noah's ark in the christian belief

[handinpants]

is this forreals do christians really believe that dinosaurs were around during the time of noah's ark... i read about that in one of my friends super christian propaganda comics he gives to kids.


Were dinosaurs on Noah’s Ark? (http://creation.com/were-dinosaurs-on-noahs-ark)

wtf thats crrazzzy

[ESmorz]

c-nL-koiV2s

[moocowmoo]

wow just wow.... thats a big stretch

[Phlip]

Thread moved.
All rules of "Loud Noises" (http://zilvia.net/f/loud-noises/274204-rules-loud-noises-ignore-them-your-peril.html) apply.

[VNG704]

uh no, christians don't believe that dinosaurs were on the ark. I've never heard of that before. That page is wack. Where it says "vertebrates," it should be assumed that meant vertebrates that were alive at that time. Huge "duh!"

[bb4_96]

I think dinosaurs stems more from the term beasts in the bible. There are so many ways to interpret bible verses and ideals.

Kind of related, prehistoric creatures still exist to date... just saying.

[bb4_96]

Hahaha the term "land vertebrate" def doesn't mean vertebrates like alligators, crocs, other reptiles, etc.

[murda-c]

Noah's ark was a spaceship.

[mr_eh]

you're issue isnt with the fact that people believe this guy built a huge boat and put 1 of every animal on it on earth in it, but that it may or may not of had dinosaurs on it?

[VNG704]

you're issue isnt with the fact that people believe this guy built a huge boat and put 1 of every animal on it on earth in it, but that it may or may not of had dinosaurs on it?
2 and animals that can live in water fear no flood.

[ZenkiKid]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RLrBnXWVIk

[ZenkiKid]

2RLrBnXWVIk

[5pecialist]

is this forreals do christians really believe that dinosaurs were around during the time of noah's ark... i read about that in one of my friends super christian propaganda comics he gives to kids.


Were dinosaurs on Noah’s Ark? (http://creation.com/were-dinosaurs-on-noahs-ark)

wtf thats crrazzzy
Do you have proof that it didn't happen?

[aznpoopy]

usually people who believe in this think that the earth is only a few thousand years old and our interpretation of geology and fossil record is wrong. hence the whole "humans being around with dinosaurs" bit.

[GReddySTi05]

well it says something about only the clean animals, something like that, so they weren't on the ark

[I LUV MY S13]

People spend a lifetime trying to understand the bible and get no where. Moving on now.....

[unlegendary]

2RLrBnXWVIk

LOLLOL, i hope you can asexually reproduce asshole... faaackkk

[BOROSUN]

crocodile are prehistoric came from the same tree decent as dinorsuars. shouldn't they be labels as dinosaurs too.?

[ManoNegra]

As God’s written Word to us, we can trust it to tell the truth about the past.

... and I'm out.

[handinpants]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcTrUviSFek

[lou's40sx]

There are groups of religious people that truly believe that dinosaurs and evolution is fake and they have a museum to brainwash their kids. I mean, religion is cool and all, but once a person uses his or her religion and throws out common sense and morality, that's stupidity. One can still believe in something and still also believe in logic and reasoning.

One can believe in God, and also hold caution that most things that one hears throughout his or her life is utterly false because these things are retorted by other people. Life is all about what you hear, what you've been told, and what others present to you. You have to filter out all the junk (like you would if you were downloading a song) to see which is full of viruses and dead info. Find the ones that work and makes you happy. You can't just say that you believe in 100% of everything one religion says because in life, my friends, nothing is 100%, and that my friends is the only 100% truth.

So:

1. Dinosaurs real
2. Evolution real
3. Noah's ark fake
4. Religion - I know the truth. You decide.

[handinpants]

lou's240sx where is this mueseum? is there one here in los angeles? this sounds really really cool, and i wanna go.

[lou's40sx]

I believe Kentucky.

I believe they depict Dinosaurs and Man co-existing on the same exhibit(s). Didn't know our ancestors ate Dinosaur meat. But okay~ They also have a Noah's ark exhibit, which would probably be super accurate to fit inside the museum to accommodate a billion species of animals.

Exhibits | Creation Museum (http://creationmuseum.org/whats-here/exhibits/)

[VNG704]

There are groups of religious people that truly believe that dinosaurs and evolution is fake and they have a museum to brainwash their kids. I mean, religion is cool and all, but once a person uses his or her religion and throws out common sense and morality, that's stupidity. One can still believe in something and still also believe in logic and reasoning.

One can believe in God, and also hold caution that most things that one hears throughout his or her life is utterly false because these things are retorted by other people. Life is all about what you hear, what you've been told, and what others present to you. You have to filter out all the junk (like you would if you were downloading a song) to see which is full of viruses and dead info. Find the ones that work and makes you happy. You can't just say that you believe in 100% of everything one religion says because in life, my friends, nothing is 100%, and that my friends is the only 100% truth.

So:

1. Dinosaurs real
2. Evolution real
3. Noah's ark fake
4. Religion - I know the truth. You decide.
So which is it, nothing or only that liner is 100%? Just checking your little liner there. I don't believe in everything I see, hear, etc... but I do believe there is something there that can't be seen, heard, etc...(yes, I'm referring to God). The thing with believers and non-believers is education. Alot of people from both sides do not have enough of it and make decisions and/or spew things from their mouths that may or may not be true. I guess that's where part of your philosophy comes in. Oh and I'm pretty sure it's the true believers that hold on to their morality then throw out vs the non.

[bb4_96]

The thing with believers and non-believers is education. Alot of people from both sides do not have enough of it and make decisions and/or spew things from their mouths that may or may not be true.

It's not entirely about education. Certain types of people no matter how much education they receive are always going to spew nonsense. Likewise some very well educated people always spew nonsense because they rely on education from all the wrong sources, or are just really full of themselves.

[SR240DET]

crocodile are prehistoric came from the same tree decent as dinorsuars. shouldn't they be labels as dinosaurs too.?

Birds descended from dinosaurs and crocodiles are closely related to birds. Birds and crocodiles share a common ancestor with dinosaurs, but birds are the closest extant species to dinosaurs.


If Dinosaurs really did exist during the time of Noahs ark then can the creationist making this claim present any sort of evidence besides using Blind faith?

[5pecialist]

Some religious people (the ones they make fun of in the news) discount evolution, when in fact many who devote their lives to studying the bible feel it is something designed by God. I doubt we mutated from apes, but mutation is really close to evolution, and mutation is evident - so you decide. But don't be too hard on these religious people, as they are no better than the scientist/atheist crowd who claim to know absolute truth.

On the other side of the spectrum, the science-as-religion folks argue against a God, yet science constantly proves them wrong. For example, SCIENTISTS (who make guesses that atheists accept as fact) recently wrote that many dinosaurs may have had feathers... not scales. So basically overnight an atheist's religion was changed. This feather issue makes sense, as we can see remnants of such mutation (evolution) in birds... their feet are reptilian, as is the skin around there eyes (and have you seen a parrot's tongue?!). Our C14 dating systems were designed with what we know, like computers, and we all know how human designed technologies often fall short.

The truth often lies in the middle. Don't close your minds!

[VNG704]

Birds descended from dinosaurs and crocodiles are closely related to birds. Birds and crocodiles share a common ancestor with dinosaurs, but birds are the closest extant species to dinosaurs.


If Dinosaurs really did exist during the time of Noahs ark then can the creationist making this claim present any sort of evidence besides using Blind faith?
Who said dinosaurs were around Noah's time? I think it was just an assumption someone was making as fact to make fun of christianity.

Let's not get into blind faith because science is about blind faith too, you just don't see it.

[SR240DET]

Some religious people (the ones they make fun of in the news) discount evolution, when in fact many who devote their lives to studying the bible feel it is something designed by God. I doubt we mutated from apes, but mutation is really close to evolution, and mutation is evident - so you decide. But don't be too hard on these religious people, as they are no better than the scientist/atheist crowd who claim to know absolute truth.

