The true equilizer......

[anthony240]

One word: Support

There is not much aftermarket support for the SR20DET here in the US because it is a Japanese engine. Japanese engines need Japanese parts that come from Japan &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/eh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':eh:'> . The same for the KA, it is not considered a race engine or whatever, worthy to tune. I don't even know if it is available overseas. It most likely is, but because of the distinction of the SR, it is overshadowed. And unlike the SR, it is not built in the aspect of it to handle turbo, even tho it can.

Even tho there aren't that much high-powered SR's here, there are plenty in Japan.

[White240sx]

I can think of a few SR cars that are in the low 12's. Greaser's car will probably be in the 11's soon; Yury shouldn't be far behind either. The SR market is larger by far, but only a handful of people in the US have full access to it (and their intentions don't really lie in drag racing), where as the KA market is pretty much grass roots home built stuff. Also the lack of decades of domestic racing experience with the SR (Sunbelt, Malvern, Rebello, JWT) prevents you form being able to pick up the phone and call one of the Nissan specialty shops and have all your questions answered. And as a side note, the S-chassis cars aren't the only cars that are running the SR. Some of the best examples you will find are going to be in dimes(McKinney as a projected 9 second SR example) and roadsters.

Just give it time; I predict by the end of this year there will be a few Texas SR’s stirring some things up as well as a few SoCal cars that are really going to stir the community. (So get busy with your KA-T! <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'> )

[boosteds14]

<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':angry:'> &nbsp;sr <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':angry:'>
<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> ka <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

[ca18guy]

Actually it looks like a swap is as cheap if not cheaper then a turbo kit, let's compare some prices you could find on the net....

Unstable-Hybrids (http://www.unstable-hybrids.com/sr20detinstall.html) Will install a SR20DET for $4050.

A FMAX Stage 1 kit all buy itself not installed costs $3999 at Rollhard.com (http://www.rollhard.com/240sx.htm) or the NSport which costs $3300 not installed. So the price for over the counter turbo kits looks more then having a SR installed, of course they give you more power then having a stock SR put in, so it's a trade off.

[White240sx]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AceInHole @ Mar. 07 2002,1:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In all reality, I'd like an FJ20ET <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sly.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':sly:'></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Demon makes a good point about those.....but it still wouldn't stop me from playing with one. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

[crazycuban]

Heh...

Kinda ironic to me...while the JDM crazy makes it trendy to get the SR, it also seems like its become the trend for a lot of people recently to trash the SR.

The point is, whether SR, CA, or KA, neither engine is better. &nbsp;They all have their strong and weak points. &nbsp;The power curve on the CA beats the shit out of the KA or SR power curve - that thing is PERFECTLY linear. &nbsp;The KA beats either in terms of torque, and the strength of the block. &nbsp;The SR beats either in that its the only one thats proven (not in the US, in the world) to be a true monster.

You can say all you want about the KA having more horsepower than the SR. &nbsp;I really couldn't care less. &nbsp;Formula 1 engine builders used 1.5 liter turbo engines to make over 1000 hp - would I put this in a street car? &nbsp;Never. &nbsp;The highest stock bodied KA car I've seen runs high 10's. &nbsp;The highest stock bodied SR car I've seen runs 8's. &nbsp;Civics with 650 hp run 9 second quarter miles. &nbsp;Supras with near 1000 run 9 second quarter miles.

Same goes with the KA - wow, lots of low end torque. &nbsp;Thats great. &nbsp;With that much torque, why didn't Duy get a time better than the high 10's? &nbsp;Hmmm...maybe that torque is useless on the street? &nbsp;Maybe it only causes wheelspin with that much low end torque? &nbsp;People talk about the KA being a much better "street" engine than the SR. &nbsp;But if you're talking about high power, I'd rather have an engine that will build the power to the top than one that has all of its power down low. &nbsp;Already when the torque hits on my SR the wheels break loose.

I didn't put in an SR because its "JDM". &nbsp;I didn't pay 5000 bucks to get it installed. &nbsp;You guys make pretty big generalizations. &nbsp;I installed it myself, with help from friends, of course. &nbsp;I paid a good deal of money, but that was because the engine I got. &nbsp;If I would have done a red top, I could have had 200 rwhp (and actually, only ONE KA turbo kit claims to make over 200 rwhp - the others measure in crank hp) for 3500 bucks. &nbsp;2000 for the engine, 1500 for an exhaust, boost controller, and intercooler. &nbsp;

The SR is the engine for JDM ricers.

The KA is the engine for trendy people trying too hard to be different.

[White240sx]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AceInHole @ Mar. 08 2002,12<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">what... like how if you break an oil pump or something you're basically screwed for months/ years looking for a replacement?? naaah.... that doesn't worry me. LoL</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
He made a point about how many do you see running around with more than 500hp. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

The oil pick-up will probably be broken anyway, as it seems that the deep sump is notorious for denting easily.

