Maeda's Turbo Install Write Up of Madness!

[Maeda]

Ok so I began writing my
"How to turbocharge a stock KA24DE with no mechanical experience"
write up...

Heres a link...

1/4 done.

I wrote it all off the top of my head so I KNOW theres got to be some goofy bits that just plain arn't true, so if you spot one tell me.

LINKAGE (http://maeda.siliconhosting.com/turbo.htm)

[Joel 180]

Just a little thing, not really an error,
you have a table in phase 1 that shows 'the right turbo for the job'. You said a T25, T28 or small T3 is good for 175-210 on 5-6 psi. While not incorrect, its not really correct either. The T25 is fine, but the T28 and T3 dont really come into their efficentcy range until about 10-12psi. So you can actually run these turbos at higher boost to achieve more HP without having to go to a bigger turbo - especially if you go for a ball bearing version. But I certainly appreciate you being conservative in your figures, its a refreshing change from the 'a KA can do 500hp on stock internals' we see all the time.

Top article!

[Bill Roberts]

Nice start!

How the hell this post get 2 million views already???

[nocomedown]

Originally posted by Bill Roberts
Nice start!

How the hell this post get 2 million views already???
i was just wondering the same thing...:confused:

[orion::S14]

I would NEVER put a T25 or T28 on a KA, but to be accurate:

Originally posted by Joel 180
You said a T25, T28 or small T3 is good for 175-210 on 5-6 psi. While not incorrect, its not really correct either. The T25 is fine, but the T28 and T3 dont really come into their efficentcy range until about 10-12psi...

If you look at the compressor maps, at 6psi:

With the T25, you're in the 60% range at 2500rpm
With the T3, you're already in the 70% range by 2500.

With the T25, you hang out in the 68% range and then the MAX of 70% until 4500...where the T3 is in the 74% range the whole time.

By redline the T25 is at 60% again, and the T3 is hovering on the edge of the map at 65%.

And that's at 6psi - The T25 SUCKS comapared to the T3, no matter the boost.

So if we're shooting for "correct"...T25 and 28 suck for a KA, and T3 is pretty decent for anywhere from 4-14psi.

Check out an overlayed (T25 and T3 - Both 60 trim) compressor map here:

http://apps.freshalloy.com/albums/AsadMisc/abr.jpg

Later - Brian

[Maeda]

Originally posted by Bill Roberts
Nice start!

How the hell this post get 2 million views already???

I may need to find a new place to host all this stuff then....
As i'm getting the webspace I have currently as a favor...

[SR240DET]

what if your looking for somthing around the 200hp - 220hp area t25 should be good right? with all the fuel mods.. blah blah blah.....

[kkw4p]

You might not even need fuel mods for 220 rwhp. FMIC, Intake, Exhaust w/ test pipe & some basics should get you there on a t25.

[SR240DET]

that makes me feel better =) appreciate it... ( looks like i still need to do some more research)

hey..your like an hour and a half to two hours away from me kkw4p

[kkw4p]

I'll PM you when I do my swap, if you're free you can come help/watch.

[GTGuy06]

Originally posted by Bill Roberts
Nice start!

How the hell this post get 2 million views already???

This is confusing me, only 9 Replys yet over 2 million views. :confused: I wonder if someone is messing with the numbers somehow?

[dvdevo]

haha 2 million views :eek:

[orion::S14]

Originally posted by SR240DET
what if your looking for somthing around the 200hp - 220hp area t25 should be good right? with all the fuel mods..


Originally posted by kkw4p
You might not even need fuel mods for 220 rwhp. FMIC, Intake, Exhaust w/ test pipe & some basics should get you there on a t25.

AAhhhhhhhh!!!! No, no, no.

First, the stock 270cc injectors will be maxed by ~195rwhp.

(25.7*4*1)/.45 = 228 crank HP max, so lose 15%, and you get 194 - And thats at 100% duty cylce with a GENEROUS .45 BSFC for turbo)

Secondly, a T25 is a bad match for a KA. Period.

