Debt Ceiling Deal?

[tricky_ab]

No new debt ceiling deal reached yet, and the us credit rating could be downgraded. This is huge news (Isin't it?)...I'm Canadian but I follow what's happening down South...

So Zilvia, what do you think? (I'll post my views in a bit)....

[ESmorz]

It's all a fucking show.

Jersey Shore: The Debt Crisis

[Walperstyle]

Yeah I mean really, back in the 30's didn't the US fall short on owing Japan some oil, causing Pearl Harbor? The US is known for doing whatever it wants.

[tricky_ab]

It's all a fucking show.

Jersey Shore: The Debt Crisis

So you don't think there's economic doom in the in coming future?

Fuck this, I'm off to invest in gold...

[ESmorz]

So you don't think there's economic doom in the in coming future?

Fuck this, I'm off to invest in gold...

I do, but I'd be willing to bet my shoes it won't be because of this.

[slowvia]

I think this could be a very serious issue with the potential to bring America to its knees. America has never defaulted before, not even in the great depression. Think about that for a minute.
The biggest issue at hand is the separation of political parties. It does not matter anymore if the Democrats or Republicans come up with a brilliant plan to fix this and restore our countries wealth because the other side will turn it down and nit pick every detail. Our government no longer works for the people, they are just fighting with each other like two brothers over the last piece of cake.
The problem is that they dont realize they can share that piece. Republicans have made it very clear that if they are to agree on raising the debt ceiling, we will have to cut spending elsewhere. But not in areas that make sense. They want to cut Medicare and Social Security benefits, not military spending, and not taxing the wealthy more. Unfortunately to fix our debt issue we must first raise the debt ceiling and only THEN can we begin to cut spending and increase taxes on the wealthiest of Americans. But only if Americans demand that politicians give us real talk, and real solutions and stop demagoguing us to death.

[word sux]

nothings going to change republicans and demicrats are 2 sides of the same coin. Maybe if were weren't off occupying other countries we could lower our debt.

[lflkajfj12123]

usa won't default on anything

IT CANT

there will always be other countries to borrow from if we lose our credibility then we just raise the interest rate to sweeten the deal

government won't be cutting budgets its a sneaky term for slowing growth

[tricky_ab]

At this point I think they'll strike a deal (Who knows when), but US credit rating will go down because they'll reach an agreement too late (that's pretty bad for US economy). I'm rather puzzled about what currency can replace dollar. Not euro and not yuan definitely, China won't allow it in the near future. I think China will start strengthening its market so they could reduce dependence on US. It will take time but it needs to be done. You can't depend on one economy, especially the one which is governed by irrational, not calm-minded politicians.

[Dolph_KYAS13]

IMO china will go down with America because they have loaned the states lots of cash. That being said, the less the American dollar is worth= the less money (in theory) they will owe.

Either way the american dollar is going to shit, I am going to buy shit on ebay haha.

[Phlip]

Political talks moved to Loud Noises

[ESmorz]

Bitcoins for everybody.

[drift freaq]

I don't know if you guys realize this but yes we do need to raise the debt ceiling. Though even if it was not. It does not mean the U.S. is going to default. We are still bringing in and have cash. We also are still making payments. The only thing we would not be able to do is borrow. So yes its not good, yes it could bring a downgrade in the U.S.'s rating. Though it would not be the death or the end of the U.S. Seriously everyone has started over dramatizing this whole damn thing.

The idiots in Congress as well as the President are to blame here. Both sides should be saying ok its time to make concessions and strike a deal.

We saw this same shit go down here in California and both the Governor and legislature proved they could not put their own prurient interests aside for the sake of the state.
I hope the President and Congress prove not as lame.

[S14DB]

Get ready for Red Dawn 2, China invades the US to get it's debts paid!



Yeah I mean really, back in the 30's didn't the US fall short on owing Japan some oil, causing Pearl Harbor? The US is known for doing whatever it wants.

We didn't owe them shit.
In 1940, Japan invaded French Indochina in an effort to control supplies reaching China. The United States halted shipments of airplanes, parts, machine tools, and aviation gasoline, which was perceived by Japan as an unfriendly act. The U.S. did not stop oil exports to Japan at that time in part because prevailing sentiment in Washington was that such an action would be an extreme step, given Japanese dependence on U.S. oil, and likely to be considered a provocation by Japan.
The U.S. ceased oil exports to Japan in July 1941, following Japanese expansion into French Indochina after the fall of France, in part because of new American restrictions on domestic oil consumption. This in turn caused the Japanese to proceed with plans to take the Dutch East Indies, an oil-rich territory. The Japanese were faced with the option of either withdrawing from China and losing face or seizing and securing new sources of raw materials in the resource-rich, European-controlled colonies of South East Asia.
Attack on Pearl Harbor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor)

[ronmcdon]

Normally I'm not a huge fan of Obama, but I think he's made some genuine efforts to compromise.

[Mrpopo]

Normally I'm not a huge fan of Obama, but I think he's made some genuine efforts to compromise.

Rubbish. Vote them all out

[tricky_ab]

Normally I'm not a huge fan of Obama, but I think he's made some genuine efforts to compromise.

http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/~/media/Images/KHN%20Features/2010/February/14%2020/cartoons/Negotiation512.jpg

[S14_drift junkE]

all i know is im probably not going to get my paycheck....again. fuck all this political BS. like someone said they dont work for the people. cut military spending, okay (in some areas) but do not cut my paycheck.

[Mrpopo]

The top 10% of taxpayers in this country pay 90% of all taxes. So rich people already pay more. How is that fair? There is a reason socialism has never worked.

[beeracing s14]

will communism work? LOL

[Mrpopo]

Idk ask Russia

[adam s]

When and IF politics ever returns to the American people........ Then I will vote, until then I will not bitch and cry about who's doing what.

That said, there's a real issue here, and neither side is focusing on it, rather, they're focusing on who makes the deal, not what the deal encompasses.

It's one of those who has the last word things. Fucking bullshit.

[BustedS13]

perfectly choreographed bullshit

read 1984 bro

[Brian]

all i know is im probably not going to get my paycheck....again. fuck all this political BS. like someone said they dont work for the people. cut military spending, okay (in some areas) but do not cut my paycheck.

what happened with that Minuteman 3 today?

[Mikey213]

Money is Fiat noobs

[Omarius Maximus]

Cut the asinine military spending, and stop giving free money to Israel please. Also, start taxing the rich pieces of shit who pay less taxes than I do even with my mediocre income.

[bb4_96]

Normally I'm not a huge fan of Obama, but I think he's made some genuine efforts to compromise.

Well said sir.

[bb4_96]

-Do not cut military spending. They buy all their shit from us manufacturers, and GI's blow most their money stateside.
-Start collecting dues from everybody instead of just the top breadwinners.
-Stop televising economic doomsday.
-Give capital hill an unpaid suspension for fighting in the schoolyard

[Mrpopo]

People should really inform themselves with multiple sources before voting for any political office. Dumb people voting is why we are where we are. Most people are like birds the candidates put a nice ad up or a nice speech and everybody goes "oohh shiny, I want that" and votes the idiots in office. We should be looking at track records and voting history when we vote not the campaign lies.

[bb4_96]

^I think the problem is more of the tainted pool than shiesty individuals. I think alot of candidates go in with the best of intentions, but when it's one or few voice(s) against the many...

[Corbic]

Yeah I mean really, back in the 30's didn't the US fall short on owing Japan some oil, causing Pearl Harbor? The US is known for doing whatever it wants.

Uh no, Japan invaded China, raped. Nanking and the US said "FU that's some sick shit were not down with that" and cut off the oil supply.

[Silverbullet]

I really feel like the whole debt cieling thing isn't as serious as media likes to play it. Hasn't debt cieling been rasied every year?
So you don't think there's economic doom in the in coming future?

Fuck this, I'm off to invest in gold...

its a tarp. When there are TV commercials and scam companies (such as the company that made the "college is a scam" video) pushing hard on gold, its apparent its a bubble at this point.

IMO china will go down with America because they have loaned the states lots of cash. haha.

Get ready for Red Dawn 2, China invades the US to get it's debts paid!



We actually owe China hardly anything. Only 8% of our debt goes to China. Its hyped up by the media because its the most amount of debt we owe to a single country. The majority of our debt is owed simply to ourselves.

[bb4_96]

I really feel like the whole debt cieling thing isn't as serious as media likes to play it. Hasn't debt cieling been rasied every year?


its a tarp. When there are TV commercials and scam companies (such as the company that made the "college is a scam" video) pushing hard on gold, its apparent its a bubble at this point.





We actually owe China hardly anything. Only 8% of our debt goes to China. Its hyped up by the media because its the most amount of debt we owe to a single country. The majority of our debt is owed simply to ourselves.

You speak the truth sir.

