FBI Gets Caught!

[KiLLeR2001]

Does this mean the FBI is after us? : reddit.com (http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/dmh5s/does_this_mean_the_fbi_is_after_us//)

Caught Spying on Student, FBI Demands GPS Tracker Back | Threat Level | Wired.com (http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/10/fbi-tracking-device/)

UPDATE to "does this mean the FBI is after us" : reddit.com (http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/doe17/update_to_does_this_mean_the_fbi_is_after_us/)

Lol, some guy took his car into the shop and they found an FBI tracking device underneath his car! Apparently this device is expensive and once he posted online that he found it, they immediately rushed in to get it back lol..

What are your thoughts on FBI agents being able to bug your car whenever/wherever they please?

[w0nderbr3ad]

I mean its for the safety for national security but it seems like bs. Personally I think its fucked up. If I found one I'd try to flip it and score or put it on someone else's car.

[DS562]

foreal. the people that work up conspiracy theories are gonna go ape shit with this

[Brian]

sounds perfectly OK to me.

I'm more than happy to know that possible threats are being tracked. I'd rather have it that way than the alternative.

[I LUV MY S13]

An american student doesnt seem like a potential threat.

[TheWolf]

I would drive out to the middle of nowhere like on some forestry road. Then it would accidentally fall off in some cow shit. Now after they drive down this one way road in the absolute middle of nowhere to retrieve it. I'd have about 8 people waiting for them so we could have a discussion about the retrieval of it. It'd be a long walk back to town for them.

[P-Funk alot]

alot of rules and regulation go into doing things like this. if your car is bugged then you deserve it to be or someone close to you deserves it.

[ESmorz]

Not too long until CAFE makes GPS units mandatory, so they can tax you on carbon credits anyways.

Don your tin foil hats, the police state is in motion. dun dun dun

sounds perfectly OK to me.

I'm more than happy to know that possible threats are being tracked. I'd rather have it that way than the alternative.

*cliche, but applicable Ben Franklin quote*

[Nidd]

alot of rules and regulation go into doing things like this. if your car is bugged then you deserve it to be or someone close to you deserves it.

yeah, it seemed like they were following him because of the blog thing his friend did.

[Walperstyle]

I have no problem with the FBI doing this... because I'm not a paranoid internet stoner afraid of the government knowing about my dime bag of weed.

...like some people.

[Brian]

An american student doesnt seem like a potential threat.

You're joking, right?

[lflkajfj12123]

I LUV MY S13 been posting dumb shit since forever

[20 til 3]

it'll be swept under the rug within a week... if the kid thinks he'll get anyware with a lawsuit he's an idiot. The government can do whatever they want

[Wake]

I would strap it to a squirrel and then ask them for ransom.

[Wake]

An american student doesnt seem like a potential threat.

Did you even read any of this before you posted?
people keep repeating some posts so i will address the more frequently asked questions here... The device was found near the exhaust but further in, my friend's father was a muslim religious leader, it is not an ex girlfriend that placed the device on his car nor some random other employer or such. he bought the car a little under a year ago and it wasnt there for sure then.

[Flybert]

An american student doesnt seem like a potential threat.

American students can never be threats.

http://www.offdutygamers.com/wp-content/uploads/capt_63fb0831cbe0429fbcbf7ecb1877b0f2_virginia_tec h_shooting_ny128.jpg

[KiLLeR2001]

http://iconoclastradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/columbine.jpg

Do you see any threats? I do not!

[Wake]

I was waiting for that.

[TheWolf]

http://iconoclastradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/columbine.jpg

Do you see any threats? I do not!

Not with a tec-9.. that's just a jam fest waiting to happen. might have well brought a knife.

[bb4_96]

I have no problem with the FBI doing this... because I'm not a paranoid internet stoner afraid of the government knowing about my dime bag of weed.

...like some people.


haha! Indeed.

[HPKMotorsports3]

i wouldnt have given it back... i wouldve been like finders keepers... B****H lol

[kingkilburn]

I can't believe any of you are ok with this. It is the epitome of unAmerican. They don't even need a warrant to do it.


The snow ball is rolling.

[Bambi]

They wrote about this in my school newspaper. Is the FBI Stalking You? | The Diablo Dispatch (http://thediablodispatch.com/?p=270)
But who cares.

[irax]

I would of posted it for sale on craigslist wtt for a big screen tv or a nice computer

[ripnbst]

Its wrong and hell no I wouldnt give it back. That shit would be on Ebay. If they want it they can be the high bidder.

[supervenom]

The FBI can screw up just like any government agency. Nevertheless, they do mean well. Sometimes things go wrong and innocent people get hurt. Who knows why they do what they do. But, we put our safety in their hands. We trust them to keep the REAL bad guys away. Trust me, things would be worse, with-out the FBI.

