the person, be they legal or natural, with the deepest pockets runs the country.

I really don't see your point with this at all. It is free speech. I don't see why you're willing to 'fight for whats right' yet want to restrict parties you don't agree with...it's contradictory at best.

Scenario: Lets say CEO X from Company Y decides to put all his cash towards a candidate....should he not be allowed to do so?

[Walperstyle]

Because you made a racist statement by saying that a handful of greedy people are Jewish.

you are not helping the thread by confusing people, lol

[RJF]

Defending corporations spending millions on campaign funding with free speech is a joke. There is a reason that was regulated but it would seem now the person, be they legal or natural, with the deepest pockets runs the country.

How are corporations different than unions, who steal money from their members, and pump millions into the Democrat party?

If corporations cannot use their money as they wish, why should unions be allowed to take their members dues and do the same thing.

[cdlong]

Scenario: Lets say CEO X from Company Y decides to put all his cash towards a candidate....should he not be allowed to do so?

No. Because there are contribution limits.

Corporations however... (I really don't know, feel free to explain what they can do). If GE was limited to donating $2500 to a candidate, I think most people wouldn't care.

[kingkilburn]

Unions vote on how the dues are to be spent. Don't like it don't join. Don't think you fool anyone phrasing it the way you did.

[Walperstyle]

Unions vote on how the dues are to be spent. Don't like it don't join. Don't think you fool anyone phrasing it the way you did.

Corporations are no different then unions at all. They are both in it for money.


also how exactly do you work at a job that requires you to be a Union member. The unions are a huge problem toward corporations that are trying to make money. General Motors can't turn a profit like they use to because of Union members sucking profits dry via a BS pension plan and benefits that should have never happened. To make matters worse, something like 20% of GM's shareholder is the Union. That is unnecessary Leverage.

As for Union Vote; I don't know about you, but usually the 'members' don't get to vote, its the Union Representatives. Usually the Reps are the ones that look out for themselves before you and I. Thats how it was in every Union Job I was in.


Corporations however... (I really don't know, feel free to explain what they can do). If GE was limited to donating $2500 to a candidate, I think most people wouldn't care.

To a corporation, and avoid being taxed, they contribute money to Non Profit organizations. In some situations, these non-profit organizations are funds to help advertise for political leaders. Is it right or wrong? maybe.

Would you rather pay a bunch of tax money to the government thats in power that you dont like, or to a non-profit to help advertise to get the one you do like? Thats what its about.

Its a 50/50 split across the US on where they want money going.

Fortunately a few good Corporations are out there that donate to charity and actual good things like women shelters and such. Or senior centers like where my wife works.

[kingkilburn]

The corruption and co opting of the unions is another issue and I'm with you on most of that.

Being forced into a union is bogus.

[mantas]

Corporations are no different then unions at all. They are both in it for money.


also how exactly do you work at a job that requires you to be a Union member. The unions are a huge problem toward corporations that are trying to make money. General Motors can't turn a profit like they use to because of Union members sucking profits dry via a BS pension plan and benefits that should have never happened. To make matters worse, something like 20% of GM's shareholder is the Union. That is unnecessary Leverage.

As for Union Vote; I don't know about you, but usually the 'members' don't get to vote, its the Union Representatives. Usually the Reps are the ones that look out for themselves before you and I. Thats how it was in every Union Job I was in.



To a corporation, and avoid being taxed, they contribute money to Non Profit organizations. In some situations, these non-profit organizations are funds to help advertise for political leaders. Is it right or wrong? maybe.

Would you rather pay a bunch of tax money to the government thats in power that you dont like, or to a non-profit to help advertise to get the one you do like? Thats what its about.

Its a 50/50 split across the US on where they want money going.

Fortunately a few good Corporations are out there that donate to charity and actual good things like women shelters and such. Or senior centers like where my wife works.

Do some research on charitable contributions and how much the receiving institution uses for overhead costs -, you will be surprised. I don't feel like doing the legwork for you, and I do not recall the exact figures so I won't make something up, but... for each dollar donated only a few cents end up going to the "needy" (like the bitches at OWS). This is true for most NOT for profit and NON profit organizations. Big f-ing scam! Same goes for money pissed away to other parts of the world. Half is spent by our government to get the money or goods there - the other half pissed away by the receiving nations government. LMAO

[codyace]

No. Because there are contribution limits.

Corporations however... (I really don't know, feel free to explain what they can do). If GE was limited to donating $2500 to a candidate, I think most people wouldn't care.


Who's to say they donate it direct to the campaign though? That's my point. if Jonny CEO wants to 'donate' whatever to a supposed canidates 'charity'...then that saves the candidate the investment, which they can dump wherever.

I don't read too closely to limits...when it's so easy to appoint/account for the cash elsewhere.

Unions vote on how the dues are to be spent. Don't like it don't join. Don't think you fool anyone phrasing it the way you did.

You say that in a very generic sense. You don't like the union and don't join...often times in pro-union places that means you don't have a job.

Unions are as much a 'business' as the companies that employ them.

[Walperstyle]

Do some research on charitable contributions and how much the receiving institution uses for overhead costs -, you will be surprised. I don't feel like doing the legwork for you, and I do not recall the exact figures so I won't make something up, but... for each dollar donated only a few cents end up going to the "needy" (like the bitches at OWS). This is true for most NOT for profit and NON profit organizations. Big f-ing scam! Same goes for money pissed away to other parts of the world. Half is spent by our government to get the money or goods there - the other half pissed away by the receiving nations government. LMAO

I understand what you are saying, kind of. Stay on topic.

[Walperstyle]

I want many of you to realize that there is a handful of professional protestors, also with corporate sponsorship in all of these cities too. So as much as you want to hate how money is being sent to bogus non-profit organizations, so is such with many of these protestors.

[kingkilburn]

You say that in a very generic sense. You don't like the union and don't join...often times in pro-union places that means you don't have a job.

Unions are as much a 'business' as the companies that employ them.

When it's in the governments best interest(unionized state/federal workers with the union controlled by government) for unions to be strong you bet they will be strong. When it stops being a voluntary thing it's gone to far. When your representation from you to your employer IS your employer the system is flawed.

[harrypotter]

Not sure if this is already posted in this thread, don't like reading BS so I just skimmed it. Found this while looking at the reasons zombies would not survive!


5 Ways We Ruined the Occupy Wall Street Generation | Cracked.com (http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-ways-we-ruined-occupy-wall-street-generation/?wa_user1=2&wa_user2=Weird+World&wa_user3=blog&wa_user4=feature_module)

[mantas]

Not sure if this is already posted in this thread, don't like reading BS so I just skimmed it. Found this while looking at the reasons zombies would not survive!


5 Ways We Ruined the Occupy Wall Street Generation | Cracked.com (http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-ways-we-ruined-occupy-wall-street-generation/?wa_user1=2&wa_user2=Weird+World&wa_user3=blog&wa_user4=feature_module)

Good article, conclusions is epic! "Grow up or, be poor and cry me a river that your parents screwed up".

[kingkilburn]

I figured it out.

Republicans "stealing" your money(taxes) and spending it on your behalf(giving subsidies to the most profitable industry in the history of man, oil). Good.

Democrats "stealing" your money(taxes) and spending it on your behalf(NPR, public health/welfare, subsidizing artists, EPA). Bad.

Unions "stealing" it's members money(union dues) ans spending it on their behalf. Very bad.

Corporations/financial institutions getting tax breaks and subsidies and spending it on more tax breaks and subsidies. Very good.

[RJF]

It’s kind of sad when you show up to a protest and the people that you’re trying to intimidate have better and louder chants.

7qwD-vHGtqk

"We want the dog!" Occupy Denver elected a dog to run their movement.

[codyace]

When it's in the governments best interest(unionized state/federal workers with the union controlled by government) for unions to be strong you bet they will be strong. When it stops being a voluntary thing it's gone to far. When your representation from you to your employer IS your employer the system is flawed.

I don't get you point here at all. I work with this shit daily. Union shops are just as corrupt as the businesses you claim are the reason for them being the way they are.

There will never be 'order' or fairness in a situation where a strong chain of command is circumvented in place of strong representation.

So you really mean...
I figured it out.

-Republicans "stealing" your money(taxes) is bad, and always corrupt...but when it's used on your behalf it is 'ok' as 'you deseve it'

-Democrats "stealing" your money (taxes) is good, and never corrupt, as it's going to nonsensical things like abstract art presentations, as it 'broadens the masses minds'

-Unions "stealing" it's members money(union dues) and spending it in the name of the union (although you really have no clue where it's spent or used for, often times lobbying) is ok, as I'm part of the team!

-Corporations/financial institutions getting tax breaks and subsidies and spending it on growing the business and employing mere (which forces them to pay more taxes) is bad.

:D

To me, the Occutard's biggest issue is that they refuse to accept accountability on their own behalf. Half of what they are pointing fingers at for being 'corrupt' they are just as guilty of themselves.

[Walperstyle]

All protestors and people angry at 'wall street' should read these books.

Explains in great detail how the demographic changes and what will change with it
http://www.aef.com/images/book_covers/age_curve_lg.jpg

also these from Robert Kiyosaki whom was a kid with ambition
https://www.richdadcoaching.com/assets/images/robert_rich_dad_book.jpg
http://i3.squidoocdn.com/resize/squidoo_images/-1/lens17655627_1298048665Cash-Flow-Quadrant.jpeg
He also wrote a book about how the economy was going to crash before it actually did
http://www.audioeditions.com/audio-book-images/l/Rich-Dads-Prophecy-312448.jpg

automatic millionaire
http://img.amazon.ca/images/I/51JT7FVDYDL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU15_.jpg

These are just some books I read when I probably should be been going to college. Either way, I have a 5 bedroom house, and yes, I worked hard for it, but I also realize how to turn bad situations around into good ones. It helps to understand tax laws, and how to create passive income without advice from bankers.

reason: Bankers protect the bank, and try to get you to 'diversify'. I daily traded GM and Ford shares in 2008 and 2009. Gaining (and loosing at times) upwards of 800%. No bank will give you that return.

Now is actually the best time to profit on the market, because people are confused. Fear allows the little guy to buy in low before companies rebound.

Also helps to learn to use OPM (other peoples money) aka, Banks, renters, etc. Got a business idea, get someone else to pay to set it up. Thats what I'm doing right now.

[RJF]

To me, the Occutard's biggest issue is that they refuse to accept accountability on their own behalf. Half of what they are pointing fingers at for being 'corrupt' they are just as guilty of themselves.

Amen.

That's not just the problem with the Occutards, but the problem with many in this country. They've got their hand out and are expecting someone else to give them what they want.

JFK said it best: "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country"

Whatever happened to self-reliance and personal responsibility? Government, especially the Progressives want people so reliant on the government that the government has the ultimate power and control over every aspect, the Founding Fathers didn't want a powerful government, but that's what we've got now.