The exhaust housing is *tiny* for a 2.4, the compressor is quite inefficient, you may get surge under spool up - All the big things to consider point to NO.

Please, don't think you can make it work - The numbers don't lie...

I'm just trying to help you out, and doing the math to prove it. Please, save yourself the time and money and get a proper turbo. Don't even attempt it if you can't do it right...

Later - Brian

[AceInHole]

Originally posted by orion::S14
Secondly, a T25 is a bad match for a KA. Period.

The exhaust housing is *tiny* for a 2.4, the compressor is quite inefficient, you may get surge under spool up - All the big things to consider point to NO.

Please, don't think you can make it work - The numbers don't lie...

I'm just trying to help you out, and doing the math to prove it. Please, save yourself the time and money and get a proper turbo. Don't even attempt it if you can't do it right...

Later - Brian
I dunno... my turbo is supposedly similar to a T25... although the exhaust housing is a TD05 which might be comparable to a T3. The compressor wheel is TINY though. I've been getting away with 10psi with it.
The thought process behind it: take an inefficient turbo, make up for it with a very efficient intercooler.

Just to put it in perspective, some research says a TD05-12A (i have 12B housings) does 320 cfm max. A T25 does like 405 max.

[MyFirst240SX]

Nice website man, i look forward to see how your project is going to turn out

[orion::S14]

Originally posted by AceInHole

1) The thought process behind it: take an inefficient turbo, make up for it with a very efficient intercooler.

2) Just to put it in perspective, some research says a TD05-12A (i have 12B housings) does 320 cfm max. A T25 does like 405 max.

1) That's not a bad theory, but if you could do it over, would you chose a more appropriately matched compressor, like the ever-popular T3?

2) Wow. I found a page (http://www.stealth316.com/2-turboguide.htm) that lists the TD05H-14B as flowing a 'practical' maximum of 385 CFM - On a KA, that's only ~5500rpm assuming 90% VE and 10psi. If yours is smaller...sh!t. That suckers spinning FAST...and spitting out some hot air.

Anyway, I wouldn't reccomend such tiny turbos - Although they may work, for the same $$$ or less you hcan have a properly sized one, and a little room to grow.

Later - Brian

[SR240DET]

you guys are kick ass.... im gonna have to do some more research then... ok.. so i dont want a t25.. im only wanting 200hp or so.. anything to get a lil more tq.. im no drag racer btw... thanks orion::S14 and AceInHole

btw nice page maeda.. i like the layout..

[MyFirst240SX]

Mayber as you go along you could include some prices and sources for some of the parts if you go time.

[Kreator]

Ok is my computer on drugs or does this thread really have 2048052 views?

[Yoshi]

Originally posted by Kreator
Ok is my computer on drugs or does this thread really have 2048052 views?

I noticed that too... who's been abusing their mod privys? hahaha
:fruit:

[AceInHole]

Originally posted by orion::S14
1) That's not a bad theory, but if you could do it over, would you chose a more appropriately matched compressor, like the ever-popular T3?
yeah. turbine heats up air all it wants, and the IC brings temps back down. as long as a larger volume of air is being pushed, even if it's hotter, the IC will make up for it. haven't heat soaked the IC, ever, and am running 10psi (read at the intake plenum) currently.
FWIW: my setup at 7.5psi was almost dead even with a T4 at 8psi. But, he was at a disadvantage running a JWT ECU...

i've been wanting to try out a T3 just to see what it feels like. i've been trying to get a 14B to drop in for the longest time, since it'll swap into the turbine housing I have now, just replacing the oil lines and a V-band clamp.

2) Wow. I found a page (http://www.stealth316.com/2-turboguide.htm) that lists the TD05H-14B as flowing a 'practical' maximum of 385 CFM - On a KA, that's only ~5500rpm assuming 90% VE and 10psi. If yours is smaller...sh!t. That suckers spinning FAST...and spitting out some hot air.
I think with a 14B i might actually get even quicker response. It uses the same turbine wheel and housing as my 12B, but has a larger compressor wheel. That way I'd be pushing more air per turbine rpm.

