HOW TO: Set SR20 Base Timing with a PowerFC

[jspaeth]

I thought I would share with you all my method of setting base timing when using a standalone such as PowerFC....

THIS ASSUMES YOU HAVE CORRECTLY INSERTED THE CAM ANGLE SENSOR... (to within the accuracy of having the teeth lined up correctly)


1) Warm up the car to the point where there is no ignition correction with water temperature....the default map has 0 degrees retard at 80C and 6 degrees retard at 100C, so anything over 80 may cause some retardation of timing...

I have FC Datalogit, so I went in and changed the lower value to 85C, so that anything between 60-85C water temp causes NO ignition timing correction

2) Make sure your alternator is putting out roughly 14 volts...the PowerFC does a small correction for alternator voltage....

My voltage was 14.2V.....the table shows no correction at 14V and 0.797 at 16V

Using a simple linear interpolation, you obtain a scaling factor of roughly 0.9797 for my 14.2V....

At 15* of timing, this gives you a true 14.7*, an unnoticeable difference

3) Your car must be able to hold a steady idle (a little oscillation or hunting is okay)...

Go into the Settings Tab and turn OFF Idle Ignition Feedback

4) Go into the IGN (timing) map and set all of the cells in the LOWER HALF of the load map between 400-1200 RPMs to 15* timing.

The PowerFC has a built-in 15* of timing for idle....I have found, however, that for some unknown reason, the ECU sometimes just uses 15* at idle, and then other times decides to read the timing values off of the timing map for whichever cell it is in.

For the purposes of setting base timing, you can assure yourself that the timing will ALWAYS be 15* by manually setting all of the aforementioned cells to exactly 15*

5) I used a $40 "Actron" (brand) Inductive timing light that I bought from PepBoys.

*** At first, I hooked up the pickup to the loop on the back of the coilpack harness

*** As documented by others, I got an incorrect reading....even when I flipped over the pickup, the timing light showed ~30-35* timing (well to the right of the rightmost mark on the crank pulley.

WARNING: Rig Job Ahead

To bypass the above problem, I took a ~16 inch section of 2 gauge wire I had, and I stripped about 2 inches of insulation off on one end

On the other end, I spread the wires out in the middle with a screwdriver....this creates a little "hole" area for the spark plug to fit into.

http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad316/golfertilltheend/Car%20Stuff/Wire1.jpg

I then cut a 3 inch section of garden hose (to prevent arcing inside the spark plug well) and put the unstripped end of the 2 gauge wire about halfway inside the garden hose.

http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad316/golfertilltheend/Car%20Stuff/Wire2.jpg

I then pushed this end down onto the spark plug, and pushed the stripped end up into the inside of the Cylinder #1 coilpack, which I had removed, but left plugged in.

Finally, I applied some tape around the wire/coilpack to prevent them from moving around too much.

6) Now, using the 2 gauge wire that is BETWEEN the coilpack and the spark plug as an inductive pickup point, I aimed the timing gun at the crank and saw about 12* advance.

7) With the car running, loosen the bolts holding the CAS to the flange on the head, and slowly rotate the CAS in the correct direction until the timing light shows you 15* (2nd mark from right)



Conclusions/Commentary

In my particular case, I had done my timing of the CAS PURELY visually....this means that with the valve cover off, I set the bottom end to the second mark from the right on the crank pulley with the intake cam lobe facing away from the motor (1st cylinder TDC compression stroke)....I then punched the CAS just as the FSM shows, and once it was in, I got down and "eyeballed" the rotation of the CAS by twisting it until the 2nd dot lined up with the line on the CAS....

This shows that the simple "visual" method of lining up the CAS gets you to within a few degrees of properly syncing up your ignition and mechanical timing.

In my case, all of the actual timing that my car has been seeing for the past 12 months has been about 3* more retarded then what is in my timing map....this is safe....my timing is already WELL safer (about 6-7* :-O) under full boost than a few people on here running the same setup but with ROM tunes....this means that the 6-7* is actually 9-10*.....meaning I have a whole bunch of torque left to gain when I go and fine tune my car on the dyno

Also, in my case (and I believe in the case of the PFC basemap), there is NO ignition timing correcton for throttle position....so unlike with the stock ECU, unpugging the TPS during this process is completely unnecessary....


*** Additionally, this is yet another story of where using the loop of wire on the coilpack harness with an inductive timing light gives an erroneous reading, regardless of which way the pickup is put on the loop of wire....

[jspaeth]

I have an idea (just a theory at this point) as to why the loop of wire gives the wrong timing...

I went into my PowerFC, and found that at the idle RPM, the ignition dwell angle is 19*.


