Law School FTW!

[ineedone]

Hey guys!

Not sure if anyone else is currently putting themselves through absolute hell! Im a 1L at widener, 2 weeks left and then I get to remember what having a real life is like for a few weeks!

Well if anyone else is at widener (or anywhere else for that matter) hit up this thread I guess? PS. im liberal with sharing outlines so if anyone needs anything I might be able to help!

Also! if anyone else is going to be done around Cinco de Mayo, A few of us will be hitting up Westchester PA for some post final madness.

[rb26man]

not going but good shit bro

[RiversideS13]

i think this belong to regional thread?

[OptionZero]

Ah, 1L year. I can still remember it.

Sorry to break it to you bro, but if you think this sucks, it's gonna be 5X worse when you graduate and have to take the bar.

Think about it - right now, you have your 5 core classes and finals for each. The Bar Exam (At least in California, which is probably the toughest or 2nd toughest) is 3 days, 18 potential subjects or somethin). Basically take all of your 1st and 2nd year classes and HEY! We can test on any of them! get ready! By the way if you fail you have to wait 6 months to try again!

Then when you get your first job it'll be 10X worse because now you'll have clients and supervisors railing on your to get isht done (unless you get some cozy low stress civil job).

I just passed the July CA bar in Dec. Got my first job (criminal). Did 3 trials, was wicked awesome.

The legal profession is a job that comes with a shit ton of paperwork, but the real meat of our work takes place in our brains (at least, it should). To that end, you are really never at "off" of work, since fact patterns and law are constantly swirling on your head. I've awoken in the middle of the night far too often, just to write down some new idea I got.

Anyways, good luck. It gets better 2nd and 3rd year, then sucks during the BAR, gets better post-bar, then sucks when you get your first job. Peace.

[ineedone]

i think this belong to regional thread?

Law school is law school man! I have buddies at Georgetown and Yale and apart from those lucky bastards only being graded as pass/fail their first semester, we got the same books and same material!

Ah, 1L year. I can still remember it.

Sorry to break it to you bro, but if you think this sucks, it's gonna be 5X worse when you graduate and have to take the bar.

Think about it - right now, you have your 5 core classes and finals for each. The Bar Exam (At least in California, which is probably the toughest or 2nd toughest) is 3 days, 18 potential subjects or somethin). Basically take all of your 1st and 2nd year classes and HEY! We can test on any of them! get ready! By the way if you fail you have to wait 6 months to try again!

Then when you get your first job it'll be 10X worse because now you'll have clients and supervisors railing on your to get isht done (unless you get some cozy low stress civil job).

I just passed the July CA bar in Dec. Got my first job (criminal). Did 3 trials, was wicked awesome.

The legal profession is a job that comes with a shit ton of paperwork, but the real meat of our work takes place in our brains (at least, it should). To that end, you are really never at "off" of work, since fact patterns and law are constantly swirling on your head. I've awoken in the middle of the night far too often, just to write down some new idea I got.

Anyways, good luck. It gets better 2nd and 3rd year, then sucks during the BAR, gets better post-bar, then sucks when you get your first job. Peace.

Thanks for the "bright light at the end of the tunnel" speech! I had one of my friends not to recently give me the same sort of speech except his went more like "well at least if you screw up its just a grade and not your job!" the Cali BAR is definitely one of the top 5 hardest, I am looking at DC or MD as my home for a few years, but I have some time before I worry about the BAR.

I am telling you man, I have been paid to fight in a cage before, and I am still way more nervous walking into the exams then I ever was walking into a cage haha! Its tough, but its all worth it in the end (at least that is what I have tricked myself into thinking).

[tricky_ab]

My sister got her first Law school acceptance letter in the mail (I believe from University of Michigan I believe). I hope she knows what she's getting herself into as this market is REALLY saturated...

I also have a friend who's finishing up over at University of California Berkeley and he's got some crazy stories of people losing their minds (Some girl passing out during a exam, people losing crazy weight during exams and mock trials...I think he's writing the bar exam soon too...

[g6civcx]

Not to discourage you any more, but graduating and taking the bar is only the beginning.

When you get to your first job you will (I hope) get trained by a mid-level or senior associate. This is where you really sharpen your teeth.

Just keep your eyes open and be willing to learn things that may make no sense to you at first.

Good luck.

[aznpoopy]

law is so incredibly fucked right now, lol. if you are very early in law or just accepted, SERIOUSLY take some time to look at the market and re-evaluate your future. sad to say, for the vast majority of people, law school is not going to be worth the money.

The Hubris of Would-Be Lawyers « Above the Law: A Legal Tabloid - News, Gossip, and Colorful Commentary on Law Firms and the Legal Profession (http://abovethelaw.com/2010/04/the-hubris-of-would-be-lawyers/)

otherwise, good luck to you law students and fellow attorneys. shit is not what it used to be.

[ineedone]

My sister got her first Law school acceptance letter in the mail (I believe from University of Michigan I believe). I hope she knows what she's getting herself into as this market is REALLY saturated...

