Interesting Shop Story, need input

[240_keyy]

hey all, I just thought I would post this here since the Zilvia people seem to be the most helpful people in the world. Anyway, let me give you a little background on this story.

Back in April my friend went to a respected shop that builds high horsepower Supras DSM's and 240s, they even have their own turbo kit for each application with a pimpy tubular manifold, external wastegate and T3/T04e turbo. My friend bought their turbo kit for his SR'd 240 because his little bottom mount T3 just wasn't cutting it any more. After a very large amount of money changed hands between him and the shop, the turbo kit is installed and tuned and puts down a respectable 326rwhp and 290tq at 15psi of boost. Everything is running like a champ.

Flash forward to the first weekend in September... My friend gets tired of his "crappy" SDS standalone system so he goes back to the shop that did his turbo kit and talks to them about installing a Haltec E6K (or whatever the letters are) They agree on a large amount of money and he is told that the car will be ready to go in two weeks. He drops off the car and calls them back in two weeks, they say the car hasn't moved, but that it is "next on the list" and should be finished within 2 weeks. My friend is understanding and just copes.

Flash forward 1 month (a total of 1.5 months since he dropped it off) the car still has not moved, but it is next on the list and should be completed within 2 weeks. My friend is becoming agitated.

Flash forward two weeks... The car is now actually in the shop and has the haltech *mostly* installed. They tell him that it will be done within a few days. My friend is excited, but wary.

Flash forward 2 weeks... The Haltech is installed and the owners of the shop take the car around the block for a shakedown run, they say it is running great and will be ready to dyno within a day or two and he should have the car back within 1 week.

Flash forward 1 week (last tuesday)... They get the car up on the dyno and start doing some pulls. They are at 14* timing, 14psi of boost and are running really "safe" so to speak, the car is making roughly 300hp and the BOOM!!!!!! the motor blows up. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? They give my friend a call and tell him "oops we blew your car on the dyno, sorry about that" My friend is displeased.

Flash forward to yesterday... My friend calls the shop in the morning and speaks to one of the owners. He tells the owner that he is coming up to talk to him about what they can do to get the car running again, and to find out what the shop is willing to do. My friend then gets in his Maxima and drives to Dallas to talk to the owners. He gets to the shop and the owners are gone, they had to go do something or something, one of the regular workers says. My friend goes into the shop to look at the car and takes out the plugs, looks into the #1 cylinder and can see the friking crank!! the piston is totally gone, the walls are scored all to sh*t and the motor is essentially toast. My friend talks to one of the people at the shop that actually knows what is going on and asks him if the shop is willing to compensate some of the labor costs (or any costs for that matter)and is pretty much told that "the car was in that condition when you brought it to us, and we didn't break it. Well obviously we broke it on the dyno, but it was because of a preexisting condition in the motor" They then make him pay for the install of the haltech (which my friend actually agreed to, since it was actually installed) and then they CHARGE HIM FOR THE DYNO TUNING DURING WHICH THEY BLEW HIS MOTOR!!! My friend is HIGHLY displeasedwith this little fact, but has no choice but to pay. He sticks around for another hour but the owners never come back while he is there.

What do you think should be done under these circumstances? A "2 week" job turned into a 3 month nightmare, the shop is not willing to compensate any of the cost of the blown motor, they made him pay for the dyno tuning druing which they blew the motor and they pretty much told him to fsck off and get his car out of their shop. I haven't said the name of the company, but if any of you know anything, you will know what shop I am talking about. My friend also never had to sign a liability waiver, so does that make the shop even more liable?

what do yall think?

[sykikchimp]

Call the local news..

[240_keyy]

lol, I don't know if that is supposed to be funny or mean, so I will just take it as being funny :P

[DuffMan]

I dont understand why people dont just set up so you drive your car to the shop when the are actually ready to work on it.

But yeah they should at least give him free labor. Theres not much he can do though, maybe have it towed to annother shop. Can't just not pay the shop. In most states that would make the shop now OWN his car.

SR's are pretty cheap though. If you buy an incomplete motor set, and part out the accessories and whatnot on ebay of the old motor, they're well under $1000. Sounds like your friend can afford that.

And this was CTC was it not?

