Helicopter pilots engage on perhaps innocent people

[HyperTek]

Wikileaks Video Demonstrates Conclusively That Innocent People Get Killed in Wars - wikileaks - Gawker (http://gawker.com/5510094/wikileaks-video-demonstrates-conclusively-that-innocent-people-get-killed-in-wars?skyline=true&s=ihttp://gawker.com/5510094/wikileaks-video-demonstrates-conclusively-that-innocent-people-get-killed-in-wars?skyline=true&s=i)

So what does it show? It shows American helicopter pilots firing on and killing a group of perhaps half a dozen men on the streets of Baghdad, and then firing on a van that arrived to pick up one of the wounded men. The van, it turns out, had two children in it, both of whom were wounded. The video is chilling, not least because the pilots' radio chatter is plainly bloodthirsty—they are eager to fire, and delighted to kill. This is enough for Wikileaks to call the episode an example of "Collateral Murder."

But unless we are prepared to describe every death of a noncombatant in a war zone as a murder, then it shows something short of that. Noor-Eldeen and Chmagh were standing in a group of men. Some of them were plainly holding AK-47s. It's not discernible from the video what immediately preceded the slayings or why the gunships were called in, but according to a contemporaneous New York Times account, the military claimed that U.S. troops in the area called in air support after encountering small arms fire during a raid. The Apache pilots saw at least two men carrying weapons, and misidentified Noor-Eldeen's camera as a gun. They accurately relayed what they were seeing to commanders—a bunch of men standing around, some of whom were carrying weapons—and asked for permission to kill them. They were granted that permission.

It upsets me how the pilots just wanted any reason to blast on these guys. i can understand the guys with the AKs could be a threat for the troops when they arrive to that location, but after wounding a guy which then a van comes to try to save him, they open fire on that van.

The guy peaking around the building was probably thinking "oh shit theres a military helicopter, this cant be good"

[aznpoopy]

next time think hard before calling in your 7 killstreak reward

[Om1kron]

if you're not in the military you probably shouldn't be discussing whats right and wrong when it comes to war.

[Om1kron]

It upsets me how the pilots just wanted any reason to blast on these guys.
Does it also upset you when a terrorist feels the same way about killing innocent people, Americans and their own using guerrilla warfare tactics?
Did it upset you how they were looking for a reason to fly planes into the twin towers?

Shut the fuck up, stupid ass troll. You and everyone else who thinks "this is wrong"

and yeah the people in the van got shut up, 2 kids died. is that our fault the parents bad decisions put the kids in the middle of a warzone while a chopper is raining down death on terrorists?

It's also not their fault people were there taking pictures... nobody told them to get cool journalist photos during a war.

It's WAR.

people fucking die, boo hoo.

[shiftdrift]

damn, that's strong words.

[HalveBlue]

I'd like to know what happened in the minutes, if not hours, days, or weeks, preceding this engagement.

I have a hard time believing that a pair of 64's was just cruising around beautiful Baghdad on a sunny, desert day, having nothing better to do than taking down innocent civilians.

Obviously these helicopters were providing aerial support to ground units which were encountering hostile fire while conducting military operations.

While it's easy to judge the actions of others after the fact, hindsight is 20/20.

As it turns out, out the group of people that were killed several were armed (the Army investigation of this incident mentions recovering 1 or more AK-47's and 1 or more RPG's, if I remember correctly). Also among the casualties were two Reuters' employees and two children.

Don't get me wrong, it's tragic that these people were caught up in this incident. But the unfortunate, cold hard reality of war is that collateral damage is never acceptable, but always unavoidable.

All that having been said, I do not think this video provides enough information or context to properly explain what happened.

Where these people in the wrong spot at the wrong time?

Was the van that pulled up after the first engagement, which contained two children, merely a group of good Samaritans concerned about the welfare of the injured, or another group of insurgents trying to recover weapons and "troops" while at the same time, scrupulously endangering the welfare of their offspring?

Life and death decisions have to be made within split seconds often with limited or inaccurate information. Had the two gunships not engaged this group of people, the end result may have been that several American Soldiers may have been killed or injured.

Monday morning quarterbacking is easy. Analyzing the complex realities of warfare at the moment of decision is not.

Unfortunately, America seems to be contend to send its men and women into war as long as it doesn't hit too close to home.

Make no mistake about it, war is grizzly, deadly, terrible thing, that should be avoided at all costs whenever possible. At the very least, this video shows exactly that.

If anything I would hope that this incident at least contributed to intelligent and honest discussion about the realities of war and the terrible consequences it can have.



"It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it."

-Robert E. Lee

[ziptiedae86]

all the armchair generals who have never been in a combat situation can criticize all they want after the fact.

this didn't happen at the beginning of the iraq conflict, so by 2007 any sensible civilian should know to stay indoors and not act suspicious when gunships circle overhead.

[Shitty_S14]

if you're not in the military you probably shouldn't be discussing whats right and wrong when it comes to war.

+1

msglength

[Csomme]

Your not over there, you don't have a right to say shit. Just a bunch of Liberal assholes trying to get everyone excited about bullshit. Fuck that. Fuck all the haters who sit on their ass all day just to write articles about why they think war is wrong and all that bullshit.

[HyperTek]

Please dude , I respect the military and all people in it, most of my family served at one point or another.

Dude was a freaking photographer, how freaking dangerous can he be? Of course they probably did not know that, but thats the thing, blast anyone who looks suspicious. Did you ladies even watch the video or just like to be cocky and jump on anyone who questions shit? One of the guys was already on the ground and the gunner or whoever was like hoping he would pick up a weapon so he could light him up.

blood hungry people with guns looking for an excuse to use em.. bad enough US has a bully image.

Not like they had to blast everyone on sight in order to keep their location secret, they where in a loud ass helicopter and firing..

[Shitty_S14]

its ok we put our lives on the line so you can write and speek freely... soooo


plz continue....

[lewisfk]

Hey man we tried to win the hearts and minds of the people, but that didn't work! The US made it loud a clear to the Iraq people if your caught with guns and RPG's u will be targeted, Plain and simple! Its sad that kids got hurt, but shit happens in war!

[J3123MY]

Damn, those pilots fucked up those people quick. Those people chilling outside had it coming though. I know I would stay indoors if some military helicopters were circling above my city.

I don't think that the helicopter pilots should be in any kind of trouble, cause they were just taking precautions. What if the people they killed would have killed a fellow American soldier a few days later if he didn't kill him? Better safe then sorry.

[ziptiedae86]

Photographers are routinely used as spotters or as cameramen for insurgent propaganda, so yes, a man with a camera CAN be dangerous and should be approached with caution. Besides, black cameras with long telescopic lenses and straps could be perceived as a weapon from a distance.

Perception is reality.

[dahveed]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_abaJ0xbRju4/R95gJdurf2I/AAAAAAAAAJg/t4g3KW7yuOQ/s320/handheld-stinger-missile.jpg
Yeahhhh.
Oh, and you can see the rifles being held in some of their hands before they start shooting.

[luftrofl]

i can understand the guys with the AKs could be a threat for the troops when they arrive to that location, but after wounding a guy which then a van comes to try to save him, they open fire on that van.

Could? They were a threat.

The idea of shooting is to kill. Of course the pilots are gonna shoot up the van.

I don't agree that the pilots wanted "any reason" to open fire, however, I would say that the authorization to fire came a bit quickly. (go watch some other videos on liveleak, sometimes those helis track enemy combatants for a LONG time)

[HyperTek]

oh well this vid was in 07 and those people have been dead for years.. guess i shouldn't have brought it up, no one cares as long as they are not related to the deceased.. They where in the wrong place at the wrong time right?