I also have a friend who's finishing up over at University of California Berkeley and he's got some crazy stories of people losing their minds (Some girl passing out during a exam, people losing crazy weight during exams and mock trials...I think he's writing the bar exam soon too...

Michigan is a great school! The best advice I have been given, and have been giving to others is to just keep your head and survive. Its going to be tough, you wont understand 90% of what is going on and its the most stressful thing you can do to yourself. It is fun though (yeah... my inner nerd is coming out) and as long as you do not freak yourself out you will do just fine! or your sis for that matter.

[ineedone]

law is so incredibly fucked right now, lol. if you are very early in law or just accepted, SERIOUSLY take some time to look at the market and re-evaluate your future. sad to say, for the vast majority of people, law school is not going to be worth the money.

The Hubris of Would-Be Lawyers « Above the Law: A Legal Tabloid - News, Gossip, and Colorful Commentary on Law Firms and the Legal Profession (http://abovethelaw.com/2010/04/the-hubris-of-would-be-lawyers/)

otherwise, good luck to you law students and fellow attorneys. shit is not what it used to be.

Not everyone coming out of law school wants to be a practicing attorney...The truth is going to law school (and graduating) opens up more doors and opportunities then you would ever have available with just a undergraduate degree (and I do not care what field you are in, add a JD to that and your instantly worth more to whoever may hire you). Worrying about the "debt" you acquire is no reason to not go to school, the debt you acquire will be paid back in inflated dollars (hell look at the Obamas, they just paid off their debt and I am pretty sure, no matter what your political views may be, no one can say either one of them is a failure in life).

If you are considering law school, make sure your ready to be put to the fire. If you can handle that you will be fine, and you will do fine after school. Not everyone has to be Jack McCoy from Law and Order ya know!

[aznpoopy]

first of all, jack mccoy sadly doesn't make good money. district attorneys make $50k and up, peaking under six figures.

i graduated law school in 2008, law review and good gpa. i am surviving.

i have friends who graduated with me.
very few are doing good in big firms. some got into big law from OCI, only to have their start dates pushed back or dropped. others have been laid off from big law. i have one friend who finally gave up on the US and had to move to japan to do patent work.

as for non-law fields, it's actually not universally easy to apply a law degree to a undergrad specialization. often times the JD will make you overqualified. or the JD is simply inapplicable. or, as usual, a job requires experience that one doesn't have because some of these people went straight from undergrad to law school.

If you are considering law school, make sure your ready to be put to the fire. If you can handle that you will be fine, and you will do fine after school.

it is absolutely not true that you will be fine just because you can make it through law school. alot of people are stuck in document review hell. alot of people are simply straight up unemployed. you know there are small firm attorney listings being listed for a pay 12-15 dollars per hour? and the ridiculous part of it all is that getting these jobs is actually kind of competitive.

if you are a brilliant and can make top 10% in a good school, go for it.
if you love law, go for it.
even better, if you are both of the above, definitely go for it.
if you are anyone else, you need a defined plan to come out of law school and make a living while not being crushed under your student loans. and you should start thinking and acting on said plan immediately.

you don't have to listen to me if you don't want to. but understand i am not trying to discourage you. i am giving you and anyone else reading the thread the heads up on what is going on with law right now.

[ineedone]

first of all, jack mccoy sadly doesn't make good money. district attorneys make $50k and up, peaking under six figures.

i graduated law school in 2008, law review and good gpa. i am surviving.

i have friends who graduated with me.
very few are doing good in big firms. some got into big law from OCI, only to have their start dates pushed back or dropped. others have been laid off from big law. i have one friend who finally gave up on the US and had to move to japan to do patent work.

as for non-law fields, it's actually not universally easy to apply a law degree to a undergrad specialization. often times the JD will make you overqualified. or the JD is simply inapplicable. or, as usual, a job requires experience that one doesn't have because some of these people went straight from undergrad to law school.



it is absolutely not true that you will be fine just because you can make it through law school. alot of people are stuck in document review hell. alot of people are simply straight up unemployed.

you don't have to listen to me if you don't want to. but understand i am not trying to discourage you. i am giving you and anyone else reading the thread the heads up on what is going on with law right now.

I completely understand what your saying man, it is a tough market, but not just for lawyers... so to infer law school as a mistake is really painting with to broad a brush. I am not under the impression that I will make 160k right out of school, I have friends who are doing that, and I have friends who are still looking for work. Its really tough, but would you rather be having the same struggle with just a BA in something? or the JD?

I still think if you can survive law school and do well, you will do well in the real world (yourself for example, I am sure you are doing well, hell its the middle of the day and your on car forums! I am assuming you are employed haha!) I guess it also depends on where you want to end up, location is a huge factor, for example your buddy heading to Japan (by the way, that doesn't really sound like he just gave up and had to go to Japan... that sounds like something awesome... could be me though).