1. Buy Inflated gold
2.
3. Profit

[BustedS13]

its a tarp.

http://i.imgur.com/QNt2z.jpg

[slowvia]

The majority of our debt is owed simply to ourselves.

More specifically the Federal Reserve.

-Do not cut military spending. They buy all their shit from us manufacturers, and GI's blow most their money stateside.
-Start collecting dues from everybody instead of just the top breadwinners.
-Stop televising economic doomsday.
-Give capital hill an unpaid suspension for fighting in the schoolyard

We SHOULD cut military spending. Were fighting three undeclared-wars right now that we honestly have no business in.
When FDR was in office the wealthiest of Americans payed around 80-90% tax and they still had enough money to build ridiculous mansions in the Hamptons. STOP SUPPORTING THESE PEOPLE, THEY MAKE MORE, THEY PAY MORE. PERIOD.
I entirely agree that the media (liberal and conservative) is out of control and markets everything as doomsday, its getting pretty ridiculous.
I dont know if we can do that last bit, the majority of politicians money really doesnt come from us (taxpayers).

Cut the asinine military spending, and stop giving free money to Israel please. Also, start taxing the rich pieces of shit who pay less taxes than I do even with my mediocre income.
Agreed. End these pointless occupations in Libya, Afghanistan and Iraq. We dont need to be world police. Let the world figure it out on their own.

perfectly choreographed bullshit
Yup.

There is a reason socialism has never worked.
Oh rly?
China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China)
And do you even know what that means? Because America could not be further from a socialist regime. We are die hard capitalists by evidence of the gap between the rich, the poor and the middle class. Hell, its that we even have those classes that defines us as capitalists.
I personally believe that we could do very well under a Democratic Socialist society. Go read some more about socialism before you argue my point.

Normally I'm not a huge fan of Obama, but I think he's made some genuine efforts to compromise.
I totally agree. I think this is where Obama is really showing his leadership. Hes not losing his shit when it could be so easy to do so. Hes calm cool and collected and just trying to do the right thing for Americans. Not what I figured would happen back when he was elected.

Ok thats all for now.

[slowvia]

Ill just leave this here.
Inflexible GOP should listen to Reagan on debt - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/07/28/avlon.debt.reagan/)

[Mrpopo]

China is communist not socialist. There is a reason people flee from china, Cuba, Venezuela, and north Korea to claim political asylum in America. Look at Greece, I'm sure they are loving socialism. Open your eyes and learn some real history.
A man should be able to keep what he earns and do whatever he wants with it. No one owes anybody anything because they are down on their luck. America has always been a charitable nation taking care of our own but capital hill has taken that charity and turned it into a requirement now. Be real and quit living in a fantasy world

[rc1honda]

It's all a ponzi scheme. A Bernie Madoff to the nith degree. Our debt is really owed to the Federal reserve which is a independent corporation. The Fed give us that money at a interest anyway so all the money ever printed was already debted to us.

Raising the debt ceiling to cut spending and ultimately reduce debt is fucking laughable. You can't pay off debt with more debt. These guys have no intention of ever reducing the national debt. The shit is about to hit the fan so right now is a big deal. But the minute they raise the debt ceiling it will be business as usual.

In about 2 years we will need to raise it again and again and again. Until the debt hit's 20 trillion and the government raids your bank accounts and gold vaults will the American people wake up. The biggest ponzi scheme of all time will have runs it's course and the American economic bubble will collapse and then we can start to rebuild.

When we do raise this ceiling nothing is going to change. Nothing. All it will do is buy time enough for these politicians to get rich until the next batch needs their debt ceiling raised too.

[slowvia]

China is communist not socialist. There is a reason people flee from china, Cuba, Venezuela, and north Korea to claim political asylum in America. Look at Greece, I'm sure they are loving socialism. Open your eyes and learn some real history.
A man should be able to keep what he earns and do whatever he wants with it. No one owes anybody anything because they are down on their luck. America has always been a charitable nation taking care of our own but capital hill has taken that charity and turned it into a requirement now. Be real and quit living in a fantasy world

Im not going to argue because you and I will never agree. Doesnt necessarily make you or I wrong.
But ultimately we will never be out of debt because yes, the Fed leases every American dollar to the American people at interest. Until we end the Fed, we will all be held prisoner.
By the way the debt ceiling being raised is a common thing that has been going on without debate for years. Regan raised it 17 times.

[Corbic]

When FDR was in office the wealthiest of Americans payed around 80-90% tax and they still had enough money to build ridiculous mansions in the Hamptons. STOP SUPPORTING THESE PEOPLE, THEY MAKE MORE, THEY PAY MORE. PERIOD.


Are you retarded or are you just regurgitating utter bullshit from your 11th grade retarded teacher?

FDR was the hero that dragged out the depression, not the savior. In fact he was the spark that created this entire entitlement infero that is sucking the air out of us today

WWII and the mass expansion of American Industry ended the depression.

FDRs "tax the rich 90%" us what created the tax loop-hole off-shores bank account shot we have today as well. Tax revenue dramatically dropped exertions he raised taxes and the crippelled blue-blooded asshole could not figure out why.


You want to fix this country's tax system? It needs a more pragmatic approach. Sure the top 10% have 90% of the wealth, but they also pay 80% of the taxes. However the bottom 55% PAY NO TAXES and receive 90% of the tax money in the forum of welfare, entitlements and taxes returns ($4,500 income credit earned wtfbbq).

Everyone should pay a flat 25%. That it, no more, no less. No returns, no loop holes, no deductibles...25%

Now everyone has a vested interest in what shit costs and how we spend our money.

[Corbic]

I really feel like the whole debt cieling thing isn't as serious as media likes to play it. Hasn't debt cieling been rasied every year?



The issue isn't the debt ceiling but our debt rating. You can only have so many credit cards before the bank kills your credit score.

If the US loses our AAA rating that means interest rates explode. Banks loan you money at 3% to buy a house because they get it for .7% from the Fed.

If the Fed is now charging the banks 8%, and they charge you 11% for that same mortgage...

You just went from paying $100,000 in interest to $485,000 for the same god damn $200,000 house.

How does a 17-20% interest auto loan? With rates like that it's 1978 all over again and you think companies and employment us struggling now... shit

[Toi]

I have no clue why they cannot come to an agreement. I could care less though, I didn't put any of those douche bags in office.

I hate politicians, they get way to many benefits (start cutting there), their pay is ridiculous, why are the tax payers making these people millionaires?

Anyway let em bicker, its not hurting me!

[axiomatik]

Boehner really has it together. I don't know why he is working so hard to iron out a deal with the Tea-partiers in his Party. A deal that the Tea Party likes won't pass the Senate and won't be signed by the President. He should stop wasting everyone's time, stop showboating on these 'walkouts' and actually hammer out a deal with the Democrats that will pass both houses and get signed by the Pres. I haven't seen the Republicans make a single concession in all these talks. They are holding the American Economy hostage.

[duffman1278]

Are you retarded or are you just regurgitating utter bullshit from your 11th grade retarded teacher?

FDR was the hero that dragged out the depression, not the savior. In fact he was the spark that created this entire entitlement infero that is sucking the air out of us today

WWII and the mass expansion of American Industry ended the depression.

FDRs "tax the rich 90%" us what created the tax loop-hole off-shores bank account shot we have today as well. Tax revenue dramatically dropped exertions he raised taxes and the crippelled blue-blooded asshole could not figure out why.


You want to fix this country's tax system? It needs a more pragmatic approach. Sure the top 10% have 90% of the wealth, but they also pay 80% of the taxes. However the bottom 55% PAY NO TAXES and receive 90% of the tax money in the forum of welfare, entitlements and taxes returns ($4,500 income credit earned wtfbbq).

Everyone should pay a flat 25%. That it, no more, no less. No returns, no loop holes, no deductibles...25%

Now everyone has a vested interest in what shit costs and how we spend our money.

I understand how you feel about not always going after the top richest people in the US, but what frustrates me is companies like GE get away with not owing taxes and instead actually recieve money for their tax returns. And it's not even a little, they recieved over 100 million dollars. And many big companies, even if they do pay taxes pay very little.

[slowvia]

Are you retarded or are you just regurgitating utter bullshit from your 11th grade retarded teacher?

FDR was the hero that dragged out the depression, not the savior. In fact he was the spark that created this entire entitlement infero that is sucking the air out of us today

WWII and the mass expansion of American Industry ended the depression.

FDRs "tax the rich 90%" us what created the tax loop-hole off-shores bank account shot we have today as well. Tax revenue dramatically dropped exertions he raised taxes and the crippelled blue-blooded asshole could not figure out why.


You want to fix this country's tax system? It needs a more pragmatic approach. Sure the top 10% have 90% of the wealth, but they also pay 80% of the taxes. However the bottom 55% PAY NO TAXES and receive 90% of the tax money in the forum of welfare, entitlements and taxes returns ($4,500 income credit earned wtfbbq).