Of course war isnt pretty.

[driftingmustang]

its ok we put our lives on the line so you can write and speek freely... soooo


plz continue....yes we do, I agree

[kyoru]

I don't know people are complaining about this. they spotted guys with aks, they talk with the guys with the cameras and hang out for a bit. unfortunately their guilty by association, it's not exactly easy to see what the other people are holding either. add in a billion other variables such being hot as hell, being sweaty, tired and all of that crap, it can make it very hard to make an accurate decision.

[tsx1racer04]

The pilots did the right thing. The new's reporters were very naive by accompanying the insurgents. Obviously, if you're going to hanging around insurgents and you hear a helicopter, don't you think you've got enough footage? And the children involved in the killing, c'mon, what kind of caring or loving parent bring their children to a war zone to fight alongside them!

Anyways, I applaud these pilots.

[Oilcover]

okay, listen up.


http://i41.tinypic.com/343tb0j.jpg

--------------

Beginning at 3:36 you can clearly see two men holding weapons. This guy at 3:43 has an AK-47. You can see it more clearly as he swings it but here's a screenshot that shows it.

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/US-murder_iraqi_AK47.JPG

This screenshot is at 3:35. This guy is definitely carrying a weapon. In motion it looks like it might be a rifle, but from the profile angle snapped below it looks like an RPG.

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/US-murder_iraqi_RPG.JPG

A few seconds later at 3:50 he puts the weapon down. The weapon is long enough that it's comes up well beyond his waist and it certainly has the width of an RPG. Or at least from this angle it looks that way.

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/US-murder_iraqi_RPG2.JPG

The person than goes behind a building, out of view. A few seconds later someone is down on the ground behind the same building. At 4:06 he starts to pick up whatever he has laid down on the ground.

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/US-murder_iraqi_RPG3.JPG

The one above is a bit fuzzy, but the next vidcap from 4:07 is a little clearer although the person in it has ducked behind the building. I'll remind you that a convoy was approaching the group of individuals and this would appear to the helicopter pilots like he was scoping out the oncoming US soldiers.

Remember, about 15 seconds ago the pilot saw a guy with what looks like an RPG. He ducks behind this building. Then a few seconds later he sees someone down on the ground with something that looks like it could be an RPG.

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/US-murder_iraqi_RPG4.JPG

Which is exactly the conclusion the pilot makes.

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/US-murder_iraqi_RPG5.JPG

Could that be the Reuters photojournalist with a long lense? Maybe. But from what the pilot is seeing the man seems like a threat. In war you eliminate threats.

The pilot then notifies others that he sees an individual about to fire an RPG and asks fire control for authority to eliminate the threat. Which he does.

[raz0rbladez909]

I thought exactly what oilcover said, it's easy to make judgment when the

most combat you've ever seen has been in COD or a movie, you don't know

how you'd react if you were in the same position. This is whats wrong with

America today, so many people don't realize you can't have your cake and

eat it too when it comes to war, there will be innocent lives lost. You ever

seen any of the vids of our guys in an APC getting blasted by an IED, then

another APC coming to help those guys that got hit first, only to be blasted

by a second improvised device? Sure we see alot more of our "BAD TROOPS"

but thats only because our media will do anything to stir controversy. Why

do you think so many of our guys are hesitant to make calls when it comes

to taking out an objective, because they are worried about the liberal media

making them out to be bad guys. Like the SEALs that are on trial for

supposedly "Punching" a known terrorist, why does this guy deserve any

rights if he is a known terrorist? Some of you liberal fucks should take a look

at a book called "Lone Survivor" by Marcus Luttrell, its a very good read.

Some of you need to open your eyes instead of being sheep for the liberal

media.

[JohnnyDrfiter22]

So I dont know if any of you have read the article or just got off what other people post....BUT according to officials ground troops were under heavy small arms fire from nearby combatants. Those helicoptors came in to support US coalition. Under the geneva code or military code of law, those helicoptor pilots did exactly what they were supposed to. They were called in, saw hostiles with weapons and opened fire. Those helicoptors are sitting ducks hoovering around the city buildings. RPG's and various other weapons are easy to shoot them down. Than what your family member, your neighbors family member just now got KIA. Some of you guys go over there and you tell me what kind of reactions you would have!!

[sidewaysil80]

It upsets me how the pilots just wanted any reason to blast on these guys...but after wounding a guy which then a van comes to try to save him, they open fire on that van.

it's bad enough we're over in these shit holes away from our families so YOU can sip lattes and do whatever else you do (which is not defending your country apparently) but then i have to read some pussy condemning our military for actions that they took that you could only daydream of having to take. if you don't like the way shit gets handled over there why dont you enlist?

ps i dont get involved in threads like this, but the fact your straight up condemning the shooting the fleeing terrorists is sickening.

[maplejesse]

i know i pretty much have no opinion on this, but


if you're in baghdad and holding a gun.

you're gonna get shot.
lol.

[0wn3r]

next time think hard before calling in your 7 killstreak reward

i lol'd. +1 for best post in this thread.

[JohnnyDrfiter22]

it's bad enough we're over in these shit holes away from our families so YOU can sip lattes and do whatever else you do (which is not defending your country apparently) but then i have to read some pussy condemning our military for actions that they took that you could only daydream of having to take. if you don't like the way shit gets handled over there why dont you enlist?

ps i dont get involved in threads like this, but the fact your straight up condemning the shooting the fleeing terrorists is sickening.


Thanks Sidewaysil80! I wanted to go off on these ignorant fools too.

I do feel sorry for the families of the journalists, but as none of you know those journalists/photographers all volunteer to go there. they were in a hot spot for activity.

[Oilcover]

I have the DOD report in .pdf by the way - after a ground assessment:

We remained above the engagement site while Bushmaster sent ground forces to the site. Bushmaster arrived and reported 11 x AIF KIA and found RPGs and RPG rounds at the site. We also witnessed a loaded RPG lying 2-3 blocks south of the engagement site. Bushmaster reported that the first child was wounded and pulled from the van. We were unable to determine that there were children in the vehicle and never saw any children prior to or during the engagement. After viewing the gun tape, were able to determine that both wounded children came from the van. Bushmaster immediately MEDEVAC'd both girls to FOB Loyalty for medical care

[KA24DESOneThree]

if you're not in the military you probably shouldn't be discussing whats right and wrong when it comes to war.

Wrong.

In the military, you live war. You are employed because of war. You commit war. That is what you do. Call it "peacekeeping" if you must keep your conscience intact, but it is war by another name. You train to fight.

We civilians aren't employed because of war (provided the civilians don't work in the so-called "defense" industry). We civilians don't commit war. We can see things from the outside, things you don't see because we don't see in the black and white of combat and "enemies" and "friendlies."

The US invaded this country, and our armed forces killed a great many of its civilians. Just because the other side does it too, or it's collateral damage and we killed some bad guys in the process doesn't make it right. We go in to usurp a leader and get "justice and freedom" for the populace and, in the mean time, get thousands of innocents killed. Where's the justice and freedom now? Lying face down in a grave; the victim of mistaken identity.

None of you goddamn soldiers right now are fighting for my freedom of speech. Saddam wasn't going to squash it, the Taliban wasn't going to squash it, so keep the bullshit down.

What the flying fuck are you fighting for? What the fuck are you doing to keep America free? Nothing. War is the health of the state.

What the fuck are you doing in some other country fighting their goddamn wars?