[brndck]

At what point do you draw the line? Is it ok that they bug and track a few of us, claiming to be protecting us from others? Will it be ok when they want us all to wear tracking devices? When we hafta show papers every time we leave the house? One thing leads to another, and if the government has taught us anything, it's that once they get a bit of power, the only thing they want is more. I don't consider myself paranoid, just in favor of minimal govt that respects our constitution.

[supervenom]

The beauty of America is that the citizens hold the power. As ignorant as the public may be to that fact, it is a fact.

We draw the line when "the people" decide its enough. It has to be a collective movement.

However, I don't think it will get to that point. UNLESS, a "state-of-emergency" is used as a pretext.

Long Live The West.

[swingsett]

^^^^^

state of emergency would create insanity

[kingkilburn]

And through that insanity we gain clarity to what the people truly are and want they want from their government.

[axiomatik]

The thing is, this device is functionally no different than having an FBI agent sitting in a car following you around. And they have never needed a warrant to do that either. You can't really claim an expectation of privacy when you are driving around on public roads in full sight of anyone. Anyone could follow you around if they wanted, that doesn't make it illegal.

This device just makes it more convenient and cheaper for the FBI, because now they don't have to pay agents to sit in a car 24 hours a day. A technician can come into work and pull up the device's log and see everywhere you have gone. Does it present ominous undertones of Big Brother? Sure. Is it illegal? No.

This guys dad was a Muslim religious leader, and he said some stupid things online, so the FBI looked into him.

[kingkilburn]

You have a reasonable expectation of privacy when it comes to your property. They can follow you all day but they can't touch your car without a warrant.

[codyace]

The beauty of America is that the citizens hold the power. As ignorant as the public may be to that fact, it is a fact.

We draw the line when "the people" decide its enough. It has to be a collective movement.

However, I don't think it will get to that point. UNLESS, a "state-of-emergency" is used as a pretext.

Long Live The West.

The biggest issue with 'the people' taking charge, is that 90% of them have a hard time not pissing on public toilet seats, merging onto the highway, staying out of debt, and generally living without assistance. Sorry, but if the 'public' really overthrew the government, we'd undoubtedly be worse off than we are now.

[gearhead55]

The biggest issue with 'the people' taking charge, is that 90% of them have a hard time not pissing on public toilet seats, merging onto the highway, staying out of debt, and generally living without assistance. Sorry, but if the 'public' really overthrew the government, we'd undoubtedly be worse off than we are now.

Truth. A truly successful democracy is dependent on an intelligent, educated, and involved society. The majority of the US population is 0 for 3...

[handinpants]

wow if i found a tracking device on my car i would have immediately hired a lawyer and given the said surveilance equipment to my lawyerm and when the fbi comes looking for it, i would tell them its mone now and they can't have it back.

screw those guys they didn't mount it in good hiding space, you can count on me suing the fbi because my late night cheese burger and hooker cravings don't need to be followed. all those late night canyon sessions. I would sell the unit to the highest bidder on ebay because of my current financial situation, milk the fbi... if they have the money to make that kind of gadget then they have the money to buy me tires for race day:p

[codyace]

wow if i found a tracking device on my car i would have immediately hired a lawyer and given the said surveilance equipment to my lawyerm and when the fbi comes looking for it, i would tell them its mone now and they can't have it back.

screw those guys they didn't mount it in good hiding space, you can count on me suing the fbi because my late night cheese burger and hooker cravings don't need to be followed. all those late night canyon sessions. I would sell the unit to the highest bidder on ebay because of my current financial situation, milk the fbi... if they have the money to make that kind of gadget then they have the money to buy me tires for race day:p

See the thing is, they're not tracking 'joes' they're tracking 'suspects'

[kingkilburn]

They can't track any one without a warrant so fuck'em.

[codyace]

They can't track any one without a warrant so fuck'em.

Ah yes, the US legal system. Like getting a warrant takes any time or takes any persausion these days, especially with most judges being hooked up 24/7 to court house systems and networks.

So yes you are right. You are also only kidding yourself to think if getting a warrant to do this is anything special or difficult.

[BustedS13]

They can't track any one without a warrant so fuck'em.

Law enforcement officers may secretly place a GPS device on a person's car without seeking a warrant from a judge, according to a recent federal appeals court ruling in California.

Court allows agents to secretly put GPS trackers on cars - CNN (http://articles.cnn.com/2010-08-27/justice/oregon.gps.surveillance_1_gps-device-appeals-chief-judge-alex-kozinski?_s=PM:CRIME)

it's from august, but, it hasn't been made illegal since then, has it? i didn't read the thread.

[kingkilburn]

Ah yes, the US legal system. Like getting a warrant takes any time or takes any persausion these days, especially with most judges being hooked up 24/7 to court house systems and networks.

So yes you are right. You are also only kidding yourself to think if getting a warrant to do this is anything special or difficult.

It is neither of those things so it's bull shit that they don't do it.

Court allows agents to secretly put GPS trackers on cars - CNN (http://articles.cnn.com/2010-08-27/justice/oregon.gps.surveillance_1_gps-device-appeals-chief-judge-alex-kozinski?_s=PM:CRIME)

it's from august, but, it hasn't been made illegal since then, has it? i didn't read the thread.

I'm aware of that and it is disgusting.



The reason they have allowed this is because they would never be able to secure a warrant for the bullshit they are tracking people for.

[axiomatik]

Actually, they would have no trouble getting a warrant. Like I said, putting the tracking device on a car is no different than following you in an unmarked car, and they don't need a warrant for that either.

Now, if they entered your vehicle, and rummaged around in your glovebox while attaching the tracking device, that would require a warrant. But simply tracking the location of your car is not a breach of privacy, you are driving it out in the open on public roads.

[codyace]

The reason they have allowed this is because they would never be able to secure a warrant for the bullshit they are tracking people for.

As I said above, the Feds or any gov't entity would really have 'zero' issue getting a warrant in these situations.

As I said above, you're only kidding yourself for thinking it's a 'big deal' to get a judge to grant a warrant.

Remember, it's not a 'right' to drive your car, especially on federally owned land.


I can understand how you think it's disgusting and wrong...I don't think anyone can say that 'love it'...BUT I'm also a strong believer in the fact that I think the GOVT should be able to go above and beyond at times to protect everyone. I'd rather than be proactive and upset a few people, than sit back and let a potential disaster happen, and have tens/hundreds/thousands of people upset/hurt/killed.

Our world is changing; trying to adapt some 'old world' type laws to whats going on today simply just do not work. I love our freedom...(oxymoron in 3...2....1...) but I don't care if I'm tracked.

[ThatGuy]

food for thought:

For everyone screaming "Sue the Feds" and such...

Have you tracked down every company that has put a flyer on your windshield, and attempted to sue them? After all, they attached something to your vehicle, in your absence, without your consent. I mean, only cops are allowed to leave tickets on your windshield, right?

They didn't put a bomb on his car.
They didn't put a listening device in the cockpit.
They simply put a tracking beacon on it, to keep track of where he was going.

In this ever changing world, we have to be more careful about what we ignore.
We have ignored things in the past, that have come back to haunt us.
Evidently this gentleman has done something in the past to be put on the "do not ignore" list.


Now, YES, all you law abiding citizens have every right to be upset if you did nothing wrong and something like this happened to you. But I don't believe that is the case here. There is more to this story than what "Reddit" or "Wired" are getting.

This seems perfectly legal and just.

[kingkilburn]

Freedom vs. Security: A False Choice

by Rep. Ron Paul, MD
by Rep. Ron Paul, MD

In recent days administration officials have warned the nation about possible terrorist attacks, subjecting us once again to color-coded threat charts and puzzling admonitions to go about our lives as usual. The message is clear: grave danger surrounds us, but ordinary citizens should do nothing and trust the government take care of it.

But the obvious lesson of September 11th is that government cannot protect us. Even with trillions of tax dollars spent on “defense,” hijacked planes flew unchallenged over our skies and attacked national symbols of business and government. Yet now we're told to put even more faith into the same bureaucracies that failed us so miserably in the past? Self-reliance and self-defense are American virtues; trembling reliance on the illusion of government-provided security is not.

It's easy for elected officials in Washington to tell Americans that government will do whatever it takes to defeat terrorism, but it's your freedom and your tax dollars at stake — not theirs. The history of the 20th century demonstrates that the Constitution is violated most egregiously during times of crisis. Many of our worst unconstitutional agencies and programs began during the two world wars and the Depression, when the public was anxious and willing to view government as a savior and protector. Ironically, the Constitution itself was conceived in a time of great crisis. The founders intended to place inviolable restrictions on what the federal government could do even in times of great distress. America must guard against current calls for government to violate the Constitution — meaning break the law — in the name of law enforcement.

The misnamed Patriot Act, presented to the public as an anti-terrorism measure, actually focuses on American citizens rather than foreign terrorists. For example, the definition of "terrorism" for federal criminal purposes has been greatly expanded; future administrations may consider you a terrorist if you belong to a pro-gun group, a citizen militia, or a pro-life organization. Legitimate protest against the government could place you (and tens of thousands of other Americans) under federal surveillance. Similarly, your Internet use can be monitored without your knowledge, and your Internet provider can be forced to hand over user information to law enforcement without a warrant or subpoena.

The biggest problem with these new law enforcement powers is that they bear little relationship to fighting terrorism. Surveillance powers are greatly expanded, while checks and balances on government are greatly reduced. Most of the provisions have been sought after by domestic law enforcement agencies for years, not to fight terrorism, but rather to increase their police power over the American people. The federal government has made no showing that it failed to detect or prevent the September 11th attacks because of the civil liberties that will be compromised by this new legislation.

America was founded by men who understood that the threat of domestic tyranny is as great as any threat from abroad. If we want to be worthy of their legacy, we must resist the rush toward ever-increasing state control of our society. Otherwise, our own government will become a greater threat to our freedoms than any foreign terrorist.

June 2, 2004

Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.



Have fun with your security. I'll be keeping my freedom at ALL costs.

[singlecamslam]

oh man, my friend was helping out a drug dealer (he didnt know he was a drug dealer) lifted up his car and saw that thing there. Haha, i'm all for it

[zylvia213]

I honestly dont think this is bad at all... who knows for how long they been doing this to people and know that someone finds it they make it into a big deal. No one is being hurt by this. Im pretty sure theyve caught many people doing some illegal shit by tracking them this way.

[axiomatik]

Have fun with your security. I'll be keeping my freedom at ALL costs.

I oppose many parts of the Patriot Act. I especially find it abhorrent that it allows law enforcement to listen in on the phone conversations of American Citizens without a warrant, an activity that has always required a warrant in the past, and it violates a citizen's expectation of privacy.

But again, following you around and seeing where you drive has never been an activity that has required a warrant. It is not a search nor a seizure. It can't be considered a breach of privacy, because, as I mentioned before, you are driving on public roads in full sight of anyone else.

Please point to where in the Bill of Rights this activity would be prohibited.

[kingkilburn]

They can't attach a device to my car with out my knowledge or a warrant. In the past a warrant would never be given for this with out just cause. It's the same as them not being able to install listening devices on your house.

We have a reasonable expectation of privacy upheld by more than two centuries of legal precedent and legislative decisions.

The lack of a right to privacy is one of the major shortfalls of our constitution.

EDIT
Please point to where in the Bill of Rights this activity would be prohibited.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and Warrants shall not be issued, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

All the feds have done is removed the need for a warrant.

[ThatGuy]

But NOTHING has been searched.

All they are doing is tracking his whereabouts.

I agree that they should not ever be allowed to search your possessions, or tap your phone, or install a listening device of any kind, without a warrant.

This is not a listening device though, it is a GPS tracker. The same thing Hulk Hogan installed in his daughters car. The same thing that is being installed on many phones these days to allow parents to keep track of their children.

How is this a violation of privacy?

I guess that is the point I am missing in this argument.

What privacy is he being stripped of by them using a GPS device, rather then a tail car, or paid informants at his local hang outs? Neither of which require a warrant, just probable cause.

[codyace]

Have fun with your security. I'll be keeping my freedom at ALL costs.

Why not raise your right hand and defend it then, instead of mis understanding what tracking vs searching is.

I enjoy my freedom. I joined to help protect it. I don't do anythign illegal to even remotely show up on a Gov't 'suspect' type report. I pay my taxes, drive like a human, and generally don't act like a invilid; with that said (as I said above) I also enjoy that my governemnt is taking a proactive role against terrorism.

Much like those complaining about airport security being 'bothersome', I like to say 'sure, lets let them fly some planes into buildings again, your need for a waterbottle and to keep your shoes on are more important'


What privacy is he being stripped of by them using a GPS device, rather then a tail car, or paid informants at his local hang outs? Neither of which require a warrant, just probable cause.

Most certainly!

Like you, I'm about proactive security -- I think we all can agree the Fed's have better things to do than to put trackers on everones car...somewhere/someplace/somehow this 'Guy' must have came up hot for something...

[superbike81]

I love when people start bringing the word "freedom" into a discussion like this, absolutely fucking retarded.

If you aren't doing anything wrong, your "freedom" isn't being violated.

They can bug my phone, my house, put cameras on me, and have a FBI agent following me around everywhere I go. Hell, I'll even give the guy a nice office chair so he can sit next to me at my desk. I don't care because I'm not doing anything wrong.

[kingkilburn]

By putting any device on my car they are violating my property. It is almost irrelevant that it is a tracking device.




Don't give me that bullshit freedom in quotes. It's fucking insulting, like freedom is just this little meaningless thing not worthy of discussion.


I really wish more Americans would learn about political theory and the psychology of power. The ridiculous bs that people come up with to justify the government's actions has me pulling my hair out.

[superbike81]

I really wish people like you would stop freaking the fuck out about such little stuff.

How would a tracking device on your car limit the activities you engage in at all? If it doesn't limit the things you can do, it's not violating your freedom.

This is the way the world is going, so get used to it.

[kingkilburn]

Fuck the way the world is going.

It's not little stuff either. Things like this lead to the ruination of the lives of good people.

When you add up all the little things you get a scary image.

Wire tapping without the need for a warrant.
Catching any and all communications over the internet(this type of communication should be held to the same standards a paper mail).
Forcing companies all over the world to divulge what should be confidential information through blackmail.
Revoking citizenship with no trial.
Extraordinary rendition.
Torture and incarceration with zero evidence.
GPS tracking of privately owned vehicles with no need for a warrant.

That's not even getting into any of the screwed up economic or monetary policy.

[superbike81]

You didn't answer my question. How does a tracking device on your vehicle limit what you can do?

[kingkilburn]

That question is entirely irrelevant.

[superbike81]

You brought up "freedom" in this thread, which is entirely irrelevant because "freedom" isn't affected by something like a vehicle tracking device.

[kingkilburn]

The tracking isn't what's important. The fact that they can violate my property is disgusting.


If they can't break into my house why can they break into my car?



BTW-Police need a warrant to use the GPS in cell phones.

[superbike81]

You are putting way too much thought into this and stressing out about way too much.

Not a big deal.

[kingkilburn]

Not stressing at all. :)

We will have to agree to disagree on the big deal part.


I see all of this stuff as a means to an end(not in a big conspiracy theory way) and the driving direction looks a bit to powerful to me. There is a constant struggle for power between the citizens and the government and for the last 20 or so years we the citizens have been really losing out.

[ThatGuy]

By putting any device on my car they are violating my property. It is almost irrelevant that it is a tracking device.

Again though, I don't see you going after every flier carrying delivery boy, or new business owner that goes around planting "devices" (albeit just a sheet of paper under your windshield wiper) on cars all over parking lots.

This device was placed on the vehicle, while the vehicle was impounded, and serves the same purpose, as I stated, as a tail car or local paid informants. It is used to gather more information (in this case locale habits) in order to get a warrant for more serious issues. Thus, a warrant isn't required for this aspect of the investigation. Also, by using this module, they are possibly cutting tax payer dollars (just possibly, I am not claiming anything as definitive). Paying informants all over town, possibly numerous times, to keep tabs on someone can get costly. Taking 1 or 2 officers away from more pressing issues, to put them in a car a block away from this guy all day, is a waste of manpower. With this device, then can simply put it on, and then check it when it is needed. It is a more intelligent form of investigation.

Just adding to the discussion, not condemning your opinion or anything. We are entitled to our opinions, and the ability to debate them in a peaceful manner. :bow:

[axiomatik]

They can't attach a device to my car with out my knowledge or a warrant. In the past a warrant would never be given for this with out just cause. It's the same as them not being able to install listening devices on your house.

No, it is fundamentally different. You have a reasonable expectation of privacy concerning the conversations you have in your house or on your phone. You do not have a reasonable expectation of privacy concerning the location of your car. You drive it on public roads in full view of any bystanders. If you get in your car and drive to the supermarket. How can you claim that you expect that activity to be private if 200 people see your car on the road or you getting out of your car?


The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and Warrants shall not be issued, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

All the feds have done is removed the need for a warrant.

That would require an awfully broad interpretation of the terms 'search and seizure'. You have a reasonable expectation that items in your car or in your house are private. That is why a warrant is required to search inside. But you can't claim that the fact that your car was sitting in front of Burger King at 3:45 is private.

Now, I do not agree that agents should be allowed to step onto your property to plant the device. I believe that crosses the boundaries, if they are going to do it, it shouldn't be on your own personal property.

[BustedS13]

You brought up "freedom" in this thread, which is entirely irrelevant because "freedom" isn't affected by something like a vehicle tracking device.

now you're just trolling... what a douche

I don't like the idea of anyone being allowed to just stick random shit to my car or any of my property without informing me. It's not really this specific instance, it's just... if it's now legal to throw tracking devices on cars without a warrant, what's the next step? how about we start putting gps in every new car, or maybe even make it a requirement, and say it's a new safety feature? what about microphones? what about just monitoring the gps in everyone's cell phones, and having a pin on every person in the country at all times?
sorry, i went off like a conservative on gay marriage there. but the point is, it feels too big brother-y. this country is feeling more and more like 1984 every year, and i really don't care for it.

[kingkilburn]

Again though, I don't see you going after every flier carrying delivery boy, or new business owner that goes around planting "devices" (albeit just a sheet of paper under your windshield wiper) on cars all over parking lots.


Actually a friend and I were just talking about a strip club leaving fliers on our cars every day. We discussed ways to get them to either stop or to get payback for almost 4 months of fliers everyday.

[kingkilburn]

No, it is fundamentally different. You have a reasonable expectation of privacy concerning the conversations you have in your house or on your phone. You do not have a reasonable expectation of privacy concerning the location of your car. You drive it on public roads in full view of any bystanders. If you get in your car and drive to the supermarket. How can you claim that you expect that activity to be private if 200 people see your car on the road or you getting out of your car?




That would require an awfully broad interpretation of the terms 'search and seizure'. You have a reasonable expectation that items in your car or in your house are private. That is why a warrant is required to search inside. But you can't claim that the fact that your car was sitting in front of Burger King at 3:45 is private.

Now, I do not agree that agents should be allowed to step onto your property to plant the device. I believe that crosses the boundaries, if they are going to do it, it shouldn't be on your own personal property.


You seem to be completely missing my point. My location my not be private but my property sure as hell is. They have ZERO right to tamper with it without a warrant.

[codyace]

Actually a friend and I were just talking about a strip club leaving fliers on our cars every day. We discussed ways to get them to either stop or to get payback for almost 4 months of fliers everyday.

Just goto your township/county/borough and ask them what you can do. Some local guys here presented our township with a similar 'cease the fliers' type deal that local resturants put on cars (college town) and managed to get it stopped...the litter alone was enough to make me gag.


You seem to be completely missing my point. My location my not be private but my property sure as hell is. They have ZERO right to tamper with it without a warrant.

So what's your opinion on google street view/bing whoever having arial photos and the sort of your property online for anyone to look at/track?

[kingkilburn]

I like the aerial photos but I think street view should stay out of residential neighborhoods.

[superbike81]

now you're just trolling... what a douche

I don't like the idea of anyone being allowed to just stick random shit to my car or any of my property without informing me. It's not really this specific instance, it's just... if it's now legal to throw tracking devices on cars without a warrant, what's the next step? how about we start putting gps in every new car, or maybe even make it a requirement, and say it's a new safety feature? what about microphones? what about just monitoring the gps in everyone's cell phones, and having a pin on every person in the country at all times?
sorry, i went off like a conservative on gay marriage there. but the point is, it feels too big brother-y. this country is feeling more and more like 1984 every year, and i really don't care for it.

Not trolling at all. I don't see how a vehicle tracking device violates freedom, you can still do all the same things you did without the tracking device.

Everything you just listed is fine with me. Again, if you aren't doing anything wrong, why do you care who is paying attention to you? I'd rather them be able to keep a closer eye on the criminals. If that means someone can track me and listen in on my conversations too, fine, it's all for the greater good.

[kingkilburn]

The greater good can't be protected if we forsake the rights and liberties of the individual. That is one of the ideas this country was founded on.

[superbike81]

We live in a completely different world compared to when the country was founded.

[kingkilburn]

That isn't as true as we'd like it to be and also doesn't change the fact that their political ideology is what shaped our laws and customs.

[axiomatik]

Not trolling at all. I don't see how a vehicle tracking device violates freedom, you can still do all the same things you did without the tracking device.

Everything you just listed is fine with me. Again, if you aren't doing anything wrong, why do you care who is paying attention to you? I'd rather them be able to keep a closer eye on the criminals. If that means someone can track me and listen in on my conversations too, fine, it's all for the greater good.

That is an entirely too passive point of view. What you consider the greater good my be completely different than another person's, or the police chiefs idea of the greater good. The reason the law requires warrants for searching or eavesdropping is so that a impartial outside party (the judge) can review the evidence and motive and determine whether or not the request is valid. I don't think we should throw away those checks and balances out of fear.

[empir3e]

ok just with my very brief experience with these 3 letter agencys.. you ALL are crazy if you think that they dont monitor EVERYTHING on everybody, just cause. even though we are americans, we still pose a bigger threat to the nation than most people realize. just little bits of info that are given out, not leaked, but given away because somebody thinks its meaningless can cause somebody to find the last piece to their puzzle, ya know. so i think its MORE than ok for these 3 letter government guys to watch and monitor whatever they want.... i CAN promise you that they see ALL emails and text messages sent out of the US and all that come in from overseas....

[kingkilburn]

How is Cav treating you empir3e?


It seems like the scariest responses are coming from military people.

[EDT007]

After reading most of this thread, some of you need to get off your political high-horse and you know who I'm referring to. As stated most if not all people will not like the idea of this being done but it's a necessary evil to keep people safe. This stranger you keep trying to defend in some odd way had enough reason to be suspicious. He is being tracked FOR A REASON, they didn't just pick a name out of a hat. And as for your property and tracking, blah blah blah. Take a look at your PC, I'm sure you have quite a bit of "tracking" cookies on there that do the same as that tracking device. Why don't you go after each of those companies responsible as well! I realize what some people are trying to say and on what grounds this country was founded on but without evolvement we will not survive. Until world peace becomes a reality these types of measures will have to be taken to ensure safety for the general population. Don't like it, write your congressman.

[empir3e]

How is Cav treating you empir3e?

its pretty chill except for this Iraq part lol... working on gettin put on assignment up in this topics favorite city.... DC! (dunn dunn dunnnnnnnn)

[kingkilburn]

This stranger you keep trying to defend in some odd way had enough reason to be suspicious. He is being tracked FOR A REASON, they didn't just pick a name out of a hat.


If that is the case they should have no problem obtaining a proper warrant.

There is no reason that they should be allowed to do these sorts of things without going through proper channels. The well being of the greater good is the reason those procedures exist in the first place.

[kingkilburn]

its pretty chill except for this Iraq part lol... working on gettin put on assignment up in this topics favorite city.... DC! (dunn dunn dunnnnnnnn)

That should make for a much safer duty station.

[empir3e]

no man, there is to a reason.... lets say you are plotting something, or you are selling valuable info. if you KNOW that there is a chance that i could be monitoring emails or* texts of yours, tracking your vehicle, or listening to your calls... you will be less likely to go through or commit to what your planning... its a detterent and a safety precaution, sure these 3 letter guys maybe invading your privacy and some of your rights, but look at the big picture... just because shit like Bourne Identity is in a movie, doesnt mean shit like that doesnt really happen if you get what im saying..... These things you say that arent right or shouldnt be allowed are the EXACT reasons as to why you dont hear more about terroristic activity in the states... just something to think about

[codyace]

It seems like the scariest responses are coming from military people.

I'd beg to say the most realistic ones are coming from us, but that's just my opinion. Right or wrong is up to the end user in this case.

The difference is, I think most military guys here also understand how it 'really' works. I mean we can argue in theory and idealogy all day, and the end of it, the Gov'ts job is to protect the people at all costs. Upsetting a few people to save a few lives is a worthwhile trade.

I don't think any of us 'doubt' the procedural aspect of how things should work, and how they did work, and what has formed our legal system and all of that jazz....we're all understanding of how it 'should' work on paper. THe problem is, sometimes aheading to the exact letter is the wrong way. Sure it's an oxymoron (saying we should cheat/lie/decieve) but the 'best bad decision' routine almost always wins when it comes to security.

[empir3e]

haha i love all this talk of warrents... i think that the majority of us can agrree that the whole point to monitor or "track" somebody is to HOPEFULLY catch them giving out information they should not have, or commit some illeagal act... the purpose is to NOT draw any attention to whatever these agencys are doing. TRUE, the FBI REALLY screwed up by not doing a better job at postioning their device, and they were really unlucky that the guy just so happened to be gettin his vehicle checked out. If you are not doing ANYTHING that could be seen as suspicious or someway linked to a national security incident what makes you think these agencys would even give 2 shits as to who the hell you even are?? BELIEVE me, these people have WAY bigger things to be concerned about. Most "terrorists" that are planning somesort of terroristic act are actually stateside! If this is at all a surprise to anyone, where have you been since 9/11? These agencys operate mostly in the US and "track" ANYBODY that could have any association at all with THEIR persons of interest. heres a fun fact.... you guys know there is a NSA "listening post" right in August, GA (the location of one of the biggest golf tournaments...cant remember the name,not a golf fan lol). This is 1000000% true because i spent 10 months at FT.Gordon,GA living TWO buildings away from this place. you think they are watching people overseas? im willing to bet that they are not! lol u guys gotta stop with this whole "they need a warrent" stuff. If any of you people that are complaining about it even had the SLIGHTEST clue as to what else these agencys are capable of, let alone do on a daily basis..... im pretty sure you would shit a brick. sooo be happy they are watching people THEY are interested in and not the "innocent" people.... i say that with quotes because, nobody is really innocent ;) lol

[HalveBlue]

Supreme Court: Police need warrant to use GPS tracking on cars (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/nationnow/2012/01/supreme-court-gps-tracking.html)

Seems like this issue is settled then.

[fyneyoungstunna]

I love how the younger generation is callous to this issue and "oh its ok for them to do this" but if the fuckers made gaming systems illegal you guys would go apeshit!
fucking priorities man...

No they legally are NOT allowed to just put tracking devices where ever they please, personal property or not. the problem is you cant do anything about it unless you CATCH them doing it. Deniability is a bitch. But, I can almost guarantee you that any FEDERAL judge not in the pockets of somebody would grant a warrant for this.
For all you dumb fucks saying warrants are easy to come by, let me drop some knowledge on you: for a federal warrant (the ones requested by agencies) there is a 24-48 hr sitting period unless an eminent threat has been determined and two of three judges have to sign off on it.....just putting that out there......
The police warrants are different than federal warrants, and in most states now are not granted by "judges"......
DO WORK!

[axiomatik]

It's an interesting decision. Especially considering that the fact that the GPS tracker functions just the same as the Police following you around 24/7. And the police are allowed to do that with no warrant whatsoever. The only difference is if you were to drive on a large piece of private property, where the Police couldn't follow you. If the GPS tracker requires a warrant, why doesn't tracking people the old-fashioned way?

[kingkilburn]

It comes down to my car being my property and no person has the right or authority to tamper with it without my express permission or a warrant from a judge.

Beyond that some of the judges agreed that in the long term drivers DO have a reasonable expectation of privacy as the where and when they drive.

[revat619]

I agree with kingkilburn. That is all.

[redline racer510]

I don't like the idea of federal agents tracking people. If they can track us with no warrant it should be ok for us to track any federal agent and any of their family members as well, just saying. I am sure they wouldn't like the idea of other people knowing where they and there family are driving around. It's not so much as having a tracking device attached to your car its the thought that someone is tracking you that's the problem. If this is what they are publicly doing to investigate people imagine the things they don't tell us about, and the secrecy just bugs the hell out of me.