Everyone should pay a flat 25%. That it, no more, no less. No returns, no loop holes, no deductibles...25%

Now everyone has a vested interest in what shit costs and how we spend our money.

No I dont think Im retarded, thanks for the concern though:).
Here is where your argument gets a little tricky. Do the wealthy pay more in taxes than the middle class? Well that depends on how you look at it. In terms of the amount of money they actually pay, yes they pay more than middle class families. However, what Im upset about is the fact that they pay a smaller percentage in taxes. They actually pay a smaller percent of their gross income than I do, and I work a part time minimum wage job.
Personally I feel cheated that I pay more of a percentage of my pay check to taxes making less than 15K a year than someone who brings in over 7 figures. What I want to see is the wealthiest of Americans paying a larger percentage of their income towards taxes than I do.
And what I was implying by you make more you pay more is quite simple. Take sales tax for instance, you wouldnt expect to pay less sales tax on something that costs $1000 than something that costs $1 now would you?

[rc1honda]

Are you retarded or are you just regurgitating utter bullshit from your 11th grade retarded teacher?

FDR was the hero that dragged out the depression, not the savior. In fact he was the spark that created this entire entitlement infero that is sucking the air out of us today

Everyone should pay a flat 25%. That it, no more, no less. No returns, no loop holes, no deductibles...25%

Now everyone has a vested interest in what shit costs and how we spend our money.

Fucking A brochacho . But the The Lend-Lease was a stroke of pure genius by FDR. Kept factories open and made it so there were jobs waiting for the baby boomers when then got back stateside.


There is so many angles of interest and debate on the debt crisis shit it almost umpossible to understand it all. Between entiltments, socialism, fractional reserve banking, derivates, defaults, social security, US treasury bonds and a capitalist ruling elite how the fuck can a normal person have any semblance of insight into what policy is the most logical approach to save a dying economy?


Where are all our visionary political and financial leaders of yesteryear? Off making billions with hedge funds and junk bonds?

[S14DB]

Apple cash on hand: $76 billion. US Treasury: $74 billion. - CSMonitor.com (http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/Latest-News-Wires/2011/0729/Apple-cash-on-hand-76-billion.-US-Treasury-74-billion)

[lflkajfj12123]

no i dont think im retarded, thanks for the concern though:).
Here is where your argument gets a little tricky. Do the wealthy pay more in taxes than the middle class? Well that depends on how you look at it. In terms of the amount of money they actually pay, yes they pay more than middle class families. However, what im upset about is the fact that they pay a smaller percentage in taxes. They actually pay a smaller percent of their gross income than i do, and i work a part time minimum wage job.
personally i feel cheated that i pay more of a percentage of my pay check to taxes making less than 15k a year than someone who brings in over 7 figures. What i want to see is the wealthiest of americans paying a larger percentage of their income towards taxes than i do.
And what i was implying by you make more you pay more is quite simple. Take sales tax for instance, you wouldnt expect to pay less sales tax on something that costs $1000 than something that costs $1 now would you?

　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　

[slowvia]

^^Very constructive of you. Thanks for quoting and highlighting your favorite parts!

[lflkajfj12123]

Actually I just made cliff notes for everyone else!

[slowvia]

Dont know if you guys have heard yet (probably though) but they reached a deal today. Of course it isnt a very good one, it includes NO new incomes, it only includes cuts. I think this article does a pretty good job of breaking it down to terms we can all understand.
Debt deal: Politicians win, middle class loses - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/08/01/mitchell.debt.deal/index.html?iref=allsearch)

[Mrpopo]

Actually slowvia, the less you make the lower your tax bracket(percentage). Anybody over 200k/yr is paying at least 45% taxes. You telling me 45% of your pay goes to taxes? Check the tax code. You can't cheat the system unless your the government. The prez starts all this class warfare crap because it benefits him come election time. I like to deal in facts not fairy tales of the man oppressing the middle class. Quit watching msnbc. We need a flat tax/fair tax. That way there is no exemption or "cheating" the system. Taxes are supposed to generate revenue to run a small directed government not to support people who are not working. That is what the wording in the amendment. We(government) need to stop spending.

[slowvia]

Actually slowvia, the less you make the lower your tax bracket(percentage). Anybody over 200k/yr is paying at least 45% taxes. You telling me 45% of your pay goes to taxes? Check the tax code. You can't cheat the system unless your the government. The prez starts all this class warfare crap because it benefits him come election time. I like to deal in facts not fairy tales of the man oppressing the middle class. Quit watching msnbc. We need a flat tax/fair tax. That way there is no exemption or "cheating" the system. Taxes are supposed to generate revenue to run a small directed government not to support people who are not working. That is what the wording in the amendment. We(government) need to stop spending.

Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2003 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobs_and_Growth_Tax_Relief_Reconciliation_Act_of_2 003)
Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Growth_and_Tax_Relief_Reconciliation_Act_ of_2001)

[Mrpopo]

Exactly. Read the chart income goes up and taxes go up not the other way around

[slowvia]

Yup. Youre right. Im not gonna sit here and be an asshat when Im called out.
But the other thing you need to look at is how much the wealthy get in tax breaks compared to the middle class. Yes they do pay a higher percentage, but they have much better breaks than I do.

[axiomatik]

Actually slowvia, the less you make the lower your tax bracket(percentage). Anybody over 200k/yr is paying at least 45% taxes. You telling me 45% of your pay goes to taxes? Check the tax code. You can't cheat the system unless your the government. The prez starts all this class warfare crap because it benefits him come election time. I like to deal in facts not fairy tales of the man oppressing the middle class. Quit watching msnbc. We need a flat tax/fair tax. That way there is no exemption or "cheating" the system. Taxes are supposed to generate revenue to run a small directed government not to support people who are not working. That is what the wording in the amendment. We(government) need to stop spending.

What are you talking about? You obviously aren't talking about just income tax, because the income tax rate tops out at 35% for those making $370k+. And that is a marginal tax rate, not their effective rate.

For someone making $200k/yr, their marginal tax rate is 33%, but their effective rate (the real percentage they would pay) is 25.5%. And that is without any deductions or credits. That is the maximum income tax they would have to pay, $51,115 taxes on $200k income.

Now lets imagine they bought a $750k house and put 30% down. They now get to deduct all their mortgage interest through itemized deductions. Well, they will pay $25k in mortgage interest. Let's say they have a few other things they can itemize (charitable donations, etc), so their itemized deduction is $30k. Well, now their taxable income is just $170k, and they will pay $41k in taxes on their $200k salary, or 20.6%. Any other deductions or credits would further reduce their effective tax rate.

Interesting footnote: because the mortgage interest can be deducted, it is essentially the same as Uncle Sam subsidizing their interest payment by 33% (the tax rate they would have paid on that money if they hadn't been able to deduct it).

What about Warren Buffet? He is an investor, so most of his income is Capital Gains, not salary. He only has to pay 15% taxes on capital gains, so he probably pays a lower rate than a lot of middle-class people.

On a personal note, my wife and I have a combined income of about $115k. We own a home and have 2 kids. Last year we had to pay a little over $7,000 in income tax. So we only had to pay 7% income tax. Frankly, I think it is a little low.

[Mrpopo]

All tax breaks apply to everyone. It's not like you can say I can get a tax write off but you can't. If we did the same things all year but at different dollar amounts we could still apply for the same breaks. You can argue numbers and percentages all you want, but the fact is the IRS itself says that the top 10% of tax payers pay 90% of the nations taxes.

[S14DB]

All tax breaks apply to everyone. It's not like you can say I can get a tax write off but you can't. If we did the same things all year but at different dollar amounts we could still apply for the same breaks. You can argue numbers and percentages all you want, but the fact is the IRS itself says that the top 10% of tax payers pay 90% of the nations taxes.

And the top 10% make 99.5% of all the income.

[theicecreamdan]

All tax breaks apply to everyone. It's not like you can say I can get a tax write off but you can't. If we did the same things all year but at different dollar amounts we could still apply for the same breaks. You can argue numbers and percentages all you want, but the fact is the IRS itself says that the top 10% of tax payers pay 90% of the nations taxes.

I can't afford to buy a house, so I can't write-off interest on a mortgage payment.

[Mrpopo]

Fantasy world...wealthy people buys houses and cars all the time. That's tv for you. Wealthy people for the most art are very frugal that's why they have money. Not because they cheat the system or make money on the backs of the poor. The class envy has to stop. Get an education, get a good job, and save your money. Don't make stupid mistakes with money and you'll be fine. This economy isn't hurting some people because of that. I don't have credit cards and I don't have car loans. I make sure to keep three months pay saved at all times for emergencies. Do I wish I had more money? Sure, but I'm not going to grumble and complain and blame other people for not having it. Those people that have money earned it and I am not entitled to any of it. I'm sure you guys would love it if the government said they were going to take more of your money. Who do you think creates jobs in this country? Wealthy people with small businesses not big corporations that cut deals with the government like GE.