[TheWolf]

Whatever happened to self-reliance and personal responsibility? Government, especially the Progressives want people so reliant on the government that the government has the ultimate power and control over every aspect, the Founding Fathers didn't want a powerful government, but that's what we've got now.

I prefer the phrase "contrary to what you've been told, no one owes you anything".

If you haven't noticed, this "indoctrination" has become part of the gov't marketing plan that starts in college. The fafsa forms, going to "One Stop" for financial aid, etc. Then when you need unemployment and food stamps? Oh you goto "One Stop". Wow it looks just like the one on campus. It's designed to reduce the stigma associated with taking gov't assistance. The problem is that there is no stigma anymore. There's a belief that regardless of any economic issue. The Gov't will always be around to provide benefits and a whole social class has built it's existence around just existing for free.

A more prophetic quote would be.

"when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors—when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don’t protect you against them, but protect them against you—when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice—you may know that your society is doomed.”-Ayn Rand

As far out as people seem, there is no turning back though. When confronted with an enemy, there are only 3 things that you can do.

Attack
Compromise
Retreat

The tea party and the OWS party are not about compromise and I truly believe that if you look at our political system, compromise is gone. Attacking or retreating are the only two options left and that polarization is present in all of america. There is an all or none end game that is being played for what remains of american tax dollars. Define the middle of the road and you get nothing anymore. You can't have low taxes, great social programs, a balanced budget and happiness for all. Something must give and the country has reached a fork in the road; there are only two directions it can go in. At this point, you've got the path towards socialism. Higher taxes, more money spent, and greater "economic justice". The other direction is towards limited gov't, no nation building and fend for yourself.

Politicians want both because they enjoy spending other peoples money for their own end but that is over. America doesn't just need a balanced budget amendment, they need a way to lower the national debt. This whole debt "super committee" is a stall tactic. Instead of shooting a BB gun at the freight train of debt, they're going to use a .22lr. "At least 4x the power of the previous try, definitely going to work". Neither side is going to implement sound fiscal change unless it's at the end of a gun barrel. Both sides have gone so far as to manipulate financial markets to further their own reckless spending. Ponzi schemes, trick accountings, realizing savings now for things that will be 10 years off, even trying to incorporate "interest payment reduction" as part of "savings".

There's no way to fix entitlement thinking though. You can either feed them, or let them starve. Continue giving handouts, free food, free gas, free rent, free income tax, free health care, etc. That population will continue to demand free something else next week. They will never continue to be responsible and they will never value something that's free. So you can either feed them, let them starve, or kill them. There's no compromising with that. That's the choice that faces america, and politicians will tap dance around it until there is no other choice.

[mantas]

All protestors and people angry at 'wall street' should read these books.

Explains in great detail how the demographic changes and what will change with it
http://www.aef.com/images/book_covers/age_curve_lg.jpg

also these from Robert Kiyosaki whom was a kid with ambition
https://www.richdadcoaching.com/assets/images/robert_rich_dad_book.jpg
http://i3.squidoocdn.com/resize/squidoo_images/-1/lens17655627_1298048665Cash-Flow-Quadrant.jpeg
He also wrote a book about how the economy was going to crash before it actually did
http://www.audioeditions.com/audio-book-images/l/Rich-Dads-Prophecy-312448.jpg

automatic millionaire
http://img.amazon.ca/images/I/51JT7FVDYDL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU15_.jpg

These are just some books I read when I probably should be been going to college. Either way, I have a 5 bedroom house, and yes, I worked hard for it, but I also realize how to turn bad situations around into good ones. It helps to understand tax laws, and how to create passive income without advice from bankers.

reason: Bankers protect the bank, and try to get you to 'diversify'. I daily traded GM and Ford shares in 2008 and 2009. Gaining (and loosing at times) upwards of 800%. No bank will give you that return.

Now is actually the best time to profit on the market, because people are confused. Fear allows the little guy to buy in low before companies rebound.

Also helps to learn to use OPM (other peoples money) aka, Banks, renters, etc. Got a business idea, get someone else to pay to set it up. Thats what I'm doing right now.

Only read rich dad poor dad from your list, but have read others by kiyo. And it was as if i was reading my own words, im a true believer in working hard and keeping your money to yourself. Only absolute idiots use their own money to fund a business. Find a sucker that will pay for it!

You my friend missed one big key point - a house is not an asset its a liability. But im really glad you made those books work to your advantage!! And although you got a house first instead of starting a business you made it happen.

On the other hand, i missed the train with gm and ford, i gave advise to a friend and now he has a house and i just sat back and watched him make trades, what a shame! Add to friends and remember these zilvians hame no edu,acation so you cant beat an ounce of sense into them, i try constantly...lol

[Walperstyle]

"a house is not an asset its a liability"
It all depends on location, and how its being paid off. I forgot to mention I had renters covering some of my mortgage, and an exchange student for the last year has brought in $600/mo too.

Best advice for anyone in the stock market is to look for Fear Mongers. Back during the 'crash' I purposely looked at huge companies like Ford and GM that were not going to go away. You buy when the stock is sitting at an all time low. ...let the fear mongers loose money while you gain 100%+ in a very short time when it 'bounces'. I did the same with Nortel Networks back a few years ago too. Purchased at 79 cents, sold at $3 before they finally went under.

Play on fear, as well as researching good technology before its released to the world. Another big one for me was XM and Sirius satellite radio way before they had TV commercials. Also stay connected to technology and where the world is going. Go to ted.com and find out what scientists and smart people are talking about.

Also, Look for opportunity during disasters, natural or man made to profit.

Then, once you have made it, give some of that money back to less fortunate. I have not made it yet, but I sponsor two kids overseas. Two families technically get to eat and go to school.

[mantas]

"a house is not an asset its a liability"
It all depends on location, and how its being paid off. I forgot to mention I had renters covering some of my mortgage, and an exchange student for the last year has brought in $600/mo too.

Best advice for anyone in the stock market is to look for Fear Mongers. Back during the 'crash' I purposely looked at huge companies like Ford and GM that were not going to go away. You buy when the stock is sitting at an all time low. ...let the fear mongers loose money while you gain 100%+ in a very short time when it 'bounces'. I did the same with Nortel Networks back a few years ago too. Purchased at 79 cents, sold at $3 before they finally went under.

Play on fear, as well as researching good technology before its released to the world. Another big one for me was XM and Sirius satellite radio way before they had TV commercials. Also stay connected to technology and where the world is going. Go to ted.com and find out what scientists and smart people are talking about.

Also, Look for opportunity during disasters, natural or man made to profit.

Then, once you have made it, give some of that money back to less fortunate. I have not made it yet, but I sponsor two kids overseas. Two families technically get to eat and go to school.

Absolutely nothing wrong with buying a home, but I would rather have a steady income from an investment first than a cash outlay and a big debt tied to my name - even if some of the mortgage is covered by renters.

From your track record you know exactly what you are doing so no point in discussing that, and you are an example of people like myself. When we do make money we give it back, I do donate in small amounts to AIDS foundations Cancer etc, but only after I do my homework as I do not trust most of these bullshit organizations. On the other hand I do get a tax write-off. HAHA.

Keep it going, and do you trade stocks only? I did a lot of options trading but got greedy and eventually started back at square one.

[Matej]

http://wondermark.com/c/2011-06-10-731fight.gif

[Walperstyle]

Well, I talked to some protestors today. Got them angry.

I simply said 'instead of being against something, how about you get creative and make change'.... I love street trolling.

The next generation of successful people can take advantage right now if they get a little creative. You can be successful and do good in society.

TED: Ideas worth spreading (http://www.ted.com)

[Walperstyle]

JFK said it best: "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country"


Exactly. Every person in the US has the ability to hit the stars if they spent the time to learn laws and how the 'big guys' do it. Now's the time to make the change. It starts with the individual, not the government.

[kingkilburn]

The government has to be willing to play ball too.

[codyace]

Exactly. Every person in the US has the ability to hit the stars if they spent the time to learn laws and how the 'big guys' do it. Now's the time to make the change. It starts with the individual, not the government.

Well said. If half these protesters spent the same energy bettering themselves, they'd outdoubtedly be better off. However those in rough times often resort to pointing fingers instead of adapting. Shame that there is an ever-growing number of those who accept failure and would rather change the rules, instead of abiding and overcoming.

[codyace]

The government has to be willing to play ball too.

True, but they shouldn't bend overbackwards to help out the helpless.

[kingkilburn]

They equally shouldn't bend over for big business and banks.

All I ask for is a level playing field and a fair crack the success I have worked for.

[codyace]

They equally shouldn't bend over for big business and banks.

All I ask for is a level playing field and a fair crack the success I have worked for.

I agree. Kinda like how I wish I wasn't forced to pay unemployment on my derelict workers...and that they should float their own bill etc etc. Trust me, businesses are legally forced to 'suck it' in many cases as well (well at least the ones who abide by employment laws...1099 fly by night places need not apply here) here...I guess being a small business owner, I get fucked the most as we get shafted from big brother, get shafted by crappy employees who cost us in the end, etc etc.

[Carbomb]

I agree. Kinda like how I wish I wasn't forced to pay unemployment on my derelict workers...and that they should float their own bill etc etc. Trust me, businesses are legally forced to 'suck it' in many cases as well (well at least the ones who abide by employment laws...1099 fly by night places need not apply here) here...I guess being a small business owner, I get fucked the most as we get shafted from big brother, get shafted by crappy employees who cost us in the end, etc etc.

^ gotta play the game...
if you dont they will play you

[codyace]

^ gotta play the game...
if you dont they will play you

I know the game -- I just often like to remind those who immediately paint the picture of businesses running amok with their tax breaks and help, that they also get their own fair share of a 'screwing' as well. Trust me when I say the amount of money we could save from these employee safety nets is a strong amount.

[RJF]

Wall Street Heroes

http://thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/get-a-job-e1321544904585.jpg

[revcyanide]

the amount of stupidity in this thread from both sides is astounding.



This is why nothing will ever change in this country, politics have become extreme left, or extreme right. Absolutely no compromise.

Tea party has some great ideas, and some fucking dumb as shit ones. Wanting a government shutdown during a recession is a sure fire way to shoot us headfirst into a depression.
OWS has a GREAT message, and things that really need to change, I don't care where you aligning yourself politically. However they do not convery it well, and has attracted a LOT of idiots who have no idea what this was originally about, and are protesting war, and captillism, and anything they can come with that they think is bad.



What this country needs, is bipartisan-ship again. we need politicians who can agree on things, Who can actually work out a damn budget, who can agree to cut spending AND increase revenue through taxes (our taxes are the lowest they have been in 50+ years.)

And in order for THAT to happen, we need civilians who can see the value in other people ideas, not calling people anti Semites and racist. It is easy to pick out the bottom of the barrel people from the someone with opposing views as yourself, but to understand their views and see where some of them might be good, that deserves true respect.

[mantas]

Wall Street Heroes

http://thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/get-a-job-e1321544904585.jpg

WINNING!!!

