Healthcare Bill Passed Thread

[jspaeth]

Healthcare bill just passed, let's hear some thoughts.



Personally, I believe this is just one sign of a fundamental divide in our coutnry.

I believe, like John Boehner said, that this is a move toward a society in which the "outcomes of our life are guaranteed," rather than one in which WE are free to make the most of our lives.

Personally, I believe that in many senses, the Democratic Party is the party of people that can't do for themselves.

I TRULY believe that if you divided the country into 2 societies, one side all Democrats, one side all others, and gave each side EQUAL natural resources to start, the Democratic society would fail and the "other" side would prosper.


Sick of failures and lazy asses bringing every one else down. If I want to help you, that is my CHOICE, not your right.

[wh0aitznic0]

Don't feel like googling, but I'm guessing this gives free healthcare to people like in Europe and Canada?

If it is, I knew it was coming. I told everybody that Obama was socialist before he got elected.

[AE_Racer]

Hooray for socialism. /sarcasm

[Matej]

Yes.
Excited about this.

[MisawaJason]

We're all fucked now. Fucking Democrat fucks

[lflkajfj12123]

I can't wait to be poor.

[hockeyrules]

yea im going to have to agree with just about everyone. I don't really want to be paying for people that don't want to work/pay there own health care.

[drift freaq]

here we go the way of France. The only hope is enough people get upset about this that it effects the congressional elections this fall.

Fuck they have renters tax, tax on dividends, plus a few other taxes that got tacked on in the last week to supposedly make it not increase the deficit.

Great now I am going to have to pay all this extra taxes for the fucks that feel entitled without working for it.

[theicecreamdan]

How many people are going to actually get free healthcare from this?

The biggest thing I see from this is that everybody is required to have insurance.

This isn't what Canada or Europeans have.

[BustedS13]

this is great. i'm excited.
i've never understood why people do not care about their fellow man.

[BustedS13]

Don't feel like googling, but I'm guessing this gives free healthcare to people like in Europe and Canada?

If it is, I knew it was coming. I told everybody that Obama was socialist before he got elected.

ha ha ha oh wow.

[Gnnr]

Oh please

Everything is a doomsday scenario here

I'm glad it passed.

Maybe they'll shut up about it.

Or maybe Rush Limbaugh will leave

Limbaugh ‘leaving the country’ if health reform passes | Raw Story (http://rawstory.com/2010/03/limbaugh-leaving-country-health-reform/)

And we'll have one less fatass complaining

Nothing crazy is gonna happen in this country

I'll be here in 2015 laughing at everyone...including the 2012 nutcases.

[Homer_Simpson]

Sick of failures and lazy asses bringing every one else down. If I want to help you, that is my CHOICE, not your right.

Agreed!

Message length.

[Mister.E]

Great now I am going to have to pay all this extra taxes for the fucks that feel entitled without working for it.

i agree

i already hate paying for fucks who live off of welfare and abuse the system, so this really isnt helping me any.

[kingkilburn]

Is this about the healthcare bill or bashing Democrats?

I'm down for both.

We desperately need a viable 3rd party along with enough smaller parties to shake it up. We also need people who vote based on the person rather than the party they represent(no mater what party that may be).

[BustedS13]

i hope we get that midwest bullet train squared away next.

hope and change, get used to it or pack your shit and get the fuck out.

taking America back yall.

[Mister.E]

We also need people who vote based on the person rather than the party they represent(no mater what party that may be).

As much as this would be nice to see, i just dont ever forsee it happening anytime during my lifespan.

[Gnnr]

i hope we get that midwest bullet train squared away next.

hope and change, get used to it or pack your shit and get the fuck out.

taking America back yall.

I second that motion.

http://i42.tinypic.com/1zqg2rs.jpg

:keke:

[Felipe]

NWO! here i come! lol

[lou's40sx]

I blame the immigrants. I blame all the Illegals and Legals! Everyone brought the U.S.A down (Except for the Native Americans).

All you non Native Americans are Failures (including me).

Republicans are failures as well as Democrats. People (citizens) are all failures because you believe that it really matters if you're Rep. or Demo. or Independent. The real issue is that GAS IS STILL OVER $3.25 CENTS.

Things will all make sense, and Equality will exist when Zilvians figure out why the hell they spend their money invested into a piece of junk 240 instead of just buying Life insurance or health care. The same amount it takes to go to the track once and month, ($80-200) you can buy Superb health care.

So, screw health care, screw air bags, screw anyone that said "you can't use JB weld on that."
You already gave up a safe life when you bought an S13 death trap. =)

[Mister.E]

^ i think this guy might be on the verge of commiting suicide

[ryguy]

The biggest thing I see from this is that everybody is required to have insurance.


True, but there are going to be HUGE subsidies for poor (lazy) asses who can't afford insurance on their own.

For the first time in our history, there will be a new capital gains, dividends, and interest tax specifically to pay for healthcare. That was once the burden of the worker receiving the healthcare (social security taxes.) Now the tax burden is being shifted to those who do not need to use Social Security (or for the sake of this argument, the new government subsidies).

Not to mention, there will be specific taxes on profits of healthcare insurance providers, and specific taxes on premium health insurance plans.

I for one can't wait for election time. Congress is going to see a huge Republican wave. Too bad it's too late.

This is not what America was supposed to be. Hell, the federal government has no constitutional power to even do this. Healthcare should be left to the states.

[negrosx13]

Awesome more money taxed from my pay check...this bs sucks! how are people suppose to live if all our money is going to taxes for bs...there raising the price on everything and people arent more money to cover..i personally dont have health care but then again i don't get sick often. if i do got some old school Spanish style healing to get me better.

But then if the bill wouldn't have passed then you'll have pissed off mob of people marching and protest the streets cause they didn't get there way.. Country is broke and people don't understand that..

[HalveBlue]

Oh nooooooooooooooes. Here comes the communism.

I'm glad this passed.

About damn time.

[ryguy]

Country is broke and people don't understand that..

As long as Uncle Sam is giving out free shit, people are too ignorant to care.

[negrosx13]

Republicans are failures as well as Democrats. People (citizens) are all failures because you believe that it really matters if you're Rep. or Demo. or Independent. The real issue is that GAS IS STILL OVER $3.25 CENTS.

Things will all make sense, and Equality will exist when Zilvians figure out why the hell they spend their money invested into a piece of junk 240 instead of just buying Life insurance or health care. The same amount it takes to go to the track once and month, ($80-200) you can buy Superb health care.

So, screw health care, screw air bags, screw anyone that said "you can't use JB weld on that."
You already gave up a safe life when you bought an S13 death trap. =)


Thats another thing gas is all over the place,here in new 93 is $3.30 in some place,once the summer is here then what? $5buck how it was;what like 2 years ago..then The MTA wants to raise the tolls and fare again..The bridge that i need to cross everyday to get home cost 11bucks for those who dont have a ez-pass and are resident of staten island..!:naw::wtc:

[I LUV MY S13]

idk...i dont really want my checks getting taxed more because ppl dont wanna do shit and get off their asses..i mean dont get me wrong, there are those who cant work(old, sick etc) but there are plenty more who just sit at home and wait for those welfare, foodstamps, unemployment etc etc...people just milkin the system

stop the support and create jobs..?

green party ftw

[Gnnr]

You're still bitching about useless shit, when the freaking real issue is that GAS IS STILL OVER $3.25 CENTS.

Ehh, its still too cheap. I want it to double so there's less traffic. :2f2f:

[lou's40sx]

Isn't a Republican by the name of G.W. Bush that got us here?

It's the Bush family's choice to screw the nation, and NOT our right to let it happen?

[Mister.E]

As long as Uncle Sam is giving out free shit, people are too ignorant to care.

Too bad most people dont realize that it's not fucking free. I think a lot of people fail to realize that if they dont purchase some type of health care plan there will be penalties. They dont understand that they must purchase insurance or pay a penalty that would be the greater of $750 or 2% of their income by 2016.

[BustedS13]

True, but there are going to be HUGE subsidies for poor (lazy) asses who can't afford insurance on their own.



poor = lazy
freedom = slavery
ignorance = strength

[Gnnr]

Congress clears historic health care bill - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_health_care_overhaul;_ylt=A0LEaoJNDqdLuSUAyhms0 NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNua3VpbW9uBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwMzIyL 3VzX2hlYWx0aF9jYXJlX292ZXJoYXVsBGNjb2RlA21vc3Rwb3B 1bGFyBGNwb3MDMQRwb3MDMgRwdANob21lX2Nva2UEc2VjA3luX 3RvcF9zdG9yeQRzbGsDY29uZ3Jlc3NjbGVh)
To pay for the changes, the legislation includes more than $400 billion in higher taxes over a decade, roughly half of it from a new Medicare payroll tax on individuals with incomes over $200,000 and couples over $250,000. A new excise tax on high-cost insurance policies was significantly scaled back in deference to complaints from organized labor.

Damn, I wouldn't be driving a 240 if I made that much. ;)

[ryguy]

Isn't a Republican by the name of G.W. Bush that got us here?

It's the Bush family's choice to screw the nation, and NOT our right to let it happen?

It's ignorant statements like this that make me sick over the state of our country.


On an unrelated note, you can't make the weak strong by making the strong weak. This boils down to redistribution of wealth, and that never has worked in the whole of modern history.

[upsdude]

i'm with freaq on this one...one more entitlement that will be mismanaged and abused. no one seems to consider the following dilema: where are we gonna get qualified doctors to treat the 16 million+ people who just got their free healthcare? it's bad enough as it is trying to schedule an appointment.

[mothon]

All i know is i will now have health insurance under my parent plan until i am 26. I havn't had insurance since i was 21, and i have wisdom teeth that need to be removed pretty bad.

[I LUV MY S13]

so what happens to insurance companies?

[ryguy]

so what happens to insurance companies?

They pretty much get raped. Extending coverage to those with pre-existing conditions is not fair. As cruel as it sounds, that is not the point of health insurance. They are more or less being boxed in so that they cannot make profits. They are going to be taxed into oblivion. HOWEVER, I do agree with the new law stating they cannot drop people who contract expensive illnesses.

[lou's40sx]

Resolution to save America and it's health care:

1. Make it illegal to outsource to other countries
2. Make it legal for illegals to work, Make them pay taxes.
3. Stop the war on Illegals, because it's wasting money and doesn't work, I see them every day passing by Homedepot.
4. Stop the war on drugs, because it's wasting money and not working.
5. Stop bs'ing about Global Warming, it really doesn't matter because I'll be dead if it was true, and if you have kids, well, sue Trojan.
6. Make felons pay off their debts to society by making them build more highways and drift courses and mountain roads.
7. Give poor people health care parts but ONLY Chinese parts, Save the good JDM parts for people who can afford it.

[Gnnr]

All i know is i will now have health insurance under my parent plan until i am 26. I havn't had insurance since i was 21, and i have wisdom teeth that need to be removed pretty bad.

Umm, lol. Its NOT gonna kick in this year bud. You better get that checked out soon.

[ryguy]

Resolution to save America and it's health care:

I seriously hope you are kidding about all of that, because I can't tell.

[negrosx13]

As long as Uncle Sam is giving out free shit, people are too ignorant to care.

you're 100% right...little life story about people who use the gov drain it
These freaking neighbors i got that live next door. Ghetto ass people playing music all times of the day&night( sometimes ) like its the projects at my house.. I don't know how then can afford the rent here( $1700+light and gas ) but they must be on section 8.

For who don't know what's section8= where the state/city pretty much plays 40-60%of your rent. Which is nice for some people who really need but others dont. best part its nice on tax payers wallets like myself:-/. Left my house this afternoon to go to work,there playing music inside the house loud and outside while they're messing some car( car radio is blasting ) and just chillen smoking weed. while kids( kid bro and step sister) are playing outside.


sorry i had to release that:hide:

[I LUV MY S13]

yeah drug war may not bring drugs to a hault, but it surely slows it down

[lou's40sx]

Health care should be like auto parts.

They should make basic heath care like cheap or free, if you have money you can upgrade.

For instance basic health care would be like Free Cracked dash, it works, it's not great but it does the job. Upgrade to those who can afford it, a dash mat, or even a clean dash, and ballers can Flock it or wrap it in suede or leather.

So you don't have to get all angry, it's just a cracked dash. ~

[upsdude]

what's with punishing the rich? i know they're easy targets right now because of the wall street bullshit and all...but seriously how is it fair to target people who are successful? Obama turned out to be another slick talking snake in the grass politician. i still don't get why there's legislation regarding student loans in this bill-it's got nothing to do with healthcare.

[lou's40sx]

^^How do you punish the rich? Oh, you can't have 2 Ferrari's, only 1! That will punish you.

[Agamemnon]

this is great. i'm excited.
i've never understood why people do not care about their fellow man.
The problem is that when convincing people to care doesn't work, people like you want to force them to care.

America is about free choices. Forcing citizens to purchase a product they dont want goes against everything this country stands for: free will.

[negrosx13]

^^^lmfaoo no Bently gt either! you gota sell it:faint:

[lou's40sx]

It's ignorant statements like this that make me sick over the state of our country.


On an unrelated note, you can't make the weak strong by making the strong weak. This boils down to redistribution of wealth, and that never has worked in the whole of modern history.

It's greed and power that is ignorance that blinds people and it is the downfall of many societies. So, let's not stop strong Hitler and let the weak jews fend for themselves.

Because not checking the balance of power will lead to WW3. That is why the US checks Korea and China, but once the weak become stronger it will repeat the whole cycle again. Just people with money don't want to give it up, shoot, if i was rich I wouldn't either.

[lou's40sx]

And if you live in America, you should just shut up all together.

People in other countries wish they were the homeless' of our country.

[upsdude]

one thing i absolutely despise about this bill: you HAVE to have insurance or else you can be fined...starting at $325 a year. unbelievable.

[BustedS13]

you guys could probably get a group rate on plane tickets to canada. give me a date, i'll help look

[lflkajfj12123]

USA is supposed to be a capitalist country and the competition of profit is the motivation for labor. This healthcare bill reeks of socialism and supports laziness.

Wasn't the cold war the USA fighting against socialism and here we are becoming more and more what we hated so much.

[lou's40sx]

Just trade medical procedures for JDM parts.

Trades welcome:

Looking to trade my Kidneys for a KADE. I will install the kidney for free.