Call me a liberal, call me a motherfucker, call me a coward, hate me if it makes you feel better. Just don't say that you're fighting for me.

[lewisfk]

Wrong.

In the military, you live war. You are employed because of war. You commit war. That is what you do. Call it "peacekeeping" if you must keep your conscience intact, but it is war by another name. You train to fight.

We civilians aren't employed because of war (provided the civilians don't work in the so-called "defense" industry). We civilians don't commit war. We can see things from the outside, things you don't see because we don't see in the black and white of combat and "enemies" and "friendlies."

The US invaded this country, and our armed forces killed a great many of its civilians. Just because the other side does it too, or it's collateral damage and we killed some bad guys in the process doesn't make it right. We go in to usurp a leader and get "justice and freedom" for the populace and, in the mean time, get thousands of innocents killed. Where's the justice and freedom now? Lying face down in a grave; the victim of mistaken identity.

None of you goddamn soldiers right now are fighting for my freedom of speech. Saddam wasn't going to squash it, the Taliban wasn't going to squash it, so keep the bullshit down.

What the flying fuck are you fighting for? What the fuck are you doing to keep America free? Nothing. War is the health of the state.

What the fuck are you doing in some other country fighting their goddamn wars?

Call me a liberal, call me a motherfucker, call me a coward, hate me if it makes you feel better. Just don't say that you're fighting for me.

AGREE WITH U SOMEWHAT!!:wan:

The reason we invaded Iraq is because Pres. Bush new for a fact the odds of CATCHING bin laden was slim to none! The American people demanded blood for 911, so why not destroy Iraq! Bush thought we could get reed of Sadam and his kids and turn Iraq into or bitches! We could use Iraq as a launching point for future conflicts in the middle east,and get all the oil we needed! We also could influence the price of oil to other foreign countries, driving up the price and lowering when we felt like it! If u think I'M FULL OF IT, LOOK AT HALIBURTONS STOCKS AND PROFITS OVER THE PAST 12 YEARS AND LOOK AT ITS OWNER! THE IRAQ WAR IS OVER GREED! Americans stop and think about Bushes history, before he was governor of Texas! The man is an idiot, he ran every oil business he had into the ground and his daddy bailed him out with the help of HIS Saudi friends! As governor of Texas he made an express lane for the death penalty! As governor he put SEVERAL PEOPLE TO DEATH WHO WERE FOUND INNOCENT,ONCE BETTER FORENSIC EVIDENCE WAS MADE AVALIABLE! THE SAD THING IS HE KNEW IT!( RICK PERRY JUST DID THE SAME THING!!) This man has no compassion for the populous! He was a modern day ROBIN HOOD IN REVERSE!



The Afghan war is a must, because Clinton and Bush sat on their asses when they had a chance to kill Bin Laden! Laden is now in Pakistani and has a great chance of getting a nuke as we speak! Pakistan is in turmoil and can implode at any time! The years, the money, the time, and the lives wasted in Iraq will not be forgotten! Debates and arguments without violence is what this country is about! We must ask for fair and balanced truth!

[MandTPhotography]

qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq.

[sidewaysil80]

blah blah blah i hate the military blah blah blah i'm a prick blah blah blah i hate the government and i'm an ignorant fuck who thinks the Iraqi were better off with out us however have never spoke with a "real" Iraqi and damn sure not been invited to their houses on patrol to break bread so they can thank me for being their and liberating their people

we (military) dont get to pick and choose wich wars we fight in. so just because the war in iraq didn't directly threaten your freedom, doesn't mean the next one won't. and just like this one, i'll stand willing and ready to commit violence on your behalf because people like you will NEVER raise a hand to defend your self or your country. it's real easy to speak so much of something you no so little about... so people like you can hate the military all you want, you can bad mouth us, make smug comments, insults. but no matter what at some point in time, during some war, people like you will thank us. until then fine American (i use the term loosely in your case) tax payer i say THANK YOU for providing me with my $3600 ($4500 now since i'm deployed) a month paychecks and free ride through college when i'm out :fawk:

[Matej]

if you're not in the military you probably shouldn't be discussing whats right and wrong when it comes to war.
Thought they are fighting for my freedom to discuss whatever I want.

[sidewaysil80]

Thought they are fighting for my freedom to discuss whatever I want.

i think he was referring to the judgment calls that get made during the fog of war. kinda like a "you could never understand until your in that situation yourself" type deal. not all decisions are right, some are wrong, but sometimes you just don't have the luxury to quarterback and really asess(sp) and over analyze your decisions. because a lot of times, it's not only your life on the line, but a lot of people around you. ON ANOTHER NOTE,your right, discuss whatever the hell you want dude. it's fucked up to try and pick and choose which freedoms are acceptable and which are condemned. i'm all about freedom of speech, i'm just not about people taking out their frustrations on the military who have absolutley no say whatsoever in foreign policy.

[aznpoopy]

to expand on that, context is important for figuring out whether 'fog of war' calls were right or wrong.

this video has absolutely no context. it only has 20/20 hindsight and a good bit of propagandist slanting.

[Ben G]

I am pretty sure that if they showed our soldiers getting blown up no one would care about this.

[theicecreamdan]

because people like you will NEVER raise a hand to defend your self or your country.

you can leave all of the bullshit at the door. There are wayyyyyyyyyyyy more ways to defend and serve your country without picking up a rifle. Just because some of us don't get a good feeling when we see people get killed doesn't mean we'll never make our country a better place.

I'm sick of how quickly people will resort to calling other people "liberal cowards" when somebody asks questions. Do you actually give a SHIT about other Americans?

[sidewaysil80]

Do you actually give a SHIT about other Americans?

what do you think? sometimes not about other Americans when shit like this comes up but always about America itself. and i stand by my comment alot of people based on upbringing and experience will never raise a hand to defend (not serve, defend) their country.

dude i'm the last person to confuse with the stereotypical brainwashed g.i. type. couldn't be farther from the truth as a matter of fact. but i'm sick of "Americans" only pointing out the bad in the military never the good. not too mention subject at hand no wrong was commited however just because some one put "killz zomg reporterz" in the title, people belief that shit and eat it up. Why? you say you dont get a good feeling seeing people hurt, but do you get a good feeling slandering YOUR own countries military on accusations and stereotypes? "liberal coward" is what every good ol' calls anyone who disaggrees with them, fuck that ignorant shit. i'm liberal as hell on some issues but do i think it is cowardice to criticize and slander a profession in which you know nothing off. fuck yeah. take away dude: big difference between questioning and criticizing. imo its American to question your country, but its un American to criticize it.

[Drift N Dragg]

Wrong..

I believe you are Wrong.

In the military, you live war. You are employed because of war. You commit war. That is what you do. Call it "peacekeeping" if you must keep your conscience intact, but it is war by another name. You train to fight..

There is more to the United States Military then just War. But being that you, most likey, never Enlisted you would not know that. The Military has Many Programs that you can't even fathom.. But Once again, you MUST be speaking from experience.

A United States Military Member is Trained to do ALOT more then just Fight. But Once again may I point out, you probly already knew that from Experience.... Oh Wait, no you Don't.

We civilians aren't employed because of war (provided the civilians don't work in the so-called "defense" industry). We civilians don't commit war. We can see things from the outside, things you don't see because we don't see in the black and white of combat and "enemies" and "friendlies.".

Everyone in some way shape or Form is Apart of the, how did you put it, " So-Called Defense " industry..

Ever heard of the Constitution?