When I think of non law fields and having the JD being gold, I am thinking of Not-for-profits and such, where they actually want lawyers. I personally know of quite a few lawyers who are directors, or in house counsel and doing quite well at not-for-profits. They get to practice all sorts of law as they field all the legal questions, plus its not 80 zillion hours a week like most associates in big firms. I have even heard some of them actually enjoy what they do! haha. True, getting a job at some bank or marketing firm your JD will make you over qualified or may not even be applicable, but if your main interest is just a job... I am willing to bet someone with a JD gets it over someone just getting out of undergrad...in most cases at least.

True Jack McCoy does not make huge bank, but I am willing to bet he has some sweet benefits! j\p man! my girl is a fed, has her masters, and makes decent money, but the benefits are where its at! (If I ever get really sick, I will be proposing type of benefits). I have been told from quite a few that if I have the opportunity to work for the Government, to take it. They say you actually get to use the law instead of pushing papers for a large firm. Those same people also said after a few years go to the private sector and multiply your salary 5x so you can actually enjoy life! haha.

[ineedone]

you know there are small firm attorney listings being listed for a pay 12-15 dollars per hour? and the ridiculous part of it all is that getting these jobs is actually kind of competitive.

if you are a brilliant and can make top 10% in a good school, go for it.
if you love law, go for it.
even better, if you are both of the above, definitely go for it.
if you are anyone else, you need a defined plan to come out of law school and make a living while not being crushed under your student loans. and you should start thinking and acting on said plan immediately.

12-15 an hour!!! no way, that has to be a joke... that is craigslist status! I am making more then that at an internship and I am just a 1L.

You do not need to be brilliant to be top 10% I am not there yet, but I am close, and I am no superstar. Its more about knowing how to tickle your prof's nuts (figuratively speaking) then it is actually knowing anything. The law is a lot of fun though, as much stress as school is, I really enjoy it everyday (or so I keep telling myself).

Loans are scary, but hopefully by the time I am done with school, and all my deferments run out, I will be making more then what the minimum payments are!!!!

[aznpoopy]

yeah my buddy isn't really a car guy or anything, so there wasn't a big draw to go to japan. i would personally love to trade spots with him though. for him, it was more of a "oh shit how i pay mortgage" deal. lol.

i am doing okay. i was doing better straight out of law school, then i did not so well when things tanked and clients went bye bye. now i am doing considerably better but not quite as good as initially. but i can't complain. it's not bad compared to what other people are going through.

in all seriousness though, it sounds like you've given it some thought and you know people in the industry. that's already better than alot of 1Ls. on that note, i wish you the best of luck.

[OptionZero]

A few things you should know:

- Being good at law school doesn't mean you're a good lawyer. There are people skills and analytical skills, time management skills, organizational skills, and speaking skills that simply cannot be taught at the law school level. The skills you learn in law school are the foundation upon which you'll build your lawyering ability. I got a C- in crim pro but have a DDA job and am at least competent at what I do. Very little of what I use at work came from law school; most of it came from mentors at internships. I interns every summer and semester after 1L year. I cannot overstate how useful that was to my current job.

- J.D does not equal $160k starting salary. That was a myth to begin with, and even more laughable now. The top 10 law schools used to be a ticket for that, but for people NOT in the top 10% of their classes it was a pipe dream.

- Money does not equal happiness. I went to law school to become empowered and to get a chance to refine, then flex some oral advocacy skills and do some mental gymnastics. The evidence code can be extremely tedius with its many exceptions, but as a trial attorney, I *have* to make it my bitch, and I find joy in that, even if I'm getting paid little. Conversely, if you luck into a $100-$120k starting job but you do nothing but hours of doc review with the POSSIBILITY of doing some bullshit depo on a case that will never get to trial. . . you will want to kill yourself. Some lawyers do, others think about it far too often.

- You should seriously think about what kind of law you want to practice. Talk to attorneys in different fields and just ask them what they spend their average day doing. I love my job even if I hate certain aspects of it because ultimately, it's never boring and I'll probably do 12 jury trials by the end of the year. That's a wicked pace and EXTREMELY hard on the psyche. The other end of the spectrum is complex appellate work, which is slow and boring (coincidentally, that's also hard on the brain). In between you have your family law lawyers dealing with high-strung people with delicate personal and emotional problems; personal injury plaintiffs firms, immigration law, employment law, housing law, civil rights law . . . and IP law, which i believe is what aznpoopy or g6civic does.

Find an area of law that you're passionate about, but be realistic. Some fields simply will not pay you. Are you ready to live a lifestyle that's not that glamorous? Do you *need* the brand new BMW, even if you're not happy at work (maybe you will be, who knows)?

For anyone thinking of getting into law school . . I'd say don't. My personal recommendation is only to go to law school if you're narcissistic enough to want the chance to show off, masochistic enough to want years and years of mental and physical pain, and stupid enough to accumulate huge debt along the way.

[ineedone]

A few things you should know:

- Being good at law school doesn't mean you're a good lawyer. There are people skills and analytical skills, time management skills, organizational skills, and speaking skills that simply cannot be taught at the law school level. The skills you learn in law school are the foundation upon which you'll build your lawyering ability. I got a C- in crim pro but have a DDA job and am at least competent at what I do. Very little of what I use at work came from law school; most of it came from mentors at internships. I interns every summer and semester after 1L year. I cannot overstate how useful that was to my current job.

