Old ARP studs lube question

[yabeet]

I put in ARP studs in my S14 SR last year and I now have the head off again.

Of course thanks to the chain guides you have to take out the studs before pulling the head.
Now I want to put them back in, I dont have anymore of that ARP lube that you use when installing, people are recommending to use loc-tite.

My q is after cleaning my studs, what about all the lube left in the threads that there is no way I could clean out? Just leave it there and I shouldnt be bothered?

Thanks... unusual question I know...

[jspaeth]

Loc-tite!?!?!?!?

Isn't that the exact opposite of what you want to do?

[yabeet]

Thats what Ive been reading online searching.... why wouldnt you want to secure your studs more?

[Z U L8R]

loc-tite is retarded! who told you this? top fuel drag racers that make 1,000hp per cylinder? lol

whoever told you that, you should never ever ever let them work on your car or ask them for advice ever again....

on the threads that go in the block, A. make sure the threads in the block are clean, B. then lube the threads on the bottom of the studs with engine oil and make sure there's not too much or oil in the hole before you start screwing them in there or it'll compress and crack the block as you're forcing the stud to bottom out.

basically bottom out the stud HAND TIGHT, like pinky forefinger tight, basically just touch the bottom and that's it. if you crank that stud in the block you will strip the block and have much bigger problems.

make sure you lube the bottom of the nut and both sides of the washer. you want the nut to tighten up smoothly, not creak, pop, or squeak at you.

you can get the arp moly lube from summit or arp. the old sr studs irrc are 80 ft lbs. which you would do in sequence. i usually do 25 in sequence then 45 in sequence then 80 in sequence. And don't go slowly like 77........78......79......80, just turn and stop at 80 if it takes you more than 5 seconds to reach 80 on your last pass then you're doing it too slow.

you should call arp and ask them for the part number that corresponds with your motor, then ask them what the torque spec is with the moly and what the torque spec would be with engine oil.

after a couple heat cycles or 100 miles whatever comes first you should retorque the head bolts. just break it loose, then retorque it, one by one in order. you may notice it took you 90 degrees to break it loose, then 180 degrees to get back to 80 ft lbs or whatever you torqued it too. then you'll see why i told you to do this.

you should do this before you crank up the boost then you'll be fine in this area.

first thing's first , you wanna know what you need to torque your studs to. too little and you'll lift the head under boost, too much and you'll warp your cylinders.

be patient and do it right the first time. i know it's a pain in the ass to take the cams out again so you can get to the head bolts to retorque them, but it's worth it.

some people never retorque them and don't have problems, some people don't retorque them and do. if you retorque them you can be assured that this won't be an issue later on. the extra work is worth the peace of mind.

Dave

[eklips3]

my machinist told me that if you are using studs then its not necessary to re-torque. only if you have head bolts.

but to answer the question regarding the thread, you can lube it with engine oil if you dont have the moly lube. the final torquing numbers bill be + or - 15 ft/lbs if i recall correctly.

[Z U L8R]

exactly what your machinist told you, is exactly the opposite of what my machinist told me......not trying to one up you, that's not my intention, but if you google

Hoyt Grimes or Grimes twister engines
(first link that comes up if you search "Hoyt Grimes")
http://www.georgiadragracing.com/photos/persons/person-grimeshoyt.html

you'll find more than just an address and phone number. check out the link

NHRA Hall of Famer, set land speed records, "Grandaddy of drag racing" , First to ever flip a car nose over nose (sux it had to be him lol), one of the major players when "the big three" switched from carb to fuel injection, did machine work for mazda on the 4 rotor project, has gm sending them engines to find out what's wrong and what they could do to make them better........just sayin...when i talk to him....i don't talk...i listen :D

knowing what i know, and seeing what Hoyt/Garry know and do every day for 2 years, working at a performance shop 50 feet from their machine shop....i trust what they say, and they recommend head studs get retorqued after a couple heat cycles on any performance engine.

i'll take that to the bank

my .02

Dave

[Z U L8R]

anyone running 17+ psi that didn't retorque your head studs, some of you may be fine, but some of you......if you see any soot (carbon deposits) on your radiator cap or in your coolant....each one of those black dots = an "i told ya so" :D

the idea & name of the game is to be proactive...not reactive. better to be safe and overly cautious and not have problems, than to be careless, lazy, or cheap and have to start all over again because of it...

just sayin..