[Agamemnon]

what's with punishing the rich? i know they're easy targets right now because of the wall street bullshit and all...but seriously how is it fair to target people who are successful? Obama turned out to be another slick talking snake in the grass politician. i still don't get why there's legislation regarding student loans in this bill-it's got nothing to do with healthcare.

Dude. It's all about class warfare. the poor want to blame the rich for their problems. Even the the vast amjority of wealthy folks worked hard for what they have. Typically these are business owners that will inevitably slash salaries or layoff workers due to increasing taxes.

This will all trickle down in the end. Go ahead and tax those that make over $200k. Tax your bosses and see how long your salary or job lasts.

[BustedS13]

Wasn't the cold war the USA fighting against socialism and here we are becoming more and more what we hated so much.

what our parents and grandparents were told to hate.
you're allowed to change your mind :)

p.s. libraries schools firemen police men lol

[BustedS13]

Just trade medical procedures for JDM parts.

Trades welcome:

Looking to trade my Kidneys for a KADE. I will install the kidney for free.

both or just one?
three kidneys here i come

[lou's40sx]

what our parents and grandparents were told to hate.
you're allowed to change your mind :)

p.s. libraries schools firemen police men lol


Fire-person, and police officer. To be correct. Sexist!

[Agamemnon]

Just trade medical procedures for JDM parts.

Trades welcome:

Looking to trade my Kidneys for a KADE. I will install the kidney for free.

Jesus Christ! Would you fucking shut up about the car parts already. It wasn't funny the first time and it isn't funny now.

[lou's40sx]

Jesus Christ! Would you fucking shut up about the car parts already. It wasn't funny the first time and it isn't funny now.


Damn, you need anger management. I hope that's included in the Health care bill. RELAX! It's the internet, it ain't real. And Seattle has the highest suicide rate due to the vast amounts of rain.

[Mister.E]

why are you in here ranting about pointless shit?

[kingkilburn]

Two things they didn't address at all with this bill that I think are crucial are malpractice insurance and cost of care(things like the cost medical equipment and basic care).


I have heard of many a doctor that goes out of business because he or she could not afford malpractice insurance. It should not cost a doctor up to 60% of their money(as a business) just for insurance against frivolous law suits.


As far as cost of care goes just take a look at how much you spend for a regular check up or ER visit. I don't like spending hundreds just to wait for an hour when I was on time to only see the doctor for ten minutes. ER visits are just ridiculous. Thousands of dollars for noninvasive medical care such as a broken arm is crazy. Basic medical care like this didn't cost any where near this much for our grandparents and they didn't have insurance to offset the cost.

[kingkilburn]

And if you live in America, you should just shut up all together.

People in other countries wish they were the homeless' of our country.

Just because you have it ok does not mean you can't have it better and you shouldn't be made to feel bad for wanting more.

USA is supposed to be a capitalist country and the competition of profit is the motivation for labor. This healthcare bill reeks of socialism and supports laziness.

Wasn't the cold war the USA fighting against socialism and here we are becoming more and more what we hated so much.

Capitalism is not a political system and we have never been capitalist to begin with. Our country was founded on tariffs and monopolies. We are also a very socialist country while fearing the word. We have had socialist programs from almost the very beginning.

The Cold War was all about two empires pushing their spheres of influence through proxy wars. CCCP was not socialist or communist, it was very much a military dictatorship.


If you like this modern life you live you should really look into what has allowed you to live it. It is very likely that your water and power are or were at some point built and run by a government body of some sort. If you went to public school of any kind. If you have ever driven on a road. If you live near a dam. Have ever been to a park(local state or national). There are so many things the progressive movement gave to us and it seems like all this socialist bashing wants to forget about it.

[Mister.E]

if it's anything like military helath care, you won't be allowed to file a law suit for malpractice.

[negrosx13]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_4s5pmFL_ZlQ/St2qLbkOkDI/AAAAAAAACS8/zKqrkYJ7Yvs/s1600/DMV%2Bdepartment%2Bof%2Bmotor%2Bvehicles%2Bhealth% 2Bcare%2Breform%2Bbarack%2Bobama%2Bmotivational%2B posters%2Bdemotivational%2Bposters%2Bfunny%2Bhot%2 Bfree%2Bpolitical%2Bhumor%2Bparody%2Bgag.jpg

[kingkilburn]

if it's anything like military helath care, you won't be allowed to file a law suit for malpractice.

You can file against military healthcare but the statute of limitations is like 2 years. My brother has learning disabilities because of some quack doctor and by the time we found out it was to late to sue.


The way this seems to be set up the feds are brokering private insurance so I would think you would be able to sue.

Personally I am all for government run healthcare but this is a shitty compromise between the democrats and the insurance companies. They should have used the VA as a model and extended the same benefits to all citizens.

[Mister.E]

prime example of the awesome health care you receive in the military

Report details mistakes that cost airman legs - Air Force News, news from Iraq - Air Force Times (http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2010/03/airforce_read_report_031810w/)

im not the least bit impressed with the BS health care ive received during the time i've been in. they try to tell you that it's one of your "benefits" but i would rather be paying for real health care.

i welcome the rest of the nation to universal health care.

[0100]

stop the support and let them die.



fixed.....

[BustedS13]

Funny how anyone can be forced to join the Army and kill people they don't want to. But a mandate to buy health insurance (which is free if you can't afford even that) , is somehow outrageous.

[chucky norris]

Damn, you need anger management. I hope that's included in the Health care bill. RELAX! It's the internet, it ain't real. And Seattle has the highest suicide rate due to the vast amounts of rain.

lol keep it up i like your responses they crack me up:rofl:

[Ghost240]

I love the welfare references. You realize that majority of the people on welfare don't reside in the ghettos but in the poor no name rural parts of America? And as for whose fault it is that America is like this, I blame us, the citizenry. Over the years people have become more and more complacent as to what the government can do, say, and etc. As a result the people have become more ignorant of the initiatives, laws and policies. No one cared when we were in the upswing and careless spending occurred, but now that the tax burdened middle class is starting to buckle everyone screams foul. Where were you when they decided to change things? Did you make your voice heard? If not then STFU and deal with it or make your voice and opinion known.

And as for who this Healthcare plan is gonna benefit....effective as soon as it passed was college graduates. Instead of being booted off of your parents insurance, you have until 26 to get your own. This is a HUGE improvement especially to those struggling to find a job after college. With the employment rate trickling upwards, it isn't easy finding a job anymore. So to just make blanket statements about lazy fat asses not pulling their end, is pure ignorance on your part. As for the rest of the plan I am still investigating it and haven't determined how I feel about it.

And before you call me a liberal, democrat or republican, remember that those titles simply mean nothing and are for show. These words are so interchangeable that people often times don't know what they really mean anymore. No less than 30 or 40yrs ago today's democrats would've been considered republicans and vice versa. I am not affiliated with any freakin political party because it doesn't make sense to be. No one is truly black or white, there are alot of gray areas. So to be either or is foolish. Not to mention it goes against the basic principle of America. "United we stand, divided we fall" and we are so heavily divided it isn't even funny. And i do not place my faith in one person leading a nation of millions. All great change has come from the people. It wasn't given to them by anyone.

/rant

[KA24DESOneThree]

Funny how anyone can be forced to join the Army and kill people they don't want to. But a mandate to buy health insurance (which is free if you can't afford even that) , is somehow outrageous.

Uh... remember the uproar over the "fake" draft bill?

A government mandate to buy ANYTHING is outrageous.

To be forced to participate in a broken system is yet another example of the tyranny of our leaders.

[ronmcdon]

Can anyone provide a link with a more comprehensive, up-to-date list of the provisions?
this has been revised by the house & senate so much that it's difficult to keep up.

the wiki article is just too vague & lacking in details imo
Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_bill)

without going into the details,
I'm just skeptical we'll be spending $$$ on something that even works.
As mentioned prior (not just in this thread),
you can't just make the health-care system work by throwing money at it.

The added taxes are a bit drastic yes.
I recall the senate wanted to tax even something as absurd as cosmetic surgery?!
Wish more measures were taken to regulate the existing health insurance companies from abusive practices
(that wouldn't have cost taxpayers anything).

[jspaeth]

How many people are going to actually get free healthcare from this?

35 million. "They will have to pay too". Yeah right, and then they will get the money back as "tax credits" (aka getting tax money back they never paid in the first place).

As long as Uncle Sam is giving out free shit, people are too ignorant to care.

Perfectly correct.

Too bad most people dont realize that it's not fucking free. I think a lot of people fail to realize that if they dont purchase some type of health care plan there will be penalties. They dont understand that they must purchase insurance or pay a penalty that would be the greater of $750 or 2% of their income by 2016.

Hahahahah see above post. The government is going to give that money back to those people anyway in the form of "tax credits".....aka.....Person 1 payed 40% of his income in taxes, and we are going to give some of that to Person 2, who paid none.

what's with punishing the rich? i know they're easy targets right now because of the wall street bullshit and all...but seriously how is it fair to target people who are successful?

Exactly

^^How do you punish the rich? Oh, you can't have 2 Ferrari's, only 1! That will punish you.

Good saracasm. MOST people that are wealthy are that way because they are succesfful and work hard, and most poor people are poor because they (or their parents) were NOT successful or did NOT work hard.

America is about free choices. Forcing citizens to purchase a product they dont want goes against everything this country stands for: free will.

Correct again.

It's greed and power that is ignorance that blinds people and it is the downfall of many societies. So, let's not stop strong Hitler and let the weak jews fend for themselves.

Dumbass. The Jews were PHYSICALLY stopped from pursuing happiness by being rounded up and killed.

To compare that with people living in the US who fail to become successful in a society that does more than any other society ever to give people the CHANCE to be successful is complete ignorance.

Really, you are a moron.

Dude. It's all about class welfare. the poor want to blame the rich for their problems. Even the the vast amjority of wealthy folks worked hard for what they have. Typically these are business owners that will inevitably slash salaries or layoff workers due to increasing taxes.

This will all trickle down in the end. Go ahead and tax those that make over $200k. Tax your bosses and see how long your salary or job lasts.

Agreed. Our country sucks. A bunch of pussies that complain when those around them are more successful.

If you are unsuccessful in the US, it is because you have NO SKILLS THAT ARE VALUABLE TO ANYONE ELSE.

Too fucking bad, get good at something that someone will pay you or exchange services for.

[XnTroubleX]

Fuck the Government, and fuck all the people with the hand out wanting something given to them.

[Antihero983]

Fuck both sides, Reps and Dems. Politicians in general make me sick.

[EDT007]

Resolution to save America and it's health care:

1. Make it illegal to outsource to other countries
2. Make it legal for illegals to work, Make them pay taxes.
3. Stop the war on Illegals, because it's wasting money and doesn't work, I see them every day passing by Homedepot.
4. Stop the war on drugs, because it's wasting money and not working.
5. Stop bs'ing about Global Warming, it really doesn't matter because I'll be dead if it was true, and if you have kids, well, sue Trojan.
6. Make felons pay off their debts to society by making them build more highways and drift courses and mountain roads.
7. Give poor people health care parts but ONLY Chinese parts, Save the good JDM parts for people who can afford it.

Wow, seriously!? Shut the f*ck up with your worthless rantings. Go read a f*ckin' book! So in other words you want all the illegals to start working (therefore allowing them to be legal) and in such making the unemployment rate higher. As for the drugs, real smart. We'll have crackheads filling your prescription at the pharmacy. I can't wait till all the real #'s come out regarding this plan so I can see all these people's high spirits crumble. :cj:

[TheWolf]

the poor are terrible with money. That's why they're poor. You can not fix the "poor" by throwing money at the problem.

washington can burn... there's nothing left in there that represents america. Both parties have become fiscally irresponsible puppets looking out for their own interests.

If everyone is wrong. No one is right. 435 people with each having a 4 year college degree. Can't figure out this very simple concept.

While I hope no one is harmed, I know the war is coming. America is now permanently divided. Nothing can heal it. Nothing can stop it.

[aziankingz]

i seriously hope this is just a publicity stunt from obama and his staff and get rejected in the long run, then he can say he tried to make a change and did not break his promise.

if this does go into effect, the ones that are truly suffering are us low-middle class and middle income class WORKING people. I agree with some of you that this country has turned for the worse - giving money to those who do not want to work (poor motherfuckers) and they seriously take it for granted. I know these days are tough and it is tough to find a job, but i used to live with my grandparents in the projects in the lower east side and i see generations of these freeloaders (poor people) - we are practically throwing money into a pit, because these people are comfortable taking tax payer's money and i do not blame them. Why work your ass off when you can just get welfare, live in government projects, get WIC, etc for free? Now the government wants to throw in free healthcare - WOW!! They sure are going to love that. These are the same motherfuckers robbing people on the streets and drug dealing, etc.

[Gnnr]

This is a good read

How Obama Did It - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/dailybeast/20100322/ts_dailybeast/7238_howobamadidit;_ylt=A0LEapTlv6dLt4wApwms0NUE;_ ylu=X3oDMTJuOXJ0N2lqBGFzc2V0A2RhaWx5YmVhc3QvMjAxMD AzMjIvNzIzOF9ob3dvYmFtYWRpZGl0BHBvcwM3BHNlYwN5bl9t b3N0X3BvcHVsYXIEc2xrA2hvd29iYW1hZGlkaQ--)
.....Americans, it is sometimes said, are philosophically conservative but operationally liberal. We see ourselves as rugged, self-reliant folks who have made it without Washington’s help and believe others should do the same. It’s a flattering self-conception, and one Americans have little trouble reconciling with our dependence on Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, the veterans’ health system, federal aid to education, home mortgage deductions, federal road construction, farm subsidies and the like. (It is often the places where dependence on government is greatest—like Alaska, which lives on the oil dole, or the South, which reached economic parity with the rest of the country largely because of military and agricultural spending—that cling most fervently to this Glenn Beck fantasy.) But every generation or so, a president punctures the ideological veneer by focusing on what life is like for Americans who really are on their own. What it’s like “on the ground, in the field.”....


Ahh, Americans. :rolleyes:


i seriously hope this is just a publicity stunt from obama and his staff and get rejected in the long run, then he can say he tried to make a change and did not break his promise.

if this does go into effect, the ones that are truly suffering are us low-middle class and middle income class WORKING people. I agree with some of you that this country has turned for the worse - giving money to those who do not want to work (poor motherfuckers) and they seriously take it for granted. I know these days are tough and it is tough to find a job, but i used to live with my grandparents in the projects in the lower east side and i see generations of these freeloaders (poor people) - we are practically throwing money into a pit, because these people are comfortable taking tax payer's money and i do not blame them. Why work your ass off when you can just get welfare, live in government projects, get WIC, etc for free? Now the government wants to throw in free healthcare - WOW!! They sure are going to love that. These are the same motherfuckers robbing people on the streets and drug dealing, etc.