Obviously when I say "if you do well in law school you will do fine in real life", I do not just mean getting good grades. I know just as well as you that a grade in a course has no real bearing on what you actually know about the law. Again, at least 50% of any exam is knowing your professors style and what they want to see.

- J.D does not equal $160k starting salary. That was a myth to begin with, and even more laughable now. The top 10 law schools used to be a ticket for that, but for people NOT in the top 10% of their classes it was a pipe dream.

- Money does not equal happiness. I went to law school to become empowered and to get a chance to refine, then flex some oral advocacy skills and do some mental gymnastics. The evidence code can be extremely tedius with its many exceptions, but as a trial attorney, I *have* to make it my bitch, and I find joy in that, even if I'm getting paid little. Conversely, if you luck into a $100-$120k starting job but you do nothing but hours of doc review with the POSSIBILITY of doing some bullshit depo on a case that will never get to trial. . . you will want to kill yourself. Some lawyers do, others think about it far too often.


Anyone who still thinks they can pull that kinda starting money, in this job market, is out of their mind. However, A really good friend of mine started out at 180k, and is making well over 300k now. He is a glorified paper pusher though and hates every minute of his job. But when you have some monster school loans (as he does UVA grad, top in his class as well) I guess it works out. Right now the only thing I am worried about is finals.

I am in law school so that I can help people. Sounds cheesey, but it is the truth. I also understand how many doors the J.D. opens, where I was headed before law school was a b.s. 9-5 job where I would worry about losing my job everyday. Not that right now that is any different in the legal community, but still worrying about these things with a J.D. is a lot better feeling then worrying about it without one. Loans aside (which are a legitimate concern) there just is no downside to getting a J.D. (if your truly motivated to put in the work for it).

- You should seriously think about what kind of law you want to practice. Talk to attorneys in different fields and just ask them what they spend their average day doing. I love my job even if I hate certain aspects of it because ultimately, it's never boring and I'll probably do 12 jury trials by the end of the year. That's a wicked pace and EXTREMELY hard on the psyche. The other end of the spectrum is complex appellate work, which is slow and boring (coincidentally, that's also hard on the brain). In between you have your family law lawyers dealing with high-strung people with delicate personal and emotional problems; personal injury plaintiffs firms, immigration law, employment law, housing law, civil rights law . . . and IP law, which i believe is what aznpoopy or g6civic does.

Find an area of law that you're passionate about, but be realistic. Some fields simply will not pay you. Are you ready to live a lifestyle that's not that glamorous? Do you *need* the brand new BMW, even if you're not happy at work (maybe you will be, who knows)?


Its funny you say that, I have heard the complete opposite advice from some, and the same advice from some. I know an ex Administrative Judge and Division Head, for the Armed Services Board of Contract Appeals. She told me to keep my options open and to not concentrate on just one area of law. I also have a friend/mentor who is the Director of a Not-for-profit in DC who told me exactly what you just said. Both extremely successful, both completely different advice!

Glamorous lifestyle? Oh man, I do not come from the greatest background I grew up in section 8, anything that pays more then minimum wage and I am a millionaire! Just kidding, I am more then realistic though. New BMW's are for choads (sorry if you have a BMW :whip:). I mean lets be honest, I have a s13, luxury is not my first joy!

For anyone thinking of getting into law school . . I'd say don't. My personal recommendation is only to go to law school if you're narcissistic enough to want the chance to show off, masochistic enough to want years and years of mental and physical pain, and stupid enough to accumulate huge debt along the way.

Shoot man you having a rough day or something? If you really look back on your decision to go, would you do it again? Would you rather be unemployed with a worthless undergraduate degree? I think not. Yes it is going to be lots of mental pain (physical? I was fighting for money before school so physical pain is something I am all for) and yes it cost money. I do not look at as a crushing debt, I look at it as an investment in my future. It is all worth it in the end and you know that man.

[ineedone]

P.S. Thank you for that little break from the books! That reply took quite some time!

[ZilviaKid]

stealth brag topic

[g6civcx]

Being good at law school doesn't mean you're a good lawyer...

OptionZero is probably the most analytical on this topic. He's right on.

If you're going for the money, don't do it. You can make much more money doing other stuff with much less work.

If you're going for the work, then get ready for the long haul.

J.D does not equal $160k starting salary. That was a myth to begin with, and even more laughable now. The top 10 law schools used to be a ticket for that, but for people NOT in the top 10% of their classes it was a pipe dream.

If you don't know how to make $100K+ now, you will not learn how in law school.

If you already know how to make $100K+ and you know what is needed, then law school can help you make $500K+.

IP law, which i believe is what aznpoopy or g6civic does.

I've already worked in the field for at least 5 years before I considered law school. You have to come in eyes wide open.

Every single law school grad has no idea what they're doing. That's talking from 10+ years of experience.

Every hot shot new attorney from top law school thinks they know what is going on, but when they first come in and face the real work, most of them crumble. You have to be very mentally strong and willing to learn new things.