Dave

[army240]

the idea & name of the game is to be proactive...not reactive. better to be safe and overly cautious and not have problems, than to be careless, lazy, or cheap and have to start all over again because of it...

just sayin..

Dave


Damn! I like how you think! This is exactly the difference with somebody who care about his stuff and someone who takes stupid chances. Yeah, it's a pain in the ass to take off the cams and retorque the headbolt, but it's so longer to get a headjob or headgasket job or any other related job that would be caused by lazyness.

Frank

[codyace]

I've never retorqued any of the engines I've been a part of, both DET or DE-T. No issues. Progressive torque by incriments of 10, with any quality moly lube. Final torque of 85 ftlbs.

[yabeet]

Well anyways I reused my set of ARP studs with the ARP lube [MOPAC Calgary] anyways I went 20/40/60 then on 80 the second one snapped....



the old sr studs irrc are 80 ft lbs. which you would do in sequence. i usually do 25 in sequence then 45 in sequence then 80 in sequence. And don't go slowly like 77........78......79......80, just turn and stop at 80 if it takes you more than 5 seconds to reach 80 on your last pass then you're doing it too slow.



Its actually 85, but I left it at 80 the first time around, beat the shit out of it on a track day and no problems.
I was torqueing it too slow... lesson learned I guess... so you turn the torque wrench somewhat quicker?

I was glad I got the broken end out, it snapped in the middle fyi.

[Z U L8R]

lol that sux, at least it didn't snap below the deck of the block.....you'd go through many diamond tipped drill bits trying to tap it for an extractor...

and that's exactly the reason i said not to torque it slowly, i seen that happen before so i wanted to warn ya.

sorry to hear bout that.

Dave

[yabeet]

It actually broke below the block, but becasue I only finger tightened the studs in, it wasnt too much fo a hassle to get it out... thanks for the tips btw Dave.

[codyace]

and that's exactly the reason i said not to torque it slowly, i seen that happen before so i wanted to warn ya.

Oh for sure. It ends up twisting more than clamping. Seems like Yabeet really lucked out huh! I don't have that kind of good luck lol

[R33E8]

You can use brake parts cleaner to clean it up quick and easy.. Also, if you need some moly lube just check out your local machine shop.. They should have some and might even give it to you for free.. They are only like $1 anyways, but the price of shipping usually sucks..

[jspaeth]

When I did my ARPs, I did them in increments of 30-60-85 or something like that.


Then, I drove the care for ~200 miles, and retorqued them.


Let me tell you, they DID require an extra half turn or so to get them back to 80 ft-lbs.

ARP Tech support recommends reqtorquing them btw.

[Z U L8R]

It actually broke below the block, but becasue I only finger tightened the studs in, it wasnt too much fo a hassle to get it out... thanks for the tips btw Dave.

np brotha, glad i could help

When I did my ARPs, I did them in increments of 30-60-85 or something like that.


Then, I drove the care for ~200 miles, and retorqued them.


Let me tell you, they DID require an extra half turn or so to get them back to 80 ft-lbs.

ARP Tech support recommends reqtorquing them btw.

yessir, gj

Dave :D

[renegade_ewok]

So damn glad I found this thread....

Dropping my head back on as soon as its back from the machine shop. Ill see if they require another quarter turn to torque, but from the sound of it, thats exactly whats gonna happen.

What would be the problems without retorquing? Lifting the head? I think thats what happened to my friend the other week... New motor, cranked the 3076rle to 18 psi and got massive blow through to the water jackets and the coolant shot everywhere. Tear down coming to verify...