Who THE FUCK wants to live in the ghetto? You just stated why the hell you wouldn't want to.

Also its not a publicity stunt, it already passed. :rolleyes:

[theicecreamdan]

USA is supposed to be a capitalist country and the competition of profit is the motivation for labor. This healthcare bill reeks of socialism and supports laziness.

Wasn't the cold war the USA fighting against socialism and here we are becoming more and more what we hated so much.

Some markets just can't function for the good of the people with profit being the motivation. Most people aren't complaining about our other "socialized" services. There are times when I want to get what I pay for, I'm not interested in making another insurance executives next car payment when all I need is an inhaler so I can breathe easily.

I'd rather see cuts in military be the source of paying for our healthcare.

I don't really like being mandated to buy insurance when the insurance system is one that I still disagree with.

[roboticnissan]

i dont think that any one person on here fully knows enuff about how our govt actually works or how healthcare is paid for or given. or edd for that matter. so sick of these anti democrat or republican threads all you guys are one sided tards.

[kingkilburn]

It would seem that the consensus is that we don't like either one.

[aziankingz]

This is a good read




Ahh, Americans. :rolleyes:




Who THE FUCK wants to live in the ghetto? You just stated why the hell you wouldn't want to.

Also its not a publicity stunt, it already passed. :rolleyes:

like i said, they are comfortable there and get free shit from taxpayers..why move out? ive seen it with my own eyes.. theres fucking 2-3 generations living in majority of those apartments..

[jspaeth]

like i said, they are comfortable there and get free shit from taxpayers..why move out? ive seen it with my own eyes.. theres fucking 2-3 generations living in majority of those apartments..

I always love to hear from people that have actually seen it with their own eyes and have the guts to stand up and say it.

[Gnnr]

Oh please, I lived in the ghetto in the early 90s when the crack dealing and crime was at all time high in Miami. Its not fun being woken up at 3am having to duck on the floor because they where shooting outside. GTFO of here with that argument.

Some ≠ all. There may be some that want to stay there, but you can believe the majority want to leave.

[jspaeth]

Oh please, I lived in the ghetto in the early 90s when the crack dealing and crime was at all time high in Miami. Its not fun being woken up at 3am having to duck on the floor because they where shooting outside. GTFO of here with that argument.

Some ≠ all. There may be some that want to stay there, but you can believe the majority want to leave.


I agree some does not equal all. But why is it that so many European immigrants worked their asses off through discrimination and many of those families are successful today, yet there are so many people today, especially in inner-city areas, who generation after generation cannot seem to do the same?

Why is today's class of "working poor" so much shittier at pulling themselves up and succeeding than their early 1900s counterparts?

.....and despite the fact that poor people today have a 1000x advantage over poor people/immigrants in the early 1900s.



I'll answer for you.

It's called work ethic. Family. Knowing right versus wrong. Saving rather than wasting money on frivelous things.

[s13dan]

Wealth inequality is a serious issue in america. It also is a whole other topic, but something to look into for all of you that think simply owning a new car and a ranch style house is "making it". Knowing wealthy people is a big factor in how finacially sucessful you are in life and in america. Unfortunate but true.

Top 1% owns 50% of the wealth in america. Top 10% has close to 75% of the wealth.

[jspaeth]

Wealth inequality is a serious issue in america. It also is a whole other topic, but something to look into for all of you that think simply owning a new car and a ranch style house is "making it". Knowing wealthy people is a big factor in how finacially sucessful you are in life and in america. Unfortunate but true.

Top 1% owns 50% of the wealth in america. Top 10% has close to 75% of the wealth.


Another good stat:

90% of millionaires have parents that were NOT millionaires.

People think that being poor means always poor and being rich means always rich.


WRONG.

Poor people have a better chance here than ANYWHERE of working their asses off, saving, succeeding, and moving up (maybe not in just 1 generation, but that requires being unselfish enough to care about your kids more than yourself).

MOST rich people are rich because they are REALLY good at something that other people consider to be a valuable skill.

[Ghost240]

How about I suggest something really crazy for a second.......

READ THE FUCKING BILL THEN DECIDE!!!! (http://waysandmeans.house.gov/media/pdf/111/AAHCA09001xml.pdf)

(http://waysandmeans.house.gov/media/pdf/111/AAHCA09001xml.pdf)Just saying.....do your homework before you pop off.

[ryguy]

Who THE FUCK wants to live in the ghetto? You just stated why the hell you wouldn't want to.

He's right, there are quite a few people who live in the ghetto and don't care to pull themselves out. I work in the city with a girl whose whole family does not work and takes a check from the government and lives in the projects. She makes as much working for a paycheck as each individual member of her family makes sitting on their asses doing nothing, and she says everybody around her has pretty much the same story. Why work when you can make just as much money as working part time PLUS a home PLUS benefits sitting on your ass?

Not all government housing is "ghetto" either. The people who live across the street from us are Section 8, and my neighborhood is a nice, average middle class neighborhood.

How about I suggest something really crazy for a second.......

READ THE FUCKING BILL THEN DECIDE!!!! (http://waysandmeans.house.gov/media/pdf/111/AAHCA09001xml.pdf)

(http://waysandmeans.house.gov/media/pdf/111/AAHCA09001xml.pdf)Just saying.....do your homework before you pop off.

Why? The members of Congress havent. I've read enough of it to know I hate it, and regardless, the federal government constitutionally has no authority to enact this measure.

[jspaeth]

He's right, there are quite a few people who live in the ghetto and don't care to pull themselves out. I work in the city with a girl whose whole family does not work and takes a check from the government and lives in the projects. She makes as much working for a paycheck as each individual member of her family makes sitting on their asses doing nothing, and she says everybody around her has pretty much the same story. Why work when you can make just as much money as working part time PLUS a home PLUS benefits sitting on your ass?

Not all government housing is "ghetto" either. The people who live across the street from us are Section 8, and my neighborhood is a nice, average middle class neighborhood.

Another first-hand anecdotal story discribing what is wrong our country.

How can you people defend low life scum?

[rc1honda]

I work in health care. I know there are strong feelings on both sides. I feel like i kinda have a inside track to all of this.

First, i work in 1 of the most prestigious hospitals in the country. A academic center in Chicago. Even though we are a private not-for-profit organization we still do more medicare, Medicaid, and free heath care then any other university hospital in Chicago.

I want to tell you guys that people are sick and need help. And if you're defending private heath insurance you're insane. These huge billion dollar organizations have been raping the American people for far to long. Pre-existing conditions is a cop out and a way for insurance companies to drop their patients. Also don't think this bill is going to eat into their profits at all. I am very glad this is going to regulate private insurance. Remember this bill is really only applying to people with no health care at all.

One thing that may happen to me is my salary which is substantial,(for good reason) will most likely decrease. I am very good at what I do and do a very technical and complicated job. I deserve every cent of my salary. At the same time physicians salaries will also decease. This creates a dangerous environment where competent and passionate people will leave their fields for financial security elsewhere. But hey will have a chance to supplement their salary by using prevention techniques more then clinical care. I on the other hand may have to go back to school and get my CDL and become a crane operator or something.

To get to the point. A national health care system is a great idea if it is founded on the principal of competition. The government is going to be vying for your choice to use them as your health care provider. And as long as the taxation of the American people is held to a minimum then it should be transparent and seamless to the masses.

Truth being it's not the system abusers who are going to profit from this bill. It's the middle class unemployed guy who is 55 to young for medicare, who has a heart attack and loses his house from not being able to pay the bill from his coronary artery bypass surgery and subsequent ICU stay . This is a sad and harsh reality that people in the country face everyday.

If we are not taxed to death (which shouldn't happen) and I don't have to pay for a abortion, or some Heroin addicts methadone treatment. Which has amendments to make sure these types of scenarios are not covered. Then i can see nothing but good coming from this bill.

/rant

[ryguy]

If we are not taxed to death (which shouldn't happen) and I don't have to pay for a abortion, or some Heroin addicts methadone treatment. Which has amendments to make sure these types of scenarios are not covered. Then i can see nothing but good coming from this bill.

All I can say is good luck with your hopes and dreams. This bill is going to open the tax flood gates like they have never been opened before. Between the combination of this bill being signed into law and the expiration of the Bush tax cuts, there will instantly be a nearly 70% increase in capital gains taxes in most states to cover this new law. Thats just one of a multitude of new taxes.

Also, good luck with that anti-abortion executive mandate being worth a damn.

[Gnnr]

Top 1% owns 50% of the wealth in america. Top 10% has close to 75% of the wealth.

Another good stat:

90% of millionaires have parents that were NOT millionaires.

People think that being poor means always poor and being rich means always rich.

In other news 72% of statistics are made up on the spot (including this one). I'm not saying I don't believe you, just provide links...

I agree some does not equal all. But why is it that so many European immigrants worked their asses off through discrimination and many of those families are successful today, yet there are so many people today, especially in inner-city areas, who generation after generation cannot seem to do the same?

Why is today's class of "working poor" so much shittier at pulling themselves up and succeeding than their early 1900s counterparts?

.....and despite the fact that poor people today have a 1000x advantage over poor people/immigrants in the early 1900s.



I'll answer for you.

It's called work ethic. Family. Knowing right versus wrong. Saving rather than wasting money on frivelous things.

You know what I think it is, its the consumer society that was bread in the 1940s after WWII. TV, Internet, Cellphone, Credit Cards, and tons of other distractions to keep you from actually working. Before there was nothing else to do but work. Work ethic in this country is not what it used to be in ALL classes because of this.

He's right, there are quite a few people who live in the ghetto and don't care to pull themselves out. I work in the city with a girl whose whole family does not work and takes a check from the government and lives in the projects. She makes as much working for a paycheck as each individual member of her family makes sitting on their asses doing nothing, and she says everybody around her has pretty much the same story. Why work when you can make just as much money as working part time PLUS a home PLUS benefits sitting on your ass?

Not all government housing is "ghetto" either. The people who live across the street from us are Section 8, and my neighborhood is a nice, average middle class neighborhood.


You make a good point. There are moochers, I don't deny that. But isn't the problem then that the system does not weed these people out? We seem to agree that some welfare is needed for those that truly need it, so the real problem as I see it is that there needs to be welfare reform so that we don't have leeches in the system.

[rc1honda]

All I can say is good luck with your hopes and dreams. This bill is going to open the tax flood gates like they have never been opened before. Between the combination of this bill being signed into law and the expiration of the Bush tax cuts, there will instantly be a nearly 70% increase in capital gains taxes in most states to cover this new law. Thats just one of a multitude of new taxes.

Also, good luck with that anti-abortion executive mandate being worth a damn.

I can't say anything about tax hikes. Truth we won't know until they are enacted into law. But as far as the abortion goes it's not hopes and dreams. The bill specifcally states that under no circumstances are tax payer dollars going to go to pay for abortion. That's in the bill...

Try not to conjecture to much. All it will do is cause confusion. Abortion was one of the things of the bill that both parties agreed on. And that was our taxes will not be going to abortion.

And again you guys are looking at this as some kind of huge new welfare system. That only people in slums and ghettos will be able to use. The government is now in the insurance business. So you can still have your private insurance or you can choose the Uncle Sam plan. But like I said if this is done correctly and through a competitive standpoint, the taxes should be kept to a minimum.

And BTW ryguy I can't wait to see Peavy on the mound this year. With Pierre leading off. Sox 2010 baby.

[BustedS13]

This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the US department of energy. I then took a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal water utility. After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC regulated channels to see what the national weather service of the national oceanographic and atmospheric administration determined the weather was going to be like using satellites designed, built, and launched by the national aeronautics and space administration. I watched this while eating my breakfast of US department of agriculure inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the food and drug administration.

At the apppropriate time as regulated by US congress and kept accurate by the national institute of standards and technology at the US naval observatory, I get into my national highway traffic safety administration approved automobile and set out to work on the roads built by the local, state, and federal departments of transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the enviromental protection agency, using legal tender issued by the federal reserve bank. On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the US postal service and drop the kids off at public school.

After work, I drive my NHTSA car back home on the DOT roads, to a house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and fire marshall's inspection, and which has not been plundered of all its valuables thanks to the local police department.

I then log on to the internet which was developed by the advanced research projects administration and post on freerepublic.com and fox news forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can't do anything right.

http://i.imgur.com/bAB5l.png

[KA24DESOneThree]

You just posted the silliest thing you've ever posted, and it's not even noon yet.

Are you trying to illustrate the hypocrisy of those of us who believe the government should get the hell out of our lives by showing us exactly how far their tentacles reach?

Aren't you making our point while belittling it, all the while distracting from the purpose of the thread?

Health care isn't something we're guaranteed. It is something created by business, as business. It is a service rendered. It costs money to administer, and the schooling is some of the most expensive in the market.

Government is NOT a business entity; it has no place in being competitive with private business.

Government has no place regulating private business; we the consumers are burdened with that because we have the choice, in a competitive market free from governmental coercion, to say no to the dirty water, to the unreliable power, to the potholed roads, to the unsafe cars. We have the power in a competitive market, but in this market, in this country, we do not have power.

We are the subjugated masses, with our decisions made by those in ivory towers who have no idea what they are actually doing. It sounds good in theory but in application it's a mess; a mess which has reduced our productive capacity and which has kept us mired in a bureaucratic morass.

Point no fingers at me while you burn this country down, just get the hell out of my way.

[Ghost240]

Alright since many of the people here are to stupid to actually go through the bill with adobe acrobat reader and do keyword searches on their misinformation that they keep spewing.

1. The cost of this bill is around 10 Billion dollars in the next decade....so that means somewhere around 83,333,333.33 a year. Now the WAR cost us 136 billion in 2009 alone which works out to 11.33 billion a month. Soooooooo 83,333,333.33 is really NOTHING compared to the other expenditures.

2. You realize that hospitals CAN NOT turn people away that need care right? It is their oath and law. So who do you think pays for all those people who can't afford healthcare anyway? Hmmmmmm....????

3. WELFARE IS NOT PRIMARILY THE FAULT OF PEOPLE IN THE GHETTO. RURAL AMERCIA IS THE VAST MAJORITY OF IT. SO STOP BLAMING THE GHETTOS.