If you add 19* dwell to the 12* base timing that I observed, you get 31* BTDC....

This is curiously close to the timing that I was seeing when I was using the little loop of wire on the coilpack to check timing....

This may just be coincidence....someone who knows more than I do about this may have something to add...

[JRwerks]

This is exactly what i have been looking for and to do ever since ive gotten a Power FC! i think this should become a sticky!!! Good info thanks

[djcobra]

Nice write up, like I said before always check mechanical timing with a timing light gun after you punch in your CAS. With my setup I had to advance the CAS to make it read 15* We talked about this before and I got flamed by you... the past is the past... Anyways, nice work.

Steve.

[jspaeth]

Nice write up, like I said before always check mechanical timing with a timing light gun after you punch in your CAS. With my setup I had to advance the CAS to make it read 15* We talked about this before and I got flamed by you... the past is the past... Anyways, nice work.

Steve.


Ahhhhhhh I don't think I "flamed" you!!!

I think what I was saying at the time was that it doesn't really matter what your base timing is if you have a standalone and are doing dyno tuning, because it just serves as a reference point.

30* in your map with 15* base timing is the same as if your base timing is off (let's say it's at 10*) and your map is at 25*.....

Nonetheless, in cases where you are using common knowledge about what timing to use because other people with experience have already built up maps, then clearly, it is beneficial to sync up your mechanical and ignition timing so that you are comparing apples to apples.

[inopsey]

4) Go into the IGN (timing) map and set all of the cells in the LOWER HALF of the load map between 400-1200 RPMs to 15* timing.

The PowerFC has a built-in 15* of timing for idle....I have found, however, that for some unknown reason, the ECU sometimes just uses 15* at idle, and then other times decides to read the timing values off of the timing map for whichever cell it is in.

For the purposes of setting base timing, you can assure yourself that the timing will ALWAYS be 15* by manually setting all of the aforementioned cells to exactly 15*

my pfc shows the timing on the commander as 15 when the car is warmed up but will run high (30s) at idle when cold. if my commander is showing 15 degrees why would i change the values on the ignition map to check timing, the pfc is already showing 15 advanced? unless i have a high idle the timing always says 15 at idle on the commander.


also wouldnt i change the values in the top 5x5 left portion of the map since that is where the tracer is at idle?

[jspaeth]

my pfc shows the timing on the commander as 15 when the car is warmed up but will run high (30s) at idle when cold. if my commander is showing 15 degrees why would i change the values on the ignition map to check timing, the pfc is already showing 15 advanced? unless i have a high idle the timing always says 15 at idle on the commander.


also wouldnt i change the values in the top 5x5 left portion of the map since that is where the tracer is at idle?


1) If your car stays at 15*, then awesome, and you are fine....but for myself and quite a few other people with cams (from the Datalogit forums and such....), the timing tends to jump sometimes from 15* to whatever the timing map shows...

2) Yes, I thought that is what I said? The top left corner of the map, where the RPMs are low and the car is in vacuum...

[steve shadows]

Thanks for giving me some credit,,!>!>adljdsfaljlsaflasl!!!!!!

hahaha

There is actually a little bit more to the actual timing synch than this alone.

I believe I sent this to Jspeth with his orginal base map when he got it from me a while back if I still remember correctly.

I hate to be all up in the forum about this, but intill I started publishing this trick with my base maps, no one had their timing synched on thier PFC installs....

The PFC will almost never read 15 at idle straight off the timing loop or signal loop on no.1 coil pack.

Also I suggest using a spark plug wire- much better way to do this, just boost it into the end of the no.1 coil pack and clip the other end (the end that has a connection for the spark plug) onto the top of your plug in the cylinder. YOu will get a much more accurate signal from my experience than any other method or hardware

This is actually something I developed while working with Matt from Haltech when we were developing the first plug and play E8 for the S13 SR, we were playing around with manually locking teh timing and also using the timing lock function.

If you guys ever get to mess around with some of the more advanced EMS systems like AEM or Haltech you have a way to just select timing lock, and the ecu automatically locks the entire timing map to 15 degrees in every cell. The idea is to check the timing lock not JUST on idle...make sense? you can adjust the throttle position up to 3-4-5-6K while holding the timing light on the crank just to make sure the CAS is working properly and the EMS is transmitting a locked timing value at all times, under all conditions -

Then once you're done, unlock and re-insert you old timing map, one of my custom base maps ;) if you got one, or put the bish on the dyno and start with a "zero'd" map (you can only do this if you have a steady state dyno that reads tractive effort however).

cheers

[jspaeth]

Thanks for giving me some credit,,!>!>adljdsfaljlsaflasl!!!!!!

hahaha

There is actually a little bit more to the actual timing synch than this alone.