But other than that you've got a great platform for power (relatively inexpensive too). A .63 A/R T-3 on the exhaust side and a 7.5:1 C/R means all that you need are a T04E compressor, injectors (and electronic compensation), FMIC, and piping (intercooler and exhaust), and you are good for 350hp+. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>

[White240sx]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AceInHole @ Mar. 08 2002,12:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The other odd thing is that the stroker kit for the FJ makes an FJ24(D)ET... nice how the legends are 2.4L <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
The first FJ motor was in a Group B rally S12 and it was specified as a 300hp FJ24E. So not only are legends 2.4 liter, they are also N/A. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'> &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

The Australian crowd is still pretty hardcore about their FJ's. A lot of racing cars there use the FJ20, whether it be drag, short oval or dirt track. And speaking of Australian drag racing, there is a twin S/C'd 10,000rpm FJ20 powered rail that runs low 7's there. http://www.datnet.org/new/videos/fjrail.avi &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

[crazycuban]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (sykikchimp @ Mar. 09 2002,10:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AmericanBornSilvia @ Mar. 09 2002,12:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (crazycuban @ Mar. 08 2002,4:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The SR is the engine for JDM ricers.

The KA is the engine for trendy people trying too hard to be different.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Says it all right there, yes we are all lose. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Umm... not only is that statement ignorant, but also incorrect. How can someone be trendy, and different??? You contradict yourself. The KA is for people that like a challenge with good results. The KA is harder to get running turbo'ed. It is Definately more of a challenge to tune, and it's more likely something will be done incorrectly and you'll blow something up. But when push comes to shove, and you have laid out the time and money and done the labor yourself, you will have a beast that you can truly be proud of, and will more than likely nose out any SR with the same money. Espesially if you go about the way I plan too, and Ace. Peice it together. So your statement about the KA is incorrect. Should be:

The KA is the engine for the 240sx (not 180sx) enthusiest.

and you statement about the SR is right on.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
How can someone be trendy, yet different? &nbsp;I would say that it's trendy to be different right now.

Well, as I have an SR, and I don't consider myself a ricer, then maybe you could have figured out that that whole statement was sarcastic. &nbsp;I personally respect both engines very much, and was only saying that because people saying the KA-T is better were implying that the SR is for JDM ricers...I don't actually think the KA-T is for trendy assholes, I just said that to show how ridiculous it is to say that the SR is for JDM ricers.

And what you just said is totally ridiculous. &nbsp;I don't know what you run in your car, but say that the statement about the SR is right on? &nbsp;Show some respect. &nbsp;My SR powered car, and a whole lot of peoples SR powered cars are much faster than yours.

"When push comes to shove, and you have laid out the time and money and done the labor yourself, you will have a beast that you can truly be proud of"...

Yeah, and thats exclusive to the KA and all, considering that my SR install took place in my garage...but I can't be truly proud of it or anything, because its so easy compared to the KA-T.

The KA-T more of a challenge to tune? &nbsp;More of a challenge to run right, maybe, but I'd say that the reason the SR isn't as fast in the states is because people don't have tuning experience like they do in Japan.

Yeah, KA-T peeps need to get over their big "no replacement for displacement" dicks and realize that there are a lot of SR powered cars that can beat the shit out of and KA-T car you see out there; &nbsp;SR peeps need to get over their big "JDM" dicks and realize that just because its torquey and relatively low-revving doesn't mean that its a bad engine - I haven't seen an SR built in the states that can beat the fastest KA-T.

Get over yourselves...any way you go, you'll have a great engine, that suits your purposes. &nbsp;Don't tell me that the KA-T is better, that it generates more pride - I built my car with my two fuckin hands, I'm proud, and I knew I used the engine that was best for me - not the one that was best for aceinhole or sykikchimp. &nbsp;I like high end hp over low end torque - so therefore, I'd rather have the SR.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (crazycuban @ Mar. 08 2002,4:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Heh...

Kinda ironic to me...while the JDM crazy makes it trendy to get the SR, it also seems like its become the trend for a lot of people recently to trash the SR.

The point is, whether SR, CA, or KA, neither engine is better. They all have their strong and weak points. The power curve on the CA beats the shit out of the KA or SR power curve - that thing is PERFECTLY linear. The KA beats either in terms of torque, and the strength of the block. The SR beats either in that its the only one thats proven (not in the US, in the world) to be a true monster.

You can say all you want about the KA having more horsepower than the SR. I really couldn't care less. Formula 1 engine builders used 1.5 liter turbo engines to make over 1000 hp - would I put this in a street car? Never. The highest stock bodied KA car I've seen runs high 10's. The highest stock bodied SR car I've seen runs 8's. Civics with 650 hp run 9 second quarter miles. Supras with near 1000 run 9 second quarter miles.

Same goes with the KA - wow, lots of low end torque. Thats great. With that much torque, why didn't Duy get a time better than the high 10's? Hmmm...maybe that torque is useless on the street? Maybe it only causes wheelspin with that much low end torque? People talk about the KA being a much better "street" engine than the SR. But if you're talking about high power, I'd rather have an engine that will build the power to the top than one that has all of its power down low. Already when the torque hits on my SR the wheels break loose.

I didn't put in an SR because its "JDM". I didn't pay 5000 bucks to get it installed. You guys make pretty big generalizations. I installed it myself, with help from friends, of course. I paid a good deal of money, but that was because the engine I got. If I would have done a red top, I could have had 200 rwhp (and actually, only ONE KA turbo kit claims to make over 200 rwhp - the others measure in crank hp) for 3500 bucks. 2000 for the engine, 1500 for an exhaust, boost controller, and intercooler.

The SR is the engine for JDM ricers.