MOD close this thread, we have reached a verdict. HAHAHA

[imotion s14]

the amount of stupidity in this thread from both sides is astounding.

This is why nothing will ever change in this country, politics have become extreme left, or extreme right. Absolutely no compromise.

You think the Founders started a war to fight for compromise?

If anything there is too much compromise. Too much bi-partisanship. They put on a dog and pony show to show that they're different on issues that really doesn't even matter. But on important issues they're all on the same page.

Like the Democrats are all against the war but vote to fund it every time because when a vote comes up they compromise. Vice versa with the Republicans.

Tea party has some great ideas, and some fucking dumb as shit ones. Wanting a government shutdown during a recession is a sure fire way to shoot us headfirst into a depression.

They need to be shut down. Government needs to get the hell out of the way and let the markets handle it. All they're doing is squandering what little resources we have left.

[T chop]

What this country needs, is bipartisan-ship again. we need politicians who can agree on things, Who can actually work out a damn budget, who can agree to cut spending AND increase revenue through taxes (our taxes are the lowest they have been in 50+ years.)


It will never happen with the two party system though. In Canada it sometimes happens only because there is usually 3-4 parties with a decent amount of seats, although now there is really only 3 decent parties.

[kingkilburn]

It will never happen when the people in DC refuse to REPRESENT THEIR CONSTITUENCIES.

Here in the central valley we need water but the representatives from here continually vote to keep the water away. The most fertile land in the world is left barren and our water is sent to LA and the dams are never allowed to fill to capacity.

[mantas]

It will never happen when the people in DC refuse to REPRESENT THEIR CONSTITUENCIES.

Here in the central valley we need water but the representatives from here continually vote to keep the water away. The most fertile land in the world is left barren and our water is sent to LA and the dams are never allowed to fill to capacity.

That's not right. Definitely not right, because I see a-holes wasting water left and right in LA, and your crops go to waste because some idiots here can't shut off the faucets or the garden hoses. The bums that patrol my neighborhood have left my garden hose on 3 times and it has flooded half a city block (not exaggerating), the whole alley was flooded for about 2 blocks. Yet my idiot neighbors can't turn it off.

There are two solutions to fix D.C. one is to hang them all, and re-elect, or stop lobbying and they would leave at will.

[inopsey]

Wall Street Heroes

http://thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/get-a-job-e1321544904585.jpg

what a bunch of bs. a lot of the reasoning behind the occupy mindset (original) is there are hundreds of thousands of university educated people (and i dont mean arts degrees or other paper hat majors) unemployed. there are no desks to occupy because there are no jobs...........

[codyace]

""After two solid months of keeping my mouth shut, I just have to say something. To all of you who are involved in the various "Occupy" movements or who are supportive of said groups: Please. Stop. Now. I've seen pictures of these people and am embarrassed that most of them appear to be my age. I am sad that my generation will forever be labeled as "Generation Entitlement" and that my peers are so incredibly ignorant that they will latch on to any cause without a rational explanation for what it actually stands for.

I get it, capitalism ultimately results in a very rich few, a very poor few, and a huge majority of people who fall somewhere in between. Yet, when I read the "objectives" of this wannabe revolution, it sounds to me like you people are clamoring for a socialist culture and quoting Marx and Lenin along the way. Let's ask every single country who has ever attempted that how well it turns out?

I have never, in my entire life, had trouble finding a job and here's why: I have a good work ethic, I have the ability to socially interact with other humans, and I hold myself to a higher standard. Get off the streets and make something of yourselves. What do you possibly think your meager little protests are going to accomplish? I smile a little bit every time I see a picture of some 26-year-old "adult" who never grew up after college being dragged across the pavement by his backpack.

You are not going to bring about change by waving your lighters in the air and blocking the path for productive members of society to get to work, you're only going to get a face full of teargas in the end. Rationalize your thoughts, change your own life, and don't get swept up in the ignorant masses around you. You're so busy trying to work up a solution, when the fact of the matter is that you ARE the problem."


One of my friends had wrote this, thought it was fitting.





what a bunch of bs. a lot of the reasoning behind the occupy mindset (original) is there are hundreds of thousands of university educated people (and i dont mean arts degrees or other paper hat majors) unemployed. there are no desks to occupy because there are no jobs...........

While true, there are still countless jobs out there...problem is many graduates feel 'too good' to work them (even if temporary). The numbers of unemployment vs UNDERemployment are staggering...as in, there are capable workers out there, and jobs out there, but for some reason they are not filled.

[BustedS13]

If anything there is too much compromise. Too much bi-partisanship.

you clearly haven't been paying attention for the past several years.

...and when the country is split 50/50 on pretty much any topic under the sun, how is compromise a bad thing?

[revcyanide]

They need to be shut down. Government needs to get the hell out of the way and let the markets handle it. All they're doing is squandering what little resources we have left.

You really have 0 idea about how economics work do you?

A government shutdown in a recession is fucking STUPID.
I don't think you understand what a fucking government shutdown means like all the other tea party idiots. "TOO MUCH GOVERNMENT INVOLVEMENT ARGGGG GET RID OF EVERYTHING!!"


Heres how this scenario plays out.

Government shuts down.

Government employees do not get paid for however long it is shut down, probably would be one whole paycheck.
lots of government employees live pay-check to paycheck, like my parents for example. They save where they can but for some people it is not possible.

Now they cannot pay their bills. Now the us in the military do not get paid for our jobs while the idiots in congress make 250K debating over funding planned parenthood.


THEN GUESS WHAT HAPPENS?

we all still worked all that time, We all still get paid, once the gov starts back up, that money goes right back out, except now, it is the money we are owed + our next paycheck. Yup right after a government shutdown, to hand out that much money would turn out GREAT! especially if it stayed shut don't for a very extended period (a month) However unlikely, this situation would CRIPPLE our current fragile economy.



i agree some of the OWS protesters are idiots, but for every one of them, there is an idiot in the tea party who thinks a government shut down during a recession is a great idea.



It's also REALLY easy for people in small business or working in the corporate world to want to shut it down, if you actually work for the gov, you'd see how much this affects people, congress still gets paid, the pres still gets paid, NOTHING changes, you only hurt the people who work hard for a paycheck.

*edit, on top of this, i have friends overseas, supporting families here, in a war-zone. a government shutdown means the could not get paid.
if you think that is a great idea, fuck you.

[revcyanide]

you clearly haven't been paying attention for the past several years.

...and when the country is split 50/50 on pretty much any topic under the sun, how is compromise a bad thing?

especially when we cant even make a fucking budget because we are too busy arguing about abortion.

[Carbomb]

Stop it b: Felonious Munk performs Pay Your Bills (Live) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt5cq_T7x6U&feature=feedbul)

[RJF]

Get your facts straight....the Tea Party doesn't want a Government shutdown, they want smaller government and the government to get out of every aspect of our lives.

Here's another example of government trying to control every aspect of our lives:

Last week, the California congresswoman Pelosi hit five cities in five days, barnstorming for money to try to win the 25 more seats it would take to regain control. And if that happens — or when, according to her — at the top of her to-do list, she says, will be “doing for child care what we did for health-care reform” — pushing comprehensive change.

Can you imagine children being brain-washed under PelosiCare?

[kingkilburn]

especially when we cant even make a fucking budget because we are too busy arguing about abortion.

They talk about abortion to push off talking about shit that matters. It get's the idiot masses all up in arms and they get to act like the heroes of morality and Christendom.

[revcyanide]

Get your facts straight....the Tea Party doesn't want a Government shutdown, they want smaller government and the government to get out of every aspect of our lives.

Here's another example of government trying to control every aspect of our lives:

Last week, the California congresswoman Pelosi hit five cities in five days, barnstorming for money to try to win the 25 more seats it would take to regain control. And if that happens — or when, according to her — at the top of her to-do list, she says, will be “doing for child care what we did for health-care reform” — pushing comprehensive change.

Can you imagine children being brain-washed under PelosiCare?
During the government shutdown scare i recall tea party activists chanting "shut er down"



If every tea party member is going to believe the way the media portrays OWS, I am gonna go ahead and believe how the media portrays the tea party.

[imotion s14]

you clearly haven't been paying attention for the past several years.

...and when the country is split 50/50 on pretty much any topic under the sun, how is compromise a bad thing?

I been paying attention to real issues.

[TheWolf]

You really have 0 idea about how economics work do you?


*edit, on top of this, i have friends overseas, supporting families here, in a war-zone. a government shutdown means the could not get paid.
if you think that is a great idea, fuck you.

I think it's the best idea to shut it down. If it means that troops don't get paid, good. If it means that your parents living paycheck to paycheck, can't pay their bills, even better. I think it's exactly what the country needs. It's the true result of failed policies for years. "Bankruptcy happens slowly and then all at once." Getting a bounced check in the mail from their employer is the true sign that endless spending is a failed plan. It would make them realize how insecure their job really is, and how broke uncle sam is. No soldier wants to go without pay but there's no point in defending america's "interests" abroad if america is crumbling at home. Lets face it, if there's no battles to fight, there's no reason to keep that soldier employed either.

Lets look at what lead up to this "shutdown" and what has been fixed since then.

The shutdown brought to the forefront of how perilous the endless gov't borrowing will become. So congress made a deal. We're going to reign in spending, create a super committee, vote on their proposal or accept drastic cuts, vote of a balanced budget ammendment and promise to be more fiscally responsible in exchange for a debt ceiling increase.

What did we get for that increase?

Reign in spending? Another 1.2 Trillion in debt, most of that increase is already spent and unless the revenues start rolling it, god forbid they may have to revisit the issue before an election because they're blowing it so fast. The Senate still has not brought forth a budget after 3 years. That's pretty much just a given. No longer will any democratic senator put their name on any document that says we are financially on a good course and here's our plan. The worlds largest country need a budget??? Bah. We're to good at borrowing money to need one of those. Mark my words, this january, you'll start seeing the IRS "rationing" out tax returns, aka stalling so they can keep as much interest as possible off of them.

The super committee. 6 and 6. After 3 months of time, they're trying to wrap up a set of ideas onto some paper like a grade school kid writing his book report the night before it's due. This is the united states of america. not some college flunky experiment. Dragging some shit together right before it's due in hopes that it will fly is inexcusable. What kind of example does that set? Would any business or industry tolerate that level of incompetence or lack of drive?

The trigger. When this shit laden super committee drags up some POS document that promises fake savings and unrealistic job growth to "save" money, these across the board cuts will kick in to make savings. Well not really, both sides have said that they will "unlegislate" the trigger that was part of the debt ceiling deal because neither side wants the trigger.

Balanced budget amendment. No vote yet, no scheduled vote yet, avoiding it like the plague again.

Fiscally responsible? They got the money, blew it in record time, have nothing to show for it, and are on their way to ask for more.