[nokeone]

fuck that...call the Better Business Bureau...call the news/local papers, seriously..they love trashy shit..

and fuck hiding the name of the company...look what happened in that EVO Ebay thread..he got his car...never underestimate the power of a FUCKED reputation...

i hate hearing about shit like this...there is accountability...if the car was perfect when it was taken in..then it should be so when brought out..if it blew up in their possesion, on their dyno, then it is their fault...unless they can show exactly what happened and that it was a preexisting problem which cause the motor to blow under the added stress...

personally i would NOT drop this...file a law suit..anything to make their life miserable..they may be willing to settle and negotiate rather then get dragged into a legal battle..regardless of the winner it will cost them time and money..most companies would rather settle..especially if it is somethin like labor...

also, please tell me he paid for this with a credit card or somethin?..NOT CASH!!!..if he did then he should call his CC company and cancel those charges as fraudulent..say he never authorized them as the work was never completed...get the CC fraud department in on it..

if you do all this..the company will cough up somethin...i know i would..

[240_keyy]

Yes, the shop is CTC in Dallas.

The guy paid with cash :-/

the motor WAS NOT under added stress, in fact, it was under LESS stress than it was when he had it previously running with the SDS system

I believe he talked to a lawyer today, but I have not talked to him, I will keep you guys updated on his situation.

He actually has a spare SR with forged rods and pistons and a blown head gasket sitting in his garage, but he is still fookin pissed that they blew his motor and refuse to do anything about it.

[Bill Roberts]

Simple shit.

The shop is under no obligation to compensate. Motors "let go"
\

Unless he signed an agreement with the shop that he would receive his car in "at least" the same condition as they received it, then the shop had a stroke of bad luck and the owner is at total risk.

I also question this "friend" to give them freedom with a JDM engine, and since the shop itself took so much time, who is to say, odometer statement, they were not ragging the shit out of the car for a bunch of weeks prior to blown engine?

I agree ...why was the car not given an immediate appointment, to work on? no one I know would leave a car to sit...they would bring it in once work commences and be their and watch. If the shop does not afford said luxury, go to another shop.

The only rat I smell is the owners inability to do the right thing and not use the old phrase, buyer beware. He put himself into a non controllable situation. If the shop does anything at all in his favor, he will be quite lucky, indeed.

Customers must be informed of the consequences..always. this is the shops liability. Who signed what? Sounds like a clusterfuck of immature, unprofessional folks.

I am not taking up for the shop...I am saying, business without responsability is the culpret. I would never let a deal like that go down. Hopefully the owner will be smarter next time.

It is lose/lose for everyone.

Too bad. The shop is really not liable for a blown engine...it would have blown anyway...unless you do an odometer check. If 300 miles were put on the car, I can gurantee...I can blow ANY engine in 300 miles...I know how to do it...and this keeps mine from being blown.


Good luck...whoever the owner is...Maybe it is you? Maybe not.

Some dumassity was involved in this transaction, that is certain.


This is how this shit goes down legally. You need paper to cover thy ass. Sounds very haphazard and free will. The customer fucked themselves. No consumer protection without contractional information, signed, dated, and notorized. Customer looses.

Strike 3, game over, until next time.

Sorry, I call them as I see them, I have no car shop...but I am an old guy that knows what to do in a situation...and cover my ass.

[mbmbmb23]

You may try talking to a lawyer just incase.







-m

[blu808]

Noah is right with this one. Call the bbb and the news. Screw his reputation then take it for ransom, Call the shop and tell them to check out the threads. Have all your friends call and yell at them, Post up on the mr2, supra, 300zx, 240sx, and any other boards you can.
Any ems should only take 1-2 days to install by a blind dog, a good shop could do it in 1-4 hours. depending on wiring,
Also the motor to reach that condition would have taken more than one dyno run, maybe they ran his car without oil. Maybe they hooked up the ignition incorrectly and detonated, at any rate, it would have taken a bunch of detonating, and weird sounds to put holes in the piston, unless it dropped a valve, or threw a rod. but we all know those would only be caused by detonation (improper timing, not enough fuel pressure, maybe they didnt set the injectors up on the ems befor they ran it and it leaned out. ) or improper motor build, or leaning out the motor, or having no oil. Also they should always do a base line run on a ems system on the dydno, THey should start at stock boost, and run it fairly rich, with the ignition retarded, then start leaning it out and advancing the timing, until it is stoich.

then they can start turning things up.