Sorry i had to write it so big but stupid people don't read shit unless its in front of their face.

and KA24DESOneThree what you say would be great and all in an ideal society where people educate themselves via the issues, discuss them intelligently with cited points and then came to a conclusion. But the average American is a fucking idiot. Sorry but it's true. People rather have shiny shit then educate themselves and this is beyond schooling. This is personal education.

And you can't say we do not have the power. Every person in this country has power. Individually it may not be as strong but as a collective it can create whole social changes at a rapid rate. Hence why the last 100 years has been so progress.

It's sad that you want to sit here, complain and moan and not do anything. Then at the same time say don't blame me? If you are a citizen of this nation you have a responsibility, whether you are for something or against it, make it known. Put forth an effort to have things changed or reasoned out. This bullshit complacency is the reason we are in the position we are in today.

So many people were happy with how things were going when things were on the up and up. In turn people got complacent and too trusting. Now they want to point the finger, and they should point them and them fucking selves. Act like a bunch of damn kids crying over spilled milk. You don't like it, find a way to fix it or STFU.

/rant

And KA its not a personal attack.

[Antihero983]

This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the US department of energy. I then took a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal water utility. After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC regulated channels to see what the national weather service of the national oceanographic and atmospheric administration determined the weather was going to be like using satellites designed, built, and launched by the national aeronautics and space administration. I watched this while eating my breakfast of US department of agriculure inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the food and drug administration.

At the apppropriate time as regulated by US congress and kept accurate by the national institute of standards and technology at the US naval observatory, I get into my national highway traffic safety administration approved automobile and set out to work on the roads built by the local, state, and federal departments of transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the enviromental protection agency, using legal tender issued by the federal reserve bank. On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the US postal service and drop the kids off at public school.

After work, I drive my NHTSA car back home on the DOT roads, to a house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and fire marshall's inspection, and which has not been plundered of all its valuables thanks to the local police department.

I then log on to the internet which was developed by the advanced research projects administration and post on freerepublic.com and fox news forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can't do anything right.


I love you.

[Oilcover]

1. The cost of this bill is around 10 Billion dollars in the next decade....so that means somewhere around 83,333,333.33 a year. Now the WAR cost us 136 billion in 2009 alone which works out to 11.33 billion a month. Soooooooo 83,333,333.33 is really NOTHING compared to the other expenditures.


uhmm...The cost of this bill is 940 billion over the next 10 years.

misinformation that I spewing.

[BustedS13]

You just posted the silliest thing you've ever posted, and it's not even noon yet.

when you posted this, i had already eaten lunch 90 minutes prior.
this is the only response you will receive.

I love you.

let's hold hands at recess.

[kingkilburn]

This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the US department of energy. I then took a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal water utility. After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC regulated channels to see what the national weather service of the national oceanographic and atmospheric administration determined the weather was going to be like using satellites designed, built, and launched by the national aeronautics and space administration. I watched this while eating my breakfast of US department of agriculure inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the food and drug administration.

At the apppropriate time as regulated by US congress and kept accurate by the national institute of standards and technology at the US naval observatory, I get into my national highway traffic safety administration approved automobile and set out to work on the roads built by the local, state, and federal departments of transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the enviromental protection agency, using legal tender issued by the federal reserve bank. On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the US postal service and drop the kids off at public school.

After work, I drive my NHTSA car back home on the DOT roads, to a house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and fire marshall's inspection, and which has not been plundered of all its valuables thanks to the local police department.

I then log on to the internet which was developed by the advanced research projects administration and post on freerepublic.com and fox news forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can't do anything right.



+10000000000000000 posi rep

[kingkilburn]

http://ulen.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/american-socialism.jpg

[Ghost240]

uhmm...The cost of this bill is 940 billion over the next 10 years.

that was a mistype on my end. But still 1360 billion over 10yrs versus 940Billion. Still a huge difference,

[KA24DESOneThree]

How much are taxes increased by this bill?

[secondtonone317]

great, time to stop busting my ass to save for the future......with dickheads like these assholes running the country I can coast my ass to retirment. Not to mention thee US dollar is gonna be worth shit by that time. Can't even buy gold cause all the rich folks knows its gonna happen and they rushed the gold and thanks to that its at an all time high.

Case and point, my section 8 government assisted neighbour has a wife and about 4 kids sits on his ass all day, collects public assistance, and just got a brand new flatscreen.....WTF, I work and still can't justify buying a $1500 TV while I have to pay for this worthless piece of shit to sit on his ass all day.

[Walperstyle]

Don't feel like googling, but I'm guessing this gives free healthcare to people like in Europe and Canada?

If it is, I knew it was coming. I told everybody that Obama was socialist before he got elected.


Canada does not have Free Healthcare. Its only slightly better. I paid $30,000 in taxes last year.

[KA24DESOneThree]

http://ulen.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/american-socialism.jpg

Making that which should be private public is socialism.

Have we been advancing toward a more perfect [sic] union or away from it?

Oh, and I know I have power. I've advocated change before it was a campaign slogan. I've protested, I've voted, I've participated in activism.

The real question, however, is who gets blamed for this? Are all of the "yes" votes equally culpable in the destruction of rights and the theft of billions, and thus abrogate any pact between men to act civilly? A man who comes to my home or business, stealing my money ($400 billion over the next ten years), and mince no words about it, it is stealing, to provide a service to those who cannot afford it is a thief. The man who sent him is a thief.

[kingkilburn]

I wasn't implying that we aren't moving towards more socialism. We have been fairly socialist from the beginning. We have not been purely socialist and I don't expect us to ever be(and would not want to be) but the right kind of programs at the right times have done a lot and will continue to do a lot for this country. I would like to see a renewed progressive movement. More social programs with competent oversight to stop the leeches along with more grants for the betterment of America and it's people.


At the same time they do not need to mandate that any one have insurance and fine those that refuse. Why on earth should you pay taxes for insurance you may not need then be fined on top of that for then not having any.

[ryguy]

A.) There are poor people in rural America that I dislike feeding government dollars to just as much as ghetto poor people, so stop shouting about that, it's irrelevant.

B.) Busted, all the things you posted up are necessary monopolies, and should be run by the Federal Government. Yes, they are socialist, but there is no other practical way to run most of those things. Healthcare is not one of those things.

[kingkilburn]

Why should healthcare be a for-profit industry?

[drftmark]

nice copy and paste Busteds13...

I am going to love paying MORE money for worthless shits who are supposed to die off so they can't procreate 5 + more little fucks that I/we all end up paying for.

I do care about my fellow man, but only the ones who strive for success and want to work for themselves. The meaning of the saying "time is money" is changing very fast to "idle time is money."

[kingkilburn]

It sounds a lot like people in here need to start writing/calling their representatives about welfare reform instead of complaining about this bill.

I personally work very hard in school, more hours than when I worked a full time job. I make no money and have no health insurance because of my age. Thanks to this bill I will have health coverage for 3 more years which will be enough for me to get out of college and make enough to afford my own.

The best part of this bill though is that it has opened the flood gates for serious healthcare reform.

[codyace]

B.) Busted, all the things you posted up are necessary monopolies, and should be run by the Federal Government. Yes, they are socialist, but there is no other practical way to run most of those things. Healthcare is not one of those things.

So you're saying that there is no other way to have a private company manage a road project? Or the power plants? Or the Water? You're 100% right - as if it was, they woudl spiral out of control, and companies would 'cut throats' to maximize their profits and line their pockets...thus hurting everyone who needs those services


...oh wait, isn't that what the health care industry is doing now, and subsequently driving the costs of health care to astronomical levels?



Just think about it for a minute -- sure the government may pass the 'burden' onto everyone, but in the same aspect, imagine how much money employers could save by not paying into insurance, and instead just giving YOU more base salary?

In the end, the cost to 90% of america is the same...make more salary, spend more taxes, or spend less taxes to make less money....

[jspaeth]

Case and point, my section 8 government assisted neighbour has a wife and about 4 kids sits on his ass all day, collects public assistance, and just got a brand new flatscreen.....WTF, I work and still can't justify buying a $1500 TV while I have to pay for this worthless piece of shit to sit on his ass all day.


There you go, a THIRD independent anecdotal story of something similar.

That is what we are fucking tired of.

Tired of giving money to people that "need help" but are driving around in new cars living in nice houses and buying video games, computers, flatscreens etc.

I am so sick of supporting worthless fucks.

There are people that really need the help, but the worthless lazy fucks ruin it for everyone.

[kingkilburn]

I say throw the leeches in work camps and work them till they pay it all back. At the least they will have good job skills afterwords.

[ryguy]

So you're saying that there is no other way to have a private company manage a road project? Or the power plants? Or the Water? You're 100% right - as if it was, they woudl spiral out of control, and companies would 'cut throats' to maximize their profits and line their pockets...thus hurting everyone who needs those services.

ACTUALLY, my power and water are BOTH owned and run by a private company, NIPSCO, which is not in any way government run.

Also, a lot of the things Busted posted are run by the states, like the state DOT. Most road construction is run by the State DOT. The Constitution gives individual states the power to do things like this. In fact, if this bill passed each individual state (similar to what Massachussetts has) I would have less of a problem with it.

Also, the Constitution mandates that we have a standing military.

It sounds a lot like people in here need to start writing/calling their representatives about welfare reform instead of complaining about this bill.

I make no money and have no health insurance because of my age.

I actually wrote my representative and senator about this bill long ago. They don't give a fuck (especially my representative.) I vote. I will be voting.

I'm surprised you cant get on your parents policy if you are a full time student.

[kingkilburn]

Past 18 I had to be full time to qualify. After that you are cut off at 23.

Seeing as I took a break from college, really bad idea I might add, I didn't finish before my coverage ran out.

This is through Tricare too so it's already funded by the Feds. Lets see how long it takes them to start coverage again.


I think if the Federal government taxed us less or gave the states back more most states would already have state run healthcare.

While it might not be constitutional for the Federal government to run a healthcare system it is acceptable to me. When they wrote limits into the constitution they were trying to limit the government's power to control people not what it could do for them. But again the states should be doing it.

[lewisfk]

i like the bill, but it's a work in progress! nothing is perfect, and yes they said the same thing about medicare and social security! so please people give it time and lets see were it goes from here! I WISH EVERYONE COMPLAINED AND PROTESTED WHEN BUSH INVADE IRAQ! we spend more than 30 billion a month on a war that shouldn't have been. But u cant spend less than a third of that for healthcare? I guess we care more about war than the health of others!

[lewisfk]

if it's anything like military health care, you won't be allowed to file a law suit for malpractice.

Your statement is false, military doctors themselves can be sued as well as the hospital or clinic were the malpractice took place! I worked in 2 navel hospital and both of them had several lawsuits pending at the time! I am a Navy Corpsman, if u dont know what that is look it up! Navel Hospitals like Balboa, Portsmouth, and Bethesda keep law suits due to the fact there training commands! The process is longer and there are more rules, but it can be done!

[drftmark]

a lot of people in this thread should read the book Animal Farm

[HalveBlue]

A lot of the people in this thread should get cancer, break their backs, or be afflicted by any number of terrible maladies.

Then they should come back to this thread tell us what they think about the current health care system and this new legislation.

[drftmark]

I would tell you that I got my treatment quickly and that I am glad I pay for my own health insurance...

Is that a problem?

Then with the new legislation, I would tell you how fucked up it was waiting a year to get any treatment, having to travel to receive treatment, and when I finally do get treatment, the procedure went wrong because all the good doctors left and the only ones left are to busy with millions of other people.

[kingkilburn]

What are you talking about? Did you even read the bill?


I was going to try and explain it but fuck that. Read the god damn bill before you complain about it.

[TheWolf]

Being in the health care system today. I see the problems of "free" government handouts. It erodes their own will to work to earn their own keep.

I had a lady bring her two kids in today. Driving her lexus suv. Well dressed. Living in a nice country club where it's atleast $600/month in association dues. Ran both her kids through on medicaid. Had no problem letting someone else pay for her kids care. If she's on medicaid she's on wic as well. It would be one thing if this was a rare occurrence, but it's not unfortunately. It becomes everyone trying to value their "needs" greater than everyone elses. Like a race in school to see who can cheat the most to get the highest grade. No one wins and all I can do is smile. I know this lady has little chance of going to work and earning her keep.

Once someone is given something for free, they see no value in working for it. It skews their outlook. Look at the statistics for how many people that go onto gov't assistance that come off of it. Initially. 75% of recipients go on it come off in under a year. In study after study of these recipients, the report from employers is "Still, employers frequently note absenteeism and poor attitudes toward work, problems that are strongly linked to turnover and weak job performance" If you would like the peer reviewed journal articles that show this I will provide. Within a year they are back on it. Welfare could be more addictive than crack or booze.

All these "repeal" plans and sueing the gov't over legalities is a farce. The horse is out of the barn people.

This world's shit doesn't run on magic. It runs on rules and those rules work because people enforce them. When politicians, and big businesses don't follow rules. They set an example for everyone to follow. If they don't enforce their own rules. You get a bit of anarchy. If wall st. didn't get bailed out, you wouldn't see people walking away from their houses like they are now. If the fed hadn't been continually bailing out banks, they would have folded. How about fannie and fredie mac? 162 billion and they're still just hemorrhaging cash. Maybe now if you want to buy a house.. you can apply for one from the gov't? The masses budget their checking accounts like politicians balance their budget. Someone stands on a high moral ground (bunning), he's pelted to move. Someone stands on high moral ground like stupack, and then folds after a pay off, it's "expected". It will be interesting if obama uses 20 pens to sign the executive order as promised or if that takes "some time to work out". Even the census tells us not to be counted but if we don't send it back in, we're not going to get our "fair share of money". That's why I put 18 native alaskan tribesmen lived at my house. (Secretly I'm hoping for a casino).