What are they going to do next time the debt ceiling is reached? Promise us this time with sugar on top that they're going to be good? It's like a drug addict hitting you up for money to buy more drugs and promising to pay you "next time". Eventually you're just going to have to say NO. By saying NO MORE, SHUT IT DOWN. We are essentially forcing the gov't to make the hard decisions. It either needs to say. Listen we need 40% more taxes from everyone to keep this level of spending or we've got to cut spending by 40% because we're out of control. Yes, they may decide that your parents aren't important to the federal government's function. They may decide that we don't need 120,000 soldiers in Afghanistan but at some point those decisions MUST be made. You can't keep putting it off because it's politically unpopular. It's like the dog shit in the living room, and everyone just ignores it because they don't want to clean it up. It's not glamorous, but it must be done or the whole place begins to smell like shit.

If you think, on the next debt ceiling increase, people are just going to roll over and agree again then you're wrong. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. It's not going to happen again.

I god honestly would hate to have to face people in my district and say "Listen, I know we had to back down school days from 5 to 4, cut teachers, and defund your kids education, but it's for a good cause. See we need to win a popularity contest in some shithole on the other side of the planet and it's really important or we won't win prom queen of earth this year if they don't like us. So instead of saving money for your retirement and investing in your kids education, we gave it to pakistan because it's really important for them to like us and be our friend. Thanks and vote for me again" - Your favorite congressman.

The system is broken. There is no fixing it. All you can do is shut it down. There's no rationalizing with a junkie. There's no logic. You can shut him down, send him to a psych facility in hopes of rehab but any monies you give him are just going to enable him to continue his drug abusive lifestyle. Politicians don't want to fix the system, they want to keep getting enabled to continue to the next term and they've proven time and time again, you can not trust their words nor their actions.

[RJF]

God bless our Military men and women.

http://thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/bagram-1-e1321718174115.jpg

[codyace]

The system is broken. There is no fixing it.

While this may sound rhetorical, do you really think it's the system, or the lack of accountibility in the system? I often have a tough time with questions like this as while as corrupt as people paint the picture, I gotta look past the obvious and see 'why' it's the way it is. I can't write a system off as corrupt if it's being manipulated by those under it's control.

[inopsey]

the problem with the system is that it is flawed by design; it poses the frankinstein problem. http://www.jstor.org/stable/3749221 it must continually be fed and allowed to grow, and when it reaches the limits of growth it will try to overtake its creator, just like the movie. both capitalism and our technological society suffer from this problem.

(sorry about not being able to find the full paper for free online, im sure if anyone is interested they will find the entire article to read. )

[TheWolf]

While this may sound rhetorical, do you really think it's the system, or the lack of accountibility in the system? I often have a tough time with questions like this as while as corrupt as people paint the picture, I gotta look past the obvious and see 'why' it's the way it is. I can't write a system off as corrupt if it's being manipulated by those under it's control.

There was an interesting story told by a friend of mine. He calls it the story of "Goodwill". Back in the 1800's when politicians used to ride their districts and talk one on one with their constituents. A politician rode up to an old farm house of a long time supporter. They engaged in friendly conversation and the old man on the farm let the congressman know that he would not be supporting him this year. When asked why? He said it was because he voted to help a poor family in washington. See, 3 blocks from the nations capitol, a terrible fire had started on christmas eve. It had caused several houses to burn down and 3 families were left in the snow with no clothes, or roofs over their heads, the children's presents and everything was gone in the fire. Feeling that it would be terrible to ignore their plight, congressmen took up the cause and passed a small appropriations bill to provide them with a christmas dinner and one present for each of the kids as a gesture of goodwill. It was a very trivial amount for this great nation and the families appreciated it much but the farmer was very angry about it. Not about helping the families but how politicians utilized the federal treasury for "goodwill". He said that started a dangerous precedent. The gov't was not in the charity business and never should be, it's business was that of running the country. There were plenty of charitable organizations that could help the poor and congressman could have petitioned some of the wealthy citizens in the capitals area to assist. The politician assured the man that it was a one time thing and the government would not get involved in charity. Alas, the story of the christmas eve family spread, and family after family began to petition their congressmen for help after disasters. Politicians began utilizing the treasury to help their own districts and drum up good press for "goodwill" projects. Whether it be fire, flood, or natural disaster, someone was there that wanted to get re-elected and was willing to utilize the treasury for that purpose. Since then, thousands of programs have been instituted in the name of "goodwill". We ran out of good things to do for our own people that we have to help out other nations people as well. We helped the english, the french, the germans, the koreans, the vietnamese, the japanese, the chinese, the saudi's, the kuwaities, the afganies, the somalis, the israelies, etc etc. All in the name of "goodwill". When we can't help them out with a specific need, we just write them a check and let them use it ad lib for aid as "goodwill". There are now political groups that state, americans need to give more because they haven't been given enough. America has gone into so much debt from giving and giving and giving. America is not selfish but people have become to expect these gifts and whole political parties have become experts at dolling out these gifts for favors and that there's whole groups that will represent you for a fee, so you can get even better gifts. In the end, what the farmer feared came true.

Is the system broken? Can it be fixed?
What is important for someone, is not important for the other. The federal government has no business trying to determine or evaluate "need" or "goodwill". Never once has the system ever spent less than it took in, or voluntarily changed its stance from spending everything. The government is only limited by the size of it's ever expanding purse and just like someone living paycheck to paycheck, they spend every dime they take in and then some, showing rampant disregard for fiscal responsibility. It's not magic that they always end up utilizing every dime of money. It's by design. If it's there they will spend it. You can not fix the system by giving it more money because they will just keep finding more and more ways of spending it. In the end, when the money supply dries up, they will then drag the rich captains of industry to the altars of sacrifice. The ones who have money are now the problem. They don't give enough of it to us for our "goodwill" projects. In the end, when the few are sacrificed for the good of the many, all will be lost.

[Walperstyle]

I'm on a keyboard. I will save the universe. (insert multiple paragraphs of how smart I think I am)

[Walperstyle]

Make note of how 'power' is spelled on that sign at the wall street protest. These people are university educated?
http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/384524_232637766799113_100001586733979_657769_6483 94345_n.jpg

[kingkilburn]

Shall I post a pic of 20 year olds just a few years prior celebrating Hitler as a hero? How about 20 year olds protesting in Hoovervilles after the feds refused to pay what they owed? Would 20 year olds gunning down innocent people in south east asia be appropriate?

[RJF]

Pepperspray FTW

http://patdollard.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Pepperspray-500x333.jpg

[kingkilburn]

Remember you feel this way next time people are protesting something you support.

Police brutality is never an ok thing and pepper spraying a bunch of intently non violent protesters is definitely over the line.

[Matej]

This 'conflict' makes me second-hand embarrassed. Hippies always ruin every cause they associate themselves with, thus protests in the US are always full of weirdos and drum circles and people with marijuana symbols on their shirts, and the people on the other side such as RJF are just as annoying, posting all this horribly cheesy self-righteous propaganda which makes me want to claw my eyes out.

And Democrat or Tea Party, both only want what will benefit their party before or if ever they even consider the good of the nation/people/world as a whole. All they do is cleverly disguise their own interests as issues that the public will care about. In an ideal system of government, there would be no such thing as parties representing many issues at once; everyone would take sides on each major issue individually instead of being influenced to choose the side their party is on.

[mantas]

I'm on a keyboard. I will save the universe. (insert multiple paragraphs of how smart I think I am)

Haha. Word!

[word sux]

The amount of ignorance in this thread is astounding...

[Walperstyle]

Shall I post a pic of 20 year olds just a few years prior celebrating Hitler as a hero? How about 20 year olds protesting in Hoovervilles after the feds refused to pay what they owed? Would 20 year olds gunning down innocent people in south east asia be appropriate?


The pope was hitler youth... but I guess he's 'the man' too and 'evil'. Also there is a big difference between nazi propaganda films and our open internet media today. Note: even those big bad nazi's were making change in the early 30's. They certainly didn't do it by protesting. They did it by using the system to make change.

Unfortunately there is a whole generation of people that are believing the new media (internet) as 'fact' too. Have you read youtube comments on anything political? This has me very concerned being the people uploading the videos are still young and have not experienced the world at all, yet speak as if they know everything.

at least in other situations you mentioned, kids are trying to overthrow a government, instead of being disorganized, costing tax payer more money, and leaving trash everywhere. And who's to say the other side is 'innocent', you? give me a break. Another person not there, passing judgment on a situation you are not involved in.

The first thing this occupy movement lacked was leadership. The second, was a plan.

Big difference between revolution, and crybaby unorganized yelling about random ideals

[kingkilburn]

The NAZI party's bread and butter is protesting, riots, and all around thugery. They got their early guys voted in the same way the early American political machine did. Did't vote for our guy, we'll beat you up.


None of this(or what you posted as a response to my prior post) has anything to do with my point.

[Walperstyle]

The NAZI party's bread and butter is protesting, riots, and all around thugery. They got their early guys voted in the same way the early American political machine did. Did't vote for our guy, we'll beat you up.

The NAZI party had an objective and managed to obtain a vote.

Difference; I see no Occupy protestors running for office. I do see politicians taking sides to try to win a youth vote next election. Its still unorganized bs.

Anyone else watch the live stream from Oakland?

[codyace]

The NAZI party had an objective and managed to obtain a vote.

Difference; I see no Occupy protestors running for office. I do see politicians taking sides to try to win a youth vote next election. Its still unorganized bs.

Anyone else watch the live stream from Oakland?

There is without a doubt, a huge difference between a Protest and Chaos...this Occupy movement has really taken on the life of Chaos, and really doesn't help their point.

[codyace]

Remember you feel this way next time people are protesting something you support.

Police brutality is never an ok thing and pepper spraying a bunch of intently non violent protesters is definitely over the line.

The thing is, things I don't agree with I try and change through votes and or through bettering myself...not through disorganized protests in random city parks. Atop of that, I don't have the time to take off work or life to go such things.

Without a doubt Police brutality isn't condoned, but what should the police do in this situation? Let the kids run-amok, destroying everything in their path 'in the name of the movement'? Hell no. I always laugh when the occupy guys yell 'what are you guys serving and protecting by spraying us'....because they are SERVING AND PROTECTING the business owners, city, other people in the area from having this mob of people create mayhem.

Atop of that, who's to say what these protesters are saying/doing or even proding the police with. Do these people honestly think they can harrass police (or that it is their right to?) without repercussion? They are very confused if they think that (which it seems as if many do)

[kingkilburn]

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_luxalclILl1qcc8ul.jpg

[word sux]

http://edge.ebaumsworld.com/2011/11/82029970/30.jpg

[mantas]

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_luxalclILl1qcc8ul.jpg

I dont support this baptist church, but they held up signs and bitched in an orgazide fashion. Plus their protests dont last long and they probabaly dont shit all over the ground like a bunch or horses gathered in a stable, then only to roll around in it like pigs - occutaards shit and sleep in the same place. Both of the groups are made up of lunatics. A rational person would look for a job instead of wasting time at some riot. At least thecrazy baptist church has a website and a plan on that site, they have all protests listed, and they raise money on their own. Occutardsdont have any of thst...