Well let me remind you, Just in case.. It's the tattered pages on which this Great Country was Founded. Written with the Blood and Sweat of Many great American's...

Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, and Expression .. Ratified: 12/15/1791 ( The One you are using Now... )

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress (http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#REDRESS) of grievances.

Here is a Important one..

Amendment 2 - Right to Bear Arms

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed (http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#INFRINGE)..

So if you look into this.. EVERYONE is in the Defense Industry.. To Protect Your State and Country. We are all ' Minute men ' in a lack of better termanology ..

You said " We Civilians Don't Commit War ".. Boston Tea Party Lead to What? .... Hmmmmm War? Who Fought that War? Hmmmmmmmmm Civilians?? Wow .. Never thought of that.. Weird..

The US invaded this country, and our armed forces killed a great many of its civilians. Just because the other side does it too, or it's collateral damage and we killed some bad guys in the process doesn't make it right. We go in to usurp a leader and get "justice and freedom" for the populace and, in the mean time, get thousands of innocents killed. Where's the justice and freedom now? Lying face down in a grave; the victim of mistaken identity..

Thousands of Innocents get killed? Just a Question, Which war are you talking about?? You Realize You are in America... If you are feeling like many Innocents have died then maybe you are referring to WWI and WWII inwhich Millions of Innocents died.. But Not at the Hands of American's, But Nazi's... Hmmmm But that is a completely different Thread...

None of you goddamn soldiers right now are fighting for my freedom of speech. Saddam wasn't going to squash it, the Taliban wasn't going to squash it, so keep the bullshit down. .

Wrong.. If the Solider's Never fought, countries would invade... Hmm let's see who wanted to invade us.. Japan, Russia, Germany, Italy ( Yes, I said Italy.. Remember Benito Mussolini.. Yup Hell bent on taking over the World too ), and YES believe it or Not, you think Saddam would have Stopped at Kuwait? If you do then I think you need to get a CAT-Scan...

What the flying fuck are you fighting for? What the fuck are you doing to keep America free? Nothing. War is the health of the state.

What the fuck are you doing in some other country fighting their goddamn wars?.

We Fight for the Reason you are here today... Breathe and Bitching in a Completely Free Country.. A Country that is Allowing you to bash our military and have no further recourse but the rebuttle of a Prior Enlist Service member.

You Seem to forget the Pass.. No WAR is different, just a Change in Weapons, Tatics, and Countries.. but there goal is the same..

The Military From the Present to the Past, is the only reason your parents got Drunk and made the mistake of bringing your Selfish, Disrespectful, Ungrateful, and Sorry Ass in this World..

Call me a liberal, call me a motherfucker, call me a coward, hate me if it makes you feel better. Just don't say that you're fighting for me.

I will Just say this:

I am Calling you a American.

Because in any OTHER country, you would have been inprisioned or killed for Treason..

Now having said that...
To all Service Member's Current or Prior.... I Salute You!

[Skyn]

cant believe someone would bash the people who fight for us who chose not to fight for others freedoms

really fucking disheartens me to see such disrespect

i have family in the army and air force national guard and marines

all high ranking even my girls family her brother left today from becket mass

my uncle is leaving from tenn 101st air army ranger hes been gone for 8 fucking years i see him for a week why becasue hes fighting for you to sit and bitch and for his family

Drift N Dragg has a point nazi's killed millions of innocents go watch miracle at st annas and watch the nazi's shoot unarmed people on there knees praying on church soil

if i could i would bitch slap you for hating on people putting there lives on the line so you can be a keyboard warrior fairy bitch princess

how would you like it to be over there and someone with an ak comes and put the fucking thing to your head and kills you with no remorse sworn to protect all enimies forgein and domestic i know where my family is going and anything can happen there

from what i was told my uncle shoudla been dead how would you feel if it was your father or son or brother or uncle fucking ant american ass show some god damn respect for something u didnt have the balls to do

[MF-T Vixxen]

You know "It's funny how some PEOPLE think they know WTF there talking about when really they know nothing at all!!!!"

[yarou]

Shut the fuck up, stupid ass troll. You and everyone else who thinks "this is wrong"



This is a pretty heated topic internet wide, and regardless of whether it was right or wrong, actual weapons or not, it's a topic worthy of discussion and opinion. It even includes a video for your viewing pleasure. Some people feel strongly about the war our country is part of, most arent, you should be used to this shit.

get your head out of that gaping asshole

[karl wasabi]

next time think hard before calling in your 7 killstreak reward

+2 This made me LOL real good too.

I saw the video and at first I thought the helicopters were in the wrong. But after thinking about it, I believe they did do the right thing.

This is from like 07 anyways.

[BOROSUN]

reminds me of the killing civilians/insurgents like with the sniper bait method they used.

wgNInWQI-qU

[Otto347]

Note to self: If im ever in Iraq dont hang out with dudes with AK-47s and RGPs. Thats pretty much common sense.

[ronmcdon]

HYPERTEK - you need to work on your composition, lol.
The thread title was confusing.

Back to topic, imo there's insufficient info to make any meaningful accessment here.
I do get the impression the person making the video has some agenda.

That being said,
If anyone had to make a gamble in a situation where it was between staking the life of comrades & themselves,
or than of potential terrorists, I'm sure most would do the same.
It's definetly not a situation I want to find myself in.

I do think it's naive at best to pass negative judgement outright.

[kingkilburn]

Having an AK proves nothing when you consider just how many of them are out there. If I was Joe Iraqi I think I would have one to protect myself from the militias.

I don't know what intell the pilots had available but based on the video there is no evidence that these were enemy combatants. The pilots do come across as blood thirsty.


The real problem I see is the Army's obvious attempts to keep this under wraps. That more than anything else tells me that obviously something contained within is considered bad press by some one high enough up to deny the request for the video, a video that is our right to see under the freedom of information act.

[lewisfk]

[QUOTE=kingkilburn;3385007]Having an AK proves nothing when you consider just how many of them are out there. If I was Joe Iraqi I think I would have one to protect myself from the militias.


U have a point, but when your under specific instructions to keep all firearms inside the house or hut u should! You cant keep the peace with idiots running around with an AK-47! Were at war and there are rules to follow, if u dont follow them trigger happy mother fuckers like myself will shoot u! THE BEST MEDICINE ON THE BATTLEFIELD ARE ROUNDS DOWN FIELD! :rl:

[kingkilburn]

That is bull shit. We get to run around telling ourselves we are the saviors of democracy while stripping others of rights we hold sacred.

Also some of you have your heads deep in your own asses. Whether you would like to admit it or not you have been conditioned to think a certain way, that was the ENTIRE point of basic training.

If you put a rank on your chest every morning your job is WAR. Either you are fighting or supporting the fight. There is nothing else.

The so called defense jibe was probably pointing out that our defense has been doing a lot of offense since the name change. The defense industry is there to make money. It is very difficult to put some kind of patriotic spin trillions of dollars spent to remove souls from bodies. I'm not saying it's all bad but you have to be matter of fact about it.


My last point is a huge one. Just because I don't like the war DOES NOT mean I condemn the people who volunteered to join up.

[raz0rbladez909]

That is bull shit. We get to run around telling ourselves we are the saviors of democracy while stripping others of rights we hold sacred.

Explain exactly what rights you are talking about?

Also some of you have your heads deep in your own asses. Whether you would like to admit it or not you have been conditioned to think a certain way, that was the ENTIRE point of basic training. .