For anyone thinking of getting into law school . . I'd say don't. My personal recommendation is only to go to law school if you're narcissistic enough to want the chance to show off, masochistic enough to want years and years of mental and physical pain, and stupid enough to accumulate huge debt along the way.

I couldn't agree more. I need law school because I hit my limit as a non-attorney practitioner.

Without a law degree, I could do everything an attorney can do except I cannot litigate in court. The most I could have done was be second chair to some second-rate attorney.

I personally need law school because it allows me to get paid more for what I'm already doing and what I already know how to do. Law school doesn't teach you how to practise.

My situation was that I am just as good as a senior associate, maybe even a partner, but without a law degree, I wouldn't get the salary and recognition compared with a law degree. That's the only reason I considered law school.

To be honest, I could teach the third year curriculum in IP law just as well as any associate professor probably could, but that's because I've already been doing this for so long. My experience is not typical.


The best experience you can get is spend about 1 year working as a paralegal in the type of law you think you want to do.

If after 6 months you still think you want to do it, then you are a good candidate for law school. You would have learned what is required to be a practising attorney.

It took me 5 years of working the legal field before I knew law school was right for me. It is not something you should take lightly.

[g6civcx]

But when you have some monster school loans (as he does UVA grad, top in his class as well) I guess it works out. Right now the only thing I am worried about is finals.


I missed the part that were local.

UVa is not a good law school for slackers. You can cruise through law school and rack up debt easily, and even if you graduate top of your class, you have a very hard time getting a good paying job.

I would rate Georgetown and GW, and maybe even GMU over UVa any day. I should know. I majored in everything there, including women study :)

And that's coming from a UVa alumnus so you know that was tough for me to say.

[g6civcx]

stealth brag topic

Who's bragging? The OP is complaining about how tough law school is, and we're all telling him not to do it because of how tough it is.

If we're bragging, then we're really bad at it :(

[ineedone]

I missed the part that were local.

UVa is not a good law school for slackers. You can cruise through law school and rack up debt easily, and even if you graduate top of your class, you have a very hard time getting a good paying job.

I would rate Georgetown and GW, and maybe even GMU over UVa any day. I should know. I majored in everything there, including women study :)

And that's coming from a UVa alumnus so you know that was tough for me to say.

I am not at UVA, I am at Widener in DE, but I may be heading to either American or GMU next semester.

We all know what UVA students do when they wake up in the morning...Steal someone's paper...haha j\k.

[ineedone]

Who's bragging? The OP is complaining about how tough law school is, and we're all telling him not to do it because of how tough it is.

If we're bragging, then we're really bad at it :(

I do not think I was complaining at all there buddy. School is tough, but in all honesty its not that tough. I am not planning on jumping off any bridges yet.

I still do not understand where you are coming from telling people they should not go to law school? If you are serious about it, there really is no reason to not go. Again, the "fear" of loans is not a reason to not go to law school. It is a huge decision and you must really be certain it is something you want, but once you have decided it is something you want, nothing else should get in your way. At least that has been my take on it and its working so far!

I know plenty of paralegals, most of which are classmates. They are not any more prepared then anyone else. Most do not even want to work in the firm in which they are currently at.

[aznpoopy]

I still do not understand where you are coming from telling people they should not go to law school? If you are serious about it, there really is no reason to not go. Again, the "fear" of loans is not a reason to not go to law school. It is a huge decision and you must really be certain it is something you want, but once you have decided it is something you want, nothing else should get in your way. At least that has been my take on it and its working so far!


that is certainly a good attitude, but i agree with g6.

there are many people in law school who are there for the wrong reasons.

i'm sure you can probably think of more than a few people in your own class who fall into this category.

[ZilviaKid]

Who's bragging? The OP is complaining about how tough law school is, and we're all telling him not to do it because of how tough it is.

If we're bragging, then we're really bad at it :(
lol, its such a brag topic dude

i should start a thread saying "man having a huge dick sucks" and see if you dont agree that its braging

[ineedone]

that is certainly a good attitude, but i agree with g6.

there are many people in law school who are there for the wrong reasons.

i'm sure you can probably think of more than a few people in your own class who fall into this category.

Yeah, I guess I feel the same. If you are going just to go, and not because it is something you truly want, then it is a mistake and more likely then not you wont make it through.

[ineedone]

lol, its such a brag topic dude

i should start a thread saying "man having a huge dick sucks" and see if you dont agree that its braging

Dude, I am totally bragging... I mean today alone I spent 8 hours in one spot at the library... I can smell your jealousy...:snoop: <--- that is how I have been turning the pages all day.

[godrifttoday]

wicked smart people (talent) get jobs with hign pay, good people with good grades try to get recruited or internships, people who pass apply for jobs.....

[OptionZero]

Shoot man you having a rough day or something? If you really look back on your decision to go, would you do it again? Would you rather be unemployed with a worthless undergraduate degree? I think not. Yes it is going to be lots of mental pain (physical? I was fighting for money before school so physical pain is something I am all for) and yes it cost money. I do not look at as a crushing debt, I look at it as an investment in my future. It is all worth it in the end and you know that man.