[lflkajfj12123]

God bless our Military men and women.

god does not belong in politics or government

[Walperstyle]

god does not belong in politics or government

So, we've covered nazi's and now you are bringing religon statements in here.hahah

Where we directing this? now. :blah: lol

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x168/ppctx/71918225-1.jpg

[revcyanide]

ITT people from Canada feeling superior about US issues.




Oh shit whats new.

[revcyanide]

Also, I don't know about your cities, but this whole "people shitting in the street" thing is you all blindly following what the media portrays.

The tent camps look ugly, sure.
But there are plenty of public bathrooms in all of the areas these people protest in.which people actively use, I have gone down to both occupy Denver and occupy Colorado springs, and there is nothing of the sort there, the local businesses are happy to let them use their bathroom, and a lot of the protesters go home to shower, change etc. Each individual protester is not there 24.7 as you all seem to believe.
AND if in some of the cities this is happening, it is because the homeless have seen this as an easy meal ticket. which is not ok.

But seriously, before you draw a conclusion about this shit because of what you see on the news, step foot in an occupy camp, draw conclusions on your own. and I do not mean just drive by yelling something idiotic.

It's just sad, to see such a polarized country to see people laughing at people being pepper sprays as part of a non violent protest. I don't care who you are, that shit fucking hurts. and it lasts for days, It is also irresponsible to use like they are using it.. as there are lots of people with allergies to peppers and this can easily cause serious symptoms.

Did you know, in prison, pepper spray is used only as a very last resort, of immediate impending violence against the guard? and if a inmate is sitting down, they are considered a non threat, a guard would lose their jobs if they pepper sprayed someone who was not an active threat, I don't care how "scared" the guard was.

Bottom line, this that is happening is NOT ok, whether you agree with the protests or not, my step dad is a conservative and a police officer, he agrees that 90% of whats happening is out of line, he agrees that this police becoming militarized is a bad thing.

take your head out of your parties asses to see when american people are being harassed and abused while trying to exhibit their constitutional right.

I am a giant patriot, but both sides of the political spectrum disgusts me.
People laughing at other misfortune only because they disagree with your views, I am very much against the tea party, but if i saw something like this happening to them i would be outraged as well.

[TheWolf]

http://www.mwilliams.info/images/civildisobedience01.png


HAHAHHA

[kingkilburn]

The crazy Christians can do and say as they please no matter how hurtful or damaging it is. The best society can come up to stop them picketing right on top of funerals is fags* on loud choppers.

People get pissed about the lack of jobs and the banks and government fucking the economy and they get cracked over the head and shot in the face with teargas canisters.

College students peacefully protesting yet another hike in their tuition get pepper sprayed.


*
Fag (făg) n.

1. An extremely annoying, inconsiderate person most commonly associated with Harley riders.

2. A loud and obnoxious person who owns or frequently rides a Harley.

[word sux]

they don't do anything about the westboro baptist church because no one care about their message and hates them. the occupy movement is actually dangerous to the establishment so there for it must be done away with.

protesting is as american as apple pie, no wait its more american than apple pie...

IT IS AMERICA!

the people who scoff and look down on these people are truly unpatriotic and incredibly ignorant. This country better change soon or it will collapse, every great empire collapse's.

[Walperstyle]

ITT people from Canada feeling superior about US issues.
Oh shit whats new.

Sorry, our high employment numbers drowned you out, what did you say again America?

[codyace]

Did you know, in prison, pepper spray is used only as a very last resort, of immediate impending violence against the guard? and if a inmate is sitting down, they are considered a non threat, a guard would lose their jobs if they pepper sprayed someone who was not an active threat, I don't care how "scared" the guard was.

Is this what you've read, or know. I am VERY good friends with CO's and let me assure you Pepper Spray is used often, and it works.

FWIW: I have personally been sprayed in training; it does not last for days...minutes at best, a few hours at most.


take your head out of your parties asses to see when american people are being harassed and abused while trying to exhibit their constitutional right.

By all means they have the right to protest; with that said, they DO NOT have the right to act a fool like most art. Littering/riot-like atmosphers/ruination of public property, and general disregard for any law, just sets them up for failure. Can you really blame the police for loosing their cool when these 'poor peaceful protesters' do not listen? I'm not sure how you were raised, but no meant no...not push it until mom/dad got mad and freaked out.

I'm not saying 100% of the police are acting correctly, but you can't expect any human to be provoked for days, to not crack. I thin kmany of the pro-occupy people put police on some special pedastal for some unknown reason...they are working people (unlike the occutards) that need to feed their family, listen to their bosses, and do their job.

[Walperstyle]

^you forgot to mention obstruction of justice, assaulting an officer, break and enter, harassment, littering, stealing, among many other Illegal activity. I'm sure not all can be guilty of this, but there is a good chance guilty of at least one.

[codyace]

Nice article from the WSJ

Occupy protests cost nation's cities at least $13M - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/AP6e57b7540ed6422f8e9255077a0dfef2.html)

Ironic how the occutards bitch about government waste and spending, yet are themselves now becomming responsible for millions being wasted.

[BustedS13]

Sorry, our high employment numbers drowned you out, what did you say again America?

our money is worth more than yours again. (https://www.google.com/search?q=1+CAD+in+USD&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a)

[K_style]

our money is worth more than yours again. (https://www.google.com/search?q=1+CAD+in+USD&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a)

Damn it !! Canada trip delayed again !

[ineedone]

Nice article from the WSJ

Occupy protests cost nation's cities at least $13M - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/AP6e57b7540ed6422f8e9255077a0dfef2.html)

Ironic how the occutards bitch about government waste and spending, yet are themselves now becomming responsible for millions being wasted.

13 million across the nation... OHHH NOOO...

How does 6 billion sound... from just hedge fund managers. Seriously, how does anyone not pulling in over a cool million a year think the system is right, fair, just? It is a joke. And yet, you little neo-con turds on zilvia think you actually have a chance to be anything other then upper poor.

Tax Breaks for Billionaires (http://www.epi.org/publication/pm120/)

Lets hope those "job creators" get their tax breaks... hope you do not mind losing an extra 4k in taxes just so a billionaire or millionaire can squeak out of a few percentages points in taxes. Fun times!

Cutting Taxes for the Rich Never Ends Well | Debate Club | US News Opinion (http://www.usnews.com/debate-club/is-a-flat-tax-a-good-idea/cutting-taxes-for-the-rich-never-ends-well)

[ineedone]

God bless our Military men and women.

http://thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/bagram-1-e1321718174115.jpg

Hope the military enjoys all the fun shit that happens when they come back from war... because they are going to get screwed hardest by the top 4 percent. Part of making sure the super wealthy pay more in taxes is to ensure that returning service members receive all the healthcare and benefits they deserve for their service.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/07/world/panetta-weighs-military-cuts-once-thought-out-of-bounds.html?pagewanted=all

or not...

[ineedone]

^you forgot to mention obstruction of justice, assaulting an officer, break and enter, harassment, littering, stealing, among many other Illegal activity. I'm sure not all can be guilty of this, but there is a good chance guilty of at least one.

Like when a cop assaults a Judge?

Occupy Wall Street - Retired Judge Shoved into Wall and Threatened by NYPD (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2063716/Occupy-Wall-Street-Retired-JUDGE-shoved-wall-threatened-NYPD.html?ito=feeds-newsxml)

Who is provoking who? Last time I checked the occupy hippies were not brandishing weapons... unless you count not using deodorant as a weapon.

[codyace]

13 million across the nation... OHHH NOOO...

13 million here, 10 million there,20 million here. Sure the numbers seem insignificant compared to 6 billion, but that '6 billion' started off the same way...few mil here, couple mil there...and then it snowballs into the 6 billion it has become.

Unsure about you, but often times dismissing pennies ends up costing dollars; accountability is accountability. I don't agree with the 'oh who cares about the cost of the Occutards, look at how much this guy is wasting'....because truthfully we should be just as worried about both.


How does 6 billion sound... from just hedge fund managers. Seriously, how does anyone not pulling in over a cool million a year think the system is right, fair, just? It is a joke. And yet, you little neo-con turds on zilvia think you actually have a chance to be anything other then upper poor.

Your last presumptuous comment is funny; I don't get to worried nor caught up in classing or whatnot. I pay my bills, I goto work, I save what I can, and have fun with the rest of my time. If I'm only upper poor that's fine by me, so long as I'm happy, and survive, good.

[RJF]

Who is provoking who? Last time I checked the occupy hippies were not brandishing weapons... unless you count not using deodorant as a weapon.

No weapons? Really?

Weapons Cache Found During Zuccotti Park Cleanup, Sources Say (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/11/23/weapons-cache-found-during-zuccotti-park-clean-up-sources/)

[kingkilburn]

Oh my god! They had things that are perfectly legal to own and COULD be a weapon!

Until I see a detailed list and photos of exactly what was found I wont believe a thing they say. For all you know they had plastic butter knives.



EDIT

“It was our understanding that the protester may have had a significant number of items that could be potentially used as weapons,”

ANYTHING could be a weapon. Most "items" aren't weapons until used that way.

[ineedone]

No weapons? Really?

Weapons Cache Found During Zuccotti Park Cleanup, Sources Say (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/11/23/weapons-cache-found-during-zuccotti-park-clean-up-sources/)

HAHAHAHAHAHAH

Let me quote you some fun things from that article

"Gardeners employed by the park owners, Brookfield Properties, to clean up the mess made by occupiers during their two-month stay discovered various knives, including a large kitchen knife"

Whoa, a kitchen knife? no way... pocket knives? you mean people brought knives to a camp out? dude... serious stuff...

“Makeshift items that can be used as weapons, such as cardboard tubes with metal pipes inside, had been observed among the occupiers’ possessions.”

CARDBOARD TUBES!!!! The lawlessness!!!! Humanity gone astray!!!!

If you are going to try and make the argument that some of the protestors are nutty, which no one will dispute, at least use a valid example. Here I will do it for you. Protip: Fox news is not a reliable source of info!

Occupy Oakland protesters, police injured in clash (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/11/occupy-oakland-protesters-police-injured-in-violent-clash.html)

[ineedone]

13 million here, 10 million there,20 million here. Sure the numbers seem insignificant compared to 6 billion, but that '6 billion' started off the same way...few mil here, couple mil there...and then it snowballs into the 6 billion it has become.

One problem with your analogy, protesting is a constitutional right. Tax breaks are not. Also, 13 million across the country in 2 months is nothing compared to 6 billion from 1 extremely small industry.

Unsure about you, but often times dismissing pennies ends up costing dollars; accountability is accountability. I don't agree with the 'oh who cares about the cost of the Occutards, look at how much this guy is wasting'....because truthfully we should be just as worried about both.

The cost of having rights? Just think, raising the capital gains, or estate tax, or even the income tax on just 1 or 2 billionaires would pay for months of protesting for the rest of us!