[imotion s14]

What about Warren Buffet? He is an investor, so most of his income is Capital Gains, not salary. He only has to pay 15% taxes on capital gains, so he probably pays a lower rate than a lot of middle-class people.

All of his income is CG because he's on the board of Berkshire and CHOOSES not to pay himself a salary.

I guess so he can blow himself and pretend that he's middle-class Joe Blow?

[imotion s14]

Unfortunately to fix our debt issue we must first raise the debt ceiling and only THEN can we begin to cut spending and increase taxes on the wealthiest of Americans.

lets say I owed $100,000 in loans.

So to fix my debt issue, I need to get a new loan to further increase my debt. Then in the future I'm going to definitely make the hard choice (that I could never make the 70 times before) to become fiscally responsible and reduce my debt.

Makes sense.

[tricky_ab]

The problem is Obama or the Democrats don't have much of a backbone.This isn't the first time Obama has caved like this to the Republicans. It was a tough situation for him if you think about.I have no doubt had Obama been tougher the Republicans would have been more than willing to take it to default. It may make everyone look bad but in the end if a default did happen and the amount of knowledge the vast majority of Americans have in politics it would be incredibly easy for the Republicans to spin this towards Obamas fault.

The tea party are dangerous they are the main reason things changed to this point and they made out on top.The problem with the Tea party from what I can see is the majority of them are well off, they have health care and such.America has this attitude that its the American dream and its everyone for themselves and this is how the tea party thinks. Here in Canada we all pay taxes fairly equally and that ensures that everyone rich or poor has things like health care and the mass majority has options and access to education at a fairly reasonable rate.

This idea isn't shared with the states unfortunately which is a shame the idea of why should I have to help someone else out is a very sad thought and this is what the tea party wants. Yet I do not fully understand the tea party. The stuff they complain about like medicare and stuff is about to take a hit as this deal is almost as bad as default its a mess and doesn't benefit anyone but the republicans and tea party's special interests.

It's weird to watch as the US needs to be careful because they are falling behind in most categories like education, technology and so on.The wars need to end and the US needs to get it's shit together soon and hopefully they don't get downgraded because it would suck for those trying to go to college and whatnot

[Mrpopo]

Pretty sure Canada is going the same direction that we are. Too much spending. Taxes were meant to run the government not redistribute wealth.

[TheWolf]

The tea party are dangerous they are the main reason things changed to this point and they made out on top.The problem with the Tea party from what I can see is the majority of them are well off, they have health care and such.America has this attitude that its the American dream and its everyone for themselves and this is how the tea party thinks. Here in Canada we all pay taxes fairly equally and that ensures that everyone rich or poor has things like health care and the mass majority has options and access to education at a fairly reasonable rate.

This idea isn't shared with the states unfortunately which is a shame the idea of why should I have to help someone else out is a very sad thought and this is what the tea party wants. Yet I do not fully understand the tea party. The stuff they complain about like medicare and stuff is about to take a hit as this deal is almost as bad as default its a mess and doesn't benefit anyone but the republicans and tea party's special interests.

It's weird to watch as the US needs to be careful because they are falling behind in most categories like education, technology and so on.The wars need to end and the US needs to get it's shit together soon and hopefully they don't get downgraded because it would suck for those trying to go to college and whatnot

I don't think the tea party is dangerous. I think they believe in what they care in. It's a values thing and that is mostly what most people don't get. They believe the function of national gov't is to protect the coast and deliver the mail. Their view is certainly the founding fathers didn't feel the gov't's job was to be in the student loan business or the mortgage business.

They don't believe in taking money from the gov't. They don't believe in taking someone else's pay for free due to "circumstances". They believe that social safety nets reward people for doing nothing and hurt work ethic. 95% of the wealthy got there by work strong work ethic and that certainly is not a strong societal value any more. They believe this "social decay" is caused by entitlement programs that allow people to live relatively comfortable without working. They have nothing to do other than breed. Those kids grow up knowing no work ethic.

They feel the only way to stop this cycle is to starve the entitlements. They don't think we need a national debt. It's not just about making interest payments, it's about not making interest payments. Financing is another word for paying today's obligations with tomorrows revenues. All that national debt is something someone else is going to have to pay. The country has officially split. There's no compromising on finances. You either pay it or not.

[Mrpopo]

Well said sir. I concur

[cdlong]

lets say I owed $100,000 in loans.

So to fix my debt issue, I need to get a new loan to further increase my debt. Then in the future I'm going to definitely make the hard choice (that I could never make the 70 times before) to become fiscally responsible and reduce my debt.

Makes sense.

I believe it was 102 times, but anyway... The debt ceiling and paying back the debt are independant from each other. We've already "spent" more than we have (how we got from the May deadline to the August deadline) by borrowing within the government. And we've already agreed to/planned more spending. So we need to raise the ceiling to cover that. Paying down the debt, i.e. bringing in more than we spend, is the hard choice. I lean to the left somewhat but I agree it's time to make some hard choices. And only Idiots from the Right actually think the Left wants to continue to accrue more debt. But you don't get reelected by making hard choices. We need to hold politicians accountable, but not punish them for making hard choices.

Their view is certainly the founding fathers didn't feel the gov't's job was to be in the student loan business or the mortgage business.

I bet the number of tea partiers that took out school loans and claim mortgage interest on their taxes is virtually no different than the general population. Maybe not dangerous (except in their in ability to compromise) but deluded for sure.

[codyace]

95% of the wealthy got there by work strong work ethic and that certainly is not a strong societal value any more.

I'd say only about 5-10% of the wealthiest peole got their from actually working, the number may even be less. MOST of the established wealthy people in this country are born into it anymore. Their lavish lifestyle (which is over-reported by the media) often serves as a bad example for the poor, who in turn see the rich fucking off and having a time, and then do the same themselves, never understanding what they are doing is wrong, as that's all they see on the news or on TV anymore. As much as I hate to say it, Entertainment related role models are often far from such.

Not trying to swerve the debate, as even I dot not have a firm opinion on the tea party group. (I see the positives of both sides)

[codyace]

All of his income is CG because he's on the board of Berkshire and CHOOSES not to pay himself a salary.

I guess so he can blow himself and pretend that he's middle-class Joe Blow?

I'm pretty sure the donations and assitance WG (and most of the US wealthy list) FAR surpass the taxes they would pay if they claimed a salary.

[slowvia]

I'd say only about 5-10% of the wealthiest peole got their from actually working, the number may even be less. MOST of the established wealthy people in this country are born into it anymore. Their lavish lifestyle (which is over-reported by the media) often serves as a bad example for the poor, who in turn see the rich fucking off and having a time, and then do the same themselves, never understanding what they are doing is wrong, as that's all they see on the news or on TV anymore. As much as I hate to say it, Entertainment related role models are often far from such.

Not trying to swerve the debate, as even I dot not have a firm opinion on the tea party group. (I see the positives of both sides)

Exactly. But keep in mind we arent talking about "just" well off people, the kind of people in your town that drive around in new Mercedes and such, rather the ULTRA wealthy. The Bush's, the Rockefeller's and so on. Those people were just lucky enough to be born into that situation, and thats how I feel the majority of the uber-wealthy got into their situation.
Dont get me wrong, I know a few very hard working wealthy individuals, but at the same time dont tell me that middle class workers have no work ethic and are lazy etc. We work our asses off! If the entire middle and lower class just decided to stop working for even a single day, this entire nation would fall faster than a drunk chick taking her 21st shot.

[TheWolf]

I'd say only about 5-10% of the wealthiest peole got their from actually working,

I've met a lot of wealthy individuals and to be honest, very few of them got there by luck or inheritance. If we're talking about the wealthy of the wealthy then you maybe right on some accord. What is wealthy? according to uncle sam it's 250k a year. I know people who make that and they don't feel it.


Their lavish lifestyle (which is over-reported by the media) often serves as a bad example for the poor, who in turn see the rich fucking off and having a time, and then do the same themselves, never understanding what they are doing is wrong, as that's all they see on the news or on TV anymore. As much as I hate to say it, Entertainment related role models are often far from such.

If we're talking about setting examples here, then I can see where some jersey shore idiots show getting a nice car and running a $500 bar tab every night might be a bad example. Kids need role models and they can't count on their parents to be that model due to the degradation of the societal family unit. (that's a much longer different argument)

What example do our politicians set for us? Al gore's up there telling me I need to run out to home depot to buy CFL's for my bathroom to save the planet while his mansion runs $30,000 a year in electric. Obama's talking about saving the country money while flying air force 1 around trolling for campaign contributions. "What we're out of money? Let me just get on my personal 747 and go play a round of golf and see if I can't jingle the cash tree one more time" :tardrim:

As I've said before, obama was the best thing that ever happened for the republicans. Love him or hate him. He's so polarizing that he forces you to pick a side. He's worse than justin beiber. You're either in love with him and he can do no wrong. Or he's a complete twit. The pressure that created this groundswell opposition was created by him. Before it was a loose group of individuals that wrote their congressman, now it's somewhat of a movement. Calling them jihadists or terrorists only fuels them. They believe the gov't is operating out of trust with the publics dollar and wants them to restore that trust. You can't borrow your way out of a ponzi scheme. You can only pay it off.