On the other side of the spectrum, the science-as-religion folks argue against a God, yet science constantly proves them wrong. For example, SCIENTISTS (who make guesses that atheists accept as fact) recently wrote that many dinosaurs may have had feathers... not scales. So basically overnight an atheist's religion was changed. This feather issue makes sense, as we can see remnants of such mutation (evolution) in birds... their feet are reptilian, as is the skin around there eyes (and have you seen a parrot's tongue?!). Our C14 dating systems were designed with what we know, like computers, and we all know how human designed technologies often fall short.

The truth often lies in the middle. Don't close your minds!


No scientist or well informed atheist will ever claim they know absolute truth, but they will say we have more evidence.

Also, keep in mind that atheism is not a religion, we aren't bound by any ideology or belief. In fact you don't need a reason to be atheist. I'm almost certain this confusion is from Faux News.

Who said dinosaurs were around Noah's time? I think it was just an assumption someone was making as fact to make fun of christianity.

Creation Ministries (http://creation.com/)

Let's not get into blind faith because science is about blind faith too, you just don't see it.

What? So, what exactly is it about science that is based on blind faith?

[5pecialist]

I've never actually heard much about this issue in my 30 years of church attendance... that is, until liberals & Democrats recently began their witch hunt in 2008 with the success of Obamanism. That alone should raise suspicions.

Here is an interesting read, for those who are open minded: Dinosaurs and the Bible (http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/dinos.shtml)


this confusion is from Faux News.
Not this shit again...

[SR240DET]

Here is an interesting read, for those who are open minded: Dinosaurs and the Bible (http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/dinos.shtml)

Funny,..

measaflalgkjalskd

[drift freaq]

Ok guys big debates here.

1. Most likely a believer is never going to get a non believer i.e. God vs Atheism to think the other way.
2. Most people misinterpret whats written in the Bible and remember there are two testaments in the Christian bible.
The first was written by the Jewish faith( the Torah or Old Testament). The second was written after Christ.( New Testament). Oh and I forgot there is the whole Orthodox vs Catholicism deal of 400 AD. Which was emperor Constantine wishing to rule his subjects better thereby adopting the faith and creating the schism. Oh and then of Course there was King James who yet again did this in the 1600's to move away from the Vatican control of the church thereby creating Protestant Christians and the King James bible.

3. There is the 3rd book as well that combines parts of other two's along with its own distinct beliefs aka The Koran.


Now given all of that There is historical proof to some stuff in these books while other parts have not shown historical proof and rely on ones faith. One must also realize certain aspects are allegorical and not some much exact fact but stories that have been retold and turned into more than they are. Better taken as parables and life lessons.

Oh but seriously if you want to read a good book written by a Physicist? Read "God according to God". He also has some other really good books he has written. Guaranteed to expand your mind.

Oh and just to stay completely on topic I think the great flood did happen. I do not think it covered the whole world but rather the particular region. As far as the Ark its possible as far as the animals two by two. Its kind of implausible.

[rc1honda]

you're issue isnt with the fact that people believe this guy built a huge boat and put 1 of every animal on it on earth in it, but that it may or may not of had dinosaurs on it?

Some believe that it was the Flood that wiped out the dinosaurs. Not a Asteriod that hit 65 milliion years ago.

That mankind and dinosaurs inhabited the Earth at the same time untill the Flood came and wiped them out so that Mankind could inherit the and take rule over the Earth

Christianity like many other religions and cults are divided into different sects. Some handle snakes while others speak tongues, while others believe the Earth in not 2 billion years old, but more like 6,000 years old.

This belief stems form the Creation story in Genesis most of which you guy will already know quite well. That the Earth was created in 6 days and on the 7th God rested.

The 6,000 number comes from another bible verse that states 1 day with god is equal to 1,000 years. So it gets interpreted as such.

And as much as this sounds like hog wash there are very valid arguments on both sides of the debate 1 being the inaccuracy od radio-carbon dating past 600 years. Radio carbon dating has long been held as the gold standard in dating fossil and ancient relics. But as fate would have it it is very inaccurate after the 600 year mark and things known to have been made as close as 50 years ago have come back as 45,000 years old. This is fact as science knows it. And studies have proved the inaccuracy of carbon dating.

So truth is there is know way to know how old the Earth is. The Universe is a much different story though. As we all should know by now the farther a object is away from the Earth the longer it takes light to reach our telescopes. And we can accurately date the light the reaches us into a few million years or so.

But on Earth there really is no way to accurately date any object other then direct observation or documentation. I would go into more detail that supports the 6,000 year theory, and i can go into detail the supports the traditional "the Earth is 2.5 billion year old" theory.

Truth is no one fucking knows. Not yet at least. Not until we can accurately date fossil records and geographic formation. Hope this helps some of you guys out. /wall

[5pecialist]

I recommend that anyone with any amount of intelligence take up studying this shiz. You'd be amazed at the wealth of knowledge & history, and how it might make you a better person.

[ineedone]

I recommend that anyone with any amount of intelligence take up studying this shiz. You'd be amazed at the wealth of knowledge & history, and how it might make you a better person.

Studying this junk (my personal opinion) is a waste of time. I know far to much about it all and all it does is let me end "religious" debates with some jack ass comment like "dude, you think Dinosaurs are a lie" or "You believe a man lived in a whale" or, my personal favorite "Q: God created everything? A: Yes, of course! Q: So the reason for racism? war? rape? torture? Darfur? Priest and little boys? Incest? (I just keep going until they understand I think they are a joke) (and on another side note, whenever they bring up the Devil I go... why did he make him? why not get rid of him? is it free will? or does he control everything since he made everything? that is usually when they are convinced I am the spawn of Satan and begin doing some cult like ritual). So in the end, unless you have bought into the whole BS and want to preach your snake oil to the masses, the only reason to know this stuff is so you can get into a never ending, pointless, frustrating debate with the nuts who take it to seriously (Ill admit, some of the stories and/or morals from them are genuine).

PS. Your "religion" is just a bunch of pieced together stories from ancient civilizations, none of your stories are original, and your "savior" is just a repeated bunch of crap. AND yes I am specifically talking about the big 3. Sorry for the rant, just tired of having "God's people" say dumb things to me when I am trying to study real shit, like the law.

[brndck]

if god is all powerful, could he microwave a burrito to be so hot that even he cant pick it up?

[DreamN]

^ Only if Jesus made him the most legit oven glove ever.

[brndck]

^ Only if Jesus made him the most legit oven glove ever.

god i miss the rep system....

[5pecialist]

I am trying to study real shit, like the law.
That was a tongue in cheek joke, right?

[pacotaco345]

The bible says that God is outside of time.. ie past, present, future. To me that means that the whole 7 days of creation might not have taken place in "7 days earth time", it could've been 7 minutes, or 7,000,000,000 years to us. If you look at the sequence of events, it pretty much lines up with evolution, space, light, universe, plants, animals, humans, rest, in that order... It's simply the 7 days that does not line up with the 7 bazzilion years or whatever strictly evolutionists think that it took for us to get here. What I think is that God created everything, in his own time... If animals came before humans that means that dinausaurs did too, and they probly died before humans, (noah) inhabited the earth, while other animals continued to prosper or "evolve". Do I think there were dinosaurs on the ark? No, but who knows.. Without a great flood like that how do you explain salt flats in Utah? How does salt water get way up there? I'm not saying I'm right, just that thats what I think.. If anyone actually understands what I just said.

[ineedone]

That was a tongue in cheek joke, right?

No. The Bill of Rights > The Ten Commandments.

Rules of law have real consequences and real results... the rules of God on the other hand... well last time I checked no one has been smitted or struck by bolts of lightning after comitting heinous crimes.