The absolute WORST thing this health care bill does is give 30 million poor ignorant people the belief they're getting "free healthcare". NO they're getting a subsidized check for some BS low budget crap health insurance. TOTALLY different. Wait till they realize that 70/30 globocare cheapo plan they signed up for means they have to pay 30% of that operation. Of that gunshot wound. Of that knife stabbing. Of that car accident while drunk/high. Of that lifeflight ride to the hospital. Surprise. You owe $40k because you bought cheap insurance. And if you don't pay us, we'll terminate your insurance and alert the IRS that you're "uninsured". They also got a current address/phone on you from the hospital. The easier to track you with. It also sets a price floor for policies. No policy will be cheaper than the subsidized rate. This is a recipe for disaster. These people have no idea what makes a good insurance policy or even a clue as to what they'd be accountable for. They couldn't tell you the difference between a HMO and a PPO. They don't know you can only goto certain network hospitals. Certain docs. Good luck finding one on the cheapie plans that currently accepting new patients. I tried to book a kid for an ortho surgeon last week, they were booking 3 months out. Told me to try the city 3 hours drive away to get in sooner. I can only imagine how many "victims" are going to be taken advantage of. The amount of the "It's not fair, This isn't free, It's not good quality care" comments. No shit.

Nothing is free. It has to come from someone elses labor. You, me, anyone on this forum. All work a certain percentage of the year for free to help pay for someone who doesn't want to work. They're like a leech. slowly sucking blood out of you. nothing more than a useless parasite. the only way to remove a leech is to cut it off. make it live on it's own or die trying.

[imotion s14]

Why should healthcare be a for-profit industry?

because profits is the only market mechanism for an economy to send signals to producers that they're doing shit right. When you run a company and it don't make profit you go out of business. The fact that we have who think health care is immune to the laws of economics because they care more makes me laugh at the sheer ignorance of these people.

And non-profit does not mean they don't make profit. :keke:

[DALAZ_68]

^ i think this guy might be on the verge of commiting suicide

sweet...one less person to drag america down by his logic

[kingkilburn]

because profits is the only market mechanism for an economy to send signals to producers that they're doing shit right. When you run a company and it don't make profit you go out of business. The fact that we have who think health care is immune to the laws of economics because they care more makes me laugh at the sheer ignorance of these people.

And non-profit does not mean they don't make profit. :keke:

Right now it's running as a cartel sanctioned by the government. That is bs.

I didn't mean as a non-profit organization. I meant make zero profit. There should be NO insurance market. The world seemed to get by just fine without it.

[ranger240]

How much are taxes increased by this bill?


Obama Pays More Than Buffett as U.S. Risks AAA Rating (Update3)
Share Business ExchangeTwitterFacebook| Email | Print | A A A

By Daniel Kruger and Bryan Keogh

March 22 (Bloomberg) -- The bond market is saying that it’s safer to lend to Warren Buffett than Barack Obama.

Two-year notes sold by the billionaire’s Berkshire Hathaway Inc. in February yield 3.5 basis points less than Treasuries of similar maturity, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. Procter & Gamble Co., Johnson & Johnson and Lowe’s Cos. debt also traded at lower yields in recent weeks, a situation former Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. chief fixed-income strategist Jack Malvey calls an “exceedingly rare” event in the history of the bond market.

The $2.59 trillion of Treasury Department sales since the start of 2009 have created a glut as the budget deficit swelled to a post-World War II-record 10 percent of the economy and raised concerns whether the U.S. deserves its AAA credit rating. The increased borrowing may also undermine the first-quarter rally in Treasuries as the economy improves.

“It’s a slap upside the head of the government,” said Mitchell Stapley, the chief fixed-income officer in Grand Rapids, Michigan, at Fifth Third Asset Management, which oversees $22 billion. “It could be the moment where hopefully you realize that risk is beginning to creep into your credit profile and the costs associated with that can be pretty scary.”

Moody’s Warning

While Treasuries backed by the full faith and credit of the government typically yield less than corporate debt, the relationship has flipped as Moody’s Investors Service predicts the U.S. will spend more on debt service as a percentage of revenue this year than any other top-rated country except the U.K. America will use about 7 percent of taxes for debt payments in 2010 and almost 11 percent in 2013, moving “substantially” closer to losing its AAA rating, Moody’s said last week.

source Obama Pays More Than Buffett as U.S. Risks AAA Rating (Update3) - Bloomberg.com (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=azz5FiyZHvMY)




think about that... over 10% of your taxes covering interest the government owes via its debt....

now sure is a great time to tack on more debt :cj:


zilvia, lets do the math....

pretend its 2013, those doomsday 2012 fools got it all wrong. say your taxed 12% for simplicities sake of 40,000 you made in a year. that means almost a month and a half of your year spent working is done to cover govt spending... now 10%of that 4800 bucks goes to covering interest... which amounts to you spending about half a week a year of labor simply to cover debt-interest.... for the govt

whats more striking is that every taxpaying American does this in varied proportions to service this govt debt.. how is that the best use of labor?


if anyone reads that bloomberg article they'll be shocked to compare the govt debt ratios between the u.s. and germany

how is this pertinent to healthcare? besides the irration of growing the govt and increasing taxes in a recession, we cannot afford more government expenditure

you know things are bad when suzie orman is advising people to save for retirement with roth IRAs bc taxes will have to increase in the future because of current govt debt-spending....

in-spite of every incumbents' best intention to dissuade you, physics and finance share adherence to laws... you cannot create something (printing $$) from nothing in physics nor can you within economics.. there will be opposing forces acting against it.. "print more money"(govt deficit spending) results are inflation and higher taxes... there's no getting around that and that is no way to operate the largest economy in the world.

[ranger240]

I meant make zero profit. There should be NO insurance market. The world seemed to get by just fine without it.

goodness people need to actually think about what that means

zero profit=no return on investment=no incentive to invest in said industry=no rational players in said industry=no industry=no health insurance

which is what that person advocates, ''the world seemed to get by just fine without it"? without health insurance... you're using historical context to argue against healthcare? are you arguing against any private funding for healthcare? read my last post

"hey guys, before cars were invented, we didnt have global warming and the world seemed to get by just fine without them." we shouldnt have cars...

no more posts from me in this feeding frenzy of lame ducks


there were some terrific points raised by both sides that certainly added good perspective to mine... this conversation is pointless though,

our shortsighted leaders have sent us down the river straight into some class 5s...theres no turning back we just have to put up with it

[upsdude]

-the whole 'repeal the bill' idea isn't going to go anywhere. even if the republicans got enough votes to do so, obama will veto it...and from there they don't stand a chance to get the 2/3 vote to override it.

-I hate this bill as a whole. can't stand how it was passed, it infuriates me the arrogance of congress and the president. but the kind of deal making that's been covered in the news is the same kind of political dealing that's been going on for decades-from both sides. Still, they're all liars, thieves, and whores.

-however you feel about the new bill...you have admire the sheer evil genius of it. all the good stuff takes effect quickly. Kids can't be denied coverage if they have a pre-existing condition. can't be kicked off the insurance if you get sick-if you have older kids they stay on till 26...etc.this is all stuff that people will openly welcome. one example: there was a woman who called a radio station happy about obamacare. why? her daughter has diabetes, and now she can continue to get care until a much later age. who's gonna be the first candidate to take their care away now that they've got it? it'll be a campaign killer.

-now that this timebomb of a bill has passed, there's no way to take it back. just like medicare, medicaide and social security. and just you wait, the legalization of millions of people "in the shadows" are coming next. sure the new healthcare bill says "no healthcare to illegal aliens". so what's the solution? legalize them! don't believe me? check out what lindsay graham and chuck schumer are hatching for that issue.

[kingkilburn]

We still need the health industry, all the doctors, researchers, suppliers,and inventors. All that gets by just fine with out the insurers.

Tell me why you need to bet some lawyer that you will get sick when he's betting you wont. Tell me also why that bet is necessary for the rest of the medical industry to operate.

The same can be said for car insurance. The flip side of that is that the cost of auto repairs has not gone up with the rise of the auto insurance industry.

[jspaeth]

i like the bill, but it's a work in progress! nothing is perfect, and yes they said the same thing about medicare and social security! so please people give it time and lets see were it goes from here! I WISH EVERYONE COMPLAINED AND PROTESTED WHEN BUSH INVADE IRAQ! we spend more than 30 billion a month on a war that shouldn't have been. But u cant spend less than a third of that for healthcare? I guess we care more about war than the health of others!

You sir are a fucking moron. Medicare and Social Security are failed! A program is NOT a success if you have to keep increasing taxes on people who are NOT using the programs to keep them running.

Again, that is called playing Robin Hood, except in this case, most of the "rich" people are hardworking people who have earned their money through hard work and wise investment.

A lot of the people in this thread should get cancer, break their backs, or be afflicted by any number of terrible maladies.

Then they should come back to this thread tell us what they think about the current health care system and this new legislation.

Fortunately for you, I DID have cancer 3 years ago. Fortunately for me, I have worked my ass off my whole life, and now am in a graduate PhD program at a school that provides me healthcare, that the school deems I deserve, based upon me being here.

And the care that I got was the BEST of the BEST. And it isn't luck. It is because I and my family worked hard to get where we are.

Being in the health care system today. I see the problems of "free" government handouts. It erodes their own will to work to earn their own keep.

I had a lady bring her two kids in today. Driving her lexus suv. Well dressed. Living in a nice country club where it's atleast $600/month in association dues. Ran both her kids through on medicaid. Had no problem letting someone else pay for her kids care. If she's on medicaid she's on wic as well. It would be one thing if this was a rare occurrence, but it's not unfortunately. It becomes everyone trying to value their "needs" greater than everyone elses. Like a race in school to see who can cheat the most to get the highest grade. No one wins and all I can do is smile. I know this lady has little chance of going to work and earning her keep.

Once someone is given something for free, they see no value in working for it.

Nothing is free. It has to come from someone elses labor. You, me, anyone on this forum. All work a certain percentage of the year for free to help pay for someone who doesn't want to work.

You sir, are very, very intelligent and TELL IT HOW IT IS. And also, now a 4th seperate anecdotal about some asshole fuckers getting federal aid and driving around in a Lexus SUV.

[KA24DESOneThree]

A lot of the people in this thread should get cancer, break their backs, or be afflicted by any number of terrible maladies.

Then they should come back to this thread tell us what they think about the current health care system and this new legislation.

Something I learned this weekend:

My dad has lymphoma and is currently covered by his insurance, provided for him by his (private) employer. His treatments occur once every 2 months; he has six per year. His cost is $5,000 each treatment. They pay $20,000 each treatment. His cost is $30,000; the total is $150,000/year. He's been on this for several years now.

He will be starting chemo soon, the $150k/year was some other treatment. He will have up to six doses. Average cost ranges greatly, but $100k+ is a possibility.

I don't need to get cancer, my dad has it for me, so anything healthcare-related does hit home.

However, the last two times I've been to the hospital, I paid for it by check, no insurance company involvement because it wasn't something you use insurance for.

The current health care system is broken. This bill is not going to fix it. This bill is not going to do anything but increase cost and abuse of the system, while putting a burden on peoples' backs that they should not have to shoulder. We should have never turned to our leaders to fix private companies, we should have turned to the companies, to the private healthcare industry as a whole, and forced them to reduce costs through the power of our spending. We should have turned to ourselves and said "stop abusing the system; it is there when you need it but it is not something you take lightly."

The free market could be a beautiful thing if allowed to exist. However, it will never exist so we will never know.

[jspaeth]

I believe that healthcare is NOT a right.

I don't think it is right for Insurance companies to increase premiums when you get sick or drop you.

However, it IS INSURANCE. Why would they charge someone they KNOW IS ALREADY SICK or IS GOING TO GET SICK LESS or the same?

Why should a healthy person have to pay the same for healthcare as someone who smokes a pack of cigarettes a day?

Furthermore, why should the smoker have is healthcare paid for by other non smokers?

[kingkilburn]

Why should some one who has been healthy their entire life get dropped because they got cancer? Why should that person then be denied coverage for a preexisting illness?

You just bet them you would get sick for 20 years. When it's finally time to cash in your chips the casino closes down on you.

[ryguy]

so what's the solution? legalize them! don't believe me? check out what lindsay graham and chuck schumer are hatching for that issue.

This sir, is the solution to the illegal immigrants getting healthcare question. I realized this as soon as the media started covering Obama's new shift to immigration.

Hell, half the Democrats careers are effectively over. Why would they not vote for amnesty?

Why should some one who has been healthy their entire life get dropped because they got cancer? Why should that person then be denied coverage for a preexisting illness?

Now this I agree is something that needed to be changed, the whole being dropped because you actually got sick, when you've been paying your premiums your whole life. However, people who did not have insurance when they got sick took a gamble and lost. They did not purchase insurance, and they have no right to medical care.

Think of it this way. I am driving around without collision insurance on my car. I ram into a telephone pole going 50 and total my car. Should I be able to go to the insurance company and decide after the fact that I want to buy collision insurance, that would apply retroactively, and make the auto insurance company buy me a new car? No, thats a farce. Same as the new law regarding pre-existing conditions.

[jspaeth]

Why should some one who has been healthy their entire life get dropped because they got cancer? Why should that person then be denied coverage for a preexisting illness?

You just bet them you would get sick for 20 years. When it's finally time to cash in your chips the casino closes down on you.

I think ANY rational person can agree on this.

But these are people that WERE responsible enough to purchase insurance in the first place and are getting screwed over.

That is not the same thing as "I can't afford healthcare" (but I just bought a reasonably nice car for $10,000, a flatscreen TV, a Blackberry, and an X-box to play NBA 2K10.)

[upsdude]

Hell, half the Democrats careers are effectively over. Why would they not vote for amnesty?


and i'm sure most of them realize that. but it's like they've won the superbowl..nothing else matters. they can say "i was part of history" blah blah blah by backing/voting for healthcare reform. so even if they do lose their seat, they feel that it was worth it.

[imotion s14]

Right now it's running as a cartel sanctioned by the government. That is bs.

46 years ago there wasn't a big health insurance industry. They were created by government mandates. So we turned over our health care industry to these insurance companies and now you don't like it. The problem you speak of was created by government in the first place.

I didn't mean as a non-profit organization. I meant make zero profit. There should be NO insurance market. The world seemed to get by just fine without it.

Would you work for free? then why would you want anyone else to work for free because that's what you're very ignorant view of the underlying economics is proposing.

When you go to a doctor, he makes a profit from charging you for a services. Otherwise why would anyone want to work? Why would anyone want to do anything?

[kingkilburn]

The government isn't infallible(obviously), hell they may have created it just for some senator's buddy to make some cash. I don't care how the industry was created it needs to go.



When did I say free? I said no profit. There is a difference.

I think ANY rational person can agree on this.

But these are people that WERE responsible enough to purchase insurance in the first place and are getting screwed over.