As to taking a mortgage interest deduction. Yeah I do. I do the best with the rules provided for me. I don't think a mortgage interest deduction got me to buy a house and I don't think that getting rid of it would bring the housing market to a standstill. It would probably decimate the jumbo mortgage industry though. Yes there is a great need for tax reform though. That will not happen though as it's a sacred cow of both sides.

In the end, I foresee a proposed VAT tax of 1% being floated out of this group of 12 panel and no one agreeing to anything they say.

[codyace]

according to uncle sam it's 250k a year. I know people who make that and they don't feel it.

To make 250k a year and not feal wealthy is their own fault; there is no reason to not be well off with that aspect. It all boils down to the cliche needs vs wants.

What example do our politicians set for us? Al gore's up there telling me I need to run out to home depot to buy CFL's for my bathroom to save the planet while his mansion runs $30,000 a year in electric. Obama's talking about saving the country money while flying air force 1 around trolling for campaign contributions. "What we're out of money? Let me just get on my personal 747 and go play a round of golf and see if I can't jingle the cash tree one more time" :tardrim:

Without a doubt our politicians set (or don't bother) a terrible role image, however I do not think our presidents ability (in regard to travel) should stand as the prime example of whats wrong with the nation. Since day one they've got special treatment, and I wholeheartedly agree that they deserve it, whether I like them or not. They 'are' our leader...no matter which way you slice it they will get special treatment regardless.


Yes there is a great need for tax reform though. That will not happen though as it's a sacred cow of both sides.

Unfortunatly you are (to me) 100% right. Neither side stands to personally gain from reform, so they would rather let it be. That's terrible politics.

[Mrpopo]

The fair/flat tax is the most equal and fair system of all but politicians hate it because they can't dip into our pockets whenever they please to buy votes. Look at the country Georgia which has a flat tax system. Their economy is booming and the flat tax is the reason.

250k in some places might be a nice paycheck but in most places like San Fran, new York, or atl it is minuscule. Cost of living makes a big difference.

[cdlong]

The fair/flat tax is the most equal and fair system of all but politicians hate it because they can't dip into our pockets whenever they please to buy votes. Look at the country Georgia which has a flat tax system. Their economy is booming and the flat tax is the reason.

250k in some places might be a nice paycheck but in most places like San Fran, new York, or atl it is minuscule. Cost of living makes a big difference.

I've seen studies that say people are generally no happier once they make over $75k/year. A quick google search came up with this cost of living chart (http://www.missourieconomy.org/indicators/cost_of_living/index.stm). In the continental US, the highest, NY/CA, is 44%higher than the lowest, MI. So the money buying happiness threshold (I just made that up) in CA is $108K/year. Cody's right, being happy at that point is their problem, more money won't fix it.

Georgia is doing well because they are giving tax breaks to bring in new businesses and manufacturing. Tax breaks. To specific companies. They're buying your votes with jobs. Damn them. That being said, I think a simplier tax code is necessary.

I've met a lot of wealthy individuals and to be honest, very few of them got there by luck or inheritance. If we're talking about the wealthy of the wealthy then you maybe right on some accord. What is wealthy? according to uncle sam it's 250k a year. I know people who make that and they don't feel it.

I think the point is that someone that makes $250k/yr generally doesn't work five times harder than someone that makes $50k/yr. And someone that makes $10M certainly doesn't work 200 times harder.

As to taking a mortgage interest deduction. Yeah I do. I do the best with the rules provided for me. I don't think a mortgage interest deduction got me to buy a house and I don't think that getting rid of it would bring the housing market to a standstill. It would probably decimate the jumbo mortgage industry though. Yes there is a great need for tax reform though. That will not happen though as it's a sacred cow of both sides.

And that's fine, but to pretend you (2nd person, not you TheWolf) don't benefit from it and act like it's the downfall of the American society is either deceptive or stupid. It didn't get me to buy my house either, but to change something that might make a small difference while we're still in a massive housing crisis is a bad idea.

[DoobieS13]

Fucccccccc this shit. Lol moving to Australia:squintd:

[Freddy]

Pretty sure Canada is going the same direction that we are. Too much spending. Taxes were meant to run the government not redistribute wealth.

wait... what?

[axiomatik]

250k in some places might be a nice paycheck but in most places like San Fran, new York, or atl it is minuscule. Cost of living makes a big difference.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA you are absolutely insane. I live in Atlanta, and I have lived in San Francisco. The cost of living in Atlanta is nothing compared to SF or NY. Living in Atlanta is cheap. If you think $250k is minuscule in ATL then you have an entirely warped sense of economic reality. I work with a bunch of blue-collar guys who make about $16/hour (~$33k/yr), and yet somehow they own homes and buy new cars (not all of them, mind you). How could they ever afford to do that for less than $250k/yr?

[slowvia]

You guys should watch The One Percent.

[slowvia]

250k in some places might be a nice paycheck but in most places like San Fran, new York, or atl it is minuscule. Cost of living makes a big difference.

Yeah that makes sense. Ive heard before that every single person living in New York makes at least that much, even this guy makes 100 grand a year. :duh:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3195/2668353537_679cf08ab7.jpg

[Mrpopo]

Yeah that makes sense. Ive heard before that every single person living in New York makes at least that much, even this guy makes 100 grand a year. :duh:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3195/2668353537_679cf08ab7.jpg

That has nothing to do with what I said.
And earlier I was referring to the country of Georgia near Russia. They have flat tax and the economy is booming.

[slowvia]

That has nothing to do with what I said.
And earlier I was referring to the country of Georgia near Russia. They have flat tax and the economy is booming.

250k in some places might be a nice paycheck but in most places like San Fran, new York, or atl it is minuscule.
That has everything to do with what you said sir. Be a man and admit you are wrong. No shame in that, if Im wrong, Ill be the first to admit it.

[S14DB]

That has nothing to do with what I said.
And earlier I was referring to the country of Georgia near Russia. They have flat tax and the economy is booming.

I would disagree with that correlation. Yes they have a lot of economic growth and Deficit growth. But the Flat Tax removed all taxes on businesses and put it all on individuals. This significantly reduced the corruption within the tax collectors office and increased the amount of taxes collected.

Economy of Georgia (country) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Georgia_%28country%29)

[Mrpopo]

The reason it has nothing to do with what I said slowvia, is because my statement was that 250k in some places seems less because of cost of living. Learn to read.

And the tax on individuals in Georgia is something like 19%. If you buy something you pay tax on it if you don't buy something you don't pay the tax. Very simple system.

[TheWolf]

Just remember. " We need this debt ceiling deal or the economy will spiral into a free fall."

Market Report - Aug. 4, 2011 - CNNMoney (http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/04/markets/markets_newyork/index.htm?iid=Lead)

[slowvia]

The reason it has nothing to do with what I said slowvia, is because my statement was that 250k in some places seems less because of cost of living. Learn to read.


I can read. I think the problem is a classic case of "read what I meant not what I wrote."

[ayuaddict]

250k in some places might be a nice paycheck but in most places like San Fran, new York, or atl it is minuscule. Cost of living makes a big difference.

You do realize that 250k means $250,000 per year, right?

[Mrpopo]

You do realize that 250k means $250,000 per year, right?

Uh yeah. House payment, car payment, credit cards(if you have them), utilities, maintenance on house and cars, Children's needs, food....if you're a single person in an apartment 250k a year is awesome but if you have a home and a couple kids and wife it runs out quick. Even worse if you have hobbies like 240s.

All I'm saying here people, is I shouldn't have to pay more in taxes because I make more. If you liberals are talking about social justice then you can go flush yourself you Marxist idiots. No man or government has the right to take what one man earns and give it to another in the name of equality. Just watch the next elections. The majority of Americans are tired of this BS.

[Corbic]

You do realize that 250k means $250,000 per year, right?

$250,000 is garbage. Granted it's far more then I make.