[ineedone]

The bible says that God is outside of time.. ie past, present, future. To me that means that the whole 7 days of creation might not have taken place in "7 days earth time", it could've been 7 minutes, or 7,000,000,000 years to us. If you look at the sequence of events, it pretty much lines up with evolution, space, light, universe, plants, animals, humans, rest, in that order... It's simply the 7 days that does not line up with the 7 bazzilion years or whatever strictly evolutionists think that it took for us to get here. What I think is that God created everything, in his own time... If animals came before humans that means that dinausaurs did too, and they probly died before humans, (noah) inhabited the earth, while other animals continued to prosper or "evolve". Do I think there were dinosaurs on the ark? No, but who knows.. Without a great flood like that how do you explain salt flats in Utah? How does salt water get way up there? I'm not saying I'm right, just that thats what I think.. If anyone actually understands what I just said.

I was going to respond to you, but then I saw your age. Try not to get to brainwashed kid. Always remember to say NO to the kool aid.

[brndck]

Without a great flood like that how do you explain salt flats in Utah? How does salt water get way up there? I'm not saying I'm right, just that thats what I think.. If anyone actually understands what I just said.

plate tectonics.

science.

[pacotaco345]

plate tectonics.

science.
Plate tectonics is extremely slow, so in the time that land that was once below sea level rose to almost a mile in the air, all the water would have drained from the land back into the ocean, not stayed in one spot and evaporated..

[pacotaco345]

I was going to respond to you, but then I saw your age. Try not to get to brainwashed kid. Always remember to say NO to the kool aid.
Brainwashed how, by people like you who are too ignorant to see that there's something bigger than your own ego out there? Just because I'm 16 doesn't mean I'm an idiot, I'm gonna believe what I want to, not what some guy off the internet tells me to.

[wh0aitznic0]

Plate tectonics is extremely slow, so in the time that land that was once below sea level rose to almost a mile in the air, all the water would have drained from the land back into the ocean, not stayed in one spot and evaporated..

Location: Temecula CA
Age: 16

[ineedone]

Brainwashed how, by people like you who are too ignorant to see that there's something bigger than your own ego out there? Just because I'm 16 doesn't mean I'm an idiot, I'm gonna believe what I want to, not what some guy off the internet tells me to.


Did I ever say there was nothing out there? My own ego? All I said is that your religion, and your beliefs are snake oil. It is all made up and pieced together from ancient civilizations.

You being 16 makes you impressionable and easy to manipulate. You should believe what ever you want, however, believing in some guy off the internet is just as credible as believing the bible.

[theicecreamdan]

lou's240sx where is this mueseum? is there one here in los angeles? this sounds really really cool, and i wanna go.

Creation and Earth History Museum, Santee, California (http://www.roadsideamerica.com/story/9416)

[I LUV MY S13]

Did I ever say there was nothing out there? My own ego? All I said is that your religion, and your beliefs are snake oil. It is all made up and pieced together from ancient civilizations.

You being 16 makes you impressionable and easy to manipulate. You should believe what ever you want, however, believing in some guy off the internet is just as credible as believing the bible.


Attacking a 16yr old and his beliefs is proving your ignorance. Give up

[theicecreamdan]

Brainwashed how, by people like you who are too ignorant to see that there's something bigger than your own ego out there? Just because I'm 16 doesn't mean I'm an idiot, I'm gonna believe what I want to, not what some guy off the internet tells me to.

I've never seen "religion" justified so eloquently.

[HalveBlue]

I think Noah was a passive-aggressive dickhead. I mean, sure, cows and chickens excellent, tasty choices to sustain humanity. I would ahve saved those animals, too.

But what about mosquitoes, the bot fly, or that fish in the Amazon that swims up your peehole and gets lodged in there? I'm sure humanity could do without those.

In conclusion: Fuck you, Noah!

[handinpants]

Creation and Earth History Museum, Santee, California (http://www.roadsideamerica.com/story/9416)
awsome, i am loving this... those poor kids don't know any better
damn i was just in san diego, in el cajon.

[5pecialist]

You being 16
Age has nothing to do with it. I know a few 40-60 year olds who don't have a good grasp of reality yet.

believing in some guy off the internet is just as credible as believing the bible.
How so?

[ineedone]

Age has nothing to do with it. I know a few 40-60 year olds who don't have a good grasp of reality yet.

Age definitely matters. You are going to try and tell me you were just as smart now as you were back then? At 16 I was no where near the same person as I am today. So yes, age and experience (in life) is definitely something that matters.



How so?

Well, find me one real piece of evidence of God... which is impossible, all that is available is blind faith. So, if you can blindly believe in that, than it is just as reasonable to blindly believe in me. If there was any real proof that any religion was the truth, we would all be believers of that.

[5pecialist]

Proof is all around you. You'd have to be blind to not see it.

[VROOOM]

Proof is all around you. You'd have to be blind to not see it.

the proof is in the banana.

[ineedone]

Proof is all around you. You'd have to be blind to not see it.

....:tweak::axe::duh:

I like turtles...

[ineedone]

the proof is in the banana.

Is that a quote from Raptor 3:16, from the Raptor Jesus Testament of the Raptor Bible? Ill believe it:hyper:

[VROOOM]

from the Kirk Cameron video about how the shape of Bananas proves there is a god.

[ineedone]

from the Kirk Cameron video about how the shape of Bananas proves there is a god.

It does fit perfect in your hand! hahahaha

Take this test, it works!

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/jCX0JJ16dFM&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/jCX0JJ16dFM&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

[5pecialist]

The God Delusion. Kinda funny that you reference that book but don't believe the bible book...

[ineedone]

The God Delusion. Kinda funny that you reference that book but don't believe the bible book...


You are not getting the joke...

[pacotaco345]

Age definitely matters. You are going to try and tell me you were just as smart now as you were back then? At 16 I was no where near the same person as I am today. So yes, age and experience (in life) is definitely something that matters.




Well, find me one real piece of evidence of God... which is impossible, all that is available is blind faith. So, if you can blindly believe in that, than it is just as reasonable to blindly believe in me. If there was any real proof that any religion was the truth, we would all be believers of that.

As for age, I'm pretty sure theres a ton of 16 year olds just on this forum that know 10X more about cars than most people in their 80's, It just shows that knowledge comes from what you expose yourself to, not age.

Find me one real piece of evidence on how life, or everything in general all started. And dont say the big bang cuz I can stare in front of me for 500 billion years and the air in front of me isn't gonna explode.

[ineedone]

Have fun drinking the kool-aid!

I would try and explain how bad your arguments are, but... I just feel like making a 16 year old child cry is not the way to end my Monday. Either way, good luck with whatever path in life you choose and hopefully in the end you are happy.

[rokmplutonium]

if god is all powerful, could he microwave a burrito to be so hot that even he cant pick it up?

You can't compare an infinite to a finite.
A burrito can only get so hot because heat has a finite end to how hot it can get.

Besides, I bet GOD could just use his levitation ability.

[aa87]

creationism is not science.

that is all.

[VNG704]

Well, find me one real piece of evidence of God... which is impossible, all that is available is blind faith.
Pain and suffering is your proof. We are sinners so we suffer. It's supposed to bring you closer to God. Anyway we have this thing called will power. And because to every action there is a reaction, how can we blame God for our suffering when we did it to ourselves?

[VNG704]

creationism is not science.

that is all.
it's what some people think is true.... um, kinda like the "theory" of evolution.

[5pecialist]

creationism is not science.
Lucky for us! Science is a man made thing, and as such is flawed to the core. Science is always disproving itself.

[ineedone]

Pain and suffering is your proof. We are sinners so we suffer. It's supposed to bring you closer to God. Anyway we have this thing called will power. And because to every action there is a reaction, how can we blame God for our suffering when we did it to ourselves?

I have no flippin idea what you are trying to say! Seeing as you are from Wisconsin, I am going to blame this on the fried mayonnaise balls that you most likely eat on a daily basis.

[ineedone]

Lucky for us! Science is a man made thing, and as such is flawed to the core. Science is always disproving itself.

Using your logic: The Bible was written by man, therefore it is flawed, and as anyone who has study the history of "The Bible" knows, it also disproves itself. I still wonder why they forgot to add that whole time of little Jesus acting like a kid and all in the Bible... any ideas? Oh yeah, Giant man-eating whales are way more important... and infinitely large boats. Yup... makes perfect sense. :snoop:

[aa87]

it's what some people think is true.... um, kinda like the "theory" of evolution.