Call the shop and ask them how they did the whole process. Play stupid and just let them tell you whatever they want. Record the call to use in court later. Most shops make you sign a receipt saying they are not responsible for anything but if you can proove them neglegent then you may have a chance.

Sorry about the spelling i am typing really fast.

Later Luke.

Also just for shits and giggles call the IRS and tell them you bought somthing from their shop and they didnt charge you tax.
They will be audeted so fast they wont know what hit them.
:axe:

[240_keyy]

just to clear some stuff up, this is not my car, it is a really close friend of mine. My SR 240 is sitting cozy and warm in my driveway (the wife's honda gets the garage spot, go figure)

Anyway, this motor is not built or anything, it was completely stock internally but it had CTC's turbo kit, an SDS system, 750cc injectors, and all the supporting mods necessary to make this stuff work. supposedly the only change they made to the setup was that they installed the Haltech and an MSD ignition box and removed the SDS system and SDS coilpacks.

The motor should not have blown up, it was making less power than it was previously and the same shop tuned the car back in april when the turbo kit was installed. The last time they did the tuning, everything turned out fine and they did over 20 pulls to get it where it was. He put a good bit of miles on over the summer and got some mid 12 second timeslips, so the car was running fantastically. He just decided to get rid of the SDS system because his version didn't have data logging ability and it was hard to tune, and the Haltec was much better for him.

I don't know what happened, but I agree with what bill said. Probably he is fscked, but we will see...

[X-Iceman]

This is sad to hear. But I got to agree, just bad business practices by both parties. 3months to get a car back... thats horrible. even if you have another car, still horrible. i would start crackin skulls :hammer:

[rednerd]

Holes don't magically appear in the tops of pistons. That had to be some pretty hardcore detonation!!! And it sounds to me like the shop fucked up big time (unless the engine just happened to drop a valve).

More than likely it wasn't quite running right, and the shop tried to push it out the door and onto the dyno hoping for some magic cure. Hopefully the figure it out before engine #2 goes bye bye...

I think we need to give the good shops like Enjuku more credit :)

[nokeone]

Originally posted by blu808
Noah is right with this one. Call the bbb and the news. Screw his reputation then take it for ransom, Call the shop and tell them to check out the threads. Have all your friends call and yell at them, Post up on the mr2, supra, 300zx, 240sx, and any other boards you can.
Any ems should only take 1-2 days to install by a blind dog, a good shop could do it in 1-4 hours. depending on wiring,
Also the motor to reach that condition would have taken more than one dyno run, maybe they ran his car without oil. Maybe they hooked up the ignition incorrectly and detonated, at any rate, it would have taken a bunch of detonating, and weird sounds to put holes in the piston, unless it dropped a valve, or threw a rod. but we all know those would only be caused by detonation (improper timing, not enough fuel pressure, maybe they didnt set the injectors up on the ems befor they ran it and it leaned out. ) or improper motor build, or leaning out the motor, or having no oil. Also they should always do a base line run on a ems system on the dydno, THey should start at stock boost, and run it fairly rich, with the ignition retarded, then start leaning it out and advancing the timing, until it is stoich.

then they can start turning things up.

Call the shop and ask them how they did the whole process. Play stupid and just let them tell you whatever they want. Record the call to use in court later. Most shops make you sign a receipt saying they are not responsible for anything but if you can proove them neglegent then you may have a chance.

Sorry about the spelling i am typing really fast.

Later Luke.

Also just for shits and giggles call the IRS and tell them you bought somthing from their shop and they didnt charge you tax.
They will be audeted so fast they wont know what hit them.
:axe:

werd to everything...

except: recordings of phone calls are not admissible in court unless the party being recorded is notified of such before the conversation takes place...

[matlock]

Your friend has some pretty amazing self control though.....If I went there and they did to me what they did to him I would not have just left haha.....Well I am kinda interested in what is happening now you should keep us all posted...I would say your best bet is to take them to court or for him to maybe just let the owner know that there will be legal actions taken if they do not try to work some sort of deal out. just my opinion

[sykikchimp]

Originally posted by 240_keyy
lol, I don't know if that is supposed to be funny or mean, so I will just take it as being funny :P

neither, I was quite serious. Call the news, and tell them about it.. They will get involved, and call them, and they will do a segment on the company and how they are F*in you.. bad PR.

Just a word of advice.. stay professional and unbiased. It's when you get all emotional about it that you overlook the details, and get really frustrated. Look at both sides yourself, and determine where the problem lies. Take responsibility for your own faults, and make them take responsibility for theres. No more, no less.

I agree with Bill here. I don't think your friend has much of a chance of getting them to set things straight unless he gets the news involved, or he gets a lawyer. The news is a lot cheaper. ;)

[rrobe99999]

I don't see how there can be any legal recourse for blowing up an illegal engine. Kinda like getting ripped off on a drug deal. It sucks that that happened. A smear campaign against that shop seems like a good way to get revenge, but revenge is just a waste of energy and won't fix the problem.

[240_keyy]

Originally posted by rednerd
Holes don't magically appear in the tops of pistons.

It is not so much that there is hole in the top of the piston as it is the fact that there IS NO PISTON in number one. The piston basically shattered and the rod knocked around pretty good in the cylinder and fuxored the block.

Hella detonation? Yes

Do I think it is the shop's fault? Mostly yes, but we will have to see what the deal is when he gets the car back next week.

I am unbiased pretty much, I can see why the shop doesn't want to pay, but I can also see why my friend thinks they should. I think he would have felt a lot better about it if they hadn't treated him like dirt when he came up there and if they would have absorbed the cost of the dyno tuning, since he is obviously going to have to have it retuned in the future.

I will know more as soon as I talk to him later today.

[weirdstyles.net]

Originally posted by rrobe99999
I don't see how there can be any legal recourse for blowing up an illegal engine. Kinda like getting ripped off on a drug deal. It sucks that that happened. A smear campaign against that shop seems like a good way to get revenge, but revenge is just a waste of energy and won't fix the problem.

incorrect. The motor is NOT illegal in the US. Using the motor on the streets is illegal.

Learn first, speak second.

No one here, that I know of, is a lawyer. The only person to help you here would be a lawyer and a reputable engine shop to tell you EXACTLY what the "f" happend.

Also, like so and so said, recording a conversation is inadmissable in a court of law unless the other party is notified that the converstaion is being recorded. Kind of like the Miranda Rights...

You/Friend probably fux0rd

[nokeone]

Originally posted by weirdstyles.net
No one here, that I know of, is a lawyer. The only person to help you here would be a lawyer and a reputable engine shop to tell you EXACTLY what the "f" happend....

:sadwavey: ..lol..well, junior associate...:-/

Originally posted by weirdstyles.net
Also, like so and so said, recording a conversation is inadmissable in a court of law unless the other party is notified that the converstaion is being recorded. Kind of like the Miranda Rights...

so and so = nokeone..thanks though..:p

[240silvia]

This is what you do:

Slap your friend for paying all that money.

This is what your friend should do:

Call the news so no one else will go there and spend their money on crap! And get a lawyer and sue for all expenses lost! including labor that he paid.

[rrobe99999]

Originally posted by weirdstyles.net
incorrect. The motor is NOT illegal in the US. Using the motor on the streets is illegal.

Learn first, speak second.

No one here, that I know of, is a lawyer. The only person to help you here would be a lawyer and a reputable engine shop to tell you EXACTLY what the "f" happend.

Also, like so and so said, recording a conversation is inadmissable in a court of law unless the other party is notified that the converstaion is being recorded. Kind of like the Miranda Rights...

You/Friend probably fux0rd

Good point. I assumed this was a street car, because of the unprofessional behavior of the shop. I still don't think there would be any legal recourse for blowing up a motor in a race car.

I'm not a lawer, I just like to potray one on message boards.

[weirdstyles.net]

Originally posted by nokeone
:sadwavey: ..lol..well, junior associate...:-/



so and so = nokeone..thanks though..:p


thought that was you...too lazy to look... Mr. Junior Ass.

very kewl.


and rrobe... didnt mean to come off dick headish. It beleive it is a street machine... but having the motor is not illegal. Using the vehicle with that motor on public streets, however, is.

Im sure nokeone can recite the laws and by-laws and in-laws for us...

[TRUENOCOUPE]

First... Find out what really happen to the motor first...