Conditioned to think a certain way, hmm that's funny, what I remember from bootcamp seems to be a shitload of folding clothes, making my bed, learning Navy history, and the occasional weak ass Navy PT. Only once did I shoot a live weapon in boot camp, a 9mm POS Beretta. I'm sure you've been to boot camp, because you know the ENTIRE point of basic training.



If you put a rank on your chest every morning your job is WAR. Either you are fighting or supporting the fight. There is nothing else..

Hey you pay taxes right? Congratulations you're supporting the fight........and my paycheck thanks ;)
oh and the main people who put there rank/paygrade on there chest is Army, everyone else normally either wears it on their shoulders, collars, upper arm, or their cover, but you know right because you've been in the military. Right, right? Yes of course you must be right

The defense industry is there to make money.

As is every other industry out there, who do you think makes our weapons, aircraft, boats, uniforms, etc, etc. they certainly aren't going to make them for free. Now unless you meant the Department of Defense, then you still don't know what you are talking about, because last I checked we were going through budget cuts and manning cuts constantly to stay with in limits, tell me how the Defense Department is making money off of war? Do you mean our politicians?

My last point is a huge one. Just because I don't like the war DOES NOT mean I condemn the people who volunteered to join up.

I'm sure I myself don't enjoy war, nor do many of the people that have enlisted, do you think its fun sitting in the desert or on a boat for 6-12-18 months at a time? Some people joined by choice, some people joined out of necessity. Either way you should walk in someone elses shoes before judging them, as well as you should feel proud and lucky, that you don't have to deal with some of the bullshit we do on a daily basis. If only it was like Israel here, where it is mandatory for you to serve a minimal term after high school; maybe then would some of you appreciate the military for what we do for you. I like the new age hippies we've got in America, because you can be the in debt, useless, college students that you want to be, and still complain about the horrible economy and the military, all while sipping some starbucks and being a fat turd. Because you have that freedom, to be useless, and complain but hey at least you can bitch about what somebody else does for a living. kudos to you useless hippies, because without you, I would not be so entertained.

OHHHH and by the way that video was awesome, show me more, guilty by association fucks. Oh they were innocent they were just taking pixxoorrzzzz, you ever wonder why most people don't tend to hang out with drug dealers, or criminals because there's something called GUILTY BY ASSOCIATION. I can't believe some of you guys think that oh they were just taking a stroll with their AK's, and might need protection and who the fuck walks around with an rpg not expecting to get blasted, i'm sure they've seen a bootleg blackhawk down, yeah that might tell you not to bring out one of the most easily noticable weapons into the street while helos are circling above. especially an apache. stupidity amazes me, sometimes i do stupid shit, but thats like asking for it.

[theicecreamdan]

People take a little bit of criticism wayyyy too harshly in this thread.

I think that our guys did the best they could do in that situation. It shouldn't have, but it did.

What "good stuff" is the media deliberately leaving out? It was big news when Saddam was captured. What else is there to show? Its war, nothing good is going to come from it.

[sidewaysil80]

What "good stuff" is the media deliberately leaving out?

the shcools, hospitals, libraries we build. for the first time in their lifetime they can express themselves without fear of tortue or prison. kids playing in the street because they don't have to fear the i.e.d.'s set by insurgents. i'm not sure if you understand how it works but pretty much patrols get launched and we check the quality of life and help the people. donate food, toys, school supplies, medical stuff. at the same time we're looking for insurgents, the people love having us there because if their is military coming through neighborhoods daily that means little to know insurgent activity...which again unfolds into kids having a normal childhood and people not afraid to leave their house. they dont have to live in fear of a group of terrorists coming into their home in the middle of the night taking their son to force to be an i.e.d layer or bomber. the media doesnt portray this, they portray the 2% of the people or protests that were loyal to saddam and don't want us there or the FEW times a fuck up on our part occurs. BUT you guys already new this right? ps, i dont think we should have invaded iraq, yeah their lives are better but their are other places we should have been (afghan, rwanda,darfur, etc.) their is no doubt in my mind iraq was invaded for the wrong reasons BUT we did help the people out and as a result of the ill intentioned invasion, the iraqis have a wayyyyyyyyy better life now. so in the end, fuck it, at least one country is better off now.

ps.
just because boot camps are designed to "condition" recruits it doesn't work all the time. only easily impressioned, weak minded people fall into that g.i. joe killing is awesome bullshit. we in the marine corps call them motards (motovation+retards). please don't group me into that category. i sport an anti-flag tattoo, believe 9/11 was an inside job, and am pretty fucking liberal on ALOT of issues. i don't stereotype the people in this thread and i would appreciate the same in return.

[JDMpurest]

"This place may be bombed and we will be killed. We love death. The U.S. Loves life. That is the big difference between us." osama bin Laden.


"It is far better for anyone to kill a single American soldier than to squander his efforts on other activities."
osama bin laden




"America is not at war, America is at the mall. The US military is at war"

This video was awesome, I saw some badass apache pilots put mufukin steal on target, thats what we're trained to do. Collateral damage always sucks but its just guilty by association. Kids shouldnt be hanging out in hostile areas in warzones. Anyone who says this war is not about securing Americas freedom has an IQ of 3.Terrorists are not over here, because we are over there.The only thing the taliban care about is killing Americans and Jews.


Every American should be required watch this video every single morning at breakfast.
This video makes me so insanely furious with rage, i especially hate that this guy had the nerve to say "Rest in peace" in the end. That dude needs to rest in peaces in hell.

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These are all very true words!

"....and when you men get home and face an anti-war protestor, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." -4Star Us Army General, Tommy Franks

"It is the Soldier

It is the soldier, not the reporter,
who has given us freedom of the press.

It is the soldier, not the poet,
who has given us freedom of speech.

It is the soldier, not the campus organizer,
who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.

It is the soldier, not the lawyer,
who has given us the right to a fair trial.

It is the soldier,
who salutes the flag,
who serves under the flag,
and whose coffin is draped by the flag,
who allows the protester to burn the flag."

By Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, USMC


"Only 2 defining forces have ever offered to die for you.....Jesus Christ and
the American Soldier.

One died for your soul, the other for your freedom."

Lt. Col. Grant L. Rosensteel, Jr.

[kingkilburn]

Like I said, firmly up asses.


I've spent 18 years living on military installations. I know more about the military than most people serving right now. If you want to pic apart every little thing I said I can do the same back to every one of you self righteous idiots.


By all means remain on your gung-ho high horse because you really are protecting my rights and freedoms a thousand miles into the ocean or half way across the globe kicking in some one else door.



As soon as the fight comes here I'll be the first in line to defend my country.



EDIT: There is no logical defense to made against fervent nationalism(you know that thing we fought against in WW1-2). Depending on how people react I may just drop out of this thread.

[ranger240]

oh man this thread is going downhill... we have guys like ka24desonethree blabbing about all this macro stuff where as smart guys like maplejesse break it down into an issue of common sense.

this thread isnt about ideological basis of war/current wars/whatever

its about common sense

i know i pretty much have no opinion on this, but


if you're in baghdad and holding a gun.

you're gonna get shot.
lol.


i.e. youre hanging around guys flashing guns infront of military guys... youre liable to get shot

those war photographers got shot and risked the lives of those kids bc they're a bunch of adrenaline junkies chasing excitement.

read
War Is A Force That Gives Us Meaning by Chris Hedges... its about war photojournalists

they take unnecessary risks to maximize their own utility.

if i was in the ghetto hanging out with a bunch of guys flashing guns infront of cops and got shot, itd be my fault for being a moron... morons die. Darwin wouldnt have it any other way




Wrong.