That is not the same thing as "I can't afford healthcare" (but I just bought a reasonably nice car for $10,000, a flatscreen TV, a Blackberry, and an X-box to play NBA 2K10.)

There was a time when the average American could afford decent healthcare with out needing insurance. This wasn't because they made more. It was because the cost of the medical care was so much less.

[ranger240]

When did I say free? I said no profit. There is a difference.


definition of profit

The positive gain from an investment or business operation after subtracting for all expenses. opposite of loss.

profit Definition (http://www.investorwords.com/3880/profit.html)


please do explain your stance a bit more, even if not to anyone but yourself

[kingkilburn]

EXACTLY

There should be no positive gain.

Free implies that I pay nothing and get something in return. That is not what I
'm saying.

[HalveBlue]

blah, blah, blah...

Seems like you (and your family) have done rather well for themselves. Good on you.

I have no problem with people enjoying success or the fruits of their labor.

But remember, no man is an island.

And no matter how smart, industrious, or clever you are, some things are out of your control.

I will reiterate that I am glad this bill got passed. It may not be perfect, but at least it's better (in my opinion) than the clusterfuck of a system we have in the US right now.

Anyway, I'm done with this thread. This topic is too complex to cover in a few posts here and there on an automotive forum.

Live long and prosper jspaeth!*

:kiss:

*and the same to your fellow minded compatriots.

[jspaeth]

Seems like you (and your family) have done rather well for themselves. Good on you.

I have no problem with people enjoying success or the fruits of their labor.

But remember, no man is an island.

And no matter how smart, industrious, or clever you are, some things are out of your control.

I will reiterate that I am glad this bill got passed. It may not be perfect, but at least it's better (in my opinion) than the clusterfuck of a system we have in the US right now.

Anyway, I'm done with this thread. This topic is too complex to cover in a few posts here and there on an automotive forum.

Live long and prosper jspaeth!*

:kiss:

*and the same to your fellow minded compatriots.

My key qualm is that although MANY people are working as HARD as they can and still can't by,

There are also MANY people that are completely using the system. These people on welfare with nice cars and flatscreens just piss me off, and I feel like there are probably a lot more of them then any of us realize.


I believe the first group DOES deserve help, but the second group of lowlifes should go to hell.

[Agamemnon]

The same can be said for car insurance.
Thats a bullshit compairison. Driving is a privilege, not a right. You are mandated(by the state, not the federal gov't) to purchase auto insurance when you choose to drive. This bill forces you to purchase insurance(unconstitutional) on the sole basis that you have a pulse.

Lets forget about insurance. Lets forget about who this helps, and blah blah blah.
I want to know from the people that support this bill, how you think the government has right to violate your constitional rights?
Are you guys saying that the ends justify the means? Whats good for the goose is good for the gander? That we should force citizens to purchase things they may not want for the good of society?

What happened to the rights of the individual?

[drftmark]

What happened to the rights of the individual?

Unfortunately they are gone because some fucks in Washington don't care about the individuals, just the lazy fucks that will come out to vote if they give them free shit.

The saying “health care is a right, not a privilege” is straight up retarded. Let’s see, how about food, clothes, housing, transportation, access to phones, exercise facilities, internet, TV, etc? Where does it end?

In the old days, churches and charities did a pretty damn good job about seeing that fellow citizens were taken care of. But now the government will by force take from one group and give to another, and thereby give them no reason what-so-ever to try to better and improve themselves.

Welcome to the world of the liberals; it’s sounds compassionate , but it is a social disaster. Why after 60 years of special protection and laws for minorities (i.e. blacks[I am not racist that is just an example]) are their neighborhoods so dysfunctional? Rampant unemployment, broken homes, unknown fathers, reward unwed moms more federal money for more kids (now that’s a winner) , etc.; a real success story.

It’s comforting to know that the IRS will be enforcing health care laws; and that Medicare, Medicaid, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, Social Security, and the Post Office (all run by federal government in case you didn’t notice the trend) are all bankrupt.

[jspaeth]

Unfortunately they are gone because some fucks in Washington don't care about the individuals, just the lazy fucks that will come out to vote if they give them free shit.

The saying “health care is a right, not a privilege” is straight up retarded. Let’s see, how about food, clothes, housing, transportation, access to phones, exercise facilities, internet, TV, etc? Where does it end?

In the old days, churches and charities did a pretty damn good job about seeing that fellow citizens were taken care of. But now the government will by force take from one group and give to another, and thereby give them no reason what-so-ever to try to better and improve themselves.

Welcome to the world of the liberals; it’s sounds compassionate , but it is a social disaster. Why after 60 years of special protection and laws for minorities (i.e. blacks[I am not racist that is just an example]) are their neighborhoods so dysfunctional? Rampant unemployment, broken homes, unknown fathers, reward unwed moms more federal money for more kids (now that’s a winner) , etc.; a real success story.

It’s comforting to know that the IRS will be enforcing health care laws; and that Medicare, Medicaid, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, Social Security, and the Post Office (all run by federal government in case you didn’t notice the trend) are all bankrupt.


I tried, but I can't find anything that is untrue about anything that you wrote.

I enjoy when people speak the truth rather than trying to be politically correct.

[beeracing s14]

im glad it passed too. nobody wants a 10k dollar bill statement in their mailbox once they get sick, do you? damn i could buy another car with that. lol

[jspaeth]

im glad it passed too. nobody wants a 10k dollar bill statement in their mailbox once they get sick, do you? damn i could buy another car with that. lol


It's not about that, it's about where the money comes from. Of course unfair and illegal practices by the insurance companies need to be eliminated.


With regard to what you just wrote ^, I'm glad you have no problem buying another car with the $10,000 you saved because SOMEONE ELSE paid for your healthcare, asshat.

A doctor or lawyer or successful small business owner might as well just hand you a fucking check for $10-20K every year.

Your attitude is the reason our country is turning to shit. You want to depend on a program or something, but don't give a fuck or care to think that it is being paid for by someone else other than you.

[prodigyJJ]

I hate this bill. I disagree with the way that it was passed. I disagree with the idea of the federal government. The only real reason for national government should be for CIVIL DEFENSE, but Washington keeps stepping over its boundaries.

I for one would rather pay more of a premium for the privilage to use MY doctor on MY insurance than let the government handle anything else in my life. More government is not going to solve our problem.

I do feel that the insurance industry should be regulated. I disagree that this particular industry should be regulated by the federal government. I feel even more strongly that the government should be regulated. How can the government manage our health when it can't even manage itself?

To the person that said Bush started the war in Iraq, I'm pretty sure that Colin Powell made the "moving speech", and provided all of the supposed "evidence" needed to get permission to go to war with Iraq. Don't put it all on Bush. Place blame where blame should. As I recall Obama hasn't made many changes about the military occupations besides basically moving soldiers from Iraq to Afghanistan.

[kingkilburn]

Thats a bullshit compairison. Driving is a privilege, not a right. You are mandated(by the state, not the federal gov't) to purchase auto insurance when you choose to drive. This bill forces you to purchase insurance(unconstitutional) on the sole basis that you have a pulse

The fact is you don't NEED insurance. If you are responsible and can prove it to DMV you don't need insurance.

I hope they do the same for this bill.

I hate this bill. I disagree with the way that it was passed. I disagree with the idea of the federal government. The only real reason for national government should be for CIVIL DEFENSE, but Washington keeps stepping over its boundaries.

I for one would rather pay more of a premium for the privilage to use MY doctor on MY insurance than let the government handle anything else in my life. More government is not going to solve our problem.

I do feel that the insurance industry should be regulated. I disagree that this particular industry should be regulated by the federal government. I feel even more strongly that the government should be regulated. How can the government manage our health when it can't even manage itself?

To the person that said Bush started the war in Iraq, I'm pretty sure that Colin Powell made the "moving speech", and provided all of the supposed "evidence" needed to get permission to go to war with Iraq. Don't put it all on Bush. Place blame where blame should. As I recall Obama hasn't made many changes about the military occupations besides basically moving soldiers from Iraq to Afghanistan.

I don't even want to get into this one. You are just wrong about so many things here.

The only thing I will say is this. How do you thing the Republicans passed so many things during Bush's term? No body belly ached when they did it and if it was so bad they could have used their majority vote to get rid of it.

[fckillerbee]

The fact is you don't NEED insurance. If you are responsible and can prove it to DMV you don't need insurance.

I hope they do the same for this bill.



I don't even want to get into this one. You are just wrong about so many things here.

The only thing I will say is this. How do you thing the Republicans passed so many things during Bush's term? No body belly ached when they did it and if it was so bad they could have used their majority vote to get rid of it.

what??? where did you get this info from?

[kingkilburn]

From California DMV. If you can show you have the money you don't need insurance. DMV gives you a print out that acts as your proof of insurance. I don't remember the amount off the top of my head.

Here is the link:
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/brochures/fast_facts/ffvr18.htm#accevid

It looks like the amount is $35,000. It sounds like a lot but it is the combined total of the minimums that auto insurance is required to pay out.

[prodigyJJ]

I respect your opinion kingkilburn. I don't feel like I'm wrong, but I do feel that I may not have clearly explained what I was trying to say in my post. Here goes:

1) I'm not supporting the Bush administration any more than I support Obama's administration. The only reason that I said what I said about Bush is because someone made an earlier post placing all of the blame of our military being in Iraq on Bush. I was simply stating that had it not been for Colin Powell's convincing presentation of false evidence, congress would not have made such a decision. I'm not taking up for the Bush administration at all. They made some f'd up decisions also especially in terms of handling illegal immigrants. And Bush didn't help our deficit either. That whole administration sucked.

2) This whole deregulation thing started with the Clinton administration, but as you pointed out, no one was crying or belly aching then either (because our country was making a butt load of money). The bubble just happend to burst during the Bush administration. It isn't like wall street and washington both didn't see it coming.

3) I said that government should be regulated , reigned in by US (the people), and made to be more transparent before the government can handle managing any more of OUR money let alone our health. That is what I was meaning to say anyway. In literal terms: the fed has a f'd up track record, they're spending WAY too much money without showing accountability in my opinion. Honestly, if they can't manage the money that we give them, I damn sure don't want them making any decisions on how my health care is handled. Seriously, look at all of the ear marks that are being injected into some bills these day. Lobbyism is helping waste a lot of money too.

I got off on a tangent but, that is my opinion. I'm not saying that I am against health care reform completely, but I don't think that right now is the best time to do it, and I don't really want the government to handle as closely as they'd like it to be handled.

[fckillerbee]

From California DMV. If you can show you have the money you don't need insurance. DMV gives you a print out that acts as your proof of insurance. I don't remember the amount off the top of my head.

Here is the link:
Insurance Requirements for Vehicle Registration (http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/brochures/fast_facts/ffvr18.htm#accevid)

It looks like the amount is $35,000. It sounds like a lot but it is the combined total of the minimums that auto insurance is required to pay out.

that is rad....i have never heard of this.

[wh0aitznic0]

This is a big fucking deal.

[lewisfk]

[QUOTE=jspaeth;3356705]You sir are a fucking moron. Medicare and Social Security are failed! A program is NOT a success if you have to keep increasing taxes on people who are NOT using the programs to keep them running.

Wow sir, u must be a fucking idiot to ignore the banter of the Republican Party! The first thing they said about the health care bill is that it would cut all the benefit like medicare and Soc. Sec! Senior citizens were linking up by the bus load to complain about this fact! It was the man talking point for half a fucking year! So how can u say there a failed program, yes it has flaws but what doesn't. Im sure NJ IS FUCKING FLAWLESS!:rl:

[ranger240]

EXACTLY

There should be no positive gain.

Free implies that I pay nothing and get something in return. That is not what I
'm saying.

yeah bud.. you have to elaborate on whatever you mean... so the recipient of healthcare pays something (what should that cover in your opinion?) and the provider gains nothing over what? a govt regulated paycheck?

thats a craptastic idea

i dont think you understand what profits are


ex:

a dr in private practice... they shouldnt operate beyond their break even point? i.e. the point in which all their expenses are covered? is that what you mean....

all healthcare providers should be nonprofit??? is that your idea?

bc its dumb and is neither going to work nor happen..

what 22 year old college grad is going to shell out over 100k and 6 or whatever years to finish grad school and residencey... only to make a shitty paycheck?

[kingkilburn]

I'm not going to sit hear and give you an economics lesson. If you don't understand the difference that sounds like your problem.

[Matej]

Still excited about this.

Yes, it is not perfect, it is not even very good. However, it is a small baby step in the right direction, because the current system is terrible and something definitely needs to be done about it. This move will get something started, hopefully.

The real problem in America is not the quality of the services provided, it is the insurance system, which I believe needs a complete overhaul. Unfortunately, it will be long before that happens, because the insurance 'industry' (it is really sad that insurance was allowed to turn into an 'industry') has a huge influence.

[ranger240]

I'm not going to sit hear and give you an economics lesson. If you don't understand the difference that sounds like your problem.

econ lesson??? im not asking for an econ lesson, just trying to figure out what kind of skewed nonsensical perspective on economics your brain develops

your points suck and im simply shedding light upon that

if you cannot take criticism to your perspectives on healthcare or even worse cannot defend them, than they probably were rubbish to begin with

[Phlip]

yeah bud.. you have to elaborate on whatever you mean... so the recipient of healthcare pays something (what should that cover in your opinion?) and the provider gains nothing over what? a govt regulated paycheck?

thats a craptastic idea

i dont think you understand what profits are


ex:

a dr in private practice... they shouldnt operate beyond their break even point? i.e. the point in which all their expenses are covered? is that what you mean....

all healthcare providers should be nonprofit??? is that your idea?

bc its dumb and is neither going to work nor happen..

what 22 year old college grad is going to shell out over 100k and 6 or whatever years to finish grad school and residencey... only to make a shitty paycheck?
What he is getting at is that what is happening now is price gouging. As in, the service that is being provided to patients is NOT worth the money these individuals are being paid. At least that is what it seems he is saying in my mind.

I would call it borderline predatory, but looking at the way it works, and the major breakdown of communications between healthcare providers/servicers and the actual practices and how most of the time the financial responsibility falls on a patient who can ill afford the exorbitant costs, even if the fuckup was not their fault I will say that it is egregiously predatory.
Seriously, my moms works in billing for a lab company, and it seems that the doctors' offices just refuse to care when it was their mistake that drives a patient's costs way up. Five good friends and my sister work for 3 insurance companies (United Health Group, Aetna and Blue Cross Blue Shield), and they're more often than not hamstrung with what they're ALLOWED to release payment on, and if the doctor's office messes up and leaves the issue unresolved, the spoils go to an otherwise optionless patient, to the tune of up to tens of thousands sometimes.
Almost boils down to "what do I care, I still get paid the big check" to the casual onlooker.
THAT is a set of issues that needs to be addressed, like making health care and insurance actually affordable, in my opinion.