One thing is: the scroll on my 12B is larger than the 14B's I've seen, and a LOT larger than the 12A I pulled the new center section from. I believe the A/R's on my turbo are better suited to the KA, which is why I might be getting away with it a bit better. It's not exactly easy trying to find A/R's on these though. Numbers are far more common for Garret turbos.

My ideal turbo is either a GT30 or a GT28.... I'm still a long way from running one of those though. For now I'm either going to be running a 14B or a low A/R T3. I want to get the car up to 300hp after bumping fuel pressure and getting on a dyno.

Anyway, I wouldn't reccomend such tiny turbos - Although they may work, for the same $$$ or less you hcan have a properly sized one, and a little room to grow.
well, i plan on getting more power from here with cams, headwork, a new intake plenum, and a better designed exhaust manifold and downpipe. The turbo is ALWAYS active, which means virtually NO lag. I've surprised SR owners with it, even.

[orion::S14]

Originally posted by AceInHole

1) FWIW: my setup at 7.5psi was almost dead even with a T4 at 8psi. But, he was at a disadvantage running a JWT ECU...

2) One thing is: the scroll on my 12B is larger than the 14B's I've seen, and a LOT larger than the 12A I pulled the new center section from. I believe the A/R's on my turbo are better suited to the KA, which is why I might be getting away with it a bit better.
...It's not exactly easy trying to find A/R's on these though. Numbers are far more common for Garret turbos.

3) My ideal turbo is either a GT30 or a GT28.... I'm still a long way from running one of those though. For now I'm either going to be running a 14B or a low A/R T3. I want to get the car up to 300hp after bumping fuel pressure and getting on a dyno. [/B]

1) I had a similar race, but opposite ends - My T3/T4 at 6psi, non-intercooled VS a T3 with Supra MKIII FMIC at 8psi...he lost a little on each gear, but is running JWT. Hehe...Hacked MAF: 2, JWT: 0.

2) Ahhhhhhh - Sounds like the reason. 385cfm is stupid, couldn't beleive it. And I ran into the same thing you have - Flow #s are elusive for 'mitsu' stuff!!! But if your A/Rs look bigger, who knows what the flow is...do you have pics of that thing? Post links...I have a few VERY knowledgable DSM friends - I'll ask them.

3) Mmmmmmmmm...GT30. On my wish-list as well...

Later - Brian

[AceInHole]

Some old shots of my 12B:
http://www.engr.uconn.edu/~corrales/240/turbo_v2/turbo_side.JPG
http://www.engr.uconn.edu/~corrales/240/turbo_v2/turbo_in.jpg

vs.

http://www.thezcresource.com/assets/images/junkyard/Frontofturbomani......._4.jpg

Notice how the scroll is much smaller than on my turbo. Mine actually sticks out from the center section plate (both plates are the same size), and has a bulkier scroll. Hopefully that means more flow, and a larger A/R.
The the TD05-12B and a small T3 were both used on the same model/ year Volvo's, so I'm guessing they SHOULD be close....

The current centersection is from: TDO5-12A-8CM2 320 CFM

I'm thinking a small trim T3 should be a good upgrade.

[orion::S14]

Yeah...your's is quite comparable to a T3, with a tiny turbine...hehe.

I'd say go for the Z31 T3 - The firt KA-T I installed was a custom setup, JGS manifold, JWT + 370cc, and T3 - Bottom mount, and we utilized the OEM cast O2 housing for the turbo/downpipe connection - It's pretty slick...

But like yours, it's always on. ANd unlike mine, when it boosts, you don't hear the WG - Just a beautiful "pppsssssssssss" and you're off. Driving that car made me build mine the next month... :)

And the Z31's .63 A/R turbine housing should allow 300rwhp - A .48 housing, or that Saab turbo may not - They must choke it off.