Then go from there.

[nokeone]

Originally posted by weirdstyles.net


Im sure nokeone can recite the laws and by-laws and in-laws for us...

hahah..fuck in-laws...all they ever do is bitch at you about this and this and that and that..:p..thank goodness i'm not married..

but yeah, you're correct..the fact that the motor is legal or not has nothing to do with the situation here...it's irrelevant..there was no citation on a public road or anything like that...what happend was on private property and who's to say what the car is used for (off-road racing or whatever)..really doesn't matter...

as far as the legal recourse (as stated by rrobe99999) when your race motor is blown up...i don't see how this differs from nissan blowing up your motor while installing new pistons and having them seat wrong or somethin...they fucked up...they blew the motor while they were tuning it...like i said before, if the shop can show that the motor had a predisposed fault to it which caused it to blow then by all means they are not responsible for it..but more then likely it was THEIR faulty tuning, messed up air fuel ratios, or whatever, which caused it to blow...

in either case i, me, myself, personally, (can't speak for anyone else) would seek legal action against them...i'd subpoena the dyno records..i'd look at the data from when it ran to when it blew..i'd check the ratios..basically find out WHY it happened...

then go from there..

my .02

[nokeone]

Originally posted by TRUENOCOUPE
First... Find out what really happen to the motor first...

Then go from there.

haha...now it looks like i stole your closing argument..:p

[Nolaws4evr]

I have to agree completely with nokeone. i work in service at a motorcycle dealership and the manager would never let anything that was running when it came in leave while not working. it just isnt good business and he understands that. if your not willing to or cant afford legal action, by all means let everyone know what kind of reputation that shop deserves. the best way to reach alot of people???? television my friend, and of course the internet. I believe all of this has been said before so just consider me another guy backin you guys up.

[stretch240sx]

i agree with nokone.... find all the info...

its like lending a friend something, he dicks around with it and in the process breaks it... it is his fault he broke it. it was in his possesion... possesion is 9/10ths of the law... lol, i dunno that just jokin...

[transient]

I'd just like to reiterate the need to stay cool in this situation. (although from previous information it doesn't seem like your friend would have a problem staying cool)

[240_keyy]

***UPDATE***

Ok if you read above you can see exactly what was going on with this deal. I have a new twist to the story so sit back and relax and get ready for this...

Ok so CTC vehemently denies any wrongdoing in this whole issue and claims that it was a problem inherent in the system, most likely a faulty injector.

SO, my friend sends off all his injectors to be flow rate tested and cleaned at a reputable shop out of state. The results come back absolutely perfect. All of the injectors were clean and the flow rate difference between all of them was marginal, less than 1% (3% is the max safe limit of difference)

This got us thinking as to how in the hell CTC could have blown the motor, especially since they blew piston #2. This is where a little background is necessary...

For the past few years my friend has been running an SDS standalone system and the whole reason he took the car to CTC was so they could install a Haltec system for him because he wanted the datalogging capabiliteis. For those of you that know, the SDS system uses a series of magnets mounted on the crank pulley to get the timing information. This totally eleminates the need for a CAS. Because my friend originally got a crap motor, it came with a broken CAS, so he had a block off plate over the whole to keep it from spewing oil everywhere. Anyway, the seal wasn't exactly perfect on his block off plate and it started leaking so a few months ago, my friend got a CAS from a friend of his and just stuck it in there to block off the hole and stop it from leaking. Note HE JUST STUCK IT IN THERE!!! There was no need to set the timing because the SDS system does not use the CAS signal...

Flash forward to when CTC starts jacking with the car. They install the haltec and all the sensors, they run new wires to the CAS and fire up the car. I am not sure how they did it, but they somehow managed to "set" the timing without ever removing and reinstalling the CAS so that it was lined up to the correct links on the chain. How did they do that? Is that even possible? The haltec then went nuts, ran crazy amounts of timing and blew the motor. Does this sound feasible to you?

Does this still sound like a "faulty injector" problem to you guys?

[DRFT]

no

[weirdstyles.net]

Originally posted by 240_keyy
...so they could install a Haltec system for him because he wanted the datalogging capabiliteis...

Wouldnt the Haltec give you some numbers for its last run?

[kidinthehall]

no, it only datalogs when you tell it to.