Your last presumptuous comment is funny; I don't get to worried nor caught up in classing or whatnot. I pay my bills, I goto work, I save what I can, and have fun with the rest of my time. If I'm only upper poor that's fine by me, so long as I'm happy, and survive, good.

I think this says it best

Jesse LaGreca Confronts fox news unaired footage - occupy wall street - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhO3dTdp6ek)

[mantas]

One problem with your analogy, protesting is a constitutional right. Tax breaks are not. Also, 13 million across the country in 2 months is nothing compared to 6 billion from 1 extremely small industry.



The cost of having rights? Just think, raising the capital gains, or estate tax, or even the income tax on just 1 or 2 billionaires would pay for months of protesting for the rest of us!



I think this says it best

Jesse LaGreca Confronts fox news unaired footage - occupy wall street - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhO3dTdp6ek)

I love people like you, you people make it much easier for me to get ahead in life. I might not be the 1% you are talking about, but if you idiots keep acting they way you do, i'll be there in no time.

This whole occutard movement is great, it's just more idiots getting together and wasting their time. Once this whole thing blows over, they will all go back to their minimum wage jobs, while me and others that did not waste our time will be calling shots and making your lives a living hell.

In the end the occutards will not gain an inch, and will suffer the rest of their shitty little lives. Keep protesting, please keep it going!!! I beg you to keep this up, so it allows me to get further and further ahead.

[lflkajfj12123]

huge generalizations from both sides in this thread

they way of the politic, the way of the contriver

[ineedone]

I love people like you, you people make it much easier for me to get ahead in life. I might not be the 1% you are talking about, but if you idiots keep acting they way you do, i'll be there in no time.

Sorry, not ever going to happen. You will never get there. You are on a nissan 240sx forum. No one who makes Hundreds of millions of dollars to billions of dollars was ever on a nissan s-chasis forum... no one. EVER. Unless by making it into the 1% you mean you are going to serve in the military. If so, congrats.

This whole occutard movement is great, it's just more idiots getting together and wasting their time. Once this whole thing blows over, they will all go back to their minimum wage jobs, while me and others that did not waste our time will be calling shots and making your lives a living hell.

I think the premise for some is that there are no jobs... minimum wage or not. Really, unless you want to be a migrant seasonal farmer, most industry still has not recovered enough to really be adding jobs. But hey, you must have one sick of a career? doing what? I know people who graduated from much better law schools than myself who are "occutards", they were making more in a week than most people make in almost a year, but when the economy tanked well... corporate litigation did not do so well. But hey, us lawyers must be super lazy and like so totally hippies, yeah man, dude.

The 99% Take On Law School Employment Statistics (http://abovethelaw.com/2011/10/the-99-percents-take-on-law-school-employment-statistics/)

In the end the occutards will not gain an inch, and will suffer the rest of their shitty little lives. Keep protesting, please keep it going!!! I beg you to keep this up, so it allows me to get further and further ahead.

How does them protesting help you get ahead? Are you the manager of a clean up crew?

[RJF]

The entire Occupy movement summarized in one sign

http://pjmedia.com/tatler/files/2011/11/110511_2996.jpg

[codyace]

One problem with your analogy, protesting is a constitutional right. Tax breaks are not. Also, 13 million across the country in 2 months is nothing compared to 6 billion from 1 extremely small industry.

So let me get this straight, you are a fan of 'equal taxing'...yet apposed to tax brakes for companies that already pay more than others? I know it's a catch 22, and you're obviously arguing a technicality, but what is the difference between 'tax breaks' to the business, or a plain jane lesser tax rate in the event it becomes a flat bracket tax? To me, the end result is similar...hence not seeing the issue.


The cost of having rights? Just think, raising the capital gains, or estate tax, or even the income tax on just 1 or 2 billionaires would pay for months of protesting for the rest of us!

My fingers are pointed at the protesters, not others. Again you keep adopting the old argumentative stance of 'well if Timmy can do it, why can't I', which is (at best) lame. It's political Monday morning quarterbacking, and I can't stand it. Excusing poor behavior because others are doing it on another perspective is equally damning.

Bottom line is, I don't appreciate wasting public dollars...sure those in the spotlight of the occutards are guilty as well, but when the occutards themselves are wasting funding that can be used in other situations (lets say a natural disaster occurs and now we've got to borrow MORE 'money' because the Occcupy movement pissed away already budgeted overtime/alotments? it's contradictory at best.

I know people who graduated from much better law schools than myself who are "occutards", they were making more in a week than most people make in almost a year, but when the economy tanked well... corporate litigation did not do so well. But hey, us lawyers must be super lazy and like so totally hippies, yeah man, dude.

26 years old, cocky with his law degree -- no experience, no real world ability...just a piece of a paper that he uses to put himself above others. Come on now. Cool you'll make more money than I ever will; the day I attain your attitude towards others is the day I begin to fail.



FWIW: I'm not against assembly, nor am I against public protest. What I am against are those who assume that by having the 'right' to do something (in this case protesting) automatically excludes their behavior, regardless. That is, just because you can 'occupy' an area doesn't mean you are allowed to break other laws under the excuse of rights.

[mantas]

Sorry, not ever going to happen. You will never get there. You are on a nissan 240sx forum. No one who makes Hundreds of millions of dollars to billions of dollars was ever on a nissan s-chasis forum... no one. EVER. Unless by making it into the 1% you mean you are going to serve in the military. If so, congrats.

Hypothetically speaking, if you idiots keep protesting, I won't have to compete with you in the workplace. Which would allow me to get ahead.

I think the premise for some is that there are no jobs... minimum wage or not. Really, unless you want to be a migrant seasonal farmer, most industry still has not recovered enough to really be adding jobs. But hey, you must have one sick of a career? doing what? I know people who graduated from much better law schools than myself who are "occutards", they were making more in a week than most people make in almost a year, but when the economy tanked well... corporate litigation did not do so well. But hey, us lawyers must be super lazy and like so totally hippies, yeah man, dude.

"migrant seasonal farmer" you mean illegal immigrant? And what is wrong with working those jobs? Oh wait, you are not a survivor, you won't do what it takes to feed yourself or your family, you would rather go protest and waste time. I would work as a farmer if I had to, but I would pay my taxes and I would not bitch about the shit job, because I know I created that situation for myself. You choose your own destiny, you make your own decisions in life, and sometimes things don't workout. No one will hand you a job. It's called hard work, and less bitching please.

Your friends made more in a week than most people do in a year working in the corporate world. Now you are against the people that make that type of money in the corporate world?

See, you liberals can't ever figure which side to join, you are like cats, you go where you are fed. Liberals don't have a backbone so they don't stick to their beliefs.

How does them protesting help you get ahead? Are you the manager of a clean up crew?

Not a manager of a clean up crew. Don't assume!

I repeat:
Hypothetically speaking, if you idiots keep protesting, I won't have to compete with you in the workplace. Which would allow me to get ahead.

Whatever man, you call your own shots in life, Happy Thanksgiving.

[imotion s14]

Seriously, how does anyone not pulling in over a cool million a year think the system is right, fair, just? It is a joke. And yet, you little neo-con turds on zilvia think you actually have a chance to be anything other then upper poor.

Why draw the line at 1m? Why not draw your arbitrary line at 500k to arrive at what's not "fair".

Lets hope those "job creators" get their tax breaks... hope you do not mind losing an extra 4k in taxes just so a billionaire or millionaire can squeak out of a few percentages points in taxes. Fun times!

Tax breaks don't cost tax payer money, no one is losing anything. :rofl:

All that article talks about is how the US government is missing out on potential revenues to feed their black hole.

[kingkilburn]

Tax breaks don't neccisarily cost tax payers more money but they do shift the burden down the totem pole.

[inopsey]

...........................

[inopsey]

So let me get this straight, you are a fan of 'equal taxing'...yet apposed to tax brakes for companies that already pay more than others? I know it's a catch 22, and you're obviously arguing a technicality, but what is the difference between 'tax breaks' to the business, or a plain jane lesser tax rate in the event it becomes a flat bracket tax? To me, the end result is similar...hence not seeing the issue.



My fingers are pointed at the protesters, not others. Again you keep adopting the old argumentative stance of 'well if Timmy can do it, why can't I', which is (at best) lame. It's political Monday morning quarterbacking, and I can't stand it. Excusing poor behavior because others are doing it on another perspective is equally damning.

Bottom line is, I don't appreciate wasting public dollars...sure those in the spotlight of the occutards are guilty as well, but when the occutards themselves are wasting funding that can be used in other situations (lets say a natural disaster occurs and now we've got to borrow MORE 'money' because the Occcupy movement pissed away already budgeted overtime/alotments? it's contradictory at best.



26 years old, cocky with his law degree -- no experience, no real world ability...just a piece of a paper that he uses to put himself above others. Come on now. Cool you'll make more money than I ever will; the day I attain your attitude towards others is the day I begin to fail.



FWIW: I'm not against assembly, nor am I against public protest. What I am against are those who assume that by having the 'right' to do something (in this case protesting) automatically excludes their behavior, regardless. That is, just because you can 'occupy' an area doesn't mean you are allowed to break other laws under the excuse of rights.

Why draw the line at 1m? Why not draw your arbitrary line at 500k to arrive at what's not "fair".



Tax breaks don't cost tax payer money, no one is losing anything. :rofl:

All that article talks about is how the US government is missing out on potential revenues to feed their black hole.

Hypothetically speaking, if you idiots keep protesting, I won't have to compete with you in the workplace. Which would allow me to get ahead.



"migrant seasonal farmer" you mean illegal immigrant? And what is wrong with working those jobs? Oh wait, you are not a survivor, you won't do what it takes to feed yourself or your family, you would rather go protest and waste time. I would work as a farmer if I had to, but I would pay my taxes and I would not bitch about the shit job, because I know I created that situation for myself. You choose your own destiny, you make your own decisions in life, and sometimes things don't workout. No one will hand you a job. It's called hard work, and less bitching please.

Your friends made more in a week than most people do in a year working in the corporate world. Now you are against the people that make that type of money in the corporate world?

See, you liberals can't ever figure which side to join, you are like cats, you go where you are fed. Liberals don't have a backbone so they don't stick to their beliefs.



Not a manager of a clean up crew. Don't assume!

I repeat:
Hypothetically speaking, if you idiots keep protesting, I won't have to compete with you in the workplace. Which would allow me to get ahead.

Whatever man, you call your own shots in life, Happy Thanksgiving.

totally missing the point...................

[Walperstyle]

When I get out of school, I expect to make 500,000 /year and take 6 month vacations paid, and sit on a computer talking on facebook while I work. Thats what I expect from my country!

(sarcasm)

[TheWolf]

I think instead of a tax, there should be a membership fee.

Just a flat fee that everyone pays every year to stay in the US for a year. Everyone's equal. Everyone pays the same. Everyone gets treated the same.