The KA is the engine for trendy people trying too hard to be different.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
People trashing the SR??? That's not a trend. It's just a bunch of folks that refuse to buy into the hype you bought into.

Powerband: well, the KA beats the CA and SR in power and torque normal aspirated. Then if you boost all engine at 7psi, well, guess what, the KA will still beat the CA and SR. Why? Displacement... Nothing more, nothing less. Pure physics.

highest stock bodied, non full racing SR car runs 10s... Not 8's. Jun's car is a race car. Period. Duy's former car is a stock bodied, non full racing car. It's a street car. It is stupid to compare a street car against a stockbodied race car... dumb.

As for civics and Supras running 9's with different hp, well, haven't you heard of weight??? Power to weight ratio? Guess not.

Why didn't Duy's car get better than 10's? 3,000lbs as raced with full stereo? Street car trim? stock transmission? stock head? stock cams!!!! Which part of that is hard to imagine. His engine build is very straight forward and simple with piston and rods swapped.

Highend power, easy to get with a KA. Get rid of it's narrow stock cams... Simple as that... The engine, intake manifold, and cams are all setup for midrange torque and power.

And as for: "Already when the torque hits on my SR the wheels break loose." Well, if that happens, you need to tighten down your lug nuts... <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'> &nbsp;Or get better tires... Heck, I can break the tires loose on a geo metro... Does that make the Geo powerful? No, it just means it has crappy tires...

For someone who generalizes quite a bit, you are complaing about others who are generalizing... sheesh..

As for the KA being for the trendy folks... Whatever... Its more like it's for the folks who are original and don't buy into hypes. We don't try too hard to be different. We just do it, because it makes much more sense...

As for TY's 300hp, get it straight... it's 365hp @ 6,000rpm or [email protected] 6,000rpm with 329ft-lb @ 4,300rpm. All that with the following invested:
$2,800 - used stage 2 system
$200 - used ecu to replace the one from the original car
$350 - HKS Twinpower ignition unit
$100 - Magnecore wires
$365 - Nissan Motorsport cams
$600 - A'PEXi GT Spec Exhaust

As for fresh off the showroom floor, what does that have to do with the power level of the motor? Isn't all cars at one point fresh off the showroom floor??? Silly folks....

As for built KAs, there is now a handful that are 400rwhp level...

As for lower powered SR in the US, booo to those who claim there hasn't been much development time... It's like crying the grapes are sour because you couldn't reach them... Silly... By claiming that, you basically slap the SE-R folks in the face...

For years, the argument for the SR folks is how the SR has this and that from this and that in aftermarket support, and now within the past couple of months when the higher powered KA's are showing up, folks are now crying that there isn't much support for the SR... Whatever... Crybabies... Whatever happen to those folks who always says there are tons of support for the SR? There are definetly more support... It's just folks are being silly and trying to find an excuse to defend why their beloved SR can't make the "hype" horsepower...

For years the KA camp had to fight the hype of the SR. The KA was overcasted by the shadow of the SR's achievement and no one really took a look at it... Now, the KA camp is well established, and the SR folks are scrambling... Who would've thought.... too funny...

SR: Silly Ricers...
KA: Knowledgable Assholes

TonKA Truck Power!!!!

[ca18guy]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Guest @ Mar. 10 2002,7:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (crazycuban @ Mar. 08 2002,4:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Heh...

Kinda ironic to me...while the JDM crazy makes it trendy to get the SR, it also seems like its become the trend for a lot of people recently to trash the SR.

The point is, whether SR, CA, or KA, neither engine is better. They all have their strong and weak points. The power curve on the CA beats the shit out of the KA or SR power curve - that thing is PERFECTLY linear. The KA beats either in terms of torque, and the strength of the block. The SR beats either in that its the only one thats proven (not in the US, in the world) to be a true monster.

You can say all you want about the KA having more horsepower than the SR. I really couldn't care less. Formula 1 engine builders used 1.5 liter turbo engines to make over 1000 hp - would I put this in a street car? Never. The highest stock bodied KA car I've seen runs high 10's. The highest stock bodied SR car I've seen runs 8's. Civics with 650 hp run 9 second quarter miles. Supras with near 1000 run 9 second quarter miles.

Same goes with the KA - wow, lots of low end torque. Thats great. With that much torque, why didn't Duy get a time better than the high 10's? Hmmm...maybe that torque is useless on the street? Maybe it only causes wheelspin with that much low end torque? People talk about the KA being a much better "street" engine than the SR. But if you're talking about high power, I'd rather have an engine that will build the power to the top than one that has all of its power down low. Already when the torque hits on my SR the wheels break loose.

I didn't put in an SR because its "JDM". I didn't pay 5000 bucks to get it installed. You guys make pretty big generalizations. I installed it myself, with help from friends, of course. I paid a good deal of money, but that was because the engine I got. If I would have done a red top, I could have had 200 rwhp (and actually, only ONE KA turbo kit claims to make over 200 rwhp - the others measure in crank hp) for 3500 bucks. 2000 for the engine, 1500 for an exhaust, boost controller, and intercooler.

The SR is the engine for JDM ricers.

The KA is the engine for trendy people trying too hard to be different.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
People trashing the SR??? That's not a trend. It's just a bunch of folks that refuse to buy into the hype you bought into.