Theres a difference in what is thinking as far as faith-based thinking and what can be proven with equations and results.

I don't rely too heavily on the "theory" of gravity as well, you never know when jesus wants to just take it away. Considering in the science community, theory can almost be considered fact since it has proven itself over and over again, yet remains theory to allow for continued searches into it.

The atomic "theory" is also questionable, since it cant be true with everything made of clay and dirt, not these particles called atoms.

Theres plenty of "theory" in science, but its not theory where you can just make something up and its in theory. Theory is developed after scrutinized testing, and has progressive results. Saying something happened "Because God did it" is simply not science.

If people think creationism is true, then let it be, but that is only reserved for Sundays and not our schools. Otherwise I want to hear about the Flying Spaghetti Monster touching favorable with his noodly appendage.

Lucky for us! Science is a man made thing, and as such is flawed to the core. Science is always disproving itself.

Science disproves itself often, exceptions are often found, new things are discovered, that is the core of science, unfortunately many don't grasp.

I also want a good, scholarly, peer-reviewed guide on science disproving itself.

But how is science disproving itself in the sense of your argument. The flaws within the creationist theory far outnumber the flaws within any scientific "theory." If you take in literal interpretation of the bible, you might as well go collect phillistine foreskins and drop the whole forum thing, it is the word of God.



Also consider this, since you are on an automobile forum. Do you think without science we would be where we are today? Fuck no. Would you be enjoying your s13 or whatever you drive? Probably not because non-scientists would be kicking dirt like they are now waiting for the apocalypse.

Scientific principles have advanced humanity. Religion pushes them backwards.

[bshotts]

What I think is most interesting about a thread like this is just how many of these types of debates/arguments/disagreements there are day in and day out in all sorts of social circles. It seems as if most people are committed to their beliefs usually with some supporting evidence and thus are not willing to consider an opposing viewpoint. This is why this type of discussion goes on with no end.

None of us have concrete physical evidence of how everything came into existence, but only theories of what happened in the past based on what we observe in the present. Some would consider that the scientific method; forming a theory or hypothesis, testing, then looking at the results for repeatability and confirmation of that theory.

What most have mentioned about science in general is that over time, theories have evolved to either build upon the original idea or be completely reformed based on data from experiments or general discoveries. I think most of us who believe God is real and was the original creator will claim that God's written word, the Bible, is an unchanging collection of historical events and generally an instruction manual/commentary for daily living and that scientific theory is an evolving theory due to continuous scientific advancements. This makes it difficult to commit to as a belief system when it changes over time.

I do realize that certain individuals in the past who have had their own interests in mind have had small influences on what material is included or different interpretations of the Bible, however any uncertainty in interpretations can be solved knowing the context in which something was written and the content it contains, i.e. what was written in the original language of either Hebrew or Greek. You almost have to admit how amazing of a document The Bible is, even if you don't beleive a single word it contains. I encourage believers and non-believers alike to read any number of impartial studies that exist that analyze the Bible. I've recently been studying the argument for Creation from a cellular level looking at proteins/amino acids, DNA, RNA, how they all interact, how many times and at what speeds they perform their functions, all happening millions of times per second in millions of cells in just one simpe organ. This would be considered the argument of complexity. I again encourage anyone interested in this stuff to pick up a book; chemistry book, lectures by people in the field, references to the Bible. This stuff does overlap between the two believe it or not.

[5pecialist]

I also want a good, scholarly, peer-reviewed guide on science disproving itself.
Hello - the countless "peer reviewed" studies that contradict each other.

Peer reviewing is a joke in itself... higher learning prides itself on the gang mentality. "I must be right because look at all the homiez that vouch for me". So basically the herd mentality rules the religion of science. Kinda funny how the credibility of these peers never seems to diminish when the studies they vouched for become disproved.

Not to mention that in the end, scientists can only discover what God has created.

[rc1honda]

The Bible is, even if you don't beleive a single word it contains. I encourage believers and non-believers alike to read any number of impartial studies that exist that analyze the Bible. I've recently been studying the argument for Creation from a cellular level looking at proteins/amino acids, DNA, RNA, how they all interact, how many times and at what speeds they perform their functions, all happening millions of times per second in millions of cells in just one simpe organ. This would be considered the argument of complexity. I again encourage anyone interested in this stuff to pick up a book; chemistry book, lectures by people in the field, references to the Bible. This stuff does overlap between the two believe it or not.

This is way off topic but I agree the bible itself is a amazing document. Studies such as the bible code where ELE (equal letter distancing) have shown to predict past historical events, such as The battle of the Bulge and the first nuclear chain reaction and the Kennedy assassination, use science to piq curiosty into the supernatural.

However there is a problem as hind sight is always 20:20. U cannot search for any evet that has not happened yet. Becuase you wouldn't know what to look for. And if you search for any one event i.e. 2012 doomsday who's to say the hits you get are relevant to any occurence that will happen in 2012. Prophecy is often self fullfilling.

Back to the major debate, Religion and science will never meet in the middle. All forms of debate on this matter is masterbation without the climax.

Did Noah build a ark and fill it with animals right before a flood? Sure anything is possible. Was dinosaurs still roaming the Earth at that time. Well knowing what we know maybe, it's possible.

Did God tell him to do it? Who knows.

[DreamN]

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/files/2009/05/flying_spaghetti_monster_2-thumb-514x514.jpg


/thread


/wrists

[5pecialist]

All forms of debate on this matter is masterbation without the climax.
Sadly I agree. I was hoping this wasn't a debate, but looks like it is just another lost cause. Can't say I didn't try.

In the meantime, here are some science findings that disprove other science findings... Triceratops didn't exsit? http://www.onenewspage.com/news/Front+Page/20100803/13680712/Triceratops-Never-Existed.htm Science FAIL LOL!!!

What's next - science finds Pluto isn't really a planet? Oh wait...

[ineedone]

Sadly I agree. I was hoping this wasn't a debate, but looks like it is just another lost cause. Can't say I didn't try.

In the meantime, here are some science findings that disprove other science findings... Triceratops didn't exsit? Triceratops Never Existed - One News Page (http://www.onenewspage.com/news/Front+Page/20100803/13680712/Triceratops-Never-Existed.htm) Science FAIL LOL!!!

What's next - science finds Pluto isn't really a planet? Oh wait...

Uhh... just because they put the bones together wrong does not mean that it did not exist. It is like saying the puzzle does not exist because you lost a piece of it. Also, Pluto still exist, it is not classified as a planet, but the big ass rock is still floating in space right?

God and Science can exist together, my argument, which seems to escape all of you, is that Religion and Science can not exist together. Again, if your God does exist, why did he create AIDS? Cancer? SIDS? why did he let a school get shot up? if he really exist why not put out a podcast? shoot even these retarded lame scientist:bash: can do that...

If your so excited about God and being with him in heaven, we do have over crowding problems, I mean, you could always just go meet him now. Really, if he is so great, why wait?:wiggle:

[ineedone]

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/files/2009/05/flying_spaghetti_monster_2-thumb-514x514.jpg


/thread


/wrists

:eek2: Win

[5pecialist]

Uhh... just because they put the bones together wrong does not mean that it did not exist. It is like saying the puzzle does not exist because you lost a piece of it. Also, Pluto still exist, it is not classified as a planet, but the big ass rock is still floating in space right?

God and Science can exist together, my argument, which seems to escape all of you, is that Religion and Science can not exist together. Again, if your God does exist, why did he create AIDS? Cancer? SIDS? why did he let a school get shot up? if he really exist why not put out a podcast? shoot even these retarded lame scientist:bash: can do that...

If your so excited about God and being with him in heaven, we do have over crowding problems, I mean, you could always just go meet him now. Really, if he is so great, why wait?:wiggle:
Religion and science are existing together right now. Why would you claim otherwise? It's just when science attempts to overtake religion that science fails. Science only shows us what God created. Science cannot create.

As for your other questions, are these just more justifications for your viewpoint - or would you actually like answers? I don't want to waste my time typing if you don't actually want to read it.