[imotion s14]

There is an island just off the coast of Florida where everyone is "equal" where pretty much all of OWS' demands have already been fulfilled. We should do a one time tax to fund free tickets to this socialist paradise for everyone who wants to flee.

[ineedone]

So let me get this straight, you are a fan of 'equal taxing'...yet apposed to tax brakes for companies that already pay more than others? I know it's a catch 22, and you're obviously arguing a technicality, but what is the difference between 'tax breaks' to the business, or a plain jane lesser tax rate in the event it becomes a flat bracket tax? To me, the end result is similar...hence not seeing the issue.

Where did I say "equal taxing"? Progressive taxation, to me, is really the only "real" way a rich nation can work. Anything else would need radical change in domestic and foreign policy, social policy, economic, etc. before addressing what the "best" system of taxation would be. Large corporations do not pay taxes because of the tax breaks they receive. For reference see G.E.'s Strategies Let It Avoid Taxes Altogether (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/business/economy/25tax.html?pagewanted=all). Plain Jane, small business, has no where near the lobbying power in Wash. DC to get legislation passed that would create favorable tax breaks for them. A flat tax is almost as workable as the "utopian" society. In reality the only people the flat tax help is the ultra rich, the rest of us would see major increases in our taxes.



My fingers are pointed at the protesters, not others. Again you keep adopting the old argumentative stance of 'well if Timmy can do it, why can't I', which is (at best) lame. It's political Monday morning quarterbacking, and I can't stand it. Excusing poor behavior because others are doing it on another perspective is equally damning.

What? I am not excusing any behavior. I am pointing out that protesting is a constitutional right, those things are usually important... no? Tax breaks, loopholes, incentives, etc are not constitutional rights. The government, and the people, should expect to pay to protect constitutional rights. However, I do not think the people should expect to sacrifice and to pay for tax breaks, loopholes, incentives, etc... especially when those breaks, loopholes, incentives only favor an EXTREME minority of the population. It is not monkey see monkey do.

Bottom line is, I don't appreciate wasting public dollars...sure those in the spotlight of the occutards are guilty as well, but when the occutards themselves are wasting funding that can be used in other situations (lets say a natural disaster occurs and now we've got to borrow MORE 'money' because the Occcupy movement pissed away already budgeted overtime/alotments? it's contradictory at best.

Then focus your dislike to "wasting public dollars" on the things that actually cost real money. Defense, Medicare, and Social Security. Getting upset over things considered as discretionary spending... well.. that is what the idiots who think they know actually argue about. Just saying.



26 years old, cocky with his law degree -- no experience, no real world ability...just a piece of a paper that he uses to put himself above others. Come on now. Cool you'll make more money than I ever will; the day I attain your attitude towards others is the day I begin to fail.

No experience or ability? Hmm, well, seeing as you have no idea who I am I can let that slide... I guess. Before Law School I was a Marketing Director for a construction company (which I also built shit for). During school I competed in MMA and trained fighters. I clerked for a federal Judge. And that does not include anything I did in undergrad. Last time I checked, government agencies are not dropping the big bucks. If you want to make shit loads of cash as an attorney you need to be willing to bill 3000+ hours a year. Keep in mind that it is impossible to be 100% proficient in your hours. Not easy work.



FWIW: I'm not against assembly, nor am I against public protest. What I am against are those who assume that by having the 'right' to do something (in this case protesting) automatically excludes their behavior, regardless. That is, just because you can 'occupy' an area doesn't mean you are allowed to break other laws under the excuse of rights.

If people break any laws, than sure do whatever is necessary and required under the law. However, encampments as a protest are not illegal and constructing a "tent city" is protected under the first amendment right to speech (not assembly). Clark v. Community for Creative Nonviolence (http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0468_0288_ZS.html)

[ineedone]

Hypothetically speaking, if you idiots keep protesting, I won't have to compete with you in the workplace. Which would allow me to get ahead.

You do know that there is a very diverse group of protestors. So again, what is your craft? Who are you competing with? Protip: hoping you get a job because a few thousand people are protesting is not going to work out for you man.



"migrant seasonal farmer" you mean illegal immigrant? And what is wrong with working those jobs? Oh wait, you are not a survivor, you won't do what it takes to feed yourself or your family, you would rather go protest and waste time. I would work as a farmer if I had to, but I would pay my taxes and I would not bitch about the shit job, because I know I created that situation for myself. You choose your own destiny, you make your own decisions in life, and sometimes things don't workout. No one will hand you a job. It's called hard work, and less bitching please.

Hard work... you have no idea man. Refer to my post above. Not getting into the slightly racist comment about migrant farmers...But I can guarantee you would not work for minimum wage in 95+degree heat, bent over, picking beans all day. PS. I started working on a farm when I was 12. I picked apples. One day I was stung 26 times.

Your friends made more in a week than most people do in a year working in the corporate world. Now you are against the people that make that type of money in the corporate world?

See, you liberals can't ever figure which side to join, you are like cats, you go where you are fed. Liberals don't have a backbone so they don't stick to their beliefs.

I do not care how much money people make. The more the better. I just feel you should pay your fair share. So if you own lets say 90% of the countries wealth, your tax bracket should reflect accordingly.

[ineedone]

Why draw the line at 1m? Why not draw your arbitrary line at 500k to arrive at what's not "fair".



Tax breaks don't cost tax payer money, no one is losing anything. :rofl:

All that article talks about is how the US government is missing out on potential revenues to feed their black hole.

Not sure what you mean... You have to make a crap ton of money to take advantage of the tax code. Real talk son.

Tax breaks most definitely cost money. Calculating the Cost of the Bush Tax Cuts (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/calculating-the-cost-of-the-bush-tax-cuts/2011/10/14/gIQADB7dkL_blog.html)

And for more fun play around on this Cost of Tax Cuts (http://costoftaxcuts.com/)

[RJF]

Tax cuts don't cost the government anything.

It's the people's money, not the government's.

[kingkilburn]

Tax cuts don't cost the government anything.

It's the people's money, not the government's.

Budget cuts don't cost the people any money. Tax cuts mean more loans from China and who ever else would like to foot America's bill.

[kingkilburn]

There is an island just off the coast of Florida where everyone is "equal" where pretty much all of OWS' demands have already been fulfilled. We should do a one time tax to fund free tickets to this socialist paradise for everyone who wants to flee.

That island did just fine until America enforced an embargo on it for not kissing it's ass. And before you bring up any connection with Russia or the missile crisis that was way after the fact. When forced to pick a side in a conflict you often go with the guy willing to play ball with you.

[ineedone]

The entire Occupy movement summarized in one sign

http://pjmedia.com/tatler/files/2011/11/110511_2996.jpg

I can find wackadoo signs too. http://wonkette.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Vxcpo.jpeg

Look, I summed up the Tea Party all on one RV!

http://wonkette.com/441361/rusted-camper-reminds-world-obama-is-muslim-satan-ufos-are-angels

Take the link to see all the fun things these crazies believe.

[Walperstyle]

it'd be cool if you guys were not hard left or hard right. Even a right dude like myself still agrees with two points (out of a billion) the occupy movement makes.

[kingkilburn]

I'm not really that extreme but people like RJF see the world as a black and white us vs them and when you don't agree you get pushed all the way to the other extreme.

It's hard to even defend a moderate position in that kind of environment.

[duffman1278]

No weapons? Really?

Weapons Cache Found During Zuccotti Park Cleanup, Sources Say (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/11/23/weapons-cache-found-during-zuccotti-park-clean-up-sources/)

I'm sorry but FOX is probably the least most informative news channel and most ignorant towards the occupy movement. They have purposely tried to make the movement look stupid or violent or some other nonsense. Lets not forget that one of the host actually had the nerves to call pepper spray a "food product" they need to get their head out of their asses and stop spreading their propaganda garbage.


Is this what you've read, or know. I am VERY good friends with CO's and let me assure you Pepper Spray is used often, and it works.

FWIW: I have personally been sprayed in training; it does not last for days...minutes at best, a few hours at most.

By all means they have the right to protest; with that said, they DO NOT have the right to act a fool like most art. Littering/riot-like atmosphers/ruination of public property, and general disregard for any law, just sets them up for failure. Can you really blame the police for loosing their cool when these 'poor peaceful protesters' do not listen? I'm not sure how you were raised, but no meant no...not push it until mom/dad got mad and freaked out.

I'm not saying 100% of the police are acting correctly, but you can't expect any human to be provoked for days, to not crack. I think many of the pro-occupy people put police on some special pedastal for some unknown reason...they are working people (unlike the occutards) that need to feed their family, listen to their bosses, and do their job.

Clearly most of the officers are doing their job and being professional, however it has come up often that the superiors are the ones acting foolish and not the everyday officers for the most part.

The people shouldn't have to be afraid of these cops their job is to protect us but instead this is turning into a police state. People like Mayor Bloomberg are abusing their powers to protect their wall street buddies and they use the crap excuse that they're spending all this money on OT to monitor the occupiers. They've been non violent this entire time and he just wants to use that crap to persuade the people unaware of the movement to thinking that their tax dollars are going to waste on an "unjust" cause.

Lets face it, the constitution was created so that the people control their government, but right now its the other way around.

To the OP, it doesn't seem like you understand what the protest is actually about. These people aren't out there looking for a "free ride" but yes I'm sure there's a few as with any group that probably is trying to just get everything with no work. The protestors are upset about a system that is ran by a few corporations that dump tons of money at our politicians while they screw the rest of us. They're thing is that they don't care if someone gets rich in America, there is nothing wrong with that. What's wrong is when people cheat and steal from the innocent for their own greed. And the tea party was funded by the Koch brothers, their movement started from the top and built down. Occupy was built from the bottom,up.

[Walperstyle]

I think instead of a tax, there should be a membership fee.

Just a flat fee that everyone pays every year to stay in the US for a year. Everyone's equal. Everyone pays the same. Everyone gets treated the same.

Thats called a 'Flat Tax'

[TheWolf]

Thats called a 'Flat Tax'

No... If I spend $100k.. and I pay 10% of that.. then I am taxed 10K..

If I spend 20k @ 10% then I'm taxed 2k.

A fee would be even. i.e. the rich guy pays the same as the poor guy to renew his drivers license so why not to run the gov't. It's not like because he's rich, he can collect triple the foodstamps and rent assistance or requires triple the military defense. Each person in the united states would chip in the same amount and if someone wanted to increase a social program or build a bridge or build a rocket to the moon, it would be easy because everyones monthly payment would go up or down by x dollars. Simple.

So take for instance. The gov't spent 3.5 trillion dollars last year. There's 307 million people in the US according to the last census. That'd only be $11400.65 per person. Think about that. If everyone was even and everyone had to pay, you're share would only be an easy $950/month just for the privilege of being a US citizen. Easy.

What's wrong with everyone being even?

[kingkilburn]

That sounds nice and all but for that to work the "fee" and every one but the extreme rich would go drastically up. The lower tax bracket that generally don't pay taxes or get more back than they pay in would grow to include middle class people that wouldn't be able to afford the fee. Now to help the situation they would likely make a bracketed fee range and we are back to the same problem of who pays how much.