Rough day? Most of the days in my job are rough. I'm not complaining, I'm just being brutally honest. If you wanted a pep talk or a pat on the back, you're in the wrong forum. No hate, just tuth.

I do not think I was complaining at all there buddy. School is tough, but in all honesty its not that tough. I am not planning on jumping off any bridges yet.

I still do not understand where you are coming from telling people they should not go to law school? If you are serious about it, there really is no reason to not go. Again, the "fear" of loans is not a reason to not go to law school. It is a huge decision and you must really be certain it is something you want, but once you have decided it is something you want, nothing else should get in your way. At least that has been my take on it and its working so far!

I know plenty of paralegals, most of which are classmates. They are not any more prepared then anyone else. Most do not even want to work in the firm in which they are currently at.

1) Following your dreams
Where do I get off telling people not to go to law school? How bout having gone to law school and graduated as well as having done extensive tutoring of high school and college students before law schools.

As much as we want to believe in the "follow your dreams" rhetoric that makes regular people feel warm and fuzzy, it's total bullshit. What your dreams are can only be a factor in how you make decisions; if it's your only factor, then you're hopelessly naive.

Do not go to law school if you are not prepared to deal with the financial consequences. If you do not have savings or parents or other resources, you will probably be eating six figure loans upon graduation. The chances of making enough to cover that are not good. You are walking into debt.

The only way that going to law school is a good decision is if you don't mind living a low-middle class lifestyle while doing legal work.

The worst part of the legal field is too many people going into that field with no idea of what they're getting into, then being killed by sticker shock upon graduation.

That's why the housing market burst. People bought homes they couldn't afford, and banks were all too happy to help these people bury themselves. Stupidity + enablers = compounded mistakes.

Law schools are sadly much the same. They're happy to hit you with tuition without considering whether students will ever be able to handle the loans necessary to make out those checks. Most of 'em won't even be good attorneys as a result.

You don't have to fear fire, but you do have to acknowledge that it can fuck you up. You don't 'have to fear loans, but anyone who doesn't realize they can fuck you up is an idiot.

2) Don't go to law school
I think my advice is doubly sound - not only am i trying to make people do some fucking math before shouldering $100k in loans, but i'm weeding out the spineless, lazy cowards who want to go to law school for fun and games. It ain't.

Law is serious business. I became a lawyer to be a good lawyer. I became a lawyer to do justice. I did not become a lawyer to fuck around.

If someone is scared off of going to law school because I told them it was going to be expensive and painful, then great. They were probably too mentally weak to handle it anyway OR they just got saved from monster debt. Either way, i'm doing the world a favor.

Conversely, anyone that is willing to go to law school despite being told of just how ridiculous it is might just be man enough to succeed at this job. Afterall, a lawyer is an advocate. First step to doing that is having some balls to take a challenge. Until galileo came along, it didn't take any balls to support the Flat Earth society.

3. Paralegals not being more prepared
Maybe.

But you're still in law school. Paralegal experience is pretty worthless in law school . . .yet we've already agreed that law school is nothing like the actual practice of law.

Your paralegal friends might not have any edge IRACing your first LRW assignment, but when you get your first job and a supervisor tells you to pull a casefile, submit a motion, get proof of service, that paralegal friend of yours can probably navigate all the computer progams necessary to do so, call the right people, find the proper window in the court house, and come back with stamped paperwork faster than you can. They'll probably have time to teach you how to do it along the way, without even breaking a sweat.

Don't hate on the support staff experience.

4) Keeping your options open
Another platitude that sounds great, but is only a bit helpful. If you spend each summer/semester in a different area of law (i.e. one semester employment law, couple semesters on law review, another summer studying abroad), you might see a buncha different areas of law and find one you're interested in . . . but you might not have any actual skills do perform in that area of law.

I was exactly the opposite. I knew more or less exactly what i wanted to do (crim law, trial attorney) and i was a laser beam during my job searches

1L summer i worked at a public defender's office doing Juvenile delinquency law
2L fall i worked for a 2nd Amendment research group (firearms legislation)
2L spring i worked for a superior court judge, criminal division, who did preliminary hearings
2L summer I worked for state AG's office doing criminal appeals
3L fall i worked at the state AG's office helping on a homicide trial
3L spring i worked for a DA's office doing law and motion
post-bar i worked for a different DA's office on the gangs unit

By the time I started my job, I had hit all three sides of the criminal bench (judge/defense/prosecutor), written and argued criminal appeals, conducted evidentiary hearings at the trial court level, and worked in both small misdemeanors and ridiculously complex gang felonies.

People at work think I'm some kinda robot because I can help them with pretty much any random issue that pops up . . . and it's not because I'm smart, it's because I've seen a whole fucking lot of shit. I was just as fuckin confused about things as they were, except that I had the chance to learn some lessons along the way and can pass on the knowledge.

That was a long rant, but I was too lazy to make it short. Here's the best advice I ever got and can ever give:

In every place you work and in every assignment you're given, learn at least one new skill. Don't stop learning, never be satisfied just because you can do the job you're currently asked to do.