I believe I sent this to Jspeth with his orginal base map when he got it from me a while back if I still remember correctly.

I hate to be all up in the forum about this, but intill I started publishing this trick with my base maps, no one had their timing synched on thier PFC installs....

The PFC will almost never read 15 at idle straight off the timing loop or signal loop on no.1 coil pack.

Also I suggest using a spark plug wire- much better way to do this, just boost it into the end of the no.1 coil pack and clip the other end (the end that has a connection for the spark plug) onto the top of your plug in the cylinder. YOu will get a much more accurate signal from my experience than any other method or hardware

This is actually something I developed while working with Matt from Haltech when we were developing the first plug and play E8 for the S13 SR, we were playing around with manually locking teh timing and also using the timing lock function.

If you guys ever get to mess around with some of the more advanced EMS systems like AEM or Haltech you have a way to just select timing lock, and the ecu automatically locks the entire timing map to 15 degrees in every cell. The idea is to check the timing lock not JUST on idle...make sense? you can adjust the throttle position up to 3-4-5-6K while holding the timing light on the crank just to make sure the CAS is working properly and the EMS is transmitting a locked timing value at all times, under all conditions -

Then once you're done, unlock and re-insert you old timing map, one of my custom base maps ;) if you got one, or put the bish on the dyno and start with a "zero'd" map (you can only do this if you have a steady state dyno that reads tractive effort however).

cheers


Steve, with all due respect, not a single thing that i mentioned in there has anything to do with any of our conversations.....the "base map" you sent me was really just a slightly modified version of the fairly safe timing map that I already had.....it was just a timing map, and there were no additional instructions or any discussion of syncing mechanical and ignition timing

It doesn't take years of experience to figure out that sometimes the timing is 15* and sometimes it is not at idle.

And it also doesn't take a whole lot of sense to figure out how to manually set the timing in the pertinent cells to 15*.

Everything I wrote for the most part is common sense....shouldn't be very difficult for someone to figure out on their own if they have spent some time messing around with the PFC....

We discussed the fact that if your timing is out of sync, then you can still tune the car, because everything is relative to where the CAS is zeroed at with respect to the crank, but we never discussed the procedure for doing the syncing (because it really isn't very difficult...)



I can't be certain, but it seems as though you are upset that I posted this (even though I figured it out on my own, just like any person with a LITTLE experience and thought could have done) to HELP other people on here. You said this was a "trick" that you developed? What trick? This is all common sense stuff, nothing tricky about it in the least.

I feel as though that this kind of information is the kind of stuff that should be put out there to HELP other people, not to keep to yourself and try to charge people (who don't realize they can EASILY do it themself) who don't know much better.

[codyace]

Thanks for giving me some credit,,!>!>adljdsfaljlsaflasl!!!!!!

We used to do this on Sentra's forever ago ;)


I hate to be all up in the forum about this, but intill I started publishing this trick with my base maps, no one had their timing synched on thier PFC installs....

Well maybe not here, but it's common amongst all tuning software. When we had the AEM on the Mustang, (and the shitty factory dizzy setup) we used to have a hell of a time getting 'remotely' correct timing. Now with the EPM setup, and locking timing, it's such a breeze...it's amazing to see how precise it really can become. What a life saver.

However the same can be done with NDS (Unsure of COnzult). Modify timing to a single point, and go from there (assuming that timing mode won't work, like on my car)



Also I suggest using a spark plug wire- much better way to do this, just boost it into the end of the no.1 coil pack and clip the other end (the end that has a connection for the spark plug) onto the top of your plug in the cylinder. YOu will get a much more accurate signal from my experience than any other method or hardware

True, but that wire will be fine in this application. So long as their is a solid contact it will work well.



Regardless, ti's a nice write up for those who are unsure. The amount of cars I see that do not have the correct timing is really rediculous (both FWD and RWD). What makes matters worse, is that it's VERY easy to do. I never EVER take the valve cover off at this point to do simple CAS restabs. Put it to TDC, and just pop the oil fill cap off to verify the cam is pointing towards the fender and your set. Hooking up a timing light is crucial for any high hp car.

[jspaeth]

We used to do this on Sentra's forever ago ;)

Phew....okay good....I was starting to worry that I had released some sort of propriotary industry secret or something

[codyace]

Phew....okay good....I was starting to worry that I had released some sort of propriotary industry secret or something

Well, I think we all can agree that attempting to get a NIssan into timing mode (especially B13/S13/Blue Plug cars) is a feat in itself. I've had much better luck with white plug/obd2 cars myself hehe. So being able to lock it is fantastic.


Another trick you can use, is the reverse/rev down method.

Get timign light on car, let it warm up/run...rev the motor up to like 4k/5k whatever and then watch the timing light as the engine decells...it'll fluctuate a bit, then at the very end of the 'return' it will stabilize perfectly (as it's refering to the OEM ECU's 15* base timing value, and ignoring all other sensors). This way will work, but you need to be fast...or just do it multiple times to really make sure :D

[steve shadows]

Steve, with all due respect, not a single thing that i mentioned in there has anything to do with any of our conversations.....the "base map" you sent me was really just a slightly modified version of the fairly safe timing map that I already had.....it was just a timing map, and there were no additional instructions or any discussion of syncing mechanical and ignition timing

It doesn't take years of experience to figure out that sometimes the timing is 15* and sometimes it is not at idle.

And it also doesn't take a whole lot of sense to figure out how to manually set the timing in the pertinent cells to 15*.

Everything I wrote for the most part is common sense....shouldn't be very difficult for someone to figure out on their own if they have spent some time messing around with the PFC....

We discussed the fact that if your timing is out of sync, then you can still tune the car, because everything is relative to where the CAS is zeroed at with respect to the crank, but we never discussed the procedure for doing the syncing (because it really isn't very difficult...)



I can't be certain, but it seems as though you are upset that I posted this (even though I figured it out on my own, just like any person with a LITTLE experience and thought could have done) to HELP other people on here. You said this was a "trick" that you developed? What trick? This is all common sense stuff, nothing tricky about it in the least.

I feel as though that this kind of information is the kind of stuff that should be put out there to HELP other people, not to keep to yourself and try to charge people (who don't realize they can EASILY do it themself) who don't know much better.

SO I spent all those phone calls and back and forth adjusting cells and hours of mentoring you for free to turn you into some sort of cocky little know it all brat? What happened I thought we were pals?

I have notcied this more and more in your posting. I gave you free range to call me whenever you want which I rarely do with any customers but over the past year you try to find some sort of way to word posts in a way to make me look like an a-hole.

Anyways. All I ask for is to be paid for my time, which for 3-4 hours of phone/web support and map adjusting on average per map is not very bad. I charge my local clients 80 bucks an hour just to touch their cars. This market needs to realize you get what you pay for, and there are rules in commerce. It's not a free for all and you can't have your cake and eat it too. The results from customers who actually head my advice and work with me on my terms have always been higher than expectations.

[steve shadows]

[QUOTE=codyace;3531987]We used to do this on Sentra's forever ago ;)
QUOTE]

Of course you knew that Cody, you're a freakin Ninja!

I have just been following his posts lately and I spent a lot of time on the phone with this kid giving him all kinds of tips and now he goes out and trys to flame me any chance he gets. What the heck is wrong with people?

Anyways my main point is make sure to check it through-out the rev range not just at idle, I have been tuning a lot of SRs lately with toasted CAS's a lot of the motor sets coming over from ASIA are not coming from Japan anymore and are a lot more banged up.

I have also started recommended to my peers and clients to change out the CAS if you have any doubt at all. You don't want your CAS to start sliding off the timing map and doing whatever it feels like because of a saturated housing or a bent trigger wheel

[jspaeth]

SO I spent all those phone calls and back and forth adjusting cells and hours of mentoring you for free to turn you into some sort of cocky little know it all brat? What happened I thought we were pals?

I have notcied this more and more in your posting. I gave you free range to call me whenever you want which I rarely do with any customers but over the past year you try to find some sort of way to word posts in a way to make me look like an a-hole.

Anyways. All I ask for is to be paid for my time, which for 3-4 hours of phone/web support and map adjusting on average per map is not very bad. I charge my local clients 80 bucks an hour just to touch their cars. This market needs to realize you get what you pay for, and there are rules in commerce. It's not a free for all and you can't have your cake and eat it too. The results from customers who actually head my advice and work with me on my terms have always been higher than expectations.

Steve,

We had about 3-4 30 minute to 1 hour convos, which I paid you for (about $60 IIRC).

Then after this you saw my timing map and said it was "garbage"

I would call it "unoptimizied" or "safe".

You then sent me a better map, which cost me $60.


I then put the map into excel and looked into it, and there were some minor changes....but what really IRKED me about it was that there were quite a few situations where if you look at Timing vs. RPM at constant boost, you would see:

14-14-14-15-15-20-17-17-18........etc.

Clearly the 20 is out of place.

It shows me that you did a whole bunch of either copying and pasting form other maps or that you did a whole bunch of selecting groups of cells and using the +/- key to change shit.


That bothered me, so you then sent me a "better one", in which some of those issues were fixed.


That being said, the issue was only fixed BECAUSE I KNEW BETTER. Had I been some unsuspecting person who just needed some help and didn't really know a thing about what I was looking at, it would have just slipped by.


I respect your ability and respect your know-how.....it seems that like I WANT TO DO, you figured out a whole lot of shit on your own and you are really fucking proud of that. If I lived in California, I would almost certainly take my car to you to be tuned.

Great.

But rather than taking the fact that you learned all of this stuff on your own AND taught yourself and letting that speak for itself and taking pride in being the guy that everyone comes to for help, you have gotten into this mode of:

"I can help ya with that....why don't you PayPal some money and we can work it out"

....when you literally could just tell the person how to fix it or refer them to a helpful thread.


Never at any point did we have a discussion that had anything to do with the EXACT PROCESS THAT I LAID OUT IN THIS THREAD.

I would prefer to educate other people on how to do it themselves, rather than trying to charge people for it....even though it did take me a lot of my time to figure out how to do it.


I didn't word ANYTHING in ANY way to make you look like anything. I posted something that I THOUGHT WOULD HELP OTHER PEOPLE, something that anyone with half a brain could figure out, and you tried to MAKE ME look like I was "plagiarizing" some secret method that only you know how to do.

Setting the timing in a bunch of cells to 15*, turning off idle ignition feedback are insanely basic, and using a piece of 2 gauge wire instead of the loop is also cake.


I spent about 4 hours last weekend googling and reading thread about why people couldn't get the loop to work.....and NO ONE had an answer.


So I came up with a theory (that is testible if anyone cares to check it) as to WHY it doesn't work and read some more threads where people said to use wire between the plug and coilpack.

None of that is some genius-level shit at all.



BTW, I think what is going on is that as soon as the primary in the coil begins charging, this current is enough to trigger the timing light....

So that rather than showing 15*, it shows 15* + dwell angle......

In my case, this was 15* + 16* = 31*, which seemed damn close to what I was seeing on the crank pulley.


*** Also, about 99% of what I know about the PowerFC comes from about ~50 total hours reading the Toyota Celica PFC and RX-7 forums.
*** For anyone who really wants to know how all of the different functions of the PFC work and also FC Datalogit, I highly recommend those two forums....there are quite a few "experts" and groups of people looking to learn that engage in high-level detailed discussions about how the software works, how to datalog and make changes, etc etc......it really isn't overwhelming at all if you do a lot of reading.

[streeteg]

in for resolution

[jspaeth]

Ahhhh it's like you make it sound like you wrote a custom tune for me and I took the whole thing and posted every last detail out there for everyone to have!

I literally just posted some basic stuff that is a combination of stuff that I read in different forums and thought of on my own

[steve shadows]

I went back and fixed that issue for you twice and told you if you find any wacky cells to let me know and I will re write the map...then I never heard from you again.

If I offer my full open support to a customer and you just decide to try to start a war instead of working with me I really have no control over that.

I usually charge 80 bucks an hour. I usually also do not provide any phoen support, but I thought I would go the extra mile and try to work over phone email and send you revisions. I gave you advice on tuners on the east coast, how to use steady state dyno, hours and hours of feedback.

If anyone else wants to business with this guy, stay away or don't go out of your way because it obviously means nothing to him.

[codyace]

If anyone else wants to business with this guy, stay away or don't go out of your way because it obviously means nothing to him.


I wouldn't go that far Steve, as he's certainly not one out bashing you, simply just learning/questioning...it's not like you (or I) weren't that way as well when we finally 'were into the light' ya know? Justin is an extremely intelligent member here, so to dismiss him outright is a bit of a 'short sell'.

I don't think he's interesting in a pissing match with you, rather than just speaking what he believes is true - deductive reasoning can often come off as arrogance, so look at it from his troubleshooting perspective, which he's done a very good job of, above and beyond most knuckleheads that we all deal with on here.

Again, I don't see any disrespect, rather just questioning. That's the sort of stuff you're going to need to expect with the services you provide...trust me when I say, Anything becomes accountable when you're running a small business...I know that all to well from this forum...

[s14unimog]

:hide:





msglth

[tr0n9h]

wish i read this post before i dealt with steve. Everything jspaeth said is true because i have also experience it first hand with steve. I will never deal with him again. He definitely needs to learn how to deal with customer and take responsibilities for his bad tune. I spend hours reading and learning about power fc using rx-7 and celica forums just to fix some problems with steve tune