[TheWolf]

FBI's 'Stingray' Cellphone Tracker Stirs a Fight Over Search Warrants, Fourth Amendment - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904194604576583112723197574.html)


they don't use GPS on cars, they now just simulate cellphone towers and utilize the cellphone in your product.. you don't expect privacy between your phone and your provider do you?

[kingkilburn]

These techniques are driving a constitutional debate about whether the Fourth Amendment, which prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures, but which was written before the digital age, is keeping pace with the times.


I would argue that the 4th Amendment is extremely clear and keeps up just fine. The Justice department is giving law enforcement far too much leeway and not doing anything about it until a case comes up they can't simply throw out.

[HalveBlue]

Welcome to the dark side of the digital age!

All those nifty electronic gadgets people tote around these days can be used for some seriously nefarious purposes.

I wonder how many people actually realize that their awesome, new smartphone doubles perfectly as a wire tapping device?

There's a reason everybody has to chuck their blackberry into those plastic bins before entering classified briefings...

[lewisfk]

Im in the military and this makes me question why i do this shit! There are more corrupt people in the government! Follow those sanduskys who bankrupted our government, and took bail outs! Thats my oppinon, but how much of the above stated is true? What would make the FBI do this?

[kingkilburn]

The ability to is all the reason they've ever needed.

[HalveBlue]

Not really.

The FBI doesn't have enough resources to focus on everybody all the time. If the FBI is spending time using this technology to track you, there's a long list of things that you must have done to arouse their attention.

Like the defendant in the Supreme Court ruling that I linked to. That guy wasn't you average Joe Schmoe. Homeboy was lugging around 50 keys of coke. The FBI arrested him when he met up with his buddy who was sitting on another 100 keys.

Hmm...a nightclub owner and his friend sitting on $2-3 million worth of cocaine.

Yeah, I'm sure that guy didn't attract any attention...any attention, at all.

[kingkilburn]

I'm not saying they are tracking everybody.

I'm saying that the FBI would skirt legality in their quest for evidence and a collar because they can.



Just like any other powerful group, they will always be on the hunt for more power. I don't blame them for it but the system is not setup in a way that tries to balance this behavior out. We have to wait for a judge to rule it out in court which means that tons of people have already gone to jail based on evidence that should never have been admissible.

[nomoremk2]

Sounds like were only getting half the story to me. I'm sure the FBI doesn't go around planting gps devices for fun. They had a reason. If it was under false pretense, so be it, they messed up. All you guys freaking out about freedom this and warrant that. I don't understand why you're so paranoid? It's pretty easy to stay off the list of people being watched. Atleast that's how I feel. I can understand feeling violated but honestly, i don't see it as that big of a threat. Most people I know give out so much information on facebook anyone could track and kill them if they wanted to.

[kingkilburn]

It's not about what reason they do or don't have. They absolutely must follow the rules or why are we giving up our own power and authority to them?

[nomoremk2]

What rules are you referring to? From what I read earlier gps devices are fair game by law for them now. Unless I misread that or that's not what you're talking about.

[kingkilburn]

Reasonable search and seizure. If you want to tamper with my property you need to get a warrant. That has always been the case and just because some new piece of tech comes out that has no legal precedence yet(HUGE flaw with our legal system) doesn't mean that goes away.

[nomoremk2]

Eh I see your point. I guess I just feel it's really easy to keep this from happening to you. I mean I definitely don't see the FBI taking interest in my life. If you're not doing anything wrong or posting blogs that contain a bunch of key words all the time I think you're ok.

[kingkilburn]

You shouldn't have to look over your shoulder for big brother.

At this point they can still infrared scan your house and use listening devices from afar without a warrant even with reasonable expectation of privacy in your own home.

[nomoremk2]

I feel like that's extremely paranoid. I'm sure someone could do those things but I'm not giving them a reason to. I know I'm not looking over my shoulder for anything. You shouldn't be either. I don't think the FBI has the resources or cares enough to be monitoring people they don't feel they have to. It's unfortunate that being Middle Eastern already puts you in that radar.

[kingkilburn]

I'm not paranoid. I know they aren't watching me. That doesn't change the fact that they have to much power to monitor people.

[Walperstyle]

as I said in the other thread man, You may not be paranoid, but you do worry about a lot of stuff that is beyond your control, has nothing to do with you, and probably never will.

If I had a government tracking device on my car, I would be honored to know that someone cares enough.

You can fear about government tracking, or racists all day, but I'd rather do some good in my community. I'd rather not worry about it unless it actually is a threat to my family's safety. Which it never will be; Because I'm not buying and selling illegal arms (yet).

...honestly, Kingkilburn, your life, and mine, are really not that interesting. The sooner you realize this, the sooner you can do some good in the community.

[kingkilburn]

In all honesty and sincerity, fuck off.

[fliprayzin240sx]

I think them not having a search warrant is the least of what anybody should be worried about. I'd be more worried about the National Defense Authorization Act getting signed into law...kiss your due process good-bye. Oh you're a "terrorist"...YOU GO TO GUANTAMO NOW!!!