Later - Brian

[MyFirst240SX]

has anyone ever used the mustang's SVO T3's before?

[JDMark]

Originally posted by MyFirst240SX
has anyone ever used the mustang's SVO T3's before?

yea im pretty sure thats is one of the T3 options, along with '85 (dont know the range of years) thunderbird, and merkurs (and Z31's ofcourse). there are alot of options when it comes to cheap T3's for our Ka's. if you guys really want to research it go on freshalloy.. SOOoo much knowledge.

[Maeda]

Yah the project is done in case you havn't been following.

School is prolonging the write up process.

Thanks for fielding my Q's Ace!

[AceInHole]

Originally posted by Maeda
Yah the project is done in case you havn't been following.

School is prolonging the write up process.

Awesome! At least tell us how the car is running!!

Can't wait to see the writeup too!

Yeah...your's is quite comparable to a T3, with a tiny turbine...hehe.
yeah. when i picked up the turbo it was next to a TD05-14B off an eclipse. I picked the Volvo unit thinking it had to be better since the scroll was so much bigger. Wasn't aware that a 12B meant a smaller compressor wheel though....

I'd say go for the Z31 T3 - The firt KA-T I installed was a custom setup, JGS manifold, JWT + 370cc, and T3 - Bottom mount, and we utilized the OEM cast O2 housing for the turbo/downpipe connection - It's pretty slick...
now just imagine that car without the JWT :p My turbo was able to hit 14psi on the highway (WG actuator got stuck against the valvecover) and not choke off. I've run the car at 12psi as well and noticed a good gain in power, so I don't think it's really choking off. With the FMIC i'm not TOO afraid of high intake temps either.

As for power ratings from turbos... isn't that also dependent on head flow, cams, static compression, etc?? I'm hoping to take something like a small T3, and combine that with some small headwork and decent cams, maybe even a new intake manifold... in hopes of reaching 300rwhp.

[Muzzy]

i have a T3 off a merkur(secret unknow source of turbos)(not on my car yet)...its stock boost was 10psi. its a .60/.48...decent?

[orion::S14]

Originally posted by AceInHole
As for power ratings from turbos... isn't that also dependent on head flow, cams, static compression, etc?? I'm hoping to take something like a small T3, and combine that with some small headwork and decent cams, maybe even a new intake manifold... in hopes of reaching 300rwhp.

That's all true...but for 300rwhp, it takes a certain amount of air. In the past, I've read that you can approximate HP based on airflow lbs/min on a compressor map...basically multiply the airflow by 10 to get approx HP.

So for 300rwhp, you'll need 30lbs/min. A T3 compressor can move that much air, but check the map (http://www.turbomustangs.com/turbotech/compmaps/t360.jpg) - It'll take 10psi to make ~250rwhp from a T3 on a KA. So add another 5psi to get to 300rwhp (assuming no diminshing returns from things like small turbine housings) and you get 15psi (~2 pressure ratio) and 30lbs/min - And you're at the edge of the map, and at 65% efficiency.

Seems do-able!

And headwork/porting will hurt that auto-x friendly powerband - I'd do it with boost, not porting. I'd rather run a little bigger turbo compressor than a crazy top end intake mani or wild cams for auto-x...

Later - Brian

[MyFirst240SX]

I just read that the SVO's turbo as a .63 A/r and a .60 comp, so that is a decent size T3 right, should be inline with a 240. I wonder is a SOHC or a DOHC KA spools a turbo better

[240Stilo]

That size T3 you're talking about was used on old 2.3L 4 cylinder fords. I'm looking at the same turbo; it should do well with our 2.4L. The DOHC would probably be spooling a turbo better than a SOHC. Both 2.4L engines but the DOHC's design makes it flow more air (which makes more power) and thus makes the turbo spool at a faster rate. How much faster you ask?.....umm I dunno:doh: