General McCrystal

[kingkilburn]

I can't believe no ones talking about McCrystal getting shit canned.


What does Zilvia think about it?

[DALAZ_68]

havent payed attention...backround please?

[shiftdrift]

no clue what you're talking about.

[kingkilburn]

He was the General in charge of the military effort in Afghanistan. He more or less has been talking shit on the president to the press for the last year or so. The President told him to knock it off and he didn't so he was "asked to resign".

[Walperstyle]

Its ok, Canada is doing a better job there.

[DALAZ_68]

so to break it down

Employee talks shit about boss
Boss hears, gives warning
Emplyee keeps talking shit
Boss fires employee...

is that the jist of it or are we gonna try and complicate shit here? lol

[kingkilburn]

That's pretty much it but it seems that the press, both military and civilian want to complicate it.

[Pblesh85]

Lol, darn....

His "driving dirrective" sucked balls !!!

Unless you think normal trafic should intermingle with U.S. convoy's. You know the people who suicide bomb us...

[ronmcdon]

OP, what do you think about it?

[rican_nick]

Heres the interview he did with Rollingstone that was part of the reason he got walking papers.

The Runaway General | Rolling Stone Politics (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/17390/119236?RS_show_page=0)

IMO: He's the type u dont want to F*($ with. The article makes him out to be a cool guy whose a killer that hangs out with killers who was asked to do a job with his skillset and he did while trying to dance around all the BS surrounding it. Finally he's like "f it", lets his feelings get on paper and he lost his job.

Personally i thought he would of been more of a professional and chose his words wisely.. but he obviously didnt give a damn...lol

[kingkilburn]

I feel kind of torn about it.

On one hand he is a soldier who disobeyed an order and opened his mouth.

One the other I think it is important for the President to listen to this experts and I know McCrystal's opinion was being ignored.



In the end you can't have decent like that that high up in the military and the right decision was made.

[rican_nick]

Chain of commands only work when everyone plays there part. Be it business or military.

McChrystal's cool in my book..I wouldnt put him in front of the media, but if I wanted someone to blow some shit up, get a job done and not loose any sleep over it he would be the guy I would hire.

[kingkilburn]

I would agree but I would add that he should never have been put in charge of Afghanistan. It's just not what he was trained for.

[rican_nick]

Oh yea.. Obama set himself up for the okey doke..lol. Happens all the time.. someone excels in their current position so higher ups think they'll do a good job being the boss.

Promoting for the wrong reasons.

Should of hired a lawyer to be "in charge".. then have a bunch of shady mofo's making the calls.. you know.. like the rest of our government.

[demonspeed]

Chain of commands only work when everyone plays there part. Be it business or military.

McChrystal's cool in my book..I wouldnt put him in front of the media, but if I wanted someone to blow some shit up, get a job done and not loose any sleep over it he would be the guy I would hire.


+1 I dont know if any of you have ever served in the military, but when one or two people dont follow the chain, the link gets broken. Dont get me wrong, he seems like a cocky son of a bitch BUT if i knew that he got shit done, why would i bother him. Also, its a big BIG no-no to talk shit about the president..expecially when you have younger Soldiers lookin up to you
But with all that said, would i let him blow shit up? Fuck.Yea.

[HalveBlue]

Hmm....

Since McChrystal assumed command in July 2009, has the situation in Afghanistan gotten better or worse?

[ronmcdon]

What about Obama, is he doing a reasonable job,
as far as making decisions in Afghan goes?

Isn't this like the second general in charge of Afghan relieved within a year or two?

It seems as though objectives are achieved and progress is made, however tedious.
Maybe those of you from the military would have a more accurate perspective.
(us civilians may not have the ability to see the inner workings of the military the same way).
Maybe it's just politics or maybe there's more, idk.

[rican_nick]

+1 I dont know if any of you have ever served in the military, but when one or two people dont follow the chain, the link gets broken. Dont get me wrong, he seems like a cocky son of a bitch BUT if i knew that he got shit done, why would i bother him. Also, its a big BIG no-no to talk shit about the president..expecially when you have younger Soldiers lookin up to you
But with all that said, would i let him blow shit up? Fuck.Yea.

I'm not military.. but the Military/US Gov/Life.. etc. Shares a lot with the world of business. Just a whole lot bigger and lot less accountability.

[kingkilburn]

Also, its a big BIG no-no to talk shit about the president..expecially when you have younger Soldiers lookin up to you.


This is the part I don't like about it.

The president just happens to be the commander in chief. You can disagree with his politics and still follow his orders with out compromising your position as a soldier. But that is absolutely looked down on.

[D1champ]

Time to bring your boys home, plain and simple. 9 years kicking up dust in the desert and nothing to show for it but bodybags ain't what I can victory.

[kingkilburn]

The war in Afghanistan is working for the most part.

Iraq is a different story. The average Iraqi was better off before.

[ronmcdon]

Wrong or not, personally I appreciate the general's efforts.
As mentioned in some of the articles I read, it gives the public some idea of whats going on/transparency.
Why would it be bad that the US public is more aware of the politics & workings of the military?
Clearly military operations abroad effects us all, so theoretically I believe the public has the right to know.

I don't buy the argument that it's leaking out intelligence per se.
Seems like the gen might have been trying to be manipulative,
but if it's for the sake of saving our troops & protecting our miliatary, then I'm all for it.
To me, that's more important than Obama & Biden saving face.
I'd actually be uncomfortable if subordinates in government are in a situation where they don't feel comfy questioning their superiors.
Mind you this isn't a soldier on the battlefield questioning the commander.
Scrutiny here is all politics imo.

To me, this seems a bit unprofessional of McCrystal, but his intentions appear noble.
Not sure I can say the same about Obama or Biden (whom I've never cared for, tbh).

[fliprayzin240sx]

The problem you guys dont seem to understand (which most of you wont unless you've served), is that he actually broke an article of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Article 88 of the UCMJ: "Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct."

Maximum Punishment: Dismissal, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 1 year.

If he was just talking shit about the President during the course of a conversation, it could have been overlooked. But the fact that he was giving his piece of mind to a printed publication made his statement contemptous. Obama could have thrown the book at him and made more fuss out of it other than just firing him....he could have retired as an O-1 with no benefits...

[HalveBlue]

McChrystal wasn't fired because of the article; the article was merely the straw that broke the camel's back.

A lot of the "negative" comments in the article are attributed to anonymous aides to GEN McChrystal, not the General himself.

The situation in Afghanistan is pretty complex and fucked up: The Afghan government is corrupt; Afghan society is a mish-mash of dozens of different tribes that all have their own cultural histories and in many cases different languages; ISAF forces are left to deal with vague mission directives on how to (re)build a nation-state with people that are apathetic at best and hostile at worst.

The ISAF mission in Afghanistan is suffering from a horrible case of mission creep that has seen our mission the country go from hunting down Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaeda to trying to build a country.

There are many interesting parallels between our war in Afghanistan and our war in Vietnam, and I'm sure many of the officers that are in charge of the war effort these days (most of whom entered into the service post-Vietnam) are ever mindful of this fact.

Unfortunately, I don't think withdrawing from Afghanistan is the most prudent course of action. I think a lot of people have this idea that if we pull out of Iraq and the 'stan the world will go back to the way it was before September 11th, 2001. I do not share that opinion. I think people are ignorant of the multitude of things that are happening throughout the world (especially in the Middle and Far East) that are going to have a huge impact in the future. Afghanistan is only one aspect of a complex and multifaceted issue.

Anyway, I'd write more but I'll leave it at that for now.

For anyone that's interested, I posted a few links concerning the war in Afghanistan couple of months ago in the Iraq/Afghanistan thread.

I think they provide a basic primer for anyone interested in the topic:

http://zilvia.net/f/loud-noises/292260-iraq-afghanistan.html

[demonspeed]

This is the part I don't like about it.

The president just happens to be the commander in chief. You can disagree with his politics and still follow his orders with out compromising your position as a soldier. But that is absolutely looked down on.


i just think its kinda dumb that you cant say how you feel or say whats on your mind.

as far as Iraq and Afghanistan goes, we NEED to GTFO like yesterday. We did what we did, so let them handle their own affairs. I swear, i see the world like a big ass playground and the US is the teacher and all the other countries are kids...

fliprayzin240sx i forgot all about that Article so from a Military state of mind he got away scott free. Imagine doin what 15+ years and then get booted down...worst feeling ever

[kingkilburn]

You CAN say how you feel to your superior with permission. You CAN NOT talk shit behind his back.

[Drift N Dragg]

You CAN say how you feel to your superior with permission. You CAN NOT talk shit behind his back.

You know this from experience, I take it?

Now, being someone that is Prior Service and Still works for the GOV... I am tell you this ... You can NOT just tell your Superior how you " FEEL " with Permission....

Everthing you say has a recourse ... Especially if you tell it to there face .. that is the reason it is called ' Politics ' .. a bunch of people shit talking behind everyone's backs .. Happens everyday .. he just got caught ..

Note: Do not want to hear your ' Mother's ' military experience with expression of feeling... I WANT your account .. but since, I know already you have never served, you will not have this experience..

The Outside worls is alot different from the Military aspect ...

Now ofcoarse I am alreadying expecting you to take this the wrong way, as you usually do .. So I will give you the warning ahead of time..

This was not a personal jab, but you can not make assumptions based off lack of experience..

[kingkilburn]

You act like I lived in some sort of bubble and never conversed with a soldier.

When I was a teenager considering joining up I asked a shit ton of questions to a lot of different soldiers in different MOSs and ranks. This specific circumstance was one of my questions.


And you can tell them what you think but there is a time and place and a manor to do it in.

Of coarse ever thing you say has consequence or why else would you say anything. If you have any brains about you you will speak in a way that best serves your purpose. I think McCrystal thought he was going to get away with it again so he pushed it a little more. This time he pushed to much and it bite him in the ass.


This was not a personal jab, but you can not make assumptions based off lack of experience.

You make it personal when you bring my personal life into it. Maybe you should learn to respectfully disagree as well.

I'm not mad or anything btw.

[Drift N Dragg]

You act like I lived in some sort of bubble and never conversed with a soldier.

When I was a teenager considering joining up I asked a shit ton of questions to a lot of different soldiers in different MOSs and ranks. This specific circumstance was one of my questions.


And you can tell them what you think but there is a time and place and a manor to do it in.

Of coarse ever thing you say has consequence or why else would you say anything. If you have any brains about you you will speak in a way that best serves your purpose. I think McCrystal thought he was going to get away with it again so he pushed it a little more. This time he pushed to much and it bite him in the ass.




You make it personal when you bring my personal life into it. Maybe you should learn to respectfully disagree as well.

Based off a good poriton of your Posts.. One could only assume your bubble field ...

Again, talking to a solider and being one is a different story ... that's only one side of the actual event...

It wasn't personal because I didn't bring your " Personal " life into it, I just asked you to base your asnwer off your experiences.. thats all .. Didn't ask you to give me your underwear size or anything ...

Respectfully Disagree? Maybe you should take that advice for a good porition of your posts .. again, I can list numerous posts where you fail to " respectfully disagree " with someone .. Be it GenPop, Premie, Moderator, or Admin .. I am just saying .. everything can be misunderstood as Disrespectful.

So no, I will not Respectfully Disagree .. I, in turn, will state my opinion on the matter ...

Now on to what you wrote...

Yes, it did bite him in the ass .. But even saying something to a superior with extreme ' tact ' still has a harsh return .. The reason I say this is based of personal experience ...

I will share this with you - I, in my younger years as an enlisted man, told a officer off in a semi-tactful manner.. for doing something that could cause harm to myself and around 5 Ammo troops under his command .. Officer being a New 2nd LT, Better known as the Butter Bar, decided to play with a semi-armed Timed fuze for a leaf-let shell casing ... in the course of his Idiocy, he dropped the fuze .. After all was cleared and we reentered the work area, after changing all of our underwear, I proceeded to " tactfully " rip him a new ass .. Being a Fresh E-5 I felt it was my duty to explain his mess up ...

6 months of Suspended Rank, 6 Months fined 1/2 pay, and a Article 15 .. I feel that I should have not done what I did..

Now I did ask permission to speak freely .. but as you can see I still got the short end of the stick..

So in summary .. There is always a result and its usually never good, even if you are tactful .. if I was that General, I would have just kept my mouth shut .. Being a General last longer then a Presidential Term ..


EDIT: Saw your Edit ... Glad you are not Mad... Being able to freely talk and have a Civil Disagreement is always a good start ... It's when it becomes uncivil that things can go wrong ..

[TravisSW]

He should of gone out with a bang and strangled Obama.

Fuck that president.

/bad mood today lol

[fliprayzin240sx]

Hate to say it Kingkilburn...but until you've actually dealt with the military lifestyle and all the bullshit that comes with it, you'll never understand none of it. Somebody can explain what they do and have to do all day long but until you've experienced it or atleast seen it in action first hand, you cant possibly comprehend it.

Freedom and rights are given to all. The irony of it is that the military is built to protect those same freedom and rights, but the moment you put on the uniform, those same freedom and rights that we swore to protect dont apply to us. We either lose some of those rights or we get restricted as fuck.

Few examples: Our freedom of speech gets restricted when off the uniform and shit pretty much goes out the window when your in it. Talking to the media is a big NO-NO. Thats what Public Affairs is for. Military does not like us to talk to the media because it could be interpreted as the views of the military, not our own personal views or beliefs. There goes the First Amendment. Fourth Amendment is out the window when you live military housing, specially when youre single living in the barracks/dorms. Anybody can walk into your room, bring the dogs and do a search for drugs without your permission. Fifth and Sixth Amendments? UCMJ doesnt work that way, you get fucked off base (DUI is perfect example), what do you think the military will do to you after they found out you had a DUI off base, even after you paid your fines and everything else. Thats right, reprimand, loss of pay, loss of rank, additional duty, blah blah blah. Trial by Jury...HAHA...trial by the same jury that already see you as guilty from the get-go and having Area Defense Counsel defend you...good luck on that one. Prosecution very very very seldomly looses in a trial.

[kingkilburn]

I have seen it in action firsthand and I know all about a soldiers near utter lack of rights.

[Drift N Dragg]

I have seen it in action firsthand and I know all about a soldiers near utter lack of rights.

Yeah, But what he is trying to convey is the actual position you are put in..

Seeing something 1st Hand is one way to get a prospective on the situation.. But acutally being in that persons shoes, Being that person when you are just so furious and what to just Verbally Unleash on there butt, you hold your Military bearing and bite your tongue for the fear of the repercussion.

Seeing it may make you mad, But be that person standing there and you will get a better insight..

[kingkilburn]

I'm not looking for insight. I want to see the cause and effect.

I don't need to be in your shoes to understand the results.

[kingkilburn]

This needs dropped already. This thread was never meant to be about me.

If it continues like this it will and up with you being angry and me punished for it(not very fair is it?).

[Drift N Dragg]

the Information that was given to you is for a better insight ...

In this thread you use examples of what " You Deem " and state " How You " see things .. We just asked you to look at it from another angle ..

and what I was saying was geared torwards your Statement

You CAN say how you feel to your superior with permission. You CAN NOT talk shit behind his back.

Now if you have bad feelings torwards this, please let me know .. If you are looking for Cause and effect, please press on with your thread .... But when you respond to something someone said.. you will get a response.

Whether or not it is in your cause and effect, it is a response none the less.. and with your responses, it warrants a response .. Now you turning into some kind of angry cookie monster and being punished for your actions, is strictly up to you .. no one is going to make you write whatever it is you feel will get you in trouble.

At that, it kinda goes back to my point with the General and what he said.. You can say what you want, with or without permission, but remember, what you write may or may not get in you hot water ...

So what you write, if not something of a good nature or something that will get you introuble, is fair... Because, Just like the General, you have to take responsiblity of your actions .. whether Verbal or Typed ...

At that, I will end with this, since it seems to be upsetting...

Please continue ..

[kingkilburn]

You are pushing the issue and I wont back down from my position. You have continued to single me out for my view point and ignore the rest of the thread.

If you want to push I will push back.





You seem to have taken this statement;
You CAN say how you feel to your superior with permission. You CAN NOT talk shit behind his back.
As me giving every one free reign to mouth off to their superiors. That is not what I meant.

I can take your example. It was not your place to chew him out. It may have been better for you to take him aside and say what you have to say in regards to safety. At that point you still have good standing to go over his head to display to his superior why your life and their equipment should not be placed in his hands.


A different example would be your superior making a decision you don't agree with. In some instances you may have the opportunity to sway their decision without compromising their authority. You don't go blab to the nearest AFN reporter about how the guy is such an idiot for making the wrong decision.



P.S.
I'm not upset just annoyed.

[davirene]

Dammed if you do....dammed if you dont....

Take the press off the frontline......Let us do our jobs without the bullshit redtape!!!!

The enemy can torture, starve, and behead any of our troops captured..... We can then be hung out on display....wtf...


But we have to provide them with a cot and 3 meals aday.... They have even been quoted as saying they have better living conditions in our custody....