$250,000 10% toward retirement, $225,000 x taxes = $135,000 CASH

Driving 15k a year, two cars (wife) at 20mpg is ~ $6,000 a year
Average house price in 2007 was $330,000. This is a $2,784 a month Mortgage for 15 years. + PMI + PT x 12 = $39,108
Average Electric $150, Gas/Heat $180, Water/Garbage $75, Cable $125, Phones $300, $850 a month x 12 = $10,200
Average Vehicle is $30,000, $579 a month, x 2 (wife) + insurance $150 x 12 = $15,696
Home insurance - $2,200 a year
Average Student Loan payments $182 a month x 2 (you met your wife in school) 364 x 12 = $4,368
$192 per month is average cost of food per person in a family (seems really low) but that’s 4 x 192 x 12 = $9,216
Kids are reported to cost between $400 and $1,400 a month, you got two, your wealthy so they are spoiled, let's call it $1,200 x 2 x12 = $28,800
1 vacation a year, $1,800 per person x 4 = $7,200
Lawn Care - you live in a nice place, you give a damn = $1,500 a year
Home Care - $1,500 a year (that is on the cheap side)
Annual vehicle registration - $500
School Books / ect - $1,300



So this is all assuming you have 1 Wife, and two small kids, no teenagers which would add more cost for your stupid expensive clothing, cell phone plans, cars, car insurance and the constant "hey dad, spot me $20". This also does not take into account healthcare, life insurance, dental, eye-care ect. This also doesn't have all those other unexpected expensive, speeding tickets, new clothes, new tv, new ipod ext... and guess what.

Total $127,588

That leaves you $7,412 left over... but oh great, Democrats what to tax you an extra $10,000 a year cause your "rich". It's easy to think a lump of cash was "OMFG RICH" when you're a 16 year old broke ass living at home. I make Katrillionz more than I ever did in High school or College, yet I have less spending money then ever before because guess what, owning a home and taking care of business is god damn expensive.


To quote Pitbull, "Billion is the new Million"

[codyace]

$250,000 is garbage. Granted it's far more then I make.


That leaves you $7,412 left over... but oh great, Democrats what to tax you an extra $10,000 a year cause your "rich". It's easy to think a lump of cash was "OMFG RICH" when you're a 16 year old broke ass living at home. I make Katrillionz more than I ever did in High school or College, yet I have less spending money then ever before because guess what, owning a home and taking care of business is god damn expensive.



The funny/ironic thing of what you posted, is that it's a prime example of people leaving completely beyond their damn means.

THe issue IMO is not income in regard to these theoretical 'is XXXX enough money to live'...the issue are peoples delusional living standards, and their inability to maintain them. I'm not disagreeing with your list, and that it will require that to have that lifestyle, but any human being with common sense would see how to slash that list in half. These comments are not directed at you Corbic just in general :D


1. Instead of 2 20mpg cars, carpool, or get 2 30-40 mpg cars. Diesel jettas? Honda civics?

2. Average home price may have been that, but it's TOO MUCH. Move. Granted you need to follow jobs, but you can find better deals with much lower mortanges

3.Phones $300, $850 a month x 12 = $10,200 Here is another disaster: WHY. I will gladly pay 25 dollars a month for my phone, that's 300 dollars a year.

4. BUy used cars. Who needs a 30k car? 1500 dollar Civic that you commute in that gets 40 mpg is the way to go here.

5. Student loans? Well that's a risk. As much as I don't think it's the only reason to join, but there were PLENTY of options that would pay for school and or take a big amount off. The military is 'always' hiring.

6. Lawn care? Mow it yourself. 1500 bucks for a nice used tractor, and do it up.

7. Home care? It's amazing how lazy people are.


I know it's off topic, but I'm a firm believer that maintaining a lifestyle should not be the sole reason of income. For 250k a year, I could live VERY comfortably, and have a great time.

[Corbic]

The funny/ironic thing of what you posted, is
that it's a prime example of people leaving completely beyond their damn
means.

THe issue IMO is not income in regard to these theoretical 'is XXXX
enough money to live'...the issue are peoples delusional living
standards, and their inability to maintain them. I'm not disagreeing
with your list, and that it will require that to have that lifestyle,
but any human being with common sense would see how to slash that list
in half. These comments are not directed at you Corbic just in general
:D

Ok Jimmy Carter... so someone making 250k a year should live like they
are only making $20,000 a year? I'm sorry, but that strikes me as
delusional. People work hard and make money to live better. That
thinking is what Economists constantly caution about, if the Government
is just planning on taking all your money so that you live "like
everyone else" then why make money? With no incentive to make money, you
have the entire country will end up like the inner cities or parts of
Europe. Please notice how no technological, economical or industrial
innovation has come from Belgium or Greece.






1. Instead of 2 20mpg cars, carpool, or get 2 30-40 mpg cars. Diesel
jettas? Honda civics?


Carpooling is the most unrealistic and idiotic idea ever. If I'm making
250k a year, I'm not bumming rides like some high school kid or inner
city dreg. 20mpg is the average. Sure Mom has a Civic, Dad a Pick Up, or
maybe Dad a used Audi and Mom a Windstar. Maybe we could elect you, and
you could mandate the only car in America is a 50mpg Yugo and then have
it built by the Government, 1 per family, so where all equal.



2. Average home price may have been that, but it's TOO MUCH. Move.
Granted you need to follow jobs, but you can find better deals with much
lower mortgages


I was using 2007 dollars as stated. Yes, today houses are cheaper, but
if you have a family of 4 and are already making 250k, you no doubt
bought a house 4-5 years ago. And what do you mean "find better deals".
If I want to live in a nice, safe neighborhood with good schools and a
large 4-5 bedroom house with a 3 car garage, you are paying minimal
$250-350k depending on area. Not everyone wants to live a 50 year old 2
bedroom bungalow in some rundown neighborhood. This is why you strive to
make more money, to get away for those places.


3.Phones $300, $850 a month x 12 = $10,200 Here is another
disaster: WHY. I will gladly pay 25 dollars a month for my phone, that's
300 dollars a year.


Your are kind of miss quoting me. Phones would be $3,600. If you want a
full plan from ATT or Verizon, it will cost about $100 a month.
Internet, Talk and Text. Once again, making 250k a year it's expected
that you'd be accessible 24/7 with a email ready phone. I got $300
assuming your kid has a phone. This list was in no way to be a guide to
live, just an example of how quick "all that money" can go.



4. BUy used cars. Who needs a 30k car? 1500 dollar Civic that you
commute in that gets 40 mpg is the way to go here.
Better yet, Ride the Bus! Buy a Horse, walk!

Get over it. Realities are, why should you expect a professional with a
family to live like a broke ass college kid? New(Er) cars offer better
safety, comfort and reliability. Buying the "used" 10k POS to save
upfront can easily cost you in the long run with repair (few people car
work on their own car) and it will be a less safe, less comfortable POS.




5. Student loans? Well that's a risk. As much as I don't think it's the
only reason to join, but there were PLENTY of options that would pay for
school and or take a big amount off. The military is 'always' hiring.


Brilliant. Fuck School, Join the Military, go to Afghanistan and you'll
be making 250k in a few years. The only people that lead financially
successful lives post Military are Officers and that requires a College
degree prior to enlistment. To make $250k a year, you are going to need
to be extremely creative/business savy, or a high-class professional -
You will no doubt need post graduate educations, Medical, Law, MBA



6. Lawn care? Mow it yourself. 1500 bucks for a nice used tractor, and
do it up.

You don't own a lawn, do you? $1,500 was the DIY costing. This includes
purchase and upkeep of tools - racks, shovels, mowers, wackers and saws.
As well as fertilizer, sprinkler systems, ect ect.


7. Home care? It's amazing how lazy people are.
No I'm not talking about some Illegal Maid, I'm talking about "crap,
this window needs replaced" "Oh deer, the roof is going" "hmm, time to
repaint this room" "@#%king water heater!!!!" "you flushed what down
the toilet!!" "wow is their now power in the basement?!"




I know it's off topic, but I'm a firm believer that maintaining a
lifestyle should not be the sole reason of income. For 250k a year, I
could live VERY comfortably, and have a great time.

YOU COULD. As COULD I. However, as could most people. My point is I'm
tired of hearing broke ass kids whine about how much money 250k ect is.
Its not a lot of money. Its good money, but you are not rolling in a
Ferrari and jet setting to your private yatch in Miami. You're just some
schmuck dentist with a lot of bills, some kids and a 4 bedroom house,
not some anti-Christ living in a Castle rolling in gold coins that
deserves to have his money taken from him so I can buy another carton of
cigarettes and some rims for my broke ass Cutlass.

Don't start throwing rocks at the 80-250k income earners and their
financial decisions to buy a new Camry and lease a H2 when poor people
make even bigger, even stupider financial decisions on a daily basis.

Yes, lets buy a six-pack and carton of smokes for $50 when I have no
health insurance and I'm laid off work. BRILLIANT.
I want a 240sx project even though I live at home and I'm trying to go
to school and I make $400 a month working at Wal-Mart! But dood, this
$40 streetware shirt is tight!!

[axiomatik]

The reason it has nothing to do with what I said slowvia, is because my statement was that 250k in some places seems less because of cost of living. Learn to read.

And the tax on individuals in Georgia is something like 19%. If you buy something you pay tax on it if you don't buy something you don't pay the tax. Very simple system.