In the military, you live war. You are employed because of war. You commit war. That is what you do. Call it "peacekeeping" if you must keep your conscience intact, but it is war by another name. You train to fight.

We civilians aren't employed because of war (provided the civilians don't work in the so-called "defense" industry). We civilians don't commit war. We can see things from the outside, things you don't see because we don't see in the black and white of combat and "enemies" and "friendlies."

The US invaded this country, and our armed forces killed a great many of its civilians. Just because the other side does it too, or it's collateral damage and we killed some bad guys in the process doesn't make it right. We go in to usurp a leader and get "justice and freedom" for the populace and, in the mean time, get thousands of innocents killed. Where's the justice and freedom now? Lying face down in a grave; the victim of mistaken identity.

None of you goddamn soldiers right now are fighting for my freedom of speech. Saddam wasn't going to squash it, the Taliban wasn't going to squash it, so keep the bullshit down.

What the flying fuck are you fighting for? What the fuck are you doing to keep America free? Nothing. War is the health of the state.

What the fuck are you doing in some other country fighting their goddamn wars?

Call me a liberal, call me a motherfucker, call me a coward, hate me if it makes you feel better. Just don't say that you're fighting for me.

[Drift N Dragg]

Like I said, firmly up asses.


I've spent 18 years living on military installations. I know more about the military than most people serving right now. If you want to pic apart every little thing I said I can do the same back to every one of you self righteous idiots.


By all means remain on your gung-ho high horse because you really are protecting my rights and freedoms a thousand miles into the ocean or half way across the globe kicking in some one else door.



As soon as the fight comes here I'll be the first in line to defend my country.



EDIT: There is no logical defense to made against fervent nationalism(you know that thing we fought against in WW1-2). Depending on how people react I may just drop out of this thread.

I will just say this...

Being a Military BRAT Does NOT mean that you know the Military..

Almost Every military BRAT i know complains.. ' our life sucks this.. My dad's an ass because he is treating me like a solider.. blah Fucking Blah '

Try Joining the Military First... There is a much Different Side that you do not see..

Maybe you are just one of those kids that needs soo much attention that seeing your parent/parents go to Serve there Country and Not stay home to cuddle you and make you Captain Crunch w/ Eggs and Toast, Just Chaps your ass...

How do you think your parent/parents feel if they read what you wrote?

Hmm maybe along the lines of ' Wow, my child thinks I am a failure for trying the protect them the BEST way I can! '..

How about you put some SERIOUS thought into this before your next posting.. Because this world does not Revolve around YOU..

Whether or not you all who are bashing the US, want to see it.. we are ALL still Americans.

So as Put by a Earlier Post.. Go sit your Fat Ass down at a Local Starbucks with there Free WiFi, pull out your laptop.. sip your Java Chip Frappachino get all Hypy with what was wrote and argue..

Its your Right to do so..

[kingkilburn]

You needs some fucking respect you piece of shit. How dare YOU disrespect my mother who served 20+ years. I fully respect and appreciate those who serve that does not mean I will go kick some other persons door in who is no threat to me nor does it mean I will sit in front the main gate if the nearest installation doing some flower child bull shit.

It is painfully obvious that you read what ever the hell you wanted into mu comments.



You sir can kiss my ass. I am done with this thread.


EDIT: Who the fuck was bashing(for serving) you or calling you unAmerican? I have repeatedly said I think it is very commendable to serve.

[ESmorz]

This thread sucks.

I'll just say this, if my friends were headed towards some people who I thought, and was told have weapons I probably would pull the trigger.

That being said, I would never put myself in that position i.e. joining the armed forces and such.

[S14DB]

You needs some fucking respect you piece of shit. How dare YOU disrespect my mother who served 20+ years. I fully respect and appreciate those who serve that does not mean I will go kick some other persons door in who is no threat to me nor does it mean I will sit in front the main gate if the nearest installation doing some flower child bull shit.

It is painfully obvious that you read what ever the hell you wanted into mu comments.



You sir can kiss my ass. I am done with this thread.


EDIT: Who the fuck was bashing(for serving) you or calling you unAmerican? I have repeatedly said I think it is very commendable to serve.
AWESOME DEFLECTION!!!

When the fuck did he talk about your Mother? He was asking how your mom would feel about YOU.

[Drift N Dragg]

You needs some fucking respect you piece of shit. How dare YOU disrespect my mother who served 20+ years. I fully respect and appreciate those who serve that does not mean I will go kick some other persons door in who is no threat to me nor does it mean I will sit in front the main gate if the nearest installation doing some flower child bull shit.

It is painfully obvious that you read what ever the hell you wanted into mu comments.



You sir can kiss my ass. I am done with this thread.


EDIT: Who the fuck was bashing(for serving) you or calling you unAmerican? I have repeatedly said I think it is very commendable to serve.

Wow .. You took that to a Whole New Level..

Never did I talk about your mother in Dis-Respect.. I think you need to Relax and re-read what i wrote..

I would Never Dis-Respect a Military Member, Or someone's Parent, whether or Not they served or Not... That is not who I am or what I am about..

I also never said it was UnAmerican.. I Understand where you stand when it comes to were people Serve..

So take a step back, breathe and realize the statement I have made..

[imotion s14]

"It is the Soldier

It is the soldier, not the reporter,
who has given us freedom of the press.

It is the soldier, not the poet,
who has given us freedom of speech.

It is the soldier, not the campus organizer,
who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.

It is the soldier, not the lawyer,
who has given us the right to a fair trial.

It is the soldier,
who salutes the flag,
who serves under the flag,
and whose coffin is draped by the flag,
who allows the protester to burn the flag."

By Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, USMC


What about the minutemen militias who fought in the Revolutionary War?

[raz0rbladez909]

What about the minutemen militias who fought in the Revolutionary War?

I would say that reservists today, would closely resemble what the minutemen of the past were, if not exactly. But I would say minutemen were more like drafted soldiers who they could not afford to provide uniforms for, even though they still received training of some sort.


And whats his face kingkilburn whatever it is you took that post however you were imagining someone to respond to your post without reading it. He didn't insult your mother, get your panties out of your ass, and if you'd like continue with the discussion of the retarded photogs getting owned for walking around with people with rpg's and ak's.

[imotion s14]

they weren't drafted, the didn't enlist. they weren't soldiers. they were ordinary men.

[raz0rbladez909]

which is why i said LIKE, the colonial militia were all "ordinary men" its not like they had some great training back then, the definition of a militia is this

Main Entry: mi·li·tia
Pronunciation: \mə-ˈli-shə\
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin, military service, from milit-, miles
Date: 1625
1 a : a part of the organized armed forces of a country liable to call only in emergency b : a body of citizens organized for military service
2 : the whole body of able-bodied male citizens declared by law as being subject to call to military service

Main Entry: min·ute·man
Pronunciation: \ˈmi-nət-ˌman\
Function: noun
Date: 1774
: a member of a group of men pledged to take up arms at a minute's notice during and immediately before the American Revolution


Sounds alot like a reservist to me, do you feel you somehow have a connection to these minutemen? I'm not saying everyone should join the military, in fact alot of people shouldn't, but i don't see your point in bringing up a war from the 1700's to use against a quote from a few years ago, unless you are purely overanalyzing the quote, which is all it is, an opinionated quote that someone liked and uses it for motivation. So what about the minutemen, the colonial army/navy, the confederates and the union, the soldiers from world wars I and II, etc. need I go on, apparently the quote got to you somehow, because the quote isn't intended to talk about a war from 200 something years ago, it was for motivation during a time of war recently.