Powerband: well, the KA beats the CA and SR in power and torque normal aspirated. Then if you boost all engine at 7psi, well, guess what, the KA will still beat the CA and SR. Why? Displacement... Nothing more, nothing less. Pure physics.

highest stock bodied, non full racing SR car runs 10s... Not 8's. Jun's car is a race car. Period. Duy's former car is a stock bodied, non full racing car. It's a street car. It is stupid to compare a street car against a stockbodied race car... dumb.

As for civics and Supras running 9's with different hp, well, haven't you heard of weight??? Power to weight ratio? Guess not.

Why didn't Duy's car get better than 10's? 3,000lbs as raced with full stereo? Street car trim? stock transmission? stock head? stock cams!!!! Which part of that is hard to imagine. His engine build is very straight forward and simple with piston and rods swapped.

Highend power, easy to get with a KA. Get rid of it's narrow stock cams... Simple as that... The engine, intake manifold, and cams are all setup for midrange torque and power.

And as for: "Already when the torque hits on my SR the wheels break loose." Well, if that happens, you need to tighten down your lug nuts... <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'> Or get better tires... Heck, I can break the tires loose on a geo metro... Does that make the Geo powerful? No, it just means it has crappy tires...

For someone who generalizes quite a bit, you are complaing about others who are generalizing... sheesh..

As for the KA being for the trendy folks... Whatever... Its more like it's for the folks who are original and don't buy into hypes. We don't try too hard to be different. We just do it, because it makes much more sense...

As for TY's 300hp, get it straight... it's 365hp @ 6,000rpm or [email protected] 6,000rpm with 329ft-lb @ 4,300rpm. All that with the following invested:
$2,800 - used stage 2 system
$200 - used ecu to replace the one from the original car
$350 - HKS Twinpower ignition unit
$100 - Magnecore wires
$365 - Nissan Motorsport cams
$600 - A'PEXi GT Spec Exhaust

As for fresh off the showroom floor, what does that have to do with the power level of the motor? Isn't all cars at one point fresh off the showroom floor??? Silly folks....

As for built KAs, there is now a handful that are 400rwhp level...

As for lower powered SR in the US, booo to those who claim there hasn't been much development time... It's like crying the grapes are sour because you couldn't reach them... Silly... By claiming that, you basically slap the SE-R folks in the face...

For years, the argument for the SR folks is how the SR has this and that from this and that in aftermarket support, and now within the past couple of months when the higher powered KA's are showing up, folks are now crying that there isn't much support for the SR... Whatever... Crybabies... Whatever happen to those folks who always says there are tons of support for the SR? There are definetly more support... It's just folks are being silly and trying to find an excuse to defend why their beloved SR can't make the "hype" horsepower...

For years the KA camp had to fight the hype of the SR. The KA was overcasted by the shadow of the SR's achievement and no one really took a look at it... Now, the KA camp is well established, and the SR folks are scrambling... Who would've thought.... too funny...

SR: Silly Ricers...
KA: Knowledgable Assholes

TonKA Truck Power!!!!</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
No offense (well actually yes take offense I don't care) but you sound like an idiot. &nbsp;I don't even know were to start, first the sr20de in Japan (since thats what were comparing to) makes 160 HP n/a doe's that make it better to turbo then the KA24 now? &nbsp;Strap a T25 or T28 turbo and boost it to 7 psi and see how much HP the KA24 makes then, not really fair comparing a T3/4 turbo kit to a T25 or T28 now is it? You kinda lose me with your rambling about tires and shit, but "As for fresh off the showroom floor, what does that have to do with the power level of the motor?" Have you ever bought a used car? Come on, you never know how it was treated or mantained, if he had a used clunker that was abused your telling me that would'nt factor in to wether it breaks down? &nbsp;My used ca18 blew on me and it only had 77,000 miles, and I was running stock! And what the hell doe's this mean "For years the KA camp had to fight the hype of the SR. The KA was overcasted by the shadow of the SR's achievement and no one really took a look at it... Now, the KA camp is well established, and the SR folks are scrambling... Who would've thought.... too funny..." What is this some backwoods city with rival gangs fighting each other? Grow the fuck up, anything is better then stock, neither hold's anything over the other. &nbsp;hell I have a stock ca18det and I'm still probably faster then 95% of this forum, cause most people don't even do anything to there cars. Oh here's a pic for you....

http://www.neonspeed.com/radiationvictim/ff1.jpg

[crazycuban]

Word up. &nbsp;You just saved me a lot of typing.

And pure physics? &nbsp;I just tested my relatively stock SR at 14psi (close to max w/o injectors) running against a relatively modified KA at 7 psi (max without injectors IIRC)...the KA at 7 psi will not beat the SR with minor, common mods. &nbsp;Simple experience beats simple physics. &nbsp;I don't understand how you can trash an engine that with minor mods runs 13's.