Georgia has gone through major reforms of all kinds in the past 10 years. I like how you picked out a single reform and attribute all of their recent success to that single reform.

Here, let me do the same thing:

Look at the country Georgia which doubled the personal income tax rate. Their economy is booming and the higher taxes is the reason.

Therefore, we should double our personal tax rates here in the US and our economy will boom too! :ugh:

[codyace]

Ok Jimmy Carter... so someone making 250k a year should live like they
are only making $20,000 a year? I'm sorry, but that strikes me as
delusional. People work hard and make money to live better. That
thinking is what Economists constantly caution about, if the Government
is just planning on taking all your money so that you live "like
everyone else" then why make money? With no incentive to make money, you
have the entire country will end up like the inner cities or parts of
Europe. Please notice how no technological, economical or industrial
innovation has come from Belgium or Greece.

Just because you could live a certain way, does not mean you should live a certain way. Because I can own a Iphone and Ipad an Itv and a Imaid (for example) is no reason that I should. I mean how many people off the top of your head do you know that are broke, yet have a bunch of fancy nonsense that they don't need? That's my point. Granted it's not my right to tell people what they deserve and don't deserve, but damn if I won't voice my opinion on some of my friends dumbass choices when they can't afford to pay their mortages.

My point remains, more and more people live outside of their means, regardless of of their income or situation. I'm not saying you should live like a ramen noodle, 1982 Beretta driving, no cleaning supplies frat boy at all...but you can live an enjoyable lifestyle with basic things. To me, I'd rather have store brand condiments and stuff to enjoy real butchershop meat. I'd rather not goto the bar every night of the week to enjoy craft beer at home with friends. It's all a matter of proportion; it's all a matter of self control.

I don't disagree that if you want to live like a millionaire, that 250k is not enough...but it proves my point, you can't live like a millionaire with 250k, much like you can't live like upper middle class with 30k. We all work to live better, that's the point. I do not work to support a lifestyle though.

[Mrpopo]

Axio you are living proof that liberalism is a mental disorder. Over taxing and the government not listening to the people is the reason there was a revolution in this country. I have friends from north Korea, Cuba, Venezuela, and Iran they all fled to this country because of what it is and what it represents. This is the best country in the world. When the government starts oppressing the people in this country, we will have a revolt of some sort again. Preferably in the form of voting the douchebags out of office.
Liberals are in the minority. Proof of that is the results from the midterm election. People were sick of bush that's why they all jumped on the obama bandwagon. Now that everyone is learning who he really is, they are realizing their mistake.

[axiomatik]

$250,000 is garbage. Granted it's far more then I make.

$250,000 10% toward retirement, $225,000 x taxes = $135,000 CASH

Driving 15k a year, two cars (wife) at 20mpg is ~ $6,000 a year


......

That's a great hypothetical situation of someone making more than 95% of Americans and still being broke, and it's why people in the US are in too much debt.

Now let me give you another scenario:

My wife and I have a combined gross household income of ~$115k/yr
We own a $240k house, which here in Atlanta is plenty for a nice new big house out in the suburbs or a smaller, older house more centrally located. ~$1200/mo
We pay ~$700/month on student loans
We pay ~$2000/month on childcare for our two young kids in an expensive, private preschool.
We pay all the usual utilities.
We pay the usual insurance.
No car payments, we both have older, paid off vehicles that are mostly reliable. We do have to pay for repairs every so often.
We both commute individually.
We go on vacation twice a year, once to visit family at Christmas time, once just to relax.
We contribute 10% to our retirement accounts.

And yet, we have comfortable savings. We have no credit card debt. We have enough money left over to buy the things we want. We don't have to worry about money.

Plus, next month my childcare expenses will go down by $700/month because my oldest is going into kindergarten, so I won't need full-time care. Also, My student loan payments are going down by $400/month because I just paid one off (I didn't even need to pay that much, I was paying $230/month extra just to pay it off early). So now I'm going to have an additional $1100 per month that I can do with whatever I want.

Boy, I feel so poor.

[Corbic]

Boy, I feel so poor.

Cool, send Uncle Sam a check for $5,000 then.

[Mrpopo]

Cool, send Uncle Sam a check for $5,000 then.

There is a spot on the tax form to send extra money in.

Axio are you on 240atl?

[axiomatik]

Cool, send Uncle Sam a check for $5,000 then.

My household income puts me in the top 15% in the US. Are you saying those that make more money should pay more taxes than they already are?

Axio are you on 240atl?

I am, but not very often. same SN.

[Mrpopo]

I say less taxes and less government spending

[Freddy]

when you guys mention 250k income, is that for the household or for just one person? Because right now I'm very surprise you guys think 250k isn't enough money. it's probably because I'm Canadian, and our lifestyles are completely different.

[Corbic]

My household income puts me in the top 15% in the US. Are you saying those that make more money should pay more taxes than they already are?


If you read the thread that is precisly what people are arguing. They are claiming "$250k is rich and should pay more".

I'm arguing that $250k is not "that much" money if you are a family of 4 living a contemporary life style.


At 250k, you are no fucking Rockerfeller or Kennedy, just a schmuck Dentist or stressed out Department Manager, both of whom busted as for 10-15 years to get there. Not a spoiled rotten granddaughter of a hotel empire or a fat assed whore who's daddy got a murdering celeb off for a few million.

I personally believe 25%, everyone pays. That's it. Layoff the IRS.

Government lives in budget. Cut entitlements.

SS reform. No SS Disability no survivors benefits, it's for retirement and that's it.

Privatize Medicare + Medicade. National Clinics, not National Heathcare. No state restrictions on Healthcare Insurance. No Copayment BS, back to % system.

Your plan is 15%, you pay 15% the bill.

[Corbic]

when you guys mention 250k income, is that for the household or for just one person? Because right now I'm very surprise you guys think 250k isn't enough money. it's probably because I'm Canadian, and our lifestyles are completely different.

Household, pre taxes.

[slowvia]

$250,000 is garbage. Granted it's far more then I make.

$250,000 10% toward retirement, $225,000 x taxes = $135,000 CASH

Driving 15k a year, two cars (wife) at 20mpg is ~ $6,000 a year
Average house price in 2007 was $330,000. This is a $2,784 a month Mortgage for 15 years. + PMI + PT x 12 = $39,108
Average Electric $150, Gas/Heat $180, Water/Garbage $75, Cable $125, Phones $300, $850 a month x 12 = $10,200
Average Vehicle is $30,000, $579 a month, x 2 (wife) + insurance $150 x 12 = $15,696
Home insurance - $2,200 a year
Average Student Loan payments $182 a month x 2 (you met your wife in school) 364 x 12 = $4,368
$192 per month is average cost of food per person in a family (seems really low) but that’s 4 x 192 x 12 = $9,216
Kids are reported to cost between $400 and $1,400 a month, you got two, your wealthy so they are spoiled, let's call it $1,200 x 2 x12 = $28,800
1 vacation a year, $1,800 per person x 4 = $7,200
Lawn Care - you live in a nice place, you give a damn = $1,500 a year
Home Care - $1,500 a year (that is on the cheap side)
Annual vehicle registration - $500
School Books / ect - $1,300



So this is all assuming you have 1 Wife, and two small kids, no teenagers which would add more cost for your stupid expensive clothing, cell phone plans, cars, car insurance and the constant "hey dad, spot me $20". This also does not take into account healthcare, life insurance, dental, eye-care ect. This also doesn't have all those other unexpected expensive, speeding tickets, new clothes, new tv, new ipod ext... and guess what.

Total $127,588

That leaves you $7,412 left over... but oh great, Democrats what to tax you an extra $10,000 a year cause your "rich". It's easy to think a lump of cash was "OMFG RICH" when you're a 16 year old broke ass living at home. I make Katrillionz more than I ever did in High school or College, yet I have less spending money then ever before because guess what, owning a home and taking care of business is god damn expensive.


To quote Pitbull, "Billion is the new Million"

Sorry but your projections are way wrong. My family when I was growing up brought in less than 100K a year, and we did all of that without sinking ourselves into massive debt. So you obviously have it wrong. Lawncare $1500?! More like $200 a year, pay your kid or your neighbors to mow it. Cable $125?! YOURE INSANE I pay for my cable and I can tell you it runs me $40 on top of my internet. Stop defending the rich.
You know what? Im done with this. Youre a fucking idiot and so are the rest of you defending the rich, and we will never see eye to eye, so why waste my time?
PEACE:love:

[Corbic]

^
http://www.swifteconomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/communist-party.gif

The exact attitude I'd expect from some kid from Eugene.

[WISH ONE]

Nowadays it seems if you have a family, house, cars, etc. and you want a decent living (especially here in SOCAL) you need to be making over 100k, and if you aren't you better hope your wife is working too.