[JDMpurest]

which is why i said LIKE, the colonial militia were all "ordinary men" its not like they had some great training back then, the definition of a militia is this

Main Entry: mi·li·tia
Pronunciation: \mə-ˈli-shə\
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin, military service, from milit-, miles
Date: 1625
1 a : a part of the organized armed forces of a country liable to call only in emergency b : a body of citizens organized for military service
2 : the whole body of able-bodied male citizens declared by law as being subject to call to military service

Main Entry: min·ute·man
Pronunciation: \ˈmi-nət-ˌman\
Function: noun
Date: 1774
: a member of a group of men pledged to take up arms at a minute's notice during and immediately before the American Revolution


Sounds alot like a reservist to me, do you feel you somehow have a connection to these minutemen? I'm not saying everyone should join the military, in fact alot of people shouldn't, but i don't see your point in bringing up a war from the 1700's to use against a quote from a few years ago, unless you are purely overanalyzing the quote, which is all it is, an opinionated quote that someone liked and uses it for motivation. So what about the minutemen, the colonial army/navy, the confederates and the union, the soldiers from world wars I and II, etc. need I go on, apparently the quote got to you somehow, because the quote isn't intended to talk about a war from 200 something years ago, it was for motivation during a time of war recently.

um no sir you a very mistaken that is not all the quote is and it is definitly not opinion it is fact. Not many words have been spoken that have more truth than those. Please get your facts straight sir.

[KA24DESOneThree]

*snip*

The ultimate reason for the military is defense. This war was not in our defense. There are other, modern reasons for the military: peacekeeping, drug law enforcement, humanitarian aid, etc. However, the military's ultimate raison d'etre is defense and, in defending, waging war.

I am part of the militia. The military is not. Any man paid by government to take up arms is not a part of the militia, he is a soldier.

Do not bring up any war but this one. Any other war is a red herring. Drop any pretense that this conversation covered anything other than the current war. You didn't serve in WWII, nor are we discussing its merits or lack thereof. We are talking about this current war being waged in (on?) Iraq and Afghanistan.

I am not ungrateful, I just do not see the necessity to fight other peoples' wars for them. I am ungrateful that we are wasting money.

This war was about avenging a wrong. We have wronged two countries in the process. I don't care that we've built schools, built infrastructure, "saved lives." That was money which should have been used in our borders. That was money which belonged to the US. Gas which belonged to the US. Bullets and blood which belonged to the US. No other country deserves that which Americans have worked for unless Americans give it themselves. It is not the government's to give, and not the military's to give.

You think this is treason? Wasting the US' money, a byproduct of the work of Americans gathered by a damn-near dictatorial regime, is treasonous. You went over there, pretended to be the good guys while invading a sovereign country, and wasted that money. Your paychecks are paid for with stolen money, congratulations. Your grub, your armor, your ammo; all stolen money to "increase" the standing of the US in the eyes of the world. Instead, we're the police force, the cowboys, the pathetic egomaniacal bully who takes the place of a bigger bully and claims to do good while still giving a pounding to the populace.

My father was in Vietnam. My fiancee's father was in Vietnam. My grandfather was in the Army. My older brother was in the Corps. My great-uncle was hit by a shell on Normandy and disappeared in sand and gore. My family has served; I will not.

[JDMpurest]

I never thought in the world that i would say this but i am ashamed that i am fighting for your freedom to say those words. The heroes that where in your family would kill you if they knew the words you have spoken. You are a fucking little ungrateful piece of shit, you are worth no more than the cow shit soldiers in Afghanistan have to sleep in.



The ultimate reason for the military is defense. This war was not in our defense. There are other, modern reasons for the military: peacekeeping, drug law enforcement, humanitarian aid, etc. However, the military's ultimate raison d'etre is defense and, in defending, waging war.

I am part of the militia. The military is not. Any man paid by government to take up arms is not a part of the militia, he is a soldier.

Do not bring up any war but this one. Any other war is a red herring. Drop any pretense that this conversation covered anything other than the current war. You didn't serve in WWII, nor are we discussing its merits or lack thereof. We are talking about this current war being waged in (on?) Iraq and Afghanistan.

I am not ungrateful, I just do not see the necessity to fight other peoples' wars for them. I am ungrateful that we are wasting money.

This war was about avenging a wrong. We have wronged two countries in the process. I don't care that we've built schools, built infrastructure, "saved lives." That was money which should have been used in our borders. That was money which belonged to the US. Gas which belonged to the US. Bullets and blood which belonged to the US. No other country deserves that which Americans have worked for unless Americans give it themselves. It is not the government's to give, and not the military's to give.

You think this is treason? Wasting the US' money, a byproduct of the work of Americans gathered by a damn-near dictatorial regime, is treasonous. You went over there, pretended to be the good guys while invading a sovereign country, and wasted that money. Your paychecks are paid for with stolen money, congratulations. Your grub, your armor, your ammo; all stolen money to "increase" the standing of the US in the eyes of the world. Instead, we're the police force, the cowboys, the pathetic egomaniacal bully who takes the place of a bigger bully and claims to do good while still giving a pounding to the populace.

My father was in Vietnam. My fiancee's father was in Vietnam. My grandfather was in the Army. My older brother was in the Corps. My great-uncle was hit by a shell on Normandy and disappeared in sand and gore. My family has served; I will not.

[kingkilburn]

YOU ARE NOT FIGHTING FOR OUR FREEDOM! END OF STORY. NO DEBATE.


That fight was won for you more than 200 years ago and you don't get to claim that as your victory.

[98koukile]

It's funny how the Boston tea party was brought up and how we rose against England who was trying to control us... yet how easily we forget the past. We call everyone fighting for Iraq an insurgent or a terrorist. You bring your soldiers to my town, attack my neighbors, I'll have more than an AK. Those men could have been there to protect their children, they could have just as easily been a line of defense because they heard gun fire approaching their town. It's so easy to judge someone, like saying you don't know because you're not there fighting. Well sirs, I hope you don't have children that go to public school because one hour in Iraq could run multiple schools here for a year. I'm all for joining the Military, know any branch that will take a bum knee? Just don't send me to Iraq, I already have a flag from that one.

Here's the key to thinking outside of the box, America is not the only country in the world... and other countries have the same reaction to us invading them as we did when England was controlling us. I support my country through thick and thin and that will never change... I hope

[Drift N Dragg]

Unlike you, I will leave what you wrote. Instead of deleting the Important Information that misguided people like yourself tend to do.

The ultimate reason for the military is defense. This war was not in our defense. There are other, modern reasons for the military: peacekeeping, drug law enforcement, humanitarian aid, etc. However, the military's ultimate raison d'etre is defense and, in defending, waging war..

This War was not in Our Defense? Hmm So does that mean that No plane's Struck the World Trade Towers? No Plane Struck the Pentagon? No Plane crash landed because of the Bravey of an AMERICAN Pasenger that was not going to let then Terriorize him?

You are Right in the Fact, Yes the Military has OTHER functions.. And currently are providing those Services as well..

Exactly Which War Did America Wage that was not in Reaction to Someone or Some Country threatening the United States as a Whole?

I am part of the militia. The military is not. Any man paid by government to take up arms is not a part of the militia, he is a soldier..

This, out of everything you wrote is Correct... in a ackward way of describing it.

Do not bring up any war but this one. Any other war is a red herring. Drop any pretense that this conversation covered anything other than the current war. You didn't serve in WWII, nor are we discussing its merits or lack thereof. We are talking about this current war being waged in (on?) Iraq and Afghanistan..