[crazycuban]

Where's the SR to match the top KA? &nbsp;I think it needs to be asked where's the KA to match the top SR. &nbsp;I've never seen nor heard of an 800hp, or even 700hp KA (the KSP engineering S14 puts down 800 rwhp, the Jun puts down 700hp). &nbsp;You talk about how if Duy's race car was gutted it "would" be faster than the hyper lemon silvia. &nbsp;Well, the fact is, its not. &nbsp;The fact is that as far as I know, there is no KA that has broken into the single digits. &nbsp;There are plenty of SR's that have. &nbsp;This, of course, doesn't say that the SR is the better engine, but just saying that just because the KA has all this potential, doesn't mean its better than the SR. &nbsp;Potential is theoretical. &nbsp;The SR has been proven time and time again that its a bad ass motor. &nbsp;

There's a 10 second Miata, with a turbocharged BP (the 1.8 liter Miata engine that puts out 140 crank hp). &nbsp;Does that mean the BP is a great engine? &nbsp;The Miata's a street car too. &nbsp;If we're talking about accomplishments, I'd say the KA is at about the same level as the BP <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

Yeah, to clarify, that was a joke. &nbsp;But you can't say the KA is better because of accomplishments or because of potential. &nbsp;I'd say its impossible to say which of the two is better - it depends on your use for it. &nbsp;It's really the same situation as asking whether the 2JZ-GTE or the Chevy 350 is better. &nbsp;The one think that can be asked, is which suits your purposes? &nbsp;Do you like the whine of a huge turbo, or the rumble of a V8? &nbsp;High end hp, with lag, or a whole lot of low end, with a low redline? &nbsp;Take your pick.

[White240sx]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Guest @ Mar. 11 2002,12:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As for built KAs, there is now a handful that are 400rwhp level...

TonKA Truck Power!!!!</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Speaking of which, how's development on that "highest horsepower on pump gas" KA coming, you need something to keep up with the BPUs. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

Has UNDERpsi done anything yet to get solidly into the 450hp and above range? We don't get to hear much from him first hand.


-Truck Power!!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (crazycuban @ Mar. 10 2002,07:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Word up. You just saved me a lot of typing.

And pure physics? I just tested my relatively stock SR at 14psi (close to max w/o injectors) running against a relatively modified KA at 7 psi (max without injectors IIRC)...the KA at 7 psi will not beat the SR with minor, common mods. Simple experience beats simple physics. I don't understand how you can trash an engine that with minor mods runs 13's.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Obviously you're lacking in english comprehension... Which part of boosting at same boost you didn't understand?

Go ahead a boost a SR at 7psi and compare it to a KA with 7psi of boost...

Displacement is still displacement and boost is virtual displacement...

Boosting a SR at 1.0bar makes the engine a virtual 4.0L engine...

Boosting a KA at 7psi (or 0.5 bar) makes the engine a virtual 3.6L... Of course the SR at 1.0bar will make more power... Pure and simple physics... and english...

A KA @ 1.0bar has a virtual displacement of 4.8L...

Imagine the 8.0L Viper V-10 at 1.0bar... 16.0L!!!!!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ca18guy @ Mar. 10 2002,05:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No offense (well actually yes take offense I don't care) but you sound like an idiot. I don't even know were to start, first the sr20de in Japan (since thats what were comparing to) makes 160 HP n/a doe's that make it better to turbo then the KA24 now? Strap a T25 or T28 turbo and boost it to 7 psi and see how much HP the KA24 makes then, not really fair comparing a T3/4 turbo kit to a T25 or T28 now is it? You kinda lose me with your rambling about tires and shit, but "As for fresh off the showroom floor, what does that have to do with the power level of the motor?" Have you ever bought a used car? Come on, you never know how it was treated or mantained, if he had a used clunker that was abused your telling me that would'nt factor in to wether it breaks down? My used ca18 blew on me and it only had 77,000 miles, and I was running stock! And what the hell doe's this mean "For years the KA camp had to fight the hype of the SR. The KA was overcasted by the shadow of the SR's achievement and no one really took a look at it... Now, the KA camp is well established, and the SR folks are scrambling... Who would've thought.... too funny..." What is this some backwoods city with rival gangs fighting each other? Grow the fuck up, anything is better then stock, neither hold's anything over the other. hell I have a stock ca18det and I'm still probably faster then 95% of this forum, cause most people don't even do anything to there cars. Oh here's a pic for you....

http://www.neonspeed.com/radiationvictim/ff1.jpg</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Okay, SR20DE in Japan... 160ps... @ 10:1 comp ratio, 95 octane gas, and convert that 160ps to hp... still not impressive...

And who's arguing T3/T25/T28? The discussion was about boost levels... Go ahead, strap a T28 to a KA, and don't be suprise that it will make more power than a SR with a T28. After all, it's a larger displacing engine. If it made less power, then I'd be worried about the engine...

If you want to argue, atleast understand the difference between a power level advertised in "ps" and not do the newbie thing of comparing it straight to "hp".

About the showroom thingy... well there is such a thing called "inspection", "leak down check", "compression check" etc... Bet you've never heard of those things before... <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

Yes, I've bought used cars before. Lots of fun... Had fun with a '84 Maxima. Even had to rebuild the distibutor and made it more reliable...

About the tires... Well, that was a reply to another fool who said he can break loose his wheels... Geez, break loose a wheel... that means he needs to tighten down the lug nuts or learn english... if he is trying to say that his car can break loose the tires (lost of traction)... Geez, break a wheel loose, good one... So my real suggestion to him was for him to get better tires. Being able to break traction with a set of tires doesn't really mean massive power. The example I gave was of a geo Metro. I could get one to break traction and spin the tires. Does that make the Geo Metro really powerful? No, it just means the tires can't get enough traction... (I'm poking fun at his flawed logic in his argument if you are having problems following along...)