When you no longer care about getting better, leave the legal profession. This job requires you to be a teacher (to your clients, the court, or a jury) and a student at the same time, all the time.

[OptionZero]

lol, its such a brag topic dude

i should start a thread saying "man having a huge dick sucks" and see if you dont agree that its braging

Fuck yes I'm going to brag that I graduated from law school and passed the California bar and have a job.

Each of these things take huge effort and is an accomplishment. (Unless your parents got in you into an ivy league school
through some blue blood hookups, that school does not use grades, and you passed some bullshit 2 day bar exam besides NY's . . in which case, not really.)

Not everyone that does these things is a good person, you don't need to like them or even look up to them, but you should respect what they've done.

Med school might be rougher in some respects.

[tricky_ab]

There's some great info in this thread that I'm going to pass along to my sister...thanks guys :)

[aznpoopy]

passed the California bar and have a job.
...
you passed some bullshit 2 day bar exam besides NY's


passed NY (and bs NJ) and got a job

high five

[OptionZero]

did u do the three day NY + NJ thing? heard its pretty common, since the days are lined up specifically for that

[aznpoopy]

yeah. killed it all in one shot. that whole summer is a blur though. i remember taking a ferry across the hudson and walking into jacob javits center. i don't remember taking the exam at all. was nj the third day? must have been. i wanted to prep for it but i was too tired. went in blind with ny knowledge only, lol.

[WanganRunner]

Both my parents are lawyers, but I didn't really have any interest in it.

I'm in an MBA program right now, and compared to law school, an MBA is bottles and models. Oddly, it seems that finance is a better place to be working right now relative to law. I'm in real estate private equity, and even in DC (not the center of the universe), there are quite a few jobs starting to pop up, although I'm staying put where I am.

Hope things pick up for you guys.

[OptionZero]

my friend was in the JD/MBA program. He said one of his finals for an MBA class was to read this book and then tell the class what he thought of it.

I lol'd.

[ineedone]

That was a long rant, but I was too lazy to make it short.
wait what? haha Just kidding man!

I completely agree with you. If your not in it for the long haul, its not the place for you. I guess you were looking at it more in the terms of people who think of law school as just a way to make a big paycheck(.... if only that were the case). I on the other hand do not fall into that category. Trust me I do not need any pats on the back, though a pep talk here and there (and any advice!) does not hurt.

Most of my friends who are practicing in Philly or NJ do the three day test. It just makes sense, seeing as the extra day is only about half as long as the other days (or so I have heard).

MBA are great if they come from the right school (Thunderbird for example) but as a general statement, they are about as useful as the paper they come on. Most "business schools" now offer MBA in 4.5 years. I liken it to the generation before us had to have a high school diploma to get a entry level job, then the next had to have a BA to get a entry level, now you have to have some sort of graduate degree to make a whopping 30k a year...

my friend was in the JD/MBA program. He said one of his finals for an MBA class was to read this book and then tell the class what he thought of it.

I lol'd.

How great would it be if my professor said "ok class, now that I have talked about property for a semester, instead of taking a final, you have to write me a paper about what you think about property"

and my paper would consist of one sentence. This shit is ridiculous. A+?

[g6civcx]

people who think of law school as just a way to make a big paycheck

I need law school to get a bigger paycheck. That's not the only reason but that's one of the big reasons.

I bill 60 hours a week to the client, and that's before internal stuff like meetings, training, tech issues, etc.

It's like having 2 full time jobs and zero time off.

[WanganRunner]

my friend was in the JD/MBA program. He said one of his finals for an MBA class was to read this book and then tell the class what he thought of it.

I lol'd.

LOL, yeah, I haven't experienced anything quite like that.

My program is very quant heavy. Lots of models, lots of statistics, valuation, etc. It's a lot easier than what I have to do at work, however.

[butters149]

hmm some good info in this thread, i agree with also. i work in the law field for a pretty big firm, it seems like their summer associates and new associates are from top tier schools and im pretty sure they are the top of their classes too that KNOW which field they want to specialize in. That's the big thing I heard about working for these big firms, they want you to specialize.

I know a few people who get into law and regret it because they did not know what they were getting into, but overall it is not bad, the thing I love so far from working here is that amount of professionalism I experienced, I don't think any other field will have the same amount of professionalism as in the law field.

Law is great here, associates will usually take the heap of the work while partners will try and bring in business, at the end of the day it's just a business, you do your job to the top of your ability because when it comes time for review, all your statistics, billable hours, etc will show itself.

Also here is what I've read but not sure if it's true, if you worked for a big law firm and already specialized in a field i.e litigation or real estate, and you quit to go work for a business as part of the general counsel, that it is very hard to go back to a law firm.

[aznpoopy]

that's probably true, unless you're going back in at partner level (i.e. you have rainmaker status). then again, anyone who goes from biglaw to in-house corporate has probably burned out and/or gotten sick of big law anyway. don't really see why anyone would go back at that point.