[TheWolf]

That sounds nice and all but for that to work the "fee" and every one but the extreme rich would go drastically up. The lower tax bracket that generally don't pay taxes or get more back than they pay in would grow to include middle class people that wouldn't be able to afford the fee. Now to help the situation they would likely make a bracketed fee range and we are back to the same problem of who pays how much.

So is your argument that the lower class should be allowed to continue to live tax free forever?

Or is it that the fee is to high and thus gov't spending per person is to high?

[axiomatik]

It seems that everyone is focusing on the fringe element and nutcases that are always attracted to events like these. But what is the original purpose of these protests?

The current economy is a bum deal for millions of people graduating from college right now. They've been taught all their life that they should study hard, go to college, and then they can get a good job. Not necessarily instant wealth, but at least get into a career.

So they've done that, and due to unfortunate timing that they have no control over, they are entering the job market at a time when very few jobs are available. Beyond just the general slowdown in the economy, baby boomers are delaying retirement because their portfolios took a hit. So now, instead of all those people retiring and opening up positions, they are continuing to work and keeping those positions filled.

Then, the recent grads also have to compete against people who were laid off. Those people have work experience, and need a job. If you are an employer looking at applicants, aren't you more likely to hire someone with experience than someone fresh out of school?

There's an entire generation of people with really poor job prospects. And it's not because they are lazy, or stupid (though, statistically, obviously some of them are). There is just too many people and not enough jobs.

Corporate America is sitting on record profits, but they aren't increasing hiring. Why? Because they don't see enough growth in demand to justify the hiring. Why isn't there more demand? Because unemployment is too high. Catch-22.

So the protesters look at the cause of the recession: wild risk-taking on Wall Street plunged the economy into the worst recession in decades. And what happened to Wall Street? They got slightly lower bonuses than before, but only for a year or two.

[ineedone]

So is your argument that the lower class should be allowed to continue to live tax free forever?

Or is it that the fee is to high and thus gov't spending per person is to high?

Lower class pays plenty of tax, and that argument is so patently false that it is mind numbing that people actually believe it... when did Sales, Payroll, Property etc not count as taxes?

Your whole "fee" concept is incredibly impossible. How does a middle to lower class family of four drop 950 per person per month? You would be asking a typical family drop 45k+ a year just for the privilege of being a citizen. The average middle class income is around 60k, you just destroyed the entire economy! Unless you are insisting the government instead provide for EVERY single need of the people. That usually ends up being a scary thing.

Flat taxes will NEVER work, they disproportionally burden such a majority of people it would all but destroy the economy. Even if you could make a rational argument for the basic idea of the flat tax, you could never make the argument on how to implement it. It is almost as plausible as saying the United States should run on perfectly green no emission energy only. It is literally impossible.

Again, what is the argument against the idea that the federal income tax you should be liable for should represent the amount of the wealth you own? Why should we exclude capital gains from income to the extent that we do? It just makes no sense. Especially when not only the country, but the entire world is arguable in a economic crisis.

And your idea of everyone being "even" is what the Utopian Socialist dream is. It is not about being "even" but fair, just, prosperous, economically sound etc.

[ineedone]

Corporate America is sitting on record profits, but they aren't increasing hiring. Why? Because they don't see enough growth in demand to justify the hiring. Why isn't there more demand? Because unemployment is too high. Catch-22.

So the protesters look at the cause of the recession: wild risk-taking on Wall Street plunged the economy into the worst recession in decades. And what happened to Wall Street? They got slightly lower bonuses than before, but only for a year or two.

You want to really get your blood boiling a bit... Read this article, and I would highly suggest reading the actual book. Retirement Heist, How Firms Plunder Worker's Nest Eggs (http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2011/10/19/retirement-heist-how-firms-plunder-workers-nest-eggs/)

[TheWolf]

Lower class pays plenty of tax, and that argument is so patently false that it is mind numbing that people actually believe it... when did Sales, Payroll, Property etc not count as taxes?

The majority of taxes the poor pay are state taxes. Not federal.

Your whole "fee" concept is incredibly impossible. How does a middle to lower class family of four drop 950 per person per month? You would be asking a typical family drop 45k+ a year just for the privilege of being a citizen. The average middle class income is around 60k, you just destroyed the entire economy! Unless you are insisting the government instead provide for EVERY single need of the people. That usually ends up being a scary thing.

Yet this is what the gov't spends per person. $950 a month and it's growing. So if you're not paying $950 a month.. then who's paying it for you? did you at least send him a christmas card?

Flat taxes will NEVER work, they disproportionally burden such a majority of people it would all but destroy the economy. Even if you could make a rational argument for the basic idea of the flat tax, you could never make the argument on how to implement it.

You are correct. The poor will never contribute enough to ever come close to covering the cost of themselves.


And your idea of everyone being "even" is what the Utopian Socialist dream is. It is not about being "even" but fair, just, prosperous, economically sound etc.

I love this idea. Everyone can't be "even", it must be "fair and just". As if some cosmic deity is going to come down and assure equal opportunity. I'm sure it's not the first time you've heard it but life isn't fair.

These ideas of fair and just, all prosperous are bullshit. It would be like saying the packers need to loose the next three games because they've been monopolizing wins all year. It's not fair that their income of points is greater than most teams so they should share that. Would it make it more "fair and just" if every touchdown they score 30% of it goes to the opposing teams score? Don't you care about the other side that is poor. In points that is.

[ineedone]

The majority of taxes the poor pay are state taxes. Not federal.

And the problem with that? Again, your premise is still false. Yes, there is a significant amount of people who do not pay Federal Income Tax, however, that is not the only tax around.



Yet this is what the gov't spends per person. $950 a month and it's growing. So if you're not paying $950 a month.. then who's paying it for you? did you at least send him a christmas card?

Again, you are working on a false premise. Some people cost more/less than others depending on age, health, circumstances. There is no way to actually determine how much you actually cost the government. For example, Bank Executives. We funneled 7.7 trillion to the banks, which then paid out very large bonuses, severance, pensions etc. So who really "costs" more? The poor sap who sucks a few thousand or the dick taking a few billion?



You are correct. The poor will never contribute enough to ever come close to covering the cost of themselves.

Another completely misguided and false statement. How about those who work, pay their taxes, do not ever go on any government assistance? How much did they cost? Please try and give even a reasonable calculation for the life of that guy... you cant.


I love this idea. Everyone can't be "even", it must be "fair and just". As if some cosmic deity is going to come down and assure equal opportunity. I'm sure it's not the first time you've heard it but life isn't fair.

These ideas of fair and just, all prosperous are bullshit. It would be like saying the packers need to loose the next three games because they've been monopolizing wins all year. It's not fair that their income of points is greater than most teams so they should share that. Would it make it more "fair and just" if every touchdown they score 30% of it goes to the opposing teams score? Don't you care about the other side that is poor. In points that is.

That argument is so elementary it is laughable. This argument is not about "winners" and "losers". I could counter your argument and say, well should we make all the teams that suck start with a 40 point deficit just because they could not buy the best players on the market? And can you honestly say that every team starts off with a "even" advantage? Who gets the best draft picks? What teams have the best talent? What if the best players want to play in warm weather? What if they want the best stadium? Does training and coaches matter? You see... there is a "totality of circumstances". The reason for all this is to make the game "fair" so that any team, no matter money, coaches, etc. has a "fair" chance of winning on a Sunday (Unless your the Colts). So, when your team wins the Superbowl, you move all the way down the line on draft day, everyone wants to beat you so you have to train (pay) that much more, you need to give up a lot to get "better" players and so on.

Either way, you still need to answer why progressive taxation is wrong, unconstitutional, or well... anything other than right. Please, make an argument.

[kingkilburn]

So is your argument that the lower class should be allowed to continue to live tax free forever?

Or is it that the fee is to high and thus gov't spending per person is to high?

A little of both actually but neither as well.

Taxing people already on the edge of poverty into poverty only to have them need government assistance to survive serves no one.

Taxing a wealthy person up to the point that they made more in one day on interest in the bank accounts doesn't hurt anyone. If poor people paid that there would be no tax revenue at all.

Calling a tax a fee doesn't change the fact that the poor would probably not be able to afford it and rich people would find some way to dodge it.

[axiomatik]

These ideas of fair and just, all prosperous are bullshit. It would be like saying the packers need to loose the next three games because they've been monopolizing wins all year. It's not fair that their income of points is greater than most teams so they should share that. Would it make it more "fair and just" if every touchdown they score 30% of it goes to the opposing teams score? Don't you care about the other side that is poor. In points that is.

What a joke of an analogy. A better analogy would be if the Yankees started every game with a 5 point lead, and the Manager happened to be a good friend of the umpire and was a big contributor to the Ump's election campaign. They've got the most money, and they get a better starting position. Sure, every team has an 'equal' chance of scoring points, but translating that into wins is a different story.

I'm not a communist. I don't want to see all money divided equally to every person. Money is a powerful motivator. Some people work harder, some people are more talented, they should be able to make more money and keep it. But I don't think it is in the nation's best interest for the super-wealthy to collect a larger and larger share of the nation's wealth. I don't think that tens of millions of people should be one hospital visit away from bankruptcy. I don't think that losing your job should mean homelessness. I don't think losing your job should mean the end of your health insurance. I don't think children should be punished for the bad decisions of their parents. I think kids should be given as much opportunity to excel regardless of where they came from.

And right now, I don't see that in our country. Is it an unobtainable ideal? Maybe. But I would like to see our country work towards those ideals, not away from them.

[duffman1278]

What a joke of an analogy. A better analogy would be if the Yankees started every game with a 5 point lead, and the Manager happened to be a good friend of the umpire and was a big contributor to the Ump's election campaign. They've got the most money, and they get a better starting position. Sure, every team has an 'equal' chance of scoring points, but translating that into wins is a different story.

I'm not a communist. I don't want to see all money divided equally to every person. Money is a powerful motivator. Some people work harder, some people are more talented, they should be able to make more money and keep it. But I don't think it is in the nation's best interest for the super-wealthy to collect a larger and larger share of the nation's wealth. I don't think that tens of millions of people should be one hospital visit away from bankruptcy. I don't think that losing your job should mean homelessness. I don't think losing your job should mean the end of your health insurance. I don't think children should be punished for the bad decisions of their parents. I think kids should be given as much opportunity to excel regardless of where they came from.

And right now, I don't see that in our country. Is it an unobtainable ideal? Maybe. But I would like to see our country work towards those ideals, not away from them.

Very well said, this is what's going on and I don't understand why people don't see this.

[kingkilburn]

Because they insist America is the land of the free and the home of the brave and all that other nonsense they teach us in public ed. Even now that the senate has literally made the US a police state in which you can not effect change outside of the system(sounds an awful lot like china to me) people still want to believe this is that nostalgic 1950's utopia.