[kingkilburn]

The whole industry is designed to grab the money going between doctors, patience, and medical equipment suppliers.

They systematically under pay those who pay them to provide care and that forces doctors and suppliers to over charge. Who do you think ends up footing the bill for that?


I think the insurance should pay directly to the patient(like real auto insurance does). Let the patient take responsibility for paying for their care. This also helps the market to come to some kind of equilibrium as far as prices.

[Phlip]

I think the insurance should pay directly to the patient(like real auto insurance does). Let the patient take responsibility for paying for their care. This also helps the market to come to some kind of equilibrium as far as prices.
See, now... While that might work if people were honest, the fact of the matter is that we live in the real world. In auto insurance, there is the collateral that is your car -- as in getting it back from repair with that money -- or your continued legality in paying out to someone else or back to the insurance company in order to continue being insured and licensed. They can't hold your baby as collateral at the hospital because you've not paid your bill. That is an apples/pears argument, as I call them. Sure, we're discussing insurance, but two vastly different ideas of it.

[drftmark]

kingkilburn is just holding on by a straw with his "non-profit" argument that makes 0 sense.

On another note, while the insurances costs were getting high, it is not ALL of their fault.

Americans need to be held accountable as well. Go to the mall or something and see how many obese/fat people you see. Do you know how many problems come with being obese??? A SHITLOAD.

When at a bar, a bar tender can refuse to give someone drinks because they are already to drunk and don't need another one. America doesn't have a problem with this law, so why don't we do that with food as well?

Fat guy goes to McDonalds, he should get turned away for being to fat and he doesn't need it.

All I am trying to say is, people need to fucking work out and eat right to keep health care costs down, not just bitch about paying a lot for their disorders that could have been easily prevented if they weren't 100 pounds overweight.

[lewisfk]

^^U have a valid point! If being fat was an Olympic sport the US would win goal for the next century! The main reason health care cost so much is that everyone wants to make a buck! It starts with congress, their lobbyist and it trickles down to the insurance company, and to the hospital! Everything is marked up 10x the normal amount if not more! Americans are getting fucked by greed, yes being fat and eating like a slob plays a factor but it's a small one! In my eyes there are 3 main reasons healthcare cost so much!

1: Illegal immigration! If they can't afford insurance and there injured who picks up the tab? I remember watching CNN and they did a study on how many illegal immigrants did or did not have health insurance. The results were well above 95% who did not! When people without insurance go to the hospital its usually to the E.R., because they can't be denied treatment! When this happens they pass their medical bills/ cost to the community! Regardless the reasons of that E.R. visit everyone pays for it.

2: Predetermined Conditions! Regardless its morally unethical to say no to someone, or to deny insurance to someone because of a disease. This is a cut throat practice that allows the insurance companies to profit and piss down the backs of the consumers! If a farmer works his entire life and suddenly gets cancer, who is going to stand by him when his insurance company denies him coverage. Better yet, some insurance companies set a cap or a magical number for premiums! Once u hit that number your insurance coverage stops! It doesn't matter if you are cured, or you still need care! It's all about the cost, and having a person insured with cancer would cost the insurance company way too much money! I guess they care more about their profits, than a sick person!



3: My final reason health care cost so much is because of congress. Congress has the power to stop insurance companies from rapping us but they don't! Yes there is some campaigning for reform but most don't. It's because there being paid, via campaign funding, stocks, hell any way they can without raising a red flag! It's sad when you're a congressman and u say u represent the people, but your number one contributor it's the people! It's the insurance company or pharmaceutical company who liening your pocket with dead guys!



These are my opinions, why health care cost so much! These views are not from G. Beck's website nor Rush! It's all the hours I dedicated working in civilian as well as military hospitals! It's seeing the worst and hoping for the best!

[KA24DESOneThree]

We're raping ourselves with the insurance. It's our fault it costs so damn much.

Tear it all down. Start over.

[J3123MY]

Wow sir, u must be a fucking idiot to ignore the banter of the Republican Party! The first thing they said about the health care bill is that it would cut all the benefit like medicare and Soc. Sec! Senior citizens were linking up by the bus load to complain about this fact! It was the man talking point for half a fucking year! So how can u say there a failed program, yes it has flaws but what doesn't. Im sure NJ IS FUCKING FLAWLESS!

LOL. Medicare and Social Security are failed programs because they are bringing the country into a crazy amount of debt. Replacing two failing government program with another government program isn't gonna do shit. Medicare and social security are failed/ing programs because soon/right now America will/is not be able to afford it.

I am a libertarian, so I look at this health care bill as a huge violation of our constitutional rights. We are forced to have healthcare by the government, or we will be fined. I don't need a nanny state to tell me what I need or don't need. On top of this, it is a government run program which will most likely, like most government programs, be shitty. Money is a huge incentive.

[prodigyJJ]

we need a good coup. LOL. Seriously this obamacare is almost pointless when the rest of our government is fucked. I respect all of the opinions of the supporters of this bill, but respect mine and the opinions of the non-supporters also. It's narcissistic and self centered, but I don't want to pay for anyone else's shit. Seriously.

[kingkilburn]

When Bush was literally taking away our rights and spying on us every one was cool with it. Obama tries to give more to the citizens and people want a coup.

[prodigyJJ]

No. Everything was not cool when Bush was in office. I didn't vote for Bush. I voted independent (just like in the last ellection). I'm actually a fan of Ron Paul. People were complaining when Bush was in office. People are just plain f'n fed up now. It isn't specifically because it's Obama either. It is because a lot of people don't want anymore government. There is supposedly this great "change" coming, but the only change that is going on is money between pockets. It's that simple. It's just bad timing that Obama became the pres of a livid american people. I completely agree that healthcare does in fact need to be changed. I firmly believe that right now is the wrong time to do such a thing when the government has so many other things that are pressing.

On another tangent, and before this becomes a pro/con Obama discussion, here is my run down of recent politicians...

Clinton did well following the f'd up things that bush senior did even though he cheated on his wife. He got what he deserved

Bush should have been f'n booted from office and the country after 9/11, but instead he gets re-elected

Chaney is a criminal. How in the FUCK do you shoot a man in the face accident or not, and remain VP?

And Obama is also crooked. I would'nt have been so adamantly opposed to obama until he accepted a hollow peace prize.

[amdnivram]

seriously lol my balls accepted the peace prize before he did. He hasn't done nearly enough to even be considered. I pretty much agree with the post above me. The current social trends wont allow Obama to have a fair chance, but thats just how it goes, you can either handle it and change things or just try not to let it get worse. Its just really hard to change much when so much is going on.

[kingkilburn]

I like Ron Paul for Sec State.

I think Obama doesn't deserve some of the bad press he gets. Had he been elected in a better time socially and economically I think people would love.

I can say without a doubt in my mind that he is doing better than Mcain would be and it sucks to yet again pick between two candidates I don't really like.

[imotion s14]

the problem is the change rhetoric. But what has change that is really important? Economically Obama is doing EVERYTHING Bush did but on a much grander scale.

Bush came in during the bursting of the dot.com bubble, ran up deficits and stimulated the economy and interest rates were slashed to 1%. Obama comes in during the bursting of the housing bubble, ran up deficits to 1 trillion a year (and expected to be 1 trillion for the next 10 years), stimulated the economy even more, and dropped rates to ZERO PERCENT.

Nothing has changed, it's more of the same.

This health care reform isn't going to work they way they intend it and they know it. They don't give a shit whether it it works or not as long as it expands their power. The more power they have the more profitable being a politician is.

These politicians always make it seem that we're one act, one legislation, one regulation away from utopia. When the reform doesn't do it's intended job, I guaran-damn-tee you that they will be back to the drawing boards and they will say that the first bill didn't do enough and they will expand it further. With this government, failure means further expansion of power and they ultimate drag us down because we end up paying for their incompetence.

And people are afraid of the private business "raping" the people. :keke:

The more the plans fail, the more the planners plan.

[g6civcx]

99% of the people in this thread are talking about totally different things. The terminology is not being used consistently.

Just like I said. The administration should spend its first term educating the public. The average American is too ignorant to understand.

[kingkilburn]

The average American is too ignorant to understand.

The budget should be focused on fixing that. Maybe then most of the other social programs wont be needed.

[Omarius Maximus]

http://www.armscontrolcenter.org/policy/securityspending/articles/us_vs_world.gif

[imotion s14]

Just like I said. The administration should spend its first term educating the public. The average American is too ignorant to understand.

Such as teaching Americans to ignore basic math and just believe in fairies and unicorns because Dear Leader says so?

[kingkilburn]

Military spending is a whole other topic. It is very in depth and to simply say cut military spending is very ignorant to the way the military works.

If you want to discuss this I would suggest starting a new thread.

[prodigyJJ]

On a side note. To say that it is only Bush that was spying on us is B.S. As I recall Obama has extended the patriot act...

[imotion s14]

America really needs a 3rd party...

[racepar1]

All the doomsday "now we're all commy's" attitude is laughable. This thread cracks me up.

Those with the attitude that you are being ripped off and are paying for lazy people are just sad. If you have health insurance then you ought to know exactly how expensive is it. Public health is everyone's concern.

First of all I do not have healthcare provided to me. Nor can I afford to pay for healthcare on my own. Nor does my mommy and daddy carry me on their healthcare plans. Nor do I qualify for "Medi-Cal", which is state provided healthcare in Cali. I have been working and paying taxes since I was 16 fucking years old and I can't even see a doctor when I am sick. You all can fuck the hell off, that shit's not right. It is my personal belief that EVERY SINGLE U.S. citizen is ENTITLED to be able to see a doctor when they are sick. Those that DO work and are productive society members are ENTITLED to ACTUAL HEALTHCARE as well IMO. I am not for giving away things for free, but for fuck's sake we need to do something.

As for the CURRENT healthcare bill, I cannot say that I agree with all that I have heard. I also really am not very educated in it and I suspect that I would find more that I don't like about is if I took the time to look into it. I look at it as a step in the right direction, although somewhat mis-guided. The good thing is that it can, and likely will, be revised. We should all speak up about what we don't like, but let's not be greedy fucks.

[kingkilburn]

america really needs a 3rd party...

+1111111111111111111111

[Drift N Dragg]

I really dont like 2 things from this New Bill...

1: Getting Extra Taxed for someone else to have cheaper Health Insurance. It seems like every bill that passes is Geared at the Middle Class Worker.. Even those last year the House Of Reps, House of Senate, and Congress voted themselves a 50% Raise.. REALLY? ....... Really? As if they do not make enough with there Super High 5 Figure and Middle 6 Figure Salaries that they need 50% Raise.. Now Saying that, Wouldn't it have BEEN NICE to take that Raise money, given themselves like a 6% and put that other 42% into a healthcare pot? Hmmm sounds good to me..

2: Put me in Jail for not having Health Care? As if PEOPLE have enough on there plates... Now they are REQUIRED to have another Expensive Bill every month so that they will not go to Jail ... Wow...... Really? Not enough worries in the world, but let's just add another one on top of it... So they are telling me if I am 18 work at McDonald's for 32 hours a weeks ( under full time so that McDonalds does not have to give me health care option ) making 300 dollars NET Bi-Weekly if I am lucky.. That I now have to Purchase a Health care plan, Or I face Jail Time... Hmmmmm something fishy here...

If this has been stated before, oh well, I am just stating how I feel about this Bill after listening and reading information about it.

I am all for helping our fellow countrymen, but this is alittle extreme too me..

[jspaeth]

All the doomsday "now we're all commy's" attitude is laughable. This thread cracks me up.

Those with the attitude that you are being ripped off and are paying for lazy people are just sad. If you have health insurance then you ought to know exactly how expensive is it. Public health is everyone's concern.

First of all I do not have healthcare provided to me. Nor can I afford to pay for healthcare on my own. Nor does my mommy and daddy carry me on their healthcare plans. Nor do I qualify for "Medi-Cal", which is state provided healthcare in Cali. I have been working and paying taxes since I was 16 fucking years old and I can't even see a doctor when I am sick. You all can fuck the hell off, that shit's not right. It is my personal belief that EVERY SINGLE U.S. citizen is ENTITLED to be able to see a doctor when they are sick. Those that DO work and are productive society members are ENTITLED to ACTUAL HEALTHCARE as well IMO. I am not for giving away things for free, but for fuck's sake we need to do something.

As for the CURRENT healthcare bill, I cannot say that I agree with all that I have heard. I also really am not very educated in it and I suspect that I would find more that I don't like about is if I took the time to look into it. I look at it as a step in the right direction, although somewhat mis-guided. The good thing is that it can, and likely will, be revised. We should all speak up about what we don't like, but let's not be greedy fucks.

I would consider feeling a little bad for you, but then I look at your posts on here and realize that you have enough money to hook up and race cars extensively.


Start buying healthcare before you go spending your money on cars.


That kind of bullshit is what is wrong with this country.

Healthcare, food, and shelter FIRST.

Then you can buy your I-phone, hook up your car, get HD cable service, HBO, iPod, chrome rims, etc.


What bullshit

[lflkajfj12123]

I really dont like 2 things from this New Bill...

1: Getting Extra Taxed for someone else to have cheaper Health Insurance. It seems like every bill that passes is Geared at the Middle Class Worker.. Even those last year the House Of Reps, House of Senate, and Congress voted themselves a 50% Raise.. REALLY? ....... Really? As if they do not make enough with there Super High 5 Figure and Middle 6 Figure Salaries that they need 50% Raise.. Now Saying that, Wouldn't it have BEEN NICE to take that Raise money, given themselves like a 6% and put that other 42% into a healthcare pot? Hmmm sounds good to me..

2: Put me in Jail for not having Health Care? As if PEOPLE have enough on there plates... Now they are REQUIRED to have another Expensive Bill every month so that they will not go to Jail ... Wow...... Really? Not enough worries in the world, but let's just add another one on top of it... So they are telling me if I am 18 work at McDonald's for 32 hours a weeks ( under full time so that McDonalds does not have to give me health care option ) making 300 dollars NET Bi-Weekly if I am lucky.. That I now have to Purchase a Health care plan, Or I face Jail Time... Hmmmmm something fishy here...