Geez, your used CA18 with 77k... How much of that 77k is real? How about the fact you bought a junk yard engine vs a running car? Again, flawed logic...

As for the KA/SR camp... geez, engrish, do you speak it?

Why are you so proud of an engine that was cast aside by both the SR and KA? CA is old news...

...atleast one person on this thread knows my story... lol...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AceInHole @ Mar. 11 2002,11:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">are you sad that you can't be a deleted member anymore???

anyways, I think it's pretty clear that the SR, being a weaker engine, isn't capable of the power the KA is, and so it's not a good choice for someone seeking more power for their car.

lol. just had to say that. great, now flames will come.... this will never die...</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Yes...

For those SR folks, don't get the wrong idea... The engine is a great engine. Lots have been accomplished, but it isn't that much better... especially considering the cheesy rocker arms... What a joke... And all the support and R&D with the SR can't seem to really trump the efforts of grass root R&D of the KA+T... So what Duy's a doctor or what not... He's not a performance part corporation... The time to use Jun's car for a comparison is if a company the size of Jun uses the same amount of resource in to a KA... than you can use the Jun car... For $10k that went into Duy's former car, that's pretty good. I haven't seen an equivalent level of performance from a grass root level SR...

CA folks, STFU... Your engine's era is way over... belongs in a junkyard or a museum.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (luey02 @ Mar. 11 2002,11:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">the flame is coming.. lol..

nah, you're right. In the end, KA will make more power since of the displacement but SR can easily reach what my goal is. So power isn't one of my issue, as I can speak for a lotta heads in here. But the fact that SR can out-rev the KA and feel more like a real performance car is what gets my bag of chips. Plus, it's got more parts..

flame on ACE!</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
You are absolutely right...

SR swaps are definetly for folks what want that level of hp and is not willing to spend more money.

It's easy to get 250hp...

...but then again, it's also relatively easy to get 250hp with a KA...

...Yeah, it's easier to find performance parts for the SR, but truely how many SR folks aren't cheap, and are willing to take advantage of that? Guess there isn't too many...

...for SOHC KA owners, just do it... time for that SR... unless you like to run carbs and have a N/A KA24E that does 240hp.

[ca18guy]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Guest @ Mar. 12 2002,5:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Okay, SR20DE in Japan... 160ps... @ 10:1 comp ratio, 95 octane gas, and convert that 160ps to hp... still not impressive...

And who's arguing T3/T25/T28? The discussion was about boost levels... Go ahead, strap a T28 to a KA, and don't be suprise that it will make more power than a SR with a T28. After all, it's a larger displacing engine. If it made less power, then I'd be worried about the engine...

If you want to argue, atleast understand the difference between a power level advertised in "ps" and not do the newbie thing of comparing it straight to "hp".

About the showroom thingy... well there is such a thing called "inspection", "leak down check", "compression check" etc... Bet you've never heard of those things before... <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

Yes, I've bought used cars before. Lots of fun... Had fun with a '84 Maxima. Even had to rebuild the distibutor and made it more reliable...

About the tires... Well, that was a reply to another fool who said he can break loose his wheels... Geez, break loose a wheel... that means he needs to tighten down the lug nuts or learn english... if he is trying to say that his car can break loose the tires (lost of traction)... Geez, break a wheel loose, good one... So my real suggestion to him was for him to get better tires. Being able to break traction with a set of tires doesn't really mean massive power. The example I gave was of a geo Metro. I could get one to break traction and spin the tires. Does that make the Geo Metro really powerful? No, it just means the tires can't get enough traction... (I'm poking fun at his flawed logic in his argument if you are having problems following along...)

Geez, your used CA18 with 77k... How much of that 77k is real? How about the fact you bought a junk yard engine vs a running car? Again, flawed logic...

As for the KA/SR camp... geez, engrish, do you speak it?

Why are you so proud of an engine that was cast aside by both the SR and KA? CA is old news...

...atleast one person on this thread knows my story... lol...</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
The site I got 160 HP said HP not PS. Even if it was PS it would drop it what, a whole 2-3 HP? (i'm not gonna bother looking up the conversion) Why argue about T25/T28? Cause that would obviously effect the overall HP at any given boost level. And how much of my CA's 77K of milage is real? Well seeing as it came STOCK over here in england I would assume that they were real mile's, it was'nt a junk yard engine (though after replacing it and revealing alot of things it might be &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/hmmm.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':hmmm:'> &nbsp;) Which brings me back to the fact that in a used car you don't know what your getting. As for me being proud of my engine, what are you talking about? I'm proud of my car for what it is, but you rarely if ever (besides when people ask me about it) see me going on and on over the ca18 like the ka-t and sr folks. It's a good engine but I don't try to push people into it like you guy's. hell I take it from the sound of your post's that I don't like the KA, if I ever bought a 240sx I most likely would keep it. &nbsp;Unfortunatly I'm not even a big fan of 4 cylinder's period, so I don't care which one everyone "feels" is better. I just wanted a cheap quick turbo Nissan while I spend my 2 years over here in England. I never knew that by me buying this car I should be ashamed and get in arguements with people whom I thought shared common interest's (not a bunch of in fighting) As for the "ca gang" or whatever you called the groups, I feel kinda lonely in my gang seeing that I'm the only one in it &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('> &nbsp; Anyway as I always say in all of these post's (something I swear I stole of one of your post's on FA) Anything is better then stock!