How can one win a war....when you have to walk on egg shells....

[fliprayzin240sx]

You can say anything whatever you want, as long as the wrong people doesnt hear or see it.

I can say "with all due respect" to anybody higher ranking than me but I better be prepared for the repercussion. There is always a repercussion in the military. May it be a quick "shut the fuck up" or may show up in my performance reports later down the road after I paint a bullseye on the back of my head for voicing my opinion.

[kingkilburn]

You have to make sure what you say is appropriate.

Of coarse if you say some stupid shit to your superior you will be in trouble.

[HalveBlue]

Like a good senior NCO used to tell me, "You can do anything you want, but you have to live with the consequences."

The presentation of your message is just as important as the content.

[VROOOM]

Hate to say it Kingkilburn...but until you've actually dealt with the military lifestyle and all the bullshit that comes with it, you'll never understand none of it. Somebody can explain what they do and have to do all day long but until you've experienced it or atleast seen it in action first hand, you cant possibly comprehend it.

Freedom and rights are given to all. The irony of it is that the military is built to protect those same freedom and rights, but the moment you put on the uniform, those same freedom and rights that we swore to protect dont apply to us. We either lose some of those rights or we get restricted as fuck.

Few examples: Our freedom of speech gets restricted when off the uniform and shit pretty much goes out the window when your in it. Talking to the media is a big NO-NO. Thats what Public Affairs is for. Military does not like us to talk to the media because it could be interpreted as the views of the military, not our own personal views or beliefs. There goes the First Amendment. Fourth Amendment is out the window when you live military housing, specially when youre single living in the barracks/dorms. Anybody can walk into your room, bring the dogs and do a search for drugs without your permission. Fifth and Sixth Amendments? UCMJ doesnt work that way, you get fucked off base (DUI is perfect example), what do you think the military will do to you after they found out you had a DUI off base, even after you paid your fines and everything else. Thats right, reprimand, loss of pay, loss of rank, additional duty, blah blah blah. Trial by Jury...HAHA...trial by the same jury that already see you as guilty from the get-go and having Area Defense Counsel defend you...good luck on that one. Prosecution very very very seldomly looses in a trial.

my brother is in the Army, he told me if you go out with someone(say to the bar one night) and the person you are with gets a DUI, you also recieve the same punishment. know anything about that?

[bb4_96]

^service branches are trying to hold whole groups accountable for individuals in group's issues to promote holding other people accountable. they do things like that in the af too.

[bb4_96]

way off topic though man

[UNISA JECS]

For one the General is a smart man else would have never became a general, he should have known better then to talk smack about his boss, hello!....If Obama didn't shit can him then Obama would loose face and respect for allowing his employee to talk smack about him, that stuff just can't fly. I think the General just got a lil to brave and cocky and know his not gonan be a general anymore. If your gonna talk shit or smack do it to there face in private, it works and you gain respect and dont get into trouble.

*No military man should be taking anything personally when it comes from a superior its all buisness baby, you might not like or agree but you gotta bite your tonge are pay the consequences, your paid to do a job, just do it and dont bitch you singed your life away and you knew it, all the way from Pvt to Gen.

[HalveBlue]

According to the Army Times:
Sources: Rolling Stone Quotes Made by Jr. Staff (http://www.armytimes.com/news/2010/07/army_rolling_stone_mchrystal_071210w/)

Sources: Rolling Stone quotes made by jr. staff

Mag also accused of misrepresenting communications with McChrystal’s HQ; e-mails support claim

By Sean D. Naylor - Staff writer
Posted : Thursday Jul 8, 2010 14:59:31 EDT

-"The impolitic comments that torpedoed Gen. Stan McChrystal’s career were “almost all” made by his most junior staff — men who “make tea, keep the principal on time and carry bags” — who had no reason to believe their words would end up in print, according to a staff member who was on the trip to Europe during which the comments were made.

Two other sources familiar with the trip, including Air Force Lt. Col. Tadd Sholtis, McChrystal’s personal spokesman, said the quotes that appeared in a Rolling Stone article that got McChrystal in trouble were made in “off-the-record” settings...(CONTINUES IN LINK)..."-

Guess some jr. staff officers forgot their SA. But I guess it matters very little now. McChrystal's gone.

[kingkilburn]

The "almost all" part is very telling and subjective.

[bb4_96]

we should speculate about what actually went down in unrecorded conversations.