If this has been stated before, oh well, I am just stating how I feel about this Bill after listening and reading information about it.

I am all for helping our fellow countrymen, but this is alittle extreme too me..

1. The amount required to fuel this healthcare plan is 10000x more money than the bonus of their salaries. Using that money for healthcare plan would be negligible. Also higher salaries will improve their work effort and probably turn their head away to lobbyists. Just my thoughts.

2. I don't recall hearing anything about jail time, but maybe i'm just misinformed? I was under the understanding that if you don't have health care you will be fined annually. Not put in jail?

[Matej]

It is silly to me how some Americans are so strongly opposed to free/cheaper healthcare. I still do not understand your logic.
If healthcare was free, you would all be taking advantage of it. Just like when you received your stimulus checks. I bet none of you refused to cash those in.

[Drift N Dragg]

It is silly to me how some Americans are so strongly opposed to free/cheaper healthcare. I still do not understand your logic.
If healthcare was free, you would all be taking advantage of it. Just like when you received your stimulus checks. I bet none of you refused to cash those in.

I did.. I put my Stimulus Check in a Saving account, because at the End of the year I was taxed on it.. Guess what.. I used it to pay back taxes.. so I gave them back what they gave me.

I think Its SILLY of SOME Americans to see this as a Free/Cheaper Health care, When its not, its only cheaper and/or free for the people that can not pay for it.. But the Rest of US that Bust our asses to get to the Pay grades and levels we did have to be Taxes Extra so that some Lazy ass can get free insurance on MY dime.. hmmm that is just sooooo Silly, isn't it

[jspaeth]

It is silly to me how some Americans are so strongly opposed to free/cheaper healthcare. I still do not understand your logic.
If healthcare was free, you would all be taking advantage of it. Just like when you received your stimulus checks. I bet none of you refused to cash those in.

Nothing is free, smart guy. It's costing someone else more, but I am sure that you are okay with that.

I did.. I put my Stimulus Check in a Saving account, because at the End of the year I was taxed on it.. Guess what.. I used it to pay back taxes.. so I gave them back what they gave me.

I think Its SILLY of SOME Americans to see this as a Free/Cheaper Health care, When its not, its only cheaper and/or free for the people that can not pay for it.. But the Rest of US that Bust our asses to get to the Pay grades and levels we did have to be Taxes Extra so that some Lazy ass can get free insurance on MY dime.. hmmm that is just sooooo Silly, isn't it

Amazes me how people are okay with letting other people pay for their shit

[prodigyJJ]

I agree with the 3rd party comment. We desperately need a strong enough 3rd party to shake things up. We also should really have yearly evals of our politicians. Why does middle America have to worry about job cuts when the people that we elect don't? Fuck them. They aren't doing their jobs in the first place. Seriously. Check out all of the pork barrel spending going on. It's ridiculous, and I'll be the first to say that a representative of my state is the worst one. I think the health insurance industry should be reformed. Not national health care...yet

[imotion s14]

It is silly to me how some Americans are so strongly opposed to free/cheaper healthcare. I still do not understand your logic.

I'm not oppose to cheaper healthcare, I'm just smart enough to know that this plan isn't going to make anything cheaper.

If healthcare was free you would all be taking advantage of it.

I'm smart enough to know there is no such thing.

Just like when you received your stimulus checks. I bet none of you refused to cash those in.

I paid about $5000 in income tax that year, and I got a dinky check back. Whoopee! Oh then since the stimuli was paid for with borrowed money, that means that it's gotta be paid back.. with interest! Double Awesome!

[Brian]

Thanks for the "HOPE" and "CHANGE".

Fucking wonderful.

[Agamemnon]

All the doomsday "now we're all commy's" attitude is laughable. This thread cracks me up.

Those with the attitude that you are being ripped off and are paying for lazy people are just sad. If you have health insurance then you ought to know exactly how expensive is it. Public health is everyone's concern.

First of all I do not have healthcare provided to me. Nor can I afford to pay for healthcare on my own. Nor does my mommy and daddy carry me on their healthcare plans. Nor do I qualify for "Medi-Cal", which is state provided healthcare in Cali. I have been working and paying taxes since I was 16 fucking years old and I can't even see a doctor when I am sick. You all can fuck the hell off, that shit's not right. It is my personal belief that EVERY SINGLE U.S. citizen is ENTITLED to be able to see a doctor when they are sick. Those that DO work and are productive society members are ENTITLED to ACTUAL HEALTHCARE as well IMO. I am not for giving away things for free, but for fuck's sake we need to do something.

As for the CURRENT healthcare bill, I cannot say that I agree with all that I have heard. I also really am not very educated in it and I suspect that I would find more that I don't like about is if I took the time to look into it. I look at it as a step in the right direction, although somewhat mis-guided. The good thing is that it can, and likely will, be revised. We should all speak up about what we don't like, but let's not be greedy fucks.
Can you tell me wher exactly in the constitution that says healthcare is guaranteed?

You sir, are exactly what is wrong with America.

Gimme gimme gimme.

Hey, guess what hotshot, if you can afford health insurance, then I guess you need to get a better job to help pay for it.

[racepar1]

I would consider feeling a little bad for you, but then I look at your posts on here and realize that you have enough money to hook up and race cars extensively.


Start buying healthcare before you go spending your money on cars.


That kind of bullshit is what is wrong with this country.

Healthcare, food, and shelter FIRST.

Then you can buy your I-phone, hook up your car, get HD cable service, HBO, iPod, chrome rims, etc.


What bullshit

You are wrong. I USED to be able to afford to go racing and play with cars. I also USED to be able to afford healthcare. I don't even have a cellphone at the moment much less anything you listed above.

Can you tell me wher exactly in the constitution that says healthcare is guaranteed?

You sir, are exactly what is wrong with America.

Gimme gimme gimme.

Hey, guess what hotshot, if you can afford health insurance, then I guess you need to get a better job to help pay for it.

I'm not asking for anything for free. I'm asking to be helped when I need it since my god damn tax money has been helping everyone else for my whole life. Nothing is free. In the end it would STILL be MY tax money paying for MY healthcare. How the fuck is that free???

There are far too many people in this country living off state and federal programs like food stamps and welfare. If you wanna be worried about people getting shit for free why don't we turn our attention to the people that are REALLY working the god damn system.

I think that it's YOU that's the hotshot. If you're so worried about what I am doing what's your story hotshot? Mommy and daddy paid for you to go to a nice college and you picked a nice safe career? Either that or you're still living at home feeding off mommy and daddy's health insurance. Some of us prefer the hard route, to pursue our dreams. It is the people like us that made this country what it is. If I am what is wrong with this country in your eyes then you either don't have a clue what you are talking about or it is actually you that are wrong...

[Agamemnon]

I'm not asking for anything for free. I'm asking to be helped when I need it since my god damn tax money has been helping everyone else for my whole life. Nothing is free. In the end it would STILL be MY tax money paying for MY healthcare. How the fuck is that free???
I never said anything about being free. Do you honostly think that because you pay your taxes that you should be able to just strut in to any hospital, say "fix me now, because I pay taxes!" and walk out without paying cent? If you feel this way, then I suggest you move on up north to Canada, where even they hate their medical care.


I think that it's YOU that's the hotshot. If you're so worried about what I am doing what's your story hotshot? Mommy and daddy paid for you to go to a nice college and you picked a nice safe career? Either that or you're still living at home feeding off mommy and daddy's health insurance. Some of us prefer the hard route, to pursue our dreams. It is the people like us that made this country what it is. If I am what is wrong with this country in your eyes then you either don't have a clue what you are talking about or it is actually you that are wrong...Yes, I do think I'm a hotshot. I took a 1 year of college that I paid for, the realized it wasn't for me and dropped out before I could really get myself in debt. After that I moved out, got a decent paying job and worked my ass off. After realizing that my current location would never pay the dividends that I wanted, I packed my belongings and moved two states away in a city I knew nothing about or had any ties with. After years of hard work and keeping focus on my goals, I was able to make a great salary, and great home, and great life for myself.

So just because you think your life is hard(it's hard because of the life decisions you made BTW), don't assume that others aren't or haven't gone through the same shit.

And PS- This is what I meant to sayHey, guess what hotshot, if you can't afford health insurance, then I guess you need to get a better job to help pay for it. I still stand behind this comment. If you cant afford health insurance, then get a better paying job. If you are making pennies but love what you do in life, then you need to take a good hard look at your life and determine what is more important to you.

[rb26man]

Thanks for the "HOPE" and "CHANGE".

Fucking wonderful.

lol...but on a side note...look at the countries that offer free healthcare and their economies...and then u look at us in which we pay for it and still are in a hole...hmmm something seems fisshy

[kingkilburn]

Just because Canada has social medicine and we may also have social medicine does NOT mean they have to be the same system.

[racepar1]

I never said anything about being free. Do you honostly think that because you pay your taxes that you should be able to just strut in to any hospital, say "fix me now, because I pay taxes!" and walk out without paying cent? If you feel this way, then I suggest you move on up north to Canada, where even they hate their medical care.

Yes I do feel that way. I could care less if you like it. I'm not asking for god's fucking gift to medicine to magically cure all my problems. I also feel that if you can reasonably afford healthcare that you should pay for it yourself. I also believe that those that do not work and contribute to society are not necessarily obligated to at least most benefits. I am all for helping those that are productive society members. Not everyone can sit pretty and make the big bucks, certainly not starting out. If that was the case who would do all those minimum wage shitty ass jobs that HAVE to be done? Or do the people that do the crap that the rest of us don't want to not deserve to at least be healthy?

Yes, I do think I'm a hotshot. I took a 1 year of college that I paid for, the realized it wasn't for me and dropped out before I could really get myself in debt. After that I moved out, got a decent paying job and worked my ass off. After realizing that my current location would never pay the dividends that I wanted, I packed my belongings and moved two states away in a city I knew nothing about or had any ties with. After years of hard work and keeping focus on my goals, I was able to make a great salary, and great home, and great life for myself.

So just because you think your life is hard(it's hard because of the life decisions you made BTW), don't assume that others aren't or haven't gone through the same shit.

And PS- This is what I meant to say I still stand behind this comment. If you cant afford health insurance, then get a better paying job. If you are making pennies but love what you do in life, then you need to take a good hard look at your life and determine what is more important to you.

Judging by your statement above you should know exactly where I am at because you have been there. Telling me basically "get a better job bum" is pretty fucking hypocritical judging by your story. How much could YOU have used a little help in those down times??? No need to worry about little old me. I'll make it, I have no doubt about that.

[Agamemnon]

Judging by your statement above you should know exactly where I am at because you have been there. Telling me basically "get a better job bum" is pretty fucking hypocritical judging by your story. How much could YOU have used a little help in those down times??? No need to worry about little old me. I'll make it, I have no doubt about that.
How the hell am I being a hypocrite? I practiced what I preach. Even when I was struggling, I always was able to afford health insurance. Not because I was rich, or because I had connections, but because I made specific decisions that ensured a constant health coverage.

Yes I could've used help, but refused it. Not accepting handouts made me a better person. It tought me to always rely on myself and use the tools that I gained to come out on top.

I have no doubt that you will succeed in life. But this is America. A free capitalist society that gives everyone a chance to make more of themselves. So sorry if I don't feel like it's Uncle Sam's responsibility to wipe the less fortunates ass.

[jspaeth]

lol...but on a side note...look at the countries that offer free healthcare and their economies...and then u look at us in which we pay for it and still are in a hole...hmmm something seems fisshy


One of the main reasons we ARE in a hole is because the government continues to spend, spends, spend and print more money.

...for such awesome programs as Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security.

All of which are wealth redistribution.

Even SS, everyone pays the same "percentage," but then when it comes time to reap the benefits, everyone recieves essentially the same.

Again, another example of successful people paying more to get LESS.

THAT is why our country is going down the tubes

[imotion s14]

Social Security is more of a ponzi scheme. ;)

[racepar1]

I have no doubt that you will succeed in life. But this is America. A free capitalist society that gives everyone a chance to make more of themselves. So sorry if I don't feel like it's Uncle Sam's responsibility to wipe the less fortunates ass.

Nobody is asing to have their ass wiped. All people want is an affordable healthcare solution. Public health is everyone's concern. One of those "less fortuante asses" could get sick and cause an epidemic like the H1N1 thing, although the H1N1 thing was mostly overhyped bullshit. The people that are working for mimimum wage are absolutely necessary to keep this country afloat. Without them we couldn't exist. Those people deserve to be able to go to the doctor too. I honestly agree on the "no free handouts" attitude of yours on everything but healthcare. That's where I draw the line.

[racepar1]

One of the main reasons we ARE in a hole is because the government continues to spend, spends, spend and print more money.

...for such awesome programs as Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security.

All of which are wealth redistribution.

Even SS, everyone pays the same "percentage," but then when it comes time to reap the benefits, everyone recieves essentially the same.

Again, another example of successful people paying more to get LESS.

THAT is why our country is going down the tubes

The programs you listed above are far from the villans you make them out to be. Medicare, medicaid, and social security are all useful programs. They're just very poorly run like every other government program. If you wanna make up some scapegoat programs I would hope you could do better then that.

The REAL problem with this country is our own paranoia. The lawyers run this country and THAT is why we're fucked. America hasn't been the land of the free for decades. The lawyers also encourage the public to no longer take responsibility for their own actions. Fall and hurt yourself because you tripped on a pothole while you were yaking on the cellphone? It's not your fault, it's the city's, you should sue them... Our paranoia has also extended to our children. People are too afraid to let their kids just go out and play anymore. Now we have "playdates" and video games instead of a park, some friends, and some toys. Our children are over cottled and under-equipped to go out and survive on their own. It is our own SOCIETY that is fucking this country, not government.

[kingkilburn]

The programs that have been talked about that are supposed to be so bad are only going so poorly now because of the number recipients vs the number of tax payers paying in. When SS was enacted there were far more paying in than receiving benefits. With all the baby boomers dieing off and the Executive Office's constant borrowing from it the program is near its breaking point.

I think the largest problems with the three programs are that illegal immigrants(who did not pay in) are eligible for benefits and the government continues to steal the dividends from our payments into them.

There is no reason the systems(or better systems with the same goals) can't work. The only limiter on the programs is whether or not the citizens want them.