[vas570sx]

I wanna read your answers... does that count?

[aa87]

http://www.laboiteverte.fr/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/first-contact-alien.png

[ineedone]

^ ZOMGBBQ!!!! and I will be forwarding that to my entire email list... you never know man!


Religion and science are existing together right now. Why would you claim otherwise? It's just when science attempts to overtake religion that science fails. Science only shows us what God created. Science cannot create.

As for your other questions, are these just more justifications for your viewpoint - or would you actually like answers? I don't want to waste my time typing if you don't actually want to read it.

and your proof God created anything? (blind faith is not a valid argument fried mayo).

Science can not create? um, yes... yes it can. Remember Dolly the lama(sheep* thanks icecreamdan!) (hint: created).

If your answers have something to do with historical/scientific/real proof then sure I would love to hear them, but if your going to go on a rant about how "God told me so!" then do not waste your time.

Religion and Science do not exist together, religion is for zealots who want to control the weak. Arguably, Science can be considered the same (except you can re-produce science, you can not re-produce faith) God (or a higher being/deity) and science may very well exist, however, without any sign or real proof (like a Made in Heaven sticker) you can only speculate and pontificate.

[theicecreamdan]

Dolly was a sheep.

[ineedone]

Dolly was a sheep.

Damnit.... owned:zombie:

[VNG704]

You can't make a non-believer believe by simply telling them. Because they want proof and since believing is based on faith, it's impossible. So the argument is never ending.

Non-believers think life came from out of nowhere, BANG! and there we are. Believers think life came from God. Both outrages *shrugs*.

ineedone, I've lived here <5 yrs. I'm not from here but I do live here. I've never ate fried mayo. Good one on the personal attack. I just gave you proof but I can give you another and you still won't believe anything I, or anyone supporting religion, say. So why ask?

[ineedone]

You can't make a non-believer believe by simply telling them. Because they want proof and since believing is based on faith, it's impossible. So the argument is never ending.

Non-believers think life came from out of nowhere, BANG! and there we are. Believers think life came from God. Both outrages *shrugs*.

ineedone, I've lived here <5 yrs. I'm not from here but I do live here. I've never ate fried mayo. Good one on the personal attack. I just gave you proof but I can give you another and you still won't believe anything I say. So why ask?

Fried mayo is a Daniel Tosh joke... and it encompasses the entire middle of the US. It is not a personal attack per se, rather a regional attack. We all know that the middle of the country is where people go once they have given up on their dreams/lives. I am assuming since you fit into a 240, you most likely do not eat fried mayo. :ddog:

Non-believers have many different beliefs on how it all started. Big Bang is just one theory, and correct me if I am wrong, is it not the Hadron Collider which is attempting to reproduce this? I have no idea where we came from, we probably all started evolving from micro organisms that started to join and mutate. Who knows...

Blind faith is no way to change anyone's mind. All it would take is to find one piece of evidence, to find Noah's Ark, for God to send us all a "Get well soon!" card.

[VNG704]

Blind faith is no way to change anyone's mind. All it would take is to find one piece of evidence, to find Noah's Ark, for God to send us all a "Get well soon!" card.
See, the thing with proving it to you is not I, nor anyone, can do that. If you understood the teachings, Bible, blah blah, then you'd know what I mean. God will never send you a card(I know that was a joke). He may have someone you feel special in your life send you one. The ark could be found and it wouldn't make you believe. Have you heard the saying "God works in mysterious ways?" You'd have to experience it. But, you'd call it coincidence.

Proof:

http://coedmagazine.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/megan-fox.jpg


And you say there is no God :)

[aa87]

Evolution of sex - increased variation in the population due to exchangability of genetic material - potential to make offspring more viable in a changing environment.

[5pecialist]

^ ZOMGBBQ!!!! and I will be forwarding that to my entire email list... you never know man!




and your proof God created anything? (blind faith is not a valid argument fried mayo).

Science can not create? um, yes... yes it can. Remember Dolly the lama(sheep* thanks icecreamdan!) (hint: created).

If your answers have something to do with historical/scientific/real proof then sure I would love to hear them, but if your going to go on a rant about how "God told me so!" then do not waste your time.

Religion and Science do not exist together, religion is for zealots who want to control the weak. Arguably, Science can be considered the same (except you can re-produce science, you can not re-produce faith) God (or a higher being/deity) and science may very well exist, however, without any sign or real proof (like a Made in Heaven sticker) you can only speculate and pontificate.
My bad. You have all the answers already :duh:

[ineedone]

See, the thing with proving it to you is not I, nor anyone, can do that. If you understood the teachings, Bible, blah blah, then you'd know what I mean. God will never send you a card(I know that was a joke). He may have someone you feel special in your life send you one. The ark could be found and it wouldn't make you believe. Have you heard the saying "God works in mysterious ways?" You'd have to experience it. But, you'd call it coincidence.

Proof:

http://coedmagazine.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/megan-fox.jpg


And you say there is no God :)


God does not allow porn...or Bi-sexuals... or pre-marital sex, or masturbation... you my friend just booked a ticket to the fiery abyss!

If anyone found the ark, you could not pretend that it did not exist. Kind of like Dinosaurs (even though some Christians try to pretend fossils are just made up!). If the ark was found, the first thing I would say was, wow, that shit is awesome. How did one man build the biggest ship ever to be built ever. I would want to learn everything I could about it.

So your best example is "God works in mysterious ways!"... so you do not believe in coincidence...

Explain the mysterious ways of (and lets make it something recent) the Pediatrician in DE who is alleged to be the largest serial rapist (of young children) in history. Over 700 kids are alleged to have been assaulted, he videotaped himself molesting at least 4 kids, in which he violently knocks them out and proceeds to abuse them. What mysterious way is God working there? Thank you God for creating that monster, I am sure we are a better world for it!

There was this one time, during a fight (have to pay for law school somehow!), where I knocked a kid out with one kick to the ribs... I was really tired at the time, and I thanked God... but I am pretty sure it was because I had trained really hard for the fight, and not because God bestowed some divine intervention to magically break 4 ribs in my opponent. That was physics. :faint:

[ineedone]

My bad. You have all the answers already :duh:


What answers are you talking about? all I say is I do not know, what I do know is the how religion has been created. I have studied and read the bible (not by choice) and other religious books as well (Koran, Torah, Buddhist, Dead Sea Scrolls, Book of the Dead etc...). I also have studied a lot of psychology, and currently I am in law school. I am open minded about talking about the theory of intelligent design, what I am not open minded about is pretending one religion is superior to the other. Anyone who can pretend that any religion is better than the other is severely and delusional. Three things: First, You would also have to believe all the negative that comes with them (which most people do not, they are merely buffet style believers, take what is good and ignore the bad). Second, space is infinitely large and to assume Earth is the only planet with life (which we know now is not true after we found organisms are mars) is completely delusional and irrational (extra-terrestrial life would void every religion). Third, every religion throughout history has been used to control people, this is un-debatable, the tenants of every religion are not blunt about this and point it out in all their main commandments (the word commandment is enough for most to see this).

So I will go back to one of my older points. The Bill of Rights > Ten Commandments, read those commandments, and read the bill of rights, tell me which is more important. Take specific care to notice the wording of each as well. Trust me it is important!

[VNG704]

I'm well aware of my problem with the sin, lust.

I don't know all or even enough of the religion. Nor do I claim to but you asked and I will try to answer. We live in a world of consequences. I already said earlier that we suffer because we are sinners. That molester's getting his. It is horrible what he did, yes. But you are right: our world is better because God created him, in a sense that because you know the beast that the child molester was, you and I can be a better person. Sounds like BS but you have to admit that it's true.

Again, we were given free will. You know what that is right? Asking God to take away suffering is asking him to take away what we are. We have the will to be inhuman, that's what makes us human. To know God is to know morality because he is a moral entity. So to be unable to sin is to make morality inexistant. Confusing but hope you get it.