[Bricksquad1017]

dam you say you dont do well wtf how did my attorney i just had costed about 3000 just for retainer and then 400 dollars a hour where are the cheap attorney lol gl with the bar test though bro

[g6civcx]

dam you say you dont do well wtf how did my attorney i just had costed about 3000 just for retainer and then 400 dollars a hour where are the cheap attorney lol gl with the bar test though bro

For an average attorney, $1,500 of that retainer goes directly to the partners. Probably another $500 goes to corporate for overhead.

$3,000 sounds like a lot, but the actual attorney's cut is only about $500-600 at most after tax.

Plus he's probably only getting $100-150 per hour off of that $400.

It's brutal. The big bosses take all of the money. You're just paying into the machinery. The actual people who are helping you first hand don't actually make that much.

[ineedone]

I am done with finals! Jesus, it is nice to finally see the sun again, and to not have to wake up and go directly to a dark corner in a library!

I have 2 summer courses that start in June, Crim Pro and Fed Income Tax, if anyone has any pre-class reading material let me know! Nerd central, population me.....

[ZenkiKid]

Im a criminal justice major at SDSU and I was thinking about entering the Jag program in the Navy in case things dont go well with me finding a job after I get my Bachelors. I heard that the Jag program is harder to get into than law school is that true?

[ineedone]

Im a criminal justice major at SDSU and I was thinking about entering the Jag program in the Navy in case things dont go well with me finding a job after I get my Bachelors. I heard that the Jag program is harder to get into than law school is that true?

I think you have to finish, or at least be in, law school to do JAG... not positive though. It is quite competitive to get in though.

[aznpoopy]

I am done with finals! Jesus, it is nice to finally see the sun again, and to not have to wake up and go directly to a dark corner in a library!

I have 2 summer courses that start in June, Crim Pro and Fed Income Tax, if anyone has any pre-class reading material let me know! Nerd central, population me.....

funny you should ask

Amazon.com: Chirelstein's Federal Income Taxation: A Law Student's Guide to the Leading Cases and Concepts (Concepts and Insights) (Concepts and Insights Series) (9781587783807): Marvin A. Chirelstein: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Chirelsteins-Federal-Income-Taxation-Students/dp/1587783800)

[ineedone]

funny you should ask

Amazon.com: Chirelstein's Federal Income Taxation: A Law Student's Guide to the Leading Cases and Concepts (Concepts and Insights) (Concepts and Insights Series) (9781587783807): Marvin A. Chirelstein: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Chirelsteins-Federal-Income-Taxation-Students/dp/1587783800)

Chirelstein's contracts book was great man! I read the entire thing (it was only about 200 pages) in two days! I will definitely be picking it up, thanks again man!

Just as a side note, my Contracts prof loved The Office and The Simpsons so much that both essay questions involved the characters and actual episodes of each. Now I can not watch either show without somehow working in a discussion about the law into whatever is happening on the shows. My friends all hate me, and no one wants to argue with me anymore.... from what I hear that means I am doing well in law school.

[aznpoopy]

likewise man.

i saw some commercial where some guy drops a paint bucket, a walker byer slips on it, then some guy is so surprised he lets go of his cart of apples which trundles out into a street with moving vehicles. all i could think of was tort tort tort

glad you found his book useful. i found it much clearer and easier to understand than the lecture, which, ironically, was taught by chirelstein himself. O_o

[ineedone]

So I think I am becoming a Tax geek. Does anyone know what that area of law is like in the real world? Our Prof told us about 90% of people who end up in the Tax courts go per se (because tax attorneys are usually high dollar). Seems like there may be a market if your not necessarily in it to make a zillion dollars but to help people out. I have also learned the IRS may possibly be one of the strongest agencies... from what I have seen so far... I mean I can make anything compensation if I twist the facts enough!

[g6civcx]

Our Prof told us about 90% of people who end up in the Tax courts go per se (because tax attorneys are usually high dollar).

per se: by, of, or in itself or oneself or themselves : as such : intrinsically, being such inherently, clearly, or as a matter of law

pro se: on one's own behalf : without an attorney

Just FYI.

[aznpoopy]

its boring. my mom is a career IRS agent.

she does surprisingly lawyer-like things in her day to day. and tax code is boooooorrring.

[g6civcx]

its boring. my mom is a career IRS agent.

she does surprisingly lawyer-like things in her day to day. and tax code is boooooorrring.

Patent law is better?

[aznpoopy]

point taken, lol.

[ineedone]

per se: by, of, or in itself or oneself or themselves : as such : intrinsically, being such inherently, clearly, or as a matter of law

pro se: on one's own behalf : without an attorney

Just FYI.

.....owned.....

[ineedone]

its boring. my mom is a career IRS agent.

she does surprisingly lawyer-like things in her day to day. and tax code is boooooorrring.

My Prof was an IRS agent for 5 years before going to a large firm. From what I have gathered from just about every government lawyer you get a lot of real lawyerish(?) experience, however, most of those people want to make real money and leave after a few years to make the big bucks.

Either way, I think it is interesting... I could always be a crooked tax attorney and consult drug lords on how to claim their income from illegal activities... No one wants to end up like Capone!