[Z U L8R]

What would be the problems without retorquing? Lifting the head?

correct :D


yabeet: lol i'm just trying to imagine how you would have gotten that broken bottom out of your block had you put lock-tite on it >_<

mental picture of you pulling the head off as fast as you can, freaking out, trying to get it out before it fully set >_<

that woulda freakin sucked lol

Dave;)

[yabeet]

correct :D


yabeet: lol i'm just trying to imagine how you would have gotten that broken bottom out of your block had you put lock-tite on it >_<

mental picture of you pulling the head off as fast as you can, freaking out, trying to get it out before it fully set >_<

that woulda freakin sucked lol

Dave;)

Lol well actually with my new ARP set they have an instruction paper that if you used loctite what to do.... as soon as it snapped, I went for a walk outsdie and I dont even know what I was doing just walking in circles with my head down all p!ssed off. I went back in the house and my gf said," What were you looking for out there?" :Ownedd:

Got the new studs and I went 25-55-85 as ARP recommends 3 steps. I dont remember reading that from my old box though. Did it nice and quick this time round, no ultra slow turning from me.

[Z U L8R]

ok i was just looking at arp head studs for my 2j and they have regular arp head studs with 12pt nuts and the same thing but "u-cut" aka undercut.

the undercuts basically stretch more on both ends of the stud which creates a more equal clamp on the head gasket.......however passed 15psi they recommend regular arp head studs because the added stretch may cause the head to lift thus blowing the headgasket and basically cancelling out the whole reason you got arp head studs...lol

therefore i'm not going undercut, because A the regular ones are cheaper, and B i'm gonna be running 2324324324242 psi of boost.

ANOTHER THING TO DULY NOTE, and this is taken directly from arp's website and online catalog

HEAD STUDS vs. BOLTS...
A TECHNICAL DISCUSSION

"ARP’s factory Tech Representatives are often asked which
is better, cylinder head studs or bolts. The answer, invariably,
depends on the installation. On many street-driven vehicles,
where master cylinders and other items protrude into the engine
compartment, it’s probably necessary to use head bolts so that
the cylinder heads can be removed with the engine in the car.
For most applications, however, studs are recommended.
And for good reason. Using studs will make it much easier to
assemble an engine (especially a racing powerplant which must
be serviced frequently and quickly!) with the cylinder head and
gasket assured of proper alignment.
Studs also provide more accurate and consistent torque
loading. Here’s why. When you use bolts to secure the head,
the fastener is actually being “twisted” while it’s being torqued
to the proper reading. Accordingly, the bolt is reacting to two
different forces simultaneously. A stud should be installed in
a “relaxed” mode – never crank it in tightly using a jammed
nut.
If everything is right, the stud should be installed finger tight.
Then, when applying torque to the nut, the stud will stretch
only on the vertical axis. Remember, an undercut shorter stud
will have a rate similar to a longer, standard shank stud. This
provides a more even clamping force on the head. Because the
head gasket will compress upon initial torquing, make sure studs
and bolts are re-torqued after the engine has been run."

straight from the horses mouth.

RETORQUE YOUR ARP STUDS AFTER THE ENGINE HAS BEEN RUN (ie a couple heat cycles)

Dave

[Z U L8R]

that was page 36 of the online catalog

Dave

[midnight_rex]

u just need to use a moly lube (which is a element on the periodic table). helps lube metals and decreases gouging. never use loc-tite.

[jspaeth]

I can't imagine why anyone would use loc-tite....anyway, I followed what Dave said (and what is said in the directions) and never had any problem.....i DID retorque after about 300 miles of pretty calm driving.


J

[eklips3]

alright so with re-torquing after driving the car for a few miles .. do you losen the studs first or just re-torque them without losening ?

[jspaeth]

alright so with re-torquing after driving the car for a few miles .. do you losen the studs first or just re-torque them without losening ?