Why Not? Is it because you cannot prove wrong within the exception of this war?

It's painfully obvious that I was proving my Point on what your last Post stated. Ofcoarse I did not Serve in WWII, that would make me rather old.. But does not mean that somenoe in my Family did not.. Possibly may have talked to them, learned from them, listen to there stories.. hmmm weird..

There were no ' Lack-There-Of ' Merits on WWII .. Unless you feel like you are a commie? Because thats Exactly what you would be right if they won..

But I agree this Topic is about Iraq and Afghanistan, But again referencing other War's to prove a Point, that is seems you are missing...

I am not ungrateful, I just do not see the necessity to fight other peoples' wars for them. I am ungrateful that we are wasting money..

I think is this a Moment that I will say, I agree. I do not believe in fighting someone else's war.. BUT in part, it is still our War..

This war was about avenging a wrong. We have wronged two countries in the process. I don't care that we've built schools, built infrastructure, "saved lives." That was money which should have been used in our borders. That was money which belonged to the US. Gas which belonged to the US. Bullets and blood which belonged to the US. No other country deserves that which Americans have worked for unless Americans give it themselves. It is not the government's to give, and not the military's to give..

Exactly how have we Wronged 2 countries that hides and conseals terroists..

The one Point you are missing is that those Schools, Infrastuctures created Contracts, which Created Jobs.. I have friends that worked on those projects.. I know friends that work for companies that CREATED the Material that went into those Contracts.. hmm sounds like it Still came back to the United States.

And that is Public Information... Research it.

You think this is treason? Wasting the US' money, a byproduct of the work of Americans gathered by a damn-near dictatorial regime, is treasonous. You went over there, pretended to be the good guys while invading a sovereign country, and wasted that money. Your paychecks are paid for with stolen money, congratulations. Your grub, your armor, your ammo; all stolen money to "increase" the standing of the US in the eyes of the world. Instead, we're the police force, the cowboys, the pathetic egomaniacal bully who takes the place of a bigger bully and claims to do good while still giving a pounding to the populace..

In other Countries, your Freedom of Speech, is Treason.. Speak against the Country and Away you go.

Stolen Money, eh? Funny you say that.. Could have Sworen the Military Members were Paid by the TAX Payer's.. I Don't remember someone holding a gun to your head, stealing your Paycheck..

So we are the World's Police... And? Someone at some point has to Stand up and Say ' Enough is Enough.. ', But you wouldn't see that because you were born with these Freedoms that others do not have.. the Rights when other have none...

My father was in Vietnam. My fiancee's father was in Vietnam. My grandfather was in the Army. My older brother was in the Corps. My great-uncle was hit by a shell on Normandy and disappeared in sand and gore. My family has served; I will not.

And again, its your RIGHT to not Join... Other Countries you are forced too against your will..

In Conclusion to your post.. I don't see you as blind, but someone that does not hold all the facts to the situation..

Everyone is entitled to there Own Opinion and outlook on each topic.. Not saying yours is wrong, Not saying my is Right.. But atleast be thankful that you are allowed to express it freely without being prosecuted.

YOU ARE NOT FIGHTING FOR OUR FREEDOM! END OF STORY. NO DEBATE.


That fight was won for you more than 200 years ago and you don't get to claim that as your victory.

1st: Your Blindness is sad to see, especially since you said your Mother has served 20+ years.. How about you express this to Her and please let us know what she says ( And just incase you get Sensitive, I was NOT saying ANYTHING BAD ABOUT YOUR MOTHER, I would just like to Honestly know what she has to say to her Son about this.. its a Honest question )

2nd: Apperently you do not understand Heritage, Honor, Pride in your Country, and Sacrifices made that impacted today..

[kingkilburn]

What makes you think you get to take responsibility for a war you were not in?

The way you talk there can be no debate. Your way of proving your point is to bash the opposition and twist words and ideas. Their is no debate here.



As member of the armed services do you honestly believe a plane crashed into the Pentagon? The US government left one it's most important structures defenseless? I find that very hard to accept, in fact I can't.


As far as my mom goes; who do you think shaped my views on government and the military? She was happy to go to Hungry and El Salvador, even Korea. When there was even a remote chance of her going to Iraq she did what she thought was right in her mind and got out to her own detriment. She had no wish to be Bush pawn of revenge against Saddam Hussein. Her time in the Army told her that if he was to be deposed it should be done by the UN and not by us. She agonizes over her decision to retire but in hind site she is happy that she did get killed in a war fought under false pretenses.


If you want to get into the merits or lack there of of any war since our war of independence I will be happy to educate you.



Comparing America do another country in not an argument.


I'll say it again you are not defending any of my constitutional rights. I defend them through continuing to exercise them.

It is the citizen's role to defend the constitution from the government.
It is the military's role to defend the citizen from any outside aggressors.

You need to decide for yourself as a serviceman, do you defend the people or the government. Those are very different things. If you do not understand these concepts you need to educate yourself on the political philosophy that this Republic was founded on.

[98koukile]

This War was not in Our Defense? Hmm So does that mean that No plane's Struck the World Trade Towers? No Plane Struck the Pentagon? No Plane crash landed because of the Bravey of an AMERICAN Pasenger that was not going to let then Terriorize him?

And the irony is the fact that many uneducated people use this argument as to why we're in Iraq. No one in Iraq posed a threat to America directly. We went in for Operation Iraqi Freedom. Bush had to make up for his fathers shortcomings. We wanted an ally with oil. There are no known weapons of mass destruction. It was all a ploy. If our government had said... we want to free these people from injustice and wrong doing no one in the world would have helped... so we used propaganda to sell this war to the world. This I am against, this I will never agree with. After all, this country was founded on principles that can be timeless if followed, we've strayed off the path and need to find our way back. It's time we start helping make the world and our country a better place... and stop trying to make our country the world.

[kingkilburn]

I'm fine with taking over the world if that's what we want but that means open invitation to statehood. We can not continue to have our money inflated and stolen from us just to throw it away on another country that may not be successful or even friendly.

[JDMpurest]

You people are morons, we are fighting to keep terrorists out of our country. Your mom is a fucking dick bag tell her i said thanks for serving cowardly. She didn't want to go to Iraq? Then she shouldn't have joined. I'm ready and down to deploy at any second. Thats my job and i knew that when i wrote a blank check in service to this country.

"I, (NAME), do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

You wouldnt know anything about this quote tho because you've never sworn it.

I only pray to God that people like you would get as heated and pissed off about terrorists and our enemies as you do when people talk shit about your pussy liberal mom who loved the benefits of the military but wouldn't pay the ultimate price for them.

[kingkilburn]

You sir would be a dead man if you said that to my face. Isn't nice to hide behind your keyboard.

She completely fulfilled her oath. At the point when she lost faith in her chain of command she got out.

[JDMpurest]

Do you know how many terrorist plots the military has stopped because we are in the middle east? There in the correct news every day. It's cool tho as I lace up my boots put my uniform on that people have died in for your freedom even today, it's cool knowing that people like you take the safety we give you for granted.

[kingkilburn]

That is for the UN to handle. If you want to go police the world Go join them.

We need to be in Afghanistan, Iraq we have no business in. No one in Iraq threatened my freedom. There were no terrorists before we got there. If they hadn't invaded the war in Afghanistan would be over.

I love how you sit on your high hoarse while burning a dollar. It really shows your character.

[Drift N Dragg]

Ok This Thread Just Hit the point of no Return..

Before this gets worse I am closing this Thread..