Dunno if you know or not but our government...especially from back in the day, is a christian government. It's just as time goes by we try to separate the two. Elaborate when you ask for "importance" between bill of rights and commandments.

How does alien life void religion? God didn't create man....and that's all, zip, nothing else! or am I missing something.

[aa87]

Dunno if you know or not but our government...especially from back in the day, is a christian government. It's just as time goes by we try to separate the two. Elaborate when you ask for "importance" between bill of rights and commandments.



Little-Known U.S. Document Proclaims America's Government is Secular - The Early America Review, Summer 1997 (http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html)
US Treaty with Tripoli, 1796-1797 (http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html)

do yourself a bit of reading, this was established well before our separation of church and state court rulings

FUCKING JOHN ADAMS, THOMAS JEFFERSON AND THEIR LIBERAL AGENDAS

[VNG704]

...ninja. shwing*

http://www.saviorquest.com/government.htm

back at you.

[ineedone]

Brace yourself, this will be a bit of a read!

I'm well aware of my problem with the sin, lust.

That is not a problem, that is human nature. Hell, that is nature.

I don't know all or even enough of the religion. Nor do I claim to but you asked and I will try to answer. We live in a world of consequences. I already said earlier that we suffer because we are sinners. That molester's getting his. It is horrible what he did, yes. But you are right: our world is better because God created him, in a sense that because you know the beast that the child molester was, you and I can be a better person. Sounds like BS but you have to admit that it's true.

No, the world is not better. You do not need a religious book or belief to know that raping children is bad. You do not need 700+ destroyed children (who may very well end up raping or abusing children as they grow up... topic for another discussion) to know you should not rape people or for it to make you a better person. What is true, is that it is disgusting, and the world is now a lot worse off then it was before. Try and tell anyone who has been a victim of rape, sexual assault, any of that, that they are better for it, please man... Read the Bible, take the bad with the good, then make an informed decision on your own without someone telling you what to think. You are young I am assuming, so there is still time for you to really learn without being told. I think the best place for you to go is a Unitarian Church, they are a very open church and well, for someone young it will make a lot more sense. Believe me, please do, that there is not one good reason that this man was ever "created," none.

Again, we were given free will. You know what that is right? Asking God to take away suffering is asking him to take away what we are. We have the will to be inhuman, that's what makes us human. To know God is to know morality because he is a moral entity. So to be unable to sin is to make morality inexistant. Confusing but hope you get it.

Free will does not make sense within the context of the Bible. The Bible also speaks of pre-determination. You know the phrase "God has a plan for you!" Well if there is a plan, then you can not have free will. God is not a moral entity either, again, this takes a serious look at the Bible. First, the old testament - God is sadistic and cruel (Judgmental). Second, the new testament - god is forgiving and loving. He merely represents the entire spectrum, not morality. People are good/evil due mainly to two things Nurture and Nature (again, this needs to be another topic to be fully discussed). Some people are born sociopaths and will never feel anything from the things they do, others will be calloused and hardened due to their life experiences. Sin is also undefinable, or well, everything is sin. The reason so many Christians (or any other religious followers) are so confused and can not explain it is because of all the contradictions in the Bible. It is meant to be ambiguous so that people can use it the way they feel is best (or worst).



Dunno if you know or not but our government...especially from back in the day, is a christian government. It's just as time goes by we try to separate the two. Elaborate when you ask for "importance" between bill of rights and commandments.

No, you are very wrong. The founders were inherently against organized religion. Specifically, Christianity. I know the far right, like Beck, would love for us to believe all of them were good ole church boys. But, that is far from the truth. Read the Jefferson Bible (It keeps only the moral teachings of Jesus, yet removes all of the miracles and crazy stuff). True, most of them believed in a higher deity, but not in the Christian sense. Jefferson often refers to "Natures God" this was a deist view of the time, not a Christian view. Research Deism if you do not know what it is.

How does alien life void religion? God didn't create man....and that's all, zip, nothing else! or am I missing something.

Where does God mention creating extra-terrestrials? I think it would have been very important to know, from the teaching of Jesus, that this world was not the only one with life, that other life exist on other planets. Heaven would not count since that is for the souls of beings, not for actual life (just in case you try to make that argument!). They were not on the Ark either...or was Optimus Prime there? That was an ark right?

[ineedone]

...ninja. shwing*

Government & Christianity (http://www.saviorquest.com/government.htm)

back at you.

You get your information from a site that opens with this

"REAL MEN DO NOT LOOK AT PORN, REAL MEN LOVE, CHERISH, AND HONOR WOMEN, REAL MEN STAND FIRM AGAINST LUST & SEXUAL BONDAGES"
http://www.saviorquest.com/



Um... that is worse than citing Wikipedia on a research paper...

[5pecialist]

You get your information from a site that opens with this

"REAL MEN DO NOT LOOK AT PORN, REAL MEN LOVE, CHERISH, AND HONOR WOMEN, REAL MEN STAND FIRM AGAINST LUST & SEXUAL BONDAGES"
The Savior Quest A Current Event Apologetic Website (http://www.saviorquest.com/)



Um... that is worse than citing Wikipedia on a research paper...
No worse than your posts :wavey:

[ineedone]

No worse than your posts :wavey:


http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/10/8/128679892870251417.jpg

:eek2:

[VNG704]

about the link: He gave me a link and I gave him one. I can cut and paste many more, just as much as he does. What is your point?

human nature doesn't mean can't be bad or a problem. It's natural for males to mate as much as possible with as many mates as possible correct? Science says so. But with will power and intelligence, you can choose not to. Do you believe cheating on your wife is a problem?

You say that we don't need God to know that raping is wrong, but without the teachings to tell you it was wrong how could you know? It was taught through out time. So maybe you didn't need it but someone in the past needed it and passed it on to you. Do you believe that waaay back in the day before the first teachings to be good, people really cared about not stealing or lying, etc..? Even the intelligent people back then were savages, in a sense of good vs bad.

Yes, the Bible, also imo, is meant to be used in a way the reader feel is best. Can be contradicting but it's how you translate/understand it. You said it yourself.

Where does it say that God only created life on earth? How is it important for Jesus to make sure to let us know about ET? They were not on the ark? lol, serious? They didn't have to worry about a flood on earth. I don't think whales were on it either.

[ineedone]

about the link: He gave me a link and I gave him one. I can cut and paste many more. What is your point?

The internet is not always the best place for information, a lot of it is made up. You posted a link to a crappy site, where most of the information is completely BS and/or wrong. I am not saying that there is no argument for your side, but there are much better places to get it from. That site is not one of them.

You say that we don't need God to know that raping is wrong, but without the teachings to tell you it was wrong how could you know? It was taught through out time. So maybe you didn't need it but someone in the past needed it and passed it on to you. Do you believe that waaay back in the day before the first teachings to be good, people really cared about not stealing or lying, etc..? Even the intelligent people back then were savages, in a sense of good vs bad.

Society decides what is right and wrong. Laws did not come from religion, rather humanity deciding it needed to govern itself. Can you honestly say to me, that without the bible, you would be running around raping and murdering little kids? And your reference to way back, the Bible allowed Men to rape women and to own slaves, it was Law not the Bible which changed that. Stealing was never considered a good thing, even in the most primitive society's standards, trade was invented early on to stop stealing (and even used by wild animals to an extent). Your lack of understanding of history is not helping your arguments here, seriously these are basic things that most people understand man.Two of the Ten commandments (the most important rules of God) are applicable, just two. They deal with murder and stealing, it in no way begins to address what the real world is like.

Yes, the Bible, also imo, is meant to be used in a way the reader feel is best. Can be contradicting but it's how you translate/understand it. You said it yourself.

Ok, this is good, your seeing how ambiguous it is. Does that not concern you? This is what allows the KKK and the terrorist, and the crazy homegrown terrorist who attack abortion doctors to all believe, as sure as yourself, that they are great Christians, Muslims, etc. It is how propaganda works (read about that too when you get some time!).

Where does it say that God only created life on earth? How is it important for Jesus to make sure to let us know about ET? They were not on the ark? lol, serious? They didn't have to worry about a flood on earth. I don't think whales were on it either.