[Corbic]

Nowadays it seems as if you have a family, house, cars, etc. and you want a decent living (especially here in SOCAL) you need to be making over 100k, and if you aren't you better hope your wife is working too.

What I don't get is this attitude people have that the "rich" should make less money, rather then they themselves should be making more money.

[Freddy]

whats the average house hold income in the USA?

[axiomatik]

I personally believe 25%, everyone pays. That's it. Layoff the IRS.


Here's a breakdown of individual tax data and what they paid from 2010:

http://cdn.financialsamurai.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/toptaxes.jpg
source: How Much Money Do The Top Income Earners Make By Percentage? | Financial Samurai (http://www.financialsamurai.com/2011/04/12/how-much-money-do-the-top-income-earners-make-percent/) (a conservative blog)

The top 1% of all income earners made, on average, $380k. Take a look at the last column, effective tax rate. They paid, on average, 23.27% in income taxes.

So, following your proposal, the very richest people in the country would see almost no change in their taxes, while every one else would have a dramatic increase in their taxes. Sounds like a great plan.

I do believe that the tax code needs to be greatly simplified. It is too complex, there are too many exemptions and special cases. People shouldn't have to take their taxes the H&R Block because they can't figure it out. But I also believe in a progressive tax. And I think that it should be more progressive than it is now. I am not calling for radical taxation, but I do think the top marginal rate could be 40% instead of 35%. I also find it pathetic when anyone suggests raising taxes on the wealthiest that they are immediately called a communist. It's childish and not even slightly true.

Fun fact. Reagan is often praised for cutting taxes. Do you know what he set the highest tax rate to? 50%. That's right, under Reagan, the wealthiest people in the country were paying 50% instead of the current 35%.

[axiomatik]

whats the average house hold income in the USA?

According to wikipedia the average household income in the US is $44,389.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States

[Corbic]

Here's a breakdown of individual tax data and what they paid from 2010:

http://cdn.financialsamurai.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/toptaxes.jpg
source: How Much Money Do The Top Income Earners Make By Percentage? | Financial Samurai (http://www.financialsamurai.com/2011/04/12/how-much-money-do-the-top-income-earners-make-percent/) (a conservative blog)

The top 1% of all income earners made, on average, $380k. Take a look at the last column, effective tax rate. They paid, on average, 23.27% in income taxes.

So, following your proposal, the very richest people in the country would see almost no change in their taxes, while every one else would have a dramatic increase in their taxes. Sounds like a great plan.


The Richest people in this country don't need SS, Medicare, Medicaid, Government Health Care, Subsidized Housing, Subsidized food, Food stamps, free schools, Student loans, Turtle Bridges, Tattoo Removal, Study of Gay Men in Miami, Subsidized Home Insurance because they live on the flood plane ext.

The Bottom 50%, you pay nothing (as they get that 2% back in their tax returns) however they are the ones receiving (and demanding) all the government spending. They are the ones needing benefits, entitlements and jobs.

They vote, and they demand more and more and more. This is why this country is in a spending crisis. You just can't keep giving away. We've had almost 60 years of entitlements and welfare and the underclass is still there. I would argue that these entitlement programs actually hurt the communities and groups more than they help.

These people need to contribute just like everyone else. They need to be part of the system, not just the screaming mob of "votes". That way the answer is not "make those rich fucks pay for it" its "wow, if we do that, that rich fuck will have to pay an extra $1000, but I'm still be out $100... fuck that"

Also, 25% and thats it. The chart you show is straight income, not SS, Medical, State, County, and City. The Government as a whole gets 25% off the top and thats it. Divide it as you please, 15 to the Feds, 13 to the state, 2 to the local?

I'd also ditch the whole deductibles. You have four kids? You should pay more, not less. After all, those kids are getting free school, busing, healthcare so forth...

[WISH ONE]

What I don't get is this attitude people have that the "rich" should make less money, rather then they themselves should be making more money.

I totally agree, that whole point of view is a huge copout.
Work hard, play hard.

[TheWolf]

What I don't get is this attitude people have that the "rich" should make less money, rather then they themselves should be making more money.

It's a product of class warfare rhetoric. Not only do the rich need to pay more taxes but they should take a pay cut because the middle class and poor don't make enough. Oh and they need to hire more people regardless of whether they need another employee and all the taxes it brings. CEO's make to much.. Business owners make to much.. shareholders make to much.. 250kers make to much.. and it trickles down as the vitriol gets more intense.

The opposite of his policies seems so ridiculous but it shows what a polar extreme he's out on. "Why doesn't the president have a "thank the rich guy day" where the bottom 50% of the population thanks the rich guy for paying for all their crap."

As the poor base expands their need for social services outpaces their contributions to pay for them. The rich are doing fine, if the poor would pay more then we wouldn't be in this mess. Property taxes are starting to show this in many counties as the municipal system can't afford to run schools even after taking out a ridiculous amount of taxes.

[imotion s14]

It's the idea of Zero-Sum Economics. That's where the idea of the "rich get richer the poor get poorer" axiom comes from. ZSE is the belief that the economic pie is fixed and that if you take more than your "fair" share it's because you deprived someone else of their share. No wealth is created.

Of course it's bullshit. 600 years ago all the wealth in the world couldn't buy you a calculator or anything we have in our modern world. The King of England had to shit in a pot and them some poor fool had to dump it out. THE KING! Now even the the poorest family has running water.

People confuse wealth with money. Wealth is measured with currency but wealth is not money. Wealth is the abundance of products. We have create more wealth in a single day than the entire productive history of man up to the industrial revolution.

[Corbic]

People confuse wealth with money. Wealth is measured with currency but wealth is not money. Wealth is the abundance of products. We have create more wealth in a single day than the entire productive history of man up to the industrial revolution.

Not to mention the poorest people in America live better than 50% of the works wealthiest people.

Your own single family Trailer with plumbing, '95 Grand Am, cricket phone, PS1, 28" TV, free TV programing, window A/C, McDonalds 3 meals a day....

Hmmm I think your living better that Somali Warlords or and many East Europeans.

[codyace]

As the poor base expands their need for social services outpaces their contributions to pay for them. The rich are doing fine, if the poor would pay more then we wouldn't be in this mess. Property taxes are starting to show this in many counties as the municipal system can't afford to run schools even after taking out a ridiculous amount of taxes.

Without a doubt I do believe if they taxed the poor appropriatly, instead of giving them so many breaks, that they'd naturally look for jobs. Contrary though, it may cause them to look into crime as well. Hard to say.

[Corbic]

Without a doubt I do believe if they taxed the poor appropriatly, instead of giving them so many breaks, that they'd naturally look for jobs. Contrary though, it may cause them to look into crime as well. Hard to say.

Well that would create law enforcement jobs...

Then again legalize drugs, tax the piss out of that cha-chinge.

It'll reduce LE + Correctional spending by 80% and bring in billions.

[bb4_96]

If we could get away from the s word we could put people reaping the benifits of public aid to work on public works. Labor costs of public works projects are fucking insane. That would cut the spending.

[Corbic]

If we could get away from the s word we could put people reaping the benifits of public aid to work on public works. Labor costs of public works projects are fucking insane. That would cut the spending.

The problem is public projects are so incompetent, so inept and such massive beurocratic nightmares that it's always cheaper to have private industry do it.

Once you create a job or program in the government, it never goes away.

[bb4_96]

The problem is public projects are so incompetent, so inept and such massive beurocratic nightmares that it's always cheaper to have private industry do it.

Once you create a job or program in the government, it never goes away.

Having to get off your ass and do something to continue your lifestyle serves a greater purpose than accomplishing something. At that point why not get a job? Where's the loss? Even if nothing gets accomplished the benifits are already paid.

I hope if a program is created to make the nation less dependent and lazy it never goes away.

[Corbic]

Having to get off your ass and do something to continue your lifestyle serves a greater purpose than accomplishing something. At that point why not get a job? Where's the loss? Even if nothing gets accomplished the benifits are already paid.

I hope if a program is created to make the nation less dependent and lazy it never goes away.

Or we just stop giving out handouts. People are still getting money for Katrina.

[bb4_96]

I didn't specify a specific type of aid

[vas570sx]

http://i1121.photobucket.com/albums/l502/vas1231/ffff.jpg

[codyace]

Then again legalize drugs, tax the piss out of that cha-chinge.

It'll reduce LE + Correctional spending by 80% and bring in billions.



I'm with you 100% on this one, our drug laws really need to be revamped...and I'm not even a user! Such resources wasted on it...


But my point remains, by taxing the poor approrpiatly, I'd venture to say that most resort to crime vs getting a job.

[S14DB]

But my point remains, by taxing the poor approrpiatly, I'd venture to say that most resort to crime vs getting a job.
Hard to tax illegal income.

[codyace]

Hard to tax illegal income.

True, which may be a helping hand in establishing a generic rate for the poor that they are forced to pay...but again, that may be impossible.