PS I just noticed I write in one big paragraph on forums &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>

[crazycuban]

God dammit...people who argue by saying other peeps can't speak english are dumb. &nbsp;Especially when they say you can't speak english, but respond, and therefore, definately understand you. &nbsp;

Anyways, you guys talk about how a KA can support more hp than an SR.

Show me.

[crazycuban]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AceInHole @ Mar. 12 2002,10:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well... there's a few KA's... show me some SR's please.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Ooooh 400hp. &nbsp;Actually, now that I think about it, the KA hasn't even surpassed the Honda B-series engines in terms of hp. &nbsp;

Anyways, show you some SR's? &nbsp;

KSP Engineering drag S14 - 800hp, twin turbo SR20DET(T)
Jun Hyper Lemon S14 - 700hp, 8 secs full stock body


oooooooh but they aren't in America...
I don't really give a shit if they're in America or not, we're talking about which is the better engine - KA or SR. &nbsp;I'm not saying peak hp makes the better engine - like I said earlier, they're both equally good, but at different things. &nbsp;But don't bring hp into the discussion thinking it means the KA is better.

[crazycuban]

I guess my point is that you can say the KA is better at certain things than the SR, but until you have solid evidence, as in seen or read about KA cars with the same e.t. and hp as the top SR's, then I don't really think that you can say that the KA is better. &nbsp;It may suit your purposes better, but the better engine? &nbsp;That's just dumb...in a couple years, when the KA becomes the popular tuning engine it deserves to be, then come back and say that the KA is better than the SR (that, of course, is assuming you're right about its "potential".

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jeff240sx @ Mar. 12 2002,1:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why is the focus of this conversation who makes more power? I for one, don't want to drive everyday with 800hp out of either engine. It would be rediculous. I will hit 300, and if $$$ permits, 350hp. This, in either engine, will drop into the low 12's.
But to glimpse the strengths.
Sr - high revving.
Ka - Torque.
Weaknesses.
Sr - Aluminum Alloy block with Steel Alloy cylinder sleeves. (Wow. Steel Alloy. HAS to be 1/2 as weak as iron.)
Ka - Lower redline, less horsepower.

Now. Before people bitch about my less horsepower claim. I am talking two engines with the same mods. The KA will have less horsepower, but a lot more torque.
Each engine is for the right perspective owner, and people need to realize it.
-Jeff</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Well, you should just say less hp for the KA. What you need to do is to make the distinction that it will have less peak hp.

The KA typically have a much broader powerband than the SR. Not a huge difference, but significantly enough...

Case in point:

two 240SX, both dynoed 210rwhp at the 1st annual 240SX national meeting in Kansas City, Mo. One is a S14. The other is a S13. The S14 is running a F-Max stage 1 on an engine that has 100k miles on it. The S13, well, about 30k miles.

Since both cars have the same peak rwhp, it was thought it would be a good comparison. the S14 has about a 400lb weight disadvantage.

After three runs, the S14 with the KA+T came out on top on all three runs. Wasn't a run away victory, but a win nonetheless. Yeah, both have same peak rwhp, but since rwhp doesn't tell the whole story, and that the heavier car won means that the KA+T made more power through out more of the powerband, and torque is part of all that... HP is a function of torque and rpm...

[crazycuban]

Who me, the S14 definately doesn't have a 400 lb weight disadvantage...hopefully you typed it wrong, but the S13 weighs around 2650, and the S14 2750.

And as far as people being happy with their hp, Ace is definately right...after putting in my SR, and having to deal with all this new power, I was pretty damn scared by it. &nbsp;Now I'm looking at injectors and turbos...and its only been about 3 weeks. &nbsp;Its just too damn easy to say "okay, I'll just leave it there"...

And I still don't get why the SR's aluminum is a disadvantage to the KA's iron block - the strength of the block only matters in high horsepower/boost situations, and the SR has been pushed much higher than the KA...sure, the sleeves have to be switched out on the SR, but the entire bottom end of the KA has to be switched out at lower hp levels than the SR.

Anyways, it pisses me off too when people call the KA a "truck engine"...hell, the B-series Honda engine is used in the CRV, but I've never heard that called a truck engine. &nbsp;It's just all relative...I talk to Honda oriented people about my dyno charts, and they remark on how torquey my engine is...the KA has even more torque than mine...import enthusiasts are just used to not having torque - for the most part, only American cars and import trucks are seen as having torque. &nbsp;

mmmmmmmm...L28...

[crazycuban]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DrDubbleB @ Mar. 16 2002,7:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Settle down there dpro.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
hehe my sentiments exactly...

ANYways...

The KA crank is NOT knife edged...there was a pic on fresh alloy a while ago of the KA crank.

400 hp to switch out the bottom end on an SR is a conservative estimate - I've seen estimates as high as 500 and 550 hp before the bottom end of the SR needs work. &nbsp;That being said, the SR needs headwork before the KA, at about the same time the KA needs bottom end work - but for me at least (and this is, of course, not about one engine being better than the other, but about individual choices), I'd rather mess with the head than the bottom end - you don't have to lift the engine out, and when you work the head you can get power from cams and revs from lightening/strengthening valvetrain components as well...