You absolutely have to crack them loose first, then retorque

[Z U L8R]

start from the middle and work your way out, break the nut loose, then torque it back to 80ft lb or whatever the spec is for your stud, then move on to the next, working your way outwards until they're all done.

and again, don't go super slow when torquing it. it should take you 2-3 seconds or less to get to your torque spec.

Dave

[renegade_ewok]

I mean, I might be asking arbitrary shit here... but are you advocating going in the torque order to retorque or release the entire head and THEN retorque?

Like... undo 1, retorque 1, undo 2, retorque 2 vs. undo 1,2,3, etc then retorque 1, retorque 2, etc...

[Z U L8R]

break 1 loose, then torque it back to the final torque spec given for your stud

then go to 2, break it loose, then torque it back to spec

then go to 3, etc etc

and you'll notice it takes you 180 degress to break the nut loose but 360 to get it back to the torque spec on some of em. sometimes 2 turns.

the main thing is, if you're real close to your final torque spec, then you feel it get easy again, then you take another go at it and it gets close...then gets easy again...that stud's gonna break before you get to your final torque spec unless you give it a really quick torque that last one. if you try to do it fast and don't hit your torque spec then it's just gonna keep stretching and stretching until it breaks, and you need a new one.

they do that when you torque it all slow n stuff. you can't take 10 seconds to go from 45 ft lb on your second pass to 80 ft lb. it should probably take you 2 90 degree cranks to get to your 80 mark, and 2 to 3 seconds TOPS. it usually takes me 1-2 seconds......

i also have the mac daddy torque wrenchs tho...
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc313/Z_U_L8R/041.jpg

and my big MFing sockets that will never break a bolt loose....but are used to press out many many wheel bearings :D

those are the best freakin torque wrenchs. snap-on tech wrenchs.

they do inch lb, foot lb, newton meters, and ANGLE.....

but it's uber bad ass cause lets say you wanna do like 90 degrees....you can turn it like 4 degrees, then ratchet it back, then go 25 degrees, then ratchet it back, then go 40 degrees, etc etc and it'll add it all up until you get to your final 90 degrees, then it'll vibrate when you're close, and beep when you reach your setting.

being able to do degrees in increments makes life sooo much easier.

i wanna say they're around $400-500 for each, but man they're so frickin worth it. i got mine from my snap-on guy for $800 for both since i wanted them both.

the 3/8" goes i think from 5 to 120 ft lb, and the 1/2" goes i think from 20 to 250 if i recall correctly....however if you go higher than 250 it'll still show you what it reads cause i know i was cranking the shit out of a rotary 2 1/8" flywheel nut......i was giving it all she's got captain :D and i passed 250 and it told me what i did, i wanna say i got it to like 280 something

i show you my big box and my roll cart, just cause...

pay no attention to the big mess on my tool box that day lol...
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc313/Z_U_L8R/044.jpg
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc313/Z_U_L8R/043.jpg

and the new hotness matco muscle kart 440 they just came out with.
i got 3 more drawers coming to go under the first two, so it's gonna be drawers all the way down, but i liked how it has peg board with bunjee's all on the sides of the cabinets and all that.....

no lie, i got about $200 worth of various magnets on there lol, i love magnets, so much easier to grab your everyday necessities...

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc313/Z_U_L8R/047-1.jpg
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc313/Z_U_L8R/036-1.jpg
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc313/Z_U_L8R/038-1.jpg

oh yes I did find a way to completely whore out my tools on an ARP stud thread :D

it's rare you get to brag about your tools, especially when you have more equity in your tool box than your house lol, but you gotta pay to play and sometimes you're only as good as your tools.....especially when it comes to diagnostics and productivity....

the stickers are not rice either, they actually have a purpose......too bad it's for other's benefit more than my own since i know where everything is.....it's for when someone needs to use one of your tools mainly..... like I'll be working on a car "Dave where's your torque wrench?" and instead of saying "fourth long drawer down in my big box second one from the bottom bla bla bla" , i just say "it's in my big box, AEM drawer" done.

but anywho, sorry for getting off topic :P

hope that helps.

Dave