I think the joke went over your head there... we can leave the Alien discussion for another day.

[HalveBlue]

Don't worry, George Carlin will save this thread!

MeSSwKffj9o

Thanks George! :bigok:

/thread

[VNG704]

The "word" was there before the Bible, so yes, I can say I wouldn't need the bible to know what is wrong.

The Bible didn't allow all that, man did. It may have been purposely mistranslated, purposely used to allow bad things like slavery, kkk, or whatever you said but the "message" is obvious. To blame the book for your horrible actions? Do you really believe the KKK believe the bible told them to? Or was it because of hate. Do you believe the enslavers believed the Bible said it was okay to enslave? Or was it because of greed or laziness(or whatever it is that makes a man want to enslave another man)? My history might not be good but your understanding of the picture isn't either.

Some misunderstand and some purposely mistranslate. People will pay for their sins, no matter their reasons. 'Less they repent, ask for forgiveness, etc... That is what I believe.

I think you're mistranslating "God has a plan for you"

I get that it was a joke, did you get mine?

[racepar1]

What is with people and the bible. They treat it as if it was written by god himself. Well, I have news for you, it wasn't. It was written by men, man is fallible and his written word often cannot be taken literally. The bible is a book of stories meant to teach morals, NOTHING more. That includes the Noah's Ark story. Actually If you do the research the "Noah's Ark" story is actually an adaptation of a story from a MUCH older religious text.

[ineedone]

The "word" was there before the Bible, so yes, I can say I wouldn't need the bible to know what is wrong.

Just saying, us Godless folk are not going around murdering people anymore or any less than you God fearing folk. That is real talk!

The Bible didn't allow all that, man did. It may have been purposely mistranslated, purposely used to allow bad things like slavery, kkk, or whatever you said but the "message" is obvious. To blame the book for your horrible actions? Do you really believe the KKK believe the bible told them to? Or was it because of hate. Do you believe the enslavers believed the Bible said it was okay to enslave? Or was it because of greed or laziness(or whatever it is that makes a man want to enslave another man)? My history might not be good but your understanding of the picture isn't either.

Yes, the Bible did allow that, It also allowed for fathers to sell their daughters for land. Read it again man, seriously. Yes I really do believe those religious radicals honestly believe they are doing God's work. Everyone knows the famous line in the Koran (Death to all the infidels). I understand it very well man, more than I would like to admit. If you want to get into a philosophical discussion on Hate vs Religious Guidance, that would be quite interesting. You need to learn that if you are going to be all gung ho for a religion, you must acknowledge the bad as well as the good (how many more times does this need to be pointed out). History is extremely important in understanding your religion (or anything for that matter). You need to know where it began, how it has changed in its literal interpretation/documentation as well as teachings, and where it is headed in the future. I do not think you have even begun to understand what you have been told in church (or out).

I understand the many reason people are pulled to religion. It makes life easier to understand, it is a good feeling to know there is something/someone who loves you unconditionally. It is good to feel your life has meaning/purpose and that there is an afterlife. I get it man, look I am not telling you to quit your beliefs, just be more informed.

Some misunderstand and some purposely mistranslate. People will pay for their sins, no matter their reasons. That is what I believe.

Well, that is not necessarily what the bible says. You can lead the most horrible life, but on your death bed (and this happens) you can ask for forgiveness and accept Jesus (blah, blah, blah). You just booked a first rate ticket past the pearly gates. However, a young child (say a 16 year old) gets killed in a car accident and because he never went to church he is forced to live a life in hell? Not trying to start a new debate on this just saying...

I think you're mistranslating "God has a plan for you"

How so? Predetermination and Free will has been, and most likely, will always be a big debate within the church. I have debated both sides together, separate, and non-existing. There is really no real answer or conclusion you can honestly make without wide wide speculation.

[5pecialist]

Well, I have news for you, it wasn't. It was written by men, man is fallible and his written word often cannot be taken literally. The bible is a book of stories meant to teach morals, NOTHING more. That includes the Noah's Ark story. Actually If you do the research the "Noah's Ark" story is actually an adaptation of a story from a MUCH older religious text.
Who is claiming that God wrote the Bible?

Yes, the Bible did allow that, It also allowed for fathers to sell their daughters for land. Read it again man, seriously. Yes I really do believe those religious radicals honestly believe they are doing God's work. Everyone knows the famous line in the Koran (Death to all the infidels). I understand it very well man, more than I would like to admit. If you want to get into a philosophical discussion on Hate vs Religious Guidance, that would be quite interesting. You need to learn that if you are going to be all gung ho for a religion, you must acknowledge the bad as well as the good (how many more times does this need to be pointed out). History is extremely important in understanding your religion (or anything for that matter). You need to know where it began, how it has changed in its literal interpretation/documentation as well as teachings, and where it is headed in the future. I do not think you have even begun to understand what you have been told in church (or out).
You should understand the Bible before you try to tear it down. You have been way off on a few things.

[racepar1]

Who is claiming that God wrote the Bible?

I am saying that people treat the bible as if it is the un-questionable truth, like god himself had written it. I am not necessarily saying that anyone claims that god himself actually wrote it. In the end it's just a book and that's how it should be treated. I would actually compare it to Dan Brown's recent books. It's based loosely on facts, but in the end it's still fiction.

[VNG704]

Acceptance not fear, for me atleast. Believers are not immune to sinning.

yea, my edit wasn't soo ninja.

A relationship with God is also a mental thing yes. But it isn't any easier to live, trust me. If anything, harder. Again, maybe just speaking about myself.

I'm not necessarily trying to win you to "our" side either. Just chatting.

.Well if there is a plan, then you can not have free will.You can have free will, he just knows what you're going to do before you will it. Lol, it is not a step by step type deal. Maybe the word "goal" should be used. Or that is my understanding.

[5pecialist]

I am saying that people treat the bible as if it is the un-questionable truth, like god himself had written it. I am not necessarily saying that anyone claims that god himself actually wrote it. In the end it's just a book and that's how it should be treated. I would actually compare it to Dan Brown's recent books. It's based loosely on facts, but in the end it's still fiction.
Now I know you're just here to heckle people. No way you believe that.

[racepar1]

Now I know you're just here to heckle people. No way you believe that.

Why should I not believe that? The only parts of the bible that I would consider close to fact are the stories involving Jesus himself. Everything else is mostly fiction. Have you ever actually read the bible? There's some pretty terrible things going on in that book. I don't know about you, but I would consider getting your father drunk so that he will have sex with you and impregnate you a pretty horrible thing. Yes, that's actually in the bible...

[ineedone]

You should understand the Bible before you try to tear it down. You have been way off on a few things.

Like? Understand the Bible? really you do? Sure:cj:

[ineedone]

A relationship with God is also a mental thing yes. But it isn't any easier to live, trust me. If anything, harder. Again, maybe just speaking about myself.

Sure, I can understand that, there are a lot of restrictions when "living by the book". But, as a mindset, it is much easier on the mind "knowing" what your living for. Hope is a powerful emotion.

I'm not necessarily trying to win you to "our" side either. Just chatting.

It is good to defend you beliefs. That is what this is about. My only criticism is where you get your info. You have the enthusiasm for it, now just get out there and keep researching it! Just stay away from the Glenn Beckish things... please.

You can have free will, he just knows what you're going to do before you will it. Lol, it is not a step by step type deal. Maybe the word "goal" should be used. Or that is my understanding.

If he knows, then he has created it, therefore it is not of your own doing/will. To have free will, would be to be able to do and think as you please. So if God knows this, and knows where you will go and/or think (again remember God has created everything for the sake of this argument i.e. thoughts/ideas) then you have been "pre-destined" to be where you are and do what you do. Therefore these two ideas, both of which are prevalent throughout Christianity, can not co-exist logically.

[aa87]

One other piece of evidence to consider

Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny. When an organism develops, ex embryo, you potentially are seeing past pieces of ancestral development. If we were intelligently designed, would we not simply proceed to develop directly to what we were intended for? Gill slits, tail, notochord, etc, all vestigial structures that "reappear" with development, and is very similar between mammals, etc.