And whether you need to switch out the components on the KA or not, the fact is that you have to pull the engine and mess with the bottom end, which you don't have to do until higher on the SR.

one thing to mention is the weight difference of the sr being an aluminum block, if there is one, dont really care to check the specs before i write this, but im sure it weighs less (could be wrong), and that would help getting the over-all wieght down for 1/4 miles, the weight of the driver would also matter, how much fuel was in the car, everything related to weight, im not sayin either is better...i just dont get how everyone is all hung up on 1/4 times and hp, hell some of it is just how good the driver is....

just my opinion

[crazycuban]

Yeah, people talk about the SR as being weak because it's aluminum, but really there's a whole lot of aluminum in that block...it's not weak, but because it's not weak, its not that much lighter than the KA. &nbsp;For a street car, that small of a weight difference has no bearing.

okay, another thing to look at is the drivers skill, and the wheel size, the gear ratios, aerodynamics, all of those you must take into consideration when you think of 1/4 mile times, the actual question was why isnt there any 10sec sr powered 240s in the US, and i have to likely anwsers, either the sr owners dont care to run 10 sec 1/4 miles, you just havnt heard about any yet, and there could possibly be none in the US...hell it might not even be the car, maybe you could drive someones sr powered car and get into the 10 sec range, in my opinion the only real way to see which one is better is to have a race, one KA, one SR, with the car being the same, and have one driver, say he runs 5 ,1/4s with the ka, and 5 with the sr, and average the times and see which is faster, or atleast thats how i look at it...hell i could be wrong, i really dont care tho...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (crazycuban @ Mar. 16 2002,2:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Who me, the S14 definately doesn't have a 400 lb weight disadvantage...hopefully you typed it wrong, but the S13 weighs around 2650, and the S14 2750.

And as far as people being happy with their hp, Ace is definately right...after putting in my SR, and having to deal with all this new power, I was pretty damn scared by it. Now I'm looking at injectors and turbos...and its only been about 3 weeks. Its just too damn easy to say "okay, I'll just leave it there"...

And I still don't get why the SR's aluminum is a disadvantage to the KA's iron block - the strength of the block only matters in high horsepower/boost situations, and the SR has been pushed much higher than the KA...sure, the sleeves have to be switched out on the SR, but the entire bottom end of the KA has to be switched out at lower hp levels than the SR.

Anyways, it pisses me off too when people call the KA a "truck engine"...hell, the B-series Honda engine is used in the CRV, but I've never heard that called a truck engine. It's just all relative...I talk to Honda oriented people about my dyno charts, and they remark on how torquey my engine is...the KA has even more torque than mine...import enthusiasts are just used to not having torque - for the most part, only American cars and import trucks are seen as having torque.

mmmmmmmm...L28...</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I didn't type that wrong... Typical weights for KA+T cars are almost 3,000lbs due to the extra weight from the turbo and stuff. Stock weight can't be used because of that.

The S13 hatch wasn't a fully loaded model, and typically they come out to be around 2,600lbs.

It also didn't help that the S13 owner was pulling more stuff out of the car than originally agreed to...

[camppain]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AceInHole @ May 14 2002,05:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">bringing this back because of semi-new developement:

The SR is used in the X-Trail, which is a mini-SUV. Does this mean that the ultimate form of the SR is to be used for girl-ish midget SUV's??? In this case, the SR is a truck engine, and a weak one at that.

So, now both engines are truck engines, and that means the CA must be the best inline 4-cylinder Nissan engine (or the FJ, but how much do we really know about the FJ).

Point being, calling the KA a truck block is worthless. It's like saying that the 350z (Altima, G35, and Maxima) uses a truck block because the VQ is in the Pathfinder.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
ahh yes straight from my signature......... <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':thumbsup:'>

[camppain]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AceInHole @ May 14 2002,10:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">damn... no SR kult members to argue with......

so far...</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
well it is actually the sr20vet in the xtrail not the sr20det.

so what if someone uses the sr16vvl n1 motor?

and why do idiots still choose to classify engines by what they came in?

if an engine is a deisel is that a truck motor? vw and audi shouldnt make cars then.

[camppain]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AceInHole @ May 14 2002,11:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Coldsun @ May 13 2002,12:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (camppain @ May 12 2002,11:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AceInHole @ May 14 2002,05:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">bringing this back because of semi-new developement:

The SR is used in the X-Trail, which is a mini-SUV. Does this mean that the ultimate form of the SR is to be used for girl-ish midget SUV's??? In this case, the SR is a truck engine, and a weak one at that.

So, now both engines are truck engines, and that means the CA must be the best inline 4-cylinder Nissan engine (or the FJ, but how much do we really know about the FJ).

Point being, calling the KA a truck block is worthless. It's like saying that the 350z (Altima, G35, and Maxima) uses a truck block because the VQ is in the Pathfinder.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
ahh yes straight from my signature......... <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':thumbsup:'></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Whoa that is right outta your sig
hahah
j/k

Yo this thread is major, i'm actually learning <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/nervous.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':nervous:'>
-Sun</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
baah... I was there when we were discussing that in chat. camp even mentioned that he was gonna put it in his sig IIRC. it just took the X-Trail example to further it. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
now that i think of it i remeber u making your special appearences every now and then with a few noteworthy words and such <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>

but you gotta admit it is a valid statement about the vq. after all


"its just a truck engine"