[weirdstyles.net]

oh...well damn.

Any chance they were logging?

(doub it)

[kidinthehall]

wouldnt matter anyway, datalog can be deleted in a second. same goes with timing changes etc etc.

real easy to put 25 degrees of timing in it on the dyno and pop something then put 12 degrees in it and say, hey look see we were only running 12 degrees.

The owner of this car is pretty much screwed from a monetary standpoint as far as i can see. unless the shop decides to help him out as a show of good faith. It is possible for motors to just "let go" so to speak from prior damage...........i work at a dyno, and have seen some strange things happen. But if that shop has pretty much been the ones doing the work on the car........ not to mention that given what was done to the car, the numbers didnt look to impressive, so that might say something as far as their tuning goes.

at any rate, i dont have any experience with them, so theres no point in me taking shots at em.

[ridebmx]

sucks that it happened, but thats why i wouldnt trust anyone working on my car, unless i was there watching them through every step. And the only time i would ever bring my car in to get something down is either if i went stand alone, or needed an alignment, i have all the knowlegde, tools, and ambition to do everything else. but, and he should never let his car sit there that long if they were not working on it, just my .02 cents. basicly SHIT HAPPENS. take for example, i used to have a 78 camaro, 350, 4 speed munice. just had both heads done, sold the car, car ran fine. 2 days later the kid comes back bitching its running like shit, i go take a look, he spun a bearing, scored the shit out of the crank, so the motor needed a rebuild. the kid being my friend i took the loss, payed most of the money for rebuilding it, he bought some of the other parts to upgrade on the rebuild, and i know when i car left my possiesion in ran like a champ, but you never can tell when a motor is gonna let go. Look at it from the shops point of few especially if they did nothing wrong, would you want to lose money? now if they totally trashed on it, then yes i believe they should pay, but like it has been said, get all the infomation first, then let us tell you our opinion, so there isnt so many "what ifs", and without evidence of the shops wrong doing, i dont believe u will get shit in court

[stretch240sx]

Originally posted by ridebmx
now if they totally trashed on it, then yes i believe they should pay,

what shop, after blowing your motor, is gonna admit that they beat the hell out of it and what not, i can guarantee that unless its a very cool shop, that they are gonna say what thye have said and are gonna stick to their guns...

[rednerd]

If I only had a dime for every time I heard someone say you don't have to set static timing on computer controlled cars... dumb fcks.

Did your friend get a new engine out of them?

[ridebmx]

Originally posted by stretch240sx
what shop, after blowing your motor, is gonna admit that they beat the hell out of it and what not, i can guarantee that unless its a very cool shop, that they are gonna say what thye have said and are gonna stick to their guns...

if u would have read my post, you would have seen that it would be best to gather all the evidence, and then relay all information to the board for a better opinion on what should be done, and i believe most shops would fess up if there was indeed evidence, and or just didnt want the bad reputation. Sometimes you just have to take it in the butt to make the customer happy, like i stated I ended up losing money on my deal, but it was better that way in the long haul.

[240_keyy]

Originally posted by rednerd
If I only had a dime for every time I heard someone say you don't have to set static timing on computer controlled cars... dumb fcks.

Did your friend get a new engine out of them?

No they still refuse to do anything with it at all. Told him to go fsck himself basically. He is picking up a longblock from a dude in Austin day after tomorrow, so the car should be up and running within a week or two.

BTW, he is now talking with a lawyer in the Dallas area to get the ball rolling ;)

[HiPSI]

i dunno about this shop, but every one ive been to had me sign a waiver of liability while on the dyno. if he did and can't prove some kind of major neglect by the shop he's fsucked

[Muzzy]

sound like 50/50 blame he jus threw the CAS in to plug it up....not set.

they shop probobly assuming the timing was set or forgetting to check it jus threw the system in and dynoed it.

well...i guess it like 90/10 (shop/owner) if they had bothered to check the timing this may have not happened.

they ought to compensate for somethin. it did happen in there shop after all.
if it was making more power on SDS then Haltech it should have not blown up if everything was correct.

its in the ignition cuz pistons dont usually jus explode. a rod will go before a piston in most normal case.

and the SDS and haltech mess with the timing and ignnition. so between the swithch somethin wasn not done right or set right. i know its not the motor.