[img]http://www.starlarvae.org/SL_graphics/embryo_comparisons.jpg[img]

[bshotts]

One other piece of evidence to consider

Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny. When an organism develops, ex embryo, you potentially are seeing past pieces of ancestral development. If we were intelligently designed, would we not simply proceed to develop directly to what we were intended for? Gill slits, tail, notochord, etc, all vestigial structures that "reappear" with development, and is very similar between mammals, etc.

[img]http://www.starlarvae.org/SL_graphics/embryo_comparisons.jpg[img]

"If we were intelligently designed, would we not simply proceed to develop directly to what we were intended for?"

That question is what got my attention the most. Would we proceed to develop that way? I don't know, do you? Is that how you would design developing life? Thinking from a purely engineering/manufacturing standpoint, we may make many different parts of varying shapes and sizes, but we usually begin first with raw material i.e. aluminum, steel, iron, some sort of metal alloy, plastics, etc. and make cuts, bends, holes, to arrive at a final product. Can you say that after the first cut to a piece of raw material that you could predict exactly what is being built based upon that initial step?

I, being a very simple-minded human, would most likely design life that same way. Start with similar raw material, i.e. proteins, amino acids, basic building blocks of life and begin processing that material similarly from the beginning then make my distinguishing modifications along the manufacturing process. Basically, I could do it all computer-aided by coding machining instructions to produce different parts and then assemble those parts together, similar to how DNA and RNA have their "machining" and "assembly" instructions. That's just me though. How would others do it?

[5pecialist]

If we were intelligently designed, would we not simply proceed to develop directly to what we were intended for?
Sounds pretty boring to me. Evolution is part of intelligent design. Only man produces objects which cannot adapt & withstand the test of time.

There's some pretty terrible things going on in that book.
Thankfully!

[VNG704]

If he knows, then he has created it, therefore it is not of your own doing/will. To have free will, would be to be able to do and think as you please. So if God knows this, and knows where you will go and/or think (again remember God has created everything for the sake of this argument i.e. thoughts/ideas) then you have been "pre-destined" to be where you are and do what you do. Therefore these two ideas, both of which are prevalent throughout Christianity, can not co-exist logically. I think there is alot of misunderstanding by readers about predestination and free will in the Bible. God's predestination is that there are people he chose/knew would be saved and goto heaven. His knowledge of what will happen before it happens, is foreknowledge or clairvoyance, etc... Destination, by definition, is the place where you'll be in the end. Not you're every move, by which you can will on your own. You can logically have free will and a predestination. That's if you believe in predestination in the first place.

[ineedone]

Sounds pretty boring to me. Evolution is part of intelligent design. Only man produces objects which cannot adapt & withstand the test of time.


Thankfully!

Well, no. I am still waiting for you to tell me all the things I have wrong about the Bible... :fruit:

I really liked this movie, because I think it gave some decent arguments for Intelligent Design, even though I still think they were really stretching with their arguments. It is called Expelled (you church folk would benefit from watching it) with Ben Stein. However, they screw the pooch on quite a few things. but that is what documentaries do now a days (the ends justify the means). This is a good read challenging the Documentary's claims Expelled Exposed: Why Expelled Flunks Evolution (http://www.expelledexposed.com/index.php/the-truth/evolution)

Man designed the Lexus LS400, and my friend has one with over 600k miles now. The damn thing still runs like new... Mine only has 220k, So yeah, it is like I just drove it off the lot.

[5pecialist]

Well, no. I am still waiting for you to tell me all the things I have wrong about the Bible...
Why would I bother? You would simply ignore what I write for you, and post up something silly like this:

Man designed the Lexus LS400, and my friend has one with over 600k miles now. The damn thing still runs like new... Mine only has 220k, So yeah, it is like I just drove it off the lot.
Sweet answer bro :goyou:

[ineedone]

Why would I bother? You would simply ignore what I write for you, and post up something silly like this:


That is pretty weak man. If you can not defend your beliefs, have an actual basis for what you believe, and understand where they come from then you are just a brainwashed fool. I think you have nothing to say because you know, well maybe you do not, that you can not say I am wrong. All that you can say is I looked at the same set of words and interpreted them differently than you, and since there is not exact way to read the Bible, you must accept that.

[ineedone]

I think there is alot of misunderstanding by readers about predestination and free will in the Bible. God's predestination is that there are people he chose/knew would be saved and goto heaven. His knowledge of what will happen before it happens, is foreknowledge or clairvoyance, etc... Destination, by definition, is the place where you'll be in the end. Not you're every move, by which you can will on your own. You can logically have free will and a predestination. That's if you believe in predestination in the first place.

You understand predestination just fine, however, you are trying way to hard to make the free will part. If the end has already been determined, you can not have free will. If God has already decided how your life will end, you do not have the free will to change that and to end your life how you wish. Free will does not mean freedom to scratch your head at any moment, it means having ideas and thoughts independent from a "creator." This is a main reason why it is tough to say God created everything, because that belief alone, voids everything in the bible about free will. I have had this discussion with a number of priest/pastors, and none could really come up with an answer and just say they really need to read the bible more because it is an interesting dilemma.

[VNG704]

yes, interesting. fate vs free will is getting too philosophical and I don't have any philosophy background, so I'll leave it there.

I could say: if you believe God can do all that is said then you should know that God is outside the constraints of logic. But it won't hold much water for you are a man who believes that only things logical or reasonable can be real. This is why proof is hard to come by for a person of science and logic. It is not something I could ever give you.

[ineedone]

yes, interesting. fate vs free will is getting too philosophical and I don't have any philosophy background, so I'll leave it there.

I could say: if you believe God can do all that is said then you should know that God is outside the constraints of logic. But it won't hold much water for you are a man who believes that only things logical or reasonable can be real. This is why proof is hard to come by for a person of science and logic. It is not something I could ever give you.

This entire thread/conversation is a philosophical one. Philosophy is not something you need to learn to participate in. It is pontificating and speculating what could be and why it could be. The greatest philosophers believed in many gods with no real proof (hint: The Greeks). It is posing questions that one, most likely, will never know the true answers to. It is basing your argument on rational explanations.

Again, you are contradicting yourself, how is God outside of something he created? It is not rational to assume that, or to believe that. You need to come to the conclusion that he is everything, or he is nothing. Once you have reached that decision, then you can have a basis for your arguments. However, both of those conclusions, will completely change your current beliefs. If you believe he is everything, than you must accept, that the Bible is a load of crap, and that God is not just, loving, but judgmental and sadistic. That is not a happy thought (which is why most believers are buffet style picking what they want to believe and ignoring the rest). If you believe he is nothing, well, than you just take the Bible, minus all the magic, and look at it as a moral teachings from the period, some of which still apply to today.

Logic and reason are two completely different things, again you are showing your ignorance to the subject. You are regurgitating religious talking points, that in any real debate/argument hold no weight.

Look, you are probably a good kid. You most likely take comfort in your faith because it gives you a sense of purpose (you said this before, how tough it is to live the good life). Possibly, you had some traumatic event that brought you to your faith, and made you long for the comfort that it brings. However, I highly doubt you acknowledge that the negative in your life comes from your creator. You said it yourself when talking about struggling with sin. The concept of sin is personal correct? it is something you do. However, if you take a step back, and re evaluate what your faith tells you, you will see that no, it is not you that sins, but God that has made you sin. Do you blame God though? No, you blame yourself and ask for forgiveness. It is a never ending circle. What lessons have you learned? I assume none that you would not have learned if you were not a person of faith (this comes from my own personal experience). I do not condemn or look down on good people who are of faith, I merely just see them as good people. However, what is troubling is that people of faith, are easily lead down the path to hate. Something that directly conflicts with the moral teachings (hint: Jesus was a socialist!!! who truly believed in free health care haha)

Keep up the good fight man, keep debating because you only learn more about your side and the other side the more you engage.

[aa87]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO9IPoAdct8